Jesus Didn't Satisfy God's Wrath: Part One

[shellz641]

I think the Wrath of God is satisfied FOR ALL WHO BELIEVE IN JESUS AND FOLLOW JESUS. God's wrath is not satisfied when it comes to those who do not believe that Jesus died for their sins. However, the followers of Jesus must take up their cross of inevitable persecution and suffering in order to spread the Truth of the Gospel.

[NOLongeraDREAMER]

I hope the wrath of God never falls on anyone. 

[ccwonder23]

in the old Hebrew scriptures it says the punishment for all sin was death. Jesus lived a sinless life and then died for us on the cross. By doing so he took our punishment of Death for us so that all who believe might be saved and not go to hell. Now while there is scripture that says you can lose your salvation i think this refers to those who leave the faith. if you leave the faith you leave your salvation. We cannot lose our salvation but we can give it up. That's what it means

[shellz641]

@ccwonder23 They're not talking about physical death. They mean spiritual death which is said to be even more painful and eternal.

[bighilly74]

For the Elect there is no more wrath

[jjmeyer79]

Jesus satisfied the wrath of God for those who are justified. To those in hell, their sins are obviously not atoned for. Not only do you misrepresent certain preachers, you make a better case for a limited atonement at they hold to. You have some real problems with your theology bud.

[lieberR1]

Jesus said, "It is finished."

Mercy is when the just God dies for the unjust sinner. Mercy is in the free gift of salvation. Galatians 2:20: "I have been crucified with Christ," couldn't be clearer. My sin died in Christ, and I was a child of God even before conversion (John 11:52)

you said Christ didn't buy anything, read 1 Cor 6:20. Your view of atonement is not biblical

The wrath of God is satisfied when it comes to believers

You are arguing against universalism, not calvinism.

[hoosfan77]

I feel like this view of the atonement really has no need for Christ and the cross. If God can simply turn away from our sins and ignore them, why is Jesus on the cross? Why must God as man suffer and die?

[droptozro]

@hoosfan77

Because a sacrifice still had to be made for forgiveness of sins. Scripture teaches that blood must be spilled for the forgiveness of sins, and Christ being the perfect sacrifice--was THE LAST sacrifice(this is the reason the new covenant, we do not still make blood sacrifices yearly). He suffered in man's hands, as God lifted His hand of protection from Jesus and delivered Him unto wicked men to be stricken, beaten, and crucified. The spotless lamb takes away sins of the world.

[blessedwithoutmeasur]

yes hw saved us from the wrath to come romans 5 19 he had to drink our wrath sin sickness he had to because you can't get to God only through Jesus

like I said read romans 5:17-21 wrath ia agaist the wicked not the saints

[blessedwithoutmeasur]

hebrew 10:10 by the which we are santifiedthrough the offering of the body of JesusChrist once for all, talkng a bout old covent commands laws rituals can never take sin away, took out the first that the second covent would be established. Blood of buls and goats on the alter , then he said with those sacrifieces could never take away sin but Jesus went in once for all ONE acrifiece for sins ever perfected them that are sacrifiece for sins sat down on the right hand of God , It is FINISHED

[jpc08109]

this is nutty

[Brucev7]

Jesus died for all. God is patient towards you not wanting that anyone should perish. 1 John 2:2, Rom 5:18, Joh 12:32, 2 Corinthians 5:14, Colossians 1:19-20, 1 Timothy 2:3-6, 1 Timothy 4:9-10, Hebrews 2:9, 2 Pet 3:9, 1 Tim 2:4.

[FemmeFemmeFemme]

This is a needed and very helpful teaching. Thank you for this. I think generally some want to show the longsuffering, merciful nature of The Most High, however, we must be careful to do this according to scripture, lest we become guilty of compromising the WHOLE TRUTH. May God Bless & Keep you.

[sjandrews32]

Isaiah 53 states that Jesus died for His people. Jesus did not absorb the wrath of the wicked and disbelievers, but for the elect alone. Only the elect are the ones who would believe and therefore be justified from God's wrath anyway. That's why the cup of wrath is still full and it will be poured out on the day of wrath. Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God, and we are not destined for wrath, but for salvation. The wrath of God for the elect is satisfied and absorbed.

[TrustinJC]

Salvation is not guarenteed at the point of conversion.

1 Peter 1: 5 God is protecting you until you recieve this salvation, which is ready to be revealed on the last day for all to see.

So it is in th last day that we learn if we are or are not saved. So while we have the promise of salvation, we must run the race and obey His commands in order to recieve it.

1 Peter 1: 13 tells us we are to look forward to salvation. So it is something not yet recieved.

[Brucev7]

@TrustinJC A believer is sealed unto actual salvation by the Holy Spirit.

[MrPeaceKey]

I agree with you. This is needed.

It is also my understanding that God has emotions and can be unhappy.

However, he cannot suffer in the sense of payment for unrighteousness.

Christ suffered for us as a human, not as God.

So it was illogical and impossible for him to make a full payment for our sins.

Our sins have been removed and forgotten, but we fall back under the judgment of God if we turn away from Him because a complete payment was not made.

Right?

Bible and Finney.

[bibletheology]

I agree with you!

[MrPeaceKey]

The wages of sin is death.

What kind of death?

There is only a handfull who have not died physically, so all of us who do end up in the grave is because of sin?

Dead in disobedience and sin.

Sting of death was removed, but not death.

Christians, in some sense, no longer die.

Physical death is not a problem for a Christian, but rather a blessing.

[psk6565]

Acts 20:28 "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

Catherine Booth got it wrong. Christ purchased me with His blood

[ElasticGiraffe]

God did purchase you with Christ's blood, and me also. But the idea that God's wrath has been appeased does not follow from the Acts passage. Christ did not purchase us from God. God purchased us from Satan, the ruler of this world and our former master. We stopped being slaves to sin and started being slaves of God in Christ our Savior.

[psk6565]

Matthew 20:22-23 You need to explain what you think this cup is b/c in your explanation (if you believe it be a cup of wrath) you seem to, maybe by mistake, make Jesus a liar. You basically say that Jesus didnt know what He was talking about b/c the disciples never drank the cup and neither did He. Washer, Sproul, Macarthar never suggest God's wrath is satified toward those that will end up in hell, only for the elect is it satified. God;s wrath is satisfied for those whom He died for.

[Malachi811]

...a couple times this sweating blood issue has come up. This is an actual condition people can suffer when under extreme strain or stress. Jesus Christ, with a body of flesh, was facing an excruciating death. He was about to be executed. He was about to be the spotless lamb for an entire world of sinners. i could never fathom the weight of that on an infinite mind and heart.

[CASSMAN777]

Jesus was our PROPITIATION (Rom 3:24,25) the word propitiation means APPEASMENT or SATISFACTION.

What do you mean Christ didn't recieve the wrath of God? The Bible says that the wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23), since Christ died, doesn't that mean he recieved the wrath of God.

Also in Isaiah 53:10 "It pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put His soul to grief...He shall see the Labor in His soul and be SATISFIED."

See that Morrell, God was SATISFIED!!!

[bibletheology]

Yes the atonement was a propitiation or a satisfaction. The atonement satisfied the purpose of our penalty, so now our penalty could be remitted. The atonement satisfied the purpose of God's wrath, so now God can set aside His wrath. Public justice is the purpose for penalty. The atonement accomplishes what our penalty could have accomplished, so now we can have the remission of sins.

God was satisfied in the atonement because now He can pardon sinners by setting aside their penalty.

[bibletheology]

Under the government of God, the penalty of the law serves a purpose. It upholds the law, it maintains the authority and influence of the law, it reveals the Rulers regard for His law, it discourages others, it protects the universe, etc. Our penalty can only be remitted if the purpose of our penalty is satisfied by an atonement.

[CASSMAN777]

But this is not what you were saying. You clearly said that "Jesus did not actually satisfy God's wrath." your comment contradicts what you said in the video and the title of your video.

Are you saying that Jesus didn't actually come to save you, he actually came to give you the ability to save yourself? Mat 1:21 says that Jesus will come to actually SAVE his people, not allow them to save themselves.

Is this what you are saying? Or am I misunderstanding you?

[gomitch2]

Thank you for making this for us. It's a great service for us and I will sure review, save, and re-use it in my classes. Thanks a lot. Mitch

[TheSwordOfTheWord]

so what then was the point of Christ's death on the cross?

[1689Baptist]

Thats just it they have no point

[TheSwordOfTheWord]

I'm not calling the brother a liar mind you nor am I disagreeing. As the proverbs says he that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is a shame and a folly. But I would like to know if Jesus didn't satisfy the wrath of God or if there was no substitutionary atonement what was the point of Chirst dying on the cross?

[RefutingCalvinism]

Did you watch Part Two of this series? It explains what the atonement was and why the atonement was necessary. Because of the atonement, God can turn away from His wrath when sinners repent. The atonement is a replacement for our penalty, it is a substitute for our punishment.

[RefutingCalvinism]

Christ died to provide a substitute for the penalty of the law, Christ died to provide a replacement for our punishment, Christ died so that God could turn from His wrath, remit our penalty, withhold our punishment, if we are converted.

[TheSwordOfTheWord]

No I didn't have time to watch it but I'll have to when I get off work.

[bibletheology]

Retributive justice (eternal hell for sinners) can only be remitted or set aside if public justice (maintaining the law of God) is fulfilled. Therefore God can only remit our penalty (mercy) if an atonement is made which satisfied the purpose of our penalty (public justice).

You should read Jonathon Edward Jr, Albert Barnes, and Charles Finney on the atonement.

[TheSwordOfTheWord]

ok but why was Christ sweating blood asking the Father to let this cup pass from Him? Do you address this in part two? What exactly was in the cup that made Christ sweat blood?

[johnmcglone4]

Why not just watch part two and find out?

When Christ was sweating blood wasn't He being tempted?

Tempted to do or not to do what?

God bless you as you seek His truth.

[TheSwordOfTheWord]

Internet connection was pretty shaky there for a min. I finally got a chance to watch it. I don't think satan tempted Jesus when he was sweating blood. But if he was why would that make Jesus sweat blood? He was tempted in the wilderness for 40 days while fasting and didn't crack? Why then?

Bless you as well brother, your videos as well as Kerrigan and Jessie are really inspirational.

[johnmcglone4]

great question, I think it is more than just temptations also...

Thank you for your encouragement.

God bless you.

John

[bibletheology]

The Bible says THAT Christ was sweating blood, it doesn't specifically say WHY he did so. We can only speculate or conjecture. Science does tell us that under extreme stress and preasure, men sometimes sweat blood. Jesus was not the only way. Therefore we do not need to conclude that you must be under God's wrath to sweat blood, since other men besides Jesus have done so. It could be because he knew all that he would suffer and that so much depended upon it.

[bibletheology]

"Jesus was not the only way" I meant to say "Jesus was not the only one". Others have also sweat blood. Under extreme stress and preasure your blood vessels burst. Other men besides Jesus have had this experience. It doesn't mean that Jesus was "afraid of the wrath of God" as Calvinists always say.

[TheSwordOfTheWord]

Right so why would Jesus be under that much stress and pressure? Like Paul Washer said (i'm not a big fan btw but he made a good point) why would the captian of our salvation be in the garden sweating blood and in agony over a cross when His followers went to it with joy in their heart? Again I'm not saying you're wrong brother just following the berean model and wanting to search the scripture to see if these things be true. Thanks in advance for your responses.

[TheSwordOfTheWord]

Right before in Luke 22:42 Christ is asking for the cup to be removed from Him. In Matt 26:42 Christ is asking that if there was anyway for the cup to pass from Him except He drink it. So I don't think its too illogical to believe or to logically infer from the text that Christ is nervous about that cup. I'm sure the suffering on the cross would have been stressful enough but I don't think Jesus would be sweating a cross like that when his later followers went to it singing.

[johnmcglone4]

Didn't He tell the sons of thunder that He would drink a cup of suffering, but that they would also?

So is it possible that God was lifting His hand of protection from His Son? If that was the case the full understanding of what was about to take place may have made him sweat blood? Not just physically because of what men and devils were about to do, but spiritually...as the Son was seperated from the Father.

[TheSwordOfTheWord]

Ok so I was watching a movie today "They Sold Their Souls For Rock N Roll" and a scripture came up that might settle this one. John 3:36. And If I'm wrong then by all means whoever correct me.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

so this since I would agree that Jessie is right that Christ death does provide the way to have God's wrath not abide on a man.

[BonzaiJakab]

Shai Linne, Ray Comfort, John Piper, John MacArthur, John Piper, Paul Washer, And Others... I think I'll stick with them dude.

So... Christ died so that God could turn from His wrath and show His mercy? And somehow the God-man getting mocked and dying made that possible?

Why? Why did Jesus die? I'm sticking with to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins suffering under the punishment we deserve, so that we might be forgiven through repentance and faith.

If not, then I ask why did He die?

[fractalfires]

an atonement is a substitute for punishment.

the sheep were not being PUNISHED by the priest when their throats were slit.

Atonement doesn't suddenly take on a new meaning in the New Testament. Its meaning is established in the Old Testament and that meaning carries over. I know its difficult for you.

[BonzaiJakab]

Then make it easier please... convince me through scripture and plain reason, that a legal transaction did not take place at calvary.

I believe it did.

Message me please.

[artanis68]

No systematic atonement model is ever clearly defined by scripture.

[RefutingCalvinism]

The blood atonement of Jesus Christ substitutes the eternal hell that sinners deserve, so that God could remit our penalty when we repent and believe.

[BonzaiJakab]

OK, but why did 'Jesus' have to die to be our substitute. By this logic, couldn't just some other guy died? Couldn't just some lamb do it?

Did Jesus die so that we wouldn't have to sacrifice a lamb anymore? If so, then was it really worth it... just so we wouldn't have to kill some animals?

I'm trying to see the logic behind your definition of the atonement. I am not a scholar. But, it doesn't make too much sense, right now...

Please 'message' me, if you wish to discuss it more.

[bibletheology]

Jesus had to die as our substitute in order to satisfy the purpose of our penalty. God cannot set aside or remit our penalty (eternal hell fire) unless the purpose of our penalty is satisfied by an alternative means. God must declare his regard for His law. God must maintain the authority and influence of His law. God must prevent crime. God must promote the well-being of His creation. He does this either through the eternal punishment of sinners, or through the atonement of Christ.

[bibletheology]

Jesus was the only one who could atone for our sins because Jesus only was valuable enough to provide a substitute for eternal hell. The sinlessness of His character and the dignity of His person made Him the only one valuable enough to provide a substitute for the penalty of the law.

[1689Baptist]

They were being punished b/c the priest laid their hands on the head transfering the sins of the people.

[RefutingCalvinism]

Under the government of God, the penalty of the law serves a purpose. Unless that purpose is fullfilled, our penalty cannot be remitted by God's mercy. God must declare his regard for His law, in order to maintain law and order throughout His universe, or else God cannot pardon mankind.

If sinners turn from their sins THEN God will turn from His wrath.

When it comes to the atonement, I'll stick with Jonathon Edwards Jr, Charles Finney, Albert Barnes, John Miley, Nathan Beman, etc.

[mws7x70]

I would also say that, although sinners are themselves under wrath, the message of the Gospel is NOT, "God is angry at you because of your sin. repent, or you will perish." but rather, "God loves you so much, He died for you so that you can have eternal relationship with Him. if you repent of your sins (change your mind), you will be saved", etc. in other words, we preach GOOD NEWS...we don't preach God's anger at sinners, unless that is the issue at stake with a certain group of people.

[fractalfires]

Those who teach Jesus satisfied God's wrath would hopefully be horrified and shocked if they read Irenaeus' refutation of Marcion. Irenaeus went to great lengths and through almost two whole books demonstrating that there is ONE God, author of BOTH covenants, possessing ONE morality. Marcion held the 'good' god of the New Testament saved people from the just God of the Old Testament.

[1689Baptist]

I see no disagreement here with Irenaeus teaching??

[fractalfires]

Yeah and you don't see the end of your nose either it seems.

Against Heresies, Book 4, chapters 12-18. He goes to great lengths to destroy your idea that the moral law has been abrogated by the New Covenant.

Also see chapters 37-41 for a deeper treatise on moral government vs. puppetry

I didn't write this for you, but for other viewers. You are going to dismiss the evidence as not being evidence, out of context or whatever. I don't really care what you reply.

[1689Baptist]

Such hate!!!

[1689Baptist]

Jesus drank the cup of Gods wrath for His elect only, there is no wrath left for His people.But the wrath of God is still on the rest of the world.

[OpenAirOutreach]

Are you saying you were born saved? Are you saying you were not under the wrath of God while you were impenitent and unbelieving? You were saved from God's wrath before you repented and before you had faith???

[1689Baptist]

In a sense I was saved before the foundations of the world but it was made real to me at the moment of conversion.Even though I was under Gods wrath from my stand point b/c I was in sin but from Gods stand point the work was already done.

[fractalfires]

dualism. you have two lilly pads so that if someone tries to sink one, you hop on the other. Dualism allows you to embrace contradictions and then blame the outsider for not understanding and when pressed, you belch "who are you to reply to GOD?" Just a theological shell game.

[1689Baptist]

Rev.17:8 says my name was written in the book of life from the foundation of the world

[fractalfires]

Possibly it does refer to you. It states, 'and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world,'

So the passage does not speak here at all of those whose names are written, but of those who are NOT written. You have clearly ADDED to the words of the Revelation. I guess you know what that means, unless you hold to imputed nonsense.

[1689Baptist]

Looks to me that your name is in the book of life from the foundation of the world or it is not there at all. Nor ever can be.

[fractalfires]

names can be blotted out apparently. I think you went through this debate before somewhere if I'm not mistaken.

[1689Baptist]

There is no where that says your name can be blotted out. It says I will not blot your name.

[bibletheology]

Until a person turns from sin and trust in Christ, they are under the wrath of God. Many of those whom Jesus Christ has died for are still under God's wrath, because they have not yet made the decision to repent and believe.

[OpenAirOutreach]

Jesus said his disciples would drink of his cup. Were the disciples elect? How come the disciples drank from the cup of God's wrath, in your theology?

[1689Baptist]

The desciples drank of His cup of physical suffering not the cup of Gods wrath.,

[fractalfires]

your belief that Jesus drank of two cups, one of physical suffering and ANOTHER of God's wrath is not Scriptural. Conjecture is not exegesis.

[1689Baptist]

Do a word search of cup in the O T. So you think Jesus the captain of our salvation sweat drops of blood b/c He was scared of the cross when His followers would go singing to their crosses. No, something else was going on.

[Bibletouchstone]

Exactly; Jesse seems to be guilty of the fallacy of equivocation...very haphazard.

[NobodySpecial85]

True on the elect part. However no one knows if they're truly an elect or not. You can lose your salvation if you stray away.

Paul said to make your calling and ELECTION SURE. 2 Peter 1:10

Stay Holy and obey His commandments for only those who obey His commandments truly love Him. John 14:15 & 21

[patrox247]

Do you believe in a universal atonement or something? This is wacky!

[OpenAirOutreach]

The Bible says Jesus died for the whole world, but the whole world is not saved from God's wrath, therefore Jesus didn't satisfy God's wrath. Jesus made it possible for God to turn from His wrath when sinners are converted.

[RefutingCalvinism]

If Jesus satisfied God's wrath, the whole world would be saved from God's wrath, since Jesus died for everyone.

[irun26mi]

Your video makes sense, but I have a question for you. Why does Jesus cry out to God to take away the cup that he must bear? Is Jesus afraid of a cup of simple physical death and suffering? I think Paul Washer means God wrath was satisfied to those that repent and believe the gospel and not to the entire human race. God is also infinitely more valuable than man, so Jesus punishment would not have to be infinite in length.

[OpenAirOutreach]

The Bible doesn't say why Jesus cried out, so I cannot say. But Jesus did say that his disciples would drink of the same cup. Jesus didn't merely die for those who would repent and believe, Jesus died for the whole world. ANd becaus eof the value of the atonement, it is an adequate substitute for our eternal punishment. Jesus didn't need to take our eternal punishment, suffering on the cross was enough to atone for our sins.

[irun26mi]

When you say Jesus death was the substitute are you not saying that Jesus paid the fine? Not all sacrifices are created equal, the greater the sacrifice the more power it has. The act of God suffering and dying on the cross is legally powerful enough to save the entire World from an eternity in hell.

[RefutingCalvinism]

Our punishment was eternity in hell. The penalty for our sins is eternal death. The atonement of Christ is a subsitute for our penalty, so that our penalty could be remitted. It as a replacement for our punishment, so that our punishment could be set aside or withheld.

[irun26mi]

That makes sense, but you can still say that he paid the price for our penalty, since we could not do anything to reverse our situation.

[bibletheology]

Jesus didn't pay our fine or pay our debt. That is not a good analogy. Jesus paid the price of His own life in order to provide a substitute for our eternal punishment of hell. Jesus paid the ultimate price so that salvation could be available to everyone, so that God could remit the penalty of those who repent and believe.

[irun26mi]

If one commits a crime and there is a substitution that means that there is more than one way to do justice. For instance a guy steals $500 from a neighbors house and instead of going to jail he pays a monetary fine. When you say Jesus is our substitute you are saying that Jesus death satisfies the wrath of God towards repented believers. Remember 1 Corinthians 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

[irun26mi]

This is what I believe. I believe Gods sacrifice is capable of saving the entire World, but it does not. The reason is because God refuses to pay the fine of unrepentant sinners even though his sacrifice is more than capable of doing so. It is like having the money to free a prisoner, but the prisoner is unwilling to change his ways, so you refuse to pay his fine.

[AaronM144000]

The Bible does say that Jesus had the Spirit of the fear of the LORD in Him(Isaiah 11)). Because He feared God could very well explain his agony in Gethsamane. I'm not sure.

[S7VIIN]

Jesse,

Great video, although I may disagree in the end, it's great to get some intellectual and theological stimulation from time-to-time and really challenge and question my theology to see if it's really what Scripture teaches or doesn't.

-Seven

[Bibletouchstone]

This is what happens when loaded terms are not defined. Let no man be fooled with equivocation fallacies.

[OpenAirOutreach]

Our penalty: eternal hell

Forgiveness: when penalty is remitted

Atonement: a substitute for penalty

[Bibletouchstone]

Our penalty cannot be eternal because we are created beings. You must mean everlasting hell, and even that needs some clarification. The curse was a comprehensive death...but I suppose you believe man is born morally neutral.

[fractalfires]

define eternal for viewers please. You are probably disagreeing with the use of a term rather than what Jesse means. It saves a lot of mess if you know what i mean

[Bibletouchstone]

Well, eternal means pre-existent and from everlasting and for everlasting.

[RefutingCalvinism]

God gives us eternal life. That doesn't mean we are from everlasting to everlasting. It means life without end. Eternal hell is punishment without end. The punishment for sin is never ending. The penalty for sin is eternal. That is why the atonement was not our penalty or punishment, but was a substitute for it.

[Bibletouchstone]

Agreed in some respects (the terms are often used interchangeably in the Septuagint). Although to preserve an orthodox Christology [, knowing your heterodox views of the Atonement,] we must agree that the substitutionary Atonement of Christ is a far greater propitiation for our sins than an eternity of human penance in hell (we are not a perfect sacrifice). Jesus bore the full scope of the curse on the cross, dead in every sense of the term.

[fractalfires]

I see. You are defining eternal in a different sense than many use it. You are using a Calvinistic definition.

We must be aware of how others use certain terms. I figured you must be using the term in a different way, and this is why I asked you to clarify.

When people speak of 'eternal torment' they don't use the term in the same way you do. Another established meaning of the term eternal is 'infinite duration'. Being aware of different meanings of terms is useful and conciliatory.

[Bibletouchstone]

The primary meaning of the word "eternal" in English implies without beginning, not only without end. This is not a Calvinist minority, and not worth a quarrel. So we agree that eternal is truly "infinite duration".

[fractalfires]

Very good Bibletouchstone! You did your homework! Pat yourself on the back. You are right, it IS the primary meaning, but not the ONLY meaning. So you should have the intelligence enough to see that another common meaning is perpetual, never stopping, ceaseless and everlasting. Hence, it doesn't always need to mean something outside of time and can in some cases refer to something that has continuance without interuption from a beginning. A thing can have a beginning and continue eternally

[bibletheology]

The atonement did not satisfy God's wrath, since God still has wrath after the atonement. Rather, the atonement was a condition through which God could turn from His wrath without dishonoring or weakening His law, without encouraging sin, etc. The atonement was not our penalty but was a substitute for our penalty. It satisfied the purpose of our penalty so that our penalty could be remitted. But nobody is saved from wrath until conversion.

[FireThunderTV]

Makes alot of sense Jesse. Good points I never really thought about before. And yea, what about the "bowls" in Revelation? That's God's wrath on sin, and it happens long after Jesus died.

[RefutingCalvinism]

I think we need to think rationally and intelligently about it. People say things without thinking of the implications or logical conclusions. We should be careful not to go beyond what the Bible actually says.

Be sure to watch Part Two. It is in the process of being uploaded. It will take some time though.

[FireThunderTV]

People have a tendency to repeat what they've heard, and just because they heard it dozens of times, they think it's the truth, so they don't challenge it. I never really thought much about it until you brought it up.

[S7VIIN]

RefutingCalvinism,

Great observation, about thinking in terms of logical conclusions and implications. I began to realize this recently about certain doctrines.

-Seven

[FireThunderTV]

I'm first!