@baqikenny There is some kind of connection since Kalaripayattu is from animal movements, just like Kung Fu. South India and China have been trading with each other since ancient times, it could be close to 3,000 years. Everyone traded with South India for spices and silk at that period in time. Fighting secrets could have been passed to each other. I highly doubt Bodhidharma brought this martial art to China since he was North Indian, so just Buddhism most likely.
@TheUndertakerSaysRIP ..And you're just another ignoramus prick with an opinion that doesn't have any credible factual proof to back up this BULLSHIT BODHI LIE. Why don't you search the meaning of the word "FACTS".
Just watching any videos of KungFu or TKD videos, it makes me laugh how Kalaripayattu or any other Indian martial arts have no similarites whatsoever with KungFu or any other martial arts, not in form, technique, execution, and style. That's a fact, you have to be blind & stupid to deny it. Here's a couple of them. "Shaolin Monk vs Taekwondo Master" & "KUNG FU vs TAEKWONDO", these are demos, and this one, actual competition, titled "Kung Fu Master vs Taekwon Do Black Belt"
So before jumping into a conclusion, please provide your arguments in detail. Otherwise,it is just a bias. You can not establish anything or make a point, if something is uncertain.Also,avoid generalisation,bias,suppression and even argumentum ad populum + argumentum ad verecundiam. Goodluck!
I have already provided my arguments in detail. I have given you references, quotes dates etc. Rather than addressing the evidence I posted you have done the same thing every time. Rely on vague accusations of "suppression" "no evidence" "lying Chinese" "twisting" or call me a "Charlatan", "maverick" or "Liar" In the hope that you can steer the debate away from the fact that I have repeatedly posted proof that you are not able to refute.
I have already given you ample proof of the existence of Kung Fu during the Warring States period. So you can either prove that the ShiJing, LiJi and ShiJi are forgeries or you can present evidence that Indian martial arts were introduced to China before the 6th century B.C. Good Luck!
It is unbelievable that 'Lion Dance' and Kung fu-like martial arts existed al ready in India. Kalari has all the animals styles in fighting.However, Kung fu is rather modified and extended.There are many logical flaws when someone claim that Kung fu existed in China without any evidence. I do not accept any invalid proof, and calling me as an 'ignorant' because I do not concur with you is a suppression. you need to understand that we need to judge critically. So before jumping into conclusion..
It's funny how you call all the proof I give you Invalid but you can't actually refute any of it. Then the only "proof" you have given is to lie about the contents of the Er Ru Si Hang, and to point out that Kalari and Kung Fu both have animal forms like virtually every single other martial art on the planet.
@shobyms I'm not calling you ignorant because you don't agree with me. I'm calling you ignorant because you have repeatedly shown a total lack of knowledge of Chinese history, culture, religion, and martial arts.
IF there are many logical flaws why can't you point out one?
China was the first bureaucracy, they kept records of virtually everything. Don't you think it's strange that there is absolutely no record of kung fu being introduced from india? But there are many records of Kung Fu being practiced in China before the birth of Buddha or any direct contact with India.
In order to prove Kung Fu originated in China,one has to have at least --->1, Kung fu = Shou bou. 2, any veracious historical link that relates Kung Fu moves into the existed Martial art or customs then.
Buddhism never accept anything apart from Buddhist dogma. There is no way at all that Buddhist monks had to start 'Kung fu'.Before BuddhaBadra the First Abbot of Temple, Many Chinese were interested to learn Buddhism and had several connections. It is undeniable that Buddhism travelled to China.
@shobyms Yes of course it's undeniable that Buddhism traveled from India to China just like it's undeniable that there were already well developed martial arts systems practiced in China long before it's arrival.
most of the basic moves of kung fu are similar to kalraipayattu ... kalari is oldest martial arts it is in existence from more than 5000 years .... it is believed tht it was thought by lord shiva the supreme yogi .. now if u want more proof study palegari leaves ... available
@shriniize ..I've asked a friend of mine who is a practitioner of Kalaripayattu, to demonstrate kicks, & also asked him if he knows Tornado, 540, & your basic chamber kicks, side & front. None of what he demonstrated were any where close to what i demonstrated & he pretty much didn't know most of the ones that i asked for Even the most basic round house was off not to mention their spinning kicks The best way to see that spinning kick is in this video Kalarippayattu demonstration- southern style
gbb357 you are not even fit to be a martial artist .. u dont even have patience .. you dont have guts to accept the truth ... u are just another bitch .....
@gbb357 and again i say .. thats not a kick... its a pre composed practicing sequence ...
NOT A FIGHT .. you stop putting wrong infos about these arts... you neither know kung fu nor kalari ... not even the real history. then why do u have to keep commenting here...
@plugspark333 ...LOL!!! It's called a fight demonstation you moron, and yes it is a PATHETIC RETARDED kick that's why the opponent blocked it. You're either blind, in denial, or just plain stupid, or maybe all of the above, to not see and say that it was a PATHETIC RETARDED KICK.
@plugspark333 ...WRONG!!! All of the websites including the misinformed WIKI have repeatedly stated that Bodhidarma who was meditating in the cave saw the monks being weak & out of shaped & that's when he taught them Buddhism, Yoga & exercises. Somehow, some idiot concluded that Buddhism, Yoga, & exercise equates to KungFu & that they automatically ASSumed that Bodhi taught KungFu as well. OBVIOUSLY THIS IS ALL A BULLSHIT LIE & A PROPAGANDA TO PROMOTE KALARI, IT'S QUITE DISGUSTING.
The Shaolin temple C’han Buddhist monks, inheritors of Boddhidharma’s spiritual and martial teachings, by the present Chinese Government, is now open to visitors. On one of the walls, a fresco can be seen, showing Indian dark-skinned monks, teaching their lighter-skinned Chinese brothers the art of bare-handed fighting. On this painting are inscribed: “Tenjiku Naranokaku” which means: “the fighting techniques to train the body (which come) from India…”
@sayak912 ..The only thing that Bodhi taught was Buddhism, Yoga, & exercises, nothing more, nothing less. That painting means nothing, and the monks doesn't have the authority in regards to the history of KungFu. They're beliefs is base a lot on Buddhism which has nothing to do with KungFu.
There is no evidence that Bodhidharma taught an "Yoga" or "Exercises" That idea comes from the preface of the YiJinJing which is known to be a 17th century forgery. The story in the preface became the nucleus for the Bodhidharma legend and was repeted and expanded upon until "taught exercises which became the basis for kung fu" became just "taught Kung fu".
@TheaSinensisSerpenti ...I never said or claim there are evidence of Bodhi teaching anything. I'm simply saying that if he did, he only taught Buddhism, yoga, & exercise, nothing more. But you are correct, there is no evidence with those either, and there's even less evidence that he even knew any martial arts at all, let alone taught one.
There are many many metions of Bodhidharma between the time of his death and the writing of the YiJinJing 11 centuries later. They all say that he taught Chan Buddhism, not a single one mentions him teaching anything else. The idea that he taught Yoga, Exercises, or Kung Fu is based on a lie, I.E. a forged "historical" document.
The inscription actually reads "Quanpu Bihua" which translates as "Boxing Methods Mural". There is no mention of India or Indians on the mural, it is simply a mural showing monks of different skin tones practicing together. There is a wide range of skin color in China as there are over 200 native ethnic groups. It was only during the last century after the Bodhidharma myth had become widespread through fictional novels that people gave it that interpretation.
idot, KUNG FU invented on orders of emperor HUANGDI 2600 years B.C, in CHINA, KARATE is from OKINAWA, JAPAN, KERALA is from INDIA, AHATI and LUTTE are from WESTERN AFRICA. CAPOERO is BRAZILIAN AFRICAN, so every place has its martial arts even FRANCE had SAVATE in old days
@plugspark333 ...Kalari has no similarities with any martial arts, especially with kungFu. If you watch the retarded pathetic kick on the video "Fighting without weapons, Kalarippayattu, Martial art, Kerala" at 1:56 of that video, you'll realize that it has no similarities with any other martial arts, base on that pathetic retarded kick, that no other martial arts would ever teach or execute. The monks are the only ones that "worship" Bodhi, not all of China.
@gbb357 dont talk without info. u talk only by seeing that video.. its wrong.. and that thing is not a kick ... its a movement posture.... kalari is unique, from which shaolin evolved.. bodhidharman is a kalari martial artist and in earlier days, even shaolin had kalari, later on it modernized and got better. but the basic forms ans animal styles are common in both... u learn the arts and then talk .. not by seeing a video..
@plugspark333 ...Maybe you should learn how to read & comprehend before you speak. I specifically said to watch the video titled "Fighting without weapons, Kalarippayattu, Martial art, Kerala", and watch the PATHETIC RETARDED KICK on 1:56 of THAT video. That is a kick & a retarded one at that. No martial arts form, especially KungFu would ever teach & execute that RETARDED PATHETIC kick. I know enough martial arts to know that's a useless retarded pathetic kick.
First,you are talking about current martial art schools,but it was not the same in the past while Buddhism was predominantly practised in China.Second,there were no Kung Fu related Martial arts in China,that is for sure and you have no evidence to support it. The other Martial arts existed in China,had no structural relationship with Kung fu. Here,you need a comparitive study,not a youtube study. Then, you can not call anyone ignorant and arrogant when you need more illumination.
@shobyms ..So there were other martial arts in China before KungFu, and yet Kalari is the mother of all martial arts that KungFu came from. How is that possible, and how do you know for a "FACT", that the other martial arts that existed before kungfu, didn't come from kungfu or kungfu came from those other martial arts that existed before kungfu? When you speak of something that has no factual credible proof but you present it as facts, that's ignorance & arrogance.
@gbb357 you don't want to be a troll,do you? anyway DITTO. as long as you do not submit any empirical or factual evidence,then this case is a moot case.Otherwise,bring it on.. prove me that China had already 'Kung-fu' before Budha badhra or so. Just do not allege like 'China already had martial arts by showing some wrestling skills' because wrestling is not 'Kung-Fu'. Period! arrogance and ignorance are always on your side as well, but you failed to see it.
@shobyms ...Again, I don't have to prove anything because i didn't make up any BULLSHIT CLAIM/LIE. I never claimed that KungFu is the mother of all martial arts nor did i claim that Kalari came from KungFu, especially when it's quite obvious that there are absolutely no similarities base on that PATHETIC RETARDED KICK from Kalari. The arrogance & ignorance is from Kalari to make up such BULLSHIT LIES WHEN THERE'S NO FACTUAL CREDIBLE PROOF, get it now. When did i associate KungFu with wrestling?
Personally I would not care if KungFu did come from India. I think that Kalaripayattu is an amazing martial art and is a treasure of ancient Indian culture. I also will not say that I agree with gbb357 as I find many of his comments to be rude and uniformed. But the story of Bodhidharma teaching Yoga, Exercises, or Martial Arts is a myth.
@TheaSinensisSerpenti ...Yes i am rude, but only to those that deserves it. I will admit that i am quite abrasive with my opinion about this subject, and i don't have any excuse for it nor will i make one either. I'm just passionate about this subject only because this BS LIE is sooo disgusting & insulting to the martial arts world. If i have offended you with any of my comments, i assure you they weren't meant for you & i didn't mean to.
What is being discussed here is the historical veracity of the assertions in the video. The reason I said that is that weather you think that a kick you saw in a video is "B.S." (or even the entire art of Kalaripayattu) and that it would not be done that way in a Chinese system has nothing to do with historical evidence. Emotions often run high in discussions like these. Bringing up things like that only angers people, turning it into an argument in which no one listening.
@TheaSinensisSerpenti ...The kick that i am referring to is not "BS", it's an actual kick that is executed by Kalari practitioners. I'm not implying that kick alone is historical evidence, but i am implying that there are no similarities between KF & Kalari base on that kick & other techniques in Kalari. That for me is proof. Techniques, execution, & forms matters a lot & proves a lot.
Part of the problem is that people use these myths to prove the superiority of their art (or country). When you question the myths they feel that you are attacking their art (or country). That has no part in historical debate but when you bring up those things that is exactly what you are doing, turning it from a historical debate into an argument about the relative value of those arts or cultures.
@TheaSinensisSerpenti ...That is exactly the whole point of this BS LIE, to prove & to promote that Kalari is better & that India invented martial arts. Nothing more. It's kinda pathetic to take credit from another martial arts just to get recognition, IMO. By all means i'm not attacking the country or the people, not even the art itself. But i am attacking the BS LIE & the Kalari community or anyone else that supports this BS LIE.
I happen to admire Kalaripayattu and I don't really care if you think it is B.S., that is your own opinion. But the opinions of me you or anyone else on this page on the relative value of these arts has nothing to do with historical fact and should not be part of this debate. I'm not just saying this to you but to everyone here, weather you like India or China better, If you are a master of Kalari, Shaolin or BOTH means absolutely nothing when it comes to historical accuracy.
@TheaSinensisSerpenti ..I admire all martial arts, but when any martial arts tries to take credit, or in this case, steal credit from another martial arts, it loses respect and credibility, especially when they claim to be better and claim to be the inventor of all martial arts. That's just arrogance & ignorance at it's finest.
Those are people making those claims, not the martial art it's self. Besides many Chinese martial arts have oral histories that make false historical claims. The Shaolin temple it's self uses that myth to boost it's prominence and make money. Yes it's wrong, and it's disrespectful to the people who developed and passed on the art and to the history of the monastery. But it does not lower the value of the traditional Shaolin arts. The same thing goes for Kalaripayattu.
@TheaSinensisSerpenti ...Kalaripayattu is not BS, it is a beautiful art, but like all martial arts, it has it's flaws. That being said, their claim is nothing but a BS LIE. My opinion and the opinion of others, does not matter. What matters are credible historical facts, nothing else. This BS CLAIM/LIE doesn't have any credible factual proof to back it up. It is presented as facts without any factual credible proof, therefore it's nothing but a LIE.
Well obviously we agree on that, but all I am saying is that getting in arguements about specific techniques is not productive. You might see that video and find that it has no similarity to Shaolin while other people obviously see a great deal of similarity. there can be huge differences between what two people see while watching a martial arts demonstration.
@TheaSinensisSerpenti ...There are obvious big differences between Kalari & KungFu, better yet, there are no similarities at all. That's the reason why i keep going back to the Kalari kicks. People can say what they want & see what they want to see, if people keep repeating the same lie over & over, eventually they'll believe their own lie. Like i said, just compare the demo videos of KungFu & Kalari, you have to be blind and/or in denial not to see the drastic differences.
If you are trying to present people with proof that Kung Fu did not originate in India then stick to easily proven, unambiguous historical evidence. There is enough of that to fill several books. When you argue about the way a specific technique appears to you or call people names then you are arguing for the sake of argument. The truth is proven by methodical presentation of facts. Not by angering others so that they won't listen, even if they angered you first.
@TheaSinensisSerpenti ..Like i told shobysm before, i don't need to show any proof at all. I'm not the one that made a claim, if i claim that there's life in Pluto, i have to back it up. I can't defend that claim by simply saying "prove me wrong". That's my logic. But there's soo many evidence out there that i could easily look up & post. Angryazeanman have posted proofs repeatedly & so have you. The bottom line is the people that believe this LIE wouldn't believe anything else.
When you say something that goes against what is accepted as common knowledge you need to show proof. When people first claimed the earth was round they needed to show proof because it was considered an established fact that the earth was flat. Unfortunately the Bodhidharma/Kung Fu myth has also been accepted as "fact". Yes there are many people who will never believe the truth.
@TheaSinensisSerpenti ...The common knowledge is KungFu is "ONE OF THE OLDEST MARTIAL ARTS", not the original or the oldest, but it is original on it's own, that's the common knowledge. This Bodhi myth didn't come into fruition till the early 19th century, i forgot the exact date, i'd like to say around the 20's. The conclusion of the research was simply based on assumptions & myth, not facts. Paintings of the bodhi with the monks does not equate to him teaching martial arts, that's a joke.
Common knowledge is what ever is currently accepted as fact by the majority of people not what was accepted as fact over 100 years ago, and what is accepted as fact obviously is not necessarily fact. By the way the date you are looking for is 1907 when Lao Can YouJi was published.
@TheaSinensisSerpenti ...Before 1907, KungFu was already established as an original Chinese martial arts, that's the accepted fact & common knowledge way before 1907 & definitely way more than 100yrs before 1907. BTW, thank you for the actual date.
@gbb357 You obviously know what I mean, for the last hundred years the Bodhidharma myth has been wrongly accepted as fact by most people. If you want to change popular opinion you have to present reliable facts. But you've made it abundantly clear that you are only here to argue with, mock, and anger people and get off on the fact that you are "right" and know slightly more than the people you are arguing with.
@gbb357 You have also made it clear that you could care less about educating people. Unfortunately you don't actually know enough about the subject to put together a cohesive fact based argument to back up your stance. But your need to engage any one who comments here in argument for its own sake means that they are already to angry to listen when someone who actually can give them a fact based explanation makes a comment.
@TheaSinensisSerpenti ..Well said & i actually agree with you. But like i said before, you & others have presented arguments with actual historical facts, & i have presented simple logic. It doesn't really matter to those who believe this LIE, they're completely brainwashed with this propaganda & they're completely delusional. Which is fine with me because it shows more proof that this is nothing but a LIE because they can't come up with any credible factual proof to back up this BS LIE.
There are many people out there who practice and or teach Shaolin and or Kalaripayattu who use this story as a source of pride. In their minds it proves that they are superior to people who practice other martial arts because they teach / practice the "original" style. Many have heard this story hundreds of times from their teachers or told it hundreds of times to their students. To question this story would cause them to question the omnipotence of their teacher,
or force them to have to admit that they were wrong to their students. Many people also use this myth to attract new students to their art. I've seen it done many times even by people who knew it was a lie. Even the Shaolin temple does this, they have done extensive research on the history of Shaolin and are well aware of the origins of this myth. But this myth has also brought them worldwide fame and fortune.
When I started practicing martial arts I believed this myth was true, it was presented as fact in virtually every book I read. Later when I started to really research the history of Chinese martial arts I realized that it was entirely made up, and quite recently in historical terms. Almost everyone hears and believes this myth when they start martial arts, and there are those who profit emotionally of financially from this myth who will never believe the truth, but some will.
But basically what I have to say is that if you really think you shouldn't have to show proof or that no one will believe the truth anyways, than you are just arguing for the sake of argument. By doing this you are angering people and making them less likely to listen.
@TheaSinensisSerpenti ...You have a good point & you are correct. They're not going to listen regardless what proof you & i present. So yes i am arguing just for the sake of arguing, but also to point out this BS LIE that no one has any factual credible proof to back it up with. If anything, i'm simply calling out this atrocious & insulting LIE. It is what it is, and nobody can prove me wrong. If they're not concern of angering people with this BS LIE, why should i be concern of angering them.
If you want to get in arguments with people or just get some sort of an ego boost by knowing you are "right" than there are plenty of places on the internet to do that. But personally I believe that while some people will never listen, there are others who are open minded and are interested in learning about the actual history of the martial arts they practice. In fact I know there are.
@TheaSinensisSerpenti ...I would prefer if they prove me wrong, i have no problem of being wrong, the truth & facts matters more. I wish i can be more reasonable or at least as reasonable as you, the fact is i'm tired of this BS LIE that is being spread around as if it is true. Especially when the only reason why this BS LIE is being spread is to promote their art & to get credibility. That's stealing & that's just sad & pathetic.
@TheaSinensisSerpenti It does not matter where it originated. That's true.But you can't disregard India's contributions to China ( including the country name -cina).
@shobyms No I don't disregard India's contributions to China. India has made huge contributions to China in terms of religion, philosophy, technology, medicine, and many other things. But the story of Bodhidharma teaching Kungfu, Yoga, or any exercises has repeatedly been proven false, as has the idea of Kung Fu coming from India.
Yes there is evidence of Indian influence on Chinese martial arts and there is also evidence of Chinese influence on Indian martial arts. But both were in existence long before then.
@TheaSinensisSerpenti Chinese influence on Indian martial arts is rather recent but Indian influence is more ancient and pre-dates any Chinese Martial arts
The name of China is thought to come from the Qin dynasty. According to multiple INDIAN Scholars the texts that mention the Cina are thought to refer to either a Tibeto-Burman tribe, or a small tribal kingdom in the southern Yunnan/Guangdong area called the Zina. Yes southern Yunnan/Guangdong are within modern China but at that time they were thousands of miles from China and would be culturally closer to the people of Assam than to the Chinese.
@TheaSinensisSerpenti 'Thought to have' = so not a factual one. Please read about 'Cina' more. Cina THOUGHT to have referred ? In that case, you are twisting it.
@shobyms I'm not twisting anything, I'm just repeating the findings of Indian scholars who have looked into the matter. Personally I think you should read more about actual Indian history yourself, right wing propaganda isn't a reliable source of historical information.
@TheaSinensisSerpenti , that is such a suppression what you are doing.why can't we critically judge it. It is like ' English also originated in the US,not just in the UK'. I do not know how much you are into Martial arts,but animals styles of Kung fu can not be originated possibly.Moreover, both countries are adjacent. You do not need to show me or teach me any Indian history and implicitly point out that my knowledge is spurious and your's is 100%.
@TheaSinensisSerpenti Did you study any of these theoretically? How come there are animal styles and acupressure points in Both countries? What an Irony if it was originated in 2 places randomly! Also,these places are quite adjacent geographically. Ignorance or propaganda? This 'Yin-Jin-refutation' actually promoted by Chinese scholars and not by others.In fact,I am not surprised to hear when a Chinese scholar support their own country.
@shobyms ...And what makes you so sure that the animal styles came from Kalari? Why couldn't the Kalari community simply claim their own martial arts instead of claiming that KungFu came from them, especially when there's no credible factual proof & there's no similarities whatsoever in form, technique, & execution. Why not make a name for themselves and earn their own credibility, why steal?.
@shobyms ... One thing for sure, you'll never hear any other martial arts claiming that their art came from Kalari or that they have any relationship or similarities from Kalari. That's saying a lot. Everyone knows BJJ is based on Judo & JJ, TKD is from KF, and Krav Maga is a mix of several martial arts and you don't hear any problem with those claims because they're true, legit, credible, honest, & honorable. The Kalari claim on the other hand is an outright disgusting & insulting BS LIE.
@gbb357 : Ok let's leave it all. I do not understand why you are here for? I have been reading your posts regularly for ages? I think you have some issues.BTW this is not a Chinese upload.
We already talked about those and its all over as bits and pieces. Can you stop generalising? 'Everyone' knows? so even a new born baby knows? First of all,I do not think you have personally experienced Kalari or any Vedic Martial arts.
@shobyms ...Why does it matter if it's a Chinese upload or not. I honestly don't care & my only issue is this BS LIE. Yes, everyone knows the common knowledge that KungFu is from China. Only the delusional & brainwashed people that doesn't have any sense of logic & doesn't believe in facts that believes this BS LIE. They rather believe in a myth that is nothing but a BS LIE.
@shobyms ...I'm here to dispute this BS LIE, & if you have read all of my post, then you should know by now that i'm not Asian, let alone Chinese. I'm an American with German heritage, & proud of it. I'm also into MMA with a background of BJJ, TKD, & FMA. I have seen Kalari in person, especially their kicks. That's why i know that it doesn't have any similarities with KungFu at all.
@gbb357 : If a Chinese scholar proved it's all wrong and if it is not peer reviewed,then I do not worry about it much.China would even claim 'Buddhism' is a Chinese product.It is very clear that you will never leave this you-tube form because you have issues.Do you have any personal research to substantiate? or did you just copy paste the 'internet and wikipedia' ? In that case, enough said!
@shobyms ..Only an idiot would think or say that Buddhism is from China, see how easy that was to be logical. Wiki, that's funny coming from you when everything you have presented is from Wiki, LOL!!!
Do you have any personal research to substantiate your claims? Because the only "Proof" You have been able to put up were the names of several ancient books Known to be the best sources of information on the life of Bodhidharma. Only despite them having extensive biographies of him, there was not one mention of Kalaripayattu, Kung Fu, Martial arts, Yoga, or even any "exercises" of any kind (aside from sitting meditation) in any of them.
You're probably right, but honestly I find it disgusting that so many people defend this despite it being an obvious lie. I would be even more pissed if was Indian, with all the massive contributions India has made to the cultures of the world, do these people really feel that they need to make up and defend lies to be proud of their country? Kalaripayattu and Shaolin are both treasures passed down by by our ancestors, they deserve better than to be promoted through lies.
@TheaSinensisSerpenti Yes, I do.But I am waiting for the other side to show their factual sheet because no one begged here to refute it.But,you guys went on arguing about your Chinese origin about it.So the burden of proof is actually on you to prove that Kung fu originated from China.Even if we agree 'Yu Jin's excerpt is forged', you still need a factual corroborative data to back up your claims.
Corroborative data? we're talking about a preface that was supposedly written in 1628 but makes reference to a temple that wasn't built until 30 years later, that the manuscript of the YiJin Jing left by Bodhidharma had been translated from Sanskrit to Chinese centuries earlier by Paramiti who wasn't even born yet. The person he supposedly received the YiJin Jing from (Quiran Ke) was a fictional character from a book that wouldn't be written for over 300 years.
@TheaSinensisSerpenti Not at all. We were talking about the origin of Kung fu or its primordial form.It turned out finally to check out the validity of Yi Jin Jing's corpus.
Well as I already pointed out there are numerous record in ancient books such as the ShiJing / Book Of Songs, the LiJi / Book Of Rites, Wu Yue ChunQiu / The Spring and Autumn Annals of Wu and Yue, the ShiJi / the Records Of The Great Historian, the GuoYu / Discouses on the States, the HanFeiZi / Book of Master Han Fei, and many others. Not to mention the depictions found in art.
@shobyms I've answered all your question including about Cina, only you find it easier to pretend that I didn't. Because you are unable to refute the evidence that I have shown you resort to name calling. So if you want to call me "sneaky", a "charlatan", a "Liar", or say that that Chinese people are "Liars" because you can't address the evidence I have given without being proven wrong.
@TheaSinensisSerpenti you twisted it --> by saying thought to be,which is a falsified info.It is not thought to be. could you please refer wikipedia again.
@TheaSinensisSerpenti...When this is the best response that he can come up with to debate you, despite all of the detailed & historical proof you presented,"by saying thought to be,which is a falsified info.It is not thought to be", that's when you stop & realize that you're dealing with someone that's unreasonable, no logic, & pretty much defeated. Not to mention that's he's a moron.
No twisting things is when you claim that the texts found in Dunhuang by TanLin have records of Bodhidharma teaching martial arts, oh wait that's just lying
By the way what would you call lying about the contents of ancient Chan scriptures if not sneaky? When I actually start lying about the contents of books, making up claims that I have evidence when I have none, then I would be a liar, maverick, or a Charlatan. But as of this point you are the only one who has done any of those things.
@TheaSinensisSerpenti : I have already put you under 'twisting-charlatan' list because you did not respond to me regarding 'cina'. Do you think that I will surrender to your mediocre comments that is already been twisted? respond to the origin of cina first and I will consider your other comments. Gbb357 is a desperate troll for the last 1 year in here because I have been dealing with this issue with him. Sorry,I am not a simpleton as you are and I know many mavericks.
@shobyms ...LOL!!! You're calling me a troll, the irony, what's that saying again, "pot calling the kettle black". So where's your "EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE", EXACTLY, YOU DON'T HAVE ONE AND YOU NEVER HAD ONE. But keep sticking to your fictional story & fictional character, what's his name again, oh yeah, Bodhi. The man, the myth, the legend, the guy that lived for 700yrs in a cave, taught yoga & exercises, & then discovered KungFu. And Kalari was born, but they can't execute a basic kick, or any kick
@TheaSinensisSerpenti show me at least 1 empirical evidence.There is no empirical evidence so far so do not waste your time on internet. If you can bring out one,then I am more than happy to exposit and refute yours.Until then, it will be a moot point.No matter what you try,but I will not consider this case due to the lack of empirical evidence. I hope you are aware of empirical evidence.Thanks
@shobyms .. Are you aware of "empirical evidence", because so far you haven't given any other than WIKI. Wiki is not proof buddy. You do know that anyone can post stuff on Wiki, right. So why don't you try to refute Sinensisserpenti's evidence, that's why i thought, you got nothin. Done with this guy.
@shobyms ...If it make you happy that KALARIPAYATTU IS STEALING FROM KUNG FU, by all means be happy. It's a shame & an embarrassment in my opinion, considering that Kalaripayattu is a beautiful art on it's own. They don't need to steal from KungFu or any other martial arts. They can build their own reputation & credibility, without stealing from KungFu's or any other martial art's reputation & credibility.
@shobyms ..Why would any martial arts come out & make up a LIE & say that they invented martial arts or they're "the mother of all martial arts" & KungFu came from them, without any factual credible proof & doesn't even have any similarities with KungFu or any other martial arts at all. Other than to steal & capitalize from KungFu's reputation & credibility. It would've been more respectful & honorable if they simply said that Kalaripayattu is a unique and original Indian martial arts.
@shobyms You do know what empirical evidence means right? Because you have said this before every time I present you with empirical evidence you Ignore it because you are not able to refute it. But here goes again.
@shobyms According to the ShiJi (Records of the Grand Historian) written109B.C.-91B.C. King Wu Yi (ruled 1147B.C.-1112B.C.)created the Ou Ren (Wooden Man) for the practice of Shou Bo (Hand Striking) Shou Bo is an ancient name for Kung Fu and was still used in parts of China and Korea through the beginning of the 20th century. During the middle and early parts of the 20th century it was believed that Sima Qian could not possibly have reliable records of the Shang dynasty.
@TheaSinensisSerpenti show me the reference list at least. reference link/s. I need a veracious data that back up this above mentioned claim.Also, the era must be correct,it should not be a 'supposed or thought to be' like.
I didn't ask you for links or references when you made up that false claim about the Er Ru Si Hang. The fact that you are asking for internet links for the most famous history book in all of China is pathetic, do you want me to hold your hand while you go to the library too? 史記 殷本紀 (ShiJi YinJi) (Records of the Grand Historian Book 3 Yin(Shang) Dynasty Records) There you go
@TheaSinensisSerpenti I can claim that we have Kalari to Kung fu to link in an Indian language and ask you to find it on your local library. what an expediency! I love it! pmsl!
Why not you already claimed that the Er Ru Si Hang talked about Bodhidharma teaching KungFu, I didn't have to ask you to give me links or hold my hand and walk me to the library when I refuted that. The texts of the ShiJi are much easier to find than transcriptions of the Dunhuang manuscripts. So you can use an obscure manuscript that has only been recently discovered as evidence but I can't use the best known, most widely studied source of early Chinese history?
@shobyms Obviously you just assumed that I wouldn't be able to check your source or you wouldn't have named it in the first place. Since it is a book written by Bodhidharma's student's student, giving his biography and a description of his teachings. The fact that there is not a single mention of any Kung Fu, Yoga, or exercises shows that it wasn't part of his teachings.
@shobyms What about the evidence from the Book of Songs (ShiJing)mentioning king Wu of Zhou teaching his soldier pre arranged forms? James legges translation is widely available if you feel like checking it but I suppose you'll just ignore it like you did last time. By the way he also did a translation of the Book of Rites (LiJi) in the section on seasonal activities (First month of fall) it says that "Martial arts should be practiced to prevent crimes and evils"
@TheaSinensisSerpenti : book of songs has nothing relevant to any sort of 'Kung fu' than Chinese traditional stuffs such as shou bo or dancing. It is not even close to 'Lion dance'.Almost Kung fu like actions are verily notifiable during Buddha era or Silk route.
It is very clear that you want to corner me and thus shifting the burden. Once again, there is no relevant evidence to prove that Kung Fu existed back then unless you have a clear-cut one as Kung Fu = Shou bo or so on.
Are you really that stupid? Do you expect that ancient texts would refer to martial practices as Kung Fu? The Chinese have never referred to their martial arts as Kung Fu. The terms they used were things like Shou Bo, Bo Zhi, Xiang Bo, Wu Yi, Since Song or Ming times Quan Shu and Quan Fa, since the late Ming period Wu Shu has also been used, and beginning with the republican period Guo Shu. So I hate to disappoint you but all these terms = Kung Fu
SO if Shou Bo is not kungfu then you have lost your argument anyways. since almost every text from Song times or earlier that mentions Buddhist monks practicing martial arts refers to those arts as Shou Bo, or Xiang Bo. But the one thing that no text in any period of Chinese history call it is Kung Fu.
@shobyms Since you are obviously totally ignorant of Chinese culture, history, and martial arts I suppose that I should point out the significance of this. Even in modern times people in rural farming villages still set aside the first month of the fall (the end of the harvest) for martial arts practice. Just like they did back then, before the birth of the Buddha or any recorded contact with India.
@TheaSinensisSerpenti -> you are becoming a judge as well? you presented it and you are judging it! what an irony and expediency. Besides, gbb357's support as a proponent. Pathetic.
Even if it is 'Back then', do you have any substantial proof to validate that was related to 'Kung fu' ? The argument that you presented is flawed because you have no evidence.
@shobyms ...What's pathetic is that you keep changing the subject & you still haven't provided any credible proof other than wiki, your fictional book, with your fictional character. And why are you talking about Buddhism, when did anyone questioned Buddhism coming from India. And why couldn't the monks start KungFu without Buddhism, you're just making up another lie as you go along, LOL!!! That's pathetic! FYI, Buddhism & yoga does not equate to KungFu.
@TheaSinensisSerpenti shou bo to Kung fu ? generalisation.There is no existing record that proves Sou bo is Kung fu. Is there any comparative analysis regarding this? Are you seriously intending to generalise that wide? omg!
Maybe you should try learning about the history of China and it's martial arts before you say such stupid things. Kung Fu was called many names throughout history, in fact the one thing it was never called was Kung Fu. But ShouBo was one of the most commonly used terms for it up until the end of the Ming Dynasty. It's also what the martial arts practiced at Shaolin were usually referred to for most of it's history.
With that in mind, since you have repeatedly proven that you are ignorant of even the most basic knowledge of Chinese history and martial arts, and posses not even a single scrap of evidence to back up your claims, then why are you even trying to argue with me?
@TheaSinensisSerpenti ..So now he's asking for links, and yet he hasn't provided any links or proof either. Wow! This is what i mean by ignorance & arrogance, just like the Kalari community with this disgusting BS LIE.
@shobyms But since the discovery of the Shang oracle bones much of the information he presents has been verified. But of course something of this nature would never be mentioned in the oracle bones so the story of king WuYi is impossible to verify.
However the inclusion of the story of the creation of the Wooden Man / Wooden Dummy in the ShiJi proves without a doubt that the practice of Kung Fu as well as it's use of the Wooden Dummy was already considered to be extremely ancient by 100 B.C. So I have presented you yet again with proof that Kung Fu existed before Shaolin.
@TheaSinensisSerpenti 100 BC thing is not a credible proof to substantiate. Because Buddhism spread to China before than BC 100.Besides, through silk-route trade China benefited many from India.
So first you were sure that it was Bodhidharma who taught it, then Buddhabhadra, then Batuo, now you don't know who taught it, and you have no evidence but you're sure anyways? This is like arguing with a four year old over the existence of Santa.
He describes using a battle formation both the name of which and the description of which are copied out of a fictional novel from the Ming dynasty. The Next preface is written by a General under Yue Fei who just happens to be about the most famous hero in Chinese history. According to him he saw a monk who had been Yue Fei's teacher when he was a child give him the YiJin Jing, predict exactly how he would be killed then disappear into thin air.
He then received the manuscript after Yue Fei had been killed exactly as the monk predicted. Except we know who Yue Fei's childhood teachers were and none of them were monks. He also refers to the current emperor by his posthumous name. So did he time travel over 30 years into the future to learn the name given to the current emperor after his death?
Well why not? According to the previous preface it's writer time traveled into the future to visit unbuilt temples, hang out with fictional characters and learn battle strategies from unwritten novels. The monk who translated it from Sanskrit must also have done some time traveling seeing as how he did the translation hundreds of years before his own birth.
@shobyms What do you mean "show your fact sheet" me and other have put up tons of evidence yet you haven't been able to refute a single piece of it. Yet the only thing you have been able to put up as proof is the names of books which contain Bodhidharma's biography but no mention of Kung Fu or exercises. Which is basically just further evidence that he never taught either of those.
So By "Yes I do (Have evidence) but I'm just waiting to show it" you mean "I don't have any evidence but I don't want to admit that I'm wrong despite the overwhelming data. So I'm just going to pretend like I do and hope no one calls me on it" Right?
@TheaSinensisSerpenti : I have a question,when Wikipedia tells Cina is a sanskrit word and how come you twist it as 'thought to be' ? I do not find it is a genuine approach.
The word "China" is derived from Cin (چین).... The first recorded use in English dates from 1555.[29] The Persian word is, in turn, derived from the Sanskrit word Cīna (चीन),[30] which was used as a name for China as early as AD 150. taken from wikipedia**
@TheaSinensisSerpenti ..Now you see what i'm talking about. I mean he's actually asking you for 1000 records, while he has only shown you Wiki for proof.
@gbb357 read what others think of you: @gbb357 You obviously know what I mean, for the last hundred years the Bodhidharma myth has been wrongly accepted as fact by most people. If you want to change popular opinion you have to present reliable facts. But you've made it abundantly clear that you are only here to argue with, mock, and anger people and get off on the fact that you are "right" and know slightly more than the people you are arguing with.
@shobyms ...China or KungFu haven't made any claims because the common knowledge is KungFu is from China. When was the last time if ever anybody have made reference to India when it comes to KungFu. You're the one that's twisting everything. Again, you're making the claim & you're backing up that claim, it's you're burden to show proof and you haven't shown any other than a fictional book with a fictional character.
@shobyms So why is it that there have been many people who were able to put up huge amounts of evidence from scholars all across the world showing that the Idea that Kung Fu came from Bodhidharma or India is false. Yet for all the people who disagree no one has been able to put up one single piece of credible evidence to prove it did?
@shobyms Yeah because the literally thousands of references in ancient texts, and countless depictions in art that all predate Shaolin, many of which even predate the birth of Buddha or any recorded contact with India, doesn't count as evidence. I suppose the lack of one single piece of evidence that Kung Fu originated in India is just a coincidence?
SO basically we have thousands of records in ancient texts and art, peer reviewed studies done by respected scholars from all across the globe. V.S. a kid on the internet who claims he has proof it's all not true but just doesn't feel like showing it to anyone.
@shobyms I've already showed you lots of proof, How about you show me the "proof" you claim to have, or haven't you been able to find anything on wikipedia yet?
yea, this is legit, Buddhism is from India, and shaolin forms are from India, earlier forms
baqikenny 18 hours ago
@baqikenny ..Yeah, this is as legit as bigfoot.
gbb357 15 hours ago
@gbb357 lol, hehehehehehe
baqikenny 10 hours ago
@baqikenny There is some kind of connection since Kalaripayattu is from animal movements, just like Kung Fu. South India and China have been trading with each other since ancient times, it could be close to 3,000 years. Everyone traded with South India for spices and silk at that period in time. Fighting secrets could have been passed to each other. I highly doubt Bodhidharma brought this martial art to China since he was North Indian, so just Buddhism most likely.
JJMATHIAS23 1 hour ago
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TheUndertakerSaysRIP 1 day ago
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gbb357 1 day ago
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@TheUndertakerSaysRIP ..And you're just another ignoramus prick with an opinion that doesn't have any credible factual proof to back up this BULLSHIT BODHI LIE. Why don't you search the meaning of the word "FACTS".
gbb357 1 day ago
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Just watching any videos of KungFu or TKD videos, it makes me laugh how Kalaripayattu or any other Indian martial arts have no similarites whatsoever with KungFu or any other martial arts, not in form, technique, execution, and style. That's a fact, you have to be blind & stupid to deny it. Here's a couple of them. "Shaolin Monk vs Taekwondo Master" & "KUNG FU vs TAEKWONDO", these are demos, and this one, actual competition, titled "Kung Fu Master vs Taekwon Do Black Belt"
gbb357 1 day ago
So before jumping into a conclusion, please provide your arguments in detail. Otherwise,it is just a bias. You can not establish anything or make a point, if something is uncertain.Also,avoid generalisation,bias,suppression and even argumentum ad populum + argumentum ad verecundiam. Goodluck!
shobyms 1 day ago
@shobyms
I have already provided my arguments in detail. I have given you references, quotes dates etc. Rather than addressing the evidence I posted you have done the same thing every time. Rely on vague accusations of "suppression" "no evidence" "lying Chinese" "twisting" or call me a "Charlatan", "maverick" or "Liar" In the hope that you can steer the debate away from the fact that I have repeatedly posted proof that you are not able to refute.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 1 day ago
@shobyms
I have already given you ample proof of the existence of Kung Fu during the Warring States period. So you can either prove that the ShiJing, LiJi and ShiJi are forgeries or you can present evidence that Indian martial arts were introduced to China before the 6th century B.C. Good Luck!
TheaSinensisSerpenti 1 day ago
It is unbelievable that 'Lion Dance' and Kung fu-like martial arts existed al ready in India. Kalari has all the animals styles in fighting.However, Kung fu is rather modified and extended.There are many logical flaws when someone claim that Kung fu existed in China without any evidence. I do not accept any invalid proof, and calling me as an 'ignorant' because I do not concur with you is a suppression. you need to understand that we need to judge critically. So before jumping into conclusion..
shobyms 1 day ago
@shobyms
It's funny how you call all the proof I give you Invalid but you can't actually refute any of it. Then the only "proof" you have given is to lie about the contents of the Er Ru Si Hang, and to point out that Kalari and Kung Fu both have animal forms like virtually every single other martial art on the planet.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 1 day ago
@shobyms I'm not calling you ignorant because you don't agree with me. I'm calling you ignorant because you have repeatedly shown a total lack of knowledge of Chinese history, culture, religion, and martial arts.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 1 day ago
@shobyms
IF there are many logical flaws why can't you point out one?
China was the first bureaucracy, they kept records of virtually everything. Don't you think it's strange that there is absolutely no record of kung fu being introduced from india? But there are many records of Kung Fu being practiced in China before the birth of Buddha or any direct contact with India.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 1 day ago
In order to prove Kung Fu originated in China,one has to have at least --->1, Kung fu = Shou bou. 2, any veracious historical link that relates Kung Fu moves into the existed Martial art or customs then.
Buddhism never accept anything apart from Buddhist dogma. There is no way at all that Buddhist monks had to start 'Kung fu'.Before BuddhaBadra the First Abbot of Temple, Many Chinese were interested to learn Buddhism and had several connections. It is undeniable that Buddhism travelled to China.
shobyms 1 day ago
@shobyms Yes of course it's undeniable that Buddhism traveled from India to China just like it's undeniable that there were already well developed martial arts systems practiced in China long before it's arrival.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 1 day ago
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actually it was the Muslims of India who did martial art.
fat ugly hindus are fucking trash.
glower125 2 days ago
most of the basic moves of kung fu are similar to kalraipayattu ... kalari is oldest martial arts it is in existence from more than 5000 years .... it is believed tht it was thought by lord shiva the supreme yogi .. now if u want more proof study palegari leaves ... available
shriniize 3 days ago
@shriniize ..I've asked a friend of mine who is a practitioner of Kalaripayattu, to demonstrate kicks, & also asked him if he knows Tornado, 540, & your basic chamber kicks, side & front. None of what he demonstrated were any where close to what i demonstrated & he pretty much didn't know most of the ones that i asked for Even the most basic round house was off not to mention their spinning kicks The best way to see that spinning kick is in this video Kalarippayattu demonstration- southern style
gbb357 2 days ago
Bravo theasinensisserpenti! Damn, you really know your stuff.
gbb357 4 days ago
@gbb357
Thanks
TheaSinensisSerpenti 4 days ago
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fcuk you gbb ... not worth wasting time with u... ur just siht ....
plugspark333 1 week ago
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plugspark333 1 week ago
gbb357 you are not even fit to be a martial artist .. u dont even have patience .. you dont have guts to accept the truth ... u are just another bitch .....
plugspark333 1 week ago
@plugspark333 ...Oh the irony, practice what you preach bitch. What you consider the truth is nothing a big fat BULLSHIT LIE.
gbb357 1 week ago
@gbb357 and again i say .. thats not a kick... its a pre composed practicing sequence ...
NOT A FIGHT .. you stop putting wrong infos about these arts... you neither know kung fu nor kalari ... not even the real history. then why do u have to keep commenting here...
plugspark333 1 week ago
@plugspark333 ...LOL!!! It's called a fight demonstation you moron, and yes it is a PATHETIC RETARDED kick that's why the opponent blocked it. You're either blind, in denial, or just plain stupid, or maybe all of the above, to not see and say that it was a PATHETIC RETARDED KICK.
gbb357 1 week ago
@sayak912 ... thats right
plugspark333 1 week ago
@gbb357 .. hey stop giving wrong infos.. sayak 912 is right...
bodhidharman did not teach buddhism. he went to LEARN buddhism. buddhar is a different person and bodhidharman is a different person.. dont confuse...
buddhism is by buddhar and kung fu by bodhidharman
plugspark333 1 week ago
@plugspark333 ...WRONG!!! All of the websites including the misinformed WIKI have repeatedly stated that Bodhidarma who was meditating in the cave saw the monks being weak & out of shaped & that's when he taught them Buddhism, Yoga & exercises. Somehow, some idiot concluded that Buddhism, Yoga, & exercise equates to KungFu & that they automatically ASSumed that Bodhi taught KungFu as well. OBVIOUSLY THIS IS ALL A BULLSHIT LIE & A PROPAGANDA TO PROMOTE KALARI, IT'S QUITE DISGUSTING.
gbb357 1 week ago
The Shaolin temple C’han Buddhist monks, inheritors of Boddhidharma’s spiritual and martial teachings, by the present Chinese Government, is now open to visitors. On one of the walls, a fresco can be seen, showing Indian dark-skinned monks, teaching their lighter-skinned Chinese brothers the art of bare-handed fighting. On this painting are inscribed: “Tenjiku Naranokaku” which means: “the fighting techniques to train the body (which come) from India…”
sayak912 1 week ago
@sayak912 ..The only thing that Bodhi taught was Buddhism, Yoga, & exercises, nothing more, nothing less. That painting means nothing, and the monks doesn't have the authority in regards to the history of KungFu. They're beliefs is base a lot on Buddhism which has nothing to do with KungFu.
gbb357 1 week ago
@gbb357
There is no evidence that Bodhidharma taught an "Yoga" or "Exercises" That idea comes from the preface of the YiJinJing which is known to be a 17th century forgery. The story in the preface became the nucleus for the Bodhidharma legend and was repeted and expanded upon until "taught exercises which became the basis for kung fu" became just "taught Kung fu".
TheaSinensisSerpenti 1 week ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti ...I never said or claim there are evidence of Bodhi teaching anything. I'm simply saying that if he did, he only taught Buddhism, yoga, & exercise, nothing more. But you are correct, there is no evidence with those either, and there's even less evidence that he even knew any martial arts at all, let alone taught one.
gbb357 1 week ago
@gbb357
There are many many metions of Bodhidharma between the time of his death and the writing of the YiJinJing 11 centuries later. They all say that he taught Chan Buddhism, not a single one mentions him teaching anything else. The idea that he taught Yoga, Exercises, or Kung Fu is based on a lie, I.E. a forged "historical" document.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 1 week ago
@sayak912
The inscription actually reads "Quanpu Bihua" which translates as "Boxing Methods Mural". There is no mention of India or Indians on the mural, it is simply a mural showing monks of different skin tones practicing together. There is a wide range of skin color in China as there are over 200 native ethnic groups. It was only during the last century after the Bodhidharma myth had become widespread through fictional novels that people gave it that interpretation.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 1 week ago
idot, KUNG FU invented on orders of emperor HUANGDI 2600 years B.C, in CHINA, KARATE is from OKINAWA, JAPAN, KERALA is from INDIA, AHATI and LUTTE are from WESTERN AFRICA. CAPOERO is BRAZILIAN AFRICAN, so every place has its martial arts even FRANCE had SAVATE in old days
TheSushiraw 1 week ago 2
martial arts originated from Egypt.Just look on the walls of Egypt
sumer33ful 2 weeks ago
here is the real history in simple words
MARTIAL ARTS BEGAN AS 'KALARI' BY BODHIDHARMAN IN INDIA.
THEN HE WENT TO CHINA SPREADING THE ART.
CHINESE MADE USE OF IT VERY WELL AND MADE IT KUNG FU. THEY WORSHIP BODHIDHARMAN AS GOD.
BOTH THESE ARTS WILL BE ALMOST SAME AS EACH OTHER.
source:me, practitioner and teacher. kalari ,shaolin kung fu , etc.. thank you..
plugspark333 2 weeks ago
@plugspark333 ...Kalari has no similarities with any martial arts, especially with kungFu. If you watch the retarded pathetic kick on the video "Fighting without weapons, Kalarippayattu, Martial art, Kerala" at 1:56 of that video, you'll realize that it has no similarities with any other martial arts, base on that pathetic retarded kick, that no other martial arts would ever teach or execute. The monks are the only ones that "worship" Bodhi, not all of China.
gbb357 1 week ago
@gbb357 dont talk without info. u talk only by seeing that video.. its wrong.. and that thing is not a kick ... its a movement posture.... kalari is unique, from which shaolin evolved.. bodhidharman is a kalari martial artist and in earlier days, even shaolin had kalari, later on it modernized and got better. but the basic forms ans animal styles are common in both... u learn the arts and then talk .. not by seeing a video..
plugspark333 1 week ago
@plugspark333 ...Maybe you should learn how to read & comprehend before you speak. I specifically said to watch the video titled "Fighting without weapons, Kalarippayattu, Martial art, Kerala", and watch the PATHETIC RETARDED KICK on 1:56 of THAT video. That is a kick & a retarded one at that. No martial arts form, especially KungFu would ever teach & execute that RETARDED PATHETIC kick. I know enough martial arts to know that's a useless retarded pathetic kick.
gbb357 1 week ago
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plugspark333 2 weeks ago
martial arts originated from egypt to india then china,HA!!! YAH!!!!!
sumer33ful 2 weeks ago
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Shit, Indian has nothing to do with Martial Arts, who is so stupid to make this video to distort the truth?
IwasUnknownUser 2 weeks ago
Should be thankful to the Chinese for preserving that history (Bodhidharma), because the Indians had forgotten that episode.
KaluNazi 2 weeks ago
bullshit :D kung fu is by chines you die bitches.
AssyrianSoldier1933 3 weeks ago
India is a great nation and culture!
naaookametoola 3 weeks ago
First,you are talking about current martial art schools,but it was not the same in the past while Buddhism was predominantly practised in China.Second,there were no Kung Fu related Martial arts in China,that is for sure and you have no evidence to support it. The other Martial arts existed in China,had no structural relationship with Kung fu. Here,you need a comparitive study,not a youtube study. Then, you can not call anyone ignorant and arrogant when you need more illumination.
shobyms 1 month ago
@shobyms ..So there were other martial arts in China before KungFu, and yet Kalari is the mother of all martial arts that KungFu came from. How is that possible, and how do you know for a "FACT", that the other martial arts that existed before kungfu, didn't come from kungfu or kungfu came from those other martial arts that existed before kungfu? When you speak of something that has no factual credible proof but you present it as facts, that's ignorance & arrogance.
gbb357 1 week ago
@gbb357 you don't want to be a troll,do you? anyway DITTO. as long as you do not submit any empirical or factual evidence,then this case is a moot case.Otherwise,bring it on.. prove me that China had already 'Kung-fu' before Budha badhra or so. Just do not allege like 'China already had martial arts by showing some wrestling skills' because wrestling is not 'Kung-Fu'. Period! arrogance and ignorance are always on your side as well, but you failed to see it.
shobyms 1 week ago
@shobyms ...Again, I don't have to prove anything because i didn't make up any BULLSHIT CLAIM/LIE. I never claimed that KungFu is the mother of all martial arts nor did i claim that Kalari came from KungFu, especially when it's quite obvious that there are absolutely no similarities base on that PATHETIC RETARDED KICK from Kalari. The arrogance & ignorance is from Kalari to make up such BULLSHIT LIES WHEN THERE'S NO FACTUAL CREDIBLE PROOF, get it now. When did i associate KungFu with wrestling?
gbb357 1 week ago
@shobyms
Personally I would not care if KungFu did come from India. I think that Kalaripayattu is an amazing martial art and is a treasure of ancient Indian culture. I also will not say that I agree with gbb357 as I find many of his comments to be rude and uniformed. But the story of Bodhidharma teaching Yoga, Exercises, or Martial Arts is a myth.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 1 week ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti ...Yes i am rude, but only to those that deserves it. I will admit that i am quite abrasive with my opinion about this subject, and i don't have any excuse for it nor will i make one either. I'm just passionate about this subject only because this BS LIE is sooo disgusting & insulting to the martial arts world. If i have offended you with any of my comments, i assure you they weren't meant for you & i didn't mean to.
gbb357 1 week ago
@gbb357
What is being discussed here is the historical veracity of the assertions in the video. The reason I said that is that weather you think that a kick you saw in a video is "B.S." (or even the entire art of Kalaripayattu) and that it would not be done that way in a Chinese system has nothing to do with historical evidence. Emotions often run high in discussions like these. Bringing up things like that only angers people, turning it into an argument in which no one listening.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 1 week ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti ...The kick that i am referring to is not "BS", it's an actual kick that is executed by Kalari practitioners. I'm not implying that kick alone is historical evidence, but i am implying that there are no similarities between KF & Kalari base on that kick & other techniques in Kalari. That for me is proof. Techniques, execution, & forms matters a lot & proves a lot.
gbb357 1 week ago
@gbb357
Part of the problem is that people use these myths to prove the superiority of their art (or country). When you question the myths they feel that you are attacking their art (or country). That has no part in historical debate but when you bring up those things that is exactly what you are doing, turning it from a historical debate into an argument about the relative value of those arts or cultures.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 1 week ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti ...That is exactly the whole point of this BS LIE, to prove & to promote that Kalari is better & that India invented martial arts. Nothing more. It's kinda pathetic to take credit from another martial arts just to get recognition, IMO. By all means i'm not attacking the country or the people, not even the art itself. But i am attacking the BS LIE & the Kalari community or anyone else that supports this BS LIE.
gbb357 1 week ago
@gbb357
I happen to admire Kalaripayattu and I don't really care if you think it is B.S., that is your own opinion. But the opinions of me you or anyone else on this page on the relative value of these arts has nothing to do with historical fact and should not be part of this debate. I'm not just saying this to you but to everyone here, weather you like India or China better, If you are a master of Kalari, Shaolin or BOTH means absolutely nothing when it comes to historical accuracy.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 1 week ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti ..I admire all martial arts, but when any martial arts tries to take credit, or in this case, steal credit from another martial arts, it loses respect and credibility, especially when they claim to be better and claim to be the inventor of all martial arts. That's just arrogance & ignorance at it's finest.
gbb357 1 week ago
Comment removed
TheaSinensisSerpenti 1 week ago
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@gbb357
Those are people making those claims, not the martial art it's self. Besides many Chinese martial arts have oral histories that make false historical claims. The Shaolin temple it's self uses that myth to boost it's prominence and make money. Yes it's wrong, and it's disrespectful to the people who developed and passed on the art and to the history of the monastery. But it does not lower the value of the traditional Shaolin arts. The same thing goes for Kalaripayattu.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 1 week ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti ...Kalaripayattu is not BS, it is a beautiful art, but like all martial arts, it has it's flaws. That being said, their claim is nothing but a BS LIE. My opinion and the opinion of others, does not matter. What matters are credible historical facts, nothing else. This BS CLAIM/LIE doesn't have any credible factual proof to back it up. It is presented as facts without any factual credible proof, therefore it's nothing but a LIE.
gbb357 1 week ago
@gbb357
Well obviously we agree on that, but all I am saying is that getting in arguements about specific techniques is not productive. You might see that video and find that it has no similarity to Shaolin while other people obviously see a great deal of similarity. there can be huge differences between what two people see while watching a martial arts demonstration.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 1 week ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti ...There are obvious big differences between Kalari & KungFu, better yet, there are no similarities at all. That's the reason why i keep going back to the Kalari kicks. People can say what they want & see what they want to see, if people keep repeating the same lie over & over, eventually they'll believe their own lie. Like i said, just compare the demo videos of KungFu & Kalari, you have to be blind and/or in denial not to see the drastic differences.
gbb357 1 week ago
@gbb357
If you are trying to present people with proof that Kung Fu did not originate in India then stick to easily proven, unambiguous historical evidence. There is enough of that to fill several books. When you argue about the way a specific technique appears to you or call people names then you are arguing for the sake of argument. The truth is proven by methodical presentation of facts. Not by angering others so that they won't listen, even if they angered you first.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 1 week ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti ..Like i told shobysm before, i don't need to show any proof at all. I'm not the one that made a claim, if i claim that there's life in Pluto, i have to back it up. I can't defend that claim by simply saying "prove me wrong". That's my logic. But there's soo many evidence out there that i could easily look up & post. Angryazeanman have posted proofs repeatedly & so have you. The bottom line is the people that believe this LIE wouldn't believe anything else.
gbb357 1 week ago
@gbb357
When you say something that goes against what is accepted as common knowledge you need to show proof. When people first claimed the earth was round they needed to show proof because it was considered an established fact that the earth was flat. Unfortunately the Bodhidharma/Kung Fu myth has also been accepted as "fact". Yes there are many people who will never believe the truth.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 6 days ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti ...The common knowledge is KungFu is "ONE OF THE OLDEST MARTIAL ARTS", not the original or the oldest, but it is original on it's own, that's the common knowledge. This Bodhi myth didn't come into fruition till the early 19th century, i forgot the exact date, i'd like to say around the 20's. The conclusion of the research was simply based on assumptions & myth, not facts. Paintings of the bodhi with the monks does not equate to him teaching martial arts, that's a joke.
gbb357 6 days ago
@gbb357
Common knowledge is what ever is currently accepted as fact by the majority of people not what was accepted as fact over 100 years ago, and what is accepted as fact obviously is not necessarily fact. By the way the date you are looking for is 1907 when Lao Can YouJi was published.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 6 days ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti ...Before 1907, KungFu was already established as an original Chinese martial arts, that's the accepted fact & common knowledge way before 1907 & definitely way more than 100yrs before 1907. BTW, thank you for the actual date.
gbb357 6 days ago
@gbb357 You obviously know what I mean, for the last hundred years the Bodhidharma myth has been wrongly accepted as fact by most people. If you want to change popular opinion you have to present reliable facts. But you've made it abundantly clear that you are only here to argue with, mock, and anger people and get off on the fact that you are "right" and know slightly more than the people you are arguing with.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 6 days ago
@gbb357 You have also made it clear that you could care less about educating people. Unfortunately you don't actually know enough about the subject to put together a cohesive fact based argument to back up your stance. But your need to engage any one who comments here in argument for its own sake means that they are already to angry to listen when someone who actually can give them a fact based explanation makes a comment.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 6 days ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti ..Well said & i actually agree with you. But like i said before, you & others have presented arguments with actual historical facts, & i have presented simple logic. It doesn't really matter to those who believe this LIE, they're completely brainwashed with this propaganda & they're completely delusional. Which is fine with me because it shows more proof that this is nothing but a LIE because they can't come up with any credible factual proof to back up this BS LIE.
gbb357 5 days ago
@gbb357
There are many people out there who practice and or teach Shaolin and or Kalaripayattu who use this story as a source of pride. In their minds it proves that they are superior to people who practice other martial arts because they teach / practice the "original" style. Many have heard this story hundreds of times from their teachers or told it hundreds of times to their students. To question this story would cause them to question the omnipotence of their teacher,
TheaSinensisSerpenti 6 days ago
@gbb357
or force them to have to admit that they were wrong to their students. Many people also use this myth to attract new students to their art. I've seen it done many times even by people who knew it was a lie. Even the Shaolin temple does this, they have done extensive research on the history of Shaolin and are well aware of the origins of this myth. But this myth has also brought them worldwide fame and fortune.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 6 days ago
@gbb357
When I started practicing martial arts I believed this myth was true, it was presented as fact in virtually every book I read. Later when I started to really research the history of Chinese martial arts I realized that it was entirely made up, and quite recently in historical terms. Almost everyone hears and believes this myth when they start martial arts, and there are those who profit emotionally of financially from this myth who will never believe the truth, but some will.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 6 days ago
@gbb357
But basically what I have to say is that if you really think you shouldn't have to show proof or that no one will believe the truth anyways, than you are just arguing for the sake of argument. By doing this you are angering people and making them less likely to listen.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 6 days ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti ...You have a good point & you are correct. They're not going to listen regardless what proof you & i present. So yes i am arguing just for the sake of arguing, but also to point out this BS LIE that no one has any factual credible proof to back it up with. If anything, i'm simply calling out this atrocious & insulting LIE. It is what it is, and nobody can prove me wrong. If they're not concern of angering people with this BS LIE, why should i be concern of angering them.
gbb357 6 days ago
@gbb357
If you want to get in arguments with people or just get some sort of an ego boost by knowing you are "right" than there are plenty of places on the internet to do that. But personally I believe that while some people will never listen, there are others who are open minded and are interested in learning about the actual history of the martial arts they practice. In fact I know there are.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 6 days ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti ...I would prefer if they prove me wrong, i have no problem of being wrong, the truth & facts matters more. I wish i can be more reasonable or at least as reasonable as you, the fact is i'm tired of this BS LIE that is being spread around as if it is true. Especially when the only reason why this BS LIE is being spread is to promote their art & to get credibility. That's stealing & that's just sad & pathetic.
gbb357 6 days ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti It does not matter where it originated. That's true.But you can't disregard India's contributions to China ( including the country name -cina).
shobyms 6 days ago
@shobyms No I don't disregard India's contributions to China. India has made huge contributions to China in terms of religion, philosophy, technology, medicine, and many other things. But the story of Bodhidharma teaching Kungfu, Yoga, or any exercises has repeatedly been proven false, as has the idea of Kung Fu coming from India.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 4 days ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti repeatedly ? really? I can only see that in your statements,
shobyms 4 days ago
@shobyms
Yes there is evidence of Indian influence on Chinese martial arts and there is also evidence of Chinese influence on Indian martial arts. But both were in existence long before then.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 4 days ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti Chinese influence on Indian martial arts is rather recent but Indian influence is more ancient and pre-dates any Chinese Martial arts
shobyms 4 days ago
@shobyms
The name of China is thought to come from the Qin dynasty. According to multiple INDIAN Scholars the texts that mention the Cina are thought to refer to either a Tibeto-Burman tribe, or a small tribal kingdom in the southern Yunnan/Guangdong area called the Zina. Yes southern Yunnan/Guangdong are within modern China but at that time they were thousands of miles from China and would be culturally closer to the people of Assam than to the Chinese.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 4 days ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti 'Thought to have' = so not a factual one. Please read about 'Cina' more. Cina THOUGHT to have referred ? In that case, you are twisting it.
shobyms 4 days ago
@shobyms I'm not twisting anything, I'm just repeating the findings of Indian scholars who have looked into the matter. Personally I think you should read more about actual Indian history yourself, right wing propaganda isn't a reliable source of historical information.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 4 days ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti , that is such a suppression what you are doing.why can't we critically judge it. It is like ' English also originated in the US,not just in the UK'. I do not know how much you are into Martial arts,but animals styles of Kung fu can not be originated possibly.Moreover, both countries are adjacent. You do not need to show me or teach me any Indian history and implicitly point out that my knowledge is spurious and your's is 100%.
shobyms 4 days ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti Did you study any of these theoretically? How come there are animal styles and acupressure points in Both countries? What an Irony if it was originated in 2 places randomly! Also,these places are quite adjacent geographically. Ignorance or propaganda? This 'Yin-Jin-refutation' actually promoted by Chinese scholars and not by others.In fact,I am not surprised to hear when a Chinese scholar support their own country.
shobyms 6 days ago
@shobyms ...And what makes you so sure that the animal styles came from Kalari? Why couldn't the Kalari community simply claim their own martial arts instead of claiming that KungFu came from them, especially when there's no credible factual proof & there's no similarities whatsoever in form, technique, & execution. Why not make a name for themselves and earn their own credibility, why steal?.
gbb357 5 days ago
@shobyms ... One thing for sure, you'll never hear any other martial arts claiming that their art came from Kalari or that they have any relationship or similarities from Kalari. That's saying a lot. Everyone knows BJJ is based on Judo & JJ, TKD is from KF, and Krav Maga is a mix of several martial arts and you don't hear any problem with those claims because they're true, legit, credible, honest, & honorable. The Kalari claim on the other hand is an outright disgusting & insulting BS LIE.
gbb357 5 days ago
@gbb357 : Ok let's leave it all. I do not understand why you are here for? I have been reading your posts regularly for ages? I think you have some issues.BTW this is not a Chinese upload.
We already talked about those and its all over as bits and pieces. Can you stop generalising? 'Everyone' knows? so even a new born baby knows? First of all,I do not think you have personally experienced Kalari or any Vedic Martial arts.
shobyms 5 days ago
@shobyms ...Why does it matter if it's a Chinese upload or not. I honestly don't care & my only issue is this BS LIE. Yes, everyone knows the common knowledge that KungFu is from China. Only the delusional & brainwashed people that doesn't have any sense of logic & doesn't believe in facts that believes this BS LIE. They rather believe in a myth that is nothing but a BS LIE.
gbb357 5 days ago
@shobyms ...I'm here to dispute this BS LIE, & if you have read all of my post, then you should know by now that i'm not Asian, let alone Chinese. I'm an American with German heritage, & proud of it. I'm also into MMA with a background of BJJ, TKD, & FMA. I have seen Kalari in person, especially their kicks. That's why i know that it doesn't have any similarities with KungFu at all.
gbb357 5 days ago
@gbb357 : If a Chinese scholar proved it's all wrong and if it is not peer reviewed,then I do not worry about it much.China would even claim 'Buddhism' is a Chinese product.It is very clear that you will never leave this you-tube form because you have issues.Do you have any personal research to substantiate? or did you just copy paste the 'internet and wikipedia' ? In that case, enough said!
shobyms 5 days ago
@shobyms ..Only an idiot would think or say that Buddhism is from China, see how easy that was to be logical. Wiki, that's funny coming from you when everything you have presented is from Wiki, LOL!!!
gbb357 5 days ago
@shobyms
Do you have any personal research to substantiate your claims? Because the only "Proof" You have been able to put up were the names of several ancient books Known to be the best sources of information on the life of Bodhidharma. Only despite them having extensive biographies of him, there was not one mention of Kalaripayattu, Kung Fu, Martial arts, Yoga, or even any "exercises" of any kind (aside from sitting meditation) in any of them.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 4 days ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti wow.. u r really into this stuff... chill out bro...
zenith94 4 days ago
@zenith94
You're probably right, but honestly I find it disgusting that so many people defend this despite it being an obvious lie. I would be even more pissed if was Indian, with all the massive contributions India has made to the cultures of the world, do these people really feel that they need to make up and defend lies to be proud of their country? Kalaripayattu and Shaolin are both treasures passed down by by our ancestors, they deserve better than to be promoted through lies.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 4 days ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti Yes, I do.But I am waiting for the other side to show their factual sheet because no one begged here to refute it.But,you guys went on arguing about your Chinese origin about it.So the burden of proof is actually on you to prove that Kung fu originated from China.Even if we agree 'Yu Jin's excerpt is forged', you still need a factual corroborative data to back up your claims.
shobyms 4 days ago
@shobyms
Corroborative data? we're talking about a preface that was supposedly written in 1628 but makes reference to a temple that wasn't built until 30 years later, that the manuscript of the YiJin Jing left by Bodhidharma had been translated from Sanskrit to Chinese centuries earlier by Paramiti who wasn't even born yet. The person he supposedly received the YiJin Jing from (Quiran Ke) was a fictional character from a book that wouldn't be written for over 300 years.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 4 days ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti Not at all. We were talking about the origin of Kung fu or its primordial form.It turned out finally to check out the validity of Yi Jin Jing's corpus.
shobyms 4 days ago
@shobyms
Well as I already pointed out there are numerous record in ancient books such as the ShiJing / Book Of Songs, the LiJi / Book Of Rites, Wu Yue ChunQiu / The Spring and Autumn Annals of Wu and Yue, the ShiJi / the Records Of The Great Historian, the GuoYu / Discouses on the States, the HanFeiZi / Book of Master Han Fei, and many others. Not to mention the depictions found in art.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 3 days ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti you tend to be very sneaky.So I shall treat you as a 'charlatan' style.
shobyms 3 days ago
@shobyms I've answered all your question including about Cina, only you find it easier to pretend that I didn't. Because you are unable to refute the evidence that I have shown you resort to name calling. So if you want to call me "sneaky", a "charlatan", a "Liar", or say that that Chinese people are "Liars" because you can't address the evidence I have given without being proven wrong.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 2 days ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti you twisted it --> by saying thought to be,which is a falsified info.It is not thought to be. could you please refer wikipedia again.
shobyms 2 days ago
Comment removed
TheaSinensisSerpenti 2 days ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti...When this is the best response that he can come up with to debate you, despite all of the detailed & historical proof you presented,"by saying thought to be,which is a falsified info.It is not thought to be", that's when you stop & realize that you're dealing with someone that's unreasonable, no logic, & pretty much defeated. Not to mention that's he's a moron.
gbb357 2 days ago
@shobyms
No twisting things is when you claim that the texts found in Dunhuang by TanLin have records of Bodhidharma teaching martial arts, oh wait that's just lying
TheaSinensisSerpenti 2 days ago
@shobyms
By the way what would you call lying about the contents of ancient Chan scriptures if not sneaky? When I actually start lying about the contents of books, making up claims that I have evidence when I have none, then I would be a liar, maverick, or a Charlatan. But as of this point you are the only one who has done any of those things.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 2 days ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti : I have already put you under 'twisting-charlatan' list because you did not respond to me regarding 'cina'. Do you think that I will surrender to your mediocre comments that is already been twisted? respond to the origin of cina first and I will consider your other comments. Gbb357 is a desperate troll for the last 1 year in here because I have been dealing with this issue with him. Sorry,I am not a simpleton as you are and I know many mavericks.
shobyms 3 days ago
@shobyms ...LOL!!! You're calling me a troll, the irony, what's that saying again, "pot calling the kettle black". So where's your "EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE", EXACTLY, YOU DON'T HAVE ONE AND YOU NEVER HAD ONE. But keep sticking to your fictional story & fictional character, what's his name again, oh yeah, Bodhi. The man, the myth, the legend, the guy that lived for 700yrs in a cave, taught yoga & exercises, & then discovered KungFu. And Kalari was born, but they can't execute a basic kick, or any kick
gbb357 3 days ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti show me at least 1 empirical evidence.There is no empirical evidence so far so do not waste your time on internet. If you can bring out one,then I am more than happy to exposit and refute yours.Until then, it will be a moot point.No matter what you try,but I will not consider this case due to the lack of empirical evidence. I hope you are aware of empirical evidence.Thanks
shobyms 3 days ago
@shobyms .. Are you aware of "empirical evidence", because so far you haven't given any other than WIKI. Wiki is not proof buddy. You do know that anyone can post stuff on Wiki, right. So why don't you try to refute Sinensisserpenti's evidence, that's why i thought, you got nothin. Done with this guy.
gbb357 3 days ago
@shobyms ...If it make you happy that KALARIPAYATTU IS STEALING FROM KUNG FU, by all means be happy. It's a shame & an embarrassment in my opinion, considering that Kalaripayattu is a beautiful art on it's own. They don't need to steal from KungFu or any other martial arts. They can build their own reputation & credibility, without stealing from KungFu's or any other martial art's reputation & credibility.
gbb357 3 days ago
@shobyms ..Why would any martial arts come out & make up a LIE & say that they invented martial arts or they're "the mother of all martial arts" & KungFu came from them, without any factual credible proof & doesn't even have any similarities with KungFu or any other martial arts at all. Other than to steal & capitalize from KungFu's reputation & credibility. It would've been more respectful & honorable if they simply said that Kalaripayattu is a unique and original Indian martial arts.
gbb357 3 days ago
@shobyms You do know what empirical evidence means right? Because you have said this before every time I present you with empirical evidence you Ignore it because you are not able to refute it. But here goes again.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 2 days ago
@shobyms According to the ShiJi (Records of the Grand Historian) written109B.C.-91B.C. King Wu Yi (ruled 1147B.C.-1112B.C.)created the Ou Ren (Wooden Man) for the practice of Shou Bo (Hand Striking) Shou Bo is an ancient name for Kung Fu and was still used in parts of China and Korea through the beginning of the 20th century. During the middle and early parts of the 20th century it was believed that Sima Qian could not possibly have reliable records of the Shang dynasty.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 2 days ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti show me the reference list at least. reference link/s. I need a veracious data that back up this above mentioned claim.Also, the era must be correct,it should not be a 'supposed or thought to be' like.
shobyms 2 days ago
@shobyms
I didn't ask you for links or references when you made up that false claim about the Er Ru Si Hang. The fact that you are asking for internet links for the most famous history book in all of China is pathetic, do you want me to hold your hand while you go to the library too? 史記 殷本紀 (ShiJi YinJi) (Records of the Grand Historian Book 3 Yin(Shang) Dynasty Records) There you go
TheaSinensisSerpenti 2 days ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti that would mean you have nothing and get an excuse card from the 'youtube' discussion. goodluck
shobyms 2 days ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti I can claim that we have Kalari to Kung fu to link in an Indian language and ask you to find it on your local library. what an expediency! I love it! pmsl!
shobyms 2 days ago
@shobyms
Why not you already claimed that the Er Ru Si Hang talked about Bodhidharma teaching KungFu, I didn't have to ask you to give me links or hold my hand and walk me to the library when I refuted that. The texts of the ShiJi are much easier to find than transcriptions of the Dunhuang manuscripts. So you can use an obscure manuscript that has only been recently discovered as evidence but I can't use the best known, most widely studied source of early Chinese history?
TheaSinensisSerpenti 2 days ago
@shobyms Obviously you just assumed that I wouldn't be able to check your source or you wouldn't have named it in the first place. Since it is a book written by Bodhidharma's student's student, giving his biography and a description of his teachings. The fact that there is not a single mention of any Kung Fu, Yoga, or exercises shows that it wasn't part of his teachings.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 2 days ago
@shobyms What about the evidence from the Book of Songs (ShiJing)mentioning king Wu of Zhou teaching his soldier pre arranged forms? James legges translation is widely available if you feel like checking it but I suppose you'll just ignore it like you did last time. By the way he also did a translation of the Book of Rites (LiJi) in the section on seasonal activities (First month of fall) it says that "Martial arts should be practiced to prevent crimes and evils"
TheaSinensisSerpenti 2 days ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti : book of songs has nothing relevant to any sort of 'Kung fu' than Chinese traditional stuffs such as shou bo or dancing. It is not even close to 'Lion dance'.Almost Kung fu like actions are verily notifiable during Buddha era or Silk route.
It is very clear that you want to corner me and thus shifting the burden. Once again, there is no relevant evidence to prove that Kung Fu existed back then unless you have a clear-cut one as Kung Fu = Shou bo or so on.
shobyms 1 day ago
@shobyms
Are you really that stupid? Do you expect that ancient texts would refer to martial practices as Kung Fu? The Chinese have never referred to their martial arts as Kung Fu. The terms they used were things like Shou Bo, Bo Zhi, Xiang Bo, Wu Yi, Since Song or Ming times Quan Shu and Quan Fa, since the late Ming period Wu Shu has also been used, and beginning with the republican period Guo Shu. So I hate to disappoint you but all these terms = Kung Fu
TheaSinensisSerpenti 1 day ago
@shobyms
SO if Shou Bo is not kungfu then you have lost your argument anyways. since almost every text from Song times or earlier that mentions Buddhist monks practicing martial arts refers to those arts as Shou Bo, or Xiang Bo. But the one thing that no text in any period of Chinese history call it is Kung Fu.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 1 day ago
@shobyms Since you are obviously totally ignorant of Chinese culture, history, and martial arts I suppose that I should point out the significance of this. Even in modern times people in rural farming villages still set aside the first month of the fall (the end of the harvest) for martial arts practice. Just like they did back then, before the birth of the Buddha or any recorded contact with India.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 2 days ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti -> you are becoming a judge as well? you presented it and you are judging it! what an irony and expediency. Besides, gbb357's support as a proponent. Pathetic.
Even if it is 'Back then', do you have any substantial proof to validate that was related to 'Kung fu' ? The argument that you presented is flawed because you have no evidence.
shobyms 1 day ago
@shobyms ...What's pathetic is that you keep changing the subject & you still haven't provided any credible proof other than wiki, your fictional book, with your fictional character. And why are you talking about Buddhism, when did anyone questioned Buddhism coming from India. And why couldn't the monks start KungFu without Buddhism, you're just making up another lie as you go along, LOL!!! That's pathetic! FYI, Buddhism & yoga does not equate to KungFu.
gbb357 1 day ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti shou bo to Kung fu ? generalisation.There is no existing record that proves Sou bo is Kung fu. Is there any comparative analysis regarding this? Are you seriously intending to generalise that wide? omg!
shobyms 2 days ago
@shobyms
Maybe you should try learning about the history of China and it's martial arts before you say such stupid things. Kung Fu was called many names throughout history, in fact the one thing it was never called was Kung Fu. But ShouBo was one of the most commonly used terms for it up until the end of the Ming Dynasty. It's also what the martial arts practiced at Shaolin were usually referred to for most of it's history.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 2 days ago
@shobyms
With that in mind, since you have repeatedly proven that you are ignorant of even the most basic knowledge of Chinese history and martial arts, and posses not even a single scrap of evidence to back up your claims, then why are you even trying to argue with me?
TheaSinensisSerpenti 2 days ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti ..So now he's asking for links, and yet he hasn't provided any links or proof either. Wow! This is what i mean by ignorance & arrogance, just like the Kalari community with this disgusting BS LIE.
gbb357 2 days ago
@shobyms But since the discovery of the Shang oracle bones much of the information he presents has been verified. But of course something of this nature would never be mentioned in the oracle bones so the story of king WuYi is impossible to verify.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 2 days ago
@shobyms
However the inclusion of the story of the creation of the Wooden Man / Wooden Dummy in the ShiJi proves without a doubt that the practice of Kung Fu as well as it's use of the Wooden Dummy was already considered to be extremely ancient by 100 B.C. So I have presented you yet again with proof that Kung Fu existed before Shaolin.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 2 days ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti 100 BC thing is not a credible proof to substantiate. Because Buddhism spread to China before than BC 100.Besides, through silk-route trade China benefited many from India.
shobyms 2 days ago
@shobyms
So first you were sure that it was Bodhidharma who taught it, then Buddhabhadra, then Batuo, now you don't know who taught it, and you have no evidence but you're sure anyways? This is like arguing with a four year old over the existence of Santa.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 2 days ago
@shobyms
He describes using a battle formation both the name of which and the description of which are copied out of a fictional novel from the Ming dynasty. The Next preface is written by a General under Yue Fei who just happens to be about the most famous hero in Chinese history. According to him he saw a monk who had been Yue Fei's teacher when he was a child give him the YiJin Jing, predict exactly how he would be killed then disappear into thin air.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 4 days ago
@shobyms
He then received the manuscript after Yue Fei had been killed exactly as the monk predicted. Except we know who Yue Fei's childhood teachers were and none of them were monks. He also refers to the current emperor by his posthumous name. So did he time travel over 30 years into the future to learn the name given to the current emperor after his death?
TheaSinensisSerpenti 4 days ago
@shobyms
Well why not? According to the previous preface it's writer time traveled into the future to visit unbuilt temples, hang out with fictional characters and learn battle strategies from unwritten novels. The monk who translated it from Sanskrit must also have done some time traveling seeing as how he did the translation hundreds of years before his own birth.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 4 days ago
@shobyms What do you mean "show your fact sheet" me and other have put up tons of evidence yet you haven't been able to refute a single piece of it. Yet the only thing you have been able to put up as proof is the names of books which contain Bodhidharma's biography but no mention of Kung Fu or exercises. Which is basically just further evidence that he never taught either of those.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 4 days ago
@shobyms
So By "Yes I do (Have evidence) but I'm just waiting to show it" you mean "I don't have any evidence but I don't want to admit that I'm wrong despite the overwhelming data. So I'm just going to pretend like I do and hope no one calls me on it" Right?
TheaSinensisSerpenti 4 days ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti : I have a question,when Wikipedia tells Cina is a sanskrit word and how come you twist it as 'thought to be' ? I do not find it is a genuine approach.
The word "China" is derived from Cin (چین).... The first recorded use in English dates from 1555.[29] The Persian word is, in turn, derived from the Sanskrit word Cīna (चीन),[30] which was used as a name for China as early as AD 150. taken from wikipedia**
shobyms 4 days ago
@shobyms which in turn comes from the name of the Qin dynasty 300 years earlier.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 3 days ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti ..Now you see what i'm talking about. I mean he's actually asking you for 1000 records, while he has only shown you Wiki for proof.
gbb357 4 days ago
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@gbb357 read what others think of you: @gbb357 You obviously know what I mean, for the last hundred years the Bodhidharma myth has been wrongly accepted as fact by most people. If you want to change popular opinion you have to present reliable facts. But you've made it abundantly clear that you are only here to argue with, mock, and anger people and get off on the fact that you are "right" and know slightly more than the people you are arguing with.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 2 days ago
shobyms 3 days ago
@shobyms ...China or KungFu haven't made any claims because the common knowledge is KungFu is from China. When was the last time if ever anybody have made reference to India when it comes to KungFu. You're the one that's twisting everything. Again, you're making the claim & you're backing up that claim, it's you're burden to show proof and you haven't shown any other than a fictional book with a fictional character.
gbb357 4 days ago
@shobyms So why is it that there have been many people who were able to put up huge amounts of evidence from scholars all across the world showing that the Idea that Kung Fu came from Bodhidharma or India is false. Yet for all the people who disagree no one has been able to put up one single piece of credible evidence to prove it did?
TheaSinensisSerpenti 4 days ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti No one yet proved so far that Kung fu is originated from China.There is no clear cut evidence so far.
shobyms 4 days ago
@shobyms Yeah because the literally thousands of references in ancient texts, and countless depictions in art that all predate Shaolin, many of which even predate the birth of Buddha or any recorded contact with India, doesn't count as evidence. I suppose the lack of one single piece of evidence that Kung Fu originated in India is just a coincidence?
TheaSinensisSerpenti 4 days ago
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@TheaSinensisSerpenti Show me just one at least
shobyms 4 days ago
@shobyms
SO basically we have thousands of records in ancient texts and art, peer reviewed studies done by respected scholars from all across the globe. V.S. a kid on the internet who claims he has proof it's all not true but just doesn't feel like showing it to anyone.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 4 days ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti Show me your 1000's of records
shobyms 4 days ago
@shobyms I've already showed you lots of proof, How about you show me the "proof" you claim to have, or haven't you been able to find anything on wikipedia yet?
TheaSinensisSerpenti 3 days ago