Late, but yes, McRae as confirmed. ( 1973 Indy rookie of the year ) His design shows the diver at work well didn't it ? Car won Australian GP the year before at Sandown. (black then ) It wasn't a ground effects car, only the Elfin MR9 and the Gardos OR2 ran with ground effects as far as I'm aware. MR9 was Coper's last F5000 design with F1 style forward placed driver. Gardos was reworked to ground effects by Barry Lock. It ran the Arco Graphite series that way - owner / driver Barry Singleton
@gcmc2 The Elfin MR9 was the only true ground effects F5000 car but was very under-developed and never reached its potential. Garrie Cooper did everything off past experience, of which he had plenty, but ground effects required a much higher level of technical expertise than anyone in Australia had available to them back then. John Bowe told me how unstable it was under brakes, though it was quite well built. It would have taken years to develop but its potential was enormous. Sandown in <55s?
@Camerameister Well, yes and no. The MR9 was not the only true ground effects F5000. The Gardos OS2 was a ground effects car. I owned the car and it was reworked to the full ground effects concept by Barry Lock ( Kaditcha cars owner / creator and ex Mclaren engineer )
It all became an academic exercise as F5000 collapsed and F1 outlawed it. Believe me, Gary would have had no problem mastering ground effects. It was really not at all complex then. A friend of mine actually developed the process of measuring the vacuum effect along the venturis for tuning purposes.
@gcmc2 CAMS allowed ANF1 racing in 1980 under Formula Libre type rules which allowed F1, F5000, Formula Pacific, and even ANF2. F1 didn't "outlaw" F5000. Also there would be a lot of people who would disagree with the "no problem mastering ground effects" statement. There were certainly a lot of people worldwide and in Australia who didn't "get" ground effect whether it be the design of the venturis, the effectiveness of sliding or fixed skirts, or the general aerodynamic balance of the car.
@oldjonesfan Not really right. They ran as just what they were- F5000s. They ran together with smaller open wheelers but that wasn't new. F2 cars used to run in F5000 races / AGPs etc. Libre of course specifically excluded F5000s - it's for cars not otherwise classified. I said that F1 banned g/effects - not F5000. Finally, nobody who knows would suggest Aussie engineers wouldn't have mastered g/effects. Phil Harris in fact invented the method of measuring & recording the effect on the move
@gcmc2 Which bit isn't right? Prior to the 1980 Fomula Libre type Rules as far as I recall cars other than F5000 had to obtain the permission of the F5000 Drivers Group to race. If you were in this prior to 1980 you could confirm this? Libre literally means "freedom" and never excluded F5000 in 1980. With respect to the banning bit the way I interpreted your original sentence as it reads it appears to refer to F5000's demise and not the banning of ground effect.
@oldjonesfan Formula libre always specifically excluded F5000 cars. Check Ur CAMS manuals. My original statement said that IT ( g/effects technology) became academic because F1 OUTLAWED it & F5000 COLLAPSED U have it backwards again there. Early G/effects developed much further in sports cars than F1. Phil Harris was the chief engineer in Brabham's 2 Nissan sports car championships in the US & developed the system for measuring / tuning the effect right along the tunnels all aroung the track.
@gcmc2 1980 CAMS Manual long gone in Townsville floods (along with 1976 - 85 CAMS Manuals and other Motor Racing magazines). Didn't get it backwards "again" only just saying how I interpreted your statement when I read it. Never followed Brabham or Nissan Sports cars and as said never heard of Mr Harris but can't see them coming anywhere near something like a Frank Dernie and the 1981 FW08 in the last year of "full" ground effects (unfortunately without skirts).
@gcmc2 With respect to the "Aussie engineers" bit who would you regard came closest to "mastering" ground effect? Never heard of Phil Harris - what did he work on and where did he do his work and did he have access to a large scale rolling road wind tunnel?
@oldjonesfan Formula libre always specifically excluded F5000 cars. Check Ur CAMS manuals. My original statement said that IT ( g/effects technology) became academic because F1 OUTLAWED it & F5000 COLLAPSED U have it backwards again there. Early G/effects developed much further in sports cars than F1. Phil Harris was the chief engineer in Brabham's 2 Nissan sports car championships in the US & developed the system for measuring / tuning the effect right along the tunnels all aroung the track.
@gcmc2 I'm sorry, I have never seen your car and was not aware of it. I remember Barry Lock and his Kaditchas, especially the Formula Pacific and the Cosworth powered sports prototype he built for Bap Romano.
I tried to find pics of the Gardos OS2 but was not successful. What year are we talking? I would be happy to continue this discussion in a more suitable forum if you like. I have some photos from the era. I think I must have been the only F5000 fan in Melbourne at the time!
@Camerameister HI, the car is now in New Zealand. It was built by Jamies Gard for Don O'cullivan in 1974. It raced a couple of races with Howie Sangster. It was then run by Keith Poole ( Mark's father ) in 1976 for C & C autos. It passed then to Barry Singleton. I think you'll find some pictures at the oldracephotos site or whatever it's called.
@gcmc2 If you interpret "true" as "designed from the start as" then yes the MR9 was the only ground effects F5000. A "conventional" car modified to incorporate "ground effect" can't be termed "reworked to the FULL ground effects concept". You only have to look at the number of F1 cars in 1978 and even 1979 that were "reworked" that were complete disasters (eg Fittipaldi F5a). The other "reworked" ground effect F5000 that's not mentioned is Alan Hamilton's Tiga modified McLaren M26.
@oldjonesfanU're just waffling here. I said full ground effects CONCEPT - that means it took advantage of the g/effects design ( with sliding skirts ) I didn't say it WAS a g/effects car - I said MR9 was. And MANY small F1 constructors dogs, regardless of g/effects or anything else. The M26 is a F1 car by the way, not a F5000. U armchair experts sit there trying to look clever when U probably never even sat Ur tail in an open wheeler. A silly nobody questioning great designers & engineers ?
@gcmc2 I don't get what you are saying. Yes Alan Hamilton's Tiga modified McLaren M26 F5000 started life as an F1 M26 (can't recall it's chassis number and it's not on oldracingcars) but it raced out here as a F5000 after being modified by Tiga (hence my description of it as Tiga modified McLaren M26 F5000 rather than ex-F1 McLaren M26).
@oldjonesfan Well, it raced here but not all cars that raced in th class did so as F5000s... F1 cars & others did too. Cars like this aren't eligible in historic racing as F5000s as they never were actually classified as such. My main objection is to Ur suggestion that Aus engineers are not up to speed technically. That flies in the face of popular opinion. Aus has produced many superb intuitive engineers. Many at work in top level motor racing right around the world & receive high praise.
@gcmc2 It raced as a F5000. Bob Jane should have the log book as he bought it off Alan Hamilton in late 1981 in an effort to encourage AH to put Alfie Costanzo in a Tiga Formula Pacific. This is why it (the McLaren M26 5.0 Chevrolet to give it it's results title) and AC only contested F5000 races up the first Arco Graphite race in September 13 1981 as after that AC was in Formula Pacific and the AGP in 1981 was for FP only (owing to an agreement between the F1 Drivers Group and Bob Jane).
@oldjonesfan The car would not be recognised as a F5000 in any historic racing - nor would the Elfin MR9 or the Bartlett Brabham. The Arco series was the last gasp for F5000 as you say. It was really dead by then
@gcmc2 I'm interested to know why you say that about those three as they are all very different. In the case of the TM M26 and the MR9 is it based on the year they made their debut? KB's one off F5000 BT43 should be OK as it made it's debut in the UK in 1974 in the hands of Martin Birrane. It doesn't exist anymore (sad story according to KB). It was always erroneously referred to as an ex-F1 car but was a one off F5000 derived from the BT40 F2 car. The roll out photos used to be on the net.
@oldjonesfan Yes,I mean they wouldn't meet the 1977 cutoff. The Brabham doesn't exist any more as far as anyone knows. Bartlett says the car was supposedly confiscated in the UK by customs and disposed of some way or other. He says he can't be sure what actually happened but it hasn't been seen since.
@oldjonesfan Question; Alan Jones crashed T332C HU61 at Surfers Paradise (during practice) in Feb '77 driving for Theodore. Car was rebuilt for Arnold Glass with spare Lola tub and parts from Theodore. The car that Warick Brown won with at Oran Park in '79 (TV coverage/video on youtube) has the same unique triangle shaped rear engine cover supports as the Theodore car (visible only from rear). Brown's car appears to be carrying VDS livery. Was this the Theodore/Glass car rented/sold to VDS?
Surely these sad losers never driove a Supercab like our Aussie hero Peter Brock?
He was better than Fangio and Mosss
I read it in the Herald Sun
stephenbiboy 2 months ago
@stephenbiboy That was sarcasm/irony right?
5CGQ 1 month ago
best
noise
ever
swinegull 1 year ago 2
Does anyone know what the orange car with no airbox is? It has side pods and possible ground effects.
wingsandslicks 3 years ago
I think that it is a McRae.
BMC1100 3 years ago
It is a McRae cool car wasn't it?
finalmind 3 years ago
Late, but yes, McRae as confirmed. ( 1973 Indy rookie of the year ) His design shows the diver at work well didn't it ? Car won Australian GP the year before at Sandown. (black then ) It wasn't a ground effects car, only the Elfin MR9 and the Gardos OR2 ran with ground effects as far as I'm aware. MR9 was Coper's last F5000 design with F1 style forward placed driver. Gardos was reworked to ground effects by Barry Lock. It ran the Arco Graphite series that way - owner / driver Barry Singleton
gcmc2 2 years ago
@gcmc2 The Elfin MR9 was the only true ground effects F5000 car but was very under-developed and never reached its potential. Garrie Cooper did everything off past experience, of which he had plenty, but ground effects required a much higher level of technical expertise than anyone in Australia had available to them back then. John Bowe told me how unstable it was under brakes, though it was quite well built. It would have taken years to develop but its potential was enormous. Sandown in <55s?
Camerameister 1 year ago
@Camerameister Well, yes and no. The MR9 was not the only true ground effects F5000. The Gardos OS2 was a ground effects car. I owned the car and it was reworked to the full ground effects concept by Barry Lock ( Kaditcha cars owner / creator and ex Mclaren engineer )
gcmc2 1 year ago
It all became an academic exercise as F5000 collapsed and F1 outlawed it. Believe me, Gary would have had no problem mastering ground effects. It was really not at all complex then. A friend of mine actually developed the process of measuring the vacuum effect along the venturis for tuning purposes.
gcmc2 1 year ago
@gcmc2 CAMS allowed ANF1 racing in 1980 under Formula Libre type rules which allowed F1, F5000, Formula Pacific, and even ANF2. F1 didn't "outlaw" F5000. Also there would be a lot of people who would disagree with the "no problem mastering ground effects" statement. There were certainly a lot of people worldwide and in Australia who didn't "get" ground effect whether it be the design of the venturis, the effectiveness of sliding or fixed skirts, or the general aerodynamic balance of the car.
oldjonesfan 1 year ago
@oldjonesfan Not really right. They ran as just what they were- F5000s. They ran together with smaller open wheelers but that wasn't new. F2 cars used to run in F5000 races / AGPs etc. Libre of course specifically excluded F5000s - it's for cars not otherwise classified. I said that F1 banned g/effects - not F5000. Finally, nobody who knows would suggest Aussie engineers wouldn't have mastered g/effects. Phil Harris in fact invented the method of measuring & recording the effect on the move
gcmc2 1 year ago
@gcmc2 Which bit isn't right? Prior to the 1980 Fomula Libre type Rules as far as I recall cars other than F5000 had to obtain the permission of the F5000 Drivers Group to race. If you were in this prior to 1980 you could confirm this? Libre literally means "freedom" and never excluded F5000 in 1980. With respect to the banning bit the way I interpreted your original sentence as it reads it appears to refer to F5000's demise and not the banning of ground effect.
oldjonesfan 1 year ago
@oldjonesfan Formula libre always specifically excluded F5000 cars. Check Ur CAMS manuals. My original statement said that IT ( g/effects technology) became academic because F1 OUTLAWED it & F5000 COLLAPSED U have it backwards again there. Early G/effects developed much further in sports cars than F1. Phil Harris was the chief engineer in Brabham's 2 Nissan sports car championships in the US & developed the system for measuring / tuning the effect right along the tunnels all aroung the track.
gcmc2 1 year ago
@gcmc2 1980 CAMS Manual long gone in Townsville floods (along with 1976 - 85 CAMS Manuals and other Motor Racing magazines). Didn't get it backwards "again" only just saying how I interpreted your statement when I read it. Never followed Brabham or Nissan Sports cars and as said never heard of Mr Harris but can't see them coming anywhere near something like a Frank Dernie and the 1981 FW08 in the last year of "full" ground effects (unfortunately without skirts).
oldjonesfan 1 year ago
@gcmc2 With respect to the "Aussie engineers" bit who would you regard came closest to "mastering" ground effect? Never heard of Phil Harris - what did he work on and where did he do his work and did he have access to a large scale rolling road wind tunnel?
oldjonesfan 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@oldjonesfan Formula libre always specifically excluded F5000 cars. Check Ur CAMS manuals. My original statement said that IT ( g/effects technology) became academic because F1 OUTLAWED it & F5000 COLLAPSED U have it backwards again there. Early G/effects developed much further in sports cars than F1. Phil Harris was the chief engineer in Brabham's 2 Nissan sports car championships in the US & developed the system for measuring / tuning the effect right along the tunnels all aroung the track.
gcmc2 1 year ago
@gcmc2 oops - sorry
gcmc2 1 year ago
@gcmc2 I'm sorry, I have never seen your car and was not aware of it. I remember Barry Lock and his Kaditchas, especially the Formula Pacific and the Cosworth powered sports prototype he built for Bap Romano.
I tried to find pics of the Gardos OS2 but was not successful. What year are we talking? I would be happy to continue this discussion in a more suitable forum if you like. I have some photos from the era. I think I must have been the only F5000 fan in Melbourne at the time!
Camerameister 1 year ago
@Camerameister HI, the car is now in New Zealand. It was built by Jamies Gard for Don O'cullivan in 1974. It raced a couple of races with Howie Sangster. It was then run by Keith Poole ( Mark's father ) in 1976 for C & C autos. It passed then to Barry Singleton. I think you'll find some pictures at the oldracephotos site or whatever it's called.
gcmc2 1 year ago
@gcmc2 oldracingcars
oldjonesfan 1 year ago
@gcmc2 If you interpret "true" as "designed from the start as" then yes the MR9 was the only ground effects F5000. A "conventional" car modified to incorporate "ground effect" can't be termed "reworked to the FULL ground effects concept". You only have to look at the number of F1 cars in 1978 and even 1979 that were "reworked" that were complete disasters (eg Fittipaldi F5a). The other "reworked" ground effect F5000 that's not mentioned is Alan Hamilton's Tiga modified McLaren M26.
oldjonesfan 1 year ago
@oldjonesfanU're just waffling here. I said full ground effects CONCEPT - that means it took advantage of the g/effects design ( with sliding skirts ) I didn't say it WAS a g/effects car - I said MR9 was. And MANY small F1 constructors dogs, regardless of g/effects or anything else. The M26 is a F1 car by the way, not a F5000. U armchair experts sit there trying to look clever when U probably never even sat Ur tail in an open wheeler. A silly nobody questioning great designers & engineers ?
gcmc2 1 year ago
@gcmc2 I don't get what you are saying. Yes Alan Hamilton's Tiga modified McLaren M26 F5000 started life as an F1 M26 (can't recall it's chassis number and it's not on oldracingcars) but it raced out here as a F5000 after being modified by Tiga (hence my description of it as Tiga modified McLaren M26 F5000 rather than ex-F1 McLaren M26).
oldjonesfan 1 year ago
@oldjonesfan Well, it raced here but not all cars that raced in th class did so as F5000s... F1 cars & others did too. Cars like this aren't eligible in historic racing as F5000s as they never were actually classified as such. My main objection is to Ur suggestion that Aus engineers are not up to speed technically. That flies in the face of popular opinion. Aus has produced many superb intuitive engineers. Many at work in top level motor racing right around the world & receive high praise.
gcmc2 1 year ago
@gcmc2 It raced as a F5000. Bob Jane should have the log book as he bought it off Alan Hamilton in late 1981 in an effort to encourage AH to put Alfie Costanzo in a Tiga Formula Pacific. This is why it (the McLaren M26 5.0 Chevrolet to give it it's results title) and AC only contested F5000 races up the first Arco Graphite race in September 13 1981 as after that AC was in Formula Pacific and the AGP in 1981 was for FP only (owing to an agreement between the F1 Drivers Group and Bob Jane).
oldjonesfan 1 year ago
@oldjonesfan The car would not be recognised as a F5000 in any historic racing - nor would the Elfin MR9 or the Bartlett Brabham. The Arco series was the last gasp for F5000 as you say. It was really dead by then
gcmc2 1 year ago
@gcmc2 I'm interested to know why you say that about those three as they are all very different. In the case of the TM M26 and the MR9 is it based on the year they made their debut? KB's one off F5000 BT43 should be OK as it made it's debut in the UK in 1974 in the hands of Martin Birrane. It doesn't exist anymore (sad story according to KB). It was always erroneously referred to as an ex-F1 car but was a one off F5000 derived from the BT40 F2 car. The roll out photos used to be on the net.
oldjonesfan 1 year ago
@oldjonesfan Yes,I mean they wouldn't meet the 1977 cutoff. The Brabham doesn't exist any more as far as anyone knows. Bartlett says the car was supposedly confiscated in the UK by customs and disposed of some way or other. He says he can't be sure what actually happened but it hasn't been seen since.
gcmc2 1 year ago
@oldjonesfan Question; Alan Jones crashed T332C HU61 at Surfers Paradise (during practice) in Feb '77 driving for Theodore. Car was rebuilt for Arnold Glass with spare Lola tub and parts from Theodore. The car that Warick Brown won with at Oran Park in '79 (TV coverage/video on youtube) has the same unique triangle shaped rear engine cover supports as the Theodore car (visible only from rear). Brown's car appears to be carrying VDS livery. Was this the Theodore/Glass car rented/sold to VDS?
wingsandslicks 10 months ago
GOOD OLD F5000 GOOD JOB...
garybruce1 3 years ago
Thats brilliant footage!!.... Regards, Chris Hyde
slidey35 3 years ago