Jehovahs Witnesses, Stanley Milgram, the Nazis, and Obedience

[hocrusan]

for sure the friends from the cong of this disfellow miss her or him so much. And they will be very happy if their friend will try her or his best come humblely to the Jehovahs organisation. I know it, cause my mom and aunt are disfellow also. and I miss them so much.

[nathanaelstacy1]

@hocrusan In other words, you've used 5 comment spaces to admit that, yes, you would obey unquestioningly. Thanks for your response, but it takes much less space to say, "yes." ;-)

[hocrusan]

like what we have learned in the Bible. the Levi and the Priester have different oppotunities from the other tribes. and even for the Kings. the Kings are not allowed to do things what Levi and Priesters doing. Why? bec. so Jehovah God organised it. and we are a oranisation. humbleness is very important for us, we could simply be good but it`s hard to stay humble and to be humble.

[hocrusan]

JOrganisation too, we always get our spiritual fruit but sometimes we don`t simply understand it, but it doesn`t mean we will rebel against them. Bec we have or limit of understanding and each one of us is different. humbleness and thankfulness helped me to understand, what i didn`t understand b4. Showing it to his organisation means for me, that I will always be ready to show him my obedient and thankfullness to him.

[hocrusan]

It`s not bec the fruit is poisonous, bec rem what the angel did so they couldn`t drink the water of life. God want to know if they willing to obey him or not and respect his highest authority. Jehovah God cares those obedient and thankful one. we are free to understand alot of things and Jehovah God is willing to teach us. but still, we still have or limit.

[hocrusan]

as long that they will explain clearly and accurately from the bible, why not. I will tell you a story. Adam and Eve story. Gods forbidden them not to eat the fruit of knowledge between good and bad,, bec if they do they will die. why God will put those fruits near them, and its only a fruit no big thing.

[itpduder]

Hitler once said (and this is a basic quote) that Christianity is a protest against nature. Think about it. . . .and I'm not a Jehovah's Witness, but I have a high regard for their principles, a JW will not do the national anthem because of the idolatry. JW's were sent to camps. They were a threat to Hitler's want of obedience.

It is very difficult to no be obedient to authority, ESPECIALLY when in a group of people. For the 18 yr old German soldier, it was impossible to resist.

[MumblingMickey]

Did you know for example that 50% of American believe (after a few white lies from the Gov.) that there were in fact WMD found in Iraq!... pretty amazing that!

A combination of the story before... and the ongoing psychology after... has given 50% of a population a 'safe house' to continue to believe that they are somehow 'morally' right...

Milgram also gave a lot of governments a new tool! So did Nazi Germany!

[nathanaelstacy1]

I've heard that a large percentage -- perhaps 50% or more -- believe that there were WMD's in Iraq, but I haven't heard, and I think I'd need a source to believe, that such a large percentage believe that WMD's were FOUND there. (Being there, and being FOUND there are different things.)

[MumblingMickey]

its a common feature of being 'human' Milgram proved HOW humans are communal and answer to authority... we probably weren't aware HOW MUCH we do it... but without this property of humanity...there would also be no civilization, no mobile phones, no cars, computers, etc. etc. Although there would also be no religions either!

[nathanaelstacy1]

To some degree, following authority is a good thing. It's good to obey speed limits, not throw garbage in the neighbor's yard, etc... But some people -- perhaps most people -- don't know where or how to draw a proper line. Building a civilization is a different thing than annihilating a neighboring civilization.

[MumblingMickey]

@nathanaelstacy1 Well, I don't think it is a different thing... its governed by the same instinct... the desire to be part of the clan, tribe...etc. Fear of losing respect....

This is what makes humans work so well... yes that knowledge is abused... and more people should be aware that they are hard-wired to obey and respect those they fear or see as authority.

But without that instinct anarchy would ensue!

[sovern009]

@nathanaelstacy1 Obedience vs American Freedoom, Hummm...

[sovern009]

@sovern009 Dude. I know that; you're preaching to the quire.Tell these guys(JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES) their dealing with the "Lucifer Syndrome".!! They have no clue that their blind obedience to a bunch of old white guys and one token,is diluting what the Christ was really trying to tell them in the first place.

[secondwindrecords]

@nathanaelstacy1

I'm a Witness, and if an elder or the WBTS asked me to do something that contradicted my conscience, I would first attempt to objectively consider the matter through the bible to see if I've been mistaken, and then either change my mind, or refuse. It's easy to suspect that changing one's mind is a reflection of the obedience to authority. I have a serious problem with authority except God's and parents, & don't view the elders or society as authority. As for people being df'd,

[nathanaelstacy1]

Hey secondwind, if you really don't view the elders or Society as an authority, then I suspect one of three things must be true. Either you're a 'fringe' member, who stays on the edges so as not to attract too much attention; you'll one day be on youtube making 'ex-witness' videos; or you underestimate the extent to which you really do view them as an authority. All you have to do to become an ex-Witness is to disagree with them, and admit to it. If you wind up back as an exWitness, come say hi!

[secondwindrecords]

"all you have to do is disagree with them, and admit to it" - Elders sometimes advise people on matters of conscience, but you're not automatically df'd if you don't take their advise; say your flatmate is df'd. Should you move out? But if you find yourself disagreeing with say 607 or whether Jesus was the Messiah, and telling people so? Like a minister from a party openly dissing his own party line. If you don't leave, you're sacked.

[nathanaelstacy1]

According to official WT doctrine, second, if your flatmate is df'ed and you don't follow the elders' "advice" and move out, you *are* to be disfellowshipped, because you've failed to "Quit mixing in company." The only way you are to be able to stay living with this individual is if you can prove that you *cannot* do otherwise. Period. You're not even allowed to live with a df'ed adult relative by choice.

[nathanaelstacy1]

Oh yes, and if you refused to stop living in a household with a disfellowshipped person, after having been instructed to do so, you would also be 'promoting a spirit of rebellion' within the congregation. Thus, the congregation would need to be 'kept clean' of you.

[secondwindrecords]

Oh dream on...

[nathanaelstacy1]

Dream on? I invite you to ask an elder if this is true. Why not do so?

[secondwindrecords]

My wife rejected advise to move out from a df'd flatmate, and she was not df'd. You need to start questioning some of your own doctrines.

[nathanaelstacy1]

I saw your page -- promoting rock bands. That validates the first possibility also, that you're a fringe member. Strange combination, a fringe member who underestimates the extent to which he views the elders as authority... Or a troll.

[secondwindrecords]

Call me what you like..

[secondwindrecords]

You invite me :D

[secondwindrecords]

You are mistaken, and you are so by choice :)

[nathanaelstacy1]

No, I'm not. And it's amazing to me how many things Witnesses may be disfellowshipped for, and don't realize it. Ask an elder, if you like.

[secondwindrecords]

(ct'd) say hypothetically, my best friend of 20 years was just df'd and he didn't tell me. (This would be very odd. I'd say, 100% of the cases, he would tell me something beforehand.) I would indeed ask him after I got the news. What the hell's going on? :D and he'd tell me, and he'd know we wouldn't speak again until he's reinstated. I've realized some people have a fear of their own elders and of being df'd, and feel intimidated. But I don't understand it, and in my experience, it's rare.

[nathanaelstacy1]

And what if you felt your friend's offense was overblown? Or what if he told you he'd repented but the elders didn't believe him? Or what if he even said he'd been the victim of false testimony, but was disfellowshipped for an offense he didn't commit? Would you then openly continue to be his friend, and allow yourself to be disfellowshipped for it? Or would he still have to know that you wouldn't speak again until he's reinstated?

[secondwindrecords]

Are you aware that a JW can demand the whole committee be replaced with out of towners?

As for being df'd, I'd say it's overrated. If my friend of 20 years was df'd and he / I / both felt it was the wrong decision, ride it out. If it's drinking or extramarital sex, if he's living according to scripture, he'll be picked up again. I won't speak to him until then, and he should be fine with that. I am!, and I know people who were df'd and came back, and held no grudges.

[nathanaelstacy1]

First, if it's the wrong decision, how do you ride it out? Does he pretend to repent, either from an action he feels wasn't wrong or that he didn't commit? He can't just 'live according to scripture.' He has to *repent*.

Second, you said a lot when you said, "I won't speak to him until then, and he should be fine with that." Yep, sounds as if you really do underestimate the extent to which you do view them as authorities.

[secondwindrecords]

If he feels it wasn't wrong to fuck his best friend's wife, why would he want to be a JW?

As for how to come back into the truth - try it.

And it's completely my own choice not to speak to a df'd brother. You choose to believe otherwise; and of course you're perfectly free to do so :) I do like your video though. You are a thinking person.

[sleepybatman]

If you're interested in the psychology of evil as it pertains to issues of genocide/Holocaust studies, then check out David Waller's book Becoming Evil. It provides a very comprehensive explanation for ordinary people's involvement in committing atrocious acts of violence. I'd like to believe humanity is fundamentally good, but it is not always shown through our actions. Being cognizant of this fact is so important.

[nathanaelstacy1]

Maybe I'll check that out one day. Thanks for the suggestion... As far as being fundamentally "good," Idk. We've developed survival instincts that make us a sociable species. Sometimes that leads us to "good" actions, and sometimes to "evil" actions. We're kinda like matches. We can start fires for warmth and protection; or we can start fires to burn down somebody's house... If that makes any sense.

[PrintedTruth]

Hitler believed that the destruction of masses of people was a necessity so that those deserving could live in a utopian society. Sound Familiar?

[nathanaelstacy1]

Hehe, just a little bit. At least the Witnesses haven't decided to do the destruction themselves!

[secondwindrecords]

And a crucial difference it is, wouldn't you say?

[limiwa84]

What is it you're getting at here Nathan? WHAT "thing" would an elder hypothetically ask you that would go against your own conscience? Does this have to do with something in your own personal experience? Were YOU disfellowshiped and now a little bitter on the whole matter? I just feel your whole message here is a little vague. You seem to be saying that a JW would stand up to the Nazis but not their own elders. People are imperfect, elders included, but that does not change the truth.

[nathanaelstacy1]

No, actually I'm not disfellowshipped. Never have been... And the video is vague because it's dealing with a general issue, not a specific one. The question is just, would you or a hypothetical Witness be willing and able to go with their conscience and against the Society or Elders. That's all.

[limiwa84]

Okay, I understand. First of all, a christian (JW) will ultimately have to answer to God for any decision they make, whether that decision be following the Elders/Society or not. If (and this is extreme) an elder told me to go against a bible principal or command (do not murder), I would certainly refuse. Why? Because I'm rebellious? No, because it is against the BIBLE. We defer in all things to the bible, that is GOD's word. If it is on a small (petty) matter (no mini-skirts, no voting, etc.)..

[limiwa84]

(cont'd) than it is easier to cooperate, especially when such direction is backed up by sound biblical reasoning. Personally, Nathan, I have never encountered a matter in which I felt the society or the elders were asking me to go against my own conscience. It has been my experience that direction and spiritual guidance is given in a loving and logical way. I do NOT just shut my mouth and obey. I LOVE Jehovah and I follow the ones he has put in place to give spiritual "food" out of that love.

[nathanaelstacy1]

Well, that's good that you haven't been put in such a situation.

[MrExnihilo]

Social loafing?

[nathanaelstacy1]

Social loafing is kinda similar in some ways -- it's the tendency of people in groups to work less diligently toward a common task than they would have done working independently. This video is about deference to authority. Both social phenomena but a little different.

[Catch22here]

Very interesting

[nathanaelstacy1]

thanks.

[beroeanman]

That is exactly why I no longer associate with JW's... I was given a set of circumstances that grived MY OWN conscience. Since this was done at "High Level" I obeyed my own conscience... stepped down and out.

Why go back to a nest of vipers?

[nathanaelstacy1]

Understandable. In my view, it's troublesome anytime an adult is told, "Don't think, just obey."

[beroeanman]

OK.. for a minute I thought you were trying to say that JW's don't have a mind of their own... and in large part.. they don't.

Many WANT to be told what to do and don't have the functionality of well trained conscience.

In the case of the Philandering tendencies of the Elder you mention...uite right he should be marked after not responding to counsel. OK, the adultery hasn't taken place, but the scene has been set.

There are COMMANDS, LAWS AND PRINCIPLES. The WT wants balance maybe?

[nathanaelstacy1]

Well, yes, absolutely there are times when the society gives recommendations on subjects, and other times when they decline to even do that. The point of my video, though, was essentially to ask a hypothetical Witness -- we'll call him Brother Ordinary -- if one day the Watchtower or an elder gave him direction -- not a recommendation, but an order, with an implicit or explicit threat of punishment -- to do something Br. Ordinary felt was wrong... (cont'd)

[nathanaelstacy1]

(cont'd)... maybe Br. Ordinary even feels he can find evidence for his point of view in the Bible. But the authority of the society is telling him to go against it... What does he do? Would he defy that authority in the interest of doing what he really felt was just, or would he acquiesce to the authority (thereby searing his conscience in the process) and do what he feels is wrong?

[beroeanman]

... competitiveness and aggression that often goes with most sport and even intellectual pursuits. Especially,I add, in North America.

There are articles in Watchtower publication that show that a Christian's attitude is very much tempered by what meaning the LOCAL community puts on a celebration or event.

If it is still overtly religious or promotes war or aggression, a christian would decline to be involved.

Where law/command ends and conscience begins is however a VERY grey zone!

[nathanaelstacy1]

It seems you take quite a liberal view of Watchtower articles. In my view, when an article says something like, "A Christian who persists in [insert activity] after receiving loving council from the elders, would not remain in good standing in the Christian congregation," that's an indication a big black line has been drawn through the gray zone.

But I digress. None of this was the point of the video, and is not essential to the question. But thanks.

[beroeanman]

What is the question, Nathan? I have listed to the whole presentation.. we have discussed the dictates of conscience and the "herd" instinct that exists amongst JW's as others - what point are you trying to make?

[nathanaelstacy1]

When I said "None of this was the point of the video and is not essential to the question," I was referring to the debate over whether Jehovah's Witnesses are pacifists, or whether the Watchtower proscribed martial arts, etc. Your comments about the "'herd' instinct" and "dictates of conscience" were precisely on point to the video.

[beroeanman]

Nathan, I think you have missed the point in many Watchtower articles..

I once remember a kid in my home congregation, a few years older than me at the time, being counselled for playing in a Chess tournament at the local YMCA. This guy almost bust the MENSA richter scale. He was quite cut up about it because playing both the game and the location didn't trouble him at all...

When it comes to conscience I always felt that WT articles were aimed at overturning the "Spirit" of....

[beroeanman]

.. were always conscience matters.

4) My Father is a JW Elder and at 80 enjoys a good boxing match on TV.. as it is a "family" things for us.

And the example of the Israelites has everything to do with it.

Hope that clarifies, and I look forward to some current JW imput for you.

Best wishes

[nathanaelstacy1]

What some Witnesses do in practice is, oddly enough, not necessarily a good determination of what they're allowed or not allowed to do. I knew an elder once who used obscenities and was openly physically affectionate with another elder's wife -- doesn't mean those things are permitted. However, one point you make is excellent, that Witnesses are permitted to be with police forces when those forces do not require use of a firearm... (cont'd)

[nathanaelstacy1]

(cont'd)... If you have a Watchtower CD (which I don't) I'm sure you could find denouncements of martial arts and boxing going back quite some time.

Best wishes to you too.

[beroeanman]

Well things have changed then Nathan.. I haven't been an Active JW for 23 years.. perhaps things have changed.. and of coure, be careful!!--- different political regimes require different duties from their armies and police force.

1) In the USA I had a wonderful holiday with JW's in Florida - who owned guns for Agricultural purpose

2) A personal aquaintance was head of the Drug Squad in London, and I knew at least two other police officers, one a sargeant.

3) I Judo, Tai chi, TaeKwondo..

[beroeanman]

Just a correction there nathan & Jizus: Jehovah's Witnesses object on account of conscience and are certainly non-violent... however, they are not "Pacifists".

A JW has a right to defend self and family but will not participate in worldly conflict.. they view their baptism as a "VOTE" for God's Kingdom.. and will obey "Caesar" to the Nth degree as long as it does not conflict with the law of God.

The Nation of Israel was not Pacifist, and God is often referred to as Jehovah of Armies..

[nathanaelstacy1]

While it's true that Witnesses claim to not be pacifists, you are forbidden to own weapons, to train for combat (you're not even allowed to fence or practice judo!), to serve as police officers, or attend fighting sporting events. Witnesses have even been discouraged from carrying mace or pepper spray. You *are* pacifists... And the Israelites have nothing to do with that.

[Jizuschrist]

If you read Genesis 22:1-2 , The hole bible is themed on unquestionable subservience to the highest authority "god".

Then you have men claiming to be the appointed earthly "overseers" on behalf of that god, Who exert great control over the minds of their "flock".

It is a good thing that Jehovah's witnesses are none violent and pacifists.

[nathanaelstacy1]

Absolutely. We can all be glad when religions are pacifistic. Muslims, Catholics, Protestants, quasi-Christian cults, like the Branch Davidians, have all taught us what horrible things can happen when religious people take up arms.

[secondwindrecords]

Don't forget the columbine massacre, the manson family, most "serial killers" etc. Horrible things can happen when people take up arms, religious or not. There's no way I'd do military service, whether I was a JW or not.

[beroeanman]

Very valid question. Too many JW's WASTE the time of the Elders in their congregation because they fear the strenghth of their conscience.. I would offer to you, that a large percentage of JW's are ex-Catholics and have brought this subservient need to bow to hierarchy into their congregations.

You stand with your conscience before God... JW's at large pay lip service to the training of the conscience and many DO go ahead and obey instructions that they are uncomfortable with..

[nathanaelstacy1]

Thanks for your POV, beroean. Interesting.

[nathanaelstacy1]

1) "If the guys really [your] friend [you] knew what he was doing," -- um... Yeah, ok. So then you were the one who reported your good friend to the elders, right?

2) Yes, it was about blood. Some were, and some still are, made from blood, and some were, and some still are, injected into the blood. The facts are the same. Only the Witnesses' views of it have changed.

Basically, tony, it seems you avoided the question. But thanks.

[secondwindrecords]

1) It'd be enough to tell the guy straight: Sort yourself out.

2) And we see what happens when people refuse to change according to their new insights. This is a singular strength of JW's you won't find in many places. And yet people like to diss it. So be it...

I completely concur with tony... i didn't read the other comments until now. I'm probably wasting time here.

[tonyschmoeredux]

Sure. But I disagree with ur set-up premise of ur ques about being more inclined to defer to relig authority. If the guys really my friend I knew what he was doing. And if Im correct the immunization issue was about alledged blood involved. More of the things u refered to are conscience issues than authority issues.