So how do you know which ones are the results of human sin and blindness? I am neither bored nor depressed; I get bored with religious services and preaching. It's not impossible to make the claim that there is no god; millions do it and have done it for generations. They don't seem to live any worse than religious people, either.
@NixonisLord Sure its not impossible...I can say there's no blue cars, and live a great life too...but what is the truth? To say there is no god is a statement you can't prove from your world view. so if you understand what I'm saying, if you still hold to your statement, you are believing there is no god based on faith, not fact. congradulations your in a religion. the no god faith of atheism
@NixonisLord So you know there is no god? no wonder your so bored, and apathetic..do you know everything? I don't think so....IF there was an all knowing God, do you think he could communicate to his creation? in other words since we can't really know anything for sure could an all knowing God tell us something for sure? Then there would be certainty about some things..do you get get? Because from your world view you can't know anything.Do you get it? read this over and over until you get it.
@truth4U2C If an all-knowing god could communicate with his creation, why are there so many versions of religion? Why the stupidity over what's essentially unprovable? Either god doesn't speak up loudly enough for people to hear or you're all making a lot of nonsense up. I know I don't know everything; I know you don't know everything, either. I don't charge people money to tell them what neither of us could possibly know. Read that a few times until you stop bothering other people.
@NixonisLord Cool, let me explaine, many versions of religions are because of man's pride, sin and lies according to the bible. Since you agree that an all knowing God could comunicate with his creation, that then confirms that my world view has a possibility of knowing somethings for sure. Your world view can' t ever know anything for sure because it is rooted only in the natural. So your statement that you know there is no god, is foolishness.
@NixonisLord There for there is no hope in your world view, which explains why your so bored and depressed. I pray you learn something about how God put in us a desire, a hope, for somthing better then this fallen exsistence. Your presuppossion that there is no god, needs to be consider foolish in light of its impossiblity of making that claim. peace
Abortion is to kill tho,, but so is beeing pro the raging wars aswell. If you follow the standards regarding fornication and on marriage... it says its better to marry than to burn. OK if you marry you don't fornicate but yet it proves your weakness and carnality. You draw your line where you do, and someone else where he does. You are not responsible for anyone's sin but your own and partially your own children's from now and further on in life.
Gosh man. Open your eyes and heart. If there is a person with Gay feelings or even a lifestyle as that who know the Bible or perhaps even have a strong longing for God such as others, he or she knows what the Bible says. Then why make their struggle even worse blaming them even more. No real church will brand them as lepers and throw them out. Embrace them and love them too. Are gays an exeption from christ? Should they still carry their own crosses? If theyr not Christians so what? Love anyway!
@matereo Re-watch the the vid, I don't want to kick them out...what I don't want to do is make a place from them in the church...which if I understand Shane's point correctly is do except them as they are without repentance...if they just become repentant sinners just like the rest of us in the church, then there is no need to make a place for them.....then there is never any branding.....I agree real churches don't brand their members by what sin they were enslaved to in their past....peace
have you ever read Shane Claiborne man? Read the "irresistible revolution" , I am a right wing Catholic and I think that Claiborne makes a lot of valid, well thoughout points, so don't paint Shane to be some loose cannon nutcase.
@ns417862 I'm a believer in the Bible as the word of God...It is what is true, making valid points based on man's logic may speak to your politics, but it misses God's standard....If we comfort sinners, with loving words, and fail to warn them of the coming judgment we all face, we have not obeyed God or loved the unrepentant sinner.
I think the point that Shane Claiborne is trying to make is that we should attract the people that Jesus attracted. This attraction shouldn't ever be attained by diluting the truth. I think he is just saying that we aren't the ones to judge. All we can do is present the truth, show them what Jesus says and ultimately it's up to them to make that choice.
Truth4u2c, are you following Leviticus? Are you stoning mouthy kids, people who don't plant crops properly & those wearing cotton poly blends? Sending your daugthers to be raped? Giving all wordly possessions? If you're going to be selective, why choose just the bits that justify your hate? I mean, we all pick and choose, of course, because stoning is exhausting. Why verse yank that which justifies your hate while ignoring the more difficult task to "love one another as I have loved you"?
@aldralee I would like to think that the main point is that the bible is clear on what is sin, and likewise it is clear that we are to proclaim what Christ did for us on the cross, and invite all sinners to repent and trust the act of love that Christ suffered for us. My concern regarding Shane's teaching is that he decieves sinners into thinking that we don't need to "repent, " he seems to be saying lets make room in the Church for certian type of sinners..."unrenpent sinners"..........
@aldralee Note the pastence....1Corn 6:11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. So plaese look at the bible carfully and check my work, becasue I really to love sinners and want them to see that if we face God with unpaid for sins, we're in big trouble....You see I'm not judging I'm warning because I to will face the same judgment...peace
@AZ0960036 Matthew 7: - 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured unto you. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me cast out the mote out of thine eye; and lo, the beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye Note yes we are warned, not to judge, but then Jesus teaches us to first deal with ourselves, SO we can do a better job of judging your brother. I'm not in the video sharing my Opinion. I support every thing I say with the word of God.
So instead of discounting all I say in the video, becasue you think I'm a hypocrite, ask the question is what I say or what Shane says line up with scripture? In other words we both can't be right....peace
ughh this is ridiculous people wake up!! How can you not understand this. He is not judging fundamentalists, but rather pointing out where he believes they are wrong. Each denomination points out where they differ with others and try their best to back up their belief. But also anyone who is perfect and holy in the eyes of the Lord cast the first stone at those practicing homosexuality, if not don't persecute them and judge them. The church better start loving or it will lose legitimacy.
@KFCBUCKETS The true isuse is what does the bible say. The Bible clearly calls for us to invite sinners, (that's everyone) to repent and trust in the Lord Jesus's work on the cross. Not make a place inside the church with out repentance. The Church is not judging, It's warning of a punishment that will come. Sinners are already Judged and Condemned, according to the bible.
Jesus gives grace to the alduterous women, by not Condemning her, she was already judged. My desire to warn sinners, dosn't include persecuting them.
I get that Shane thinks the church is unloving towards Homosexuals, but he has missed the point and is not obeying scripture when he accepts unrepentant sinners into the kingdom of God. He's assuring that Homosexuals go to hell not heaven...
REV 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
I think Shane would say that he does his best to live a pure life and follow Jesus' teaching personally, but that judging others falls outside the remit of being a Christian. In John 8:15, Jesus says to the Pharisees, "You judge by human standards; I pass judgement on no-one." If Jesus chose not to judge, then neither should we. To the woman caught in adultery Jesus says, "Then neither do I condemn you." If Jesus chose not to judge then neither should we.
@SmartStr33t In scripture we are told to "rightly judge" Mathew 7, but even if that we'nt so and we follow your understanding, then Shane is guilty of judging Fundamentist, I'm definding fundamentalists....That's great Shane is doing his best, so are fundamentalist, his pride to behave as if he knows something new can be seen in this vid.....Its in great humillity that I pray for Shane to love the Church, and not tear it apart for his glory...peace
@truth4U2C I agree with all you say and respect you as a christian, but I find the idea of making a video to criticise a Christian brother to be counter-intuitive. Especially when Shane exudes such love, joy and peace and enthusiasm for Jesus. I think we should follow his example towards the poor rather than criticise on Youtube which confirms to the world that Christians are a contrary bunch who don't even accept each other, so what hope do they have of being accepted?
@SmartStr33t Talorance is what the world holds up so high, that it misses the truth. As followers of Jesus Christ we are called to up hold truth over each other and encourage each other to God's higher standard found in the bible. Once again you point our me as being counter-intuitive, but Shane's confussing statement about fundamentalist is not counter-intuitive? The world must see us as summitted to God's word, in love, and patience. Being in a post modern culture, the world views all...
truth as realitive. Our love for the lost should have a purpose to lead them to the cross. This involves telling them the bad news that they are a sinner in need of a savior, before they hear the good news of God's love for them. The world may be looking for acceptance, but it needs forgivness, we (as the church) don't accept the lost into the church, we love and talorate each other like subjects live under a loving King. Peace
@truth4U2C I think when the world looks at the church it should see love first as 'God is love'. I know that also Jesus described himself as 'the Way, the Truth and the Life', but as I already mentioned in John 8:15 he said he chose not to judge us, even though he is the Truth.
Also the bible doesn't say give people bad news first. People attracted to Jesus were already painfully aware of their shortcomings, he didn't need to point them out.
@SmartStr33t John 8:15 has to do with Jesus's testimony about himself, read it in context, and in diferant verions of scripture to come to a better understanding of what Jesus is saying. Sure the bible doesn't say in one passage "give people bad news first" but this theme is all over the bible, the "Woman at the well" Rich young ruler" Old Testiment "LAW" New Teatiment "GRACE" Galatians 3:24 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Peace..
I really appreciated your video. Being as I'm a bit familiar with Shane's thought, I imagine that his thought is something like following: homosexuality is a sin that has been arbitrarily elevated by mainstream evangelicals as being somehow worse than other sins which the bible speaks out on (i.e. judgementalism). But he lost his judgementalism when he decided to follow Jesus' example and connect with people who are marginalized (i.e. homosexuals).
@fenoglios I think you have the right idea, but consider the fact that the homosexual movement makes evangelicals look like they arbitrarily elevated the sis of homosexuality due to their attempt to be excepted Books, movies, mainstream media all deny what the bible says...One other thought, when Christians warn sinners of God's coming judgement, if feels like the Christian is judging them, but he not, he is warning them of the just judge that we all will face. peace
I hear ya. Homosexuals often misunderstand what's going on with judgement talk. It would be good if they knew God's judgement came from his love. But I have seen many evangelicals be unloving about it (i.e. sign says,"faggots burn"). They're bound to get defensive. I think that's why with the marginalized, Jesus always led with love and it was only after his love was internalized that repentance came up (i.e. Zachhaeus, samaritan woman, woman caught in adultry).
it seems as though you miss Shane's point. Shane is very pro-life and talks about hell more than most preachers. He is saying that his attitude toward how to approach, love, and befriend gays and those who have had abortions (sinners) was formed by a political worldview of hatred and keeping distance and oppression. He had "strong opinions" which were political. No one here is saying that fornication, killing babies, or homosexual activity is ok. Follower of Jesus=friend of sinners
@lucduchien If that were the words used, I woundn't have bothered posting this vid, he say says "Fundamentalist" and you are right he also says "Political" I show my confussion in the vid about this because a christian's world view should only come from the bible, not both. We are not to rip into the body of Christ with statements that put down some Christians (Fundamentalist) to lift ourselves up. He could of said "I was that republician"
The Bible makes (at best) 6 references to the sin of homosexuality. Yet around 3,000 on the sins of greed, selfishness and the importance of giving to the poor. Jesus himself made exactly no references to homosexuality and sin... it was that important an issue to Him!! Lets get homosexuality in true Biblical perspective here!
@willhum@willhum Totally agree with you, Adultery is far more being done then the sin of homosexuality, the world keeps pushing this issue (I think) to show Christians in a bad light, and for exceptance. Tell me what you think of a another vid called "God loves obedience"
On an ethical level, I'd compare you to a tapeworm. I'd love to hear your excuse for calling your hetero-lore history (Which is basically what fundamentalist Christianity is, among other things) something that is just and moral as an American citizen. You should hide and stay away from worldly phenoma, like speaking to responsible people, or displaying your conformist impulses to people with real social issues in their lives that require maturity to handle. Just a suggestion.
@kern0099 So your insults are to some how shut me up? By the way explaine "real social issues" are you sure there real? isn't the argument always been if we could just shup up those Christians then the social outcasts would have improved self esteem, feel better about themselves, and stop doing distuctive things to themselves? My concern is that it is real, not a constuct of religion, but a true going away from God's creative order...be honest my friend, I am loving you with the truth, Peace
@truth4U2C My self esteem isn't an issue, and neither is yours when speaking in the context of anything religions offer to society. Just to address your myth making..You are adamant about involvement in society when it goes directly against the tenets of your own religion, and then you can't handle the truth about yourself when called out on it. THEN you speak of being honest? Why would I come here to be dishonest about an issue that is important to me? Do you think I'm putting on a play?
@kern0099 1corn 6 9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Kern0099 Its simple, if I believe that the bible is the word of God, I would warn sinners of the coming judgement from God....If I didn't do this, I would either not really believe what the Bible says or I'm not obeying it because, I'm not loving my neighbor by warning them. I'm not making up a myth, please read the bible yourself..peace
@truth4U2C What makes you think I haven't read the bible? You're a new Christian, aren't you? Taking your baby steps, that thrilling ride of ultra conformity with something larger than yourself? Do yourself a favor and don't wish a man peace and condemn him to hell for what he is, since that would make you one of these: "nor slanderers nor swindlers" now wouldn't it? Ugh. Oh well, another pod person
@kern0099 Dude your anger has blinded you, slow down, re read my last statement, I'm in the same boat as you, I'm a wretched Sinner, I'm warning not condemning...the bible is condemning sinners not me...Peace
@truth4U2C While you ask me to slow down, you're saying to me stop completely. You need better self reflection ability before you call yourself a man who's involved in a spiritual endeavor. Accusations of anger to the party you're losing your ability to manipulate is the reaction of a child, after all.
@truth4U2C What you believe is irrelevant, the same as is what I believe. What you DO, is something you're liable for, do you understand? I can see a need here to keep things simple with you.
@kern0099 I'm consistanced in what I say, repent and trust what Jesus did on the cross, he did all the DOING, I'm just warning and praying for those who have yet to recieve God's gift., Peace
Teach me. In your obvious condemnation of sinful acts like fornication, homosexuality, and abortion, you point out that the bible calls on us to show them some "tough love". So when meeting someone who is dealing with sin, you would do...what? Would you eat a meal with them like Jesus? When you first meet someone, how do you tell them they are going to hell in a loving way? I am confused. Do you know a woman who has had an abortion?
@Mcfadr Telling someone the truth of course can be over a meal, and said with love, but it must be said if you truly love them. The gospel speaks to a person's conscience. yes, I've known many a sinner, including homsexuals and those who have had abortions, they are no differant then liars and thiefs, we are all sinners, so why treat them differantly? I'm wretched, I never want to forget my wretchedness, because its there where I meet other sinners in humble love & grace.
@geigeroo Nice twist on my statement, I said "in Humble Love" I was explaining the attitude we should have when dealing with sin.....I suck at humility, your welcome to pray for me any time you want...peace
You should take a little trip to Philly and see what's really going on.... Get off your webcam and actually go out and be with the people who are hurting, the destitute, the poor, the hungry...look up The Simple Way.... Go visit them.... I promise you will find something more than some guy stirring things up
@geigeroo Look I get it, I do see the importance of loving people to Christ, But if we don't finish the Gospel message, by warning them of the coming judgement from God, and just only feed them, we've only improved their life on their way to hell....
@truth4U2C who said anything about loving them to Christ? We are not called to "love people to Christ", we are called to love people. Christ didn't sit around and tell people about how they are going to go to hell, John the Baptist did. Not that it is not part of the Gospel, but to sit at home and make webcam videos against a guy who is just trying to live as Christ did is wrong. To judge him and tell him to read his bible is wrong. We are all called to different things, what are you called to?
@geigeroo Lets be fair here, it is Shane who first criticise "fundamentalism" granted the term fundamentalism has been vilified by the media, so now Christians are joining in the attack, but fundamentalism is for the most part has a rock solid view of scripture.
Please remember that Jesus says this about how the world will react to his massage 18 "If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
truth4u2c, i think you're missing the whole point. I think Shane is saying that it is more important to do the works of Jesus who never mentioned homosexuality nor abortion, but he mentioned about feeding the hungry and doing good for people.
@jimka2001 Luke 10:12 I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town. Jesus mentions of sodem to make apoint about how those towns who reject the gospel will be worse of then sodom. Sin is sin, I person will go to hell for telling just one lie, with this in mind we need to warn people to repent and trust in what jesus did on the cross for us. along with loving them with food...
@dustinstruthers I agree, that this subject is way over blown, and it looks like Chirstians are condemning. it is just another sin among many, but it concerns me Shane seems to want to accommanate this sin inside the church.
@dustinstruthers "I tend to agree with him that we spending too much time condemning and not enough time evangelizing," Evangelizing begins by pointing out, that we are already "Condemned" Revelations 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
@dustinstruthers Christians are to warn the unrepentant sinners of the coming judgment. this may feel like condemnation, because deep down inside they know they are...its why Jesus encourages us in Mathew 5 that the world Hated him first, the good news is only good, when you understand the bad news first...peace
I challenge you to actually listen to his sermons, actually listen. not just sit and be so quick to formulate your own arguments and disagreements, actually listen. he is saying that he was quick to judge those with sins, without realizing that their sins were no different then his, and they needed love not hate. if you believe he doesnt read scripture, please wake up. i challenge you to read the book Unchristian.
i cant tell you enough. he is not saying homosexuality is wrong. he is saying that as the church, we are singling them out, and the whole "God is a republican" thing is leading us to hate them, and look at them as the scum of the world, instead of loving them, and letting christ's love show them.. what is the christians world view, hate gays? that is not right. yes, gay is wrong, but, hating gays is just as wrong.. being gay is just as bad as greed, and pride, and yet we dont singleout the greed
The point he is making is not that homosexuality and abortion are wrong. he believes the bible word for word, and knows they are wrong. the point he is making is that it is not our place to judge them, or to hate them, or to say we are better than them. the point is, we are not to hate them, but to treat them with love. You cant just sit here and play a minute of what he says, and create huge judgments against them. not once did he say what they did was right.
@carletopres Christians arn't "judging people" they're warning people that God is a Just judge that will judge them....all man Kind is already Condemned...fall of Man...do a study on the concept of the "fear of God" read in your bible about who we are to have a health fear of.....peace
Right on borther. If I love the homesexual I will tell him the truth just as someone loved me and told me the truth. The truth may have angered me but unless I repeanted I would still be lost.
Dear Truth4U2C,agree with what you're saying,but recognise (as you mentioned in the video) your misunderstanding of Shane. Shane did not at any point deny homosexual acts/fornication as sin, rather he admitted the matter to be more complicated than he thought. He recognised that orientation is not necessarily sinful as opposed to actng on ir ("we can live without sex") Finally, abortion does not necessarily stem from fornication - rape? or a family unable to support a severely disabled child?
@aristottlesdeathwish We see Jesus go from the physical to the spiritual in the story of the woman at the well. "A golden opportunity" is not a sales pitch, it is transition that evangelist uses to show the lost their need....peace
Why do people twist the truth to make what ever point they feel the need to make. My question is: how imortant to you is the message from Matthew 22:34.
We do nothing to convert a person's thinking toward Christ. Only by living out His love for humanity, does humanity become drawn to His Spirit.
So when I read Irresistable Revolution, I was convicted by the Spirit how to love people.
BTW, on the whole 10 Commandment thing - read: Rom7:1-7, 2Cor 3:6-20, Eph 2:14-15, Gal 3:15-25, Col 2:13-15
@yantski Glad you included Gal 3:24, read all of chapter 3, note how the Law leads us to live by faith, My concern with Shane is he leaves out how the law teaches us that we are in trouble... (we need the cross) if he only shows a tolorant love, he is mis leading the sinner into thinking that God is OK with their sin life. He's not, we are all called to repent and trust In what Christ did on the cross. Then we are set free from the Law...Peace
@truth4U2C the important thing to understand is that the Holy Spirit has to be invited in to a person's life before He can convict a person of their sin. We do nothing of benefit to toss sin in a person's face before we offer the way out of it - they may not listen to us long enough otherwise.
@yantski Galatians 3:24 "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith" Is your Opinion? " We do nothing of benefit" beacuse the use of the Law to wake up a person's conscience is the purpose of the law... put in google "Hell's best kept Secret" listen to that message from "Ray Compfort" he does a real good job from scripture showing how to use the law while wittnessing...Peace
@truth4U2C In our society, we would be hard pressed to find someone who doesn't know right from wrong - the letter of the law. I would say a lot of people pretend ignorance in order to not deal with things. I also think people would be a lot more honest if they felt safe to confess to their fellow person. But self righteousness has replaced the fear of God with the fear of retribution and personal attacks.
@yantski yes, right on! the call for us as forgiven sinners is to warn of God's rightousnes that will demand payment for their sins. In Love we need to point to God, so they will take the focus off of themselves an on to God.
@truth4U2C In Ray Comfort's video, his analogy of the plane and parachute is pretty good. But the third scenario is: the flight attendant flings the door open, pushes the man half way out of it, and yells at him that he's gonna die unless he gives her what she wants then he can have a parachute.
The thing that caught my attention the most is the fact that Ray has a gift for preaching in that manner. I'm curious to see if the regular Joe could pull it off.
@soccerglib07 Yes I did listen, I questioned what he said, I admit in the vid that I'm not exactly sure what he meant, but what I did take issue with was his universal we're all excepted by God statement that contradicts the Bible. What's missing is the call to repent, may-be Shane, says that sometimes, (I Pray he does) but in all my reading, he call to repent and trust in Christ is weak. Peace
oh of course man, I totally get you, but for the longest time, i was in church smoking weed at the same time, it was something i had to overcome. they have to overcome it as well, it doesn't happen instantly, but i do agree that claiborne should definetely explain better what he means. he is a good guy at heart.
@mylovelydisaster Yes, Once in the building known as a chruch, they can hear the truth, but if we make a place for them as is...yikes! I like Shanes intentions, but we need to enourage him to love like Christ with the truth, Peace
he's not saying he's against anything. He's not saying his view of abortion weren't from the bible. he is saying, being totally against them is pressured upon him by political views during that time(most likely fox news because he was a christian, just not the way he is now). he now has learned, to not judge those people for what they've done. he is saying to love everyone the same. he's not against fundamentalism he is against them trying to make people conform to exactly what they believe.
@mylovelydisaster Well said but the issue isn't making everone the same it is "repentance" we are called to repent from sin, Shane wants to make a place in the church for Homosexuals? Look I'm not saying that Homosexuals can''t join the Church, I'm saying opon joining they would be Xhomosexuals who have left that lifestyle, just like Xfornacators, Xliars, Xtheifs, and any other xsinners who now hate the sin they once loved.
Very lawyerly cross-examination of Claiborne's words. What did Jesus say about the "lawyers" in your bible?
I think you're completely missing the heart of what Shane was saying. Which is what I would expect from a fundamentalist.
Shane is not saying that homosexual acts are biblically approved. He is saying you have to truly love someone before you can - or have the holy right to - call them to real repentance.
But don't sweat it... Pharisees always seem to miss stuff like this.
O.o? Which bible you using? I'm using King James Version.
Leviticus 18:22- If you read it as a woman without changing the context it states lesbianism.
1 Corinthians 6:9- The word isn't homosexuality it's "effeminate" which practically means if a man look or act like a girl your commiting a sin. >.> Doesn't really make sense when it comes to birth appearance. >.> Nor does it discusses anything about a butch woman.
The book your using is taking everything out of context.
Jesus said he who looks at a person with lust in their heart commits adultery, he who hates his neighbor is guilty of murder...So I say whe who is without sin cast the first stone.......Shane's not disputing it's sin he's disputing the way Christians treat fellow sinners....
I would encourage you to read Shane's book the Irresistible Revolution. It refutes 99% of your claims on him. You took a lot from a 4 minute video that wasn't clear and filled in the blanks (almost all of it incorrect). Anyway, you'll see what he's talking about in the book.
I think you point is valid, how ever I could say the same about his sloppy charge against fundamentalism which represents a large part of Christianity
1. cor. 6:9-10... seems like you can be homosexual, but not practice. i would think you would agree you could be a alcohlic, but no longer a drunkard. so what is the point your making?
The terms you have chosen don't square with scripture, note both Homosexual and alcohlic as words or concepts didn't exist when the bible was written. They soften the responsibility of the sinner, explain away, excuse, To Repent is to have a complete turn around, change of derection, change of Heart. If Shane conforts unrepentant sinners by saying God loves them without them repenting...What will God do? what dose the bible say? thanks for the comment, Bob
LOL, very funny, in other words you want me to shut up...I can also conclude that you think I'm 100% wrong....wow Most at least understand my concerns about the issue of repentance. Are you one of those who think God loves us just the way we are? or would you rather I just shut up...Peace
@truth4U2C God loves us just the way we are, but he loves us too much to let us stay that way. Repentance is a process. On an earlier post, I challenge you to find a church full of Xsinners.
@kjt9669 Repentance is a process...OK so does Shane think that Homosexuals need to repent? To be in repentance is a process, but if pastors like shane never call sinners to repent....there won't be repentance....
@dmillermusic , Call, encourage, warn, not sure if "call" hits some nerve with you that makes what I said sound unbiblical, but most of this blog has ended up about the act of repentance.
There is hell, that is for those who reject Jesus' sacrifice. When we look at the Bible and Jesus we see a stark contrast to the love that so-called ministers are giving. Like the Pharisees you are telling Shane his problem is interpretation, you tell him to take a new course. But you never say what that course is. Is it new christian t-shirts, and music or is it a revolutionary life that others are drawn to because of the love and prayer we pour out by not hating the sinner but loving them.
You have it backwards, The Biblical course that the fundamentaists folow is the course, It is Shane who is pointing out a new course, I'm defending, the old one that is being attacked. Look I like Shane, I like alot of what he is doing, but why along the way does he have to put done fundamentalists? I know the world, has made fundamentalism a bad thing by misrepresenting what they believe, but those in the body should know the bible and know that fundamentist are sound in their understanding.
Also you are not consoling and witnessing by saying man what a sin you just committed killing your baby acting all along like we haven't done a thing. We need real world theology, not this fundamental way of the master brow beating. Claiborne is rebelling against those like you who feel that telling people of all their sins will bring them to the cross while we act holier than thou. We bring others to the cross by being Christ to them, they need to see his love, like the women almost stoned.
"We need real world theology" What is your veiw on the Bible? I'm a wreched sinner, lost, deceived and on my way to Hell without the Holy Spirit's work in my life. like wise, consol wihout the bible is foolishness, without understanding what God tells us in scripture, we are of no use to the lost. It's insights on mans condidtion is what is needed, not some new movement based on some new tee shirt slogon. Please study the Bible, read Romans...its Law & Grace, adminestered in Love...
Haha, I have read romans a million times. It says the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is salvation, we are made righteous through faith, all the work of God, for we can do nothing to achieve it.
We are all fallen, therefore in grace, in love we reach out, not to judge but to tell of God's forgiveness, and we tell of the outcome if you reject it, but do it with compassion as Jesus did is all I am saying.
Bob, stop, thanks. You have seen clips, I dare you to meet him, I have and worked alongside him. Have you served out of America? Where was your education? Stop proof texting, I can cite Leviticus, and tell you not to eat crabs, shrimp etc. I can cite Paul to tell women not to talk in Church. Shane is rebelling against the fundamentalist hatred of others. Fornication is looking at a women the wrong way, cite Jesus. Why must we attack other Christians. He who is guilty throws first.
@scarroll48, It was Shane who first critizied Fundamentalists, his mis judgment is clearly seen here as he confussed the issues by saying it was political. Do you know who the fundamentalist are? Shane attacks one group of the body of Christ, you join in and say that group hates others...You have wrongly judged me...
I think this video doesn't take into account the significant historical-critical work done in the last 50 years of Biblical scholarship, or the movements in theology that have resulted largely from that work. The fundamentalist notion of what the Gospel is makes the conversation you are in a completely different one than Mr. Claiborne's conversation. The Gospel as "Jesus died for your sins so that you can go to Heaven" is just out of touch with the bulk of critical work regarding the Bible.
If you take an honest look at scripture, you'll see that it spends most of its time on the "one" subject of God's redemptive work. Shane and others in the Emergent Church movement want to change the Gospel into something its not. Just read Romans for yourself, not these new Christians who are twisting the Bible into something new.
Luther, Calvin, Spurgen, Shaffer, and others stretching over the last 2000 years have done a great job helping us to understand scripture, but first of all read it for yourself, Romans, Do the work for yourself, we're a fallen creature,don't trust Shane, Calvin, or even me, READ YOUR BIBLE!
An example- Proverbs 13:24 says "He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him." Christians long used this verse, and continue to use it, to justify corporal punishment of their children, saying that the Bible essentially commands that you beat (spank, whatever you want to call it) your child.
When scholars did historical-critical work on this passage in the original language, it was discovered that the "rod" mentioned refers to a shepherd's staff...
...a "disciplinary" tool used to guide sheep, never to strike them. The command to "read your Bible and see what it says for yourself" belittles the gravity of the fact that our Bibles are in translation from ancient languages, and that our culture is vastly different than the culture in which the biblical texts were written. Understanding the true meaning of a text comes from revelation no doubt, but it's a VERY slippery slope to presume that "what God reveals to me is the right interpretation
...must be right." Hitler, for example, had the Bible in hand, using weak theology and misguided biblical interpretation to announce that he was doing God's work by exterminating the Jews. The goal of those like Shane (who I don't believe would place himself among the Emergent Church movement per se) is to return to an early Christian understanding of the Bible, most specifically of the life and teachings of Jesus Christ, not to construct something "new."
Hitler, for example, yes very good, "weak theology" most the so called Christians of the day were deceived into going along with this new way of looking at how to love "your neighbor" except for a very small few like Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who held firm to the truth. new movements away from what the bible clearly says, should be concerning to the church,
Shane's Criticism of Fundamentalism is a very sloppy, confusing attack on the bible, not a political movement. Where will this new understanding take us?
...a "disciplinary" tool used to guide sheep, never to strike them" Never? then what makes it a disciplinary tool? Shepherd's would tap the sheep on the back to guild them back to the right path. Sure some people in the name of Christianity, use this passage to justify beating their children, but most Christians see this as an act of love, it is done in love, not anger.
Yet when the plot to assassinate Hitler in which Bonhoeffer was involved failed, Hitler took it as a sign that he was in fact doing the work of God, that God had spared him to continue the work he had begun. When the Church took up violence as its means to overthrow Hitler, the Cross lost. I'm not particularly interested in arguing with you, but Shane's video speaks out against a fundamentalist understanding of Scripture, not against Scripture itself. Back to translation, the example I used...
..wasn't particularly weighty; what if we were to see that "justification by grace through faith" in Romans wasn't written in reference to the justification of individual acts of immorality? Writers like Yoder highlight the fact that a careful look at Romans reveals the Jew/Gentile conflict within the church as the conflict at hand when Paul wrote about justification; not to mention that the modern notion of "self" just didn't exist. All I'm suggesting is that the Bible isn't as simple...
I love the last comment. I truly believe that reading the Bible is the best way to learn about God. Discussion is great too though. Iron sharpens iron, just as one man sharpens another.
You are arguing against things Claiborne isn't saying. He never says it isn't sin but taking these political stances prohibits unconditional love. By the way in his writing Shane talks about how the church is the answer to issues like abortion. If we love a pregnant mother and her baby enough to do help her through what can be a very tough time we can drastically reduce abortions. He is talking about treating others the way Jesus treats us. Thank God.
im not sure you completely understand what Shane is trying to convey, so i'd really recommend reading his book The Irresistible Revolution if you haven't already. its a pretty short read and quite interesting even if you don't agree with everything he's saying. god bless, brother
Shane has done more for the kind of people Jesus hung around with than most people in America who claim to be Christian (yet they are self-righteous hypocrites). And, Jesus loves the sinner, but hates the sin.
Right on! I do love what Shane is doing with the poor, But his attack on fundamentalist is confussing to say the least. Yes Jesus loves sinners, and he hates sin, but the bible clearly says Cor6:9-10, "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
Well, I agree with what you are saying; it just seemed like you didn't understand what he was saying. Yes, those things are bad, but some people condemn others without love (and what about "judge not lest ye be judged." ?) If a girl was raped and decides to get an abortion, for instance, there are many out there who condemn her to hell without any sense of empathy. I believe that's one of the things Shane was talking about. Showing love/compassion/empathy while trying to help the girl cope is...
... is what should be done instead of picketing and condemning all those who support abortion. That is but one example. The same concept should be applied to all the other controversies as well. Many throughout america are not being the loving and compassionate christian that they claim to be, and I think that is the fundamentalism that Shane is getting at; many resort to hate to get their ideas across.
Not to mention, but many don't grasp the concept that ALL sins are equally bad in nature. Murder is equal to theft and slander is equal to homosexuality, yet everyone likes to pick and choose and claim that some are worse than others. I have yet to hear about a petition to rid the world of porn, but yet there's nothing but controversy over abortion and gay marriage... What about adultery? That's not illegal. What about the 3% of the world hording 90% of the wealth? (I know thats not the exact %)
What about the 3% of the world hording 90% of the wealth? I've heard shane and others mention this before, what is the point? should we (the Church or Amierica) give money to hindus (for example) who let Holy Cows trample their food, so they starve to death by the ideas of their false religion? or should we proclaim the gospel to them in hopes that the Holy Spirit will change their hearts to Christ so that their Heavenly father will show them his love and take care of them?
Yet another confusing point you bring forth, Who is Shane really talking about in this Vid? From the bible I believe the great commission, to tell people about what Christ did on the cross for them. because you can't legistate morality. True fundamentalist know this fact, and leave the converting to he Holy Spirit. Those who picket I don't think condem, their main measage is that it is murder, forgiveness is available. Picketing is not a biblicaly model, if those picketing offer the Gospel...
Then I believe God would recieve Glory and souls would be saved. If your doing Gods work here on earth, it is clearly to proclaim the gospel. Shane seems to mix polotics with his view of scripture. Who is he talking to here? the Church or the country?
That is good if people do it for the glory of God. I'm not against that.
What I'm against is hypocrisy, particluarly within the american church. I also think that may be what Shane was speaking to/about.
No, picketing itself isn't the problem; it's picketing and yelling through a megaphone that everyone is going to hell with not a single smiling face or glimpse of joy to be seen within the crowd, no love or compassion shown for the people on the other side...
Is Claiborne not saying that many Christians have begun to Hate the Sinner not the Sin.Thus Condemming Homosexuals to Hell & portraying them as inherently evil without showing any understanding or forgiveness?So that the principle of:Let He who is without Sin cast the First stone is beeing violated. I mean what is the Greater sin? Stealing from someone, Lying to someone? These will actually cause concrete harm. If two men fall in love. It hurts no one else. So this sin seems lesser in extent
He may be saying that , to some degree, if that is his intent, he could have been clearer...All sin is mostly equal, and from Romans we see that we are totally fallin and without hope. God doesn't look at us as greater and lesser siners, What he does do is call us to repent and trust in the cross, I want people to know that God is Just and loving, he will judge us upon his standard, people don't like to hear this, but it is true, and is what makes the good news so good.
If Shane doesn't clearly convey the message of repantance to the lost he is doing them great harm by recieving them into the church as if God will totorate an unrepentant. sinner. We have to as gently as possible point out God's Holy nature, that will not stand sin.
Hey man, I believe 100 percent believe Homosexuality is SIN, but in response go watch his video where he talks in the discussion of homosexuality. NEVER does he say homosexuality is right. He says the our job is to lead them and let God do the Healing!!! Therefore he knows its wrong. Love is a movement in itself. We show the Love God will convict and lead.
Kelly, thanks for the comment, yes we are to invite unrepentant sinners into church! My point is about repentance, Your right on with Romans 2:4, but read it from Romans 2:1-15 I'm not passing judgement, If someone confesses a sin, I'm only warning them of the future judgemnt they will face from God, then encouraging them to repent and trust what Christ did on the cross. you see I know I'm a wretch, I know of Gods love towards me because of his act of love for me while I was still in my sin.
"Grace does not come at a price- we just have to believe".....Re study Gods word on this statement, I see over whelming evidence that we a are clearly called to "Repent and trust" repentance is not works, it is not a price...my point is we should value if (grace) because it cost Christ. Yes "believe" is part of salvation, but our faith has more demenions....
(not accepting sins, but people- because we are all sinners) watch the Shane Vid one more time...you are making my point, IS HE ACCEPTING SINS? look I hope I'm wrong, I really like Shane, but I love God's word more and must side with it, over Shane.....what do think? is he accepting sins? by not calling Homosexuals to repent?
Books, more then one?....You've made my point, The gospel is a simple message law, judgement, repentance, and grace, I've read alot of what shane has written, I love him, but he is mis-leading, and I fear he is comforting sinners, in their sin.
We as the church can not invite in unrepentant sinners into church, make them feel excepted, then to their surprise, when they die, be sent to hell by God who says I never knew you... God truly wants us to receive his grace, but we can not cheapen grace, it cost Christ, it comes with a price....
Are you saying no one in the church repents? Does the the bible call us to repent? If the bible says for us to "Sin no more" like in John 8, then we should encourage each other to repent.
Which "Dude" Me or Shane? In order to be forgiven, you must admit you have sinned, but if we don't tell sinners that they have broken the law of the Lord, they will think their OK, That is the major point I'm trying to make in this vid, In a very loving way we must warn sinners of the Judgment we all face. Hebrews 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
I would like to think the best of Shane, To be a fundamentalist is a bible believing Christian. I don't call myself one, due to the negative rap the world has given the term. The Bible should be over all our opinions, meaning If you don't agree with Shane 100%, is the area you differ from him base on him being not right with scripture? or is it only your opinion that is different?
The Bible calls us to die to ourselves, to me that means my opinion is not worth anything unless it lines up with scripture. Shane Criticizes fundamentalists, granted some fundamentalist need criticism, but what he does in this clip is clearly go against scripture. I have read Shane's Blog, and watched many vids, He is young, and I do pray for him, but he at this time is not speaking from a Christian world view.
So how do you know which ones are the results of human sin and blindness? I am neither bored nor depressed; I get bored with religious services and preaching. It's not impossible to make the claim that there is no god; millions do it and have done it for generations. They don't seem to live any worse than religious people, either.
NixonisLord 3 months ago
@NixonisLord Sure its not impossible...I can say there's no blue cars, and live a great life too...but what is the truth? To say there is no god is a statement you can't prove from your world view. so if you understand what I'm saying, if you still hold to your statement, you are believing there is no god based on faith, not fact. congradulations your in a religion. the no god faith of atheism
truth4U2C 3 months ago
Are you indoors? Then why are you wearing a wool cap? Can't afford heat?
NixonisLord 3 months ago
@NixonisLord Yes, I'm Bald as a new born Baby, and yes
truth4U2C 3 months ago
@truth4U2C there is no god and I couldn't care less if a man wants to sleep with a cabbage.
Religion is so boring. I don't care if it's Fundiegelical or "Progressive"-it's all boring and time-consuming and a waste of effort.
NixonisLord 3 months ago
@NixonisLord So you know there is no god? no wonder your so bored, and apathetic..do you know everything? I don't think so....IF there was an all knowing God, do you think he could communicate to his creation? in other words since we can't really know anything for sure could an all knowing God tell us something for sure? Then there would be certainty about some things..do you get get? Because from your world view you can't know anything.Do you get it? read this over and over until you get it.
truth4U2C 3 months ago
@truth4U2C If an all-knowing god could communicate with his creation, why are there so many versions of religion? Why the stupidity over what's essentially unprovable? Either god doesn't speak up loudly enough for people to hear or you're all making a lot of nonsense up. I know I don't know everything; I know you don't know everything, either. I don't charge people money to tell them what neither of us could possibly know. Read that a few times until you stop bothering other people.
NixonisLord 3 months ago
@NixonisLord Cool, let me explaine, many versions of religions are because of man's pride, sin and lies according to the bible. Since you agree that an all knowing God could comunicate with his creation, that then confirms that my world view has a possibility of knowing somethings for sure. Your world view can' t ever know anything for sure because it is rooted only in the natural. So your statement that you know there is no god, is foolishness.
truth4U2C 3 months ago
@NixonisLord There for there is no hope in your world view, which explains why your so bored and depressed. I pray you learn something about how God put in us a desire, a hope, for somthing better then this fallen exsistence. Your presuppossion that there is no god, needs to be consider foolish in light of its impossiblity of making that claim. peace
truth4U2C 3 months ago
Abortion is to kill tho,, but so is beeing pro the raging wars aswell. If you follow the standards regarding fornication and on marriage... it says its better to marry than to burn. OK if you marry you don't fornicate but yet it proves your weakness and carnality. You draw your line where you do, and someone else where he does. You are not responsible for anyone's sin but your own and partially your own children's from now and further on in life.
matereo 3 months ago
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matereo 3 months ago
Gosh man. Open your eyes and heart. If there is a person with Gay feelings or even a lifestyle as that who know the Bible or perhaps even have a strong longing for God such as others, he or she knows what the Bible says. Then why make their struggle even worse blaming them even more. No real church will brand them as lepers and throw them out. Embrace them and love them too. Are gays an exeption from christ? Should they still carry their own crosses? If theyr not Christians so what? Love anyway!
matereo 3 months ago
@matereo Re-watch the the vid, I don't want to kick them out...what I don't want to do is make a place from them in the church...which if I understand Shane's point correctly is do except them as they are without repentance...if they just become repentant sinners just like the rest of us in the church, then there is no need to make a place for them.....then there is never any branding.....I agree real churches don't brand their members by what sin they were enslaved to in their past....peace
truth4U2C 3 months ago
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matereo 3 months ago
have you ever read Shane Claiborne man? Read the "irresistible revolution" , I am a right wing Catholic and I think that Claiborne makes a lot of valid, well thoughout points, so don't paint Shane to be some loose cannon nutcase.
ns417862 4 months ago
@ns417862 I'm a believer in the Bible as the word of God...It is what is true, making valid points based on man's logic may speak to your politics, but it misses God's standard....If we comfort sinners, with loving words, and fail to warn them of the coming judgment we all face, we have not obeyed God or loved the unrepentant sinner.
truth4U2C 4 months ago
I think the point that Shane Claiborne is trying to make is that we should attract the people that Jesus attracted. This attraction shouldn't ever be attained by diluting the truth. I think he is just saying that we aren't the ones to judge. All we can do is present the truth, show them what Jesus says and ultimately it's up to them to make that choice.
DTelevision1 6 months ago
@DTelevision1 I hope that's the case....
truth4U2C 5 months ago
Truth4u2c, are you following Leviticus? Are you stoning mouthy kids, people who don't plant crops properly & those wearing cotton poly blends? Sending your daugthers to be raped? Giving all wordly possessions? If you're going to be selective, why choose just the bits that justify your hate? I mean, we all pick and choose, of course, because stoning is exhausting. Why verse yank that which justifies your hate while ignoring the more difficult task to "love one another as I have loved you"?
aldralee 7 months ago
@aldralee I would like to think that the main point is that the bible is clear on what is sin, and likewise it is clear that we are to proclaim what Christ did for us on the cross, and invite all sinners to repent and trust the act of love that Christ suffered for us. My concern regarding Shane's teaching is that he decieves sinners into thinking that we don't need to "repent, " he seems to be saying lets make room in the Church for certian type of sinners..."unrenpent sinners"..........
truth4U2C 7 months ago
@aldralee Note the pastence....1Corn 6:11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. So plaese look at the bible carfully and check my work, becasue I really to love sinners and want them to see that if we face God with unpaid for sins, we're in big trouble....You see I'm not judging I'm warning because I to will face the same judgment...peace
truth4U2C 7 months ago
Hey, brother. Do you see the log in your eye? There's one in mine too.
We should get these fixed.
AZ0960036 7 months ago
@AZ0960036 Matthew 7: - 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured unto you. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
truth4U2C 7 months ago
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me cast out the mote out of thine eye; and lo, the beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye Note yes we are warned, not to judge, but then Jesus teaches us to first deal with ourselves, SO we can do a better job of judging your brother. I'm not in the video sharing my Opinion. I support every thing I say with the word of God.
truth4U2C 7 months ago
So instead of discounting all I say in the video, becasue you think I'm a hypocrite, ask the question is what I say or what Shane says line up with scripture? In other words we both can't be right....peace
truth4U2C 7 months ago
ughh this is ridiculous people wake up!! How can you not understand this. He is not judging fundamentalists, but rather pointing out where he believes they are wrong. Each denomination points out where they differ with others and try their best to back up their belief. But also anyone who is perfect and holy in the eyes of the Lord cast the first stone at those practicing homosexuality, if not don't persecute them and judge them. The church better start loving or it will lose legitimacy.
KFCBUCKETS 1 year ago
@KFCBUCKETS The true isuse is what does the bible say. The Bible clearly calls for us to invite sinners, (that's everyone) to repent and trust in the Lord Jesus's work on the cross. Not make a place inside the church with out repentance. The Church is not judging, It's warning of a punishment that will come. Sinners are already Judged and Condemned, according to the bible.
truth4U2C 1 year ago
Jesus gives grace to the alduterous women, by not Condemning her, she was already judged. My desire to warn sinners, dosn't include persecuting them.
I get that Shane thinks the church is unloving towards Homosexuals, but he has missed the point and is not obeying scripture when he accepts unrepentant sinners into the kingdom of God. He's assuring that Homosexuals go to hell not heaven...
truth4U2C 1 year ago
REV 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
truth4U2C 1 year ago
I think Shane would say that he does his best to live a pure life and follow Jesus' teaching personally, but that judging others falls outside the remit of being a Christian. In John 8:15, Jesus says to the Pharisees, "You judge by human standards; I pass judgement on no-one." If Jesus chose not to judge, then neither should we. To the woman caught in adultery Jesus says, "Then neither do I condemn you." If Jesus chose not to judge then neither should we.
SmartStr33t 1 year ago
@SmartStr33t In scripture we are told to "rightly judge" Mathew 7, but even if that we'nt so and we follow your understanding, then Shane is guilty of judging Fundamentist, I'm definding fundamentalists....That's great Shane is doing his best, so are fundamentalist, his pride to behave as if he knows something new can be seen in this vid.....Its in great humillity that I pray for Shane to love the Church, and not tear it apart for his glory...peace
truth4U2C 1 year ago
@truth4U2C I agree with all you say and respect you as a christian, but I find the idea of making a video to criticise a Christian brother to be counter-intuitive. Especially when Shane exudes such love, joy and peace and enthusiasm for Jesus. I think we should follow his example towards the poor rather than criticise on Youtube which confirms to the world that Christians are a contrary bunch who don't even accept each other, so what hope do they have of being accepted?
SmartStr33t 1 year ago
@SmartStr33t Talorance is what the world holds up so high, that it misses the truth. As followers of Jesus Christ we are called to up hold truth over each other and encourage each other to God's higher standard found in the bible. Once again you point our me as being counter-intuitive, but Shane's confussing statement about fundamentalist is not counter-intuitive? The world must see us as summitted to God's word, in love, and patience. Being in a post modern culture, the world views all...
truth4U2C 1 year ago
truth as realitive. Our love for the lost should have a purpose to lead them to the cross. This involves telling them the bad news that they are a sinner in need of a savior, before they hear the good news of God's love for them. The world may be looking for acceptance, but it needs forgivness, we (as the church) don't accept the lost into the church, we love and talorate each other like subjects live under a loving King. Peace
truth4U2C 1 year ago
@truth4U2C I think when the world looks at the church it should see love first as 'God is love'. I know that also Jesus described himself as 'the Way, the Truth and the Life', but as I already mentioned in John 8:15 he said he chose not to judge us, even though he is the Truth.
Also the bible doesn't say give people bad news first. People attracted to Jesus were already painfully aware of their shortcomings, he didn't need to point them out.
SmartStr33t 1 year ago
@SmartStr33t John 8:15 has to do with Jesus's testimony about himself, read it in context, and in diferant verions of scripture to come to a better understanding of what Jesus is saying. Sure the bible doesn't say in one passage "give people bad news first" but this theme is all over the bible, the "Woman at the well" Rich young ruler" Old Testiment "LAW" New Teatiment "GRACE" Galatians 3:24 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Peace..
truth4U2C 1 year ago
@SmartStr33t
Yes, and Jesus told the woman "Go and sin no more". In other words stop living the way you have been living.
flashgm41 1 year ago
Hi there,
I really appreciated your video. Being as I'm a bit familiar with Shane's thought, I imagine that his thought is something like following: homosexuality is a sin that has been arbitrarily elevated by mainstream evangelicals as being somehow worse than other sins which the bible speaks out on (i.e. judgementalism). But he lost his judgementalism when he decided to follow Jesus' example and connect with people who are marginalized (i.e. homosexuals).
fenoglios 1 year ago
@fenoglios I think you have the right idea, but consider the fact that the homosexual movement makes evangelicals look like they arbitrarily elevated the sis of homosexuality due to their attempt to be excepted Books, movies, mainstream media all deny what the bible says...One other thought, when Christians warn sinners of God's coming judgement, if feels like the Christian is judging them, but he not, he is warning them of the just judge that we all will face. peace
truth4U2C 1 year ago
@truth4U2C
I hear ya. Homosexuals often misunderstand what's going on with judgement talk. It would be good if they knew God's judgement came from his love. But I have seen many evangelicals be unloving about it (i.e. sign says,"faggots burn"). They're bound to get defensive. I think that's why with the marginalized, Jesus always led with love and it was only after his love was internalized that repentance came up (i.e. Zachhaeus, samaritan woman, woman caught in adultry).
fenoglios 1 year ago
it seems as though you miss Shane's point. Shane is very pro-life and talks about hell more than most preachers. He is saying that his attitude toward how to approach, love, and befriend gays and those who have had abortions (sinners) was formed by a political worldview of hatred and keeping distance and oppression. He had "strong opinions" which were political. No one here is saying that fornication, killing babies, or homosexual activity is ok. Follower of Jesus=friend of sinners
lucduchien 1 year ago
@lucduchien If that were the words used, I woundn't have bothered posting this vid, he say says "Fundamentalist" and you are right he also says "Political" I show my confussion in the vid about this because a christian's world view should only come from the bible, not both. We are not to rip into the body of Christ with statements that put down some Christians (Fundamentalist) to lift ourselves up. He could of said "I was that republician"
truth4U2C 1 year ago
The Bible makes (at best) 6 references to the sin of homosexuality. Yet around 3,000 on the sins of greed, selfishness and the importance of giving to the poor. Jesus himself made exactly no references to homosexuality and sin... it was that important an issue to Him!! Lets get homosexuality in true Biblical perspective here!
willhum 1 year ago
@willhum @willhum Totally agree with you, Adultery is far more being done then the sin of homosexuality, the world keeps pushing this issue (I think) to show Christians in a bad light, and for exceptance. Tell me what you think of a another vid called "God loves obedience"
truth4U2C 1 year ago
On an ethical level, I'd compare you to a tapeworm. I'd love to hear your excuse for calling your hetero-lore history (Which is basically what fundamentalist Christianity is, among other things) something that is just and moral as an American citizen. You should hide and stay away from worldly phenoma, like speaking to responsible people, or displaying your conformist impulses to people with real social issues in their lives that require maturity to handle. Just a suggestion.
kern0099 1 year ago
@kern0099 So your insults are to some how shut me up? By the way explaine "real social issues" are you sure there real? isn't the argument always been if we could just shup up those Christians then the social outcasts would have improved self esteem, feel better about themselves, and stop doing distuctive things to themselves? My concern is that it is real, not a constuct of religion, but a true going away from God's creative order...be honest my friend, I am loving you with the truth, Peace
truth4U2C 1 year ago
@truth4U2C My self esteem isn't an issue, and neither is yours when speaking in the context of anything religions offer to society. Just to address your myth making..You are adamant about involvement in society when it goes directly against the tenets of your own religion, and then you can't handle the truth about yourself when called out on it. THEN you speak of being honest? Why would I come here to be dishonest about an issue that is important to me? Do you think I'm putting on a play?
kern0099 1 year ago
@kern0099 1corn 6 9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
truth4U2C 1 year ago
Kern0099 Its simple, if I believe that the bible is the word of God, I would warn sinners of the coming judgement from God....If I didn't do this, I would either not really believe what the Bible says or I'm not obeying it because, I'm not loving my neighbor by warning them. I'm not making up a myth, please read the bible yourself..peace
truth4U2C 1 year ago
@truth4U2C What makes you think I haven't read the bible? You're a new Christian, aren't you? Taking your baby steps, that thrilling ride of ultra conformity with something larger than yourself? Do yourself a favor and don't wish a man peace and condemn him to hell for what he is, since that would make you one of these: "nor slanderers nor swindlers" now wouldn't it? Ugh. Oh well, another pod person
kern0099 1 year ago
@kern0099 Dude your anger has blinded you, slow down, re read my last statement, I'm in the same boat as you, I'm a wretched Sinner, I'm warning not condemning...the bible is condemning sinners not me...Peace
truth4U2C 1 year ago
@truth4U2C While you ask me to slow down, you're saying to me stop completely. You need better self reflection ability before you call yourself a man who's involved in a spiritual endeavor. Accusations of anger to the party you're losing your ability to manipulate is the reaction of a child, after all.
kern0099 1 year ago
@truth4U2C What you believe is irrelevant, the same as is what I believe. What you DO, is something you're liable for, do you understand? I can see a need here to keep things simple with you.
kern0099 1 year ago
@kern0099 I'm consistanced in what I say, repent and trust what Jesus did on the cross, he did all the DOING, I'm just warning and praying for those who have yet to recieve God's gift., Peace
truth4U2C 1 year ago
Teach me. In your obvious condemnation of sinful acts like fornication, homosexuality, and abortion, you point out that the bible calls on us to show them some "tough love". So when meeting someone who is dealing with sin, you would do...what? Would you eat a meal with them like Jesus? When you first meet someone, how do you tell them they are going to hell in a loving way? I am confused. Do you know a woman who has had an abortion?
Mcfadr 1 year ago
@Mcfadr Telling someone the truth of course can be over a meal, and said with love, but it must be said if you truly love them. The gospel speaks to a person's conscience. yes, I've known many a sinner, including homsexuals and those who have had abortions, they are no differant then liars and thiefs, we are all sinners, so why treat them differantly? I'm wretched, I never want to forget my wretchedness, because its there where I meet other sinners in humble love & grace.
truth4U2C 1 year ago
@truth4U2C one shouldn't have to label himself as humble....
geigeroo 1 year ago
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TahoeChurch 1 year ago
@geigeroo Nice twist on my statement, I said "in Humble Love" I was explaining the attitude we should have when dealing with sin.....I suck at humility, your welcome to pray for me any time you want...peace
truth4U2C 1 year ago
You should take a little trip to Philly and see what's really going on.... Get off your webcam and actually go out and be with the people who are hurting, the destitute, the poor, the hungry...look up The Simple Way.... Go visit them.... I promise you will find something more than some guy stirring things up
geigeroo 1 year ago
@geigeroo Look I get it, I do see the importance of loving people to Christ, But if we don't finish the Gospel message, by warning them of the coming judgement from God, and just only feed them, we've only improved their life on their way to hell....
truth4U2C 1 year ago
@truth4U2C who said anything about loving them to Christ? We are not called to "love people to Christ", we are called to love people. Christ didn't sit around and tell people about how they are going to go to hell, John the Baptist did. Not that it is not part of the Gospel, but to sit at home and make webcam videos against a guy who is just trying to live as Christ did is wrong. To judge him and tell him to read his bible is wrong. We are all called to different things, what are you called to?
geigeroo 1 year ago
@geigeroo Lets be fair here, it is Shane who first criticise "fundamentalism" granted the term fundamentalism has been vilified by the media, so now Christians are joining in the attack, but fundamentalism is for the most part has a rock solid view of scripture.
TahoeChurch 1 year ago
Please remember that Jesus says this about how the world will react to his massage 18 "If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
TahoeChurch 1 year ago
Shane is bringing more people to Jesus than you are.
dontbe 1 year ago
truth4u2c, i think you're missing the whole point. I think Shane is saying that it is more important to do the works of Jesus who never mentioned homosexuality nor abortion, but he mentioned about feeding the hungry and doing good for people.
jimka2001 1 year ago
@jimka2001 Luke 10:12 I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town. Jesus mentions of sodem to make apoint about how those towns who reject the gospel will be worse of then sodom. Sin is sin, I person will go to hell for telling just one lie, with this in mind we need to warn people to repent and trust in what jesus did on the cross for us. along with loving them with food...
truth4U2C 1 year ago
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dustinstruthers 1 year ago
@dustinstruthers I agree, that this subject is way over blown, and it looks like Chirstians are condemning. it is just another sin among many, but it concerns me Shane seems to want to accommanate this sin inside the church.
truth4U2C 1 year ago
@dustinstruthers "I tend to agree with him that we spending too much time condemning and not enough time evangelizing," Evangelizing begins by pointing out, that we are already "Condemned" Revelations 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
truth4U2C 1 year ago
@dustinstruthers Christians are to warn the unrepentant sinners of the coming judgment. this may feel like condemnation, because deep down inside they know they are...its why Jesus encourages us in Mathew 5 that the world Hated him first, the good news is only good, when you understand the bad news first...peace
truth4U2C 1 year ago
this guy took a clip from shane and took it way out of context...
MrJessebaldwin 1 year ago
I challenge you to actually listen to his sermons, actually listen. not just sit and be so quick to formulate your own arguments and disagreements, actually listen. he is saying that he was quick to judge those with sins, without realizing that their sins were no different then his, and they needed love not hate. if you believe he doesnt read scripture, please wake up. i challenge you to read the book Unchristian.
carletopres 1 year ago
i cant tell you enough. he is not saying homosexuality is wrong. he is saying that as the church, we are singling them out, and the whole "God is a republican" thing is leading us to hate them, and look at them as the scum of the world, instead of loving them, and letting christ's love show them.. what is the christians world view, hate gays? that is not right. yes, gay is wrong, but, hating gays is just as wrong.. being gay is just as bad as greed, and pride, and yet we dont singleout the greed
carletopres 1 year ago
The point he is making is not that homosexuality and abortion are wrong. he believes the bible word for word, and knows they are wrong. the point he is making is that it is not our place to judge them, or to hate them, or to say we are better than them. the point is, we are not to hate them, but to treat them with love. You cant just sit here and play a minute of what he says, and create huge judgments against them. not once did he say what they did was right.
carletopres 1 year ago
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@carletopres i mean not that they are not wrong.
carletopres 1 year ago
@carletopres Christians arn't "judging people" they're warning people that God is a Just judge that will judge them....all man Kind is already Condemned...fall of Man...do a study on the concept of the "fear of God" read in your bible about who we are to have a health fear of.....peace
truth4U2C 1 year ago
Right on borther. If I love the homesexual I will tell him the truth just as someone loved me and told me the truth. The truth may have angered me but unless I repeanted I would still be lost.
FLINTER47 1 year ago
@FLINTER47 Well said...Peace
truth4U2C 1 year ago
Dear Truth4U2C,agree with what you're saying,but recognise (as you mentioned in the video) your misunderstanding of Shane. Shane did not at any point deny homosexual acts/fornication as sin, rather he admitted the matter to be more complicated than he thought. He recognised that orientation is not necessarily sinful as opposed to actng on ir ("we can live without sex") Finally, abortion does not necessarily stem from fornication - rape? or a family unable to support a severely disabled child?
jonathanbrodrick 1 year ago
@jonathanbrodrick Overwhemingly abortion is use as a form of birth control, in all circimstances the gospel could be shared to the glory of God.
truth4U2C 1 year ago
"A golden opportunity". You sound like a salesman, and I'm not buying.
aristottlesdeathwish 1 year ago
@aristottlesdeathwish ?
truth4U2C 1 year ago
@aristottlesdeathwish We see Jesus go from the physical to the spiritual in the story of the woman at the well. "A golden opportunity" is not a sales pitch, it is transition that evangelist uses to show the lost their need....peace
truth4U2C 1 year ago
Why do people twist the truth to make what ever point they feel the need to make. My question is: how imortant to you is the message from Matthew 22:34.
We do nothing to convert a person's thinking toward Christ. Only by living out His love for humanity, does humanity become drawn to His Spirit.
So when I read Irresistable Revolution, I was convicted by the Spirit how to love people.
BTW, on the whole 10 Commandment thing - read: Rom7:1-7, 2Cor 3:6-20, Eph 2:14-15, Gal 3:15-25, Col 2:13-15
yantski 1 year ago
@yantski Glad you included Gal 3:24, read all of chapter 3, note how the Law leads us to live by faith, My concern with Shane is he leaves out how the law teaches us that we are in trouble... (we need the cross) if he only shows a tolorant love, he is mis leading the sinner into thinking that God is OK with their sin life. He's not, we are all called to repent and trust In what Christ did on the cross. Then we are set free from the Law...Peace
truth4U2C 1 year ago
@truth4U2C the important thing to understand is that the Holy Spirit has to be invited in to a person's life before He can convict a person of their sin. We do nothing of benefit to toss sin in a person's face before we offer the way out of it - they may not listen to us long enough otherwise.
yantski 1 year ago
@yantski Galatians 3:24 "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith" Is your Opinion? " We do nothing of benefit" beacuse the use of the Law to wake up a person's conscience is the purpose of the law... put in google "Hell's best kept Secret" listen to that message from "Ray Compfort" he does a real good job from scripture showing how to use the law while wittnessing...Peace
truth4U2C 1 year ago
@truth4U2C In our society, we would be hard pressed to find someone who doesn't know right from wrong - the letter of the law. I would say a lot of people pretend ignorance in order to not deal with things. I also think people would be a lot more honest if they felt safe to confess to their fellow person. But self righteousness has replaced the fear of God with the fear of retribution and personal attacks.
yantski 1 year ago
@yantski yes, right on! the call for us as forgiven sinners is to warn of God's rightousnes that will demand payment for their sins. In Love we need to point to God, so they will take the focus off of themselves an on to God.
clayandjess7 1 year ago
@truth4U2C In Ray Comfort's video, his analogy of the plane and parachute is pretty good. But the third scenario is: the flight attendant flings the door open, pushes the man half way out of it, and yells at him that he's gonna die unless he gives her what she wants then he can have a parachute.
The thing that caught my attention the most is the fact that Ray has a gift for preaching in that manner. I'm curious to see if the regular Joe could pull it off.
I'm seeing validity there though.
yantski 1 year ago
You didn't even listen to Claiborne
soccerglib07 1 year ago
@soccerglib07 Yes I did listen, I questioned what he said, I admit in the vid that I'm not exactly sure what he meant, but what I did take issue with was his universal we're all excepted by God statement that contradicts the Bible. What's missing is the call to repent, may-be Shane, says that sometimes, (I Pray he does) but in all my reading, he call to repent and trust in Christ is weak. Peace
truth4U2C 1 year ago
oh of course man, I totally get you, but for the longest time, i was in church smoking weed at the same time, it was something i had to overcome. they have to overcome it as well, it doesn't happen instantly, but i do agree that claiborne should definetely explain better what he means. he is a good guy at heart.
mylovelydisaster 1 year ago
@mylovelydisaster Yes, Once in the building known as a chruch, they can hear the truth, but if we make a place for them as is...yikes! I like Shanes intentions, but we need to enourage him to love like Christ with the truth, Peace
truth4U2C 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
do you really think someone as intelligent and educated as Shane Claiborne hasn't seen the Scripture references you're using here?
good point though....almost.
nombredouze 1 year ago
do you really think someone as intelligent and educated as Shane Claiborne hasn't seen the Scripture references you're using here?
good point....almost.
nombredouze 1 year ago
@nombredouze So if he knows he should teach it....
snowshop 1 year ago
he's not saying he's against anything. He's not saying his view of abortion weren't from the bible. he is saying, being totally against them is pressured upon him by political views during that time(most likely fox news because he was a christian, just not the way he is now). he now has learned, to not judge those people for what they've done. he is saying to love everyone the same. he's not against fundamentalism he is against them trying to make people conform to exactly what they believe.
mylovelydisaster 1 year ago
@mylovelydisaster Well said but the issue isn't making everone the same it is "repentance" we are called to repent from sin, Shane wants to make a place in the church for Homosexuals? Look I'm not saying that Homosexuals can''t join the Church, I'm saying opon joining they would be Xhomosexuals who have left that lifestyle, just like Xfornacators, Xliars, Xtheifs, and any other xsinners who now hate the sin they once loved.
truth4U2C 1 year ago
Very lawyerly cross-examination of Claiborne's words. What did Jesus say about the "lawyers" in your bible?
I think you're completely missing the heart of what Shane was saying. Which is what I would expect from a fundamentalist.
Shane is not saying that homosexual acts are biblically approved. He is saying you have to truly love someone before you can - or have the holy right to - call them to real repentance.
But don't sweat it... Pharisees always seem to miss stuff like this.
termsofusepolice 1 year ago
This video seems like spiritual one-upmanship
Simulacra541 1 year ago
O.o? Which bible you using? I'm using King James Version.
Leviticus 18:22- If you read it as a woman without changing the context it states lesbianism.
1 Corinthians 6:9- The word isn't homosexuality it's "effeminate" which practically means if a man look or act like a girl your commiting a sin. >.> Doesn't really make sense when it comes to birth appearance. >.> Nor does it discusses anything about a butch woman.
The book your using is taking everything out of context.
SimplyEasyBreezy 1 year ago
Jesus said he who looks at a person with lust in their heart commits adultery, he who hates his neighbor is guilty of murder...So I say whe who is without sin cast the first stone.......Shane's not disputing it's sin he's disputing the way Christians treat fellow sinners....
ramyon74 1 year ago
I would encourage you to read Shane's book the Irresistible Revolution. It refutes 99% of your claims on him. You took a lot from a 4 minute video that wasn't clear and filled in the blanks (almost all of it incorrect). Anyway, you'll see what he's talking about in the book.
yippeeefriends 1 year ago
I think you point is valid, how ever I could say the same about his sloppy charge against fundamentalism which represents a large part of Christianity
truth4U2C 1 year ago
1. cor. 6:9-10... seems like you can be homosexual, but not practice. i would think you would agree you could be a alcohlic, but no longer a drunkard. so what is the point your making?
wyred83 1 year ago
The terms you have chosen don't square with scripture, note both Homosexual and alcohlic as words or concepts didn't exist when the bible was written. They soften the responsibility of the sinner, explain away, excuse, To Repent is to have a complete turn around, change of derection, change of Heart. If Shane conforts unrepentant sinners by saying God loves them without them repenting...What will God do? what dose the bible say? thanks for the comment, Bob
truth4U2C 1 year ago
Hi Brother....you say you could go on for 3 hours about Shane's video, or the subjects within the video.
Praise the Lord you only went on for 8 minutes, which was still to long.
Also, on your behalf, thank God for quasi free speech.
jimwelch1957 2 years ago
LOL, very funny, in other words you want me to shut up...I can also conclude that you think I'm 100% wrong....wow Most at least understand my concerns about the issue of repentance. Are you one of those who think God loves us just the way we are? or would you rather I just shut up...Peace
truth4U2C 2 years ago
@truth4U2C God loves us just the way we are, but he loves us too much to let us stay that way. Repentance is a process. On an earlier post, I challenge you to find a church full of Xsinners.
kjt9669 1 year ago
@kjt9669 Repentance is a process...OK so does Shane think that Homosexuals need to repent? To be in repentance is a process, but if pastors like shane never call sinners to repent....there won't be repentance....
truth4U2C 1 year ago
@truth4U2C Maybe I misunderstand what you are saying... but it looks as though you just said that another human needs to call sinners to repent?
dmillermusic 1 year ago
@dmillermusic , Call, encourage, warn, not sure if "call" hits some nerve with you that makes what I said sound unbiblical, but most of this blog has ended up about the act of repentance.
truth4U2C 1 year ago
Little children, love one another.
Peace be with you!
thebananarepublican 2 years ago
There is hell, that is for those who reject Jesus' sacrifice. When we look at the Bible and Jesus we see a stark contrast to the love that so-called ministers are giving. Like the Pharisees you are telling Shane his problem is interpretation, you tell him to take a new course. But you never say what that course is. Is it new christian t-shirts, and music or is it a revolutionary life that others are drawn to because of the love and prayer we pour out by not hating the sinner but loving them.
scarroll48 2 years ago 2
You have it backwards, The Biblical course that the fundamentaists folow is the course, It is Shane who is pointing out a new course, I'm defending, the old one that is being attacked. Look I like Shane, I like alot of what he is doing, but why along the way does he have to put done fundamentalists? I know the world, has made fundamentalism a bad thing by misrepresenting what they believe, but those in the body should know the bible and know that fundamentist are sound in their understanding.
truth4U2C 2 years ago
Also you are not consoling and witnessing by saying man what a sin you just committed killing your baby acting all along like we haven't done a thing. We need real world theology, not this fundamental way of the master brow beating. Claiborne is rebelling against those like you who feel that telling people of all their sins will bring them to the cross while we act holier than thou. We bring others to the cross by being Christ to them, they need to see his love, like the women almost stoned.
scarroll48 2 years ago 2
"We need real world theology" What is your veiw on the Bible? I'm a wreched sinner, lost, deceived and on my way to Hell without the Holy Spirit's work in my life. like wise, consol wihout the bible is foolishness, without understanding what God tells us in scripture, we are of no use to the lost. It's insights on mans condidtion is what is needed, not some new movement based on some new tee shirt slogon. Please study the Bible, read Romans...its Law & Grace, adminestered in Love...
truth4U2C 2 years ago
Haha, I have read romans a million times. It says the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is salvation, we are made righteous through faith, all the work of God, for we can do nothing to achieve it.
We are all fallen, therefore in grace, in love we reach out, not to judge but to tell of God's forgiveness, and we tell of the outcome if you reject it, but do it with compassion as Jesus did is all I am saying.
scarroll48 2 years ago
Bob, stop, thanks. You have seen clips, I dare you to meet him, I have and worked alongside him. Have you served out of America? Where was your education? Stop proof texting, I can cite Leviticus, and tell you not to eat crabs, shrimp etc. I can cite Paul to tell women not to talk in Church. Shane is rebelling against the fundamentalist hatred of others. Fornication is looking at a women the wrong way, cite Jesus. Why must we attack other Christians. He who is guilty throws first.
scarroll48 2 years ago
@scarroll48, It was Shane who first critizied Fundamentalists, his mis judgment is clearly seen here as he confussed the issues by saying it was political. Do you know who the fundamentalist are? Shane attacks one group of the body of Christ, you join in and say that group hates others...You have wrongly judged me...
truth4U2C 2 years ago
I think this video doesn't take into account the significant historical-critical work done in the last 50 years of Biblical scholarship, or the movements in theology that have resulted largely from that work. The fundamentalist notion of what the Gospel is makes the conversation you are in a completely different one than Mr. Claiborne's conversation. The Gospel as "Jesus died for your sins so that you can go to Heaven" is just out of touch with the bulk of critical work regarding the Bible.
therockjetty12 2 years ago
If you take an honest look at scripture, you'll see that it spends most of its time on the "one" subject of God's redemptive work. Shane and others in the Emergent Church movement want to change the Gospel into something its not. Just read Romans for yourself, not these new Christians who are twisting the Bible into something new.
truth4U2C 2 years ago
Luther, Calvin, Spurgen, Shaffer, and others stretching over the last 2000 years have done a great job helping us to understand scripture, but first of all read it for yourself, Romans, Do the work for yourself, we're a fallen creature,don't trust Shane, Calvin, or even me, READ YOUR BIBLE!
truth4U2C 2 years ago
An example- Proverbs 13:24 says "He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him." Christians long used this verse, and continue to use it, to justify corporal punishment of their children, saying that the Bible essentially commands that you beat (spank, whatever you want to call it) your child.
When scholars did historical-critical work on this passage in the original language, it was discovered that the "rod" mentioned refers to a shepherd's staff...
therockjetty12 2 years ago
...a "disciplinary" tool used to guide sheep, never to strike them. The command to "read your Bible and see what it says for yourself" belittles the gravity of the fact that our Bibles are in translation from ancient languages, and that our culture is vastly different than the culture in which the biblical texts were written. Understanding the true meaning of a text comes from revelation no doubt, but it's a VERY slippery slope to presume that "what God reveals to me is the right interpretation
therockjetty12 2 years ago
...must be right." Hitler, for example, had the Bible in hand, using weak theology and misguided biblical interpretation to announce that he was doing God's work by exterminating the Jews. The goal of those like Shane (who I don't believe would place himself among the Emergent Church movement per se) is to return to an early Christian understanding of the Bible, most specifically of the life and teachings of Jesus Christ, not to construct something "new."
therockjetty12 2 years ago
Hitler, for example, yes very good, "weak theology" most the so called Christians of the day were deceived into going along with this new way of looking at how to love "your neighbor" except for a very small few like Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who held firm to the truth. new movements away from what the bible clearly says, should be concerning to the church,
truth4U2C 2 years ago
Shane's Criticism of Fundamentalism is a very sloppy, confusing attack on the bible, not a political movement. Where will this new understanding take us?
truth4U2C 2 years ago
...a "disciplinary" tool used to guide sheep, never to strike them" Never? then what makes it a disciplinary tool? Shepherd's would tap the sheep on the back to guild them back to the right path. Sure some people in the name of Christianity, use this passage to justify beating their children, but most Christians see this as an act of love, it is done in love, not anger.
truth4U2C 2 years ago
Yet when the plot to assassinate Hitler in which Bonhoeffer was involved failed, Hitler took it as a sign that he was in fact doing the work of God, that God had spared him to continue the work he had begun. When the Church took up violence as its means to overthrow Hitler, the Cross lost. I'm not particularly interested in arguing with you, but Shane's video speaks out against a fundamentalist understanding of Scripture, not against Scripture itself. Back to translation, the example I used...
therockjetty12 2 years ago
..wasn't particularly weighty; what if we were to see that "justification by grace through faith" in Romans wasn't written in reference to the justification of individual acts of immorality? Writers like Yoder highlight the fact that a careful look at Romans reveals the Jew/Gentile conflict within the church as the conflict at hand when Paul wrote about justification; not to mention that the modern notion of "self" just didn't exist. All I'm suggesting is that the Bible isn't as simple...
therockjetty12 2 years ago
...to understand as we might like it to be.
therockjetty12 2 years ago
I love the last comment. I truly believe that reading the Bible is the best way to learn about God. Discussion is great too though. Iron sharpens iron, just as one man sharpens another.
SodakScallywag 2 years ago
You are arguing against things Claiborne isn't saying. He never says it isn't sin but taking these political stances prohibits unconditional love. By the way in his writing Shane talks about how the church is the answer to issues like abortion. If we love a pregnant mother and her baby enough to do help her through what can be a very tough time we can drastically reduce abortions. He is talking about treating others the way Jesus treats us. Thank God.
jasontheboy 2 years ago
hey truth4U2C,
im not sure you completely understand what Shane is trying to convey, so i'd really recommend reading his book The Irresistible Revolution if you haven't already. its a pretty short read and quite interesting even if you don't agree with everything he's saying. god bless, brother
rocklobster57 2 years ago
Shane has done more for the kind of people Jesus hung around with than most people in America who claim to be Christian (yet they are self-righteous hypocrites). And, Jesus loves the sinner, but hates the sin.
KommunistKarl 2 years ago
Right on! I do love what Shane is doing with the poor, But his attack on fundamentalist is confussing to say the least. Yes Jesus loves sinners, and he hates sin, but the bible clearly says Cor6:9-10, "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
truth4U2C 2 years ago
Well, I agree with what you are saying; it just seemed like you didn't understand what he was saying. Yes, those things are bad, but some people condemn others without love (and what about "judge not lest ye be judged." ?) If a girl was raped and decides to get an abortion, for instance, there are many out there who condemn her to hell without any sense of empathy. I believe that's one of the things Shane was talking about. Showing love/compassion/empathy while trying to help the girl cope is...
KommunistKarl 2 years ago
... is what should be done instead of picketing and condemning all those who support abortion. That is but one example. The same concept should be applied to all the other controversies as well. Many throughout america are not being the loving and compassionate christian that they claim to be, and I think that is the fundamentalism that Shane is getting at; many resort to hate to get their ideas across.
KommunistKarl 2 years ago
Not to mention, but many don't grasp the concept that ALL sins are equally bad in nature. Murder is equal to theft and slander is equal to homosexuality, yet everyone likes to pick and choose and claim that some are worse than others. I have yet to hear about a petition to rid the world of porn, but yet there's nothing but controversy over abortion and gay marriage... What about adultery? That's not illegal. What about the 3% of the world hording 90% of the wealth? (I know thats not the exact %)
KommunistKarl 2 years ago
What about the 3% of the world hording 90% of the wealth? I've heard shane and others mention this before, what is the point? should we (the Church or Amierica) give money to hindus (for example) who let Holy Cows trample their food, so they starve to death by the ideas of their false religion? or should we proclaim the gospel to them in hopes that the Holy Spirit will change their hearts to Christ so that their Heavenly father will show them his love and take care of them?
truth4U2C 2 years ago
Money is not the answer...they could feed themselves
truth4U2C 2 years ago
Yet another confusing point you bring forth, Who is Shane really talking about in this Vid? From the bible I believe the great commission, to tell people about what Christ did on the cross for them. because you can't legistate morality. True fundamentalist know this fact, and leave the converting to he Holy Spirit. Those who picket I don't think condem, their main measage is that it is murder, forgiveness is available. Picketing is not a biblicaly model, if those picketing offer the Gospel...
truth4U2C 2 years ago
Then I believe God would recieve Glory and souls would be saved. If your doing Gods work here on earth, it is clearly to proclaim the gospel. Shane seems to mix polotics with his view of scripture. Who is he talking to here? the Church or the country?
truth4U2C 2 years ago
That is good if people do it for the glory of God. I'm not against that.
What I'm against is hypocrisy, particluarly within the american church. I also think that may be what Shane was speaking to/about.
No, picketing itself isn't the problem; it's picketing and yelling through a megaphone that everyone is going to hell with not a single smiling face or glimpse of joy to be seen within the crowd, no love or compassion shown for the people on the other side...
KommunistKarl 2 years ago
Karl, watch the vid and listen to the Hell's best kept secret...I'm out of time, but We'll talk again, God bless..Bob
PS...Go to my channel and watch My teaching on Bull horn and tell me wht you think...
truth4U2C 2 years ago
Is Claiborne not saying that many Christians have begun to Hate the Sinner not the Sin.Thus Condemming Homosexuals to Hell & portraying them as inherently evil without showing any understanding or forgiveness?So that the principle of:Let He who is without Sin cast the First stone is beeing violated. I mean what is the Greater sin? Stealing from someone, Lying to someone? These will actually cause concrete harm. If two men fall in love. It hurts no one else. So this sin seems lesser in extent
Espinozaize 2 years ago
He may be saying that , to some degree, if that is his intent, he could have been clearer...All sin is mostly equal, and from Romans we see that we are totally fallin and without hope. God doesn't look at us as greater and lesser siners, What he does do is call us to repent and trust in the cross, I want people to know that God is Just and loving, he will judge us upon his standard, people don't like to hear this, but it is true, and is what makes the good news so good.
truth4U2C 2 years ago
If Shane doesn't clearly convey the message of repantance to the lost he is doing them great harm by recieving them into the church as if God will totorate an unrepentant. sinner. We have to as gently as possible point out God's Holy nature, that will not stand sin.
truth4U2C 2 years ago
poorly done.
jeremyjj7 2 years ago
Hey man, I believe 100 percent believe Homosexuality is SIN, but in response go watch his video where he talks in the discussion of homosexuality. NEVER does he say homosexuality is right. He says the our job is to lead them and let God do the Healing!!! Therefore he knows its wrong. Love is a movement in itself. We show the Love God will convict and lead.
Dying101Fetus 2 years ago
Thanks, what is some seach terms I can put in to find that Vid Clip?
truth4U2C 2 years ago
haha, I just realized how bad my typing was in my last comment. I apologize, I didn't proofread.
The video is called Discussion: Christianity & Homosexuality Shane doesn't address the subject until about 3:55 of the video.
Dying101Fetus 2 years ago
Kelly, thanks for the comment, yes we are to invite unrepentant sinners into church! My point is about repentance, Your right on with Romans 2:4, but read it from Romans 2:1-15 I'm not passing judgement, If someone confesses a sin, I'm only warning them of the future judgemnt they will face from God, then encouraging them to repent and trust what Christ did on the cross. you see I know I'm a wretch, I know of Gods love towards me because of his act of love for me while I was still in my sin.
truth4U2C 2 years ago
"Grace does not come at a price- we just have to believe".....Re study Gods word on this statement, I see over whelming evidence that we a are clearly called to "Repent and trust" repentance is not works, it is not a price...my point is we should value if (grace) because it cost Christ. Yes "believe" is part of salvation, but our faith has more demenions....
truth4U2C 2 years ago
(not accepting sins, but people- because we are all sinners) watch the Shane Vid one more time...you are making my point, IS HE ACCEPTING SINS? look I hope I'm wrong, I really like Shane, but I love God's word more and must side with it, over Shane.....what do think? is he accepting sins? by not calling Homosexuals to repent?
truth4U2C 2 years ago
To this I must emphatically say:
Yes we can invite unrepentant sinners into church! God wants us to because we are the body and His kindness leads us to repentance. (Romans 2:4)
Grace does not come at a price- we just have to believe. That's what makes it so special. We don't deserve it, but He loves us that much.
If we can't be kind and loving and accepting of people (not accepting sins, but people- because we are all sinners) what fruit can we truly bear?
kellybee82 2 years ago
i think you need to read his books to really now what hes saying
LinziJo5 2 years ago
Books, more then one?....You've made my point, The gospel is a simple message law, judgement, repentance, and grace, I've read alot of what shane has written, I love him, but he is mis-leading, and I fear he is comforting sinners, in their sin.
truth4U2C 2 years ago
We as the church can not invite in unrepentant sinners into church, make them feel excepted, then to their surprise, when they die, be sent to hell by God who says I never knew you... God truly wants us to receive his grace, but we can not cheapen grace, it cost Christ, it comes with a price....
truth4U2C 2 years ago
Well then no one in the church would be left.
Gritterdone 2 years ago
Are you saying no one in the church repents? Does the the bible call us to repent? If the bible says for us to "Sin no more" like in John 8, then we should encourage each other to repent.
truth4U2C 2 years ago
Dude complicates the simple message that scripture conveys, which is one of love and forgiveness.
xeyedpig 2 years ago
Which "Dude" Me or Shane? In order to be forgiven, you must admit you have sinned, but if we don't tell sinners that they have broken the law of the Lord, they will think their OK, That is the major point I'm trying to make in this vid, In a very loving way we must warn sinners of the Judgment we all face. Hebrews 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
truth4U2C 2 years ago
I would like to think the best of Shane, To be a fundamentalist is a bible believing Christian. I don't call myself one, due to the negative rap the world has given the term. The Bible should be over all our opinions, meaning If you don't agree with Shane 100%, is the area you differ from him base on him being not right with scripture? or is it only your opinion that is different?
truth4U2C 2 years ago
The Bible calls us to die to ourselves, to me that means my opinion is not worth anything unless it lines up with scripture. Shane Criticizes fundamentalists, granted some fundamentalist need criticism, but what he does in this clip is clearly go against scripture. I have read Shane's Blog, and watched many vids, He is young, and I do pray for him, but he at this time is not speaking from a Christian world view.
truth4U2C 2 years ago