I go to directly to your prophets quotes in order to find out what the Church teaches & believes, I do not need your spin!
If someone is acting foolish, calling them a fool is not an attack!
Not all Mormon believe the same! Rlds, Flds, LDS, and please don't bore me with numbers, cause there are far more " Christians" then Mormons, So Who is right, to say you have truth is your opinion, but the fact remain, the Bible is last on the list of Mormon truth.
You have pulled quotes out of context, and call me spinning?
Have you read Doctrines of Salvation, Volume 3, page 198 yet?
You have never gone to the actual source, but have read commentary written by those who are antagonistic towards the church, and you call me spinning?
You blatantly refuse to go to the source, and I spin?
There is ONE way only to see who is a false prophet, & who is not !
But one must look to God's own words to get the truth on this Matter, I doubt you will listen to the Lord because it's not good news for You , Joe, & Mohamed!.
As the Apostle Paul said "If we or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel than that we have preached let him be accursed." By their fruits ye shall know them"
The Next thing from you will be a Block off your Vid! for sure, But that is very Common from LDS to block people, cause it happens to us Christians all the Time, and there are many in your own Church who would testify to that!
That is why many of the most faithful & Brilliant minds have left the Church.! And they are everywhere
Held up their the Book of Mormon as superior to the Bible - Read the Articles of Faith (which Joseph wrote). It states the Bible and the Book of Mormon are both the Word of God.
Do you know of any other faith that has their youth wake up to attend class at 6:00 am for two years to study the Bible as the LDS faith does? (compared with one year of the Book of Mormon).
I think I know my faith and the importance that the Bible is within it. Come to church, hear what we say of the Bible.
the Bible can be used to support Latter-day revelation, but not to critique it? But this then means that the distinctive doctrines of Mormonism have no organic, historical connection to the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ and his apostles. It is this disturbing fact which undermines the LDS churchs claim to preach the restored gospel.
We are running in circles. Moroni 10 instructs us to use the Bible to critique the Book of Mormon.
Who is the authority on LDS doctrine? Funnrun, Luke Wilson (who you are plagiarizing from) or Moroni?
Or how about Joseph Smith?
"The scriptures say what they mean, and mean what they say, we have sufficient grounds to go on and prove from the Bible that the gospel has always been the same"
In plain English, Joseph is inviting you to critique the doctrine using the Bible.
Would you care to come to my house and look at all of my Bibles? You can see which version I use. The King James Version.
That is the official version of the church.
Sure there are things that Joseph wrote in the footnotes.
Are you honestly stating that the Bible is perfect? With all the translations and editing through the years, there is not one chance of there being one thing different than what was originally spoken by the prophets?
Because you have the The King James Version in your house proves nothing, The Devil believes in God.,
This is about the Mormon faith , and where the Church Founders, Leaders and Teachers says it lays, It does not matter where YOU says it lays, You are a member, Not the Church! OK! good!
"Taught that Jesus was just another of a long line of human prophets, of which he was the last." - Ummm...that is not what Joseph taught at all. Who told you that? You are way off base there.
Joseph taught through his entire life that Jesus Christ was the Savior of mankind, the king of kings, and that Joseph was merely a prophet, and that he would someday be called home with another to take his place.
"Gave false prophecy" - Care to discuss the prophecies that came to pass?
Prophecies that have not yet been fulfilled are not false prophecies, they have not been fulfilled yet. Kind of like some of the Savior's and Isaiah's prophecies.
...Consider the implications of this statement: the Bible can be used to support Latter-day revelation, but not to critique it. But this then means that the distinctive doctrines of Mormonism have no organic, historical connection to the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ and his apostles. It is this disturbing fact which undermines the LDS churchs claim to preach the restored gospel.
Actually funnrun, you missed the point of the article. Matthews states that the Joseph received revelation the exact same way that the ancient prophets did.
So to say that this "undermines the LDS churchs claim to preach the restored gospel" is a little off, since we believe that man receives revelation today exactly as the ancient church did.
I think you know that answer. This is a pretty facetious comment. It would indicate that anyone who believes Joseph Smith's words simply believes them because they are gullible and will believe anyone who claims to have visions.
Please keep your comments civil.
I do not disrespect your beliefs, though I do not share in all of them. You can disagree without being disrepectful and insulting.
Remember, it is easier to attract bees with honey than with wine.
"The Law and the Prophets were until John: Since that time the Kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it." The time for declaring the forthcoming of the Kingdom was over; the kingdom itself was now to be declared by the Son himself!
It is. Moroni tells us to look at everything in both the Bible ("from the creation of Adam") and the Book of Mormon as part of the process of knowing whether the Book of Mormon is true or not.
...the Lord said to me, 'The prophets prophesy lies in My name. I have not sent them, commanded them, nor spoken to them; they prophesy to you a false vision, divination, a worthless thing, and the deceit of their heart." Jeremiah 14:14
Mohammed was told that both Jews and Christians had long since corrupted their scriptures and religion. Did you know the Koran uses the name "Jesus" more times then "Mohamed"? In like manner, Joseph Smith was told that all of Christianity had become corrupt, and that consequently the Bible itself was no longer reliable.
"Consequently?" Those are your words. Joseph quoted the Bible almost his entire life.
19th Century Christianity cannot exist without the Bible, but the Bible can exist without 19th Century Christianity. Equating them as one and the same is faulty logic.
The business of "Prophet" is very serious Business!!
And over time in our History of the World there has been so called "Prophets" like Mohamed!
Why does that offend you?
Joesph Smith must go up against all "Prophets" of the past in order to be the Final say of Gods words, if your going to tell them their "Prophet" is False!
No, I do not expect the world to bow. I will not bow to Joseph. I bow to the Savior.
Again, your logic is faulty. You are pitting Joseph against the prophets. I put him with them. So again, no, I am not going to tell them that Abraham is false, or Moses is false, or Isaiah is false, because I believe they are all prophets.
Stop putting words in my mouth. It illustrates your use of canned and faulty arguments.
"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; in so much that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect".
Thomas B. Marsh, who had served as President of the Council of Twelve Apostles in the Mormon Church, gave an affidavit in which he stated: "I have heard the Prophet say... if he was not let alone, he would be a second Mohammed to this generation... that like Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was, 'the Alcoran [i.e., the Koran] or the Sword.' So should it be eventually with us, 'Joseph Smith or the Sword.' " (History of the Church, vol. 3, p. 167)
Look, funnrun, I have asked you to get off the Muslims. I will delete all further comments concerning Muslims. This has nothing to do with your arguments about them, you are turning this into a slandering of Muslims as well as Mormons.
So please take your slanderous comments of Muslims elsewhere.
For anyone who reads this quote, the context of the quote must be given.
First, Marsh's affidavit was given after he had been rebuked for his misdoings as a leader in the church, and was seeking revenge.
Second, stated in the affidavit that the individuals who would carry this out were a group of Mormons called Danites. Joseph Smith had nothing to do with the Danites.
In other words, the statement (which included known fallacies) was made in order to overthrow Joseph and exact revenge.
anyone you stands up to the lord Joe will be cut down to the core, even thought there were many people in his Church who knew him very well AND told of his quotes in glee, that does not matter!
Well, funnrun, the State of Missouri unfortunately would not agree with you as they officially apologized for the death charge and expulsions the governor issued against the mormons which was issued because of the affidavit, which proved to be false.
I would ask that you study your history in full.
And no, we do not worship Joseph. Marsh sought to take Joseph's place, and when it did not happen, he sought vengeance. If you wish to take that as a reliable source...
It is God who tells us in the Bible to test "Prophets", so Why don't you listen to God??
You can run from God's test of a Prophet all you want, but don't expect the rest of the World too!
It's important to always remember the Bible was here first, before the Koran, and way before the BOM,... and also please remember what Joe's old buddy "Shakespeare" once said:
" Even the Devil can quote Scripture for his own purpose"
..Matthews explains that this is true of Mormon doctrine in general: the Bible was not the source of the doctrines the Prophet Joseph Smith taught. Rather, the Bible, so far as it is translated correctly, is tangible evidence that the doctrines he received by revelation were the same as those the ancient prophets obtained by revelation.
According to Robert J. Matthews, professor of ancient scripture at Brigham Young University, writing in the LDS churchs publication the Ensign (I Have a Question, September 1981, p. 16),
Joseph Smith obtained the doctrine of salvation for the dead by revelation and not from the printed pages of the Bible ..
............Joseph Fielding Smith, the tenth Prophet, Seer and Revelator of the LDS Church wrote,
"In my judgment there is no book on earth yet come to man as important as the book known as the Doctrine and Covenants, with all due respect to the B. of M. and the Bible, and the P. of G.P. which we say are our standards in doctrine. The book of D. & C. to us stands in a peculiar position above them all" (D. of S., Vol. III, p. 198).
Funnrun, please put the quote into context. I can see how it is confusing when taken out of context.
1. When was the Third Volume of the Doctrines of Salvation written? Was Joseph Fielding Smith the prophet when it was? Nope. Not for another 14 years.
"(T)he Bible's great influence for good is because it is inspired and contains the word of the Lord delivered to his prophets, who wrote and spoke as they were moved upon by the Holy Ghost, since the world began."
"The Holy Bible has had a greater influence on the world for good than any other book ever published."
and
"When I say that, do not for a moment think I do not value...the Bible...just as much as any man that lives; I think I do. I do not know of anybody who has read (it) more, and I appreciate (it); (it is) wonderful; (it) contain(s) doctrine and revelation and commandments that we should heed"
Please read page 198 of Smith's book and tell me. Because he explains it, though Decker does not. He pulled the quote out of context to support his argument.
I think it is ironic that you are quoting Decker who twice stood before church authorities and denounced what he had written (and thrice denounced that).
So rather than go to the original source, you are relying on the interpretation of a man who has lied and denounced everything he has ever said?
"I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book."
ANY OTHER BOOK! again The Subject is Bible Validity!
No where does any of these men say the Bible is "THE MOST CORRECT BOOK"
Are you saying there are zero errors in the Bible? That through thousands of years, and numerous translations, and hand written copying, that there is zero chance for error in the Bible, and it is perfect?
Even the authors of the Book of Mormon admitted there were sure to be errors.
You are trying to change the argument. Your original reason for quoting this was to say that the Joseph's revelations cannot be critiqued using the Bible. Matthews never says that.
Your beef has been that the LDS faith is "a few degrees off."
Matthews is stating that the manner in which Joseph received revelation is the same as ancient prophets (which is in line with God being a God that does not change).
I understand the Mormon faith does not think the Bible is Correct, & is Corrupt!
And that is why I'm not a Mormon, as is 99.97% of the World
The "biggest deception" of the Mormons is that their "Sacred Books" contradict each other, AND the Bible!, Thus all the confusion on the "Most Correct Book" in the Mormon faith!
You threats of removal and Blockage are typical Mormon, and only show your weakness and denial of your Prophets own words.
I agree 100% with Fielding Smith, when put into context.
He stated that the Doctrine and Covenants "contains the word of God to those who dwell here now."
He was stating that following modern revelation is more important than following written words. The Doctrine and Covenants was still a work in progress when he wrote those words, revelations were still coming.
Christ said exactly this to the Jews when Christ walked the Earth.
..Matthews explains that this is true of Mormon doctrine in general: the Bible was not the source of the doctrines the Prophet Joseph Smith taught. Rather, the Bible, so far as it is translated correctly, is tangible evidence that the doctrines he received by revelation were the same as those the ancient prophets obtained by revelation.
that sounds nice, BUT the truth is a little different! According to Robert J. Matthews, professor of ancient scripture at Brigham Young University, writing in the LDS churchs publication the Ensign (I Have a Question, September 1981, p. 16), Joseph Smith obtained the doctrine of salvation for the dead by revelation and not from the printed pages of the Bible ..
We had Stake Conference this past weekend, and Elder Uchtdorf spoke to northern California stakes in a satellite broadcast, and it was great! He gave a message of hope, of hanging in there on this economy, don't quit, have faith, and said that when the going gets tough, the tough get going, and that the saints in California were tough.
I hope he's right, because there certainly are some tough times to get through, and we need a lot of faith to make it. I was very touched by his faith.
Thank you so much for sending this video. I know from personal experience this is true. I love the gospel so much and it brings great joy and peace to my life. I am so thankful for President Uchtdorf. His messages are always so spiritual and informative. I like his accent too! :) I feel so sad for the people who were on that plane. How scary that must have been.
SUN-day worship is that right? rev.12:17! lds is just one of the daughter of the harlot (roman cat. church)
calatis4u 1 year ago
However, calling someone a fool goes beyond the debate and into personal attacks.
As clarified earlier in this forum, I will remove all personal attacks.
If anyone cares to know what you wrote, you wrote that LDS leaders do not believe the Bible.
I know the doctrine of my church, funnrun.
Unfortunately you do not.
DrewSRail 2 years ago
Funnrun,
The disagreement is that we do not interpret the Bible the same way that you do.
No two Christian denominations do. As a matter of fact, there are splits within the same denominations (ie homosexuality within the Anglican faith).
I do not come here as a defender of the bible. I never said that.
I post videos on here to clarify LDS beliefs and uplift others.
DrewSRail 2 years ago
I go to directly to your prophets quotes in order to find out what the Church teaches & believes, I do not need your spin!
If someone is acting foolish, calling them a fool is not an attack!
Not all Mormon believe the same! Rlds, Flds, LDS, and please don't bore me with numbers, cause there are far more " Christians" then Mormons, So Who is right, to say you have truth is your opinion, but the fact remain, the Bible is last on the list of Mormon truth.
funnrun 2 years ago
You have pulled quotes out of context, and call me spinning?
Have you read Doctrines of Salvation, Volume 3, page 198 yet?
You have never gone to the actual source, but have read commentary written by those who are antagonistic towards the church, and you call me spinning?
You blatantly refuse to go to the source, and I spin?
I do not think you know what spin means.
DrewSRail 2 years ago
You want actual quotes?
How about Joseph Smith?
"'Wherein do you differ from other sects?'"
"In that we believe the Bible, and all other sects profess to believe their interpretations of the Bible, and their creeds."
(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119)
I have quoted Joseph, I have quoted Fielding Smith (your quote in context, actually), I have quoted the Church today.
And quoting the source is spin?
DrewSRail 2 years ago
Again, your facts are way off. The RLDS church does not call themselves RLDS anymore.
And calling FLDS members of the Church of the Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints is like calling Martin Luther a Catholic.
Obviously, funnrun, you are not looking for truth about Mormons. That you believe you found it is great. I am happy for you. I really am.
You just do not have an understanding of the LDS faith, so I wish you the best
DrewSRail 2 years ago
Let me be very clear "Joseph Smith is a false prophet" is not a reply to a counterargument.
It is your opinion, you may feel it is fact, I do not agree.
And that is where we simply shake hands and agree to disagree.
DrewSRail 3 years ago
There is ONE way only to see who is a false prophet, & who is not !
But one must look to God's own words to get the truth on this Matter, I doubt you will listen to the Lord because it's not good news for You , Joe, & Mohamed!.
As the Apostle Paul said "If we or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel than that we have preached let him be accursed." By their fruits ye shall know them"
funnrun 3 years ago
The Next thing from you will be a Block off your Vid! for sure, But that is very Common from LDS to block people, cause it happens to us Christians all the Time, and there are many in your own Church who would testify to that!
That is why many of the most faithful & Brilliant minds have left the Church.! And they are everywhere
DONT QUESTION THE FAITH!
funnrun 2 years ago
Some of the men currently serving in either the First Presidency or are Apostles.
1. Harvard educated, former Stanford professor
2. Former VP of Lufthansa airlines
3. Former Legal Counsel for Bank of America
4. GW Educated nuclear engineer.
5. Former Supreme Court Justice of Utah
6. Heart Surgeon, performed on international politicians
7. Yale educated, former university president
8. Former CEO of the California Healthcare System.
9. Harvard MBA grad, president of Papermate.
DrewSRail 2 years ago
"Don't question the faith"
This is confusing. Before any convert is baptized, they are asked if they have sufficiently questioned. Moroni 10 instructs us to question.
Again, with that statement, I do not think you quite understand LDS theology.
Ironically, I do not think you are questioning the negative things you hear about the LDS faith.
DrewSRail 2 years ago
Running away from the comparisons of Mohamed & Joe Smith is a sure sign of weakness Drew!
As is your obvious false accusation of "bigotry" laid against me.
You have in no way shown why the Stark comparisons are bogus, but have chosen to attack me instead.
funnrun 2 years ago
Let's use your comparison
"Created new scripture" - Sounds like what Moses and Isaiah did. That is what part of what a prophet does.
DrewSRail 2 years ago
Held up their the Book of Mormon as superior to the Bible - Read the Articles of Faith (which Joseph wrote). It states the Bible and the Book of Mormon are both the Word of God.
Do you know of any other faith that has their youth wake up to attend class at 6:00 am for two years to study the Bible as the LDS faith does? (compared with one year of the Book of Mormon).
I think I know my faith and the importance that the Bible is within it. Come to church, hear what we say of the Bible.
DrewSRail 2 years ago
Consider the implications of this statement:
the Bible can be used to support Latter-day revelation, but not to critique it? But this then means that the distinctive doctrines of Mormonism have no organic, historical connection to the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ and his apostles. It is this disturbing fact which undermines the LDS churchs claim to preach the restored gospel.
funnrun 2 years ago
We are running in circles. Moroni 10 instructs us to use the Bible to critique the Book of Mormon.
Who is the authority on LDS doctrine? Funnrun, Luke Wilson (who you are plagiarizing from) or Moroni?
Or how about Joseph Smith?
"The scriptures say what they mean, and mean what they say, we have sufficient grounds to go on and prove from the Bible that the gospel has always been the same"
In plain English, Joseph is inviting you to critique the doctrine using the Bible.
DrewSRail 2 years ago
Joe didn't believe the bible, He tried to REWRITE the Bible? "Inspired Version",
and Please tell us why you dont teach from it?
AND always remember what Joe Smiths buddy Shakespeare said :
"The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose. - "
funnrun 2 years ago
Would you care to come to my house and look at all of my Bibles? You can see which version I use. The King James Version.
That is the official version of the church.
Sure there are things that Joseph wrote in the footnotes.
Are you honestly stating that the Bible is perfect? With all the translations and editing through the years, there is not one chance of there being one thing different than what was originally spoken by the prophets?
And out of curiosity, why do you call him Joe?
DrewSRail 2 years ago
hmmm.
Let me get this straight, but first,
Because you have the The King James Version in your house proves nothing, The Devil believes in God.,
This is about the Mormon faith , and where the Church Founders, Leaders and Teachers says it lays, It does not matter where YOU says it lays, You are a member, Not the Church! OK! good!
funnrun 2 years ago
Well, if you will not take my word for it, then how about the Church's?
"In English, the King James Version of the Bible is accepted as scripture by the Church.
In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we revere the Bible and its sacred teachings"
(True to the Faith, an official publication of the LDS church, p. 157).
DrewSRail 2 years ago
"Taught that true salvation was to be found only in their respective religions" - As did Paul and Moses and Peter.
Who was it that said, "Strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life"?
DrewSRail 2 years ago
"Encountered fierce opposition to their new religions and had to flee from town to town because of threats on their lives."
Like Stephen? Like Paul? Like the Apostles?
There was once a God who was slain on a cross by his own countrymen.
DrewSRail 2 years ago
"Taught that Jesus was just another of a long line of human prophets, of which he was the last." - Ummm...that is not what Joseph taught at all. Who told you that? You are way off base there.
Joseph taught through his entire life that Jesus Christ was the Savior of mankind, the king of kings, and that Joseph was merely a prophet, and that he would someday be called home with another to take his place.
Your facts are pretty skewed here.
DrewSRail 2 years ago
"Gave false prophecy" - Care to discuss the prophecies that came to pass?
Prophecies that have not yet been fulfilled are not false prophecies, they have not been fulfilled yet. Kind of like some of the Savior's and Isaiah's prophecies.
Put the prophecies in context, funnrun.
DrewSRail 2 years ago
Yeah, Well the State of Missouri & the LDS Church something lot in common!
The LDS Church apologized for the slaughter of over 120 Men Woman & Children in Meadow Mountain Massacre executed by good God fearing Mormon men also.
or did you forget about that?
ps.. this is not against you!, just stating a fact.
funnrun 2 years ago
Funnrun,
This is the issue. Your response to all of my arguments is "Joseph Smith and Mohammad are false"
You have not answered a single counterargument I have written.
If I disagree, rather than argue my counterpoint, you do one of four things:
1. Denounce Islam
2. State I do not like the facts
3. State I have a temper
4. State I am getting my feelings hurt
There are all red herrings.
Either reply to the counterarguments with logic or move on, because from here on out, I will.
DrewSRail 3 years ago
Great vid!
Mormons are off more then a few degrees from God, they put their faith in a Man instead of Gods own words in the Bible .
funnrun 3 years ago
Thanks for the comment, funnrun. We believe in the Bible, we believe it to be the Word of God.
I am not sure that understanding of LDS theology is very clear based on your comment.
DrewSRail 3 years ago
...Consider the implications of this statement: the Bible can be used to support Latter-day revelation, but not to critique it. But this then means that the distinctive doctrines of Mormonism have no organic, historical connection to the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ and his apostles. It is this disturbing fact which undermines the LDS churchs claim to preach the restored gospel.
funnrun 3 years ago
Actually funnrun, you missed the point of the article. Matthews states that the Joseph received revelation the exact same way that the ancient prophets did.
So to say that this "undermines the LDS churchs claim to preach the restored gospel" is a little off, since we believe that man receives revelation today exactly as the ancient church did.
DrewSRail 3 years ago
And we actually do believe that the Bible should be used as a critique of LDS doctrine. That is outlined pretty clearly in Moroni 10:3.
It is not the only method of critique, but Moroni instructs the reader to ponder the Bible's teachings in relation to the Book of Mormon's.
We do not believe the revelations should be critiqued against your beliefs or what you believe the Bible to mean, and that is the difference.
DrewSRail 3 years ago
Anyone can calm to be a Prophet,
Mohamed said an angel named "Gabriel" came to him from God, why don't you believe Him?
Joe Smith & Young were wrong on all most all of there Prophecy!
funnrun 3 years ago
I think you know that answer. This is a pretty facetious comment. It would indicate that anyone who believes Joseph Smith's words simply believes them because they are gullible and will believe anyone who claims to have visions.
Please keep your comments civil.
I do not disrespect your beliefs, though I do not share in all of them. You can disagree without being disrepectful and insulting.
Remember, it is easier to attract bees with honey than with wine.
DrewSRail 3 years ago
Well first of all, to accept the BOM one must first conclude there was a need for it, But
In Luke 16:16, the Lord clearly stated,
"The Law and the Prophets were until John: Since that time the Kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it." The time for declaring the forthcoming of the Kingdom was over; the kingdom itself was now to be declared by the Son himself!
funnrun 3 years ago
So why does Paul teach that the household of God " are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets." (Ephesians 2:20)?
The word "are" indicates present tense.
DrewSRail 3 years ago
"The Bible should be used as a critique of LDS doctrine. That is outlined pretty clearly in Moroni 10:3."
it is? I dont see that anywhere in Moroni 10:3.
funnrun 3 years ago
It is. Moroni tells us to look at everything in both the Bible ("from the creation of Adam") and the Book of Mormon as part of the process of knowing whether the Book of Mormon is true or not.
DrewSRail 3 years ago
What is the Test of a Prophet?
...the Lord said to me, 'The prophets prophesy lies in My name. I have not sent them, commanded them, nor spoken to them; they prophesy to you a false vision, divination, a worthless thing, and the deceit of their heart." Jeremiah 14:14
Very Simple!
funnrun 3 years ago
That is not a test. A test would be to determine who is a prophet and who is not.
That is an entirely different discussion.
DrewSRail 3 years ago
Not all Muslims are evil people and some do great works too!
Muslims out number Mormons 20 to 1, so go tell one of them there Prophet is false!
funnrun 3 years ago
So what you are saying is that truth is found in numbers?
What you do and what I do is different. It is very clear that you like calling people false.
I simply share what I believe to be true. Take it or leave it.
DrewSRail 3 years ago
Mohammed was told that both Jews and Christians had long since corrupted their scriptures and religion. Did you know the Koran uses the name "Jesus" more times then "Mohamed"? In like manner, Joseph Smith was told that all of Christianity had become corrupt, and that consequently the Bible itself was no longer reliable.
I'm not trying offends you, but that is a fact!
funnrun 3 years ago
"Consequently?" Those are your words. Joseph quoted the Bible almost his entire life.
19th Century Christianity cannot exist without the Bible, but the Bible can exist without 19th Century Christianity. Equating them as one and the same is faulty logic.
DrewSRail 3 years ago
i'm sorry, but what did I say that wasn't true?
The Koran has ton's of great teachings in it , and the Prophet Mohamed was not filled with all the hate some Muslims teach ether!
You don't know much about the Koran do you?
Both Mohamed & Joesph claim of having angel visitations, and of receiving divine revelation to restore pure religion to the earth again.
funnrun 3 years ago
First, you missed my point. Go back and read my comment carefully.
Why are you talking about Muslims?
Get off the Muslims, talk to them.
Get off the insults.
And get off the canned arguments and statements. It is why your logic makes no sense.
Go and read my bio. Do you think I would know nothing of the Koran?
Have you ever read the Koran? Why do you think you are a qualified scholar of it?
DrewSRail 3 years ago
DrewSRail,
The business of "Prophet" is very serious Business!!
And over time in our History of the World there has been so called "Prophets" like Mohamed!
Why does that offend you?
Joesph Smith must go up against all "Prophets" of the past in order to be the Final say of Gods words, if your going to tell them their "Prophet" is False!
Do you expect the World to bow?
funnrun 3 years ago
No, I do not expect the world to bow. I will not bow to Joseph. I bow to the Savior.
Again, your logic is faulty. You are pitting Joseph against the prophets. I put him with them. So again, no, I am not going to tell them that Abraham is false, or Moses is false, or Isaiah is false, because I believe they are all prophets.
Stop putting words in my mouth. It illustrates your use of canned and faulty arguments.
DrewSRail 3 years ago
NOW if you don't like these FACTS
Tough!
I don't like em ether!
and that is why i believe both of these men to be false prophets!
Apostle Paul said "If we or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel than that we have preached let him be accursed."
Matthew 24:24
"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; in so much that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect".
VERY SIMPLE Message to understand!
funnrun 3 years ago
Do not confuse your opinion with fact. I am fine with facts.
Anytime I do not agree with you, you state I do not like facts.
That is a pretty weak argument and again faulty logic.
DrewSRail 3 years ago
Both created new scripture
Both prophets held up their own scripture as superior to the Bible
Both taught that true salvation was to be found only in their respective religions
Both prophets encountered fierce opposition to their new religions and had to flee from town to town because of threats on their lives.
Both taught that Jesus was just another of a long line of human prophets, of which he was the last.
Both gave false prophecy
funnrun 3 years ago
Both claimed to be Prophets
Both claimed of having angel visitations
Both claimed of receiving divine revelation to restore pure religion to the earth again.
funnrun 3 years ago
temper, temper, temper!
Now if you going to tell the world " Your the only True Church" you better back it up with more then Getting your feelings Hurt my friend!
Joseph Smith RE- wrote the Bible
(Inspired Version, ) and wrote the Book of Mormon, as did Mohamad wrote the Koran!,
funnrun 3 years ago
It is not about my feelings being hurt. That is a red herring if I have ever seen one.
You have not hurt my feelings. The message of the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ is not mine to take personal.
You have lost my respect, and that is different.
How?
By showing bigotry towards anything that does not agree with you.
By making insulting comments if someone does not agree with you.
By stating that your opinions are facts that are indisputable. Any disagreement is hurt feelings or temper.
DrewSRail 3 years ago
Thomas B. Marsh, who had served as President of the Council of Twelve Apostles in the Mormon Church, gave an affidavit in which he stated: "I have heard the Prophet say... if he was not let alone, he would be a second Mohammed to this generation... that like Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was, 'the Alcoran [i.e., the Koran] or the Sword.' So should it be eventually with us, 'Joseph Smith or the Sword.' " (History of the Church, vol. 3, p. 167)
funnrun 3 years ago
Canned argument.
Look, funnrun, I have asked you to get off the Muslims. I will delete all further comments concerning Muslims. This has nothing to do with your arguments about them, you are turning this into a slandering of Muslims as well as Mormons.
So please take your slanderous comments of Muslims elsewhere.
DrewSRail 3 years ago
For anyone who reads this quote, the context of the quote must be given.
First, Marsh's affidavit was given after he had been rebuked for his misdoings as a leader in the church, and was seeking revenge.
Second, stated in the affidavit that the individuals who would carry this out were a group of Mormons called Danites. Joseph Smith had nothing to do with the Danites.
In other words, the statement (which included known fallacies) was made in order to overthrow Joseph and exact revenge.
DrewSRail 2 years ago
yeah, sure.
we know.
anyone you stands up to the lord Joe will be cut down to the core, even thought there were many people in his Church who knew him very well AND told of his quotes in glee, that does not matter!
Joe is Lord!
funnrun 2 years ago
Well, funnrun, the State of Missouri unfortunately would not agree with you as they officially apologized for the death charge and expulsions the governor issued against the mormons which was issued because of the affidavit, which proved to be false.
I would ask that you study your history in full.
And no, we do not worship Joseph. Marsh sought to take Joseph's place, and when it did not happen, he sought vengeance. If you wish to take that as a reliable source...
DrewSRail 2 years ago
It is God who tells us in the Bible to test "Prophets", so Why don't you listen to God??
You can run from God's test of a Prophet all you want, but don't expect the rest of the World too!
It's important to always remember the Bible was here first, before the Koran, and way before the BOM,... and also please remember what Joe's old buddy "Shakespeare" once said:
" Even the Devil can quote Scripture for his own purpose"
Good Day!
funnrun 2 years ago
You have not explained what the test is.
Jeremiah 14:14 is not a test.
To test is to "determine the presence or properties of (a substance) " (Google definition of a test)
Malachi 3:10 is a great example of a test. The Lord says, "Prove me now herewith..." The Lord says, "Follow and see what happens."
Also, the Savior instructed us to knock, to ask, to search. Then we will know.
Those are tests. And it is the same thing that we can do to know if Joseph was a prophet or not.
DrewSRail 2 years ago
..Matthews explains that this is true of Mormon doctrine in general: the Bible was not the source of the doctrines the Prophet Joseph Smith taught. Rather, the Bible, so far as it is translated correctly, is tangible evidence that the doctrines he received by revelation were the same as those the ancient prophets obtained by revelation.
funnrun 2 years ago
According to Robert J. Matthews, professor of ancient scripture at Brigham Young University, writing in the LDS churchs publication the Ensign (I Have a Question, September 1981, p. 16),
Joseph Smith obtained the doctrine of salvation for the dead by revelation and not from the printed pages of the Bible ..
funnrun 2 years ago
This is plagiarism. This argument is being taken verbatim from IRR, please note and annotate when you are using someone else's words.
DrewSRail 2 years ago
............Joseph Fielding Smith, the tenth Prophet, Seer and Revelator of the LDS Church wrote,
"In my judgment there is no book on earth yet come to man as important as the book known as the Doctrine and Covenants, with all due respect to the B. of M. and the Bible, and the P. of G.P. which we say are our standards in doctrine. The book of D. & C. to us stands in a peculiar position above them all" (D. of S., Vol. III, p. 198).
Well ? This is very confusing?
some one is lying?
funnrun 2 years ago
Funnrun, please put the quote into context. I can see how it is confusing when taken out of context.
1. When was the Third Volume of the Doctrines of Salvation written? Was Joseph Fielding Smith the prophet when it was? Nope. Not for another 14 years.
DrewSRail 2 years ago
2. What did he mean when he said that?
He also said in that same volume and chapter:
"(T)he Bible's great influence for good is because it is inspired and contains the word of the Lord delivered to his prophets, who wrote and spoke as they were moved upon by the Holy Ghost, since the world began."
and
"We will cling to the Bible"
DrewSRail 2 years ago
and
"The Holy Bible has had a greater influence on the world for good than any other book ever published."
and
"When I say that, do not for a moment think I do not value...the Bible...just as much as any man that lives; I think I do. I do not know of anybody who has read (it) more, and I appreciate (it); (it is) wonderful; (it) contain(s) doctrine and revelation and commandments that we should heed"
DrewSRail 2 years ago
So what does that quote mean, funnrun?
Please read page 198 of Smith's book and tell me. Because he explains it, though Decker does not. He pulled the quote out of context to support his argument.
I think it is ironic that you are quoting Decker who twice stood before church authorities and denounced what he had written (and thrice denounced that).
So rather than go to the original source, you are relying on the interpretation of a man who has lied and denounced everything he has ever said?
DrewSRail 2 years ago
Now that is confusing.
DrewSRail 2 years ago
Joseph Smith:
"I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book."
ANY OTHER BOOK! again The Subject is Bible Validity!
No where does any of these men say the Bible is "THE MOST CORRECT BOOK"
Sorry!
funnrun 2 years ago
I stand by the comment as well.
Are you saying there are zero errors in the Bible? That through thousands of years, and numerous translations, and hand written copying, that there is zero chance for error in the Bible, and it is perfect?
Even the authors of the Book of Mormon admitted there were sure to be errors.
DrewSRail 2 years ago
Robert J. Matthews, professor of ancient scripture at BYU
"The Bible was not the source of the doctrines the Prophet Joseph Smith taught.
"THE BIBLE WAS NOT THE SOURCE"
( thank you Robert) again The Subject is Bible Validity
funnrun 2 years ago
You are trying to change the argument. Your original reason for quoting this was to say that the Joseph's revelations cannot be critiqued using the Bible. Matthews never says that.
Your beef has been that the LDS faith is "a few degrees off."
Matthews is stating that the manner in which Joseph received revelation is the same as ancient prophets (which is in line with God being a God that does not change).
DrewSRail 2 years ago
Your problem is with Your Own Prophet!, not Me!
I understand the Mormon faith does not think the Bible is Correct, & is Corrupt!
And that is why I'm not a Mormon, as is 99.97% of the World
The "biggest deception" of the Mormons is that their "Sacred Books" contradict each other, AND the Bible!, Thus all the confusion on the "Most Correct Book" in the Mormon faith!
You threats of removal and Blockage are typical Mormon, and only show your weakness and denial of your Prophets own words.
funnrun 2 years ago
I am unsure what you are talking about.
I have asked you to read the quote in context, which you have not done and explain it in context.
Quoting someone out of context is dishonesty.
Would you agree?
DrewSRail 2 years ago
I agree 100% with Fielding Smith, when put into context.
He stated that the Doctrine and Covenants "contains the word of God to those who dwell here now."
He was stating that following modern revelation is more important than following written words. The Doctrine and Covenants was still a work in progress when he wrote those words, revelations were still coming.
Christ said exactly this to the Jews when Christ walked the Earth.
They did not like that, either.
See John 5:32-47.
DrewSRail 2 years ago
Joseph Fielding Smith, the tenth Prophet, Seer and Revelator said :
"In my judgment there is no book on earth yet come to man as important as the book known as the Doctrine and Covenants,"........
NO BOOK!, and this would include the Bible, so who cares what other book he is talking about, The Subject is Bible Validity!
funnrun 2 years ago
Funnrun,
You have been invited to quote this statement in its context.
Please go back, read the quote in context, and explain what Fielding Smith means.
If you fail to do so, I will remove this statement as you are misrepresenting Fielding Smith.
DrewSRail 2 years ago
Bible and the Book of Mormon are both the Word of God?????
According to Who?
Not according to Robert J. Matthews, professor of ancient scripture at BYU!
and the last time I check he is
( AN AUTHORITY FROM THE CHURCH ( not you )
It is this exact kind of confusion from the Devil that keep his children from the truth!
funnrun 2 years ago
"Bible and the Book of Mormon are both the Word of God?????
According to Who?"
Article of Faith Number 8 (which is in the Pearl of Great Price, part of LDS scripture and doctrine):
"We believe the Bible to be the word of God...we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God"
That is according to Joseph Smith, and is LDS doctrine.
DrewSRail 2 years ago
So Robert J. Matthews, professor of ancient scripture at BYU is a flat out lair then right?
funnrun 2 years ago
It is your friend, Mr. Wilson, who took Matthews' words and said, "Do you know what this means?"
Professor Matthews never said, "the Bible can be used to support Latter-day revelation, but not to critique it"
That is Wilson's assumption. And Mr. Wilson is incorrect.
I am not calling him a liar.
It would have been better to reword it to state:
"the Bible can be used to support Latter-day revelation, but not to critique it using what I believe the Bible to mean"
DrewSRail 2 years ago
..Matthews explains that this is true of Mormon doctrine in general: the Bible was not the source of the doctrines the Prophet Joseph Smith taught. Rather, the Bible, so far as it is translated correctly, is tangible evidence that the doctrines he received by revelation were the same as those the ancient prophets obtained by revelation.
funnrun 3 years ago
Also in the article, Matthews explains that this is the exact same logic that Christ used in John 5:39, and he would be correct.
DrewSRail 3 years ago
wellDrewSRail,
that sounds nice, BUT the truth is a little different! According to Robert J. Matthews, professor of ancient scripture at Brigham Young University, writing in the LDS churchs publication the Ensign (I Have a Question, September 1981, p. 16), Joseph Smith obtained the doctrine of salvation for the dead by revelation and not from the printed pages of the Bible ..
funnrun 3 years ago
Thanks again for your comments.
Let's approach this one at a time.
First, let's be very clear about what the church wrote about that article:
In the article's header that you quoted, it states:
"Questions of general gospel interest answered for guidance, not as official statements of Church policy."
Problem two is that article states nothing about baptism for the dead, so I am not sure where you are getting that. But that really does not matter.
DrewSRail 3 years ago
Wonderful message. Love this man!
DefendingMormonism 3 years ago
great video thanks
solowookie 3 years ago
Always great to hear from an Apostle of the Lord. Well made Drew. Wonderful message.
kenzieclan 3 years ago
I Love listening to President Uchtdorf!
germans1 3 years ago
This is fabulous Drew! I will be sharing it on my blog
mormonsoprano 3 years ago
Thanks for sharing this video!
fanitaly 3 years ago
We had Stake Conference this past weekend, and Elder Uchtdorf spoke to northern California stakes in a satellite broadcast, and it was great! He gave a message of hope, of hanging in there on this economy, don't quit, have faith, and said that when the going gets tough, the tough get going, and that the saints in California were tough.
I hope he's right, because there certainly are some tough times to get through, and we need a lot of faith to make it. I was very touched by his faith.
mormonanswerman 3 years ago
Some basic rules for commenting:
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Unfortunately all comments that do not keep with these rules will be removed. We would love to hear from you, so please comment!
DrewSRail 3 years ago
"Some basic rules for commenting:"
do you post under a different username?
omiolo 3 years ago
Good vid.
chadreiser 3 years ago
great Job!! keep up the good work !
CTRman
ctrman4u 3 years ago
Thank you so much for sending this video. I know from personal experience this is true. I love the gospel so much and it brings great joy and peace to my life. I am so thankful for President Uchtdorf. His messages are always so spiritual and informative. I like his accent too! :) I feel so sad for the people who were on that plane. How scary that must have been.
jennysjuice 3 years ago
Well done!
canadianbacon007 3 years ago