I never said she was the greatest! there a quite a few greats, and its only a game you know!! and how can someone bring the worst out in their fans! what a stupid comment...
"Hoffenheim08" is operated by a local Steffi Graf Fan Club here. About a dozen members are regularily scanning YT for Steffi videos and are supposed to attack Seles/Serena/Navratilova/Hingis fans swiftly when necessary.
Okay Hoffenass, what illness or injury did Steffi have here in a her loss so you can make another excuse for her. You are such an ass, do you see how your posts make you look so obsessed and crazy??? If Steffi read these she would file an order of protection against you!
If Graf and Seles werent born in such a loser era with a no talent moonballer like Sanchez, that Sabatini clown, and a granny Navratilova, and dont even get started on the even bigger clowns like Cowchita Mootinez, neither would have anymore than 3 slams each max. Unlike the Williams who face an amazing array of power hitters or Navratilova and Evert who faced an amazing group of all courters.
@serenakicksass I've always felt the same way. I don't believe Graf would have made the career she did in an era where there was any real competition. The only player who could stand up to her was Seles, and a crazy (German) fan of Steffi took care of that.Look at the people Martina and Chrissie had to beat to stay at the top. As for Serena-don't be so quick to play the racist card.She'll get their due in time.That's the way history always works.You have to be retired or dead to be appreciated.
@Hoffenheim08 ...Billie Jean King, Margaret Court, Tracey Austin, Andrea Jaeger to name a few. Steffi was a ten years younger than the people you name. That's a generation in tennis. She trounced them, just like Chrissie and Martina trounced Maria Bueno and Francoise Durr when they were teenagers and the latter were in their late 20's and early 30's.It would have been interesting to see if Steffi could have become one of the all-time greats, but she didn't stick around long enough.
@Hoffenheim08 How about actually reading what I wrote before you post a response? More importantly: what is your point? Do you have a point? Personally I believe one should always have a point; it makes everything so much more interesting for the people to whom you are talking. You seem to like Graf. Great. So do I. A pity she quit so young. It would have been interesting to see if she could have stayed at the top while in her 30's, as did Martina and Chrissie.
Some joker said Navratilova had to beat Billie Jean King, Margaret Court, Andrea Jaeger as "real competition" (in contrast to Steffi) to stay at the top and suggested that teenage Steffi trounced Shriver, Sukova, Mandlikova in the late 80s because they were too old.
venus is not of this kind of queens (steffi, martina, chris), she never had won french open, actually the only active player who had won the four grands is serena
hoff talks about a graf scandel and blames that for seles beating graf in berlin.yet what he fails to look at is graf was on a hot winning streak winning something like 63 matches in a row.that doesnt sound like someone distracted by a scandel.she only ,lost cause she had to play seles and he knows it.otherwise the winning streak would have continued.i bet it pisses him off that a 16 year old girl could beat a 21 year old graf.seles almost beat graf at age 15 too.the signs were there in 89.
66 matches in a row and then she met seles you dumbass.the streak would have continued had she not played seles.the seles lost affected graf losing in germany in berlin you retard.boy are you stupid.look at agassi after he was number 1 losing to sampras in the 95 us open final look how that loss affected him.but u keep making excuses for everytime graf lost to seles.
Steffi would have lost to Sabatini or Garrison, too.
As she proved in the next weeks and months.
Seles had the big luck that she was the first top ten player to play Steffi after the beginning of the scandal. Why do you think Sabatini was able to beat Steffi in 7 of 8 matches at some point n 1990/91, genius?
wrong because the loss affected graf losing in her home town thats why she started losing you idiot.if graf would have lost to garrison or sabatini her match streak wouldnt have been at 66 you dumbass.once she lost in berlin to seles it affected her thats why she started losing.i already told u it happened to agassi too after losing to sampras.when agassi was number 1 and lost to sampras it affected him and he started losing to players he would normally beat.
She lost in Berlin and Paris in 1990 because 3 days before the Berlin final the blackmail scandal started to make ugly headline nationwide.
And what about Seles's magical powers that two wins against Steffi started a downward spiral for Steffi with tons of losses against Sabatini, Garrison, Novotna, Navratilova in the next two years (duration of the scandal) but two wins and no losses against Seles? What about this, dipshit?
the fact graf had 66 winning streak and then lost in germany to seles proves you wrong.dumbass.you can say the scandel all you want but its not true since seles showed in 1989 that she was already capable of beating graf in 89.thats why she played her so tough in brighton.the signs were there of things to come.you are just to stupid to see that.
Steffi lost only 3 matches against Evert and zero matches against Navratilova as a 15 year old. And she definitely was not thrashed like Seles was in Wimbledon 89 by Graf and at the USO 89 by (old) Evert.
no i think seles lost to hingis because she was only a shadow of her former self when she came back after the stabbing.she was only half the player she used to be.thats why she was losing to players like arantxa a player whom she dominated before the stabbing.the fact i have to explain this to you proves what a dumbass you are.
@jayfey77 you Graf and Seles fans are all a bunch of losers. You each think your player is the queen and keep rehashing the same crap arguments. Graf fan: "Seles won all her titles since Graf was in a slump, Seles was shit on grass (well atleast that part is true)." Seles fan: "Seles is god, she would win every slam forever if she wasnt stabbed." Both Graf and Seles would be taken to the cleaners by Navratilova or Evert in their primes or the Wiilliams sisters in theirs. Get over it.
@jayfey77 1-10 record vs Venus which is pathetic even for a past prime player. After all Navratilova in her mid 30s was still beating Graf and Seles many times. Serena was also nowhere near her prime when she played Seles, she was regularly losing to Capriati and had won only 0 or 1 slams, and still went 4-1 vs Seles, wasting 6 match points in the only loss. As for Graf she retired since like a coward since she was too scared of the Williams starting to destroy her once they improved a bit.
If Serena were white everyone would consider her the greatest ever or atleast top 3 all time. That is the reality of being black though. You will never get your due in this disgusting racist World.
here is another fact for you bitch.everybody but ur dumbass knows seles would have had over 20 grand slam wins and graf would have had under 20 easily.due to the stabbing.thats why seles had 8 grand slam wins at age 18.and graf had 0.
@jayfey77 who cares both Graf and Seles are losers compared to great players like the Williams sisters. Venus and Serena could destroy Graf and Seles from a wheelchair. Of the two Graf is better, Seles is a fat hog who used the stabbing as excuse for her failure to be more than a flash in the pan who was shit on grass, but even Graf found herself humiliated most of the time by the sisters when they were still in diapers in 1999. Far too powerful and talented.
if anyone wants proof that seles had a winning record over graf all they have to do is watch my australian open 1993 final.it shows how seles had a 4-3 edge over graf head to head.graf had 3 wins over seles in 1989 when seles was only 15 and seles was losing to many players that year that she beat later the next year.
wrong....Seles lost her first three matches to Graf when she was 15.... but then WON the next 4 out of 7 matches, taking away Graf's number one ranking, and beating Graf in 3 of 4 slam finals.........
@artisking In the years she was #1 in the early 90s (91,92,93), Monica's record against Steffi was 2-3. Steffi won both their matches in 1991, it was 1-1 in 1992, and Monica won their only match in 1993.
Once again, Seles lost her first three matches against Graf when she was 15 years old. Seles then WON the next 4 out of 7 matches they played, including two straight sets wins on Clay in Berlin (ending Graf's 66 match winning steak.....) and the French Open, Seles being the youngest champion in history.
In contrast, at 15, Graf was 0-6 against 31-33 year old Chris Evert and 1-5 against the slumping 29-30 YO Martina.
So, Seles was totally superior to Graf at a younger age.
@artisking I'm disputing Monica was a better player than Steffi at younger age. I happen to think Monica was possibly the best 15/16/17 year old who's ever played. What I was saying is that Monica lost most of her matches against Steffi when Monica was ranked number one.
But from the age of 16 on, Monica WON most of the matches she played against Steffi.
Your argument makes no sense. You say on one hand that you think Seles "may" be the best 15, 16, 17 year old ever, but Seles had her most success against Graf AFTER her 16th birthday......your argument makes no sense.......
In fact, Seles beat Graf 3 out of 4 slam finals (keep ignoring that fact), and beat her the last 2/3 matches they played, including the 1993 Aussie Final.
Once again, and maybe you are as a dumb as Hoffie, we aren't talking about after the stabbing. No one is disputing that after the stabbing Seles was not the same player.
But before the stabbing, Seles was superior, winning 3 out of 4 slam finals, and EASILY taking Graf's number one ranking, as well as winning their last 2 of 3 matches and 4 out of 7 matches......
Also, in their last match GS Final, Graf was beaten convincingly in Australia, 1993.
wrong from 1990 until the stabbing seles had a 4-3 winning edge over graf you retard.my australian open 1993 video i posted on youtube proves that it shows these numbers.
he is wrong graf had a 6-3 edge over seles when they met in the australian open 1993 final.but 3 of those wins came when seles was 15 in 1989 and didnt play a full year on the tour yet.from 1990 onwards till the stabbing seles had a 4-3 edge over graf.
artisking is right and ur wrong seles had a 4-3 edge over graf till the stabbing if you take away grafs 3 wins in 1989 when seles was only 15 and didnt play a full year on the tour.seles was losing to alot of players in 89 that she later beat the next year.
If we take away Seles's two wins in 1990 when Steffi was CLEARLY distracted from the blackmail scandal starting in those weeks and take away 1999 when Steffi was too old we get a 9-2 H2H in Steffi's favour.
wrong my video i posted on youtube proves u wrong.my 93 australian open video.with that win it gave seles a 4-3 edge over graf if u take away the 3 wins graf had over seles at age 15 when seles first joined the tour and didnt even play enough tournaments that year to be ranked.
Seles joined the tour in 1988, the year when Steffi won the Golden Grand Slam, and made it to #86.
In 1989, the year when Steffi rag-dolled her, Seles was #6 in the end. Conveniently you don't want to count her losses. And start with the first win in May 1990, just one week after the nasty Graf Blackmail Scandal started.
Again, Sissy Hoffie, you are ignorong what I wrote.....
When Graf joined the tour, she went 0-5 Vs Evert (15 Years Older than Graf) and 1-4 vs Martina (13 Years Older than Graf.....)
In contrast, Seles was 2-3 went 2-3 vs Steffi when she joined the tour, and BEAT Graf 3 out of 4 Slam Finals.......she also beat Graf 2 out of the last 3 matches they played, and 4 out of the last 7......
Oh, I forgot....Seles also took away Graf's number one...easily.
No, Seles went 0-3 vs. Steffi although Steffi was only 4 1/2 years older than her.
Steffi won 3 of 5 matches against #1 Seles pre-stabbing.
And no, you can't simply start counting with Seles's first win.
What if Seles had lost both matches in 1990 but won both 1991 matches? Would you have started to count in 1991? Of course you would. After all you are a Selesian ...
Nice try Sissy......let me phrase it in a way that humiliates you further.....
In her first 5 matches with Evert/Martina, Graf was an abyssmal 0-5 and a slightly less pathetic 1-4......in other words Steffi LOST 9 out of 10 matches........
In Seles first 5 matches vs Graf, she was 2-3........
Seles had A TOTALLY SUPERIOR start to her career than did Steffi........
oh yes she did and i have video proof posted on youtube to prove you wrong.just check out my seles vs sanchez-vicario 1992 us open final.seles has 7 grand slams there and then has 8 with that win over arantxa giving her 8 at the age of 18.go to the video and be prepared to be proven wrong dumbass.i provide video proof u provide ignorance.
Again, stop calling people "fag', you silly woman. You are PROJECTING....
EVERYONE KNOWS that your other screen name is the effete "Graf Girl", and that YOUR/HER page is dedicated to .....Women's Ice Skating......for Christ sake, it doesn't get any gayer than that.
Also, you wouldn't be calling me fag in person, because you are a p*ssy.
And either way, FrauHoffie, Seles took AWAY Graf's number one. And Graf could NOT earn it back.
all those victoried by hingis came after seles was stabbed you fool.seles was losing to players she would beat before the stabbing like arantxa sanchez vicario.so for you to go by matches played aftert the stabbing shows how desperate you are.
true seles was 0 and 3 against graf in 89.but she played her tough in 2 of those 3 matches.and she beat her the very next year.and had a 4-3 edge over graf when she was stabbed.if u take away those 3 wins graf had over seles in 89 when seles was 15.and 1990 wasnt seles's first year on the tour you dumbass.seles didnt even play a full year in 89 she only played a few tournaments that year.but you would count that cause u know seles was having a winning record after that over graf.
i dont give a crap about post stabbing cause seles wasnt the same player after the stabbing.anyone can see that.losing years off the tour while others continue to improve playing is not fair.sels had a 4-3 edge over graf when she was stabbed my australian open 93 videos proves that.
This is quite Sissyish and pretentious even for you, but lets face it, what could anyone expect from a "man" with a woman's screen name, dedicated to of all things, Women's Ice Skating, and who calls other posters "fag" when he CLEARLY Gay himself......???
And let me give you a little tactical advice. If you feel I am so beneath your acumen, why has it been so EASY for me to humiliate you?
And better yet, why do you insist upon posting to me?
distracted huh? how can she be distracted when she won like 63 matches in a row you retard.she only lost cause she had to play seles u dumbass.graf wasnt 15.everybody knows graf is better than jo durie but she lost to her at wimbledon when she was very young.so everybody knows its not fair to say jo durie is better than graf.except going by ur logic you dumbass.
Peak Serena would kick the snot out of both Graf and Seles anyway except on clay. Serena hits every shot much better than Graf except the forehand. Even her serve is clearly better, both 1st and 2nd, and that is one of Graf's biggest weapons. Graf is quicker and a slightly better forehand overall and that is it. As for Seles there is nothing she does better than Serena, return of serve maybe equal. Serena hits harder off every single shot, volleys better, and moves light years better.
@serenakicksass peak Serena cant even kick the snot out of Capriati so how would she do so to Graf and Seles. Serena had to go 3 sets with Capriati in every match they played at Serena's all time peak in 2002 and 2003, and lost to her often in 2001 and 2004 just before and after that.
Anyway back to reality from Selestial fantasy land where the true #10 or #11 best player all time (Seles) is magically the real greatest ever or something, wonderful performance from the real GOAT of womens tennis Martina Navratilova. Amazing how in her mid 30s she was still competitive with Seles at her career peak and Graf in a slump yes but still far younger and with a big advantage over Martina. One would have to think Martina in her prime would have dominated both of them with ease.
so you were left with Sanchez Vicario who was lucky she was a tough matchup for Graf but was Seles's pigeon (and later Hingis's even worse), Martinez who is a joke vs the big guns, Pierce who is nuts and plays great one big tournament every 5 years on average, and Novotna who pushes Seles but is Graf's pigeon from Wimbledon 93 onwards atleast.
Actually I do not think that Seles or Graf is the GOAT. I think that honor probably belongs to Martina but honestly I don't know if there's such thing as the GOAT.
I think having Graf at 15 majors if Seles never got stabbed is about right. Not saying that Seles would have won 3 majors every year but her confidence would have been affected by losing more to Seles and not being #1 and other players would have benefited from that as evident in 1991 when she was losing to a quite few players.
@doetim without the stabbing Graf and Seles would have won every slam from 1993 to 1996 probably. There wasnt anyone good enough to win a slam with both in the draw until Hingis. I think Graf having only 15 majors is hugely unlikely, but if that were the case Seles would have been on her way to winning well over 20. Personally I think it is very possible for Graf and Seles to have both ended up with 19 or more and both have more impressive slam records overall than Martina or Chris.
as for 1991, the 93-96 field was not similar to the 91 field. Martina was not much of a factor ever again after the 93 winter indoor season (other than Wimbledon 94 where all the big guns were gone or out early). Sabatini's career was going down the toilet fast. Novotna was spooked by her 93 Wimbledon final choke so never had the confidence to beat Graf ever again. Fernandez and Capriati also fell out of it, but they werent threats to Graf anyway. And Seles was now gone too of course.
1991 to 1994: Navratilova vs Martinez 0-4, Navratilova vs Graf 2-2. By the logic this is some form of evidence that Navratilova > Graf then Martinez > Graf as well. And since Martinez has terrible head to head with Huber and Date then Huber and Date > Graf as well. Huber's 0-12 head to head with Graf creates a problem now though so lets stop as this genius logic has gotten too complex.
"Have you nothing better to do with your time" says the no life loser Nicklas4500 who has nothing better to do with his life than post 24/7 on youtube on every video with Navratilova or Graf giving these sermons where he repeats the same things over and over trying to brainwash everyone into believing Navratilova is the greatest ever and scolding everyone who doesnt believe otherwise. You of all people asking someone else if they have anything better to do with their time. That is a laugh.
There is always going to be an asterisk next to Graf's name because of Monica's stabbing. I think Graf would have definitely ended up with fewer grand slams (maybe 15 at the most). Martina with her longevity and 167 singles titles deserves the GOAT title IMO. However Graf has the most breathtaking shot in the history of tennis, fraulein forehand!
@doetim@doetim I disagree, I think Steffi Would have won more than 15. Remember, she was winning Grand Slam Tournaments before Monica Seles was stabbed and when Monica was doing playing really well Steffi was winning Grand Slams . And who knows? Steffi Graf might have even raised her game higher if Monica was playing. Who knows how many she would have won. In my view 15 is way too low. Both Monica Seles and Steff Graf were very talented.
Although Graf was still winning majors when Seles was at number one in the early 90s, Graf was essentially winning the major titles that Seles wasn't, namely, Wimbledon. If Seles had continued to improve at the rate she was going before she was stabbed, she would surely have won Wimbledon at least once, and probably several times, between the years 1993-2000.
@newmark401 What is the point of what you are saying. "She was winning the majors Seles wasnt." Well of course, no 2 people win the same event, duh! It would be just as easy to say Seles was just winning the majors Graf wasnt since Graf was hardly ever losing to Seles at the majors anyway, she was losing to the likes of Sabatini and Novotna which hardly ever happened in her better years. As for ever winning Wimbledon if she were lucky maybe Monica could have won 1- 1994 when Conchita won.
@doetim 15 at most is like insinuating Seles was going to keep winning atleast 3 slams every year which is the only way Graf would have only reached 15 or less. Which is quite a stupid thing to assume and you are definitely in the minority on. And even if you do assume that then according to you Seles is the real GOAT I guess, not Martina or Graf.
@ants2876 Me having Graf at 15 majors is not because I think Seles would have gone on to win all the majors. Seles would not have won all the majors but with Seles being #1 and beating Graf more frequently Graf would have not had the same confidence she would have if she was #1 and therefore would have lost to a few other players below her too. This is evident in 1991 when she did lose to a few other players like Martina because she wasn't #1. She became more vulnerable.
@doetim And I still totally disagree with you. First of all I expect Graf would have still clearly been #1 in 1996 and won 3 majors as Seles had various problems this year, and that plus her 99 major. So that already takes her up to 15. And even if she won only 3 or 4 majors from 93-95 now she would already be up to 18-19. And I agree with beckerbombs too. The other girls werent good enough to win any majors with both Graf and Seles in the draw from 93-95. 1 at most if lucky.
@Hoffenheim08 Seles was not the same after the stabbing and only Graf fans would deny this. Btw I remember arguing with you somewhere else on youtube and got no where cuz you're one of those die hard fanatical Graf loonies. Goodbye.
@doetim I have not heard any "Graf fans" are you refer who said Seles was the same in the post stabbing years. Most players dont stay the same for 10 years anyway. Someone like Serena Wililams who is easily more athletic and overall talented than Seles has never even been at her own best for more than 2-3 years at a time. It is comical to suggest the only reason she wasnt at her peak level for a decade was the stabbing when there are many plausible reasons for this.
@grafgirl27 Of course you haven't you are another Graf fan. I argue with people like you so I come across many like the Hoffenheim08 person below whose comment does suggest that. Seles came back after a 3-yr break, she was still quite young and of course would have been better at that time based on expected improvements had she not been stabbed and was playing throughout that 3 year period and would have probably dominated tennis during that period.
@doetim so I am a Graf fan and you are a Seles fan. Your point? There are many reasons to believe Seles wasnt going to continue the same kind of dominance for long. Lack of athletic ability of a Graf or Navratilova, the likelihood of eventual injuries, Graf's improved form, her difficulty with future hard hitters, her fathers illness. Sorry but 2 years of dominance does not equate to a decade.
And Hoffenheim is only one person, he/she does not qualify as multiple Graf fans.
@doetim I'm not a Seles fan or a Graf fan, I enjoyed watching both of them play. It's very simple for me, I don't see Graf getting close to the 22 majors she ended up with if Seles didn't get stabbed. Very simple.
@doetim If it makes you feel better to think that only fanatical seles fans would defend her like I do then go ahead and think that but I'm not a Seles fan, no more than a graf fan. I like both equally but my fav is MN.
@doetim so even if anyone believed your bullshit statement you arent a Seles fan you still have a motive. To make Navratilova's best ever claims stronger you use desperate attempts to belittle Graf by phantom claims drenched in stupidity such as Graf winning only 15 slams without the Seles stabbing. I am also a MN fan and I believe she is head and shoulders above Graf but thankfully I dont need to push stupid claims to convince myself like you apparently do. MNs record speaks for itself.
@serenakicksass OK missy, take a deep breathe, maybe get a brown paper bag next to you to help you breath and calm down. I'm just stating hypothetically what I think Graf would end up with title-wise had Seles not been stabbed, that's not called "claims", please understand the difference before you go berserk. I didn't declare WW3 on anyone, relax please.
@grafgirl27 "and just as you are entitled to believe that if you wish, I and others are entitled to believe otherwise. Very simple. :) "
Of course!!!!!!
I've been respectful to all others, just debating here. I have not belittled anyone unlike others which I can't say the same for. What I said is hypothetical, not a claim and we'll never know what it would have been if Seles wasn't stabbed. That's just my guess and people are all going berserk and calling me bullshit, this and that. Relax!
@doetim You are crazy. I am not even a Graf fan but only 15 slams without the Seles stabbing, ROTFL!! Graf would already be at 15 slams even just taking out the whole 93-95 period. Let me guess you are another of those dumb ass Seles fanatics who thinks Seles was going to win another 3 slams per year until she retired. And you call Graf fans loonies. Hoffenheim is indeed a looney but you Seles fans are basically all Hoffenheims. You live in some alterior universe apart from earth.
@serenakicksass Not a fan of seles or graf but did enjoy watching both. I'm more of a Martina N. fan. I'm not the only who feels this way, many others do. The whole 93-96 period, again, would be contingent on whether or not Seles got stabbed and took a 3 year break, which did happen. we're going in circles here.
@doetim yes so just because you live in lala land and think Seles was going to continue to win 3 slams every year since she did it for 2 years and everyone else who chooses to be sane and rational and not feel this way like you you call an obsessed Graf fan. Yeah great logic there.
And Seles did play in 1996 and won 1 slam. Graf won 3. Fact. You earn your slams on the court not some mythical fantasy land. There are many reasons 1996 was different than 1992.
haha, you show that you know NOTHING about tennis to say that steffi was better by far. Martina won more matches,more titles,more majors, longest winning streak, 6 straight grand slam singles titles, and finished their H@H record at 10-10, even though Martina is at least 15 yrs older. If selse hadn't been stabed Graf would probably only have 12-15 majors, since she won 7/10 while seles was gone.
Completely agree. Martina was 5-4 up in slams on Graf and 8-5 up including YEC. She had the longest winning streak and 3 of top 5, best season winning percentage and 4 of top 6 seasons in open era, plus record 6 GS in a row. She won 60 more titles overall than Graf. She won this, their last meeting in a major, aged almost 35. Just imagine how many more she'd have won if her major rival, Evert, had been taken out as Seles was...
Not much difference. Evert did not deny Navratilova that many slams. 4 at most. Seles had already denied Graf 3 when she was stabbed so if you presume Evert was stabbed after denying Navratilova 3 already that would leave only 1 at most.
As for beating Graf at an older age King in her mid 30s on bad knees had a few smackdowns of an early 20s Navratilova who was already reigning Wimbledon Champion and had been #1 in the World. That alone shows nothing.
Good point about King - she was still formidable in her mid 30s on grass. I don't think she ever beat Navratilova at a slam did she? But agree that doesn't prove anything on its own.
I see where you're coming from with Evert: she only beat Navratilova in 4 GS finals out of 14. Are you discounting non-final meets as Evert did beat her 8 times overall in slams?
@Nicklas4500 I dont believe King ever beat Martina in a slam. I believe their first ever meeting in a slam wasnt until Wimbledon 1980 where they met in the quarters. King was 36 by now but poor Martina was having a very rough year on and off the court with her turbulent relationship with Rita Mae. Martina eked past a determined King 10-8 in the 3rd before losing to Evert in the semis.
My main point is people like King, Martina, Court and others who exceled into their 30s should be praised for doing so. There isnt a shame for other greats losing to those players at that age as long as you dont do it regularly and prime Graf and Seles did still win most meetings with an old Martina. The rest didnt but the Graf/Seles era was forgettable outside those 2 anyway. Evert lost a French Open final to a 31 year old Court but she is still the greatest ever on clay to most people.
Absolutely agree with that sentiment. My point is that an aged Navratilova won 2 of her last 4 meetings with prime Graf between 1991-4 including their last encounter in a major. (One of the two losses was 7-5 in the final set of a match that could have gone either way, so it could easily have been 3-1 to Navratilova.) Not sure if that counts as beating her regularly, but this was not an isolated incident - Navratilova stayed competitive with Graf right till the end.
@Nicklas4500 By your logic Conchita Martinez is a better player than Graf since she dominated Martina around this same time. 1 match is a year is not much to tell anything by. And Graf won 4 matches in a row vs a less old Martina in 88-89. Anyway this is around the time Graf lost 7 out of 8 matches to an overhyped clown like Sabatini. Martina in 1980 in a similar slump lost 3 in a row to a 15 year old Jaeger, the overhyped joke who never won a major title and retired at 18 to become a nun.
Evert had knocked Navratilova out of 3 slams by '76. Slams where Navratilova would have stood a very good chance of winning without Evert there imo would be:
Well I was thinking the slams Martina was likely to win. 1975 U.S Open and 1976 Wimbledon Martina was not likely to beat Goolagong. Goolagong was clearly the 2nd best player in the World and Evert's main rival at the time, and owned Martina at the time too. 1975 French I think she wins. 1988 Australian Open she wasnt likely beating Graf. 1980 Wimbledon she was out of shape/form and probably loses still. I agree she wins those 3 you mentioned likely too. So that is where I came up with 4.
I never said she was the greatest! there a quite a few greats, and its only a game you know!! and how can someone bring the worst out in their fans! what a stupid comment...
lexi69er 4 months ago
22 grand slam titles and she isn't 1 of the greats!! get a grip people!!...
lexi69er 5 months ago
@lexi69er
Yup. This is directed to all including the most delusional Graf fan. One of the greats, NOT the greatest.
volvariella 5 months ago
how does hoffenheim seem to find every graf video. I like steffi graff, but come on man!
sdn14 6 months ago
@sdn14
"Hoffenheim08" is operated by a local Steffi Graf Fan Club here. About a dozen members are regularily scanning YT for Steffi videos and are supposed to attack Seles/Serena/Navratilova/Hingis fans swiftly when necessary.
Hoffenheim08 5 months ago
@Hoffenheim08
Eeew. How sick.
volvariella 5 months ago
From Gunther Parche in 1993 and now we have Hoffenheim08 online.
Graf brings the worst out of her fans.
volvariella 5 months ago
@volvariella
Stop this dumb Parche hating!
Hoffenheim08 5 months ago
Okay Hoffenass, what illness or injury did Steffi have here in a her loss so you can make another excuse for her. You are such an ass, do you see how your posts make you look so obsessed and crazy??? If Steffi read these she would file an order of protection against you!
twilliger123 8 months ago
If Graf and Seles werent born in such a loser era with a no talent moonballer like Sanchez, that Sabatini clown, and a granny Navratilova, and dont even get started on the even bigger clowns like Cowchita Mootinez, neither would have anymore than 3 slams each max. Unlike the Williams who face an amazing array of power hitters or Navratilova and Evert who faced an amazing group of all courters.
serenakicksass 10 months ago
@serenakicksass I've always felt the same way. I don't believe Graf would have made the career she did in an era where there was any real competition. The only player who could stand up to her was Seles, and a crazy (German) fan of Steffi took care of that.Look at the people Martina and Chrissie had to beat to stay at the top. As for Serena-don't be so quick to play the racist card.She'll get their due in time.That's the way history always works.You have to be retired or dead to be appreciated.
assindiastignani 8 months ago
@assindiastignani
And whom did Martina and Chrissie have to beat to stay at the top?
Wendy Turnbull, Pam Shriver, Helena Sukova and Hana Mandlilova.
And what did teenage Steffi do with Pam, Helena and Hana (Wendy was done by then)?
It wasn't pretty ...
Hoffenheim08 8 months ago
@Hoffenheim08 ...Billie Jean King, Margaret Court, Tracey Austin, Andrea Jaeger to name a few. Steffi was a ten years younger than the people you name. That's a generation in tennis. She trounced them, just like Chrissie and Martina trounced Maria Bueno and Francoise Durr when they were teenagers and the latter were in their late 20's and early 30's.It would have been interesting to see if Steffi could have become one of the all-time greats, but she didn't stick around long enough.
assindiastignani 8 months ago
@assindiastignani
King turned 35 in 1978 when Navratilova won her first slam, Court had been retired for almost 3 years, Bueno was 38 and retired as well.
Jaeger was never able to win a slam. Austin was a top player for 2 or 3 years and overtook Navratilova & Evert before she went down due to injury.
When Steffi trounced Shriver, Sukova and Mandlikova in the late 80s they were in their mid-20s.
What about checking the facts before posting here?
Hoffenheim08 8 months ago
@Hoffenheim08 How about actually reading what I wrote before you post a response? More importantly: what is your point? Do you have a point? Personally I believe one should always have a point; it makes everything so much more interesting for the people to whom you are talking. You seem to like Graf. Great. So do I. A pity she quit so young. It would have been interesting to see if she could have stayed at the top while in her 30's, as did Martina and Chrissie.
assindiastignani 8 months ago
@assindiastignani
Some joker said Navratilova had to beat Billie Jean King, Margaret Court, Andrea Jaeger as "real competition" (in contrast to Steffi) to stay at the top and suggested that teenage Steffi trounced Shriver, Sukova, Mandlikova in the late 80s because they were too old.
Hoffenheim08 8 months ago
venus is not of this kind of queens (steffi, martina, chris), she never had won french open, actually the only active player who had won the four grands is serena
jjavitos 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
31 years vs. 22 years, 9 years are a lot, even that martina played her best tennis that glorious day.
jjavitos 1 year ago
31 years vs. 22 years, 9 years are a lot, even that martina played her best tennis that glorious day.
jjavitos 1 year ago
@jjavitos
Steffi beat Venus at Wimbledon 1999.
She was 30 and Venus was 19.
Venus had one of her best years in 1999 while Steffi had two of her worst in 1999 and 1991.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@jjavitos
Martina should be 33-34 years old... I think she's 11 years older than Steffi.
volvariella 1 year ago
hoff talks about a graf scandel and blames that for seles beating graf in berlin.yet what he fails to look at is graf was on a hot winning streak winning something like 63 matches in a row.that doesnt sound like someone distracted by a scandel.she only ,lost cause she had to play seles and he knows it.otherwise the winning streak would have continued.i bet it pisses him off that a 16 year old girl could beat a 21 year old graf.seles almost beat graf at age 15 too.the signs were there in 89.
jayfey77 1 year ago
@jayfey77
Steffi won 66 matches in a row, 13 tournaments in a row.
Then the scandal broke.
And she lost the next three tournaments. Only Selestards suggest this to be a coincidence. Because they either are extremely dumb - or simply liars.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
66 matches in a row and then she met seles you dumbass.the streak would have continued had she not played seles.the seles lost affected graf losing in germany in berlin you retard.boy are you stupid.look at agassi after he was number 1 losing to sampras in the 95 us open final look how that loss affected him.but u keep making excuses for everytime graf lost to seles.
jayfey77 1 year ago
@jayfey77
Steffi would have lost to Sabatini or Garrison, too.
As she proved in the next weeks and months.
Seles had the big luck that she was the first top ten player to play Steffi after the beginning of the scandal. Why do you think Sabatini was able to beat Steffi in 7 of 8 matches at some point n 1990/91, genius?
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
wrong because the loss affected graf losing in her home town thats why she started losing you idiot.if graf would have lost to garrison or sabatini her match streak wouldnt have been at 66 you dumbass.once she lost in berlin to seles it affected her thats why she started losing.i already told u it happened to agassi too after losing to sampras.when agassi was number 1 and lost to sampras it affected him and he started losing to players he would normally beat.
jayfey77 1 year ago
@jayfey77
Steffi never lost in her home town, genius.
She lost in Berlin and Paris in 1990 because 3 days before the Berlin final the blackmail scandal started to make ugly headline nationwide.
And what about Seles's magical powers that two wins against Steffi started a downward spiral for Steffi with tons of losses against Sabatini, Garrison, Novotna, Navratilova in the next two years (duration of the scandal) but two wins and no losses against Seles? What about this, dipshit?
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
the fact graf had 66 winning streak and then lost in germany to seles proves you wrong.dumbass.you can say the scandel all you want but its not true since seles showed in 1989 that she was already capable of beating graf in 89.thats why she played her so tough in brighton.the signs were there of things to come.you are just to stupid to see that.
jayfey77 1 year ago
@jayfey77
Hingis was able to BEAT Steffi as a 15 year old.
Capriati was able to BEAT Seles several times as 15 year old.
THOSE were really good 15 year olds.
Not Seles.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
Then Graf must have been the WORST 15 year old...
...she lost 9 out of 10 matches to Martina and Chris.......in STRAIGHT SETS BADLY...
Graf was FAR worse at a younger age than Seles, who was the youngest GS Champion in Open Era History and the Youngest #1........
......of course, taking that number one away from Graf......easily.
artisking1 1 year ago
@artisking1
Navratilova had many more bad losses as a teen than Seles.
She is far, far greater than Seles though.
Steffi is the most successfull teenage player of the open era.
A Golden Grand Slam - what could be better?
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
we aren;t talking about Martina.....we were talking about Graf.....LOL...
And again, GRAF must have been the Worst 15 year old of the bunch, losing 9 out of 1o matches, in STRAIGHT SETS, to Chris and Martina.....
Seles was totally superior at 15......getting tot he semis of her FIRST SLAM, and taking a set of Graf......
Right, Sissy Hoffie?
artisking1 1 year ago
@artisking1
Queerking and the facts - always at war ...
Steffi lost only 3 matches against Evert and zero matches against Navratilova as a 15 year old. And she definitely was not thrashed like Seles was in Wimbledon 89 by Graf and at the USO 89 by (old) Evert.
The greats ragdolled Seles!
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
Stop Projecting. Everyone Knows YOU ARE GAY. You have another alias, GrafGirl, and your page is dedicated to.......
Women's Ice Skating. LOL.
You can take the D*ck out of your mouth now. The cat is out of the bag, SIssy Mary......
And AGAIN, GRAF WAS KILLED by Chris Evert and Martina Nav. the first 9 out of 10 times they played.SHE WAS MAULED.
Seles?MUCH BETTER..2-3 against Steffi, including HUMILIATING HER IN HER HOME TOURNAMENt in Berlin, in straight sets.......
Sorry.
artisking1 1 year ago
@artisking1
Seles was 2-5 against Steffi before Seles turned 18.
Steffi was 3-5 against Navi before Steffi turned 18.
Damn, facts are a bitch ...
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
Hi, Sissy! Are you done watching the Women's Ice Skating!
But just for posterity, here are some facts: Seles beat Graf 3 out of 4 slam finals, taking Graf's number one away EASILY.
Why do you keep on ignoring that fact?
Does it hurt your feelings.....?
PS....Did you get the dress i sent you?
artisking1 1 year ago
@artisking1
BS.
Steffi beat Seles in 3 slam finals, faggie boy ...
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
Not before the stabbing, Mary! Come on now Sissy! You know the drill.......
Pre Stabbing, GRAF LOST 3 out of 4 slam finals to.......????
C'mon, get that weiner out of your mouth and answer the question.....
Monica Seles, the #1 player in the world......
Thanks, Sissy!
artisking1 1 year ago
@artisking1
Post-blackmail-scandal Steffi leads Seles in slam final match wins.
Ouch, facts are a bitch ...
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
No she doesn't bottom boy.......
Graf loses 3-4 slam finals to Seles, and her number one ranking.......
Sorry, but i did get you that dress.......
artisking1 1 year ago
@artisking1
Wot are you shrieking about, fag?
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
Do you do Drag? Do you do Steffi in Drag?
Thats it, Im sending you another dress, and this time bitch, i am also sending heels......
LOl, LOL, LOL.......
artisking1 1 year ago
no i think seles lost to hingis because she was only a shadow of her former self when she came back after the stabbing.she was only half the player she used to be.thats why she was losing to players like arantxa a player whom she dominated before the stabbing.the fact i have to explain this to you proves what a dumbass you are.
jayfey77 1 year ago
@jayfey77 you Graf and Seles fans are all a bunch of losers. You each think your player is the queen and keep rehashing the same crap arguments. Graf fan: "Seles won all her titles since Graf was in a slump, Seles was shit on grass (well atleast that part is true)." Seles fan: "Seles is god, she would win every slam forever if she wasnt stabbed." Both Graf and Seles would be taken to the cleaners by Navratilova or Evert in their primes or the Wiilliams sisters in theirs. Get over it.
serenakicksass 10 months ago
thats funny considering seles did beat venus and serena in their prime when seles was overweight and not the same player she was before the stabbing.
jayfey77 10 months ago
@jayfey77 1-10 record vs Venus which is pathetic even for a past prime player. After all Navratilova in her mid 30s was still beating Graf and Seles many times. Serena was also nowhere near her prime when she played Seles, she was regularly losing to Capriati and had won only 0 or 1 slams, and still went 4-1 vs Seles, wasting 6 match points in the only loss. As for Graf she retired since like a coward since she was too scared of the Williams starting to destroy her once they improved a bit.
serenakicksass 10 months ago
If Serena were white everyone would consider her the greatest ever or atleast top 3 all time. That is the reality of being black though. You will never get your due in this disgusting racist World.
serenakicksass 10 months ago
@serenakicksass
The greatest ever with only 37 titles but 100 losses??????
Don't be silly.
Hoffenheim08 8 months ago
here is another fact for you bitch.everybody but ur dumbass knows seles would have had over 20 grand slam wins and graf would have had under 20 easily.due to the stabbing.thats why seles had 8 grand slam wins at age 18.and graf had 0.
jayfey77 1 year ago
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@jayfey77
"seles had 8 grand slam wins at age 18.and graf had 0."
Yeah, sure , you dumb fucker ...
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@jayfey77 who cares both Graf and Seles are losers compared to great players like the Williams sisters. Venus and Serena could destroy Graf and Seles from a wheelchair. Of the two Graf is better, Seles is a fat hog who used the stabbing as excuse for her failure to be more than a flash in the pan who was shit on grass, but even Graf found herself humiliated most of the time by the sisters when they were still in diapers in 1999. Far too powerful and talented.
serenakicksass 1 year ago
@serenakicksass
I don't remember Steffi losing so many matches against mediocre players like the Williams sisters did.
And peak Steffi won slam finals with 60 60, 62 61 or 60 62.
No, peak Steffi would have run circles around Serena and completely destroyed Venus.
Hoffenheim08 11 months ago
if anyone wants proof that seles had a winning record over graf all they have to do is watch my australian open 1993 final.it shows how seles had a 4-3 edge over graf head to head.graf had 3 wins over seles in 1989 when seles was only 15 and seles was losing to many players that year that she beat later the next year.
jayfey77 1 year ago
wrong....Seles lost her first three matches to Graf when she was 15.... but then WON the next 4 out of 7 matches, taking away Graf's number one ranking, and beating Graf in 3 of 4 slam finals.........
Facts are facts.
artisking 1 year ago
@artisking In the years she was #1 in the early 90s (91,92,93), Monica's record against Steffi was 2-3. Steffi won both their matches in 1991, it was 1-1 in 1992, and Monica won their only match in 1993.
zephyruk 1 year ago
@zephyruk
Once again, Seles lost her first three matches against Graf when she was 15 years old. Seles then WON the next 4 out of 7 matches they played, including two straight sets wins on Clay in Berlin (ending Graf's 66 match winning steak.....) and the French Open, Seles being the youngest champion in history.
In contrast, at 15, Graf was 0-6 against 31-33 year old Chris Evert and 1-5 against the slumping 29-30 YO Martina.
So, Seles was totally superior to Graf at a younger age.
artisking 1 year ago
@artisking I'm disputing Monica was a better player than Steffi at younger age. I happen to think Monica was possibly the best 15/16/17 year old who's ever played. What I was saying is that Monica lost most of her matches against Steffi when Monica was ranked number one.
zephyruk 1 year ago
@zephyruk
But from the age of 16 on, Monica WON most of the matches she played against Steffi.
Your argument makes no sense. You say on one hand that you think Seles "may" be the best 15, 16, 17 year old ever, but Seles had her most success against Graf AFTER her 16th birthday......your argument makes no sense.......
In fact, Seles beat Graf 3 out of 4 slam finals (keep ignoring that fact), and beat her the last 2/3 matches they played, including the 1993 Aussie Final.
???
artisking 1 year ago
@artisking Including all their matches from Monica's 16th Birthday (1990 onwards), Seles had a losing record against Graf 5-7.
zephyruk 1 year ago
@zephyruk
Once again, and maybe you are as a dumb as Hoffie, we aren't talking about after the stabbing. No one is disputing that after the stabbing Seles was not the same player.
But before the stabbing, Seles was superior, winning 3 out of 4 slam finals, and EASILY taking Graf's number one ranking, as well as winning their last 2 of 3 matches and 4 out of 7 matches......
Also, in their last match GS Final, Graf was beaten convincingly in Australia, 1993.
Seles was #1, Superior.
Facts.
artisking 1 year ago
@artisking
And Zephyruk, please stop pretending to be a different poster than that pathetic effeminate loon Hoeffenheimer........
You are the same poster....... LOSER.
artisking 1 year ago
wrong from 1990 until the stabbing seles had a 4-3 winning edge over graf you retard.my australian open 1993 video i posted on youtube proves that it shows these numbers.
jayfey77 1 year ago
@jayfey77
1990 until this stabbing incident is an arbitrary time frame.
If we take the period when Seles was #1 she was 2-5 H2H against Steffi.
Worst record ever for a #1 player.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
he is wrong graf had a 6-3 edge over seles when they met in the australian open 1993 final.but 3 of those wins came when seles was 15 in 1989 and didnt play a full year on the tour yet.from 1990 onwards till the stabbing seles had a 4-3 edge over graf.
jayfey77 1 year ago
@jayfey77
1990 can't count either. Seles was just 16 years old and still maturing.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
yeah but it wasnt her first year on the tour you retard.thats why it should count.
jayfey77 1 year ago
artisking is right and ur wrong seles had a 4-3 edge over graf till the stabbing if you take away grafs 3 wins in 1989 when seles was only 15 and didnt play a full year on the tour.seles was losing to alot of players in 89 that she later beat the next year.
jayfey77 1 year ago
@jayfey77
Thanks, JayFey....defended you on another thread when Hoffie/McClernard/GrafGirl qustioned your match stats.......
this guy is such an unbelievable liar...thanks for clearing up the morass of bullshit......
artisking 1 year ago
@jayfey77
If we take away Seles's two wins in 1990 when Steffi was CLEARLY distracted from the blackmail scandal starting in those weeks and take away 1999 when Steffi was too old we get a 9-2 H2H in Steffi's favour.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
You cant take anything "AWAY"...she lost pure and simple....
Graf lost 3 out of 4 slams to Seles and the number one to Seles.....
Stop whining already, whimp.......
artisking 1 year ago
@artisking
That's BS.
They were 3-3 in slams pre-stabbing with Steffi winning the 2 matches in Wimbledon, the most prestigious slam.
Post-stabbing Graf leads 3-1 in slams, giving her a total of 6-4.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
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@Hoffenheim08
Wrong. In GS Finals, Graf was an abyssmal 1 in 4 in Finals vs Seles, pre stabbing.....
Graf, Pre-stabbing, LOST 75% of GS Finals vs Seles........a 25% success rate....
Pathetic.......but that is what #2 is for. To lose to #1........
And Seles was #1.......Graf #2.....
All facts.......
artisking 1 year ago
wrong my video i posted on youtube proves u wrong.my 93 australian open video.with that win it gave seles a 4-3 edge over graf if u take away the 3 wins graf had over seles at age 15 when seles first joined the tour and didnt even play enough tournaments that year to be ranked.
jayfey77 1 year ago
@jayfey77
And yet another lie ...
Seles joined the tour in 1988, the year when Steffi won the Golden Grand Slam, and made it to #86.
In 1989, the year when Steffi rag-dolled her, Seles was #6 in the end. Conveniently you don't want to count her losses. And start with the first win in May 1990, just one week after the nasty Graf Blackmail Scandal started.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
So what? When Graf joined thw tour she was "ragdolled" by Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova, both of whom were 13 and 15 years older than Graf.....
In fact, Steffi was 0-6 vs Chris, and 1-5 vs Martina.......Seles?
Seles was 2-3 vs Graf..........
artisking1 1 year ago
@artisking1
Steffi was 8-6 vs. Evert, 9-9 vs. Navratilova, 10-5 vs. Seles and 7-2 vs. Hingis.
Seles was ragdolled by Graf in 1991/92, Seles's two best years ever.
She lost 4-6 3-6, 5-7 7-6 3-6 and 2-6 1-6.
Her only win was a 6-2 3-6 10-8 struggle.
Losing 7 of 10 sets against your main opponent in your two best years ever.
Wow ...
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
Again, Sissy Hoffie, you are ignorong what I wrote.....
When Graf joined the tour, she went 0-5 Vs Evert (15 Years Older than Graf) and 1-4 vs Martina (13 Years Older than Graf.....)
In contrast, Seles was 2-3 went 2-3 vs Steffi when she joined the tour, and BEAT Graf 3 out of 4 Slam Finals.......she also beat Graf 2 out of the last 3 matches they played, and 4 out of the last 7......
Oh, I forgot....Seles also took away Graf's number one...easily.
LOL...all facts.
artisking1 1 year ago
@artisking1
No, Seles went 0-3 vs. Steffi although Steffi was only 4 1/2 years older than her.
Steffi won 3 of 5 matches against #1 Seles pre-stabbing.
And no, you can't simply start counting with Seles's first win.
What if Seles had lost both matches in 1990 but won both 1991 matches? Would you have started to count in 1991? Of course you would. After all you are a Selesian ...
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
Sorry, Sissy Hoffie, you can't just keep ignoring the facts........
Graf was 0-6 vs Chris, and 1-5 vs martina when she joined the tour......Seles was 2-3 vs Graf........
A much better record........
and you keep ignoring the fat that Graf LOST 3 out of 4 slam finals to Seles and the #1.......
LOL......
artisking1 1 year ago
@artisking1
No Seles was 0-3 against Steffi and Steffi was 6-6 against Evert.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
Nope, sorry Sissy.......
Graf was 0-6 vs Evert, 1-5 vs martina when she joined the tour......
Seles was 2-3 vs Graf....
A totally superior start to her career than Graf had........facts are facts.....
artisking1 1 year ago
@artisking1
When Steffi joined the tour she never played Evert or Navratilova even once, genius ...
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
Nice try Sissy......let me phrase it in a way that humiliates you further.....
In her first 5 matches with Evert/Martina, Graf was an abyssmal 0-5 and a slightly less pathetic 1-4......in other words Steffi LOST 9 out of 10 matches........
In Seles first 5 matches vs Graf, she was 2-3........
Seles had A TOTALLY SUPERIOR start to her career than did Steffi........
Fact.......sorry Frau Hoffie........
artisking1 1 year ago
@artisking1
At the same age when Seles was stabbed Steffi had already won a Golden Grand Slam.
Erm, did you say something, son ... ?
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
Actually, at the same age, 19 years and three months or so.......
Seles had won more slams than Graf, 8-5......
....and accomplished this BEATING Graf, playing in the era of Graf........and taking Graf's number one ranking....easily.....
And Who was number one? Who had won more slams at 19?
Did you say something, miss?
artisking1 1 year ago
seles had 8 slams at age 18 and graf had only 2 grand slams at age 18.so seles was way ahead on the grand slam count than graf.
jayfey77 1 year ago
@jayfey77
Seles didn't have 8 slams at age 18, you dumb liar.
And Steffi had no grand slam at age 18. She won her first and only grand slam at age 19.
Say, why are almost all Selestard so weak with facts? Too much living in a fantasy world?
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
oh yes she did and i have video proof posted on youtube to prove you wrong.just check out my seles vs sanchez-vicario 1992 us open final.seles has 7 grand slams there and then has 8 with that win over arantxa giving her 8 at the age of 18.go to the video and be prepared to be proven wrong dumbass.i provide video proof u provide ignorance.
jayfey77 1 year ago
@jayfey77
Seles was born in December 1973. She turned 19 in December 1992.
Until then she had won FO 90, AO 91, FO 91, USO 91, AO 92, FO 92 and USO 92.
That is 7 slams.
At age 18.
Before she turned 19.
Got it now, retard?
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@artisking1
What do you think is more important, about what do tennis fans talk still even today, fag?
Seles having won 8 slams as a teenager or Graf having won a Golden Grand Slam as a teen?
Hmmm ...
Graf was #1 for 377 weeks. Last time I checked this still was world record - and three times as much as Seles's weeks as #1.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
Again, stop calling people "fag', you silly woman. You are PROJECTING....
EVERYONE KNOWS that your other screen name is the effete "Graf Girl", and that YOUR/HER page is dedicated to .....Women's Ice Skating......for Christ sake, it doesn't get any gayer than that.
Also, you wouldn't be calling me fag in person, because you are a p*ssy.
And either way, FrauHoffie, Seles took AWAY Graf's number one. And Graf could NOT earn it back.
Sorry, HomoHoffie, but this is fact.
artisking1 1 year ago
@artisking1
Of course I would call a fag like you "fag" in person.
BTW, Steffi took back the #1 spot from Seles exactly 3 times, you liar.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
No you wouldn't my silly cross dressing HomoHoffie...
...you Germans are all alike. You can't get the job done face to face......you have to stab in the back, or attack countries half your size.......
....and you STILL LOSE in the end.....LOL.
...by the way, did you get the dress i sent you? Pink Taffeta, Bitch......I expect you to wear it when you cook me dinner.
LOL.......
artisking1 1 year ago
@artisking1
I don't want your dresses.
And yes, France and Russia are half the size of Germany.
Oh, wait ...
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
Oh, yes you do, Bitch, you want that dress...
....it's pretty! It's pink, it has tassles, and i ordered it large, for those thick meaty German thighs......
..you German girls get thick as you age.....right, FrauHomoHoffie?
artisking1 1 year ago
@artisking1
Why should I want a dress from an African fag?
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Hoffenheim08
Oh, don't be bashful, Frau HomoHoffie!
I know you are all excited to get your dress.....I bought it at an Ice Skating store for Plus Size women and the gender confused.
Seriously, do you cross dress? I really want to know.....I expect you in your dress cooking me dinner when I get home, you sassy German Bitch...
LOL, LOL, LOL.......
artisking1 1 year ago
the only good thing germans are good for is starting wars.we should have used the nuclear bomb on them instead of japan.
jayfey77 1 year ago
@jayfey77
Your Graf hate makes Steffi's success in sports and life even sweeter.
I'm loving it!!!
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
graf was just lucky the olympics were in 88 before seles was around.graf lost at the olympics in 92 against capriati haha.
jayfey77 1 year ago
@jayfey77
Seles was 5-15 against the second-best player of the 90s, Martina Hingis.
Steffi was 7-2 against Hingis, though.
Says a lot.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
all those victoried by hingis came after seles was stabbed you fool.seles was losing to players she would beat before the stabbing like arantxa sanchez vicario.so for you to go by matches played aftert the stabbing shows how desperate you are.
jayfey77 1 year ago
@jayfey77
You think Seles lost to Hingis in 1996-2003 because she was stabbed in 1993 ... ?
LOL!!!!
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
true seles was 0 and 3 against graf in 89.but she played her tough in 2 of those 3 matches.and she beat her the very next year.and had a 4-3 edge over graf when she was stabbed.if u take away those 3 wins graf had over seles in 89 when seles was 15.and 1990 wasnt seles's first year on the tour you dumbass.seles didnt even play a full year in 89 she only played a few tournaments that year.but you would count that cause u know seles was having a winning record after that over graf.
jayfey77 1 year ago
i dont give a crap about post stabbing cause seles wasnt the same player after the stabbing.anyone can see that.losing years off the tour while others continue to improve playing is not fair.sels had a 4-3 edge over graf when she was stabbed my australian open 93 videos proves that.
jayfey77 1 year ago
@jayfey77
And you want to suggest that Steffi was the same player in 1990-92 of 1993-99 as in 1987-99????
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
LOL.....this is pathetic, even for you....you must be getting really desperate......
artisking 1 year ago
@artisking
I have had far more sophisticated Selesian opposition on YouTube and elsewhere.
You are only low-level compared to them. A rag doll for me ...
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
This is quite Sissyish and pretentious even for you, but lets face it, what could anyone expect from a "man" with a woman's screen name, dedicated to of all things, Women's Ice Skating, and who calls other posters "fag" when he CLEARLY Gay himself......???
And let me give you a little tactical advice. If you feel I am so beneath your acumen, why has it been so EASY for me to humiliate you?
And better yet, why do you insist upon posting to me?
Doth protest too much.......
artisking 1 year ago
distracted huh? how can she be distracted when she won like 63 matches in a row you retard.she only lost cause she had to play seles u dumbass.graf wasnt 15.everybody knows graf is better than jo durie but she lost to her at wimbledon when she was very young.so everybody knows its not fair to say jo durie is better than graf.except going by ur logic you dumbass.
jayfey77 1 year ago
@jayfey77
Steffi only lost ttwice o Seles in May 1990 because just 3 days prior to the first loss the Blackmail Scandal became known nation-wide.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
you are wrong you idiot.seles was 4-3 against graf till the stabbing you retard.
jayfey77 1 year ago
@jayfey77
That's BS.
Seles was 4-6 against Steffi unitl the stabbing incident.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
wtrong 4-3 my video proves you wrong.
jayfey77 1 year ago
Peak Serena would kick the snot out of both Graf and Seles anyway except on clay. Serena hits every shot much better than Graf except the forehand. Even her serve is clearly better, both 1st and 2nd, and that is one of Graf's biggest weapons. Graf is quicker and a slightly better forehand overall and that is it. As for Seles there is nothing she does better than Serena, return of serve maybe equal. Serena hits harder off every single shot, volleys better, and moves light years better.
serenakicksass 1 year ago
@serenakicksass peak Serena cant even kick the snot out of Capriati so how would she do so to Graf and Seles. Serena had to go 3 sets with Capriati in every match they played at Serena's all time peak in 2002 and 2003, and lost to her often in 2001 and 2004 just before and after that.
grafgirl27 1 year ago
Anyway back to reality from Selestial fantasy land where the true #10 or #11 best player all time (Seles) is magically the real greatest ever or something, wonderful performance from the real GOAT of womens tennis Martina Navratilova. Amazing how in her mid 30s she was still competitive with Seles at her career peak and Graf in a slump yes but still far younger and with a big advantage over Martina. One would have to think Martina in her prime would have dominated both of them with ease.
serenakicksass 1 year ago
so you were left with Sanchez Vicario who was lucky she was a tough matchup for Graf but was Seles's pigeon (and later Hingis's even worse), Martinez who is a joke vs the big guns, Pierce who is nuts and plays great one big tournament every 5 years on average, and Novotna who pushes Seles but is Graf's pigeon from Wimbledon 93 onwards atleast.
beckerbombs 1 year ago
Actually I do not think that Seles or Graf is the GOAT. I think that honor probably belongs to Martina but honestly I don't know if there's such thing as the GOAT.
I think having Graf at 15 majors if Seles never got stabbed is about right. Not saying that Seles would have won 3 majors every year but her confidence would have been affected by losing more to Seles and not being #1 and other players would have benefited from that as evident in 1991 when she was losing to a quite few players.
doetim 1 year ago
@doetim without the stabbing Graf and Seles would have won every slam from 1993 to 1996 probably. There wasnt anyone good enough to win a slam with both in the draw until Hingis. I think Graf having only 15 majors is hugely unlikely, but if that were the case Seles would have been on her way to winning well over 20. Personally I think it is very possible for Graf and Seles to have both ended up with 19 or more and both have more impressive slam records overall than Martina or Chris.
beckerbombs 1 year ago
as for 1991, the 93-96 field was not similar to the 91 field. Martina was not much of a factor ever again after the 93 winter indoor season (other than Wimbledon 94 where all the big guns were gone or out early). Sabatini's career was going down the toilet fast. Novotna was spooked by her 93 Wimbledon final choke so never had the confidence to beat Graf ever again. Fernandez and Capriati also fell out of it, but they werent threats to Graf anyway. And Seles was now gone too of course.
beckerbombs 1 year ago
1991 to 1994: Navratilova vs Martinez 0-4, Navratilova vs Graf 2-2. By the logic this is some form of evidence that Navratilova > Graf then Martinez > Graf as well. And since Martinez has terrible head to head with Huber and Date then Huber and Date > Graf as well. Huber's 0-12 head to head with Graf creates a problem now though so lets stop as this genius logic has gotten too complex.
ants2876 1 year ago
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@ants2876 Your 'logic' not mine. Have you nothing better to do with your time?
Nicklas4500 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"Have you nothing better to do with your time" says the no life loser Nicklas4500 who has nothing better to do with his life than post 24/7 on youtube on every video with Navratilova or Graf giving these sermons where he repeats the same things over and over trying to brainwash everyone into believing Navratilova is the greatest ever and scolding everyone who doesnt believe otherwise. You of all people asking someone else if they have anything better to do with their time. That is a laugh.
ants2876 1 year ago
There is always going to be an asterisk next to Graf's name because of Monica's stabbing. I think Graf would have definitely ended up with fewer grand slams (maybe 15 at the most). Martina with her longevity and 167 singles titles deserves the GOAT title IMO. However Graf has the most breathtaking shot in the history of tennis, fraulein forehand!
doetim 1 year ago
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JimAsian1 1 year ago
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JimAsian1 1 year ago
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JimAsian1 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@doetim @doetim I disagree, I think Steffi Would have won more than 15. Remember, she was winning Grand Slam Tournaments before Monica Seles was stabbed and when Monica was doing playing really well Steffi was winning Grand Slams . And who knows? Steffi Graf might have even raised her game higher if Monica was playing. Who knows how many she would have won. In my view 15 is way too low. Both Monica Seles and Steff Graf were very talented.
Thanks.
Peace
JimAsian1 1 second ago
JimAsian1 1 year ago
@JimAsian1
Although Graf was still winning majors when Seles was at number one in the early 90s, Graf was essentially winning the major titles that Seles wasn't, namely, Wimbledon. If Seles had continued to improve at the rate she was going before she was stabbed, she would surely have won Wimbledon at least once, and probably several times, between the years 1993-2000.
newmark401 1 year ago
@newmark401 What is the point of what you are saying. "She was winning the majors Seles wasnt." Well of course, no 2 people win the same event, duh! It would be just as easy to say Seles was just winning the majors Graf wasnt since Graf was hardly ever losing to Seles at the majors anyway, she was losing to the likes of Sabatini and Novotna which hardly ever happened in her better years. As for ever winning Wimbledon if she were lucky maybe Monica could have won 1- 1994 when Conchita won.
grafgirl27 1 year ago
@doetim 15 at most is like insinuating Seles was going to keep winning atleast 3 slams every year which is the only way Graf would have only reached 15 or less. Which is quite a stupid thing to assume and you are definitely in the minority on. And even if you do assume that then according to you Seles is the real GOAT I guess, not Martina or Graf.
ants2876 1 year ago
@ants2876 Me having Graf at 15 majors is not because I think Seles would have gone on to win all the majors. Seles would not have won all the majors but with Seles being #1 and beating Graf more frequently Graf would have not had the same confidence she would have if she was #1 and therefore would have lost to a few other players below her too. This is evident in 1991 when she did lose to a few other players like Martina because she wasn't #1. She became more vulnerable.
doetim 1 year ago
@doetim And I still totally disagree with you. First of all I expect Graf would have still clearly been #1 in 1996 and won 3 majors as Seles had various problems this year, and that plus her 99 major. So that already takes her up to 15. And even if she won only 3 or 4 majors from 93-95 now she would already be up to 18-19. And I agree with beckerbombs too. The other girls werent good enough to win any majors with both Graf and Seles in the draw from 93-95. 1 at most if lucky.
ants2876 1 year ago
@doetim
How would Seles have beaten Steffi frequently when if as #1 Seles lost most matches even against a slumping Steffi?
Don't forget that Steffi was far better in 1993-96!
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08 Seles was not the same after the stabbing and only Graf fans would deny this. Btw I remember arguing with you somewhere else on youtube and got no where cuz you're one of those die hard fanatical Graf loonies. Goodbye.
doetim 1 year ago
@doetim I have not heard any "Graf fans" are you refer who said Seles was the same in the post stabbing years. Most players dont stay the same for 10 years anyway. Someone like Serena Wililams who is easily more athletic and overall talented than Seles has never even been at her own best for more than 2-3 years at a time. It is comical to suggest the only reason she wasnt at her peak level for a decade was the stabbing when there are many plausible reasons for this.
grafgirl27 1 year ago
@grafgirl27 Of course you haven't you are another Graf fan. I argue with people like you so I come across many like the Hoffenheim08 person below whose comment does suggest that. Seles came back after a 3-yr break, she was still quite young and of course would have been better at that time based on expected improvements had she not been stabbed and was playing throughout that 3 year period and would have probably dominated tennis during that period.
doetim 1 year ago
@doetim so I am a Graf fan and you are a Seles fan. Your point? There are many reasons to believe Seles wasnt going to continue the same kind of dominance for long. Lack of athletic ability of a Graf or Navratilova, the likelihood of eventual injuries, Graf's improved form, her difficulty with future hard hitters, her fathers illness. Sorry but 2 years of dominance does not equate to a decade.
And Hoffenheim is only one person, he/she does not qualify as multiple Graf fans.
grafgirl27 1 year ago
@doetim I'm not a Seles fan or a Graf fan, I enjoyed watching both of them play. It's very simple for me, I don't see Graf getting close to the 22 majors she ended up with if Seles didn't get stabbed. Very simple.
doetim 1 year ago
yes you are not a Seles fan, Seles is a Wimbledon legend, Serena doesnt know how to serve, and Safina is the greatest ever. Next.
serenakicksass 1 year ago
@doetim If it makes you feel better to think that only fanatical seles fans would defend her like I do then go ahead and think that but I'm not a Seles fan, no more than a graf fan. I like both equally but my fav is MN.
doetim 1 year ago
@doetim so even if anyone believed your bullshit statement you arent a Seles fan you still have a motive. To make Navratilova's best ever claims stronger you use desperate attempts to belittle Graf by phantom claims drenched in stupidity such as Graf winning only 15 slams without the Seles stabbing. I am also a MN fan and I believe she is head and shoulders above Graf but thankfully I dont need to push stupid claims to convince myself like you apparently do. MNs record speaks for itself.
serenakicksass 1 year ago
@serenakicksass OK missy, take a deep breathe, maybe get a brown paper bag next to you to help you breath and calm down. I'm just stating hypothetically what I think Graf would end up with title-wise had Seles not been stabbed, that's not called "claims", please understand the difference before you go berserk. I didn't declare WW3 on anyone, relax please.
doetim 1 year ago
@doetim and just as you are entitled to believe that if you wish, I and others are entitled to believe otherwise. Very simple. :)
grafgirl27 1 year ago
@grafgirl27 "and just as you are entitled to believe that if you wish, I and others are entitled to believe otherwise. Very simple. :) "
Of course!!!!!!
I've been respectful to all others, just debating here. I have not belittled anyone unlike others which I can't say the same for. What I said is hypothetical, not a claim and we'll never know what it would have been if Seles wasn't stabbed. That's just my guess and people are all going berserk and calling me bullshit, this and that. Relax!
doetim 1 year ago
@doetim You are crazy. I am not even a Graf fan but only 15 slams without the Seles stabbing, ROTFL!! Graf would already be at 15 slams even just taking out the whole 93-95 period. Let me guess you are another of those dumb ass Seles fanatics who thinks Seles was going to win another 3 slams per year until she retired. And you call Graf fans loonies. Hoffenheim is indeed a looney but you Seles fans are basically all Hoffenheims. You live in some alterior universe apart from earth.
serenakicksass 1 year ago
@serenakicksass Not a fan of seles or graf but did enjoy watching both. I'm more of a Martina N. fan. I'm not the only who feels this way, many others do. The whole 93-96 period, again, would be contingent on whether or not Seles got stabbed and took a 3 year break, which did happen. we're going in circles here.
doetim 1 year ago
@doetim yes so just because you live in lala land and think Seles was going to continue to win 3 slams every year since she did it for 2 years and everyone else who chooses to be sane and rational and not feel this way like you you call an obsessed Graf fan. Yeah great logic there.
And Seles did play in 1996 and won 1 slam. Graf won 3. Fact. You earn your slams on the court not some mythical fantasy land. There are many reasons 1996 was different than 1992.
serenakicksass 1 year ago
No one is the greatest. They all have flaws in their careers.
Evert eclipsed by Navratilova eclipsed by Graf eclipsed by Seles eclipsed by Gunther. Venus eclipsed by Serena eclipsed by Justine on clay.
volvariella 1 year ago
Serena Williams would teach them how to serve and bash the balls harder if she were competing in their time.
volvariella 2 years ago
Graf,is,the,better,player,by,far.
iamanabba 2 years ago
Not really. Martina dominated singles and doubles. That in itself makes Martina the better player. But not by much though.
kljMN2 2 years ago 2
haha, you show that you know NOTHING about tennis to say that steffi was better by far. Martina won more matches,more titles,more majors, longest winning streak, 6 straight grand slam singles titles, and finished their H@H record at 10-10, even though Martina is at least 15 yrs older. If selse hadn't been stabed Graf would probably only have 12-15 majors, since she won 7/10 while seles was gone.
MrPernell27 2 years ago
Completely agree. Martina was 5-4 up in slams on Graf and 8-5 up including YEC. She had the longest winning streak and 3 of top 5, best season winning percentage and 4 of top 6 seasons in open era, plus record 6 GS in a row. She won 60 more titles overall than Graf. She won this, their last meeting in a major, aged almost 35. Just imagine how many more she'd have won if her major rival, Evert, had been taken out as Seles was...
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
Not much difference. Evert did not deny Navratilova that many slams. 4 at most. Seles had already denied Graf 3 when she was stabbed so if you presume Evert was stabbed after denying Navratilova 3 already that would leave only 1 at most.
As for beating Graf at an older age King in her mid 30s on bad knees had a few smackdowns of an early 20s Navratilova who was already reigning Wimbledon Champion and had been #1 in the World. That alone shows nothing.
serenakicksass 2 years ago
Good point about King - she was still formidable in her mid 30s on grass. I don't think she ever beat Navratilova at a slam did she? But agree that doesn't prove anything on its own.
I see where you're coming from with Evert: she only beat Navratilova in 4 GS finals out of 14. Are you discounting non-final meets as Evert did beat her 8 times overall in slams?
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
@Nicklas4500 I dont believe King ever beat Martina in a slam. I believe their first ever meeting in a slam wasnt until Wimbledon 1980 where they met in the quarters. King was 36 by now but poor Martina was having a very rough year on and off the court with her turbulent relationship with Rita Mae. Martina eked past a determined King 10-8 in the 3rd before losing to Evert in the semis.
serenakicksass 1 year ago
My main point is people like King, Martina, Court and others who exceled into their 30s should be praised for doing so. There isnt a shame for other greats losing to those players at that age as long as you dont do it regularly and prime Graf and Seles did still win most meetings with an old Martina. The rest didnt but the Graf/Seles era was forgettable outside those 2 anyway. Evert lost a French Open final to a 31 year old Court but she is still the greatest ever on clay to most people.
serenakicksass 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
@serenakicksass
Absolutely agree with that sentiment. My point is that an aged Navratilova won 2 of her last 4 meetings with prime Graf between 1991-4 including their last encounter in a major. (One of the two losses was 7-5 in the final set of a match that could have gone either way, so it could easily have been 3-1 to Navratilova.) Not sure if that counts as beating her regularly, but this was not an isolated incident - Navratilova stayed competitive with Graf right till the end.
Nicklas4500 1 year ago
@Nicklas4500 By your logic Conchita Martinez is a better player than Graf since she dominated Martina around this same time. 1 match is a year is not much to tell anything by. And Graf won 4 matches in a row vs a less old Martina in 88-89. Anyway this is around the time Graf lost 7 out of 8 matches to an overhyped clown like Sabatini. Martina in 1980 in a similar slump lost 3 in a row to a 15 year old Jaeger, the overhyped joke who never won a major title and retired at 18 to become a nun.
ants2876 1 year ago
Evert had knocked Navratilova out of 3 slams by '76. Slams where Navratilova would have stood a very good chance of winning without Evert there imo would be:
1982 AO
1985 FO
1986 FO
So, okay, not that many!
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
Well I was thinking the slams Martina was likely to win. 1975 U.S Open and 1976 Wimbledon Martina was not likely to beat Goolagong. Goolagong was clearly the 2nd best player in the World and Evert's main rival at the time, and owned Martina at the time too. 1975 French I think she wins. 1988 Australian Open she wasnt likely beating Graf. 1980 Wimbledon she was out of shape/form and probably loses still. I agree she wins those 3 you mentioned likely too. So that is where I came up with 4.
serenakicksass 1 year ago