The reason he wants you to believe that a 2000 year old book of Palestinian Astrology (the bible) is the highest authority is because he wants his followers to give him money. That can only happen if they think that he has some type of authority to. It is the oldest con game in the world. I cannot believe the level of ignorance it takes to believe this crap but it still happens.
God = Jesus Christ = Sun (A Giant Burning Ball of Gas in Space) = Sun Worship = 1 Billion Christian Morons.
Deut. 29:29 "Mysteries unto the LORD our God; but the Revelations (the bible) unto us and our children, so that we can all obey all the words of this Law."
Because that's how they see the world. As black and white. Good and evil. Salvation or damnation. God, the perfect and us, the imperfect. There is NO middleground... Perfect choice of graphical identity.
@HKragh True Christians do not see themselves as perfect. We know we are not perfect at that, as long as we live, we cannot be perfect. No human is perfect or ever can/will be We do, however, strive to do good, know God, love Him, and serve Him. True, not all people who claim to be Christians live like that, but mediocrity seems to be the way most people go through life any more. Which is unfortunate, to say the least.
@TheCynicalPhoenix I have not said Christians see themselves as perfect. They are, if anything, very good at seeing themselves as UNperfect. What did you reply to?
You speak about mediocrity in life.
Many believers, walk through life being mediocre at basic knowledge about how the world works. And it's just an insult to mankind. We live in a time where ALL knowledge known to man, is only a click away. If you think you already have the truth, you stop looking!
I used to have nothing as my highest authority..I fell for the "worlds" ways, and believed ALL things they said were right, and legal, were right and legal to me. Which in the end mans ways broke me. I got saved and now I LOVE that the BIBLE is my highest authority. It saves me from a corrupt and evil generation. So much to say about the bible i LOVE IT SO MUCH!!!!
My highest authority is evidence. It's not a person. It's simply: Whatever you are claiming as some sort of truth, you should have ome evidence for.
It makes me sceptic to whatever I hear. And it makes me pretty sure this book is just a fairytale. After all, whatever evidence is present about the validity of the claims, are contained in the book itself. Never a good sign :P
@HKragh If you seek evidence, then seek evidence. Yes, the Bible is it's own validation, but history and archaeology, among others, are yet to disprove the existence of any one or any place ever mentioned in the Bible. Maybe not all people and places have been proven yet, but not a one has ever been disproven (nor, in my opinion, will any ever be). Seek it out. If you truly desire to know Truth, you can find it. God will honor your sincere desire to seek Truth and help reveal it to you.
@TheCynicalPhoenix Ofcourse the places existed. London also exists, but that doesn't make Harry Potter a matter of reality. I'm sure a person named Jesus existed. And I'm sure he was a very interesting guy, with some great ideas about society and morals.
And then the stories grew, like they always do. We see it again and again. They grew so large as to be unrecognizable compared to the events. That is my take on it. When magic and zombies are present in a story, it makes me highly sceptical.
@signofthehammer It's not like I don't believe what he says is real. I simply don't think he said it at all. He said many things, but I think various people said the rest. The stories about him grew out of proportion. It happens to this day with various personalities. And as soon as the stories gets going, they will get skewed beyond recognition. Don't tell me, guys and girls, you don't know of that tendency in your daily life. People just LOVE to add that extra 10%.
@signofthehammer And why do I come to that conclusion? Well, because the stories are just too much. If your son comes home from school, telling you of a boy getting bullied, you would believe him on his face.
Now if he came home, telling you someone had told him of a monster in the libary? Well, because of the nature of the story, you would demand more than heresay. Now imagine he comes home and tells you about someone being the son of God?
@HKragh So are you saying that Jesus did not support His claims? Because He did. Many times over. In John 8:58-59, Jesus identifies Himself as the "I AM", the name which God identified Himself as to Moses in Exodus 3:1-14. To deny that Jesus is God is a death sentence - John 8:24.
Now, if Jesus were "interesting" and had some "great ideas" then He must have said some good things, though you seem to indicate that you don't think He said anything that was recorded in the Bible. (continued)
@TheCynicalPhoenix (2) If you don't believe He said any of the things He supposedly said, then how can He be interesting and have great ideas?
If, however, He did said what is recorded in the Bible, then He seems to be a good guy, right? Well, He can't both be good and be right. Because a good person would not claim to be God. If a good person claims to be God, there's only 3 things that could be true - either he is a liar (which doesn't make him good), he's a lunatic (therefore crazy)...
@TheCynicalPhoenix (3) Or He really is Lord and God. So, either Jesus is not really a good person or He really is God. There's no middle ground here.
Belief in God (and therefore Jesus) is a matter of faith. As is belief in the Bible. If you don't believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, than of course many of the stories recorded in it will seem more like fiction than fact. Without belief in God, His power, and His divine inspiration of His Word, it won't make sense to anyone.
@HKragh Yes, I did read and I don't appreciate you indicating that I did not. I do not reply just to see myself type things. I reply with thought and care.
I will only reiterate 1 point: good people don't claim to be God.
Also, good people don't claim others to be God unless they also are part of the aforementioned groups.
So, if Christ was not God, then why bother at all? Why dedicate a book to someone who was "no one". Why die for a lie that you created? Seems rather pointless to me.
@TheCynicalPhoenix The reason I indicated you might not have read it, is because I came up with a perfectly valid way this could have happend, yet you list 2 possible ways (He's God or he's not good) directly after.
So it goes like this: Me: He was good, people made up stories. You: God or not good. Seemed like you just had not read my post. Can you explain what is wrong with the Good, but people make up stories, explanation?
@TheCynicalPhoenix "Why die for a lie that you created? Seems rather pointless to me.” -> many people have died for things that are not true, or cannot be proven.
@BaneOfAzrael Yes, but many of them did not create the very lie that they died for. Islamic suicide bombers feel like what they do is for truth and right, but they did not create Islam. Conversely, Christ's 12 disciples daily followed Him, heard Him preach, saw His miracles, and recorded His deeds. And 10 of the 12 died as martyrs. John (#11, if you will) died of old age but that was in exile on an island. So if the disciples "reinvented" Christ as God, they were fools to die for a created lie.
@TheCynicalPhoenix Let us again remember this is just a book. How do you know 10 of 12 disciples died as martyrs? Because there are stories about it. That is all. Stories. It may be one big fabrication.
Biggest problem: You use a book, and it's content to prove the book and its content.
It just isn't good enough for todays standards of evidence, I'm sorry to say. ESPECIALLY not when it's a book about magic and dead people rising from their grave. You should demand more...
@HKragh To you, it is nothing more than a book. To me, it is the holy, inspired Word of God. To me, it is truth. To me, it is real. Let us leave it at that, because there is no sense in us debating further.
You have your beliefs/standards. I have mine. They clearly don't agree. So be it. In death, we'll all know the truth of the matter.
For the record, I demand nothing of God. I have no right to demand anything of Him. He granted me grace, mercy, and forgiveness. That is enough for me.
@TheCynicalPhoenix He granted you forgiveness for being exactly as he created you... That is just a sad world view. And that is why I'm outspoken. Christianity is a degrading doctrine. When he created us he knew exactly how everything would turn out. He is present in all times, after all. If you can't create something without having to send more than 50% of it back to eternal torture, you did a bad job as a designer.
Simple as that.
You may feel his grace. I just see the evil of the system.
@HKragh In this, you are boldly wrong. God created us to commune with Him. Man sinned, broke fellowship with God, and doomed himself to death and separation from God. Man is a fallen creature. Man choose self over God when eating of the one tree God told them not to. 1 command, and yet man failed to keep it. Because we are fallen, we cannot fellowship with God on our own. Because of Christ's death, burial, resurrection and then God granting grace through faith, we can be restored with Him.
@TheCynicalPhoenix Can't you hear how simplistic this is? I mean, this grand universe, this grand master plan, destroyed/failed because a couple of teens ate an apple?!?! It's a more simple basic plot than most children's fairytales.
Is this really believeable by a modern brain? I give up, it's just too hard to do, without banging my head into something hard. Sorry. I'm sure you are a good fella, but to communicate with such a corrupted brain (by childhood indoctrination) is just frustrating.
-I never called them teens or implied the "fruit" was an apple. The Bible calls them man and woman, thus I perceive them as adults who God gave free will. In this free will, they choose to disobey God because of a lust for power and knowledge.
-A modern brain has nothing to do with anything. Logic can't solve everything.
-I'm not a "good fella". I'm female.
-I'm not mentally challenged or corrupted. I have searched my beliefs and found that I cannot believe otherwise.
@TheCynicalPhoenix That you chose to make a reply concerning the nature of the fruit, and how old these first people were when created, and what sex you are, tells quite a bit. But sorry for calling you fella, if it matters to you...
To believe this, takes a childhood of indoctrination. Yeah, sure, there're exceptions to this. But the MAJORITY of people can't believe this stuff if introduced to them at a later age than ten. Good day to you as well
@TheCynicalPhoenix "but they did not create Islam.’ --> so what your saying is that the disciples created christianity? and your ignoring that other religions have members who died during the time of their founders?
@BaneOfAzrael No, I do not say that. I say that Christ came and taught the basis of all that is considered Christianity. I recognize that others follow various teachers/teachings and died for those beliefs while the teacher lived on. But the difference in all of this is: that every man-made "religion" has had their founding teacher die. Christ, however, died, was buried, and rose again. He is still alive. This fact is what sets Christianity apart from every other belief system in the world.
@TheCynicalPhoenix " that every man-made "religion" has had their founding teacher die” --> Well if we want to deal with reality there is no evidence for the resurrection. And resurrection is not something that is not unique to Christianity.
But lets ignore reality and pay attention to all religions claims. Again, your wrong. In Buddhism (to name one) buddha Became enlightened and went to nirvana.
Your either lying through your teeth. or you really haven’t studied any other belief systems and pretend that you have, thereby making rather huge mistakes via ignorance.
@BaneOfAzrael Enlightenment and Nirvana versus 3 days dead in the grave, risen again, and ascension to Heaven are simply non-comparable. We can debate proof of Christ's resurrection, but we could also just as easily debate proof of Buddha and Nirvana.
Expressing my faith does not mean that I am lying through my teeth. I'm free to express my beliefs, just as you are yours. But I don't degrade and insult others in the process. Trading insults is no way to have a reasonable discussion.
@TheCynicalPhoenix "We can debate proof of Christ's resurrection, but we could also just as easily debate proof of Buddha and Nirvana.” --> exactly! both claims are extraordinary, and both are unproven. You seemed to be saying that the claim of resurrection made christianity special, the reality is every religion has claims like it or of similar nature.
if you read my post, I was simply providing an example to combat your claim of christianity being better than the rest.
@TheCynicalPhoenix "Expressing my faith does not mean that I am lying through my teeth. I'm free to express my beliefs” --> I know it doesn’t. Providing false information about other belief systems and misrepresenting them to try and validate your own is what I was talking about. I also mentioned that was one option. The other was that you are ignorant/uneducated on these other belief systems
@TheCynicalPhoenix "But I don't degrade and insult others in the process. Trading insults is no way to have a reasonable discussion.” --> calling you out on providing false information is not an insult.
@TheCynicalPhoenix As to the last part of your reply: Doesn't that seem a little backwards? You have to have a belief to understand the evidence which will make you believe?
Why would God EVER make a book like that?
Here's the right approach: Man doesn't believe in a God. Along comes God, makes a book with such compelling evidence, people believes it. The other way seems like an excuse.
If you aren't allready a believer when opening the book, you will believe even less when closing it.
@HKragh It could be backwards or forwards, really. If you believe the Bible is God's Word, you will approach it and treat it as such. If you don't believe but read it with the intent of deciding on it's validity, you will come to a clear conclusion by the end.
Being a believer is not a prerequisite to reading it or believing it. C.S. Lewis and Lee Strobel are 2 perfect examples of this. They were devote atheists reading the Bible to disprove it, and ended up converting to Christianity.
@TheCynicalPhoenix I just think an allknowing being would be capable at producing a better product than the Bible. After all he knew exactly how it would be received. If I wanted people to be saved from eternal torture, I would do my best. God wrote a book through mankind, and in a very simplistic part of the world, where most couldn't even read. And then he thought to himself: Job well done! No way. It just seems too simplistic to me. I expect better from a being capable of creating universes.
@HKragh You are making a typical error that many atheist fall into, wich is talking about bible inerrancy. You say the stories are just too much, but is that a real argument against the Bible being true or even the existance of God? Obviously not. Emotional reactions are not arguments at all. You need to provide historical evidence in order to disprove the case, and let me say, it'll be hard for you to find any I see evidence supporting christianity, none supporting atheism.
@signofthehammer The simplistic nature of the Bible doesn't disproves God.. It is exactly as complicated as the times in which it were written. It has exactly the amount of knowledge within, as the people possesed in those times. I expect more of a book which is said to be written by the being who created this complicated place we call the universe. So it's not a proof. It's an indication. I don't need to disprove, you need to prove. I just can't believe this story before I see some evidence.
@HKragh You're committing a philosophical falacy by saying: "Because the Bible doesn't meet my expectations, it must be false". Also there is evidence, plenty un fact. If you're talking about the existance of God, there are several arguments like the cosmological, the contingency, the moral, the design or the ontological arguments. If you're talking about Jesus resurrection, there are undeniable facts proven by the majority of scholars wich you would have to disprove and make a case of your own.
@signofthehammer No... there aren't undeniable facts proven by the majority of scholars. If there were, this wouldn't be a matter of faith, would it? Who told you this? Your pastor?
All there is are stories. There is nothing beyond that. And stories would NEVER be enough to prove anything. And yes, if you read a piece of work from the creator of this place, and can't find one single thing in it, which wasn't known to mankind at the time, you take the conclusion it is probably written by man.
@HKragh Well I didn't say the facts, so I don't know why you say there aren't proven. Anyway, here they are: 1)Jesus' empty tomb. 2) Jesus appearances alive after his death, and 3)the origin of the disciples belief in His resurrection. Those are 3 facts recognized by the inmense majority of scholars. The best explanation for these facts is God raised Jesus from the dead. If you want to present other hypothesis, be sure they haven't been dismissed already as imposible or innaccurate.
2) Jesus appearance alive after his death. A story in the Bible.
3) The origin of the disciples belief in His resurrection. A story in the Bible.
Ok, so now I need some facts which aren't stories in an old book. Because authors of books can write all sorts of stuff. I'm sure you would agree rising from the grave is a serious issue, which we need some serious evidence for. Some external evidence from the book describing the event.
@HKragh MY HEART EXPERIENCE IS ENOUGH OR READ THAT NEW BOOK HEAVEN IS REAL BY THAT KID...DESCRIBES HOW HE MET HIS SISTER..HE WASN't even told about a miscarriage by his parents & said her name..EXPLAIN THAT WITH SCIENCE OR PEOPLE HEALED RIGHT NOW!!
@HKragh Also, the "all there is are stories" argument is invalid, because there're not just stories, but historical testimonies that come as evidence for historical facts. How do you think we know about Napoleon or Alejandro Magno. Why don't you say all those are stories? The difference is that there are supernatural things happening in Jesus' case, and, as dificult as it is to take it serious, it may well be the case that it happened. Remember emotions don't count as evidence.
@signofthehammer We know about those people through many different authors, and through actual leftovers from their reign. So, evidence besides the historical documents describing them. Even if we didn't have other than stories, we trust those because they are about regular people, doing something, within physical reality, which changed the world. As soon as magic, living dead, miracles and whatnot is invoked, the level of evidence needed to varify, rises drastically.
@signofthehammer The level of evidence needed, is directly proportional with the seriousness of the claim.
So if you claim you ate chicken yesterday, I need very little evidence.
If you claim you can fly, I need more...
For instance in the "I can fly" example, I would need more than a stories describing your ability. I would demand more than eyewitnesses. It would be so extraordinary, I would need some serious testing in a laboratory.
So it's a matter of the seriousness of the claim.
@HKragh You're wrong, there are other testimonies outside the bible about Jesus. Also dismissing the Bible as a historical source is laughable at best, no history nor new testament scholar would take you serious. You're also wrong about other historical personalities, as Jesus is the historical person from who we have more data. Again, saying it seems imposible for you is not an argument, because it could still well be the case that all that happened. You're left with agnosticism at best.
@HKragh "The level of evidence needed, is directly proportional with the seriousness of the claim." That's why Jesus is the historical person with more data compiled than any other. I see nothing wrong in the claim Jesus was resurrected from the dead by God, because God could do that. the fact that NOBODY at that time remotely believed in physical resurrection and yet they all present testimony about Jesus resurrecting is something to be looked at.
@HKragh NO MORE THAN ONE EYEWITNESS PROBABILITY OF ALL OF THEM LYING IS MINISCULE UNLESS THEY KNEW EACH OTHER in YOUR CHICKEN EXAMPLE, WHO CARES ABOUT IT JUS SAY YES TO JESUS YOUR LIFE WILL BE BETTER AND EMBRACE FORGIVENESS...TELLING YOU..I WAS SLEEPING OUTSIDE IN PARK AND BUSHES..JUS DELIVERED FROM JAIL, HOMOSEXUALITY..AMAZING GOD IS POWERFUL AND GOOD..JUS SAY YES TO HIM!!
@SoCaLhauser I don't know what to say to you, we communicate and experience the world on different levels. And writing in upper case letters won't help your message, I asure you.
The reason he wants you to believe that a 2000 year old book of Palestinian Astrology (the bible) is the highest authority is because he wants his followers to give him money. That can only happen if they think that he has some type of authority to. It is the oldest con game in the world. I cannot believe the level of ignorance it takes to believe this crap but it still happens.
God = Jesus Christ = Sun (A Giant Burning Ball of Gas in Space) = Sun Worship = 1 Billion Christian Morons.
mymojorisin 1 month ago
Truth. Thanks, Mark.
richcook99 1 month ago
:-)
StareHamry 1 month ago
II Tim. 3:16 "All Scripture is God-breathed ..."
Deut. 29:29 "Mysteries unto the LORD our God; but the Revelations (the bible) unto us and our children, so that we can all obey all the words of this Law."
wjcharlieee 1 month ago
Because it's easier than thinking for yourself.
brajamtho757 1 month ago
Two questions, 1. Please tell me why anyone should make a book of ancient myths their highest authority?
2. Once a person has made the Bible their highest authority, how could they ever be convinced that had made a mistake in doing so.
SamWiseGingy 1 month ago
@ mhcseattle,
Why are all these videos in black and white now?
cleanentertainer 1 month ago
@cleanentertainer
Because that's how they see the world. As black and white. Good and evil. Salvation or damnation. God, the perfect and us, the imperfect. There is NO middleground... Perfect choice of graphical identity.
;)
HKragh 1 month ago
@HKragh True Christians do not see themselves as perfect. We know we are not perfect at that, as long as we live, we cannot be perfect. No human is perfect or ever can/will be We do, however, strive to do good, know God, love Him, and serve Him. True, not all people who claim to be Christians live like that, but mediocrity seems to be the way most people go through life any more. Which is unfortunate, to say the least.
TheCynicalPhoenix 1 month ago
@TheCynicalPhoenix I have not said Christians see themselves as perfect. They are, if anything, very good at seeing themselves as UNperfect. What did you reply to?
You speak about mediocrity in life.
Many believers, walk through life being mediocre at basic knowledge about how the world works. And it's just an insult to mankind. We live in a time where ALL knowledge known to man, is only a click away. If you think you already have the truth, you stop looking!
HKragh 1 month ago
@TheCynicalPhoenix Oh, you are probably refering to my post about graphical identity. I tried to convey "God: Perfect. Mankind: imperfect."
HKragh 1 month ago
I used to have nothing as my highest authority..I fell for the "worlds" ways, and believed ALL things they said were right, and legal, were right and legal to me. Which in the end mans ways broke me. I got saved and now I LOVE that the BIBLE is my highest authority. It saves me from a corrupt and evil generation. So much to say about the bible i LOVE IT SO MUCH!!!!
chrissy4him30 1 month ago
It saves me from my self and this constant changing world!!!!
chrissy4him30 1 month ago
My highest authority is evidence. It's not a person. It's simply: Whatever you are claiming as some sort of truth, you should have ome evidence for.
It makes me sceptic to whatever I hear. And it makes me pretty sure this book is just a fairytale. After all, whatever evidence is present about the validity of the claims, are contained in the book itself. Never a good sign :P
HKragh 1 month ago
@HKragh If you seek evidence, then seek evidence. Yes, the Bible is it's own validation, but history and archaeology, among others, are yet to disprove the existence of any one or any place ever mentioned in the Bible. Maybe not all people and places have been proven yet, but not a one has ever been disproven (nor, in my opinion, will any ever be). Seek it out. If you truly desire to know Truth, you can find it. God will honor your sincere desire to seek Truth and help reveal it to you.
TheCynicalPhoenix 1 month ago
@TheCynicalPhoenix Ofcourse the places existed. London also exists, but that doesn't make Harry Potter a matter of reality. I'm sure a person named Jesus existed. And I'm sure he was a very interesting guy, with some great ideas about society and morals.
And then the stories grew, like they always do. We see it again and again. They grew so large as to be unrecognizable compared to the events. That is my take on it. When magic and zombies are present in a story, it makes me highly sceptical.
HKragh 1 month ago
@HKragh Why is it that you believe Jesus was real but you don't believe what he says is real? How did you come to that conclusion?
signofthehammer 1 month ago
@signofthehammer It's not like I don't believe what he says is real. I simply don't think he said it at all. He said many things, but I think various people said the rest. The stories about him grew out of proportion. It happens to this day with various personalities. And as soon as the stories gets going, they will get skewed beyond recognition. Don't tell me, guys and girls, you don't know of that tendency in your daily life. People just LOVE to add that extra 10%.
HKragh 1 month ago
@signofthehammer And why do I come to that conclusion? Well, because the stories are just too much. If your son comes home from school, telling you of a boy getting bullied, you would believe him on his face.
Now if he came home, telling you someone had told him of a monster in the libary? Well, because of the nature of the story, you would demand more than heresay. Now imagine he comes home and tells you about someone being the son of God?
The evidence has to reflect the claim being made.
HKragh 1 month ago
@HKragh So are you saying that Jesus did not support His claims? Because He did. Many times over. In John 8:58-59, Jesus identifies Himself as the "I AM", the name which God identified Himself as to Moses in Exodus 3:1-14. To deny that Jesus is God is a death sentence - John 8:24.
Now, if Jesus were "interesting" and had some "great ideas" then He must have said some good things, though you seem to indicate that you don't think He said anything that was recorded in the Bible. (continued)
TheCynicalPhoenix 1 month ago
@TheCynicalPhoenix (2) If you don't believe He said any of the things He supposedly said, then how can He be interesting and have great ideas?
If, however, He did said what is recorded in the Bible, then He seems to be a good guy, right? Well, He can't both be good and be right. Because a good person would not claim to be God. If a good person claims to be God, there's only 3 things that could be true - either he is a liar (which doesn't make him good), he's a lunatic (therefore crazy)...
TheCynicalPhoenix 1 month ago
@TheCynicalPhoenix (3) Or He really is Lord and God. So, either Jesus is not really a good person or He really is God. There's no middle ground here.
Belief in God (and therefore Jesus) is a matter of faith. As is belief in the Bible. If you don't believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, than of course many of the stories recorded in it will seem more like fiction than fact. Without belief in God, His power, and His divine inspiration of His Word, it won't make sense to anyone.
TheCynicalPhoenix 1 month ago
@TheCynicalPhoenix Did you read my post? Your reply indicates not. You name two possibilities:
1) He's God!
or:
2) He's not a good person.
What about:
3) He was a good person, and after his dead, people added to the character of him until, one day, he was claimed to be God.
Or:
4) He was a person with good ideas, but was a little mentally disturbed, and claimed he was God.
You can actually be good, have great ideas AND be a little... off.
But I personally lean towards 3.
HKragh 1 month ago
@HKragh Yes, I did read and I don't appreciate you indicating that I did not. I do not reply just to see myself type things. I reply with thought and care.
I will only reiterate 1 point: good people don't claim to be God.
Also, good people don't claim others to be God unless they also are part of the aforementioned groups.
So, if Christ was not God, then why bother at all? Why dedicate a book to someone who was "no one". Why die for a lie that you created? Seems rather pointless to me.
TheCynicalPhoenix 1 month ago
@TheCynicalPhoenix The reason I indicated you might not have read it, is because I came up with a perfectly valid way this could have happend, yet you list 2 possible ways (He's God or he's not good) directly after.
So it goes like this: Me: He was good, people made up stories. You: God or not good. Seemed like you just had not read my post. Can you explain what is wrong with the Good, but people make up stories, explanation?
HKragh 1 month ago
@TheCynicalPhoenix "Why die for a lie that you created? Seems rather pointless to me.” -> many people have died for things that are not true, or cannot be proven.
BaneOfAzrael 1 month ago
@BaneOfAzrael Yes, but many of them did not create the very lie that they died for. Islamic suicide bombers feel like what they do is for truth and right, but they did not create Islam. Conversely, Christ's 12 disciples daily followed Him, heard Him preach, saw His miracles, and recorded His deeds. And 10 of the 12 died as martyrs. John (#11, if you will) died of old age but that was in exile on an island. So if the disciples "reinvented" Christ as God, they were fools to die for a created lie.
TheCynicalPhoenix 1 month ago 6
@TheCynicalPhoenix Let us again remember this is just a book. How do you know 10 of 12 disciples died as martyrs? Because there are stories about it. That is all. Stories. It may be one big fabrication.
Biggest problem: You use a book, and it's content to prove the book and its content.
It just isn't good enough for todays standards of evidence, I'm sorry to say. ESPECIALLY not when it's a book about magic and dead people rising from their grave. You should demand more...
HKragh 1 month ago
@HKragh To you, it is nothing more than a book. To me, it is the holy, inspired Word of God. To me, it is truth. To me, it is real. Let us leave it at that, because there is no sense in us debating further.
You have your beliefs/standards. I have mine. They clearly don't agree. So be it. In death, we'll all know the truth of the matter.
For the record, I demand nothing of God. I have no right to demand anything of Him. He granted me grace, mercy, and forgiveness. That is enough for me.
TheCynicalPhoenix 1 month ago
@TheCynicalPhoenix He granted you forgiveness for being exactly as he created you... That is just a sad world view. And that is why I'm outspoken. Christianity is a degrading doctrine. When he created us he knew exactly how everything would turn out. He is present in all times, after all. If you can't create something without having to send more than 50% of it back to eternal torture, you did a bad job as a designer.
Simple as that.
You may feel his grace. I just see the evil of the system.
HKragh 1 month ago
@HKragh In this, you are boldly wrong. God created us to commune with Him. Man sinned, broke fellowship with God, and doomed himself to death and separation from God. Man is a fallen creature. Man choose self over God when eating of the one tree God told them not to. 1 command, and yet man failed to keep it. Because we are fallen, we cannot fellowship with God on our own. Because of Christ's death, burial, resurrection and then God granting grace through faith, we can be restored with Him.
TheCynicalPhoenix 1 month ago
@TheCynicalPhoenix Can't you hear how simplistic this is? I mean, this grand universe, this grand master plan, destroyed/failed because a couple of teens ate an apple?!?! It's a more simple basic plot than most children's fairytales.
Is this really believeable by a modern brain? I give up, it's just too hard to do, without banging my head into something hard. Sorry. I'm sure you are a good fella, but to communicate with such a corrupted brain (by childhood indoctrination) is just frustrating.
HKragh 1 month ago
@HKragh
-I never called them teens or implied the "fruit" was an apple. The Bible calls them man and woman, thus I perceive them as adults who God gave free will. In this free will, they choose to disobey God because of a lust for power and knowledge.
-A modern brain has nothing to do with anything. Logic can't solve everything.
-I'm not a "good fella". I'm female.
-I'm not mentally challenged or corrupted. I have searched my beliefs and found that I cannot believe otherwise.
Good day.
TheCynicalPhoenix 1 month ago
@TheCynicalPhoenix That you chose to make a reply concerning the nature of the fruit, and how old these first people were when created, and what sex you are, tells quite a bit. But sorry for calling you fella, if it matters to you...
To believe this, takes a childhood of indoctrination. Yeah, sure, there're exceptions to this. But the MAJORITY of people can't believe this stuff if introduced to them at a later age than ten. Good day to you as well
HKragh 1 month ago
@TheCynicalPhoenix "but they did not create Islam.’ --> so what your saying is that the disciples created christianity? and your ignoring that other religions have members who died during the time of their founders?
BaneOfAzrael 1 month ago
@BaneOfAzrael No, I do not say that. I say that Christ came and taught the basis of all that is considered Christianity. I recognize that others follow various teachers/teachings and died for those beliefs while the teacher lived on. But the difference in all of this is: that every man-made "religion" has had their founding teacher die. Christ, however, died, was buried, and rose again. He is still alive. This fact is what sets Christianity apart from every other belief system in the world.
TheCynicalPhoenix 1 month ago
@TheCynicalPhoenix " that every man-made "religion" has had their founding teacher die” --> Well if we want to deal with reality there is no evidence for the resurrection. And resurrection is not something that is not unique to Christianity.
But lets ignore reality and pay attention to all religions claims. Again, your wrong. In Buddhism (to name one) buddha Became enlightened and went to nirvana.
BaneOfAzrael 1 month ago
@TheCynicalPhoenix Conclusion,
Your either lying through your teeth. or you really haven’t studied any other belief systems and pretend that you have, thereby making rather huge mistakes via ignorance.
BaneOfAzrael 1 month ago
@BaneOfAzrael Enlightenment and Nirvana versus 3 days dead in the grave, risen again, and ascension to Heaven are simply non-comparable. We can debate proof of Christ's resurrection, but we could also just as easily debate proof of Buddha and Nirvana.
Expressing my faith does not mean that I am lying through my teeth. I'm free to express my beliefs, just as you are yours. But I don't degrade and insult others in the process. Trading insults is no way to have a reasonable discussion.
TheCynicalPhoenix 1 month ago
@TheCynicalPhoenix "We can debate proof of Christ's resurrection, but we could also just as easily debate proof of Buddha and Nirvana.” --> exactly! both claims are extraordinary, and both are unproven. You seemed to be saying that the claim of resurrection made christianity special, the reality is every religion has claims like it or of similar nature.
if you read my post, I was simply providing an example to combat your claim of christianity being better than the rest.
BaneOfAzrael 1 month ago
@TheCynicalPhoenix "Expressing my faith does not mean that I am lying through my teeth. I'm free to express my beliefs” --> I know it doesn’t. Providing false information about other belief systems and misrepresenting them to try and validate your own is what I was talking about. I also mentioned that was one option. The other was that you are ignorant/uneducated on these other belief systems
BaneOfAzrael 1 month ago
@TheCynicalPhoenix "But I don't degrade and insult others in the process. Trading insults is no way to have a reasonable discussion.” --> calling you out on providing false information is not an insult.
BaneOfAzrael 1 month ago
@TheCynicalPhoenix As to the last part of your reply: Doesn't that seem a little backwards? You have to have a belief to understand the evidence which will make you believe?
Why would God EVER make a book like that?
Here's the right approach: Man doesn't believe in a God. Along comes God, makes a book with such compelling evidence, people believes it. The other way seems like an excuse.
If you aren't allready a believer when opening the book, you will believe even less when closing it.
HKragh 1 month ago
@HKragh It could be backwards or forwards, really. If you believe the Bible is God's Word, you will approach it and treat it as such. If you don't believe but read it with the intent of deciding on it's validity, you will come to a clear conclusion by the end.
Being a believer is not a prerequisite to reading it or believing it. C.S. Lewis and Lee Strobel are 2 perfect examples of this. They were devote atheists reading the Bible to disprove it, and ended up converting to Christianity.
TheCynicalPhoenix 1 month ago
@TheCynicalPhoenix I just think an allknowing being would be capable at producing a better product than the Bible. After all he knew exactly how it would be received. If I wanted people to be saved from eternal torture, I would do my best. God wrote a book through mankind, and in a very simplistic part of the world, where most couldn't even read. And then he thought to himself: Job well done! No way. It just seems too simplistic to me. I expect better from a being capable of creating universes.
HKragh 1 month ago
@HKragh You are making a typical error that many atheist fall into, wich is talking about bible inerrancy. You say the stories are just too much, but is that a real argument against the Bible being true or even the existance of God? Obviously not. Emotional reactions are not arguments at all. You need to provide historical evidence in order to disprove the case, and let me say, it'll be hard for you to find any I see evidence supporting christianity, none supporting atheism.
signofthehammer 1 month ago
@signofthehammer The simplistic nature of the Bible doesn't disproves God.. It is exactly as complicated as the times in which it were written. It has exactly the amount of knowledge within, as the people possesed in those times. I expect more of a book which is said to be written by the being who created this complicated place we call the universe. So it's not a proof. It's an indication. I don't need to disprove, you need to prove. I just can't believe this story before I see some evidence.
HKragh 1 month ago
@HKragh You're committing a philosophical falacy by saying: "Because the Bible doesn't meet my expectations, it must be false". Also there is evidence, plenty un fact. If you're talking about the existance of God, there are several arguments like the cosmological, the contingency, the moral, the design or the ontological arguments. If you're talking about Jesus resurrection, there are undeniable facts proven by the majority of scholars wich you would have to disprove and make a case of your own.
signofthehammer 1 month ago 4
@signofthehammer No... there aren't undeniable facts proven by the majority of scholars. If there were, this wouldn't be a matter of faith, would it? Who told you this? Your pastor?
All there is are stories. There is nothing beyond that. And stories would NEVER be enough to prove anything. And yes, if you read a piece of work from the creator of this place, and can't find one single thing in it, which wasn't known to mankind at the time, you take the conclusion it is probably written by man.
HKragh 1 month ago
@HKragh Well I didn't say the facts, so I don't know why you say there aren't proven. Anyway, here they are: 1)Jesus' empty tomb. 2) Jesus appearances alive after his death, and 3)the origin of the disciples belief in His resurrection. Those are 3 facts recognized by the inmense majority of scholars. The best explanation for these facts is God raised Jesus from the dead. If you want to present other hypothesis, be sure they haven't been dismissed already as imposible or innaccurate.
signofthehammer 1 month ago
@signofthehammer
1) Jesus empty tomb. A story in the Bible.
2) Jesus appearance alive after his death. A story in the Bible.
3) The origin of the disciples belief in His resurrection. A story in the Bible.
Ok, so now I need some facts which aren't stories in an old book. Because authors of books can write all sorts of stuff. I'm sure you would agree rising from the grave is a serious issue, which we need some serious evidence for. Some external evidence from the book describing the event.
HKragh 1 month ago
@HKragh MY HEART EXPERIENCE IS ENOUGH OR READ THAT NEW BOOK HEAVEN IS REAL BY THAT KID...DESCRIBES HOW HE MET HIS SISTER..HE WASN't even told about a miscarriage by his parents & said her name..EXPLAIN THAT WITH SCIENCE OR PEOPLE HEALED RIGHT NOW!!
SoCaLhauser 1 month ago
@HKragh Also, the "all there is are stories" argument is invalid, because there're not just stories, but historical testimonies that come as evidence for historical facts. How do you think we know about Napoleon or Alejandro Magno. Why don't you say all those are stories? The difference is that there are supernatural things happening in Jesus' case, and, as dificult as it is to take it serious, it may well be the case that it happened. Remember emotions don't count as evidence.
signofthehammer 1 month ago
@signofthehammer We know about those people through many different authors, and through actual leftovers from their reign. So, evidence besides the historical documents describing them. Even if we didn't have other than stories, we trust those because they are about regular people, doing something, within physical reality, which changed the world. As soon as magic, living dead, miracles and whatnot is invoked, the level of evidence needed to varify, rises drastically.
HKragh 1 month ago
@signofthehammer The level of evidence needed, is directly proportional with the seriousness of the claim.
So if you claim you ate chicken yesterday, I need very little evidence.
If you claim you can fly, I need more...
For instance in the "I can fly" example, I would need more than a stories describing your ability. I would demand more than eyewitnesses. It would be so extraordinary, I would need some serious testing in a laboratory.
So it's a matter of the seriousness of the claim.
HKragh 1 month ago
@HKragh You're wrong, there are other testimonies outside the bible about Jesus. Also dismissing the Bible as a historical source is laughable at best, no history nor new testament scholar would take you serious. You're also wrong about other historical personalities, as Jesus is the historical person from who we have more data. Again, saying it seems imposible for you is not an argument, because it could still well be the case that all that happened. You're left with agnosticism at best.
signofthehammer 1 month ago
@HKragh "The level of evidence needed, is directly proportional with the seriousness of the claim." That's why Jesus is the historical person with more data compiled than any other. I see nothing wrong in the claim Jesus was resurrected from the dead by God, because God could do that. the fact that NOBODY at that time remotely believed in physical resurrection and yet they all present testimony about Jesus resurrecting is something to be looked at.
signofthehammer 1 month ago
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@signofthehammer "the fact that NOBODY at that time remotely believed in physical resurrection"
The Pharisees believed it, see Acts 23:6.
StormTrek 1 month ago
@HKragh NO MORE THAN ONE EYEWITNESS PROBABILITY OF ALL OF THEM LYING IS MINISCULE UNLESS THEY KNEW EACH OTHER in YOUR CHICKEN EXAMPLE, WHO CARES ABOUT IT JUS SAY YES TO JESUS YOUR LIFE WILL BE BETTER AND EMBRACE FORGIVENESS...TELLING YOU..I WAS SLEEPING OUTSIDE IN PARK AND BUSHES..JUS DELIVERED FROM JAIL, HOMOSEXUALITY..AMAZING GOD IS POWERFUL AND GOOD..JUS SAY YES TO HIM!!
SoCaLhauser 1 month ago
@SoCaLhauser I don't know what to say to you, we communicate and experience the world on different levels. And writing in upper case letters won't help your message, I asure you.
HKragh 1 month ago
Who's Darwin?
Exactly.
HappyRoadCone 1 month ago
Darwin Killed your Bible!
Pablo113 1 month ago
@Pablo113 Darwin died! Jesus died...and rose again. I am not worshiping something that is dead. You are.
sportoracle 1 month ago 2
@Pablo113 You're ignorant and shouldn't talk!
JustAMatch 1 month ago
@Pablo113 Darwin doesn't exist! He is a figment of your imagination.
JLSpencer1611 1 month ago