Nature vs Nurture, Revisited: Can Persistence Be Taught?

[happinesson]

yes, i agree with you sir..

[LanceWinslow5]

Sounds perfectly legitimate to me.

[The3nlightened0ne]

The assertion that nature is the main factor in intellectual capacity is pseudo-psychology, not scientific psychology.

[Lima547]

Thanks for science breaking silly social dogmas and taboos!

[rh001YT]

a simple game played on children proves very little. every child who perseveres will still run up against their genetic boundary of cognitive faculty, at which point they notice the mental exhaustion and pain, and will also notice that other children are not as exhausted or in pain. A child with boundary limitation who continues to persevere (rare) will improve, but at greater cost, and only by so much.

[comeonman1234]

@rh001YT spot on.

[fitnesschaser01]

@rh001YT how can you test that?

[rh001YT]

@fitnesschaser01 Math & science are basicaly the test for the cognitive limit. Immanuel Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason" provides a lot of background as to what the cognitive faculty actually is. Intelligence tests based on shape & function categorization (function tests must be adapted to particular culture) also reveal cognitive abilities & limits. The game of chess is a good test. Chess champs have both naturally high cognitive ability and perseverence. See biography for Viswanathan Anand.

[fitnesschaser01]

@rh001YT if they never played chess, would they still have naturally high cognitive ability and perseverance? Do they have cognitive ability and perseverance, because they developed that ability? What about those factors?

[rh001YT]

@fitnesschaser01 Read "Critique of Pure Reason" - that will give you a lot of insights. Ability can be developed, but only to the limit that is already in place. The idea of limits is socially acceptable in sports & music. It is not socially acceptable with regards cognitive ability but that is a matter for sociology, not cogntive science. Perseverence in not "teachable" - you either have it or you don't. Adverse factors that cause struggle can enhance perseverence, but the limit applies.

[fitnesschaser01]

@rh001YT "limits" have been broken before

[rh001YT]

@fitnesschaser01 No limit has ever been broken. You are misusing the language for reasons of ....?. Records have been broken, not limits. Anyway, what a group of scientists call a "limit", such as the speed of light, is determined experimentally & has supporting math. If humans oneday find a way to make objects of significant size move faster than the speed of light that will require a work-around. I am suggesting practical thinking vs. dreaming.

[Lima547]

Magnificent and simply true! Thanks Fora Tv!

[STEPHENWRAYSFORD33]

Studies of identical twins seperated at birth do show that heredity also plays a critical factor in intelligence. Enviornment is also essential however, nobody can say for certain which is the more important as far as I can see.

[Bobbiethejean]

More of this, please. Very interesting lecture. I'm watching the whole thing now.

[rawelch69]

wow ForaTv needs to learn how to spell check.... It's "Nurture" not "Nuture" lol

[ForaTv]

@rawelch69 Ok, you got us. Fixed it.

[TigerOfKarlstad]

So that's why I'm an underachiever. hmm

[Ducky1987]

this is psych 101.

[HiAdrian]

This stuff is interesting. I consider myself quite talented, but i have considerable trouble sticking to my plans, dedicating myself. I think the asian stereotype (strict parents, crazy practice volume) supports his thesis too.

[buckfushes]

An interesting question.

I'd guess the answer would vary from person to person.

[sabotoged]

Now that we've suddenly realized this, consider the implications...

[rubberbaby00]

I find that religious people tend to think intelligence is innate or a gift from god. When I try to explain that knowledge is acquired over time through empirical observation, they get a glazed look over their eyes. "God sure made you smart."

[mexcurmudgeon]

@rubberbaby00 Knowledge is not the same thing as intelligence. And there are many different kinds of intelligence - a brilliant musician may be a horrendous speller, a brilliant mathemetician may have limited spatial awareness. Knowledge is merely data or skill sets, intelligence is the ability to absorb, process, and communicate that data.. These are just broad outlines, but I hope you see the difference.

Your using this forum to attack religion is inappropriate, as it was not the subject.

[AceofDlamonds]

@rubberbaby00

um, being knowledgeable and naturally intelligent is different.

Yes, intelligence can be genetic or just run into some family member, but simply obtaining more intelligence from observation alone is not a pretty solution. Probably just plain wrong.

Some people are able to grasp concepts better than others....and in a specific area, that highlights more intelligence, at least in that field.

[rubberbaby00]

@AceofDlamonds

When you consider all the "simple" tasks that people do, such as riding a bicycle, you realize the amount to brain processing power required to do this (pattern recognition, self awareness, motor control) is comparable to many things done considered more intelligent. It may be that even the dumbest people are born with the same intelligence as everyone else. What you call intelligence (the ability to grasp concepts) might be based on having other foundational knowledge. cont..

[rubberbaby00]

@AceofDlamonds

...cont

For example, I can't understand Calculus if I don't understand Algebra. And hence everything you call intelligence is based on acquired knowledge.

The point of my earlier comment is that religion kills intellectual curiosity. A fourth grader could understand Calculus & Evolutionary Theory if it is put in the right context. But religious people set themselves up for failure before they can begin. I speak as a former christian and former idiot.

[AceofDlamonds]

@rubberbaby00

That is necessarily true, and your idea of you being a "former" christian as support doesn't faze me. It really depends on what kind of subjects you had trouble with and blocked your worldview, for instance, I don't know your personal situation, but many other ex-Christians looked at the bible from a fundamentalist view and later, after denouncing Christ, believe that "if they believed what I did", they must be delusional nut-wads, when it could be a far different view.

[AceofDlamonds]

@AceofDlamonds

srry, i meant "not" necessarily true

[AceofDlamonds]

@rubberbaby00

But, more to the point,...intelligence is often an innate attribute we see in many people, these people are able to learn on another level, if we look at their childhood, they are referred to as geniuses and prodigies, they are able to acquire skills more easily than the rest, a true indicator of innate intelligence in some people. Now, the dumbest people in the world may not be as 'intelligent' in that area of focus or think at that level.

[jennel802009]

@rubberbaby00 Religious people are setting themselves up for what kind of failure? 

[rubberbaby00]

@jennel802009

Religious education of children is setting them up for failure in almost any kind of scientific career. Children are very trusting of adults, and if you tell them that magic & superstition are real phenomena, what does that do to their scientific curiosity? You only need to look at how Christianity retarded civilization during the Dark Ages & Islam retards science today in the middle east.

[jennel802009]

@rubberbaby00 Did it ever occur to you that religious people don't really care about a scientific career, but are more worried about going to Heaven rather than going to Hell. They teach their children about God, because they don't want their children to be doomed either. God is real and I hope that one day you will see that before you are doomed too. You may think that religious people are uneducated, but they are educated in more ways than one.

[rubberbaby00]

@jennel802009

Its not just scientific careers they are being cheated out of. Increasingly Financial markets are turning to mathmaticians & physicists. Marketing is encroaching on the cognative sciences & psychology. By not giving children a proper scientific education you are crippling them for the competative careers of the future.

How easy is it to be so sure god exists? And willing to destroy childrens futures to prove it? Would a god want you to ask questions? To think for yourself?

[jennel802009]

@rubberbaby00 Are you saying that no one can have any of these careers if they believe in God? No one is destroying their child's life by teaching them about God. It is good to teach your children math, history, science, etc., to prepare them for their future; however, what is wrong with preparing them for when it all comes to an end? I do not have children, but I have nieces, and when they have to face this world one day, I just want to assure them that they are never alone.

[rubberbaby00]

@jennel802009

No, what I am saying is that supersticious beliefs undermine a scientific education. You don't make it impossible to suceed, you just make it harder for them. They would have to learn to ignore you or compartmentalize what you teach them. You're not preparing them for the end because you don't know what happens in the end. No one does, including the con-artists who claim to know and the sheep who follow them.

[jennel802009]

@rubberbaby00 Christians know what is going to happen in the end and that is why we are getting our children prepared for it. It would be sad to see someone go to hell for not teaching their child about Christ. It would also be sad to see our children go to hell because they won't accept Him because they let science get in their way of believing. Those aren't supersticious beliefs, even God speaks against superstition and black magic in the Bible.

[rubberbaby00]

@jennel802009

Nothing happens when you die. Its a Myth.

[jennel802009]

@rubberbaby00 You can go on believing that. That will be between you and God. I just want to tell you the Jesus does love you so that way I have done my part as a Christian. I hope one day that you will find Him and be at peace before your world or this world comes (which ever comes first) to an end. I love knowing that there is something better beyond this world. I don't know why others don't want to believe it. I gives you a great sense of hope.

[jennel802009]

@rubberbaby00 The best thing about believing is knowing that you have nothing to really worry about. You could care less what people think of you, you are not afraid to die (just more afraid of how and what you will leave behind). Just knowing that someone is there when you need Him. That is the beauty of believing in God and that is enough for me.

[rubberbaby00]

@jennel802009

I'm sure people who would skydive without a parachute would say the same thing.

Believe whatever you want, but I'm more concerned with children you might influence who haven't yet, "drank [your] kool-aide".

[jennel802009]

@rubberbaby00 I'm sure they would. Anyways, my nieces are just fine. They know there's a God. I am more concerned with what kind of influence the world will have on them as they grow up. As long as I tell them about faith and God then I believe they will be alright. Anyways, I think people who don't believe in God are the ones who are "drinking the kool-aide".

[rh001YT]

@rubberbaby00 Your anti-theism is off the hook - you are crazed, everyone can see that - and as a result you make crazy statements. Huge numbers of religious people are competent scienctists & engineers. Almost all Indians are religious & the Hindus also superstitious, yet that does not hold them back from advancing to all levels of science, math and engineering. It is easy to observe and report the truth of the matter, so why misreport it? And there are many atheists who do quite little.

[rubberbaby00]

@rh001YT

Ignoring everything else would you rather go to a doctor that offers medicine or prayers?

Yes, religious people have jobs in science and engineering, and sometimes the retarded kids work at the grocery store. That doesn't mean they aren't mentally handicapped.

Supersticious belief is a serious cognative handicap, I don't know where you could possibly get the notion otherwise.

[rh001YT]

@rubberbaby00 You can't assert your bias without playing language games. Where in the Christian or Hindu world does a "doctor" offer prayers instead of following his/her medical training, often calling for second opinions? Try to avoid outrageous & nonsense analogies. There are many atheists who are not retarded & yet are absolutely pathetic, boring, and often drug addicted. Superstitious belief in India does not present a handicap to the well educated - you can become a multi-millionare.

[rubberbaby00]

@rh001YT

You seem to be arguing that insofar that supersticious people do not act on their supersticions, they can be productive human beings. If you think prayer is equally as effective as scientifically tested medicine, then why shouldn't supersticious doctors prescribe them? If you think prayer is inferior to medicine, then you must recognize the existence of an inferior belief. Inferior beliefs are a detriment to the believer, are they not?

[rh001YT]

@rubberbaby00 My friend, you have issues - most people can see it. Again, the invalid analogy: almost 0 percent of religious people don't go to a doctor if they can. Hindus in India consult an astrologist to choose an auspicious day to open a new biz or marry off their daughter. They do act on their superstitions & it has no negative impact. Power is everything, not one's religious position. I can tell you are more or less nothing like I. I would rather be Hindu cricket god Sachin Tendulkar.

[stanzemeezy]

@rubberbaby00 the teaching of the wise is a fountain of life, to turn aside from the snares of death. good understanding produces favor, but the way of the treacherous is hard.

would you say this is true or false?

just because people have faith in something does not make them dumb...obviously knowledge is something that is aquired over a period of time but, God provides us with the patience and understanding to go through the events that make us intelligent.

[rubberbaby00]

@stanzemeezy

I disagree, I think you're dumb.

[stanzemeezy]

@rubberbaby00 do u dissagree because you do not understand my comment?

or is it because you lack the capacity to comprehend a higher power and the only way you know how to respond to your unsure mind is by insulting others?

[rubberbaby00]

@stanzemeezy

I think I comprehend your comment completely. But, a non-existent being cannot provide us with "patience and understanding" that's just dumb.

[stanzemeezy]

@rubberbaby00 and you know for a fact God is nonexistant?

i would like to see this evidence of yours that is backing such a strong beliefe...

[rubberbaby00]

@stanzemeezy

Could you please be a little more specific?

Do you want evidence that carpenters don't rise from the dead? Or evidence that spit can't cure blindness? Evidence that women do not come from men's ribs or evidence that a flood cannot cover the entire Earth?Evidence that the world wasn't created in 7 days or evidence that virgins can't conceive?I would just like to know which of the thousands of volumes of acquired evidence you appear to be lacking?Please be kind enough to tell me.

[stanzemeezy]

@rubberbaby00 first of all, you are not stupid, but have you ever aproached these ideas from more than your perspective? yes, i do want evidence that a man cant rise from the dead, he was not just a man, well he was, but he was also God, and the Holy Spirit, this union is called The Trinity. When it comes to creation, how do you know what God's reference of time was? the sun was not created until the fourth "day" so how were the first 3 days measured, for all we know it was millions of years.

[rubberbaby00]

@stanzemeezy

You want proof that people don't rise from the dead? And this makes sense to you?

If I demanded proof that a dog can't rise from the dead, I would rightly be accused of not having any sense.

Thank you for demonstrating that your religion robs you of any sense.

Why make excuses for your bible? If the book says "days" why assume it meant "years" or "millions of years"? That just makes your god a liar or a poor communicator.

I stand by my statement, "you're just dumb".

[NeuronTree]

@rubberbaby00 Intelligence is not the same as knowledge.

[rubberbaby00]

@NeuronTree

I think knowledge plays a bigger role in intelligence than we realize.Do I.Q. Tests test your Intelligence or your Knowledge.Then why do people get better the more often they practice taking the test?

[NeuronTree]

@rubberbaby00 Extensive knowledge is very often a sign of a well functioning brain ... however, I personally believe that I.Q. tests are too easily effected by circumstances like the one you mention (almost anyone can become good at something if they study hard enough).

[NeuronTree]

@NeuronTree For the average person, improvement comes at a slower pace. We don't learn from our mistakes as quickly, and we have more trouble applying our knowledge and using our imagination to project it outward into reality --- so that we can navigate through the challenges that we encounter.

[rubberbaby00]

@NeuronTree

How do you know that the reason some people learn at a slower pace isn't because they haven't had the proper foundational knowledge?You can't teach calculus to someone who hasn't understood algebra.I'm seeing an increasing body of evidence that somethings as simple as reading to your child can have affects later on.Maybe you don't need a huge brain to be smart, maybe you just need all the fundamental knowledge at the right time.

[rubberbaby00]

@NeuronTree

Also, from a different perspective, some of the things that most people do, like driving a car or riding a bicycle, are enormously more complicated tasks looking at raw computational power.Why can a village idiot ride a unicycle but not solve a quadradic equation.I think it has more to do with contexual knowledge than anything we call "intelligence".

[NeuronTree]

@rubberbaby00 You're on to something here, and I'll add that the process of learning to ride a bike is exciting and engaging enough to keep most people motivated.

Our individual levels and sensitivities to dopamine might be a factor as well. Some peoples curiosity and focus come more easily.

[Watchdawg]

@rubberbaby00 "Contextual knowledge" I like that.

[rubberbaby00]

@NeuronTree

Sorry to bug you. Last comment.

The point of my comment above was to say that religion is a real barrier to knowledge aquisition.Speaking for myself, people really didn't call me smart until I became an atheist.Because, when I was christian I used to pray that I would do well on a test in school.Now, I read the book.Religious people think knowledge (intelligence) is bestowed upon them from above.Rational people know those things are acquired through study & perserverance.

[rh001YT]

@rubberbaby00 A huge number of religious people advance quite far in sci&tech, economics, etc. The PM of India is Hindu, has a phd in economics, and is well liked there. Religious people apply themsevles to study according to their dispostions, not their beliefs, so some will, some won't. Some will be tennis champs. Religious people don't think knowledge comes from above, only that wisdom comes from above. It is not hard to accurately characterize religious people, so why mis-characterize?

[walkerda5nine]

We are products of NUTURE, If I was raised by Amazonian head hunters id be a head hunter, would I be evil, a bad person for colleting peoples heads? No! id be completely adapted to where im coming from. Its not all down to nurture, but our minds are shaped by our environment.

[PSK11489]

@walkerda5nine

And if you were a NYC headhunter, would you be evil? Maybe, maybe not, but your job likely plays no part in that (but that's a different kind of headhunter :P)

Sorry, I just think it's really funny that headhunter has those two meanings.

[truvelocity]

@walkerda5nine Being a head hunter is too, nurture. You get nourished form eating the body of the person you killed and bond with your tribe, you get to shrink the head with your family around you in social events and a pat on the back, and you get to dance, sing, and promote unification with your tribe. Yes, its nurture.

[stanzemeezy]

@walkerda5nine wouldnt that be nurture? because you would have been influenced by your environment and not by your own mind?

[CammieSpectrum]

what about Teleological Explanations???

[ruzan10]

first

[diomedes39]

@ruzan10 Also least mature.