Well I think you have the purported benevolent being in your little equation, but you neglect to toss in the malevolent being, which rounds that square. There has been millenia of theologians making shit up to cover that. Satan threw the baby, god caught the baby. There you go. The truth is of course that humans are poor natural rationalists, and like to attribute favorable unlikely events to something, and unfavorable unlikely events to other things. Hurray for unreason.
I dismiss the "Satan" part of that, because an all powerful god wouldn't have allowed that to happen...unless he wanted it to...and in that case, he's still guilty of it.
Well then isn't that just constructing a straw-man? Surely you dismiss the god part too, but you still have to address it when you want to argue againt it. I also think you mean an all-loving god, there is no reason why an all-powerful god wouldn't allow it. The whole idea of a perfect being having wants and desires to begin with is absurd, but it would still be a straw-man to argue against a conception I greated, and not the one theists believe. It doesn't matter that it's absurd.
no I meant all-powerful. Loving is another issue. Since he's all-powerful, anything that happens that he doesn't want, he can stop. So the blame ends back up on him. Therefore, it's no straw man because the logic for blaming Satan is flawed. It returns back to God for allowing it.
Being able to prevent something doesn't in any way imply one desires to stop it. Nor does neglecting to prevent something that you could stop imply one's wanting it to happen. There is also plain indifference. Also, allowing, and doing are not the same thing. So it is a straw-man to say that god is anymore than indirectly responsible, and ignoring their purported malevolent force. Also, you are just going from your conclusion without first explaining how you arrived at it by discounting Satan.
sure, for normal cases....but in the case of an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent god it's different.
example: If you can save someone's life and you know that you can save them and you do nothing to save them; then you are found guilty as an accessory to murder. Why would a god be any different?
The argument of evil necessarily involves omni-benevolent. The god must desire to stop the action taken.
Asking my position is a red harring. I'm not a theist, and my views on morality are irrelevent. By using your own views to construct a criticism of someone else's position, you are constructing a straw-man. Many theologians address this question. Which mostly results in them saying it's mysterious and there surely is some secret reason.
The point is that it doesn't matter that their position is untenable, and absurd, you still must appreciate it when arguing against it, and not presuppose your own conception of such things, but use theirs.
ok...let me approach this from a different angle. I find that part of the argument to be a dead end for them. If anyone (like you did here) brings it up, then I show that it is as absurd as the rest (as I did here)...I feel like it was too small and useless of a dead end to bother putting into the video (so I didn't) Now the video is made and we are wasting time talking about what I could have added. I appreciate your input, but I really don't see the point in continuing here.
I don't. I'm an atheist (A quick look at my channel would demonstrate that). I don't have to hold a position to point out when it is being misrepresented. That is just being judicial.
FALSE DELIMMA, FALSE DELIMMA, FALSE DELIMMA. Over and over and over again you makes false delimmmas in your videos. Either God thinks and operates the way how humans would if a human was God or he doesn't exist. Couldn't God operate differently from us? God lets evil happen for many resons OK and thiests like me know that. That's why you can say that we say the most STUPID, STUPID, STUPID things and we still continue say some them (I admit some theists do say stupid thing which I don't)
so what about those disasters without miracles? Ya know, the ones where everyone dies, and thats that. Ya know, there wouldnt even be miracle cases if people hadnt decided to call them miracle cases in the first place. If anything were keeping us from going mad, it would be ourselves, and our knowlege of how to keep people calm and positive.not some almighty, unexplainable infinitely possible, all knowing, all everything yet all nothing god.
let's assume your god is real: God holds all of the cards, we are completely at his mercy, how could we possibly injure god? he can do whatever he wants why does he care if we refuse to murder gays on sight like he wants. . .. why did he make gays? why did he make satan, and demons? he created the universe knowing in advance exactly how it plays out, he's all-powerful so the whole process of human existence happens exactly as he intended . . . .
. . . he made sure to include child torture and rape in his majestic plan, he's all-powerful so he didn't have to, but he wanted to, he must have liked the idea.
Grow up!
We are just mold growing on a rock hurling through space, we are only beautiful to eachother. But, to each other we are profoundly beautiful, so let's treat one another with praise and offerings, don't waste your affections on phantoms!
someone told me that it was a miracle that I survived an accident that happened when I was 13....it was the fact that my bone structure was still flexible enough to take a beating and not snap...god had nothing to do with it.
For me to accept a miracle, it would have to happen to every believer of today`s god.
I survived a freak truck(18 wheeler) accident
back in the 60s. Some people told me that it was a miracle that i survived. Being a non-believer, i realised that the impact threw me out of the truck, into a snowbank which saved my life. I received minor acid burns from the load of acid i was delivering to a pulp mill.
A miracle is one of those happenings that when they happen to a christian, they state that it was a miracle or god answered their prayers. I feel sorry then for the great majority of christians whose prayers aren`t answered or that a miracle didn`t protect them. I draw the conclusion that a loving wouldn`t pick and choose who to save. Therefore i would state that this god is not real as no loving god would pick and choose.
I can just hear the long boring acceptance speech now.
"I'd just like to thank all my believers, for never giving up on me. I may not have always been on the ball (damn that fucking snake and his fucking tongue!), but I think I really came through for this baby. Granted, I may have not come through perfectly, but that's okay! I mean *giggle* NOBODY'S PERFECT, AM I RIGHT?! Ah, I crack me up."
*silence*
"Laugh or I'll smite you and send you to eternal punishment!!!"
You're correct! People seem to believe in situations that support their faith. We're all so afraid of death and bad luck that anything good is interpreted as God's (positive) interference. I completely agree with you, so any additional comments are rather pointless.
I think "miracles" are a coping method the brain uses to deal with horrific events. Dealing with our mortality is difficult at best and whenever we're confronted with that eventuality we look for a way to deny that death will visit us sooner or later. Hence the belief in life after death, gods, miracles and the like. Take a moment and examine the "fight or flight" instinct and apply it to death. Realising that death is inescapable; what are you left with? flight. But to where? Fantasy. JMHO.
I think Terry Pratchett said something like that a while back. Something about a bus crash being a miracle because the guardrail broke in a specific way.
Hmmm...bad things happening doesn't disprove anything. We live in any imperfect world, there could be no good without bad. No misfortune without fortune. You tend to take redneck idiots from the south, and quote them on here. Of course, you're going to seem intellectually superior to them.
I hate these "miracles" because people always seem to ignore all of the bad shit around them that completely contradicts the idea of this supposedly benevolent and miraculous god.
This is just like when people thank god why a doctor preforms surgery and saves the life of their loved one. How about thanking the doctor who was elbow deep in blood trying to save another person's life.
Or in the case of the baby, instead of thanking god for this miracle, thank the guy who found the kid before the child died from exposure.
see bj...your reply here just WREAKS of "Christian love". CJ brings up a valid point to thank the doctor...and instead of you AGREEING and then commenting that they "should thank both"...you sling insults. Try to clean up your act, I think you made baby Jesus cry.
As far as all you folks are concerned, I'd have to never speak another word in order to show you Christian love. There's a miracle you can pray for. Get one thing straight, meek, doesn't mean weak and I AM showing you Christian love by NOT accepting your bullshit. I already SAID that these people DO thank the doctor too, but it's convenient for you to deny this because it's NOT in print? My act is fine, thank you, I've got nothing to 'clean up'...now you on the other hand...
You lack a point other than your disdain for anyone who utters a praise of a deity within earshot of you...I guess your massive intellect is just TOO great for me...yeah, that's it.
Great video, as usual. Also many sports start (who have already won the lottery of life, even if they don't win the big game) give thanks to God for a big win, even within a year that a tsunami killed 200,000 people (yes, that's the same amount of death as a 9/11 attack once a year, every year, for 66 years). Merciful God...
There aint no devil, it's just God when he drinks! He must have had a belly full when he decided to plant Adam and Eve in a garden and then forbid them to eat from the tree of knowlege? That makes sense, in a maniacal, sociopathic way. :-P
One argument I need help with that a theist told me the other day. He says that how can there be no God when good wins over evil in this world? Now I thought this was stupid at first, but I thought about it.. and it has some truth. Why do people like Hitler, Stalin, etc, always fail in power and the world turns more free and good again? I don't know how to argue why the world isn't enslaved if there is no God. Any help? Good video btw, miracles are not very real.. I don't think atleast.
Its because people really dont want to be enslaved. It is the people that overcame hitler and stalin, not god. The people return the world to a better state, not god.
No one wants to be a slave or live in poverty, so they fight out of it if forced upon them.
Of course the blacks didnt fight out of slavery, but thats because they have no will.
i've actually heard of babies being thrown by tornades before and surviving... it's no miracle. babies can survive stuff like that sometimes. i don't exactly remember how but i remember learning this in an anatomy class.
That is true to an extent. Hitler used eugenics, a psuedo-science off-shoot darwinism, to justify the holocaust. However, that does not mean that Hitler was right, and it definitely doesn't mean that Darwin was wrong.
I have always thought of the way believers synthesize the cruelty of god, and the irony of pointing out a 'miracle' in a disaster where 100 people die or something of the sort...
Nice video, I've thought of the same things before too. One of my teachers was talking about how it's a miracle that a baby's home destroyed, parents killed, the baby was left (supposedly) face down in the mud for a whole night and lived. Yeah. Seems like God sure does love his people.
My cousin's parents are still believers. If they ever saw my atheist videos, I suppose they would cut me off. I can't talk about my unbelief with any but my siblings. That's why I'm so grateful the YouTube and its atheist community are here. It's isolating to be unable to be open and real with relatives. But I'm sure many here experience the same thing.
(part 2) My cousin lived, all right, but she never developed normally. In the last couple of years, her heart began to enlarge. She was small and frail, but her heart grew like that of an athlete. There was no saving her. She died at sixteen, never experiencing puberty. She was still a little girl. Her life was cut off when it should have been just beginning. Was God responsible for that. too? Was it a test for her parents? It was just another event that convinced me that God didn't exist.
A cousin of mine was born prematurely, weighing less than five pounds and having all her vital organs in a sac outside her body. She was operated on at birth, the organs we inserted into the body cavity, she was sewn up, and she survived. She was called a miracle baby. God had saved her! Nobody thought to ask why God had let that happen to her in the first place. Nobody thought to praise the skill of the surgeons who made it possible for her to leave the hospital with her parents. (continued)
Oh I should point out that although I think this video is great, my "Ramen" post was to El Stalky. Maybe its just me, but sometimes my replies dont show up where they should. I didn't have time to go and make a comment on the video itself. Rock on, King!
Actually, if you'll recall, many people said Katrina was God's wrath against gays or the Mardi Gras parade or something.
But 50-60 people dead from a tornado (most of the dead from Tennessee, where 81% of voters apparently hate gay marriage)? Obviously just a freak storm. Thanks for saving that one baby, God!
In my opinion that's more rational than believe that God watches over you and takes care of you like a father does to his child. It's too bad that most Christians think this way.
and that little child could help itself how? how could the mother help herself from having been flung 200ft and died? "god helps those who help themself" now if i help myself why do i need god to do that for me? if i can't help myself why doesn't god come to my aid, rockandrock44
I work in CV surgery and am still waiting to see my first miracle. I see people living as a result of science. God could perform a miracle and put us out of business by correcting bad genetics.
I agree with you pmarie, I work in disease management(diabetes, hypertension, cancer, etc). My miracle test for God would be "to instantly cure ALL people with Chronic Conditions without the use of doctors, medicine or treatment or instantly regenerate the lost limbs of amputees. I'm sadden by the number of people who refuse to take their meds or treatment and pray to "god" to heal them. He NEVER answers.
I can only imagine what youve seen and heard in your field.
it's also a miracle that the bullshit written in a 2000 year old book is still around today held as holy truth by a big portion of the world population.
I'm a healthcare worker and took care of a bloodied and bruised patient from a car wreck. Through it all this guy was trying to preach to me and sell me on Jesus. He stated how much of a miracle of God it was he survied this car wreck. I couldn't resist and asked him why Jesus didn't prevent the accident in the first place. This kind of thinking just bugs the shit out of me.
I read about that baby and had the same thought about it vis-a-vis the mother. But, people have to make sense of life given their various paradigms. Some people actually take comfort and solace in the idea that God protected them. They believe that. And if that gives them comfort and a sense of understanding...then let it be. We all have to make sense of life the best we can, and how we can.
I'll save me response for whenever we FINALLY get back in stickam together. There are some big problems with "let it be" in this case. There are also solutions without "god" that are equally comforting and NOT delusional.
I do look forward to our Stickam chat. I really enjoyed the last one. I just am of the mindset that if someone finds peace and comfort in their beliefs (even if it is atheism)...let it be. Really though, no one knows who is really right or wrong. I look forward to it my friend.
Ok i'm going to going to be cruel and say this ( I know you dont mean it that way) but
"I just am of the mindset that if someone finds peace and comfort in their beliefs (even if it is atheism)...let it be."
Means that you think that someone who belive "I will go to heaven and have a party when i blow myself and several other people up" and find it comforting... that you should let it be.
Point being really that unrational belief have a real tendency to effect more people then the believer.
So if I found peace and comfort in torturing kittens...we should let it be? I think you agree there is a limitation to this philosophy. If people accept this "miracle" diagnosis of medical situations, then there is no need to actually study it as a medical breakthrough...GOD DID IT! Perhaps if we actually investigated these "miracles", we could replicate them for more people...then you can have comfort and peace in our advancements.
Hmmm, belief in miracles....torturing kittens.....yeah, I see the logic in THAT analogy....that means we should never do anything for ourselves, let God do it cuz he'll provide miracles.
"I just am of the mindset that if someone finds peace and comfort in their beliefs (even if it is atheism)...let it be."
And if I believe I'll awake in heaven surrouned by virgins if I crash this airliner into this building? Or if god tells me to invade Iraq (always been curious about that, if god is omnipotent, then surely he knew Saddam didn't have any WMD, so either God is a lying, war mongering muslim hater - or GW Bush is dangerously delusional?) Many aspect of belief are far from benign
What are you talking about? Please note the context of the video and my comments. Thanks (Note, I did a reply vid to this. It should be attached here when KH approves it).
for the most part the term miracle is a way of being thankful that you are not someone else,and rationalizing it.perhaps they hope that if god has not chosen to take them at this time,he may be unlikely to take them tomorrow.if god has a plan,and you are part of the plan,then you may delude yourself into a false sense of safety.pure dumb luck has no such false comfort to offer.
I dislike "miracle" claims. A friend once said it was a miracle their friend survived a car crash. Yeah, sure . . . nothing to do with the designers of the car making the car safe or the paramedics and doctors that got her friend to the hospital, or even her friends own will to survive, never giving up. None of them deserve thanks, it was GOD. Such claims are ungrateful to those who deserve credit and also take no responsibility for one's own part in their survival.
Consider the old gods, like in greek mythology. They weren't all powerful, and a negative event meant you'd displeased one or some of the gods. A freak survival could be explained as one god causing the storm, and another god saving the baby. This makes more sense (or less nonsense), but when they started worshipping a single god, it made no sense. Numerous gods with finite power meant that they weren't in total control and could resist each others will. By pleasing one god, you have a chance.
But when you try to say there's only one god, and that he's all good, it became impossible to accept the events in reality at face value. It's like the idea of gaining the favour of the gods was inherited by the later monotheistic religions, and yet this makes no sense when appealing to an all powerful, infinite, all knowing, unchangable god. If the gods were merely extremely powerful beings not in control of everything, then at least it doesn't glaringly contradict all experience.
I had the same thoughts last year when that plane skidded off the runway in Canada and burst into flames after everyone evacuated. There no fatalities, and practically every news source proclaimed a miracle. Not one mentioned what actually saved people, the good engineering of the plane, and the well trained crew of the plane who got everyone off in time.
The whole "miracle" thing is a frustrating, insulting load of shit.
Two little girls of about eight years old were murdered right down the street from me. They were talking to one of the people from around the neighborhood on the news. She was going on about how it was an "answered prayer" that the man who committed the murders (the father of one of the girls) was found so shortly after the incident.
I agree that the word miracle is used way too often. However that being said, if God does have a purpose for everyone, perhaps there is a reason that God intervened to save the baby without intervening to save the mother, perhaps these circumstances will set it up for something else later. I also would agree about the positive negative thing that most people never associate a death with miracles, but I think this is just because people don't want to appear rude.
The problem with that question KH, is that we have no common frame of reference. To you God is a fairy tail so any answer I could give based on theology is meaningless. If you consider God to be a force like nature meaning that he is something totally non human, you may as well ask why did it rain today, or why is gravity always attractive?
I never really know if christians think that god has a hand in everything that happens or if he just lets things roll, because both contradict a lot of other things in their religion. I assume they think he directly fucks around with shit, if that was true, than he did cause those hurricanes and they did kill a lot of people, and a baby lived. He did it all, he killed all those people, and he let the baby live, with a ruined life of course.
Obviously Raiders1393, you do not understand science, we know HOW it rains and HOW gravity works but science does not address WHY. Why is a question of purpose, not of technicality. We know that gravity is always attractive, but there is not a valid reason for why without some kind of supernatural intelligence which science does not deal with. As for your whole God F**Ks around with S**T comment, if you want to have an intelligent debate, be intelligent.
If you do not believe in God, specifically the Christian God since that seams to be what you are implying about in your comments, then theology is meaningless to you so even though I may be able to at least begin to understand the why, to you it is pointless so I would ask why do you ask? Anything I could possibly say would be based on theology and therefore meaningless to someone like you.
it rained because water cooled in the atmosphere and condensed into a cloud and...well, you get the idea. The problem with your response is that you've shifted from a statement confirming a theistic god to one of a deistic god. Deistic "force" god's don't care about intervening. So again, why didn't this god intervene earlier? You can't give a sufficient answer because there isn't one. But THANK YOU for agreeing that "miracles" are overstated.
"God intervened to save the baby without intervening to save the mother"
This talk of "intervening" makes it sound like your god is not an all-powerful influence on things. Otherwise it sounds like he's intervening with himself. "A man threw a ball and abruptly batted the ball from the air before it went anywhere. He intervened with the ball" Don't you believe your god threw the baby in the first place? "Intervene" sounds like he initially had 0 control of the weather systems and battled them
While you raise an interesting point technologysucks, it still boils down to a theological question for which we have no common point of reference. If you play the 'Sims' and you build a sim who dies in a fire, did you cause the fire? In some ways I think that this is similar, God may have created you, and the world in which you live, but that does not mean that he caused every event in your life to happen.
But doesn't saying he didn't cause the tornado contradict the Christian assertion that he is all powerful? And all-knowing? Therefore wouldn't nothing happen that god didn't want to happen because otherwise he could step in before the fact and prevent it? Wouldn't that mean for some reason god wanted the baby thrown a few hundred feet?
I'm don't know what the 'Sims' are (I'm assuming a computer or video game) but I'm guessing you're not all powerful (You can't control fire, etc.)
If a scientist is observing a virus on a slide under a microscope, he could intervene in many ways to affect the growth of the virus and many other factors however he chooses not to. Perhaps he chooses one specific cell to observe and it comes under attack from another cell, the scientist moves the endangered cell so he can continue to observe it. The cells do not know why he did this, or why he does not spare all the cells even though he can see all the cells and could save them if he chose.
Yes, but this hypothetical scientist isn't all-knowing (nor does he care about the other cells). An all-knowing scientist would've predicted the imminent attack beforehand and prevented it. Either that, or stopped the virus from attacking that one cell while all the others get attacked which, if he were all-powerful, the scientist could do.
By your analogy, your god didn't want the baby thrown, so why couldn't an omniscient god predict it and an omnipotent god prevent it beforehand?
You fail to see the beauty of the analogy I used, to the virus the scientist is all knowing. The scientist (assuming he is not some green student) already knows what will happen when he exposes a virus to the environment he sets up. Then he observes to confirm this. One thing about God that many theists and non-theists alike fail to understand is that the Bible is written from Man's point of view, not God's. We know only what God wanted us to know. There are indications in the Bible...
That while God is certainly extremely powerful, he may not be completely without limit. There are times when God changes his mind about things, there are times that God is surprised, if God were totally without limit as far as knowledge of past present and future this should not be possible. Keep in mind that the idea that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent is not in the Bible, only in Church doctrine. You will find indications that God certainly not limited...
To the virus, the scientist is just a force in its environment beyond its control or understanding, like the movement of our galaxy through the cosmos is to us. But that's beside the point.
Are you admitting that god is not omniscient, omnipotent, or omnipresent and that nature outside his control, sometimes things he didn't want to happen?
If so, that's pretty much what I've been trying to say.
By the way, how do you know god feels surprise? (just wondering)
Matt. 8:10, "...When Jesus heard this, he was astonished..."
This is but one example of God (in this case in the form of Christ) surprised by something. I am not saying exactly what the abilities if God are, however I think that if he chose to, he could do anything we could imagine within this universe. From the perspective of our universe God is all-powerful, however that does not mean that in his 'home' realm he does not have limits.
Like the cell on a slide, from the perspective of a human the scientist is just another guy, but from the perspective of the cell he is the all-powerful creator of the universe that the cell is in (the slide) does that make sense?
It doesn't fucking matter what the virus "thinks" of the scientist. He's not really all knowing.
With the claim of god, it is that he unequivocally IS. Unless he's all knowing but not clairvoyant. But if that's the case, you must reject the book of Revelations, or any kind of prophecy.
If things can be prophecized, then god must know the future by requisition. So, if he knows the future, then he would be aware that there would be a tornado...he would probably be the instigator, too.
While I do not appreciate your language, I understand your point. You are assuming of course that everything in prophecy is something that God looked into the future and determined will indeed happen, however what if prophecy is nothing more than God expressing his plan for what will happen? This could explain both sides of the miracle question put forth by KH.
For example: God wants a Church to succeed, he decides to choose Joe to lead it, but then a tornado hits, so he saves Joe... on the flip side God knows based on his unlimited knowledge of the currant universe that Joe's mom would most likely oppose Joe joining the Church, so he does not bother to save Joe's mom, or even causes her to die so his 'plan' will move forward. I am attempting to explain things in a non-theological manor so please do not flame me for not speaking in 'Church lingo'
While God killing one person and saving another for what appears to be arbitrary reasons may seam cruel and wrong from our perspective, we do not think twice about doing the same thing to simple life to achieve our own plans. Like killing lab animals in order to develop a vaccine for a killer illness that will save countless other animals. If God is at least as far ahead of us as we are to a simple cell, then we have no way to truly understand his methods or reason.
Perhaps because it seams that he created a universe with certain regularities and rules of operation, and he only intervenes when necessary to complete his agenda. Just as a scientist observing animal behavior might step forward to save a test subject, but not intervene to save the non-test animals.
I did not say he does not care, only that he may prioritize in that he chooses people to do certain things, and unless that is endangered he does not intervene. I am sure that almost every biologist who studies animals in the field love animals, but they watch them die every day. If you love something, that does not mean that you always protect it from harm. When parents try to 'shelter' their children until they are 18, the kids are not ready to deal with the world when they finally see it.
I want you to think about your response and then look up the school bus accident that recently happened...look up the school that was destroyed and several students killed in Alabama last year from the tornado...look up Katrina...the tsunami...etc. None of those people were important enough for god to save?
I do not claim to know who is important and who is not KH. I only suggest that for the most part God does not intervene. As we talked about earlier God does not routinely commit 'miracles' and most likely the baby you mentioned in the video was as you suggested most likely purely randomly spared. Miracles are rare by definition.
so since we can determine that he doesn't do it OFTEN...what's to say he does it EVER. Since there are so many cases where the "miracle" ends up with nothing more than a coincidental outcome...why call it a "miracle" when "coincidence" is more suitable?
I would agree that at least the vast majority of 'miracles' are coincidence; however I could not go so far as to say all. It is entirely possible and reasonable from a theist position to say that most likely there have not been any supernatural miracles since the 1st century. While some claim to various healings and life changing experiences, I would say that reasonably one could say that while their faith may have healed them...
...that does not mean that God himself directly acted. As for people whose life had changed for the better after converting, that could also be due to a better attitude and refreshed will to do something. That being said, I know that many point to verses in the Bible that talk about man doing even greater things that Christ did in the future, and I think that we have mostly through science. We have wiped out some diseases...
...we have sent men into space; we have the ability to fly, and to routinely transport ourselves at speeds that were not even imaginable 2000 years ago. It is truly amazing what man has done in the last 100 years, let alone 2000. I think that part of the reason that miracles do not take place routinely is if they did, what would be the point in faith? There is nothing special about believing in something you can plainly see in front of you.
My take on these miracles that happened way back when and the fact that they are not happening now is:If they happened in the past,
the word of them was spread from person to person down the line. This took a long time to get to the major populace. By the time the good deeds got to the major populace, they had turned into miracles. Nowdays with our immediate communication system these good deeds remain just that. They media might build the deeds up to sell papers but they are still deeds.
While that seams sound... it does not really explain the kind of miracles described in the Bible... If a man beet up 3 guys to save a woman in distress.. it could become a man taking on an army after many layers of re-telling.. However if someone is going around healing the sick.. That is a little harder to explain. Let alone the 'acts of God' like the 10 plagues, or mana, or fire from the sky type stuff..
On the lighter side... perhaps Jonah was just like Captain Jack Sparrow.. instead of using his hair to catch dolphins to ride to safety.. he just rode in the belly of a whale... then he swaggered into the city and said "I'm Captain Jonah Sparrow... you are all going to die... cause... your bad or something, savvy?"
There was a documentary about today`s faith healers like Benny Hinn and maybe you`ve seen it. All the people entering the arena who want some health problem healed are given a questionaire to fill out about their health problem. Hinn`s staff go through these and pick out the easy health problems ie headache
backache etc. A staff member has a two way radio giving hinn info via Hinn`s ear piece to enable him to pick out the easy ones to cure.They don`t pick people who have anything serious.
As a man of faith, I have no respect for people like Hinn and others that claim miraculous healing ability in a circus type of environment. If they are truly healing people, they should allow themselves to be tested by independent scientists attending their 'roadside revivals' I truly believe that there is a special place in Hell for people that use the name of God for personal gain like this.
well the negative is just "god's Plan" (or the work of that dastardly devil), anything good must surely be the work of god. After all we know lesser good things come from greater good things, and all good comes from god as he is the most awesomely awesome being of pure good. I mean think of all that god has given us: The cosmos, the sun, the earth, freewill, and the devil.
On a more serious note, another great vid! Good to analyze those situations and put them into perspective.
Yeah, GOD did this....what a ****. Sorry that God doesn't come to your rescue like some religious Superman....It must just piss right in your Cheerios everytime anyone (rightly or wrongly) attributes ANYTHING to God. And this hurts you how?
"Yeah, GOD did this....what a ****. Sorry that God doesn't come to your rescue like some religious Superman....It must just piss right in your Cheerios everytime anyone (rightly or wrongly) attributes ANYTHING to God. And this hurts you how?"
Thats true, according to several christian evangelicals, Hurricane Katrina and 9-11 were miraculous acts of god.
So this means we ALL believe that this kind of thing is by the hand of God? Hardly. You Atheists need to get yourselves some new brushes, we're all tired of being painted with the same ones...but it does keep you having have to think about us on more than one level.
Oh, because YOU say so? Please, that's utter bullshit that allows you to avoid dealing with us an individuals, easier for your to retain your bigotry and hypocrisy. Try using your intellect to communicate rather than just label for sake of convenience and expedience.
Sorry but its not generalization. And sadly, it doesn't matter what the fuck you think in regards to it "applying" to you. A miracle, as a definition, is just interference by god, and if you accept that he exists than you have to take the good with the bad when it comes to miracles. Otherwise your just in denial, but im sure you're tired of hearing that term aswell.
It's absolutely a GENERALIZATION. Nor does it matter what the fuck you think is interference by God. You can't (either can a Christian) say if God had His 'hand' in it or not. The word has become a throwaway just like logical, rational, atheist...speaking of being in denial.
I never said ALL of ANYBODY did ANYTHING. Don't twist my words. If you agree, then be like mjcrawford and admit that people like this should rethink what they say...don't muddy the water with your straw men.
KH, people will SAY whatever they wish without your permission especially in times of stress whether or NOT they believe in GOD. Ever catch yourself saying 'swear to God?, Oh my God?, I know there are plenty of other ways you've used His name. This is no different it's JUST a term people use to describe something for which they have no other explanation. Like I said, this hurts you how? Because someone invokes a Christian concept? Because it denotes something good when YOU KNOW we're ALL evil?
broadjumper1, you failed to concede that there are people that are in the mindset that KingHeathen described. I have a feeling you'll continue shouting out your delusions of victimization, taking offense to charges which should only applicable via association of name. If the latter is a the case, then you should be taking proactive measures against the elements of your religious belief that prompts such judgements.
Of COURSE there are, just like there are Atheists with mindsets like Ted Kacsinski. Do I ASSUME all of you are as insane as he is? No, but you sure have little problem suggesting that all Christians believe God is responsible for everything that happens in the world. And AP, I don't feel victimized in the least, and you could even if you tried. I'm only here to try to keep you folks fairly honest. Oh and the day I need your advice on how to live, I'll wring it out of you.
And that means about as much as your opinion, but should I visit Australia again, fear not. I'll have far better things to do than wring anything out of you...besides, you might bore me to death..
This is definitely one of your best arguments.
gothicfog 2 years ago
Perfect !
Agen0 3 years ago
People should read about the LAW OF MURPHY.....
suskky 3 years ago
very nice vid!
urantivirus 3 years ago
Well I think you have the purported benevolent being in your little equation, but you neglect to toss in the malevolent being, which rounds that square. There has been millenia of theologians making shit up to cover that. Satan threw the baby, god caught the baby. There you go. The truth is of course that humans are poor natural rationalists, and like to attribute favorable unlikely events to something, and unfavorable unlikely events to other things. Hurray for unreason.
Darsises 3 years ago
I dismiss the "Satan" part of that, because an all powerful god wouldn't have allowed that to happen...unless he wanted it to...and in that case, he's still guilty of it.
KingHeathen 3 years ago
Well then isn't that just constructing a straw-man? Surely you dismiss the god part too, but you still have to address it when you want to argue againt it. I also think you mean an all-loving god, there is no reason why an all-powerful god wouldn't allow it. The whole idea of a perfect being having wants and desires to begin with is absurd, but it would still be a straw-man to argue against a conception I greated, and not the one theists believe. It doesn't matter that it's absurd.
Darsises 3 years ago
no I meant all-powerful. Loving is another issue. Since he's all-powerful, anything that happens that he doesn't want, he can stop. So the blame ends back up on him. Therefore, it's no straw man because the logic for blaming Satan is flawed. It returns back to God for allowing it.
All-loving is another issue though.
KingHeathen 3 years ago
Being able to prevent something doesn't in any way imply one desires to stop it. Nor does neglecting to prevent something that you could stop imply one's wanting it to happen. There is also plain indifference. Also, allowing, and doing are not the same thing. So it is a straw-man to say that god is anymore than indirectly responsible, and ignoring their purported malevolent force. Also, you are just going from your conclusion without first explaining how you arrived at it by discounting Satan.
Darsises 3 years ago
sure, for normal cases....but in the case of an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent god it's different.
example: If you can save someone's life and you know that you can save them and you do nothing to save them; then you are found guilty as an accessory to murder. Why would a god be any different?
KingHeathen 3 years ago
The argument of evil necessarily involves omni-benevolent. The god must desire to stop the action taken.
Asking my position is a red harring. I'm not a theist, and my views on morality are irrelevent. By using your own views to construct a criticism of someone else's position, you are constructing a straw-man. Many theologians address this question. Which mostly results in them saying it's mysterious and there surely is some secret reason.
Darsises 3 years ago
The point is that it doesn't matter that their position is untenable, and absurd, you still must appreciate it when arguing against it, and not presuppose your own conception of such things, but use theirs.
Darsises 3 years ago
ok...let me approach this from a different angle. I find that part of the argument to be a dead end for them. If anyone (like you did here) brings it up, then I show that it is as absurd as the rest (as I did here)...I feel like it was too small and useless of a dead end to bother putting into the video (so I didn't) Now the video is made and we are wasting time talking about what I could have added. I appreciate your input, but I really don't see the point in continuing here.
KingHeathen 3 years ago
Yeah it does. If It's absurd why beleive in it?
Herufaia 3 years ago
I don't. I'm an atheist (A quick look at my channel would demonstrate that). I don't have to hold a position to point out when it is being misrepresented. That is just being judicial.
Darsises 3 years ago
FALSE DELIMMA, FALSE DELIMMA, FALSE DELIMMA. Over and over and over again you makes false delimmmas in your videos. Either God thinks and operates the way how humans would if a human was God or he doesn't exist. Couldn't God operate differently from us? God lets evil happen for many resons OK and thiests like me know that. That's why you can say that we say the most STUPID, STUPID, STUPID things and we still continue say some them (I admit some theists do say stupid thing which I don't)
kjordon1 3 years ago
so what about those disasters without miracles? Ya know, the ones where everyone dies, and thats that. Ya know, there wouldnt even be miracle cases if people hadnt decided to call them miracle cases in the first place. If anything were keeping us from going mad, it would be ourselves, and our knowlege of how to keep people calm and positive.not some almighty, unexplainable infinitely possible, all knowing, all everything yet all nothing god.
thecommonsenseguy 3 years ago
if there are no limits on this god, then we shouldnt even be able to comprehend its existance, let alone its history in creating everything.
thecommonsenseguy 3 years ago
your a fucking retard god didn't throw the baby the fucking tornado your an idiot
pimpmoney813 3 years ago
I think miracles are gods way of evening the score.
I mean if a tornado wiped out everyone without one miracle story to give hope then people would be screaming mad.
Miracles keep things grounded and are not always good.
If an African Village receives a well then you can be sure that someone there died for it.
If a flood hits everything but an orphanage then you can be sure that the kids who were recently adopted and looking forward to a new life died.
Miracles are anchors.
ArticBreakup 3 years ago
that is the most twisted way I can think of to rationalize this...wow.
KingHeathen 3 years ago
"evening the score" !!!!!
let's assume your god is real: God holds all of the cards, we are completely at his mercy, how could we possibly injure god? he can do whatever he wants why does he care if we refuse to murder gays on sight like he wants. . .. why did he make gays? why did he make satan, and demons? he created the universe knowing in advance exactly how it plays out, he's all-powerful so the whole process of human existence happens exactly as he intended . . . .
Jomunrek 3 years ago
. . . he made sure to include child torture and rape in his majestic plan, he's all-powerful so he didn't have to, but he wanted to, he must have liked the idea.
Grow up!
We are just mold growing on a rock hurling through space, we are only beautiful to eachother. But, to each other we are profoundly beautiful, so let's treat one another with praise and offerings, don't waste your affections on phantoms!
Jomunrek 3 years ago
Great videos, thank you for sharing them with us.
Deathwail 3 years ago
someone told me that it was a miracle that I survived an accident that happened when I was 13....it was the fact that my bone structure was still flexible enough to take a beating and not snap...god had nothing to do with it.
MistressDracona 3 years ago
For me to accept a miracle, it would have to happen to every believer of today`s god.
I survived a freak truck(18 wheeler) accident
back in the 60s. Some people told me that it was a miracle that i survived. Being a non-believer, i realised that the impact threw me out of the truck, into a snowbank which saved my life. I received minor acid burns from the load of acid i was delivering to a pulp mill.
No miracle to me, just my lucky day.
maurieer 4 years ago
A miracle is one of those happenings that when they happen to a christian, they state that it was a miracle or god answered their prayers. I feel sorry then for the great majority of christians whose prayers aren`t answered or that a miracle didn`t protect them. I draw the conclusion that a loving wouldn`t pick and choose who to save. Therefore i would state that this god is not real as no loving god would pick and choose.
maurieer 4 years ago
not only that but that theres no pattern to it either
Axyss 3 years ago
Biased like a Faux [sic]! :D
lisamariefan 4 years ago
There is a simple explanation for the baby being thrown 200 yards. God has been watching South Park episode 101:
Kyle:Yeah, check this one out. Ready, Ike? Kick the baby!
Ike:Don't kick the baby.
Kyle:Kick the baby.
[he kicks Ike, and Ike mows down four mailboxes. Cartman yawns.]
See God not only exists he is Jewish and has a sense of humor.
happyjesus123 4 years ago
What would it take to convince you that a miracle did happen?, and how should one seperate a miracle from an accident?
And regarding bad things, were they highly improbable?
Eiketsu3000 4 years ago
god coming down from heaven and taking credit for it.
alienjesus2012 4 years ago
Oh boy...
I can just hear the long boring acceptance speech now.
"I'd just like to thank all my believers, for never giving up on me. I may not have always been on the ball (damn that fucking snake and his fucking tongue!), but I think I really came through for this baby. Granted, I may have not come through perfectly, but that's okay! I mean *giggle* NOBODY'S PERFECT, AM I RIGHT?! Ah, I crack me up."
*silence*
"Laugh or I'll smite you and send you to eternal punishment!!!"
lisamariefan 4 years ago
...er.
1. Try magically and instantaneously turning all weapons to [insert something nice here]. Something of that ilk.
2. And...there's plenty of possibility where misfortune seems improbable. What about gun misfires?
lisamariefan 4 years ago
yea I'd like to see some obvious magic. All this "working through people" is below him.
And a bellowing god voice would be nice. He used to talk out loud all the time 3000 years ago.
alienjesus2012 4 years ago
life is already so frickin complicated on its own. I don't need a God complicating things. Abolish god and learn modern physics.
BernierCR42 4 years ago
You're correct! People seem to believe in situations that support their faith. We're all so afraid of death and bad luck that anything good is interpreted as God's (positive) interference. I completely agree with you, so any additional comments are rather pointless.
But, thank you for making (some of) us think.
ReinerPro 4 years ago
Valid point!!!
aliasthedon2 4 years ago
Your theory on miracles is sooo true i'm afraid.
MagicHandedAlex 4 years ago
I think "miracles" are a coping method the brain uses to deal with horrific events. Dealing with our mortality is difficult at best and whenever we're confronted with that eventuality we look for a way to deny that death will visit us sooner or later. Hence the belief in life after death, gods, miracles and the like. Take a moment and examine the "fight or flight" instinct and apply it to death. Realising that death is inescapable; what are you left with? flight. But to where? Fantasy. JMHO.
dagda825 4 years ago
King your so right.
Subbed
cuffey666 4 years ago
I think Terry Pratchett said something like that a while back. Something about a bus crash being a miracle because the guardrail broke in a specific way.
pyroclasm32 4 years ago
Hmmm...bad things happening doesn't disprove anything. We live in any imperfect world, there could be no good without bad. No misfortune without fortune. You tend to take redneck idiots from the south, and quote them on here. Of course, you're going to seem intellectually superior to them.
cofree22 4 years ago
Yes. Just yes.
I hate these "miracles" because people always seem to ignore all of the bad shit around them that completely contradicts the idea of this supposedly benevolent and miraculous god.
HexDemon666 4 years ago
A little off topic, but what are you drinking KingHeathen? It kind of looks like Guinness.
BaxtersBuddy 4 years ago
oh so you do admit your not rational
in anyway right? ok that explains the
odd ranting
carry on lol
shewolf02 4 years ago
Please, quit being rational.
freedomwarrior43 4 years ago
Man your so full of hate in your
heart
you need to find what it is in you
that needs to be fixed or repaired do you need someone to help you with your issues??
shewolf02 4 years ago
This is just like when people thank god why a doctor preforms surgery and saves the life of their loved one. How about thanking the doctor who was elbow deep in blood trying to save another person's life.
Or in the case of the baby, instead of thanking god for this miracle, thank the guy who found the kid before the child died from exposure.
cjclifford 4 years ago
You're a putz cj, MOST people thank BOTH the doctor AND GOD. There's nothing wrong with thanking God for good fortune IF you're a believer.
You gals get your panties in a bunch everytime God is even mentioned anywhere or anytime...sucks to be you.
broadjumper1 4 years ago
see bj...your reply here just WREAKS of "Christian love". CJ brings up a valid point to thank the doctor...and instead of you AGREEING and then commenting that they "should thank both"...you sling insults. Try to clean up your act, I think you made baby Jesus cry.
KingHeathen 4 years ago
As far as all you folks are concerned, I'd have to never speak another word in order to show you Christian love. There's a miracle you can pray for. Get one thing straight, meek, doesn't mean weak and I AM showing you Christian love by NOT accepting your bullshit. I already SAID that these people DO thank the doctor too, but it's convenient for you to deny this because it's NOT in print? My act is fine, thank you, I've got nothing to 'clean up'...now you on the other hand...
broadjumper1 4 years ago
way to miss the point, BJ.
KingHeathen 4 years ago
You lack a point other than your disdain for anyone who utters a praise of a deity within earshot of you...I guess your massive intellect is just TOO great for me...yeah, that's it.
broadjumper1 4 years ago
Great video, as usual. Also many sports start (who have already won the lottery of life, even if they don't win the big game) give thanks to God for a big win, even within a year that a tsunami killed 200,000 people (yes, that's the same amount of death as a 9/11 attack once a year, every year, for 66 years). Merciful God...
Rationalific 4 years ago
I love this. This actualy the same way a prayer works...or superstition, atribute all successes to one cause and ignore all failures.
cypherphage 4 years ago
Good vid king, I hope the logic will make it's way to somone
vegassilenttype 4 years ago
Must be the Devil's fault then.
politicomark 4 years ago
oh it so is the devils fault :0)
anything bad we will just lay the blame with him, god knows he deservs it lol
BEX27EYH 4 years ago
There aint no devil, it's just God when he drinks! He must have had a belly full when he decided to plant Adam and Eve in a garden and then forbid them to eat from the tree of knowlege? That makes sense, in a maniacal, sociopathic way. :-P
dagda825 4 years ago
One argument I need help with that a theist told me the other day. He says that how can there be no God when good wins over evil in this world? Now I thought this was stupid at first, but I thought about it.. and it has some truth. Why do people like Hitler, Stalin, etc, always fail in power and the world turns more free and good again? I don't know how to argue why the world isn't enslaved if there is no God. Any help? Good video btw, miracles are not very real.. I don't think atleast.
ThinkIGiveAShit 4 years ago
Its because people really dont want to be enslaved. It is the people that overcame hitler and stalin, not god. The people return the world to a better state, not god.
No one wants to be a slave or live in poverty, so they fight out of it if forced upon them.
Of course the blacks didnt fight out of slavery, but thats because they have no will.
LOL Just kidding!!!
Raiders1393 4 years ago
Good response, I thank you man.
ThinkIGiveAShit 4 years ago
i've actually heard of babies being thrown by tornades before and surviving... it's no miracle. babies can survive stuff like that sometimes. i don't exactly remember how but i remember learning this in an anatomy class.
Sean2046 4 years ago
Now THATs a remark I'd like to see proven. Let's see, drop a human off a 25 story building and they go...splat!
Drop a baby? It survives? Some how I'm more than a little skeptical.
broadjumper1 4 years ago
my german teacher told the class today that hitler used darwinism to justify the holocaust
sanctionoftehvictim 4 years ago
That is true to an extent. Hitler used eugenics, a psuedo-science off-shoot darwinism, to justify the holocaust. However, that does not mean that Hitler was right, and it definitely doesn't mean that Darwin was wrong.
BaxtersBuddy 4 years ago
I have always thought of the way believers synthesize the cruelty of god, and the irony of pointing out a 'miracle' in a disaster where 100 people die or something of the sort...
matereymate 4 years ago
your amazing. and seriously your point on this is astonishing. I love it; your brilliant. :]
ilu.
johnx113 4 years ago
Nice video, I've thought of the same things before too. One of my teachers was talking about how it's a miracle that a baby's home destroyed, parents killed, the baby was left (supposedly) face down in the mud for a whole night and lived. Yeah. Seems like God sure does love his people.
Guitarplayer34 4 years ago
My cousin's parents are still believers. If they ever saw my atheist videos, I suppose they would cut me off. I can't talk about my unbelief with any but my siblings. That's why I'm so grateful the YouTube and its atheist community are here. It's isolating to be unable to be open and real with relatives. But I'm sure many here experience the same thing.
Largo64 4 years ago
"I can't talk about my unbelief with any but my siblings. That's why I'm so grateful the YouTube and its atheist community are here"
I can only speak for myself, but I'm grateful that you're here too. And Kingheathen, and the whole youtube atheist community.
These are good times to live in :)
deBeuk 4 years ago
(part 2) My cousin lived, all right, but she never developed normally. In the last couple of years, her heart began to enlarge. She was small and frail, but her heart grew like that of an athlete. There was no saving her. She died at sixteen, never experiencing puberty. She was still a little girl. Her life was cut off when it should have been just beginning. Was God responsible for that. too? Was it a test for her parents? It was just another event that convinced me that God didn't exist.
Largo64 4 years ago
A cousin of mine was born prematurely, weighing less than five pounds and having all her vital organs in a sac outside her body. She was operated on at birth, the organs we inserted into the body cavity, she was sewn up, and she survived. She was called a miracle baby. God had saved her! Nobody thought to ask why God had let that happen to her in the first place. Nobody thought to praise the skill of the surgeons who made it possible for her to leave the hospital with her parents. (continued)
Largo64 4 years ago
while I agree on what your saying about the mother- the grievers probably wouldn't take this well. Great video/ point.
Nightbane12 4 years ago
Oh I should point out that although I think this video is great, my "Ramen" post was to El Stalky. Maybe its just me, but sometimes my replies dont show up where they should. I didn't have time to go and make a comment on the video itself. Rock on, King!
mjmr89 4 years ago
Actually, if you'll recall, many people said Katrina was God's wrath against gays or the Mardi Gras parade or something.
But 50-60 people dead from a tornado (most of the dead from Tennessee, where 81% of voters apparently hate gay marriage)? Obviously just a freak storm. Thanks for saving that one baby, God!
Roostring 4 years ago
Yeah, funny how Katrina didn't do significant damage to the "gay" are of New Orleans... I guess that God just hates poor people.
sciencedoggy 4 years ago
Xtian god performs miracles when he notices that he has messed up something.
"Oops!"
pienipaha 4 years ago
I tend to believe God helps those who help themselves. :P
rockandrock44 4 years ago
In my opinion that's more rational than believe that God watches over you and takes care of you like a father does to his child. It's too bad that most Christians think this way.
Justinfh2point0 4 years ago
and that little child could help itself how? how could the mother help herself from having been flung 200ft and died? "god helps those who help themself" now if i help myself why do i need god to do that for me? if i can't help myself why doesn't god come to my aid, rockandrock44
heathenwalking 4 years ago
The moral of this story is that God hates church, and God hates babies.
Philosophobia 4 years ago
here is a question... (for the Christians)
did anyone ever say god was ''good''?
maybe he is evil? hmmm?
ComputerGeek3310 4 years ago
Oh but your majesty, God acts in mysterious ways! He created the laws of logic and reason, therefore he can bend them!
zim1017 4 years ago
I work in CV surgery and am still waiting to see my first miracle. I see people living as a result of science. God could perform a miracle and put us out of business by correcting bad genetics.
pmarie2003 4 years ago
I agree with you pmarie, I work in disease management(diabetes, hypertension, cancer, etc). My miracle test for God would be "to instantly cure ALL people with Chronic Conditions without the use of doctors, medicine or treatment or instantly regenerate the lost limbs of amputees. I'm sadden by the number of people who refuse to take their meds or treatment and pray to "god" to heal them. He NEVER answers.
I can only imagine what youve seen and heard in your field.
srch4trth 4 years ago
(Sarcasm/)
Those people who died didn't have enough Faith.
They didn't pray correctly.
They didn't pray to the right God.
God always answers prayers but sometimes God says, "No".
They were praying selfish prayers.
They regularly attend the wrong church.
They must have denied the Holy Spirit at sometime in their life and tied God's hands!
(/Sarcasm)
NiceNCool1 4 years ago
It's a miracle that people believe in miracles...
DavidRandallCurtis 4 years ago
it's also a miracle that the bullshit written in a 2000 year old book is still around today held as holy truth by a big portion of the world population.
ELStalky 4 years ago
Ra-fucking-men!!! I hereby grant you the title of, "TRUTH-SPEAKER"!!!
mjmr89 4 years ago
Thx, may the FSM bless you, RAmen.
ELStalky 4 years ago
I'm a healthcare worker and took care of a bloodied and bruised patient from a car wreck. Through it all this guy was trying to preach to me and sell me on Jesus. He stated how much of a miracle of God it was he survied this car wreck. I couldn't resist and asked him why Jesus didn't prevent the accident in the first place. This kind of thinking just bugs the shit out of me.
xrayman7040 4 years ago
I read about that baby and had the same thought about it vis-a-vis the mother. But, people have to make sense of life given their various paradigms. Some people actually take comfort and solace in the idea that God protected them. They believe that. And if that gives them comfort and a sense of understanding...then let it be. We all have to make sense of life the best we can, and how we can.
JoesRambles 4 years ago
I'll save me response for whenever we FINALLY get back in stickam together. There are some big problems with "let it be" in this case. There are also solutions without "god" that are equally comforting and NOT delusional.
KingHeathen 4 years ago
I do look forward to our Stickam chat. I really enjoyed the last one. I just am of the mindset that if someone finds peace and comfort in their beliefs (even if it is atheism)...let it be. Really though, no one knows who is really right or wrong. I look forward to it my friend.
JoesRambles 4 years ago
Ok i'm going to going to be cruel and say this ( I know you dont mean it that way) but
"I just am of the mindset that if someone finds peace and comfort in their beliefs (even if it is atheism)...let it be."
Means that you think that someone who belive "I will go to heaven and have a party when i blow myself and several other people up" and find it comforting... that you should let it be.
Point being really that unrational belief have a real tendency to effect more people then the believer.
FurieMan 4 years ago
So if I found peace and comfort in torturing kittens...we should let it be? I think you agree there is a limitation to this philosophy. If people accept this "miracle" diagnosis of medical situations, then there is no need to actually study it as a medical breakthrough...GOD DID IT! Perhaps if we actually investigated these "miracles", we could replicate them for more people...then you can have comfort and peace in our advancements.
KingHeathen 4 years ago
Hmmm, belief in miracles....torturing kittens.....yeah, I see the logic in THAT analogy....that means we should never do anything for ourselves, let God do it cuz he'll provide miracles.
broadjumper1 4 years ago
"I just am of the mindset that if someone finds peace and comfort in their beliefs (even if it is atheism)...let it be."
And if I believe I'll awake in heaven surrouned by virgins if I crash this airliner into this building? Or if god tells me to invade Iraq (always been curious about that, if god is omnipotent, then surely he knew Saddam didn't have any WMD, so either God is a lying, war mongering muslim hater - or GW Bush is dangerously delusional?) Many aspect of belief are far from benign
SAHBfan 4 years ago
What are you talking about? Please note the context of the video and my comments. Thanks (Note, I did a reply vid to this. It should be attached here when KH approves it).
JoesRambles 4 years ago
weird story, many strange things happen, its statisticly more improbable that at some point these things wont happen
Erech01 4 years ago
for the most part the term miracle is a way of being thankful that you are not someone else,and rationalizing it.perhaps they hope that if god has not chosen to take them at this time,he may be unlikely to take them tomorrow.if god has a plan,and you are part of the plan,then you may delude yourself into a false sense of safety.pure dumb luck has no such false comfort to offer.
NemoUtopian 4 years ago
Miracles are BS.
I dislike "miracle" claims. A friend once said it was a miracle their friend survived a car crash. Yeah, sure . . . nothing to do with the designers of the car making the car safe or the paramedics and doctors that got her friend to the hospital, or even her friends own will to survive, never giving up. None of them deserve thanks, it was GOD. Such claims are ungrateful to those who deserve credit and also take no responsibility for one's own part in their survival.
technologysucks 4 years ago
Consider the old gods, like in greek mythology. They weren't all powerful, and a negative event meant you'd displeased one or some of the gods. A freak survival could be explained as one god causing the storm, and another god saving the baby. This makes more sense (or less nonsense), but when they started worshipping a single god, it made no sense. Numerous gods with finite power meant that they weren't in total control and could resist each others will. By pleasing one god, you have a chance.
theinquisitor 4 years ago
But when you try to say there's only one god, and that he's all good, it became impossible to accept the events in reality at face value. It's like the idea of gaining the favour of the gods was inherited by the later monotheistic religions, and yet this makes no sense when appealing to an all powerful, infinite, all knowing, unchangable god. If the gods were merely extremely powerful beings not in control of everything, then at least it doesn't glaringly contradict all experience.
theinquisitor 4 years ago
why are miracles always good you say!? it's because there is an all powerful human being called God that assigned his personal bias to phenomenons.
windcu 4 years ago
I had the same thoughts last year when that plane skidded off the runway in Canada and burst into flames after everyone evacuated. There no fatalities, and practically every news source proclaimed a miracle. Not one mentioned what actually saved people, the good engineering of the plane, and the well trained crew of the plane who got everyone off in time.
jeremebp 4 years ago
The whole "miracle" thing is a frustrating, insulting load of shit.
Two little girls of about eight years old were murdered right down the street from me. They were talking to one of the people from around the neighborhood on the news. She was going on about how it was an "answered prayer" that the man who committed the murders (the father of one of the girls) was found so shortly after the incident.
Fucking despicable.
eightfootmanchild 4 years ago
I agree that the word miracle is used way too often. However that being said, if God does have a purpose for everyone, perhaps there is a reason that God intervened to save the baby without intervening to save the mother, perhaps these circumstances will set it up for something else later. I also would agree about the positive negative thing that most people never associate a death with miracles, but I think this is just because people don't want to appear rude.
mjcrawford23 4 years ago
why didn't "god" intervene EARLIER before the baby was scratched up, bruised, and freezing all night? God SUCKS as a baby sitter.
KingHeathen 4 years ago
The problem with that question KH, is that we have no common frame of reference. To you God is a fairy tail so any answer I could give based on theology is meaningless. If you consider God to be a force like nature meaning that he is something totally non human, you may as well ask why did it rain today, or why is gravity always attractive?
mjcrawford23 4 years ago
We did, and we found out.
I never really know if christians think that god has a hand in everything that happens or if he just lets things roll, because both contradict a lot of other things in their religion. I assume they think he directly fucks around with shit, if that was true, than he did cause those hurricanes and they did kill a lot of people, and a baby lived. He did it all, he killed all those people, and he let the baby live, with a ruined life of course.
Raiders1393 4 years ago
"We did, and we found out."
Obviously Raiders1393, you do not understand science, we know HOW it rains and HOW gravity works but science does not address WHY. Why is a question of purpose, not of technicality. We know that gravity is always attractive, but there is not a valid reason for why without some kind of supernatural intelligence which science does not deal with. As for your whole God F**Ks around with S**T comment, if you want to have an intelligent debate, be intelligent.
mjcrawford23 4 years ago
If you do not believe in God, specifically the Christian God since that seams to be what you are implying about in your comments, then theology is meaningless to you so even though I may be able to at least begin to understand the why, to you it is pointless so I would ask why do you ask? Anything I could possibly say would be based on theology and therefore meaningless to someone like you.
mjcrawford23 4 years ago
there is no 'why'...don't assign a purpose to something without one.
KingHeathen 4 years ago
it rained because water cooled in the atmosphere and condensed into a cloud and...well, you get the idea. The problem with your response is that you've shifted from a statement confirming a theistic god to one of a deistic god. Deistic "force" god's don't care about intervening. So again, why didn't this god intervene earlier? You can't give a sufficient answer because there isn't one. But THANK YOU for agreeing that "miracles" are overstated.
KingHeathen 4 years ago
"God intervened to save the baby without intervening to save the mother"
This talk of "intervening" makes it sound like your god is not an all-powerful influence on things. Otherwise it sounds like he's intervening with himself. "A man threw a ball and abruptly batted the ball from the air before it went anywhere. He intervened with the ball" Don't you believe your god threw the baby in the first place? "Intervene" sounds like he initially had 0 control of the weather systems and battled them
technologysucks 4 years ago
While you raise an interesting point technologysucks, it still boils down to a theological question for which we have no common point of reference. If you play the 'Sims' and you build a sim who dies in a fire, did you cause the fire? In some ways I think that this is similar, God may have created you, and the world in which you live, but that does not mean that he caused every event in your life to happen.
mjcrawford23 4 years ago
Alright
But doesn't saying he didn't cause the tornado contradict the Christian assertion that he is all powerful? And all-knowing? Therefore wouldn't nothing happen that god didn't want to happen because otherwise he could step in before the fact and prevent it? Wouldn't that mean for some reason god wanted the baby thrown a few hundred feet?
I'm don't know what the 'Sims' are (I'm assuming a computer or video game) but I'm guessing you're not all powerful (You can't control fire, etc.)
technologysucks 4 years ago
If a scientist is observing a virus on a slide under a microscope, he could intervene in many ways to affect the growth of the virus and many other factors however he chooses not to. Perhaps he chooses one specific cell to observe and it comes under attack from another cell, the scientist moves the endangered cell so he can continue to observe it. The cells do not know why he did this, or why he does not spare all the cells even though he can see all the cells and could save them if he chose.
mjcrawford23 4 years ago
Yes, but this hypothetical scientist isn't all-knowing (nor does he care about the other cells). An all-knowing scientist would've predicted the imminent attack beforehand and prevented it. Either that, or stopped the virus from attacking that one cell while all the others get attacked which, if he were all-powerful, the scientist could do.
By your analogy, your god didn't want the baby thrown, so why couldn't an omniscient god predict it and an omnipotent god prevent it beforehand?
technologysucks 4 years ago
You fail to see the beauty of the analogy I used, to the virus the scientist is all knowing. The scientist (assuming he is not some green student) already knows what will happen when he exposes a virus to the environment he sets up. Then he observes to confirm this. One thing about God that many theists and non-theists alike fail to understand is that the Bible is written from Man's point of view, not God's. We know only what God wanted us to know. There are indications in the Bible...
mjcrawford23 4 years ago
That while God is certainly extremely powerful, he may not be completely without limit. There are times when God changes his mind about things, there are times that God is surprised, if God were totally without limit as far as knowledge of past present and future this should not be possible. Keep in mind that the idea that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent is not in the Bible, only in Church doctrine. You will find indications that God certainly not limited...
mjcrawford23 4 years ago
To the virus, the scientist is just a force in its environment beyond its control or understanding, like the movement of our galaxy through the cosmos is to us. But that's beside the point.
Are you admitting that god is not omniscient, omnipotent, or omnipresent and that nature outside his control, sometimes things he didn't want to happen?
If so, that's pretty much what I've been trying to say.
By the way, how do you know god feels surprise? (just wondering)
technologysucks 4 years ago
Matt. 8:10, "...When Jesus heard this, he was astonished..."
This is but one example of God (in this case in the form of Christ) surprised by something. I am not saying exactly what the abilities if God are, however I think that if he chose to, he could do anything we could imagine within this universe. From the perspective of our universe God is all-powerful, however that does not mean that in his 'home' realm he does not have limits.
mjcrawford23 4 years ago
Like the cell on a slide, from the perspective of a human the scientist is just another guy, but from the perspective of the cell he is the all-powerful creator of the universe that the cell is in (the slide) does that make sense?
mjcrawford23 4 years ago
It doesn't fucking matter what the virus "thinks" of the scientist. He's not really all knowing.
With the claim of god, it is that he unequivocally IS. Unless he's all knowing but not clairvoyant. But if that's the case, you must reject the book of Revelations, or any kind of prophecy.
If things can be prophecized, then god must know the future by requisition. So, if he knows the future, then he would be aware that there would be a tornado...he would probably be the instigator, too.
lisamariefan 4 years ago
While I do not appreciate your language, I understand your point. You are assuming of course that everything in prophecy is something that God looked into the future and determined will indeed happen, however what if prophecy is nothing more than God expressing his plan for what will happen? This could explain both sides of the miracle question put forth by KH.
mjcrawford23 4 years ago
For example: God wants a Church to succeed, he decides to choose Joe to lead it, but then a tornado hits, so he saves Joe... on the flip side God knows based on his unlimited knowledge of the currant universe that Joe's mom would most likely oppose Joe joining the Church, so he does not bother to save Joe's mom, or even causes her to die so his 'plan' will move forward. I am attempting to explain things in a non-theological manor so please do not flame me for not speaking in 'Church lingo'
mjcrawford23 4 years ago
While God killing one person and saving another for what appears to be arbitrary reasons may seam cruel and wrong from our perspective, we do not think twice about doing the same thing to simple life to achieve our own plans. Like killing lab animals in order to develop a vaccine for a killer illness that will save countless other animals. If God is at least as far ahead of us as we are to a simple cell, then we have no way to truly understand his methods or reason.
mjcrawford23 4 years ago
why didn't he just stop the tornado? Or not create the tornado.
KingHeathen 4 years ago
Perhaps because it seams that he created a universe with certain regularities and rules of operation, and he only intervenes when necessary to complete his agenda. Just as a scientist observing animal behavior might step forward to save a test subject, but not intervene to save the non-test animals.
mjcrawford23 4 years ago
that would imply that he didn't care about the ones that died...are you sure you want to go with that answer?
KingHeathen 4 years ago
I did not say he does not care, only that he may prioritize in that he chooses people to do certain things, and unless that is endangered he does not intervene. I am sure that almost every biologist who studies animals in the field love animals, but they watch them die every day. If you love something, that does not mean that you always protect it from harm. When parents try to 'shelter' their children until they are 18, the kids are not ready to deal with the world when they finally see it.
mjcrawford23 4 years ago
I want you to think about your response and then look up the school bus accident that recently happened...look up the school that was destroyed and several students killed in Alabama last year from the tornado...look up Katrina...the tsunami...etc. None of those people were important enough for god to save?
KingHeathen 4 years ago
I do not claim to know who is important and who is not KH. I only suggest that for the most part God does not intervene. As we talked about earlier God does not routinely commit 'miracles' and most likely the baby you mentioned in the video was as you suggested most likely purely randomly spared. Miracles are rare by definition.
mjcrawford23 4 years ago
so since we can determine that he doesn't do it OFTEN...what's to say he does it EVER. Since there are so many cases where the "miracle" ends up with nothing more than a coincidental outcome...why call it a "miracle" when "coincidence" is more suitable?
KingHeathen 4 years ago
I would agree that at least the vast majority of 'miracles' are coincidence; however I could not go so far as to say all. It is entirely possible and reasonable from a theist position to say that most likely there have not been any supernatural miracles since the 1st century. While some claim to various healings and life changing experiences, I would say that reasonably one could say that while their faith may have healed them...
mjcrawford23 4 years ago
...that does not mean that God himself directly acted. As for people whose life had changed for the better after converting, that could also be due to a better attitude and refreshed will to do something. That being said, I know that many point to verses in the Bible that talk about man doing even greater things that Christ did in the future, and I think that we have mostly through science. We have wiped out some diseases...
mjcrawford23 4 years ago
...we have sent men into space; we have the ability to fly, and to routinely transport ourselves at speeds that were not even imaginable 2000 years ago. It is truly amazing what man has done in the last 100 years, let alone 2000. I think that part of the reason that miracles do not take place routinely is if they did, what would be the point in faith? There is nothing special about believing in something you can plainly see in front of you.
mjcrawford23 4 years ago
My take on these miracles that happened way back when and the fact that they are not happening now is:If they happened in the past,
the word of them was spread from person to person down the line. This took a long time to get to the major populace. By the time the good deeds got to the major populace, they had turned into miracles. Nowdays with our immediate communication system these good deeds remain just that. They media might build the deeds up to sell papers but they are still deeds.
maurieer 4 years ago
While that seams sound... it does not really explain the kind of miracles described in the Bible... If a man beet up 3 guys to save a woman in distress.. it could become a man taking on an army after many layers of re-telling.. However if someone is going around healing the sick.. That is a little harder to explain. Let alone the 'acts of God' like the 10 plagues, or mana, or fire from the sky type stuff..
mjcrawford23 4 years ago
On the lighter side... perhaps Jonah was just like Captain Jack Sparrow.. instead of using his hair to catch dolphins to ride to safety.. he just rode in the belly of a whale... then he swaggered into the city and said "I'm Captain Jonah Sparrow... you are all going to die... cause... your bad or something, savvy?"
mjcrawford23 4 years ago
There was a documentary about today`s faith healers like Benny Hinn and maybe you`ve seen it. All the people entering the arena who want some health problem healed are given a questionaire to fill out about their health problem. Hinn`s staff go through these and pick out the easy health problems ie headache
backache etc. A staff member has a two way radio giving hinn info via Hinn`s ear piece to enable him to pick out the easy ones to cure.They don`t pick people who have anything serious.
maurieer 4 years ago
As a man of faith, I have no respect for people like Hinn and others that claim miraculous healing ability in a circus type of environment. If they are truly healing people, they should allow themselves to be tested by independent scientists attending their 'roadside revivals' I truly believe that there is a special place in Hell for people that use the name of God for personal gain like this.
mjcrawford23 4 years ago
mjcrawford23: I agree. Hinn and the likes of him should suffer the pains of a hell.
maurieer 4 years ago
well the negative is just "god's Plan" (or the work of that dastardly devil), anything good must surely be the work of god. After all we know lesser good things come from greater good things, and all good comes from god as he is the most awesomely awesome being of pure good. I mean think of all that god has given us: The cosmos, the sun, the earth, freewill, and the devil.
On a more serious note, another great vid! Good to analyze those situations and put them into perspective.
ExoditeTyr 4 years ago
Yeah, GOD did this....what a ****. Sorry that God doesn't come to your rescue like some religious Superman....It must just piss right in your Cheerios everytime anyone (rightly or wrongly) attributes ANYTHING to God. And this hurts you how?
broadjumper1 4 years ago
"Yeah, GOD did this....what a ****. Sorry that God doesn't come to your rescue like some religious Superman....It must just piss right in your Cheerios everytime anyone (rightly or wrongly) attributes ANYTHING to God. And this hurts you how?"
Thats true, according to several christian evangelicals, Hurricane Katrina and 9-11 were miraculous acts of god.
jeremebp 4 years ago
So this means we ALL believe that this kind of thing is by the hand of God? Hardly. You Atheists need to get yourselves some new brushes, we're all tired of being painted with the same ones...but it does keep you having have to think about us on more than one level.
broadjumper1 4 years ago
You ask to be painted with the same brush by calling yourself a christian. Being a christian means you accept certain things.
jeremebp 4 years ago
Without the miracles in the bible... hes not mush of a god is he?
FurieMan 4 years ago
Oh, because YOU say so? Please, that's utter bullshit that allows you to avoid dealing with us an individuals, easier for your to retain your bigotry and hypocrisy. Try using your intellect to communicate rather than just label for sake of convenience and expedience.
broadjumper1 4 years ago
Sorry but its not generalization. And sadly, it doesn't matter what the fuck you think in regards to it "applying" to you. A miracle, as a definition, is just interference by god, and if you accept that he exists than you have to take the good with the bad when it comes to miracles. Otherwise your just in denial, but im sure you're tired of hearing that term aswell.
Crawler101010101 4 years ago
It's absolutely a GENERALIZATION. Nor does it matter what the fuck you think is interference by God. You can't (either can a Christian) say if God had His 'hand' in it or not. The word has become a throwaway just like logical, rational, atheist...speaking of being in denial.
broadjumper1 4 years ago
Cursing is a sin. Better confess right quick.
jeremebp 4 years ago
Wow, what a profound response...I knew you guys were all substance, not just style...
broadjumper1 4 years ago
"Wow, what a profound response...I knew you guys were all substance, not just style... "
Apparently a sense of humor is not a christian virtue.
jeremebp 4 years ago
Sure we do, we laugh at you guys all the time...;)
broadjumper1 4 years ago
I never said ALL of ANYBODY did ANYTHING. Don't twist my words. If you agree, then be like mjcrawford and admit that people like this should rethink what they say...don't muddy the water with your straw men.
KingHeathen 4 years ago
KH, people will SAY whatever they wish without your permission especially in times of stress whether or NOT they believe in GOD. Ever catch yourself saying 'swear to God?, Oh my God?, I know there are plenty of other ways you've used His name. This is no different it's JUST a term people use to describe something for which they have no other explanation. Like I said, this hurts you how? Because someone invokes a Christian concept? Because it denotes something good when YOU KNOW we're ALL evil?
broadjumper1 4 years ago
broadjumper1, you failed to concede that there are people that are in the mindset that KingHeathen described. I have a feeling you'll continue shouting out your delusions of victimization, taking offense to charges which should only applicable via association of name. If the latter is a the case, then you should be taking proactive measures against the elements of your religious belief that prompts such judgements.
AdmiralPeacock 4 years ago
Of COURSE there are, just like there are Atheists with mindsets like Ted Kacsinski. Do I ASSUME all of you are as insane as he is? No, but you sure have little problem suggesting that all Christians believe God is responsible for everything that happens in the world. And AP, I don't feel victimized in the least, and you could even if you tried. I'm only here to try to keep you folks fairly honest. Oh and the day I need your advice on how to live, I'll wring it out of you.
broadjumper1 4 years ago
Hey, if you want to "wring" anything out of me, you're more than welcome to try sweetie pie. YAY! Look Mum, I'm an internet tough guy too!
AdmiralPeacock 4 years ago
And that means about as much as your opinion, but should I visit Australia again, fear not. I'll have far better things to do than wring anything out of you...besides, you might bore me to death..
broadjumper1 4 years ago