im a pitcher myself to pick off to first just like u did has to be done in a quick movement but with your right foot going to third first then throwing to first base..
@jama1120 What you describe is called a jab step. It is legal but so is the move in the video if done correctly. The foot doesn't have to go to 3B first. Many players/coaches/fans, and sadly umpires, don't know this b/c they don't bother to actually read the rule book or get interpretation umpire manuals to learn the rules.
This isn't a balk but it isn't recommended. As the umpire who called it a balk proved, not all umpires know the rules of the game they are calling.
@TheRumshaker1 Prove it. Show the rule that says it. Get an interpretations manual or Jim Evans Balk Video and show where this is described as a balk. Don't waste your time b/c you won't find it b/c you are wrong.
SDSUChemTA has the a great answer. Seriously, read the rule book, attend an umpiring clinic held by a legitimate training company or organization, and don't rely on urban legend or 'life experiences' indicating the legality of certain actions in the game.
Man, does no one actually read the rule book? It is available online for those who THINK they have a balk here for not stepping off the rubber. Look at rule 8.05 and see where it says the pitcher has to step off first.
obviously its a balk because you didnt step off the mound you gotta take a stepp off before you go to pick off someone as soon as your right foot leaves the front of the rubber your free to pick off at any given base
Any kind of illegal deception too a runner will be a balk. If the point of this move is too be quicker than a spin move then I'm not sure about it, but if it too deceive the runner by making him think as the pitcher front leg moves that he is going home to the plte then it can be a balk by deception.
Secondly....Same rule comment for 8.05 states "With a runner on first base the pitcher may make a COMPLETE TURN, without hesitating toward first, and throw to second. This is not to be considered as throwing to an unoccupied base."
This says that he can make the move to first and throw to second. However the point is that it clearly describes the move to first as a "complete turn". In this video he only turn his shoulders....therefore it creates doubt in the umpire....result....BALK.
@TheJcperla Thanks for the posts. However, how can you deceive if you have no intention on not throwing the ball to first? He is turning and throwing. Period. He is not "breaking" any rule - like making the runner think he is throwing home. Also, he is not breaking any rule that says he has to step off. Every rule book says the pitcher "while in the set position, can pick to ANY base". If you are in the "SET POSITION" you are engaged with the mound. Also, the second post doesn't apply.
@bocolvin The more I look at the video I totally see what you are saying. However I would question why anyone would want to put so much in the officials hands when the rule book clearly also allows him to think about the pitcher's intent when it appears questionable. At the end of the day what we think doesn't apply when the ump makes the call. I would hate to lose a championship game on a call like this. Perhaps that is why the PROs wouldn't dream of using it and leaving it to the ump.
@bocolvin also on a non related point, I just witnessed a severe knee injury (tore ligament) when a player attempted a similar move (not the pitcher though). From an anatomy standpoint, there is a lot of twisting motion on the pivot knee, especially when not moving the heal. I will agree with you that if this was called a balk I would argue it because he is stepping to first. However if there is increased risk of knee injury because of the torque being applied the "balk" call is insignificant!
@TheJcperla The main point is a kid was called for a balk because he did this move in a game. the umpire said "by rule, he has to come off the rubber to pick to first"... that is when this all started. I'm not arguing the best move and it's consequences, I am arguing this move is NOT breaking any rules. Coaches normally teach pitchers to step off or the spin move, all the while coaches are teaching kids to "watch the heel of the pitcher" and these moves have been misconstrued as RULES
By no means do I consider myself an expert and I may be wrong, but based on the comment for rule 8.05 "Umpires should bear in mind that the purpose of the balk rule is to prevent the pitcher from deliberately deceiving the runner. If there is doubt in the umpire's mind, the "intent" of the pitcher should govern.
Based on that it's clear the intent is to "fool" the runner. Therefore I would see this called a balk more often than not.
@TheJcperla That comment is for when a move is questionable of being a balk based on the clearly defined 13 possible balks outlined in 8.05. That comment is the most dangerous statement in the book and should be removed. This move does not violate any of the 13 so it is completely legal. ALL good pickoff attempts are meant to "fool" the runner. Do not use that statement when considering if it is a balk. Use the 13 combined with that comment for questionable ones.
@WTHRUSmoking What is being missed here is that if this move is so questionable and from reading this post it is clear that there is much debate about whether it is or not. That being the case it almost automatically ends up in the quesitonable area to begin with.
It is a very interesting move that does appear to break the rules unless you break it down in which it "technically" doesn't. Therefore that is the reason for the "intent" comment.
@WTHRUSmoking This applies to all sports, rules are never 100% perfect which is why they are modified all the time. Intent is there just like in basketball when trying to determine if a foul is flagrant or not. It is the human element to officiating that makes it difficult and to which teams and players try to push the limits.
I would guess that is why this is not a PRO move...too much is put in the officials eye and you don't want them questioning your "intent"....thus they leave the rubber.
@TheEilering Yeah, but this is a simulation. There is no first baseman unless you count the truck or if there is a vehicle in front of it in the driveway.
@motoxrider115 Another wrong answer. No rule says that. For most moves, it is just physics that causes the release. But, no rule says the back foot has to come off first.
@motoxrider115 ur foot doesnt have to be behind the rubber, although it cant still be in front of the rubber. the quickest pickoff move for me as a righthander is sliding my back foot back versus stepping behind the mound. ive thrown a lot of guys out doing it
@motoxrider115 That's the point. He doesn't have to move his back foot when making the pickoff move. NO rule says the pivot foot has to move at all. I can provide a link to the rule book if you are willing to actually read it and see there is no rule stating anything about the pivot foot having to release the rubber before a pickoff move is made.
@AppleHacks11 Wrong. Pivot foot can still be in front of the rubber. Ever heard of a jump turn or jab step. I am RH as well and did the jump turn when I pitched. It is much quicker than moving your pivot foot back. Learn those 2 moves. Neither one puts the pivot foot behind the rubber and doesn't need it to move back first.
A pitcher does NOT have to step off the rubber Once a pitcher steps of the rubber he is no longer the pitcher he is an infielder and may do what he pleases pretty much
A)the pitcher, while touching the plate, makes any motion naturally associated with the pitch and fails to make such delivery.
C) the pitcher, while touching the plate , fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base.
most coaches teach to step off because it is at the umpires discretion
the step off has to happen for a right handed pitcher throwing to first unless there is a man on third and you attempt the weak fake to third throw to first move. the pitcher has to come to a set position then make his move to the plate or if attempting a pick off. there is also the rule that if your lead pitching leg crosses your post leg then the pitcher must throw home. or if the pitcher starts his wind up or stretch and his leg motions towards home, then he has to go to home.
the step off has to happen for a right handed pitcher throwing to first unless there is a man on third and you attempt the weak fake to third throw to first move. the pitcher has to come to a set position then make his move to the plate or if attempting a pick off. there is also the rule that if your lead pitching leg crosses your post leg then the pitcher must throw home. or if the pitcher starts his wind up or stretch and his leg motions towards home, then he has to go to home.
@bigslugg79 You are correct on two of the three scenarios per the rule books. I looked in the rule book again and can't fing the RULE that says a RHP has to step off the mound when picking to first. A RHP can pick to any base when in the set position, per the rule book, as long as he steps directly toward the base he is picking to.
@bigslugg79 He does not have to step off before making a pick off attempt.
His foot has to go behind the back edge of the rubber, not his post leg before being committed to going to HP. It has to be the foot b/c the knee can go behind the rubber and the pitcher can still do a pick off to 1B/3B.
And, he does not have to come set to do a pick off, only when throwing a pitch.
Just b/c the pros don't do something does not mean it is illegal. It just means they stick with the basic moves and don't actually want to exploit as much as they are allowed to.
80% of the games are played with 20% of the rules.
Though, it isn't recommended to do this b/c you are relying on so many to actually take the time to learn, interpret, get umpire manuals, and actually read the rules before seeing a move like this. Don't count on it as you can see by so many saying it is a balk for something which it is not.
@WTHRUSmoking Any umpire that has to get a "manual" and read the rules for any scenario obviously hasn't been trained well enough. No lie, I have heard "Even though its legal, you shouldn't do it because our umpires haven't been trained to deal with that situation." Its laziness on the part of the officials. If an umpire doesn't have the rulebook committed to memory, or carry a copy on him during games, sack his ass because he is not doing his job.
@avsfan331940 You are joking right. No umpire worth anything carries a rule book during the game. And, even the best trained ones (any who have been to pro school) have to read the manuals. Why? They change each year with new rules and interpretations. A well trained umpire knows this. You do not apparently.
Get a manual or 2. You might learn something before spouting ignorance on the internet for all to see.
Lifting the foot, in and of itself, does not constitute a step. Forget about the "deceiving a runner" part in the book. That is for something else which so many don't understand or realize. For what this video is trying to prove, is not a balk. 8.05(c) does not apply until the actual step is made. Then, where that step goes is what counts. Also, the comment is about when the pitcher doesn't lift his foot at all. There is no rule which says a pitcher has to disengage before a pick off.
@johnandammonoutdoors I can turn and step directly to first base just like I can turn and step directly toward second base. Actually, anybody can turn and step directly toward first and second base. The rule book says you can pick to any base while in the set position as long as you gain distance and direction. The kid in this video is turning and stepping directly toward first base.
Balk. Can not bend the knee if you going to throw to a base. You are not going to find the balk rules spelled out. But it is common knowledge for umpires that you can not ben the back knee and throw to a base.
it's a balk because his front leg was the first leg to move. his leg on the rubber has to move first for it not to be a balk. with his front leg moving first, in the judgment of the umpire he is deceiving the runner
@Nextstar33 Thank you. Finally someone who knows what they are talking about. You do not have to step off the rubber first as long as you throw throw the ball to first when you do not step off first. If you step off first then you do not have to throw the ball.
@Nextstar33 I just looked in the rule book again and can't see anything that says a pitcher (RHP or LHP) has to move his foot off the mound when picking to any base. So, how can the pitcher be deceiving the runner when he is basically turning and throwing without any hesitation.. In other words, he is picking to first so you need to get back to the base... Period! there is no deceipt there....
@bocolvin even though it's not in the rule book, it's not good to teach kids bad habits. It's a rule everywhere else. Working on geting of the mound quick and getting your shoulders turned toward first base will make him more successful.
@PixelCounters I'm not debating pick off moves here, as to each his own. I agree with getting off the mound quickly. There is NOT ONE RULE BOOK that says you have to step off the mound to pick to any base.
@Nextstar33 The rule is that the pitcher has to step toward the base with his non-pivot foot, in this case his left foot. He does not have to disengage the rubber with his pivot or left foot. The only thing is that he may not feint to first if he does not disengage.
ok obviously it isnt a balk. it is only a balk if you dont throw the ball to first. if you step off the mound you dont have to throw it but if you dont, then u have to.
Pretty good video. After I saw the very first "pick off" I said balk. Then after watching the last couple it is NOT a balk. The pitcher does NOT have to disengage the rubber he only has to step to first base. Although I do think that if done improperly or too quickly your pitcher does run the risk of a knee injury to include a tear of the meniscus, ACL, or MCL.
Baseball basic 101...OBVIOUS balk...a right handed pitcher must step off the rubber with his back foot before throwing to first base. Some local youth programs will just let the kids play without calling and some inexperienced umpires simply dont know the rules. Some of the other posts suggesting that this move is legal dont know what they're talking about.
@bocolvin To you Bo and all these so called "hi level coaches" the rule book states that a bulk ,by definition, is when" a pitcher intentionally deceives a baserunner" . It also states that a pitcher, who is set on the mound, must step directly at an occupied base in attempting a pick off ..its physically impossible for a right handed pitcher, who is set on the mound to step directly towards first base. Think what you want! Keep teaching your pitchers this move..good luck with that on the field!
@ncpete45 WRONG. As long as you don't step toward any other base before you step toward first, you are stepping directly toward first base. It's not different than a RHP or LHP stepping directly toward second for a pickoff as they have to move their bodyhips to step toward second.
@bocolvin you can step towards any base, just not home....say you step off to throw towards third, then throw to 1st...you are good...pointless, but you can do that.
@bocolvin hahaa this is amusing... First off, you're the one that's WRONG, so stop being so close-minded and just listen to the 100's of people telling you it's a balk. You say that he is not making any move to the plate, but in reality, the simple lifting of the front foot on a RHP is considered a move towards home.
@bocolvin Let me put it this way, doing it this way would clearly be a quicker move to first, right? And I'm sure big league pitchers want to make their move as quick as they can, right? So why don't you find me a video of a Major League RHP using this move without having a balk called on him... Good luck.
@256kibz I will find your video for you AFTER you show me in the rule book anything that says it is a RULE for a RHP to step off the mound before picking to first. I have had this video reviewed by Major League umpires and they said "NO BALK". If a pitcher in a major league doesn't use this move, or any move, they don't delete from the rule book.
ACTUALLY IT IS NOT A BALK. I did this throughout high school, and worked everytime.as long as your left foot goes toward first and not home it is legal!! some umps will call it that are inexperienced. i was taught by pro pitcher orel hershiser from the dodgers
ACTUALLY IT IS NOT A BALK. I did this throughout high school, and worked everytime.as long as your left foot goes toward first and not home it is legal!! some umps will call it that are inexperienced. i was taught by pro pitcher oell hershiser from the dodgers
@RDLong105 I have one. This is a balk without disengaging the back foot from the rubber first or making a move to third first. That is a balk at any level of play.
you have to pick up your heel or move your back leg before you can move the first in the direction to pick off the runner at first. if you move your back leg first and go home to pitch, the ump will either not notice or call a balk.
to all the people saying this isn't a balk, if this move is legal why dont you see pitchers at the professional level using it? if you can find me a video of any pitcher in the MLB that has ever used this move and it is not called a balk please send it to me, but untill then its an illegal move in my view
8.05c "It is a balk when ... The pitcher, while touching his plate, fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base"
This will always remain a question for the umpire in-game. The movement in question is whether he has stepped "DIRECTLY" toward first. His moves look mostly good to me, the last one was the clearest: not a balk.
Just this past month I completed the Harry Wendelstedt Umpire School and yes, I am one of the 23 out of 162 that did move on. That move is not a balk as long as the pitcher does not break his knee, nor can he show any movement associated with his pitch. As long as he steps directly to and throws to first he is fine in accordance to the rules. Hope this helps.
this is for sure a balk. as a RHP picking off you have to move your back foot behind the rubber then throw to 1st base. but for a pick off to second base you dont have to remove your foot from the rubber, you can do the spin move, and you dont have to remove your foot from the rubber if you are picking off to third base either.
@The22Fresh said "this is for sure a balk. as a RHP picking off you have to move your back foot behind the rubber then throw to 1st base. but for a pick off to second base you dont have to remove your foot from the rubber, you can do the spin move, and you dont have to remove your foot from the rubber if you are picking off to third base either"
Please show us in the rulebook where it says RHP must disengage before throwing to 1B.
You can not go across your body like that, you must either step off the mound or be left handed. going across your body like that is making motion towards the plate, which is a balk.
@agentsmith10100 .. I just looked in the rule book and couldn't find that rule. What about the Spin move by a pitcher picking to second? Right or Left handed he is going in a circle across his body to throw to second. That is the Same scenario you are saying is a pitching motion...coming across his body.
Yes but for spin move to be legal a clear and direct step towards the occupied base is required....The point is not to deceive the runners to batters with a move but to beat them with play.
@bocolvin I want to encourage you to keep educating the large number of coaches who think they know the rules. Have you noticed the "Baseball Pitcher pitching rules" video which supports the "it's not a balk" interpretation"?
@bocolvin .. on the spin move to second, the only reason he can go to second is because his free foot crosses the rubber, the pick off move in the video is a balk because he doenst step directly toward 1st, he "swings" his foot, tust me i just looked it up in the rule book, 8.05 a, b, and c
Anyway, back to the rules: A pitcher's "natural pitching motion" isn't the same as "stepping towards the bag to throw." If you think the pitcher's step looks like he's pitching, then sure, call it a balk, and that's exactly what happened to Buehrle. But according to the rules, all pitchers are allowed to step to a bag and throw. You can clearly see in the above video that he steps towards 1B, which is legal. 8.01b and c. Read the book!
if this is such a great move& is legal, then MLB RHPs would use it constantly& they dont. U have no proof or vids. all u guys do good is screwing up the rules interpretations.My proof is neither of u can produce a video of a RHP doing this move,because every MLB knows it is a balk because they HAVE BASEBALL KNOWLEDGE, which niether of you have.I have given you names of MANY pros I know personally & professionally. Niether of you have 1/100th of my baseball knowledge or experience. 8.05a
Again, the "number of online videos" doesn't determine if a move is legal; the RULEBOOK does (8.01b and c.). Do you see anybody swing the bat holding it with just one hand? No, but it's still legal according the rulebook.
Oh, and I love how you constantly quote 8.01c, but conviently forget the beginning of the rule ... "until his natural pitching motion commits him to the pitch."
Seriously, read what you want to read ... believe what you want to believe.
8.01 b: From such Set Position he may deliver the ball to the batter, throw to a base or step backward off the pitcher’s plate with his pivot foot.
8.01 c: At any time during the pitcher’s preliminary movements and until his natural pitching motion commits him to the pitch, he may throw to any base provided he steps directly toward such base before making the throw.
Note that there is NO obligation to step off going to first base, or exceptions for RHP/LHP. Not a balk!
@SDSUChemTA Well said SDSU.. I don't see anything that says any pitcher whether LHP or RHP has to step off to pick to first. They only have to "step directly toward such base before making the throw".. Unless the rules between the lines say different and I can't see those.
I love how you told me you got emails from wendlestadt and evans ... yet when I went to evans it said and I quote... "Please Do Not ask personal questions or questions about rules or situations because you will not receive an answer."
you are so full of crap. I'd take a video at my state clinic next month, which has always had a MLB umpire present, but it would be ridiculously embarrassing to ask a question that stupid.
@3018276800 I offered to forward you the email he sent me. I don't see any reason you can't email him either........or anyone else you feel would have the correct answer because your experience and who you know doesn't mean you wrote the rules.
@bocolvin now I beleive you ... WOW an email from HUNTER ... RIIIIIGHT... lmao. First of all, Hunter sucks & doesnt know jack about the game. He got into the show riding his dad's name & coat tails. He did not play baseball & is the worst rated umpire in MLB. Do you remember the playoff game last year where he was tremendously inconsistent & missed like 40-50 pitches? It was a scene. I dont believe u or this "email" for one sec, but I do believe Hunter sucks enough to not know the rules.
That move is legal because he steps toward firstbase. I would work with him on a quick jump turn, to get the ball to firstbase as quickly as possible.
@3018276800 We reviewed this tape last year. The pitcher does not appear to be balking. The main point that must be reviewed is did the pitcher go towards home. If so a then it is a balk. Again based on this tape it does not appear from the angle given the pitcher is coming home and thus not a balk.
The video you submitted of the young man in the blue jacket illustrates a perfectly legal move to first base. Anyone who says that move is illegal is either uninformed or not using the Official Baseball Rules as the source for their interpretation.
Naturally, the pitcher can step back off the rubber with his pivot foot and throw to first or choose not to. Once he has legally disengaged, he can basically do anything he wants to.
This video shows how amatuers with no knowledge of the game can misinterpret the rules. Anyone that says this move is legal is either uninformed or not interpreting rule 8.05a with its proper intent.
Naturally I will fill them in when I see them ... if they are fortunate enough to make it to me.
@3018276800 Since all the people listed in the emails I posted say "no balk".. can you please explain why it is a balk in your mind? Start by explaining how a RHP picking to first is ANY different in the start of the picking move for this base, as all the moves except for the hop step start out the same: With the lifting of the free foot. This should be good........
@SDSUChemTA again 8.05a get a clue. I find this whole conversation exchange frustrating & completely ignorant. I give you the rule that applies to this balk move, yet u 2 still stick to your guns. In spite of the fact, I ump some proextended spring training, D1& other NCAA, FHSAA, over 400+gms a yr(>2K in last5yrs),played D1, coached D1, rub elbows w/proumps& players,& basically been in the gm my whole life while bocolvin coached kids for 20yrs. WOW! this is sounding more&more stupid every sec.
I love this conversation exchange because it makes you look stupid and 10 years old. It's a disgrace to other umpires that you talk and argue like a child, so that's why I don't believe anything you say. So just say "Ok ok I'm just joking, I'm not really an umpire, I just like to argue like a woman!" and you'll be ok.
FYI, the reason my language is chopped up & I use "u" instead of "you" is due to the character limits placed on responses here on youtube. I have no choice but to talk like that. However, I do umpire & quite a bit at a level you can only pay to get in & see.
LMAO- U guys have this AWESOME LEGAL MOVE that would pick off baserunners left&right, yet no one at the highest levels of the game uses it, EVER ... & that doesnt jump out at you? that's simply the dumbest thing ever.
Lastly, the rule book. THERE IS NOTHING IN THE RULE BOOK THAT SAYS YOU HAVE TO DISENGAGE THE RUBBER WHEN PICKING TO ANY BASE. You can't simulate a pitch for the RHP only when picking to first and not the other bases, as long as there is not motion TOWARDS HOME you are not intentionally deceiving the runner.
@3018276800 This is my last reply to you. EVERY pickoff move while engaged with the rubber starts with the lifting of the free foot for a RHP and LHP. The RHP picking to first in no exception. Again, this is my whole point to this video and had more umpire schools besides Wendelsteldt say NO BALK. Good luck in your umpiring and feel free to use this video for any future discussions in your quest to call the right game.
considerng wendlestat is considered to be the worst umpire in the pros, I wouldn't take his word as gospel. That is one thing many people struggle with ... that just because someone is in the "show" ... players or umps ... doesnt mean they know what they are doing. Understand almost 100% of pro umpires never played higher than HS baseball. Because pro pitchers never do this move, the dumbass umps, like harry wendlestat, would never have to make that call. I assure you it is a balk...
@3018276800 Well, since they are all wrong, I guess you win. All coaches teach the watching of the heel. Not just the big leagues. That is why I have seen a lot of people picked off at first. This move made the runner watch the pitchers "intent" as the rule books intended. If the pitcher motions toward home.. You run. If the turned to the base. ... you get back. As with anything, you have to back your answers with the RULE BOOK. The Rule Book is what everyone looks at to be right.
Did I leave off the MLB Umpire website to? They said no balk also. Remember, follow the RULE BOOK. Don't read between the lines to back up your claim. Did I mention the Babe Ruth Rules Committe? They said no balk also. Did I mention the olympic umpires at Baseballexcellence com? They said no balk also. Everyone I have listed has seen this Video and said NO BALK> I just read your new yahoo site again and it isn't goin well in your favor.......
Also, I know Luis Tiant & Adam Wainwright on a personal level. Tiant was the coach at SCAD when I played a few yrs in Sav & I actually played with his son Luis Jr. I caught Adam's older brother, Trey, in HS (Glynn Academy in Brunswick,GA) & tried to use my relationship w/ him to recruit him, which was useless because he was a stud 1st rounder. One has won a Cy Young and the other is pretty damn close to winning one ... & they'd laugh their asses off at this.
@3018276800 I have played and coached baseball for over 20 years. I had been taught and used this move as a pitcher to have it never called a BALK. I started coaching and taught this move to players and had it called a balk by an umpire that had never played but was taking advice from someone that played for a coach that taught him to disengage. He was "told" it was a rule but never could find out how it was a rule. That is when I started researching this to only find out people think
@bocolvin its a rule for "ONE" reason. That reason is the picking up of the free foot. They claim that is the "start" of the pitch to the plate. Tell me how that can be the start of a pitch for a RHP picking to first only....?? Even when the LHP picks his free foot up he is allowed to go to first. Hmmmmm.. wait a minute, he picked up his free foot so isn't he starting his delivery to the plate??? Let's read the rule book. It doesn't say a thing about any of this nonsense. It only talk
@bocolvin about the intention of the pitcher to deliver a pitch to the plate. It's BLACK and WHITE.. There is not any "Deception" in this move. The pitcher is turning and throwing to first. PERIOD. There is no intention to the plate at all. Stepping off the rubber to pick to first is nothing more than a "MOVE". It is not a rule!! The only time a pitchers natural motion is to the plate is when he starts to deliver "TO THE PLATE". IF he used this move and went to the plate first..balk!
I suggest you never umpire high level ball ... it would be a disaster and quite a show if you let a play like that go against any of the ex-pros I mentioned earlier ... especially someone like Reggie or Chet. You do understand pros and colleges teach baserunners to key on the left leg of a RHP when on 1B dont U? Your move would be lethal and players like Crawford would be picked off constantly with your move if it were legal ... that is all the proof you should need.
@3018276800 I see your point here. But, when everyone referenced the rule book, the one about stepping off wasn't there. The point.. You can't read between the lines and make up rules.
Exactly. You can't make up rules and declare something illegal just because you never see it. This is why everybody needs to simply read the rule book.
@bocolvin I agree the rule book is filled with numerous grey areas. It takes decades of intense field work, playing, umping, & coaching, to get an expert view on these grey areas- then something is still bound to surprise U. BTW the rules actually state I can read between the lines:
pro rule 9.01c "Each umpire has authority to rule on any point not specifically covered in these
rules."
SDSU-still seeing the grey he wants 2- c'mon man, U used a LHP to validate ur pt 4 cryin out loud!
@3018276800 Good point on the umpire being able to call things not specifically covered. I have read that. But, that makes it hard to play a consistant game from one town to the next. That's why it's critical to specify the rule in the rule book exactly as it should be. If it said, " the RHP must disengage the rubber when picking to first" there would be no grey area. All umpires should point to something in the rule book when they make a call to back up their call. They can't point here.
I don't see how 9.01c allows one to "read between the lines." The rules are written in the book, and one can't go making up new rules that go against what's already printed there. Now, when a distant nuke causes the baseball to suddenly disintegrate in the middle of a pitch, then use 9.01c.
@3018276800 ALSO, as SDSU is saying, the rule book doesn't say that a LHP can doing something a RHP can't. The same rules applie to all pitchers. Plus, if it isn't in the rule book how can an umpire call something that isn't there?
@bocolvin exactly pitchers are held to the same standards Right or Left .... Consequently, a LHP can't do the same move in the video to 3B. Just the way it is.
You said: "Consequently, a LHP can't do the same move in the video to 3B. Just the way it is."
Uh no. All pitchers, whether RH or LH, can step and throw to ANY base, according to Rules 8.01 b and c. Last I checked, 3B falls under this definition.
@SDSUChemTA Again, I asked u to provide video evidence of this move & u show me a LHP, which is NOT this move. I challenge u to find a MLB RHP going to 1B like the video or any MLB LHP going to 3B like the video did straight from the rubber. Again, this has nothing to do w/ the rules u r quoting. The violation has 2 do w/ rule8.05a. Its not my fault the pro rules dont list every "motion naturally associated with
his pitch" so u can more easily grasp the concept. Good luck finding a video!
You're not supposed to call a game based on "how many videos a move has" evidence. Rules 8.01b and c say ANY pitcher can STEP AND THROW towards ANY base. Read the rulebook.
@SDSUChemTA Good Point!!! Also, if a pitcher happens to disengage the rubber, he immediately becomes an infielder. So, if he overthrows first and the ball goes out of play, it will be a 2 base error instead of 1 . So, the move in my video is doing a few good things. First, he isn't breaking any rules. Second, he is going to catch all the people that are taught to "watch the heel" totally flat footed. This is a GOOD MOVE that will give a pitcher an edge.
@SDSUChemTA&bocolvin. I do read the rulebooks & apparently Im the only 1 of us 3 that can interpret it.
Again, I do not dispute any of your rule citings, just your interpretation of those rules. Again, rule8.05a sums it up & u either dont have the baseball knowledge or the ability 2 listen 2 understand why that move is a balkmove.
Bocolvin even admits itsa balkmove in hislast response. MLBplayers R taught 2 "watch the heel"-so why dont MLB pitchers use this move? simple answer:its a balk
What is there to interpet? The rule is black and white when it says a pitcher may throw to ANY base from the set position while engaged with the mound. You can only teach "watching the heel" because it is COMMON for coaches to teach pitchers to lift their heel and spin on their toes with the mound foot. This is WHY this MOVE has been misconstrued with being a RULE when it's NOT. I have coached and been around coaches that taught that move but only for acheiving a coordinated turn.
@3018276800 PLUS, not all kids can do the move in the video. It is an awkward move and takes good coordination. If you are really an umpire, I would challenge you to submit to your appeal committee for an official ruling like a protest in a game. Don't just gather your local umpires, go directly to the LEAGUES NATIONAL office for an official ruling. IF you can do this and it comes back as a balk, I will throw in the towel. Can you say the same? ( I already did this and "NO BALK)
This is what he'd say to a rules committee: "There are no videos online of an MLB pitcher doing it, so therefore it must be illegal, and it's just common sense, and my gray area interpretation, mmmkay?"
And that isnt how I would phrase it ... it would go more like this ... "these two layman idiots keep quoting rules that do not apply to this illegal move and they are saying Wendlestat said its legal and it makes you two look stupid. So you may want to chime in on this instead of having an office jockey send out emails representing you."
LMAO ... Now I TOTALLY agree w/ U. Your kid is WAY more coordinated than ALL MLB pitchers. LMAO. The reason I dont want to call any "national office" is no dumbass office jockey is going to know the game ...period. Hell, baseball is king here in FL & the FHSAA screws up about a half dozen questions every yr on the test.
I know pro umpires, minor and pro, what am I going to say ... "so&so said ...?" & you still wont believe it & still quote some rule that doesn't even apply.
Not a balk but be careful some umpires dont know what they are doing
1KryptoniK1 3 months ago
ok the more i look at this video the more i see it the more i see no balk.
guitarplaya2007 7 months ago
im a pitcher myself to pick off to first just like u did has to be done in a quick movement but with your right foot going to third first then throwing to first base..
jama1120 7 months ago
@jama1120 What you describe is called a jab step. It is legal but so is the move in the video if done correctly. The foot doesn't have to go to 3B first. Many players/coaches/fans, and sadly umpires, don't know this b/c they don't bother to actually read the rule book or get interpretation umpire manuals to learn the rules.
This isn't a balk but it isn't recommended. As the umpire who called it a balk proved, not all umpires know the rules of the game they are calling.
WTHRUSmoking 7 months ago
Does no one read previous replies or the rule book? This is not a balk for the shoulder turn or for not stepping off the rubber.
Read before posting, especially the rule book.
WTHRUSmoking 7 months ago
you can't move your left foot if your a righty before your righy foot if you do that it's a balk
TheRumshaker1 7 months ago
balk moved his left foot first
TheRumshaker1 7 months ago
@TheRumshaker1 Prove it. Show the rule that says it. Get an interpretations manual or Jim Evans Balk Video and show where this is described as a balk. Don't waste your time b/c you won't find it b/c you are wrong.
WTHRUSmoking 7 months ago
to tell the truth this is a balk you have to step completely off the mound while picking off to any base...
jama1120 7 months ago
@jama1120
Who/what taught you this?
SDSUChemTA 7 months ago
SDSUChemTA has the a great answer. Seriously, read the rule book, attend an umpiring clinic held by a legitimate training company or organization, and don't rely on urban legend or 'life experiences' indicating the legality of certain actions in the game.
kpridgen88 7 months ago
BALK!
runner gets second base
56ninjaguy 7 months ago
you have to move your back foot off the rubber thats a balk pal
Mattraps 8 months ago
No. I've correctly not called this a balk in countless 90' diamond games this year, and nobody has ever complained or protested.
There is NOTHING in the rulebook that says a pitcher must step off for a pick off! Learn the rules from this book, not from your life experiences.
SDSUChemTA 8 months ago
Man, does no one actually read the rule book? It is available online for those who THINK they have a balk here for not stepping off the rubber. Look at rule 8.05 and see where it says the pitcher has to step off first.
I'll save you the trouble. It DOESN'T.
WTHRUSmoking 8 months ago
obviously its a balk because you didnt step off the mound you gotta take a stepp off before you go to pick off someone as soon as your right foot leaves the front of the rubber your free to pick off at any given base
xkoNviikTeD 8 months ago
balk
MrOriginalzx 8 months ago
the first one was a balk he didnt step off
SammyandJack123ify 8 months ago
But all this is not a balk, my dad is a college umpire and he just told me about this.
ilovelloydlee 8 months ago
Also right before he pick's he flex's both knees which is also a balk.
ilovelloydlee 8 months ago
Any kind of illegal deception too a runner will be a balk. If the point of this move is too be quicker than a spin move then I'm not sure about it, but if it too deceive the runner by making him think as the pitcher front leg moves that he is going home to the plte then it can be a balk by deception.
ilovelloydlee 8 months ago
Secondly....Same rule comment for 8.05 states "With a runner on first base the pitcher may make a COMPLETE TURN, without hesitating toward first, and throw to second. This is not to be considered as throwing to an unoccupied base."
This says that he can make the move to first and throw to second. However the point is that it clearly describes the move to first as a "complete turn". In this video he only turn his shoulders....therefore it creates doubt in the umpire....result....BALK.
TheJcperla 8 months ago
@TheJcperla Thanks for the posts. However, how can you deceive if you have no intention on not throwing the ball to first? He is turning and throwing. Period. He is not "breaking" any rule - like making the runner think he is throwing home. Also, he is not breaking any rule that says he has to step off. Every rule book says the pitcher "while in the set position, can pick to ANY base". If you are in the "SET POSITION" you are engaged with the mound. Also, the second post doesn't apply.
bocolvin 8 months ago
@bocolvin The more I look at the video I totally see what you are saying. However I would question why anyone would want to put so much in the officials hands when the rule book clearly also allows him to think about the pitcher's intent when it appears questionable. At the end of the day what we think doesn't apply when the ump makes the call. I would hate to lose a championship game on a call like this. Perhaps that is why the PROs wouldn't dream of using it and leaving it to the ump.
TheJcperla 8 months ago
@bocolvin also on a non related point, I just witnessed a severe knee injury (tore ligament) when a player attempted a similar move (not the pitcher though). From an anatomy standpoint, there is a lot of twisting motion on the pivot knee, especially when not moving the heal. I will agree with you that if this was called a balk I would argue it because he is stepping to first. However if there is increased risk of knee injury because of the torque being applied the "balk" call is insignificant!
TheJcperla 8 months ago
@TheJcperla The main point is a kid was called for a balk because he did this move in a game. the umpire said "by rule, he has to come off the rubber to pick to first"... that is when this all started. I'm not arguing the best move and it's consequences, I am arguing this move is NOT breaking any rules. Coaches normally teach pitchers to step off or the spin move, all the while coaches are teaching kids to "watch the heel of the pitcher" and these moves have been misconstrued as RULES
bocolvin 8 months ago
By no means do I consider myself an expert and I may be wrong, but based on the comment for rule 8.05 "Umpires should bear in mind that the purpose of the balk rule is to prevent the pitcher from deliberately deceiving the runner. If there is doubt in the umpire's mind, the "intent" of the pitcher should govern.
Based on that it's clear the intent is to "fool" the runner. Therefore I would see this called a balk more often than not.
TheJcperla 8 months ago
@TheJcperla That comment is for when a move is questionable of being a balk based on the clearly defined 13 possible balks outlined in 8.05. That comment is the most dangerous statement in the book and should be removed. This move does not violate any of the 13 so it is completely legal. ALL good pickoff attempts are meant to "fool" the runner. Do not use that statement when considering if it is a balk. Use the 13 combined with that comment for questionable ones.
Not a balk here.
WTHRUSmoking 8 months ago
@WTHRUSmoking What is being missed here is that if this move is so questionable and from reading this post it is clear that there is much debate about whether it is or not. That being the case it almost automatically ends up in the quesitonable area to begin with.
It is a very interesting move that does appear to break the rules unless you break it down in which it "technically" doesn't. Therefore that is the reason for the "intent" comment.
TheJcperla 8 months ago
@TheJcperla Exactly.
WTHRUSmoking 8 months ago
@WTHRUSmoking This applies to all sports, rules are never 100% perfect which is why they are modified all the time. Intent is there just like in basketball when trying to determine if a foul is flagrant or not. It is the human element to officiating that makes it difficult and to which teams and players try to push the limits.
I would guess that is why this is not a PRO move...too much is put in the officials eye and you don't want them questioning your "intent"....thus they leave the rubber.
TheJcperla 8 months ago
2. he makes the turn to 1, if u do that u have to throw, otherwise its a balk
TheEilering 8 months ago
@TheEilering Yeah, but this is a simulation. There is no first baseman unless you count the truck or if there is a vehicle in front of it in the driveway.
WTHRUSmoking 8 months ago
1. he doesnt move his back foot.
TheEilering 8 months ago
@TheEilering Doesn't have to.
WTHRUSmoking 8 months ago
its a balk you have to move your back foot off the rubber
motoxrider115 9 months ago
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WTHRUSmoking 9 months ago
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@motoxrider115 Another wrong answer. No rule says that. For most moves, it is just physics that causes the release. But, no rule says the back foot has to come off first.
WTHRUSmoking 9 months ago
@motoxrider115 ur foot doesnt have to be behind the rubber, although it cant still be in front of the rubber. the quickest pickoff move for me as a righthander is sliding my back foot back versus stepping behind the mound. ive thrown a lot of guys out doing it
AppleHacks11 9 months ago
@AppleHacks11 the second time he did it he balked he didnt move his back foot . as long as he moves his back foot it isnt a balk
motoxrider115 9 months ago
@motoxrider115 That's the point. He doesn't have to move his back foot when making the pickoff move. NO rule says the pivot foot has to move at all. I can provide a link to the rule book if you are willing to actually read it and see there is no rule stating anything about the pivot foot having to release the rubber before a pickoff move is made.
WTHRUSmoking 8 months ago
@AppleHacks11 Wrong. Pivot foot can still be in front of the rubber. Ever heard of a jump turn or jab step. I am RH as well and did the jump turn when I pitched. It is much quicker than moving your pivot foot back. Learn those 2 moves. Neither one puts the pivot foot behind the rubber and doesn't need it to move back first.
WTHRUSmoking 8 months ago
If you pivot on the rubber, you have to make the throw to first base. You don't have to make the throw at any other bases
mikryan123 9 months ago
A pitcher does NOT have to step off the rubber Once a pitcher steps of the rubber he is no longer the pitcher he is an infielder and may do what he pleases pretty much
A)the pitcher, while touching the plate, makes any motion naturally associated with the pitch and fails to make such delivery.
C) the pitcher, while touching the plate , fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base.
most coaches teach to step off because it is at the umpires discretion
gspmarine 9 months ago
bocolvin are you still at it with this video. Heres why it is a balk ... because if you use this move in a game the umpire will call it a balk.
picklehiesner 9 months ago
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the step off has to happen for a right handed pitcher throwing to first unless there is a man on third and you attempt the weak fake to third throw to first move. the pitcher has to come to a set position then make his move to the plate or if attempting a pick off. there is also the rule that if your lead pitching leg crosses your post leg then the pitcher must throw home. or if the pitcher starts his wind up or stretch and his leg motions towards home, then he has to go to home.
bigslugg79 9 months ago
the step off has to happen for a right handed pitcher throwing to first unless there is a man on third and you attempt the weak fake to third throw to first move. the pitcher has to come to a set position then make his move to the plate or if attempting a pick off. there is also the rule that if your lead pitching leg crosses your post leg then the pitcher must throw home. or if the pitcher starts his wind up or stretch and his leg motions towards home, then he has to go to home.
bigslugg79 9 months ago
@bigslugg79 You are correct on two of the three scenarios per the rule books. I looked in the rule book again and can't fing the RULE that says a RHP has to step off the mound when picking to first. A RHP can pick to any base when in the set position, per the rule book, as long as he steps directly toward the base he is picking to.
bocolvin 9 months ago
@bigslugg79 He does not have to step off before making a pick off attempt.
His foot has to go behind the back edge of the rubber, not his post leg before being committed to going to HP. It has to be the foot b/c the knee can go behind the rubber and the pitcher can still do a pick off to 1B/3B.
And, he does not have to come set to do a pick off, only when throwing a pitch.
Most of this post is incorrect.
WTHRUSmoking 9 months ago
you can do a move like that.. but you have to hop .. if you put leg behind mound you do not have to throw if you jump in front you MUST trhow
najjiu 9 months ago
according to rule 8.01c, the pitcher does not need t o step off the mound. that is a common misconception.
mothahen123 9 months ago
Just b/c the pros don't do something does not mean it is illegal. It just means they stick with the basic moves and don't actually want to exploit as much as they are allowed to.
80% of the games are played with 20% of the rules.
WTHRUSmoking 9 months ago
Though, it isn't recommended to do this b/c you are relying on so many to actually take the time to learn, interpret, get umpire manuals, and actually read the rules before seeing a move like this. Don't count on it as you can see by so many saying it is a balk for something which it is not.
WTHRUSmoking 9 months ago
@WTHRUSmoking Any umpire that has to get a "manual" and read the rules for any scenario obviously hasn't been trained well enough. No lie, I have heard "Even though its legal, you shouldn't do it because our umpires haven't been trained to deal with that situation." Its laziness on the part of the officials. If an umpire doesn't have the rulebook committed to memory, or carry a copy on him during games, sack his ass because he is not doing his job.
avsfan331940 9 months ago
@avsfan331940 You are joking right. No umpire worth anything carries a rule book during the game. And, even the best trained ones (any who have been to pro school) have to read the manuals. Why? They change each year with new rules and interpretations. A well trained umpire knows this. You do not apparently.
Get a manual or 2. You might learn something before spouting ignorance on the internet for all to see.
WTHRUSmoking 9 months ago
Lifting the foot, in and of itself, does not constitute a step. Forget about the "deceiving a runner" part in the book. That is for something else which so many don't understand or realize. For what this video is trying to prove, is not a balk. 8.05(c) does not apply until the actual step is made. Then, where that step goes is what counts. Also, the comment is about when the pitcher doesn't lift his foot at all. There is no rule which says a pitcher has to disengage before a pick off.
WTHRUSmoking 9 months ago
@bocolvin "8.05 If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when—
...
(c) The pitcher, while touching his plate, fails to step directly toward a base before
throwing to that base;
Rule 8.05(c) Comment: Requires the pitcher, while touching his plate, to step directly toward a
base before throwing to that base. If a pitcher turns or spins off of his free foot without actually stepping
or if he turns his body and throws before stepping, it is a balk."
(from the official rulebook)
longlandje6 9 months ago
i dont see any part of 1st base being a toward movement to any RH pitcher. so he cant be stepping towards it.
johnandammonoutdoors 9 months ago
@johnandammonoutdoors I can turn and step directly to first base just like I can turn and step directly toward second base. Actually, anybody can turn and step directly toward first and second base. The rule book says you can pick to any base while in the set position as long as you gain distance and direction. The kid in this video is turning and stepping directly toward first base.
bocolvin 9 months ago
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if he wants to throw to first his back heel has to come up before he can move his front foot over
DuxLongboard 9 months ago
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DuxLongboard 9 months ago
Balk. Can not bend the knee if you going to throw to a base. You are not going to find the balk rules spelled out. But it is common knowledge for umpires that you can not ben the back knee and throw to a base.
ILOVEUMPS 10 months ago
thats a MEAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN balkkkk dangggg. step off with right
snbptrsn 10 months ago
it's a balk because his front leg was the first leg to move. his leg on the rubber has to move first for it not to be a balk. with his front leg moving first, in the judgment of the umpire he is deceiving the runner
Nextstar33 10 months ago
@Nextstar33 Thank you. Finally someone who knows what they are talking about. You do not have to step off the rubber first as long as you throw throw the ball to first when you do not step off first. If you step off first then you do not have to throw the ball.
jarge51 10 months ago
@Nextstar33 I just looked in the rule book again and can't see anything that says a pitcher (RHP or LHP) has to move his foot off the mound when picking to any base. So, how can the pitcher be deceiving the runner when he is basically turning and throwing without any hesitation.. In other words, he is picking to first so you need to get back to the base... Period! there is no deceipt there....
bocolvin 9 months ago
@bocolvin even though it's not in the rule book, it's not good to teach kids bad habits. It's a rule everywhere else. Working on geting of the mound quick and getting your shoulders turned toward first base will make him more successful.
PixelCounters 9 months ago
@PixelCounters I'm not debating pick off moves here, as to each his own. I agree with getting off the mound quickly. There is NOT ONE RULE BOOK that says you have to step off the mound to pick to any base.
bocolvin 9 months ago
@Nextstar33 The rule is that the pitcher has to step toward the base with his non-pivot foot, in this case his left foot. He does not have to disengage the rubber with his pivot or left foot. The only thing is that he may not feint to first if he does not disengage.
CousinItt001 8 months ago
Thats a HUGE BALK
hammertimecolts 10 months ago
it is a balk his foot never left the mound when he moved towards 1st base
HopStudios 10 months ago
see Jim Booth video Baseball Pitcher pitching rules
ronrex3 10 months ago
By the rules, it is not a balk.
ronrex3 10 months ago
Definately a balk. His foot needs to disengage the rubber before he can turn
PRHSBaseball11 10 months ago
This is most certainly a balk.
MegaCalvinHobbes 10 months ago
its a balk. do it when you are going up from the position from being set. then its not a balk.
Zapodo14 10 months ago
ok obviously it isnt a balk. it is only a balk if you dont throw the ball to first. if you step off the mound you dont have to throw it but if you dont, then u have to.
weinerman64 10 months ago
Pretty good video. After I saw the very first "pick off" I said balk. Then after watching the last couple it is NOT a balk. The pitcher does NOT have to disengage the rubber he only has to step to first base. Although I do think that if done improperly or too quickly your pitcher does run the risk of a knee injury to include a tear of the meniscus, ACL, or MCL.
mattmahl 10 months ago
he even says "dont move your heel"...that what you have to do as a right handed pitcher to go to first is move your heel!
farmerduo 10 months ago
Baseball basic 101...OBVIOUS balk...a right handed pitcher must step off the rubber with his back foot before throwing to first base. Some local youth programs will just let the kids play without calling and some inexperienced umpires simply dont know the rules. Some of the other posts suggesting that this move is legal dont know what they're talking about.
ncpete45 11 months ago
@ncpete45 It looks like you are another one of those that don't know what they are talking about. Back it up with the rule book and number. thanks
bocolvin 11 months ago
@bocolvin To you Bo and all these so called "hi level coaches" the rule book states that a bulk ,by definition, is when" a pitcher intentionally deceives a baserunner" . It also states that a pitcher, who is set on the mound, must step directly at an occupied base in attempting a pick off ..its physically impossible for a right handed pitcher, who is set on the mound to step directly towards first base. Think what you want! Keep teaching your pitchers this move..good luck with that on the field!
ncpete45 11 months ago
@ncpete45 WRONG. As long as you don't step toward any other base before you step toward first, you are stepping directly toward first base. It's not different than a RHP or LHP stepping directly toward second for a pickoff as they have to move their bodyhips to step toward second.
bocolvin 10 months ago
@bocolvin you can step towards any base, just not home....say you step off to throw towards third, then throw to 1st...you are good...pointless, but you can do that.
ecuboy9284 10 months ago
Nope...bocolvin is correct....he did not disengage from the rubber...BALK!
ILovePeanutRose 10 months ago
@bocolvin hahaa this is amusing... First off, you're the one that's WRONG, so stop being so close-minded and just listen to the 100's of people telling you it's a balk. You say that he is not making any move to the plate, but in reality, the simple lifting of the front foot on a RHP is considered a move towards home.
256kibz 9 months ago
@bocolvin Let me put it this way, doing it this way would clearly be a quicker move to first, right? And I'm sure big league pitchers want to make their move as quick as they can, right? So why don't you find me a video of a Major League RHP using this move without having a balk called on him... Good luck.
256kibz 9 months ago
@256kibz I will find your video for you AFTER you show me in the rule book anything that says it is a RULE for a RHP to step off the mound before picking to first. I have had this video reviewed by Major League umpires and they said "NO BALK". If a pitcher in a major league doesn't use this move, or any move, they don't delete from the rule book.
bocolvin 9 months ago
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Baseball basic...Obvious balk...a right handed pitcher must step off the rubber with his back foot before throwing to first base
ncpete45 11 months ago
Baseball basic...Obvious balk...a right handed pitcher must step off the mound with his back foot before throwing to first base
ncpete45 11 months ago
balk
Eduar21MLB 11 months ago
ACTUALLY IT IS NOT A BALK. I did this throughout high school, and worked everytime.as long as your left foot goes toward first and not home it is legal!! some umps will call it that are inexperienced. i was taught by pro pitcher orel hershiser from the dodgers
jt041406 11 months ago
ACTUALLY IT IS NOT A BALK. I did this throughout high school, and worked everytime.as long as your left foot goes toward first and not home it is legal!! some umps will call it that are inexperienced. i was taught by pro pitcher oell hershiser from the dodgers
jt041406 11 months ago
bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbaaaaaalllllllllllkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
asacks954 11 months ago
Balk. You have to step off of the rubber in some way for right handed pitchers.
aubrandon 11 months ago
@aubrandon Buuuuuuuulllllllll get a rule book
RDLong105 3 months ago
@RDLong105 I have one. This is a balk without disengaging the back foot from the rubber first or making a move to third first. That is a balk at any level of play.
aubrandon 3 months ago
BALK!!!
you have to pick up your heel or move your back leg before you can move the first in the direction to pick off the runner at first. if you move your back leg first and go home to pitch, the ump will either not notice or call a balk.
31Topper 1 year ago
If it's not a balk, it's a horrible pick off move. Either way, no one is going to use it.
benwfish 1 year ago
BALK. you must step your foot off the mound to throw acros your bodyy
1xXxXxSUPERMANxXxXx1 1 year ago
to all the people saying this isn't a balk, if this move is legal why dont you see pitchers at the professional level using it? if you can find me a video of any pitcher in the MLB that has ever used this move and it is not called a balk please send it to me, but untill then its an illegal move in my view
The22Fresh 1 year ago
8.05c "It is a balk when ... The pitcher, while touching his plate, fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base"
This will always remain a question for the umpire in-game. The movement in question is whether he has stepped "DIRECTLY" toward first. His moves look mostly good to me, the last one was the clearest: not a balk.
keithr1985 1 year ago
Hi,
Just this past month I completed the Harry Wendelstedt Umpire School and yes, I am one of the 23 out of 162 that did move on. That move is not a balk as long as the pitcher does not break his knee, nor can he show any movement associated with his pitch. As long as he steps directly to and throws to first he is fine in accordance to the rules. Hope this helps.
fpierson1 1 year ago
this is for sure a balk. as a RHP picking off you have to move your back foot behind the rubber then throw to 1st base. but for a pick off to second base you dont have to remove your foot from the rubber, you can do the spin move, and you dont have to remove your foot from the rubber if you are picking off to third base either.
The22Fresh 1 year ago
@The22Fresh said "this is for sure a balk. as a RHP picking off you have to move your back foot behind the rubber then throw to 1st base. but for a pick off to second base you dont have to remove your foot from the rubber, you can do the spin move, and you dont have to remove your foot from the rubber if you are picking off to third base either"
Please show us in the rulebook where it says RHP must disengage before throwing to 1B.
SDSUChemTA 1 year ago
Balk
crazystein13 1 year ago
You can not go across your body like that, you must either step off the mound or be left handed. going across your body like that is making motion towards the plate, which is a balk.
agentsmith10100 1 year ago
@agentsmith10100 .. I just looked in the rule book and couldn't find that rule. What about the Spin move by a pitcher picking to second? Right or Left handed he is going in a circle across his body to throw to second. That is the Same scenario you are saying is a pitching motion...coming across his body.
bocolvin 1 year ago
Yes but for spin move to be legal a clear and direct step towards the occupied base is required....The point is not to deceive the runners to batters with a move but to beat them with play.
ILovePeanutRose 10 months ago
@bocolvin I want to encourage you to keep educating the large number of coaches who think they know the rules. Have you noticed the "Baseball Pitcher pitching rules" video which supports the "it's not a balk" interpretation"?
ronrex3 10 months ago
@bocolvin .. on the spin move to second, the only reason he can go to second is because his free foot crosses the rubber, the pick off move in the video is a balk because he doenst step directly toward 1st, he "swings" his foot, tust me i just looked it up in the rule book, 8.05 a, b, and c
jbenef 10 months ago
As long as he completes the throw, this is not a balk.
lambclan52 1 year ago
Anyway, back to the rules: A pitcher's "natural pitching motion" isn't the same as "stepping towards the bag to throw." If you think the pitcher's step looks like he's pitching, then sure, call it a balk, and that's exactly what happened to Buehrle. But according to the rules, all pitchers are allowed to step to a bag and throw. You can clearly see in the above video that he steps towards 1B, which is legal. 8.01b and c. Read the book!
SDSUChemTA 1 year ago
Comment removed
SDSUChemTA 1 year ago
if this is such a great move& is legal, then MLB RHPs would use it constantly& they dont. U have no proof or vids. all u guys do good is screwing up the rules interpretations.My proof is neither of u can produce a video of a RHP doing this move,because every MLB knows it is a balk because they HAVE BASEBALL KNOWLEDGE, which niether of you have.I have given you names of MANY pros I know personally & professionally. Niether of you have 1/100th of my baseball knowledge or experience. 8.05a
3018276800 1 year ago
@3018276800
Again, the "number of online videos" doesn't determine if a move is legal; the RULEBOOK does (8.01b and c.). Do you see anybody swing the bat holding it with just one hand? No, but it's still legal according the rulebook.
SDSUChemTA 1 year ago
@SDSUChemTA
Oh, and I love how you constantly quote 8.01c, but conviently forget the beginning of the rule ... "until his natural pitching motion commits him to the pitch."
Seriously, read what you want to read ... believe what you want to believe.
IGNORANCE IS BLISS, EH?
3018276800 1 year ago
MLB Rules:
8.01 b: From such Set Position he may deliver the ball to the batter, throw to a base or step backward off the pitcher’s plate with his pivot foot.
8.01 c: At any time during the pitcher’s preliminary movements and until his natural pitching motion commits him to the pitch, he may throw to any base provided he steps directly toward such base before making the throw.
Note that there is NO obligation to step off going to first base, or exceptions for RHP/LHP. Not a balk!
SDSUChemTA 1 year ago
@SDSUChemTA Well said SDSU.. I don't see anything that says any pitcher whether LHP or RHP has to step off to pick to first. They only have to "step directly toward such base before making the throw".. Unless the rules between the lines say different and I can't see those.
Thanks for the post....
bocolvin 1 year ago
@bocolvin
I love how you told me you got emails from wendlestadt and evans ... yet when I went to evans it said and I quote... "Please Do Not ask personal questions or questions about rules or situations because you will not receive an answer."
you are so full of crap. I'd take a video at my state clinic next month, which has always had a MLB umpire present, but it would be ridiculously embarrassing to ask a question that stupid.
3018276800 1 year ago
@3018276800 I offered to forward you the email he sent me. I don't see any reason you can't email him either........or anyone else you feel would have the correct answer because your experience and who you know doesn't mean you wrote the rules.
bocolvin 1 year ago
@3018276800 From Wendelsteldt below:
Bo,
Thank you for your question. We looked over the video on YouTube and see
no problems or balks. The move that is made in the pick-off to first base
is completely legal. We hope that this helps you in your ruling.
Sincerely,
Hunter Wendelstedt
bocolvin 1 year ago
@bocolvin now I beleive you ... WOW an email from HUNTER ... RIIIIIGHT... lmao. First of all, Hunter sucks & doesnt know jack about the game. He got into the show riding his dad's name & coat tails. He did not play baseball & is the worst rated umpire in MLB. Do you remember the playoff game last year where he was tremendously inconsistent & missed like 40-50 pitches? It was a scene. I dont believe u or this "email" for one sec, but I do believe Hunter sucks enough to not know the rules.
3018276800 1 year ago
@3018276800 Bo,
That move is legal because he steps toward firstbase. I would work with him on a quick jump turn, to get the ball to firstbase as quickly as possible.
Rock Chalk,
Ritch Price
Head Baseball Coach
rprice@ku.edu
bocolvin 1 year ago
@3018276800 > Bo:
>
> In the video you sent me I do not see where the player is committing a
> balk.
>
> Steven M. Tellefsen President/CEO Babe Ruth League, Inc.
bocolvin 1 year ago
@3018276800 We reviewed this tape last year. The pitcher does not appear to be balking. The main point that must be reviewed is did the pitcher go towards home. If so a then it is a balk. Again based on this tape it does not appear from the angle given the pitcher is coming home and thus not a balk.
Thanks
Rob
Rob Connor
National Commissioner
Babe Ruth League, Inc.
(w) 609-695-1434
(c) 609-915-5919
bocolvin 1 year ago
Hi Bo,
The video you submitted of the young man in the blue jacket illustrates a perfectly legal move to first base. Anyone who says that move is illegal is either uninformed or not using the Official Baseball Rules as the source for their interpretation.
Naturally, the pitcher can step back off the rubber with his pivot foot and throw to first or choose not to. Once he has legally disengaged, he can basically do anything he wants to.
I hope this helps.
Jim
Jim Evans Academy
bocolvin 1 year ago
Hi Bo,
This video shows how amatuers with no knowledge of the game can misinterpret the rules. Anyone that says this move is legal is either uninformed or not interpreting rule 8.05a with its proper intent.
Naturally I will fill them in when I see them ... if they are fortunate enough to make it to me.
I hope this helps.
God
Holy Academy
3018276800 1 year ago
@3018276800 LOL... the truth comes out.
bocolvin 1 year ago
@3018276800 Since all the people listed in the emails I posted say "no balk".. can you please explain why it is a balk in your mind? Start by explaining how a RHP picking to first is ANY different in the start of the picking move for this base, as all the moves except for the hop step start out the same: With the lifting of the free foot. This should be good........
bocolvin 1 year ago
@3018276800
Bo:
That is a legal pickoff move.
Thank you,
Jason Blackburn
Mid-American Umpire Clinic
bocolvin 1 year ago
@SDSUChemTA again 8.05a get a clue. I find this whole conversation exchange frustrating & completely ignorant. I give you the rule that applies to this balk move, yet u 2 still stick to your guns. In spite of the fact, I ump some proextended spring training, D1& other NCAA, FHSAA, over 400+gms a yr(>2K in last5yrs),played D1, coached D1, rub elbows w/proumps& players,& basically been in the gm my whole life while bocolvin coached kids for 20yrs. WOW! this is sounding more&more stupid every sec.
3018276800 1 year ago
@3018276800
I love this conversation exchange because it makes you look stupid and 10 years old. It's a disgrace to other umpires that you talk and argue like a child, so that's why I don't believe anything you say. So just say "Ok ok I'm just joking, I'm not really an umpire, I just like to argue like a woman!" and you'll be ok.
SDSUChemTA 1 year ago
@SDSUChemTA
FYI, the reason my language is chopped up & I use "u" instead of "you" is due to the character limits placed on responses here on youtube. I have no choice but to talk like that. However, I do umpire & quite a bit at a level you can only pay to get in & see.
LMAO- U guys have this AWESOME LEGAL MOVE that would pick off baserunners left&right, yet no one at the highest levels of the game uses it, EVER ... & that doesnt jump out at you? that's simply the dumbest thing ever.
3018276800 1 year ago
@3018276800 I am really glad you like the move. A true competitor always looks for the edge.
Thanks
Bo
bocolvin 1 year ago
@3018276800 Bo,
I find nothing wrong with this move. You do not have to step off to pick to first.
Brent Kemnitz
WSU Pitching Coach
bocolvin 1 year ago
@3018276800
Lastly, the rule book. THERE IS NOTHING IN THE RULE BOOK THAT SAYS YOU HAVE TO DISENGAGE THE RUBBER WHEN PICKING TO ANY BASE. You can't simulate a pitch for the RHP only when picking to first and not the other bases, as long as there is not motion TOWARDS HOME you are not intentionally deceiving the runner.
bocolvin 1 year ago
@3018276800 This is my last reply to you. EVERY pickoff move while engaged with the rubber starts with the lifting of the free foot for a RHP and LHP. The RHP picking to first in no exception. Again, this is my whole point to this video and had more umpire schools besides Wendelsteldt say NO BALK. Good luck in your umpiring and feel free to use this video for any future discussions in your quest to call the right game.
bocolvin 1 year ago
considerng wendlestat is considered to be the worst umpire in the pros, I wouldn't take his word as gospel. That is one thing many people struggle with ... that just because someone is in the "show" ... players or umps ... doesnt mean they know what they are doing. Understand almost 100% of pro umpires never played higher than HS baseball. Because pro pitchers never do this move, the dumbass umps, like harry wendlestat, would never have to make that call. I assure you it is a balk...
3018276800 1 year ago
@3018276800 Well, since they are all wrong, I guess you win. All coaches teach the watching of the heel. Not just the big leagues. That is why I have seen a lot of people picked off at first. This move made the runner watch the pitchers "intent" as the rule books intended. If the pitcher motions toward home.. You run. If the turned to the base. ... you get back. As with anything, you have to back your answers with the RULE BOOK. The Rule Book is what everyone looks at to be right.
bocolvin 1 year ago
Did I leave off the MLB Umpire website to? They said no balk also. Remember, follow the RULE BOOK. Don't read between the lines to back up your claim. Did I mention the Babe Ruth Rules Committe? They said no balk also. Did I mention the olympic umpires at Baseballexcellence com? They said no balk also. Everyone I have listed has seen this Video and said NO BALK> I just read your new yahoo site again and it isn't goin well in your favor.......
bocolvin 1 year ago
what is your experience?
Also, I know Luis Tiant & Adam Wainwright on a personal level. Tiant was the coach at SCAD when I played a few yrs in Sav & I actually played with his son Luis Jr. I caught Adam's older brother, Trey, in HS (Glynn Academy in Brunswick,GA) & tried to use my relationship w/ him to recruit him, which was useless because he was a stud 1st rounder. One has won a Cy Young and the other is pretty damn close to winning one ... & they'd laugh their asses off at this.
3018276800 1 year ago
@3018276800 I have played and coached baseball for over 20 years. I had been taught and used this move as a pitcher to have it never called a BALK. I started coaching and taught this move to players and had it called a balk by an umpire that had never played but was taking advice from someone that played for a coach that taught him to disengage. He was "told" it was a rule but never could find out how it was a rule. That is when I started researching this to only find out people think
bocolvin 1 year ago
@bocolvin its a rule for "ONE" reason. That reason is the picking up of the free foot. They claim that is the "start" of the pitch to the plate. Tell me how that can be the start of a pitch for a RHP picking to first only....?? Even when the LHP picks his free foot up he is allowed to go to first. Hmmmmm.. wait a minute, he picked up his free foot so isn't he starting his delivery to the plate??? Let's read the rule book. It doesn't say a thing about any of this nonsense. It only talk
bocolvin 1 year ago
@bocolvin about the intention of the pitcher to deliver a pitch to the plate. It's BLACK and WHITE.. There is not any "Deception" in this move. The pitcher is turning and throwing to first. PERIOD. There is no intention to the plate at all. Stepping off the rubber to pick to first is nothing more than a "MOVE". It is not a rule!! The only time a pitchers natural motion is to the plate is when he starts to deliver "TO THE PLATE". IF he used this move and went to the plate first..balk!
bocolvin 1 year ago
@bocolvin
I suggest you never umpire high level ball ... it would be a disaster and quite a show if you let a play like that go against any of the ex-pros I mentioned earlier ... especially someone like Reggie or Chet. You do understand pros and colleges teach baserunners to key on the left leg of a RHP when on 1B dont U? Your move would be lethal and players like Crawford would be picked off constantly with your move if it were legal ... that is all the proof you should need.
3018276800 1 year ago
@bocolvin
No high level ball then.
Look this story comes to mind:
I ask my wife "why did u gut the ends off the roast?"
She said "my mother did it"
I asked her mother "why did you cut the ends off the roast?"
she said "because my mother did it"
THen I asked my great grandmother in-law ... "why did you cut the ends off the roast?
she said "because it wouldn't fit into my pan"
Point of the story...just because u were taught it & u haven't been caught ...doesnt mean its legal.
3018276800 1 year ago
@3018276800 I see your point here. But, when everyone referenced the rule book, the one about stepping off wasn't there. The point.. You can't read between the lines and make up rules.
bocolvin 1 year ago
@bocolvin
Exactly. You can't make up rules and declare something illegal just because you never see it. This is why everybody needs to simply read the rule book.
SDSUChemTA 1 year ago
@bocolvin I agree the rule book is filled with numerous grey areas. It takes decades of intense field work, playing, umping, & coaching, to get an expert view on these grey areas- then something is still bound to surprise U. BTW the rules actually state I can read between the lines:
pro rule 9.01c "Each umpire has authority to rule on any point not specifically covered in these
rules."
SDSU-still seeing the grey he wants 2- c'mon man, U used a LHP to validate ur pt 4 cryin out loud!
3018276800 1 year ago
@3018276800 Good point on the umpire being able to call things not specifically covered. I have read that. But, that makes it hard to play a consistant game from one town to the next. That's why it's critical to specify the rule in the rule book exactly as it should be. If it said, " the RHP must disengage the rubber when picking to first" there would be no grey area. All umpires should point to something in the rule book when they make a call to back up their call. They can't point here.
bocolvin 1 year ago
@3018276800
I don't see how 9.01c allows one to "read between the lines." The rules are written in the book, and one can't go making up new rules that go against what's already printed there. Now, when a distant nuke causes the baseball to suddenly disintegrate in the middle of a pitch, then use 9.01c.
SDSUChemTA 1 year ago
@3018276800 ALSO, as SDSU is saying, the rule book doesn't say that a LHP can doing something a RHP can't. The same rules applie to all pitchers. Plus, if it isn't in the rule book how can an umpire call something that isn't there?
bocolvin 1 year ago
@bocolvin exactly pitchers are held to the same standards Right or Left .... Consequently, a LHP can't do the same move in the video to 3B. Just the way it is.
3018276800 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@3018276800
You said: "Consequently, a LHP can't do the same move in the video to 3B. Just the way it is."
Uh no. All pitchers, whether RH or LH, can step and throw to ANY base, according to Rules 8.01 b and c. Last I checked, 3B falls under this definition.
SDSUChemTA 1 year ago
@SDSUChemTA Again, I asked u to provide video evidence of this move & u show me a LHP, which is NOT this move. I challenge u to find a MLB RHP going to 1B like the video or any MLB LHP going to 3B like the video did straight from the rubber. Again, this has nothing to do w/ the rules u r quoting. The violation has 2 do w/ rule8.05a. Its not my fault the pro rules dont list every "motion naturally associated with
his pitch" so u can more easily grasp the concept. Good luck finding a video!
3018276800 1 year ago
@3018276800
You're not supposed to call a game based on "how many videos a move has" evidence. Rules 8.01b and c say ANY pitcher can STEP AND THROW towards ANY base. Read the rulebook.
SDSUChemTA 1 year ago
@SDSUChemTA Good Point!!! Also, if a pitcher happens to disengage the rubber, he immediately becomes an infielder. So, if he overthrows first and the ball goes out of play, it will be a 2 base error instead of 1 . So, the move in my video is doing a few good things. First, he isn't breaking any rules. Second, he is going to catch all the people that are taught to "watch the heel" totally flat footed. This is a GOOD MOVE that will give a pitcher an edge.
bocolvin 1 year ago
@SDSUChemTA&bocolvin. I do read the rulebooks & apparently Im the only 1 of us 3 that can interpret it.
Again, I do not dispute any of your rule citings, just your interpretation of those rules. Again, rule8.05a sums it up & u either dont have the baseball knowledge or the ability 2 listen 2 understand why that move is a balkmove.
Bocolvin even admits itsa balkmove in hislast response. MLBplayers R taught 2 "watch the heel"-so why dont MLB pitchers use this move? simple answer:its a balk
3018276800 1 year ago
What is there to interpet? The rule is black and white when it says a pitcher may throw to ANY base from the set position while engaged with the mound. You can only teach "watching the heel" because it is COMMON for coaches to teach pitchers to lift their heel and spin on their toes with the mound foot. This is WHY this MOVE has been misconstrued with being a RULE when it's NOT. I have coached and been around coaches that taught that move but only for acheiving a coordinated turn.
bocolvin 1 year ago
@3018276800 PLUS, not all kids can do the move in the video. It is an awkward move and takes good coordination. If you are really an umpire, I would challenge you to submit to your appeal committee for an official ruling like a protest in a game. Don't just gather your local umpires, go directly to the LEAGUES NATIONAL office for an official ruling. IF you can do this and it comes back as a balk, I will throw in the towel. Can you say the same? ( I already did this and "NO BALK)
bocolvin 1 year ago
@bocolvin
This is what he'd say to a rules committee: "There are no videos online of an MLB pitcher doing it, so therefore it must be illegal, and it's just common sense, and my gray area interpretation, mmmkay?"
SDSUChemTA 1 year ago
@SDSUChemTA
And that isnt how I would phrase it ... it would go more like this ... "these two layman idiots keep quoting rules that do not apply to this illegal move and they are saying Wendlestat said its legal and it makes you two look stupid. So you may want to chime in on this instead of having an office jockey send out emails representing you."
3018276800 1 year ago
@bocolvin
LMAO ... Now I TOTALLY agree w/ U. Your kid is WAY more coordinated than ALL MLB pitchers. LMAO. The reason I dont want to call any "national office" is no dumbass office jockey is going to know the game ...period. Hell, baseball is king here in FL & the FHSAA screws up about a half dozen questions every yr on the test.
I know pro umpires, minor and pro, what am I going to say ... "so&so said ...?" & you still wont believe it & still quote some rule that doesn't even apply.
3018276800 1 year ago