" Does John 3:16 really teach that Jesus died for the entire world? Well, in a sense, yes, and, in a sense, no. Watch the video to find out."
Are there two different death-senses? One for the elect and another for the non-elect? I suppose the one for the elect is based on the fact they they alone are lost sinners. If Jesus meant what He said when He said that He came to seek and to save the lost, then only the elect are lost because they alone are saved .
1 John 5:19 obviously does not mean that every single person (including the elect) are under the control of the devil. It simply means that the entire worldly system of politics and government are under his control. That's why Jesus said: "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence (John 18:36). His governmental system is entirely different.
I would invite this guy anytime to explain the meaning of "world" in John 3:16 to my grade 1 Sunday School class. He presents God's exclusionary and selective love with so much compassion that he has inspired me to convey his divine wisdom to my class. I'm going to tell them "Some of you little critters are part of the world and some of you are not. To those of you who are not I have some bad news. God does not love you and his Son never died for you.
Ohhh my beloved Arminians ... the doctrines do hurt when the Holy Spirit does not grant understanding .. What is Calvinism? Nothing other than the exposition of biblical doctrines that makes you realize how incapable you are to reach God and how gracious God is to have reached me ... What is Arminianism? Nothing other than feeling encouraged to assume that your righteosuness has led you to seek and choose for the Lord ... how mistaken is that approach ...
What is Arminianism? Nothing other than feeling encouraged to assume that your righteosuness has led you to seek and choose for the Lord ... how mistaken is that approach ...
I am not an Armenian and neither a Calvinist. It is not one's righteousness that leads you to seek the Lord. Where did you get that silly idea. Only those who are sick will go to a doctor, meaning that only those who realize they have no righteousness of their own will seek Him. Isn't that what Jesus said?
The fact is that the Bible teaches both free will and predestination but for some reason everyone needs to say it's one or the other. Instead of trying to understand this we should just trust that God knows what's up and that it is somehow both. Not everything that God does has to make sense to us but i guarantee that He is merciful and just and He knows what He's doing! Our job is to tell people about Jesus not argue with each about something that we will never be able to fully understand.
Why would a loving God make the doctrine of salvation so difficult to understand that it makes very little or no sense? What did Jesus mean when He said: "You shall know the Truth and the Truth will make you free?" Was He lying? Calvinism's God is a God of confusion and cruel dichotomies. The God of the Bible is NOT!
This is a really carnal video; True understanding does not come from "Biblical hermeneutics" but from the Holy Spirit only. One can study Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek or any other language, and at the end of the day find yourself ever learning but unable to come to the knowledge of the Truth. A good example is the statement in this video; "The whole world followed after the Beast...” That text cannot include believes because we are not of this world. Carnal mind cannot perceive spiritual matters
silly christians. there are soooo many sect of christianity and non of them can agree on there own doctrine. you people want to believe that you are elect. this sounds like elitism to me. if you think one group is superior than another than you are just wrrong. the bible is not a credible source for morality.
I assume that you are not a Christian and yet you seem to have more savvy than the Calvinists themselves. Did you know that this is what the Bible teaches? Jesus said: And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light. [Luk 16:8]. I'm not so sure that Calvinists are children of light. [Isa 8:20]
@indeed478 No, I can explain for you - its impossible for calvinism to put the cross at a "higher position" because of the heresy of unconditional election, plus they have the atonement wrong. Christ died for the whole world not just the elect, calvinism is a system of blasphemy.
Ok so i'm looking at these passages as he reades them off and Romans 10 is all about how the hole world, all the people who believe in him will be saved. It helps to read the entire chapter that the verse is in, when you read it in contex that helps you get a true understanding of the meaning.
@horseman528 Exactly right! Calvinism makes God out to be a respecter of persons. God is satan and satan is God in calvinist theology. Calvinism has no understanding of the cross.
@TheKJVberean "Calvinism has no understanding of the cross." That my friend is the most false statement I have ever heard. Not only does Calvinism understand the cross, it puts the cross at a much higher position then any other doctrine out there! It centers the whole Bible around Christ, and it makes the Father, actually like a father! Would you like me to explain?
@horseman528 Amen once again brother! Nice to see someone with discernment, Does John 3:16 refute calvinism? It not only refutes it, it destroys it! And if it takes 3 parts to explain how john 316 doesnt refute calvinism then it proves to the contrary that it does refute calvinism. Calvinists try to interpret what doesnt need interpretation, thats how you get false doctrine. Calvinism is heresy from hell, and false gospel does NOT save!
@TheKJVberean Thanks, I can't accept Calvinism since it teaches by exclusion from being part of the so called elect, the vast majority of mankind has no other choice but to be lost. That would make God one who purposely hates the majority of his human creation and has a desire to see people burn in hell. In 1 John it says God is love. Read Ezekiel 18:21-32. It proves that man has freewill and God has no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked.
Who did God foreknow in Rom 8:29.? He knew who would follow Him and He knew who would not follow Him. The idea that God gives no one any choice but yet punishes them in eternal hell is stupid. Thats like programing a robot to do wrong and then getting upset when the robot did what you programed it to do. James 1:13-14 says that God does not tempt men with evil but people are drawn away by their OWN lust and desire.
@horseman528 I would ask that you study Romans 8:29 in depth. The context is God working things together for "those called" according to His purpose (v.28). "Knowing who would not follow Him" is NOT in the context . "Foreknew" in the original Greek is "knowing intimately". In Genesis it says Adam "knew" his wife - this was intimacy not just knowledge. Romans 8:29 is explaining the steps of "his purpose" He knew His people Intimately thus predestined. Douglas J Moo is a good source to check.
Not to "open up a can of worms" or anything, but it doesnt bother anyone that mostly white people believe Calvinism, and that they use the word "calvinism" more often than "salvation"? Just curious :)
The world (ton kosmon). The whole cosmos of men, including Gentiles, the whole human race. This universal aspect of God's love appears also in 2 Corinthians 5:19 ; Romans 5:8 .
Jesus died for the world as the 'lamb of God'. That is a reference to the first passover where a the blood of a lamb saved the Hebrew people from God's judgment but many of those Israelites were rebellious and God still dealt with them later in the wilderness. We don't know what judgment God had in mind at the crucifixion but we do know that He flooded the earth at the time of Noah because of violence and sin.
There are other verses that make calvanism wrong as well. Jesus said: Come back to me backsliders, for I am married to you.
If you cannot lose your salvation as said by calvanism then Jesus' words here would be a waste of, not only his words, but also the time he spent to say them.
I don't think Jesus was one to waste his time or words, he changed the world in a three year period.
Also, your logic is flawed...that the bible wouldn't exhort people to persevere unless they could lose their salvation.
I can think of one reason; that God uses means to accomplish His will. The exhortations in scripture are part of the means He uses to keep real believers "in him" and to heap condemnation on those who are pretenders.
@rpavich Jeremiah 3:14 Once again, if you cannot lose your salvation, I don't believe the Lord would waste his time or his words on this subject. It is not my logic, it is God's. There are many examples in the bible of losing salvation. Your logic is the one flawed if you disagree with scripture.
What? That makes no sense....God could have perfectly good reasons for exhorting believers to persevere...I've already mentioned one; as a mechanism for keeping them...(one mechanism, anyway)
Your comment was baseless...just your opinion and not well thought out.
I could go on but even this small piece should show you they are willing to lie from the start. If they need to make things up to prove a point then is their point true?
ALL calvinism is the pure worship of satan, but then again so is arminianism!
Yes, "lose your salvation" is the pure worship of satan. Both calvinism and arminianism("lose your salvation") are doctrines created/thought of/ made up by satan himself.
This is really low brow stuff. Propaganda, through and through. I love the way the slam beliefs of the majority of scholars as if people who don't buy their heresy are a dumb fringe group.
John 7:7 doesn't have the word unbelievers in it.
John 12:19 Never speaks of a region or individual and translated WORLD
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. (doesn't contain the word WORLD or COSMOS or unbelievers).
John 15:19 STILL WORLD, just differentiating the heavenly call of believers.
There is no greek word "whosoever." Rather, "whosoever" is an English word used to express a Greek phrase that is difficult to render in English. (See, James White's Does Jn 3:16 Debunk Calvinism).
I heard Kenneth Copeland say, "if you study out that greek word 'whosoever' you will find that it absolutely means 'whosoever'" Then, he went on to emphasise how broad and encompasing the greek word was.
However, the phrase
"WHOSOEVER beliefes in Him should not perish . . ." literally rendered is: "[in order that] every 'the one believing' in him not to perish . . " or, with a little translating "in order that every believing one shall not perish . . ."
John 3:18 goes on to say "but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed . . ."
Conclusion: How is it such a loving thing FOR THE UNBELIEVERS that God gave His Son and proclaimed it to the ends of the earth? To them, it is their condemnation, the chief evidence at their final trial.
Anyone who believes that God's love in 3:16 means also UNBELIEVERS, need only read down to v. 18 to see that such SPECIFICALLY does not apply to UNBELIEVERS.
I agree with you. God owes us nothing. Our life is a gift that we should be thankful for, though sometimes that life is also full of pain and suffering. We had no choice to be here, none of us do, so to be born into an eternal curse, of which only some people will be saved is absolutely cruel.
I guess it depends on how you look at it...you must not believe that man is guilty of sin against a perfect and Holy God...and that man deserves whatever punishment he gets....
I do...so my outlook is just the opposite; i believe that God is just in punishing all mankind...and he's more than kind to rescue some from that punishment.
thanks for your objectivity. You're right, I don't accept that we're under the curse of a holy God, who views us as "objects of wrath". This is mostly because I view the Bible critically and not as infallible.
It is very important for the glory of God that the unbelievers hear the gospel, so that they are utterly without excuse before the Lord. Thus, His justice is totally without refute, and God is glorified even in the destruction of the wicked.
People think that knowledge of Christ is a good thing. But for unbelievers, it is a terrible, terrible thing, to have known clearly and to have rejected. See, Hebrews 10:29-31.
Rom 10:12-18 "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For 'whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.' How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? . . . But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, 'Lord, who has believed our report?' . . . But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: 'Their sound has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world."
Come to think of it, John 3 :16 refutes another Christian doctrine i.e. "The only Son of God". Begotten means Jesus claimed to be the only [born] Son of God because Adam was the first [created] son of God Luke 3:38
Come to think of it, John 3 :16 refutes another Christian doctrine i.e. "The only Son of God" because begotten means Jesus claimed to be the only [born] Son of God because Adam was the first [created] son of God Luke 3:38
Calvinists want to have their cake, or their false god, and eat it to; God causes everything because God is Sovereign, Sovereign, Sovereign--but is not responsible for evil. Calvinism is not only heretical, it is evil Why anyone would want to believe in it is beyond my Catholic Imagination. I can guess though--it ironically appeals to the more power hungry and elitist elements in human nature caused by Original Sin.
@BradSSFL ' "The LORD bless you and keep you; the LORD make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you; the LORD turn his face toward you and give you peace." ' Numbers 6:24-26
It is your choice if you want to go to heaven or hell,God do not send any one to hell.yu choice God or hell that your choice live acording to the word and act on it.
@27chantale Amen. We indeed have free will. Yes, John 3:16 (and the rest of the Bible) refutes Calvinism--- a satanic doctrine and one that evaporates when confronted by God's Word, just as any other heresy (Lutheranism, this "purpose-driven" babble, etc.).
The "T" and "U" of "TULIP" theology are correct. The rest is incorrect. As I said in an essay once, it's lip service. No more wit, though; this topic is eternally important. Calvin's doctrine is simply not of God. Don't defend the liar.
What the heck is all the fuss about?Calvinism seems pretty biblical to me.
Jesus himself said no one can come to God unless God draws him, so why is it that God drew someone like..oh say, Martin Luther and not all other people?Jesus also told his disciples that hey had NOT chosen him,but he had chosen them.Like the apostle Paul for example-by his free will,he chose to persecute the church,nevertheless,God had other plans for him,even though he rejected the gospel.This seems simple.
@GodLovesUs100 Your tone isn't Christian, and certainly, neither is your doctrine. Jesus died for all, not for some, and if He were to decide who became saved and who wouldn't, that action would contradict His entire nature and the need for the Crucifixion to begin with!
If there were no free will, there would be no sin in the world.
God does DRAW us to Him, but He does not make the DECISION to be saved for us--- and if Calvin's right, there IS no decision to begin with! CONTRADICTIONS!!!
@BradSSFL No it would not,Jesus himself said he lays down his life for his sheep and that he was NOT praying for the world.If Jesus already atoned for a person who goes to Hell's heart,why would they be paying for their sins AGAIN in Hell?If God only draws a sinner to him,the sinner will then hate him more because they love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil and reject light,so it is a work of God when one's heart is converted...a person is spiritually DEAD prior to it.
@GodLovesUs100 Calvinism IS biblical and there is no reason for you to debate with BradSSFL because it most likely will get neither of you anywhere. Best thing to do is ignore his comments.
@HDell1994 Yeah I see that more and more, I mean maybe something will get through to people.I didn't have much of an issue understanding the doctrine but thanks for the advice...God bless you.:)
Calvanism and armainism is both a waste of man's ability to follow him.
If you had a God that knows every move and thing a person will do his whole life and knew it 2000 years ago. He does not need election or decision at all but just knows flate out what you will accept and not accept. If he knew what you will accept 2000 years ago calvinism and aremanism is just a waste of time thinking about. These two item that are discussed is just a joke to me to think about.
Those who think that men are so strong that God cannot go against their will to save them or keep them saved think that God is a weak and incipient God who is no stronger than man. What kind of a simp god do you worship? I'm so glad I worship the great and awesome God of the Bible. The MOST HIGH-A God of wrath and love.
I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy." Deuteronomy 32:39-42
@sonofmyrighthandbjh First of all, you sniveling punk and liar, you need a new screen name, you decrepit piece of trash. Sound harsh? I'm bashing what needs to be bashed, including your character.
You're taking verses out of context, liar, so take your liberal lies out of here and present the truth and show some objectivity in the meantime. You probably think the liberalism that permeates our society is objective, huh?
God is not self-contradictory.... unlike the postmodernism of today.
@BradSSFL ' "The LORD bless you and keep you; the LORD make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you; the LORD turn his face toward you and give you peace." ' Numbers 6:24-26
@HDell1994 I guess you think the Lord's tone wasn't Christian when He made a scene in that church that time, huh? Do you think really that having a passion for God is NOT Christian????? As for my doctrine, I would expect your response-- since you're a Calvinist. Calvin preaches that we have no free will, that God chooses who goes to Heaven and who doesn't, amidst many other lies. Calvinism contradicts the entire Bible, and Martin Luther did the same. They're like Osteen, Warren, Hagee, etc..
@BradSSFL Well actually all I did was quote what you said to someone else who seemed to have a better tone than yours. I'm not going to get into arguing about Calvinism though, not because I'm afraid or don't believe that I have scriptures to back it up, but rather because I see that the both of us are hardened in our own beliefs and I would say that your doctrine contradicts the Bible too. I could possibly believe that your doctrine is worse than you believe mine is. So this is pointless. Gby.
Do we really know the God of the Bible? "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever. If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment;
Or how about when the Lord caused the Midianites to kill each other during battle? Or how about the 50,000 men of Bethshemesh God killed for looking into the Ark of the Covenant? Is this the 'god' you worship? What about the men in the New Testament that were blinded by God so that they could not believe in Jesus for salvation? Matthew 11:25, John 12:40
Did God so love the world when he burned to death all the people of Sodom and Gomorah? Including women, children, and babies? Except Lot and his family. Did God so love the world when he killed all the firstborn of Egypt? Did God so love the world when he commanded Israel to utterly destroy all in the Land of Heshbon? Including their "little ones"? Or Bashan? Or the Anakim? Or the Canaanites? Or the Perizzites? Or the Hazorites? Or the Moabites?
@sonofmyrighthandbjh Yes, He did. As you fail to admit/understand, liar, love and tolerance are complete opposites. God's fury is every bit as much a trait of His love as any other trait.
So, you think He's supposed to tolerate evil? To tolerate something is to be an accomplice to it.
A question for all of those who oppose Calvinism, and Mark Kielars interpretation. Did God so love the world when he caused a flood to destroy every human being, except Noah and his family. This included, children, infants, and the unborn. Did God so love the world when he commanded Israel to slaughter an entire people group? The Amalekites? This including their women, children, and babies.
@sonofmyrighthandbjh John Calvin was nothing but a satanic doctrine-spreading individual who sorrily tried to call himself a man of God. His doctrine might be the most-satanic of them all, though Martin Luther, Rick Warren, Joel Osteen, etc. are there with him.
God creates life and therefore has the right to take it away. Don't you DARE try to say otherwise, and as for contradictions, God has none. The postmodern society of today does. (You're probably pro-abortion.)
@BradSSFL ' "The LORD bless you and keep you; the LORD make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you; the LORD turn his face toward you and give you peace." ' Numbers 6:24-26
@BradSSFL "The LORD bless you and keep you; the LORD make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you; the LORD turn his face toward you and give you peace." ' Numbers 6:24-26
@BradSSFL The LORD bless you and keep you; the LORD make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you; the LORD turn his face toward you and give you peace." ' Numbers 6:24-26
Google this guy before you listen to him. He is known as a liar and a twister of truth for his role in swindling non-profit organizations out of money in his fake PBS documentaries. He sued Walter Cronkite after Cronkite learned that his "news program" was actually paid advertising. If the world knows a man as a liar and a cheat, he is no less in the house of God. A scripture by scripture analysis of his programs shows that he distorts the Bible, also.
Just listen to how that sounds. 'Does John 3:16 refute calvinism?' This arrogance is beyond comprehensible and is a slap in Lord Jesus' face. What you're actually saying is that God's own words do not hold up to your foolish calvinist beliefs. Woe to you. Repent and believe the true gospel of Jesus Christ before it is too late!
I've spent the last 3 days running to every bookstore I could find, looked at every concordance, dictionary, etc and not one has the definition "believers" for world. Blue letter Bible has this on their site. I e-mailed them and they said it was from the Lockman's NASB Concordance. Well, I bought one. Guess what they rendering of the word world or kosmos means: World. Why do you have to lie to justify your position? Because it is just not Scriptural.
@OpCornerstone I'm sorry, but your post is just sad. Surely, having watched the video, you have absorbed the point that the meaning of the word 'κόσμος' changes according to context. Thayer's definition 8b is:
What's funny is the deception used by Kielar to justify his position. This is what the Calvinists are doing to win over people to their theology. They are changing the word of God to deceive people into thinking that "world" means something it don't.
Its funny that the problem seen is the meaning of a word? Are you kidding me? Let forget the validity of whether or not this book is true or not. Do you know how many times the bible was translated before it reached english? between ancient hebrew, aramaic, greek, latin... meaning is lost through translations; of any text. You sure any of these quote were the original meaning. Can you read ancient hebrew?
You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! Yet you refuse to come to me to receive this life (Jn 5:39-40). The truth does not save - Jesus does! Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesnt really know very much
Jn 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Jn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Ps 25:10 All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies. Jn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Many Christians have become so bogged down in the study of and arguments about matters of doctrine that they lose sight of the biblical seek and ye shall find truth for themselves. Doctrines, which are of man, not God, can be dangerous and misleading. It this were not so, why are there so many different groups all adamant that truth is only found through believing in the doctrine encouraged by their particular denomination?
@sisterspure A doctrine is not necessarily "of man." A man indeed can preach sound doctrine. Unfortunately, most do not. Calvin, a satanic individual, certainly didn't.
Vine's Expository Dictionary also contradicts Mark's statement that the Greek word "kosmos" refers to just the elect out of the world using The "Enhanced" Strong's Lexicon (see previous comment). Vine's says, "by His coming into the world He was the light for all men [John 1] ver. 10; 3:16, 17 (thrice), 19; 4:42 and frequently in Rom., 11:12, 15, where the meaning is that all who will may be reconciled (cp. 2Cor 5:19);"
Mark, in this video mistakenly says that Strong's Greek Concordance has 8 definitions for the word "kosmos" - You meant to say, The Enhanced Strong's Lexicon which includes Strong's Numbers with Brown, Driver, Briggs and Thayer lexicons Definitions are found in Strong's Expanded Dictionary which is based on the Thayer and Brown, Driver, Briggs lexicons. This is important because the 8 definitions do not come from James Strong.
BrotherRyanHicks chews you Calvinists up and spits your false doctrines OUT! Watch his video "Calvanism Believes God Decrees Murder, Rape, and EVERY SIN!
His one called "Did Martin Luther Believe in Faith Alone?" was also GREAT!
Anyone who really wants to know what Martin Luther thought on faith and human free-will would do MUCH better reading Luther's 'On the Bondage of the Will' (a reply to Erasmus), where Luther tells us humans are too bound in sin to be capable of saving ourselves - Salvation is purely by God's good pleasure through the awakening of the soul. Sounds reformed to me!
Martin Luther taught baptismal regeneration which is heresy! Of course this explains why so many reformers baptized infants even though such a practice is NEVER found in the scriptures!
Lane, You mistakingly say that Strong's Greek Lexicon has 8 definitions for the word "kosmos" - You meant to say, The Enhanced Strong's Lexicon which includes Strong's Numbers with Brown, Driver, Briggs and Thayer lexicons Definitions are found in Strong's Expanded Dictionary which is based on the Thayer and Brown, Driver, Briggs lexicons. This is important because the 8 definitions do not come from James Strong.
John 3:16 still refutes calvinism not becaues of the word world in it but because of the word whosoever. The word whosoever means not necessarily all men but that if anyone believes. This means if anyone believes thus God issues an open invitation to everyone. Whether all men believe or not is up to man. Some believe and some don't.
Then do all men have the chance to hear the gospel? If your answer is no, then is God unjust because they don't? Is there another way to be saved than through the gospel? If your answer is yes, then there is another way to be saved besides believing in Jesus.
I believe all men do get the chance to hear the gospel, God makes it clear that man will be without excuse on judgement day. Also God gave man a conscious, the law, the written Word, and other resources which show how men have sinned and are in need of a savior.
Obviously, all men DO NOT have the chance to hear the gospel. Did the American Indians hear the gospel? If you are a Mormon you might say yes, but then there is no proof of this at all and there are many others who have not heard. We are all responsible, yes, but we do not all hear the gospel. What is your definition of "gospel?"
Are you saying that God can't appear to people and reveal Himself in a dream or a vision? Just because they haven't heard the gospel from men doesn't mean that they haven't heard the gospel.
Well, you asked me a question privately, but I couldn't answer you because there was no "reply" button.
I do believe that some people can meet Christ in other ways. He appeared to Paul, and I hear He appears to some in places like India. But guess what? HE CHOSE THEM, THEY DIDN'T SEEK HIM FIRST! He came to save His own.
Chosing implies that the one being chosen accepts it. Whether your talking about election or being chosen, we must reciprocate in kind. God elects all to be saved and desires all, but we must accept this election in order to become elect.
First, what Strong's concordance is he using. I don't have those 8 definitions on mine. Second, he seems to be trying to confuse the issue by putting doubt on what the word "world", as meaning "all people". Third, as such, he offers no contextual proof that the word "world" can only mean "believers only", he merely states that the context does not support an all-inclusive meaning.
It's a mystery to me why Geisler receives so much respect, when his YouTube videos reveal a blustering old hypocrite both unable to understand plain scripture, and very obviously unwilling for anyone to check for themselves.
Calvanism is a cult! They are the only ones who have the "keys" to understand John 3:16. They admit that "world" could mean "all men", but take you on a rabbit trail to convince us that it means only the believers. The word "whosoever" sheds light on the word "world". The scriptures teach us to "love not the world" (1 John 2:15). Does this mean we are to hate "believers"? That would be the meaning if we used the Calvanist's explanation John 3:16!
Why do you appeal to my intellect? Are you not trusting in your works of "convincing me of calvanism" to save me from my sin (of not acceptin calvanism). Why do you witness? If God does it all without our heart turning to him in repentence and faith, then why preach, teach, warn, pray, ect...? Are these not all works that cannot save? Are men born to burn forever without hope? Was the middle wall of petition not broken down in Eph. 2:14 in order to give the Gentiles and Jew access to God?
Did we not have to choose whether or not to take advantage of the holy of holies that was made accessible by the renting in twain of the veil of separation? I couldn't rend that veil. I couldn't tear down that middle wall of petition, but I could call upon the name of the Lord, and throw myself at the mercy of thrice holy God. Could I not "come boldly to the "throne of Grace" and obtain mercy and find grace to help in my time of need? Is it a "work" to "come" and "reason together" with Him?
I'm defending the doctrine of Grace because it is the only consistent Scriptural theology. Any 'struggle' is not between intellects (I'd lose!) but to clarify what God is telling us, which means cutting through a lot of tradition.
Your point about human inability is well-expressed, but you seem to join it with the idea free, rational people might wish for eternal punishment. The latter concept is logically incoherent.
Salvation is and always has been a matter of God's free Grace.
The Gospel message is all about REPENTENCE and FAITH. Jesus preached REPENT. John preached REPENT. Peter preached REPENT at pentecost to the lost. Calvanists have divorced repentance from the message of the Gospel, Why would repentance be deemed nessessary if one is elected without it.
We agree then that repentance is at the heart of the Gospel message. But what if we acknowledge that repentance is impossible unless God acts directly in our lives?
What if John 6:65 is true, and nobody can repent and lift themselves from sin unless God wills it?
Thus Election and true repentance are the same thing, both under the sovereign power of the Almighty.
You must reconcile John 6:65 with Matt. 11:28 "Come unto me, ALL YE that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." It didn't say, "All ye that are elected"! We all laboured under the heavy yolk of sin and false religion! Opportunity for repentance has been granted to ALL by the Father who is not willing that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance! Noah built a big ark! Everyone was invited to get in, but only 8 souls heeded the call and were saved.
I think to understand Jesus words in Matthew 11:28-30 is shown in Matthew 11:27
"no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son CHOOSES to reveal him"
Re: Noahs Ark, look at Genesis 6:15. God gives the dimensions of the Ark. How much space did God allow for extra people? God chose Noah to live, and the sinful to die. He is sovereign (Psalm 135:6).
But was there human choice in Jeremiah 1:5 and Acts 9:36? Could Paul have said "no thanks"?
Why does Jesus chide the cities in Matt. 11:21 for not repenting if it were not possible for them to do so? That makes no sense. Sodom would have repented if they had heard and seen the same works. Yes, Paul could have said no just the same as Agrippa did and just like I did for a time. Paul understood that he could become a "castaway" after having preached to others. Who did Jesus reveal the Father too? All that saw him! He that hath seen me hath seen the Father. Jn 14:9. Many saw and rejected!
If God made a special effort to save those among His chosen people, does that make Him unjust? Peter and Andrew repented, so the mission was not a complete failure...
But what about our old friend Matt 11:27? The granting of repentance is God's GIFT.
You believe Paul, Moses, etc. could have refused God's call. What about Lazarus? Did he REALLY have a chance to reject?
But read John 10:25-30. The Elect hear and obey, the others are left in angry desperation.
The problem between us is the way we define the sovereignty of God. You see God's will as only a concrete decretive will, while I see it as not only decretive, but also perceptive and permissive. No matter how "calvanistic" you are, you are able to sin and do contrary to the decretive and perceptive will of God! While God allows you to choose sin (through his permissive will), you will certainly face the consequences for your actions. You say that Moses had no choice, yet he disobeyed God.
The scriptures are clear in Jn 1:11-13 that Jesus came to "HIS OWN", and "HIS OWN" received him not BUT, AS MANY AS RECEIVED HIM, to THEM gave he power to become the son's of God, even to them that believe on his name. Vs 13 lets us know that these are born not of....but "of God". Only those who received him and believed on him were born of God, even among his OWN. As for Jn. 10:25-30, do you always hear and obey? Have you perfectly "followed" him? Or do you sin a little every day?
In the context, it's fairly obvious that Jesus' 'own' are the Jewish people, the only ones graced with the knowledge of the Almighty. The disciples were Jewish, as was Paul, but their birth into Salvation was an act of God, not of personal will.
In answer to your point on John 10:25-30; have you read Romans 7:14-25? The enemy's arm is long, and his power real, even with men like Paul.
I would, however, like to know if you feel Lazarus could have refused to come forth. If not, why not?
On this point we agree! Salvation was an act of God, however, it was in response to those who received him and believed on him. Their salvation was not the results of blood (being born into it naturally) or the will of flesh or will of man (no man could decree this or establish this work). The new birth is a work of God in response to those who "receive him". Are you saying that Satan can make us live contrary to the perfect decretive will of God? Would that not make him greater than God?
How can the dead soul pick itself up and worship the Almighty?
Have you also considered that, by your system, if salvation is merely a human decision, then losing it is just as easy? Logically you have no security in Christ, given you might change your mind at any point - making Christ's sacrifice for you pointless.
Re: your second point, human beings have chosen satan, and we are living through the results of that choice. God remains sovereign, however.
Ask that question to the man of Gadara or the woman of Canaan. Mark 5:6 tells us of a devil possessed man who worshipped before he was delivered. The word worshipped is the same word used in Rev. 5:14 to describe what the 24 elders are doing before the throne night and day! The word is used in many other passages concerning worship. Yes, I have considered that losing salvation is just as easy as making a decision not to follow Christ. We have many examples of such in the NT! Demas, Judus,..
The word is 'προσκυνέω', a word occurring about 60 times in the NT. It's meaning ranges from 'kneeling in homage' to 'kissing a hand towards someone'. Thus the use of the same term in Mark and Revelation doesn't seem to me to really say much, per se.
Judas betrayed Jesus, in order that God's purpose in Salvation should occur. He is sovereign.
Joseph's brothers betrayed Joseph, but read Joseph's words in Gen 45:7-8. God does ALL things to His Glory.
I agree that worship takes on many various forms, but the fact is, you insinuated that a dead soul could not worship the Almighty. It is clear that they can! No one argues that God cannot or has not (in his sovereignty) foretold or decreed that certain men or women do certain things (he hardened Pharoah's heart), however, I refuse to believe that every soul is decreed doomed or saved by the sovereignty of God. Even Moses could intercede for the people after God DECREED that they be destroyed!
Calvanism is all about shifting the blame for man's sin either on to the "Sovereignty of God" or on to the Devil, while man is not directly held responsible. If God made certain people to be vile and wicked, then why do you waist you time trying to convert them? Take the Primitive Baptist approach and let God do it ALL! As for Lazarus, this is doting about foolish questions which gender strife. This is like asking, "Could Jesus have Sinned?" He didn't, and that's what matters!
Calvin made it clear the responsibility for human sin lies entirely with human beings. But you assume people dislike sin, when experience suggests otherwise.
Reformed people trry to convert firstly because of Matt 28:19-20, but also because the Elect live in all categories of humanity ('all men'). While the life-changing aspects of Grace are obvious, knowledge of the identity of the Elect is not given.
Giving all the credit for salvation to God, not our own efforts, IS giving Him all.
How can the responsibility for sin lie on the back of the sinner if Calvin is correct about the nature of God's sovereignty? If everything is purely decretive? God designed that certain men live sinful and die lost and burn in hell forever to satisfy his own pleasure. I'd say that makes God out to be a tyrannical sinner himself! Calvin is speaking out of both sides of his mouth.
God takes no pleasure in sin, or in punishing it (Eze 18:32, Lam 3:33). God is love (1 John 4:8) and perfect justice (Deu 32:4). There is no badness in love (1 Cor 13:6).
God knows from eternity those who will love Him truly (Eph 1:4-6). The point is that humans are naturally SLAVES of sin (Rom 6:17-18), and have no genuine inherent freedom to begin with. From this catastrophe, God lifts forth His Beloved to be with Him. That's love.
No one is arguing about the foreknowledge of God in this discussion! His beloved are those that "believe on him, do his commandments, and obey him". If we can trust an esoteric feeling or witness that we are the "Beloved" and "Chosen" of God, then what is the pupose of the Scripture? Why did God waist his time revealing to us his word. Why did he have to purchase his "so- called" elect? This makes God out to be a "respector of persons".
Romans 7 is Paul's dealing with "them that know the law". He is describing his life and testemony under the law. Romans 8 brings Paul out of that struggle and brings him into the normal Christian experiance where, "There is therefore NOW NO condemnation to them which ARE in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh (Rom. 7) but after the Spirit (Rom. 8). Rom. 7 is the testimony of a man living under law. Paul understood that struggle more so than anyone else.
Absolutely! It is granted to all who will REPENT and BELIEVE on the LORD JESUS CHRIST! I have no problem with that! I grant my children things as well when they obey me. OBEY THE GOSPEL and you too will understand the mysteries of the kingdom!
The death and resurrection of Jesus on the cross makes it possible for men to believe in Him. That is where the granting comes from, Christ did all the work and he grants us eternal life for chosing him.
How then do we interpret the Biblical witness that faith is a GIFT? Your depiction of Jesus as a passive beggar hoping passersby will choose Him is quite different from the Bible's depiction in, say, Rev 19:11-15, Heb 1:2-3, or John 1:3.
No, Jesus is the Almighty of Rev 1:8. His choice is certain and eternal, and He NEVER fails.
The Bible doesn't say that faith is a gift, if your referring to Eph 2:8-9 it's grace that's the gift not faith. The fact that you can believe in anything you want is proof that we all are born with faith, we just chose to put it in different things. We all have faith in something, but it's important to put faith in Jesus Christ as He is the beggar waiitng for those to chose Him. But that same beggar had the authority over sin and death so He's all powerful now all man must do is believe.
Nope. The gift of saving faith comes through Grace AKA God's sovereign choice. The first commandment recognises the many false gods that exist in our world, but the faith that Jesus is referring to in John 3:16 is given purely by God.
Read Eph 2:5 - we are DEAD without Grace. Can a dead person believe? Can a dead person do anything? Faith, the life of Salvation, is a gift. God is sovereign.
Thus Jesus is NEVER a beggar, but always All-Mighty God. He decides, in perfect justice.
Eph 2:5, Dead without Grace, it's talking about perishing for eternal life in hell. Paul later on makes the point that if Christ didn't die than our faith is in vain and we are codemned to eternal punishment in hell. Eph 2:5, grace is a free gift from God that we don't deserve. This gift is salvation which was made possible only through Christ's death and rez on the cross. Faith no where is being said that it's the gift given by God.
@cubed07 2Pet 1:1b to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: "obtained" is a passive word in the Greek which implies something given. Jesus being the Author and Finisher of our faith (Heb 12:2) having accomplished this on the cross has bestowed upon us His faith. All that we have is given to us by God the Father in Jesus Christ. Grace applied to the heart that comes by faith through the hearing of the word by the Spirit.
I don't disagree with Jesus power and keep in mind he chose to give all that up and come down to be made lesser than the angels. Read Hebrews ch 1-3. However, your verses don't say that faith is a gift from God so your wrong that faith is a gift given to only the predestined.
Obviously the Son chose to reveal him to every man. Titus 2:11-12 "For the Grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL MEN, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we SHOULD (not WOULD) live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world" Oh, I forgot, Spurgeon says all only means a few or parts of various groups. Let God be TRUE and every MAN a liar! Grace teaches, but does not force!
I think we're going round and round on this subject of 'all men'. Given only those chosen by Jesus CAN hear His message, the only way to understand 'all men' is that Jesus is speaking to all of humanity, and no longer only the Jews.
You talk of Grace forcing; are lovers FORCED to kiss each other? Grace is given in love, and the Elect heart reacts accordingly. The reprobate is not capable (John 8:43)
Calvanism contridicts itself my friend. You claim that people are born "elected" and have to be made aware of that fact, yet you also teach that man is totally deprived and unable to reach God. This is not logical! Why don't the elect love God from birth? Why do they have to be made aware of their election? Why do they sin before, during, and after they are made aware of their election? How do you know that you are saved? What if you are not really one of the elect? This is assurance? lol...!
Good point. A common complaint of Reformed evangelists is that the Elect do not glow green, or otherwise make themselves obvious.
Your second point, about security, is also good, but look at it another way. A Reformed person knows God CANNOT fail, whereas an Arminian worships a deity always begging for their worship, and who they can (and often do) abandon as they wish. Which of these is the ALL-MIGHTY of the Bible? Read Job 38:1-41:34. Which God is speaking?
God has always demanded worship! He is a jealous God! God cannot fail, but MAN CAN! God cannot fail his promises and always keeps his side of the covenant. We are the ones who seem to have trouble keeping our end of the deal. The Bible is full of "if...then..."! We must obey the "ifs" before God is obligated to the "thens". The New Covenant is no different. Romans 10:9-10.
Okay, I will respond to this point. If Jesus died for all humans (as you argue), then every person in hell after His death represents God's failure, doesn't it? He just wasn't able to convince them, flatter them, or otherwise influence them to acknowledge the saving power of His Blood.
If God cannot fail, how can we explain anyone going to hell, if Christ died so that all would be saved? God NEVER fails to save those He loves. Ever.
Every person in hell tonight is there because of the reasons stated in Romans 1. They do not like to retain God in their knowledge! They have become VAIN! Man refuses to see his need for a Savior! Men love the "pleasures of sin"! Even your "so-called" elected ones loved the pleasures of sin! We were all born into the same condition! None of us were born with a "holiness" spoon in our mouths! Yet you claim that God only loves certain sinners and hates others! Is God a respector of persons?
"He just wasn't able to convince them, flatter them or otherwise influence them to acknowledge the saving power of His Blood"! You say that this makes God a failure. First of all Jn 3:16 says "should not perish" not "would not perish'! Secondly, Matt. 23:37 and Luke 13:34 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would NOT"!
" Does John 3:16 really teach that Jesus died for the entire world? Well, in a sense, yes, and, in a sense, no. Watch the video to find out."
Are there two different death-senses? One for the elect and another for the non-elect? I suppose the one for the elect is based on the fact they they alone are lost sinners. If Jesus meant what He said when He said that He came to seek and to save the lost, then only the elect are lost because they alone are saved .
lessingtom 1 month ago
1 John 5:19 obviously does not mean that every single person (including the elect) are under the control of the devil. It simply means that the entire worldly system of politics and government are under his control. That's why Jesus said: "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence (John 18:36). His governmental system is entirely different.
lessingtom 1 month ago
I would invite this guy anytime to explain the meaning of "world" in John 3:16 to my grade 1 Sunday School class. He presents God's exclusionary and selective love with so much compassion that he has inspired me to convey his divine wisdom to my class. I'm going to tell them "Some of you little critters are part of the world and some of you are not. To those of you who are not I have some bad news. God does not love you and his Son never died for you.
lessingtom 1 month ago
Ohhh my beloved Arminians ... the doctrines do hurt when the Holy Spirit does not grant understanding .. What is Calvinism? Nothing other than the exposition of biblical doctrines that makes you realize how incapable you are to reach God and how gracious God is to have reached me ... What is Arminianism? Nothing other than feeling encouraged to assume that your righteosuness has led you to seek and choose for the Lord ... how mistaken is that approach ...
cesar1431 6 months ago
@cesar1431
What is Arminianism? Nothing other than feeling encouraged to assume that your righteosuness has led you to seek and choose for the Lord ... how mistaken is that approach ...
I am not an Armenian and neither a Calvinist. It is not one's righteousness that leads you to seek the Lord. Where did you get that silly idea. Only those who are sick will go to a doctor, meaning that only those who realize they have no righteousness of their own will seek Him. Isn't that what Jesus said?
lessingtom 1 month ago
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Harold Camping was RIGHT about May 21, click on my channel to see...
youneekk 6 months ago
The great commission: Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel, making disciples of all nations.
Parable of the sower: sow your seed (God's word) everywhere
Election /selection is God's business not ours so dont waste time trying to figure it out.
SUNDAYSCHOOLTEACHER 7 months ago
@SUNDAYSCHOOLTEACHER
Exactly.
Keruaran 1 week ago
The fact is that the Bible teaches both free will and predestination but for some reason everyone needs to say it's one or the other. Instead of trying to understand this we should just trust that God knows what's up and that it is somehow both. Not everything that God does has to make sense to us but i guarantee that He is merciful and just and He knows what He's doing! Our job is to tell people about Jesus not argue with each about something that we will never be able to fully understand.
Seth4foor 9 months ago
@Seth4foor
Why would a loving God make the doctrine of salvation so difficult to understand that it makes very little or no sense? What did Jesus mean when He said: "You shall know the Truth and the Truth will make you free?" Was He lying? Calvinism's God is a God of confusion and cruel dichotomies. The God of the Bible is NOT!
lessingtom 1 month ago
This is a really carnal video; True understanding does not come from "Biblical hermeneutics" but from the Holy Spirit only. One can study Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek or any other language, and at the end of the day find yourself ever learning but unable to come to the knowledge of the Truth. A good example is the statement in this video; "The whole world followed after the Beast...” That text cannot include believes because we are not of this world. Carnal mind cannot perceive spiritual matters
AchreousD 9 months ago
silly christians. there are soooo many sect of christianity and non of them can agree on there own doctrine. you people want to believe that you are elect. this sounds like elitism to me. if you think one group is superior than another than you are just wrrong. the bible is not a credible source for morality.
live4pce 10 months ago
@live4pce
I assume that you are not a Christian and yet you seem to have more savvy than the Calvinists themselves. Did you know that this is what the Bible teaches? Jesus said: And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light. [Luk 16:8]. I'm not so sure that Calvinists are children of light. [Isa 8:20]
lessingtom 1 month ago
@indeed478 No, I can explain for you - its impossible for calvinism to put the cross at a "higher position" because of the heresy of unconditional election, plus they have the atonement wrong. Christ died for the whole world not just the elect, calvinism is a system of blasphemy.
TheKJVberean 10 months ago
Ok so i'm looking at these passages as he reades them off and Romans 10 is all about how the hole world, all the people who believe in him will be saved. It helps to read the entire chapter that the verse is in, when you read it in contex that helps you get a true understanding of the meaning.
BloodSweatTiers 10 months ago
Maybe God didn't "chose" you to watch this?
Not only does John 3:16 refute Calvinism, so does a lot of the rest of scripture...
But if your "eternally saved", I guess you don't have to worry.
rickgigliotti 10 months ago
@horseman528 Exactly right! Calvinism makes God out to be a respecter of persons. God is satan and satan is God in calvinist theology. Calvinism has no understanding of the cross.
TheKJVberean 11 months ago
@TheKJVberean "Calvinism has no understanding of the cross." That my friend is the most false statement I have ever heard. Not only does Calvinism understand the cross, it puts the cross at a much higher position then any other doctrine out there! It centers the whole Bible around Christ, and it makes the Father, actually like a father! Would you like me to explain?
indeed478 10 months ago
There is no "8 b" in Strong's concordance. That is a straight up LIE. You can go to BlueLetterBible (dot org) and check it for yourself.
777holysoulja 11 months ago
@horseman528 Amen once again brother! Nice to see someone with discernment, Does John 3:16 refute calvinism? It not only refutes it, it destroys it! And if it takes 3 parts to explain how john 316 doesnt refute calvinism then it proves to the contrary that it does refute calvinism. Calvinists try to interpret what doesnt need interpretation, thats how you get false doctrine. Calvinism is heresy from hell, and false gospel does NOT save!
TheKJVberean 11 months ago
@TheKJVberean Thanks, I can't accept Calvinism since it teaches by exclusion from being part of the so called elect, the vast majority of mankind has no other choice but to be lost. That would make God one who purposely hates the majority of his human creation and has a desire to see people burn in hell. In 1 John it says God is love. Read Ezekiel 18:21-32. It proves that man has freewill and God has no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked.
horseman528 11 months ago
Who did God foreknow in Rom 8:29.? He knew who would follow Him and He knew who would not follow Him. The idea that God gives no one any choice but yet punishes them in eternal hell is stupid. Thats like programing a robot to do wrong and then getting upset when the robot did what you programed it to do. James 1:13-14 says that God does not tempt men with evil but people are drawn away by their OWN lust and desire.
horseman528 11 months ago
@horseman528 I would ask that you study Romans 8:29 in depth. The context is God working things together for "those called" according to His purpose (v.28). "Knowing who would not follow Him" is NOT in the context . "Foreknew" in the original Greek is "knowing intimately". In Genesis it says Adam "knew" his wife - this was intimacy not just knowledge. Romans 8:29 is explaining the steps of "his purpose" He knew His people Intimately thus predestined. Douglas J Moo is a good source to check.
rrusco 11 months ago
Not to "open up a can of worms" or anything, but it doesnt bother anyone that mostly white people believe Calvinism, and that they use the word "calvinism" more often than "salvation"? Just curious :)
BadLilNinja 1 year ago
@BadLilNinja Calvinism just means we completely believe that Jesus' sacrifice will save everyone it was intended for.
CBALLEN 11 months ago
@CBALLEN oh ok, never heard it put that way, but thats easier to understand, thanks :)
BadLilNinja 11 months ago
The world (ton kosmon). The whole cosmos of men, including Gentiles, the whole human race. This universal aspect of God's love appears also in 2 Corinthians 5:19 ; Romans 5:8 .
- Robertson word picture of the New Testament.
HallofTyrannus 1 year ago
Carlton Pearson's gospel of inclusion solves this whole problem.
Big problem with the bible: the same book is used to defend all sides of this argument. God could have done better had he written this book.
k0smon 1 year ago
Jesus died for the world as the 'lamb of God'. That is a reference to the first passover where a the blood of a lamb saved the Hebrew people from God's judgment but many of those Israelites were rebellious and God still dealt with them later in the wilderness. We don't know what judgment God had in mind at the crucifixion but we do know that He flooded the earth at the time of Noah because of violence and sin.
yarrw 1 year ago
Ha ha...this sounds like Roman Geisler!
rpavich 1 year ago
8:05-8:09. Well......yes. Exactly.
drumrnva 1 year ago
There are other verses that make calvanism wrong as well. Jesus said: Come back to me backsliders, for I am married to you.
If you cannot lose your salvation as said by calvanism then Jesus' words here would be a waste of, not only his words, but also the time he spent to say them.
I don't think Jesus was one to waste his time or words, he changed the world in a three year period.
fundreamer1 1 year ago
@fundreamer1 amen brother
mrshineright 1 year ago
@fundreamer1
"come back to me backsliders?"
Where in the world is that found?
Also, your logic is flawed...that the bible wouldn't exhort people to persevere unless they could lose their salvation.
I can think of one reason; that God uses means to accomplish His will. The exhortations in scripture are part of the means He uses to keep real believers "in him" and to heap condemnation on those who are pretenders.
rpavich 1 year ago
@rpavich Jeremiah 3:14 Once again, if you cannot lose your salvation, I don't believe the Lord would waste his time or his words on this subject. It is not my logic, it is God's. There are many examples in the bible of losing salvation. Your logic is the one flawed if you disagree with scripture.
fundreamer1 1 year ago
@fundreamer1
Quote:
"...it's not my logic it's Gods"...
What? That makes no sense....God could have perfectly good reasons for exhorting believers to persevere...I've already mentioned one; as a mechanism for keeping them...(one mechanism, anyway)
Your comment was baseless...just your opinion and not well thought out.
rpavich 1 year ago
@fundreamer1
Give me one example of someone losing his salvation (and remember, not just falling away, but actually LOSING his salvation)
rpavich 1 year ago
@fundreamer1
Why do you cite Jeremiah 3:14 as if it has some bearing on the question of whether a person can lose their salvation or not?
Calvinist believe that people fall away...people resist God, people rebel...God works his plans....
No question....but you've not even come close to showing that a person can lose their salvation.
rpavich 1 year ago
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@rpavich Well then, why don't you live like a calvanist and sin all you want, and see how that works out for you on judgment day?
fundreamer1 1 year ago
I could go on but even this small piece should show you they are willing to lie from the start. If they need to make things up to prove a point then is their point true?
Be Blessed, God Loves you.
stitty 1 year ago
Comment removed
barrypatrickius 1 year ago
@stitty
ALL calvinism is the pure worship of satan, but then again so is arminianism!
Yes, "lose your salvation" is the pure worship of satan. Both calvinism and arminianism("lose your salvation") are doctrines created/thought of/ made up by satan himself.
barrypatrickius 1 year ago
This is really low brow stuff. Propaganda, through and through. I love the way the slam beliefs of the majority of scholars as if people who don't buy their heresy are a dumb fringe group.
John 7:7 doesn't have the word unbelievers in it.
John 12:19 Never speaks of a region or individual and translated WORLD
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. (doesn't contain the word WORLD or COSMOS or unbelievers).
John 15:19 STILL WORLD, just differentiating the heavenly call of believers.
stitty 1 year ago
@stitty
You are wrong.
Example: you said:
"John 7:7 doesn't have the word unbelievers in it."
That's true, but "o kosmos" in this particular context MEANS THE WORLD OF UNBELIEVERS.
That was his point.
You said:
"John 12:19 Never speaks of a region or individual and translated WORLD"
You are wrong again. John is speaking of "many of those in the immediate region" when the word "world" is used.
His point is that "world" is constrained by context...he's right, you're dead wrong.
rpavich 1 year ago
There is no greek word "whosoever." Rather, "whosoever" is an English word used to express a Greek phrase that is difficult to render in English. (See, James White's Does Jn 3:16 Debunk Calvinism).
RomansGalatians 1 year ago
I heard Kenneth Copeland say, "if you study out that greek word 'whosoever' you will find that it absolutely means 'whosoever'" Then, he went on to emphasise how broad and encompasing the greek word was.
However, the phrase
"WHOSOEVER beliefes in Him should not perish . . ." literally rendered is: "[in order that] every 'the one believing' in him not to perish . . " or, with a little translating "in order that every believing one shall not perish . . ."
RomansGalatians 1 year ago
John 3:18 goes on to say "but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed . . ."
Conclusion: How is it such a loving thing FOR THE UNBELIEVERS that God gave His Son and proclaimed it to the ends of the earth? To them, it is their condemnation, the chief evidence at their final trial.
Anyone who believes that God's love in 3:16 means also UNBELIEVERS, need only read down to v. 18 to see that such SPECIFICALLY does not apply to UNBELIEVERS.
RomansGalatians 1 year ago
@RomansGalatians
"How is it such a loving thing FOR THE UNBELIEVERS that God gave His Son and proclaimed it to the ends of the earth? "
It's not loving at all! Geez, and I thought skepticism was a virtue. Apparently God doesn't think so.
meangreen4321 1 year ago
@meangreen4321
God also keeps unbelievers alive, gives them everything they have, and owes them nothing.
They should be thankful that they draw a breath every day....we all should.
rpavich 1 year ago
@rpavich
I agree with you. God owes us nothing. Our life is a gift that we should be thankful for, though sometimes that life is also full of pain and suffering. We had no choice to be here, none of us do, so to be born into an eternal curse, of which only some people will be saved is absolutely cruel.
meangreen4321 1 year ago
@meangreen4321
I guess it depends on how you look at it...you must not believe that man is guilty of sin against a perfect and Holy God...and that man deserves whatever punishment he gets....
I do...so my outlook is just the opposite; i believe that God is just in punishing all mankind...and he's more than kind to rescue some from that punishment.
rpavich 1 year ago
@rpavich
thanks for your objectivity. You're right, I don't accept that we're under the curse of a holy God, who views us as "objects of wrath". This is mostly because I view the Bible critically and not as infallible.
meangreen4321 1 year ago
@meangreen4321
True....exactly.
Our "worldviews" derive their ultimate authority in different places, our "starting presuppositions are different so our conclusions are different.
Anyway...have a good day...
rpavich 1 year ago
It is very important for the glory of God that the unbelievers hear the gospel, so that they are utterly without excuse before the Lord. Thus, His justice is totally without refute, and God is glorified even in the destruction of the wicked.
People think that knowledge of Christ is a good thing. But for unbelievers, it is a terrible, terrible thing, to have known clearly and to have rejected. See, Hebrews 10:29-31.
RomansGalatians 1 year ago
Rom 10:12-18 "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For 'whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.' How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? . . . But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, 'Lord, who has believed our report?' . . . But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: 'Their sound has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world."
RomansGalatians 1 year ago
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Come to think of it, John 3 :16 refutes another Christian doctrine i.e. "The only Son of God". Begotten means Jesus claimed to be the only [born] Son of God because Adam was the first [created] son of God Luke 3:38
yarrw 1 year ago
Come to think of it, John 3 :16 refutes another Christian doctrine i.e. "The only Son of God" because begotten means Jesus claimed to be the only [born] Son of God because Adam was the first [created] son of God Luke 3:38
yarrw 1 year ago
This is another verse where the KJV neglected to replace perish with hell.
yarrw 1 year ago
Calvinists want to have their cake, or their false god, and eat it to; God causes everything because God is Sovereign, Sovereign, Sovereign--but is not responsible for evil. Calvinism is not only heretical, it is evil Why anyone would want to believe in it is beyond my Catholic Imagination. I can guess though--it ironically appeals to the more power hungry and elitist elements in human nature caused by Original Sin.
RPenta 1 year ago
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@BradSSFL ' "The LORD bless you and keep you; the LORD make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you; the LORD turn his face toward you and give you peace." ' Numbers 6:24-26
sonofmyrighthandbjh 1 year ago
Romans 5:1
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
MODERATECALVINISM 1 year ago
It is your choice if you want to go to heaven or hell,God do not send any one to hell.yu choice God or hell that your choice live acording to the word and act on it.
27chantale 1 year ago
@27chantale Amen. We indeed have free will. Yes, John 3:16 (and the rest of the Bible) refutes Calvinism--- a satanic doctrine and one that evaporates when confronted by God's Word, just as any other heresy (Lutheranism, this "purpose-driven" babble, etc.).
The "T" and "U" of "TULIP" theology are correct. The rest is incorrect. As I said in an essay once, it's lip service. No more wit, though; this topic is eternally important. Calvin's doctrine is simply not of God. Don't defend the liar.
BradSSFL 1 year ago
What the heck is all the fuss about?Calvinism seems pretty biblical to me.
Jesus himself said no one can come to God unless God draws him, so why is it that God drew someone like..oh say, Martin Luther and not all other people?Jesus also told his disciples that hey had NOT chosen him,but he had chosen them.Like the apostle Paul for example-by his free will,he chose to persecute the church,nevertheless,God had other plans for him,even though he rejected the gospel.This seems simple.
GodLovesUs100 1 year ago
@GodLovesUs100 Your tone isn't Christian, and certainly, neither is your doctrine. Jesus died for all, not for some, and if He were to decide who became saved and who wouldn't, that action would contradict His entire nature and the need for the Crucifixion to begin with!
If there were no free will, there would be no sin in the world.
God does DRAW us to Him, but He does not make the DECISION to be saved for us--- and if Calvin's right, there IS no decision to begin with! CONTRADICTIONS!!!
BradSSFL 1 year ago
@BradSSFL No it would not,Jesus himself said he lays down his life for his sheep and that he was NOT praying for the world.If Jesus already atoned for a person who goes to Hell's heart,why would they be paying for their sins AGAIN in Hell?If God only draws a sinner to him,the sinner will then hate him more because they love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil and reject light,so it is a work of God when one's heart is converted...a person is spiritually DEAD prior to it.
GodLovesUs100 1 year ago
I am going to send you a message..God bless.
GodLovesUs100 1 year ago
@GodLovesUs100 Calvinism IS biblical and there is no reason for you to debate with BradSSFL because it most likely will get neither of you anywhere. Best thing to do is ignore his comments.
HDell1994 1 year ago
@HDell1994 Yeah I see that more and more, I mean maybe something will get through to people.I didn't have much of an issue understanding the doctrine but thanks for the advice...God bless you.:)
GodLovesUs100 1 year ago
@GodLovesUs100 No problem, and God bless you too.
HDell1994 1 year ago
Calvanism and armainism is both a waste of man's ability to follow him.
If you had a God that knows every move and thing a person will do his whole life and knew it 2000 years ago. He does not need election or decision at all but just knows flate out what you will accept and not accept. If he knew what you will accept 2000 years ago calvinism and aremanism is just a waste of time thinking about. These two item that are discussed is just a joke to me to think about.
turtle4aire 1 year ago
@turtle4aire Yes, it seems like you refuted arminism but you still didn't refute Calvinism yet.
HDell1994 1 year ago
Those who think that men are so strong that God cannot go against their will to save them or keep them saved think that God is a weak and incipient God who is no stronger than man. What kind of a simp god do you worship? I'm so glad I worship the great and awesome God of the Bible. The MOST HIGH-A God of wrath and love.
reginaDexant 1 year ago
I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy." Deuteronomy 32:39-42
sonofmyrighthandbjh 1 year ago
@sonofmyrighthandbjh First of all, you sniveling punk and liar, you need a new screen name, you decrepit piece of trash. Sound harsh? I'm bashing what needs to be bashed, including your character.
You're taking verses out of context, liar, so take your liberal lies out of here and present the truth and show some objectivity in the meantime. You probably think the liberalism that permeates our society is objective, huh?
God is not self-contradictory.... unlike the postmodernism of today.
BradSSFL 1 year ago
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sonofmyrighthandbjh 1 year ago
@BradSSFL ' "The LORD bless you and keep you; the LORD make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you; the LORD turn his face toward you and give you peace." ' Numbers 6:24-26
sonofmyrighthandbjh 1 year ago
@BradSSFL Your tone isn't Christian, and certainly, neither is your doctrine.
HDell1994 1 year ago
@HDell1994 I guess you think the Lord's tone wasn't Christian when He made a scene in that church that time, huh? Do you think really that having a passion for God is NOT Christian????? As for my doctrine, I would expect your response-- since you're a Calvinist. Calvin preaches that we have no free will, that God chooses who goes to Heaven and who doesn't, amidst many other lies. Calvinism contradicts the entire Bible, and Martin Luther did the same. They're like Osteen, Warren, Hagee, etc..
BradSSFL 1 year ago
@BradSSFL Well actually all I did was quote what you said to someone else who seemed to have a better tone than yours. I'm not going to get into arguing about Calvinism though, not because I'm afraid or don't believe that I have scriptures to back it up, but rather because I see that the both of us are hardened in our own beliefs and I would say that your doctrine contradicts the Bible too. I could possibly believe that your doctrine is worse than you believe mine is. So this is pointless. Gby.
HDell1994 1 year ago
Do we really know the God of the Bible? "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever. If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment;
sonofmyrighthandbjh 1 year ago
Or how about when the Lord caused the Midianites to kill each other during battle? Or how about the 50,000 men of Bethshemesh God killed for looking into the Ark of the Covenant? Is this the 'god' you worship? What about the men in the New Testament that were blinded by God so that they could not believe in Jesus for salvation? Matthew 11:25, John 12:40
sonofmyrighthandbjh 1 year ago
Did God so love the world when he burned to death all the people of Sodom and Gomorah? Including women, children, and babies? Except Lot and his family. Did God so love the world when he killed all the firstborn of Egypt? Did God so love the world when he commanded Israel to utterly destroy all in the Land of Heshbon? Including their "little ones"? Or Bashan? Or the Anakim? Or the Canaanites? Or the Perizzites? Or the Hazorites? Or the Moabites?
sonofmyrighthandbjh 1 year ago
@sonofmyrighthandbjh Yes, He did. As you fail to admit/understand, liar, love and tolerance are complete opposites. God's fury is every bit as much a trait of His love as any other trait.
So, you think He's supposed to tolerate evil? To tolerate something is to be an accomplice to it.
BradSSFL 1 year ago
A question for all of those who oppose Calvinism, and Mark Kielars interpretation. Did God so love the world when he caused a flood to destroy every human being, except Noah and his family. This included, children, infants, and the unborn. Did God so love the world when he commanded Israel to slaughter an entire people group? The Amalekites? This including their women, children, and babies.
sonofmyrighthandbjh 1 year ago
@sonofmyrighthandbjh John Calvin was nothing but a satanic doctrine-spreading individual who sorrily tried to call himself a man of God. His doctrine might be the most-satanic of them all, though Martin Luther, Rick Warren, Joel Osteen, etc. are there with him.
God creates life and therefore has the right to take it away. Don't you DARE try to say otherwise, and as for contradictions, God has none. The postmodern society of today does. (You're probably pro-abortion.)
You need a new ID.
BradSSFL 1 year ago
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@BradSSFL ' "The LORD bless you and keep you; the LORD make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you; the LORD turn his face toward you and give you peace." ' Numbers 6:24-26
sonofmyrighthandbjh 1 year ago
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@BradSSFL "The LORD bless you and keep you; the LORD make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you; the LORD turn his face toward you and give you peace." ' Numbers 6:24-26
sonofmyrighthandbjh 1 year ago
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@BradSSFL The LORD bless you and keep you; the LORD make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you; the LORD turn his face toward you and give you peace." ' Numbers 6:24-26
sonofmyrighthandbjh 1 year ago
Google this guy before you listen to him. He is known as a liar and a twister of truth for his role in swindling non-profit organizations out of money in his fake PBS documentaries. He sued Walter Cronkite after Cronkite learned that his "news program" was actually paid advertising. If the world knows a man as a liar and a cheat, he is no less in the house of God. A scripture by scripture analysis of his programs shows that he distorts the Bible, also.
1donagin 1 year ago
Just listen to how that sounds. 'Does John 3:16 refute calvinism?' This arrogance is beyond comprehensible and is a slap in Lord Jesus' face. What you're actually saying is that God's own words do not hold up to your foolish calvinist beliefs. Woe to you. Repent and believe the true gospel of Jesus Christ before it is too late!
mikaelstoneface 1 year ago
I've spent the last 3 days running to every bookstore I could find, looked at every concordance, dictionary, etc and not one has the definition "believers" for world. Blue letter Bible has this on their site. I e-mailed them and they said it was from the Lockman's NASB Concordance. Well, I bought one. Guess what they rendering of the word world or kosmos means: World. Why do you have to lie to justify your position? Because it is just not Scriptural.
OpCornerstone 1 year ago
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@OpCornerstone I'm sorry, but your post is just sad. Surely, having watched the video, you have absorbed the point that the meaning of the word 'κόσμος' changes according to context. Thayer's definition 8b is:
of believers only, John 1:29; John 3:16; John 3:17; John 6:33; John 12:47 1Cor 4:9; 2Cor 5:19.
See, Biblical exegesis really isn't all THAT difficult. Once one takes off the lenses of tradition, the Truth becomes clear.
curvalecce 1 year ago
@OpCornerstone
OpCornerstone did you even watch this video? He quotes directly from Strong's Concordance.
sonofmyrighthandbjh 1 year ago
What's funny is the deception used by Kielar to justify his position. This is what the Calvinists are doing to win over people to their theology. They are changing the word of God to deceive people into thinking that "world" means something it don't.
OpCornerstone 1 year ago
Its funny that the problem seen is the meaning of a word? Are you kidding me? Let forget the validity of whether or not this book is true or not. Do you know how many times the bible was translated before it reached english? between ancient hebrew, aramaic, greek, latin... meaning is lost through translations; of any text. You sure any of these quote were the original meaning. Can you read ancient hebrew?
falconfira 1 year ago
holinesspentecostal -
Could you please reference the work where Martin Luther teaches baptismal regeneration?
Soldier7of7Christ 1 year ago
You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! Yet you refuse to come to me to receive this life (Jn 5:39-40). The truth does not save - Jesus does! Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesnt really know very much
(1 Co 8:2).
harvestdoing 1 year ago
@harvestdoing
Jn 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Jn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Ps 25:10 All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies. Jn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
HermitintheRain 1 year ago
calvinism is false doctrine.God does love the whole world.
ctsfinestjon 1 year ago
Many Christians have become so bogged down in the study of and arguments about matters of doctrine that they lose sight of the biblical seek and ye shall find truth for themselves. Doctrines, which are of man, not God, can be dangerous and misleading. It this were not so, why are there so many different groups all adamant that truth is only found through believing in the doctrine encouraged by their particular denomination?
sisterspure 1 year ago
@sisterspure A doctrine is not necessarily "of man." A man indeed can preach sound doctrine. Unfortunately, most do not. Calvin, a satanic individual, certainly didn't.
BradSSFL 1 year ago
Vine's Expository Dictionary also contradicts Mark's statement that the Greek word "kosmos" refers to just the elect out of the world using The "Enhanced" Strong's Lexicon (see previous comment). Vine's says, "by His coming into the world He was the light for all men [John 1] ver. 10; 3:16, 17 (thrice), 19; 4:42 and frequently in Rom., 11:12, 15, where the meaning is that all who will may be reconciled (cp. 2Cor 5:19);"
harvestdoing 1 year ago
Mark, in this video mistakenly says that Strong's Greek Concordance has 8 definitions for the word "kosmos" - You meant to say, The Enhanced Strong's Lexicon which includes Strong's Numbers with Brown, Driver, Briggs and Thayer lexicons Definitions are found in Strong's Expanded Dictionary which is based on the Thayer and Brown, Driver, Briggs lexicons. This is important because the 8 definitions do not come from James Strong.
harvestdoing 1 year ago
BrotherRyanHicks chews you Calvinists up and spits your false doctrines OUT! Watch his video "Calvanism Believes God Decrees Murder, Rape, and EVERY SIN!
His one called "Did Martin Luther Believe in Faith Alone?" was also GREAT!
holinesspentecostal 1 year ago
Anyone who really wants to know what Martin Luther thought on faith and human free-will would do MUCH better reading Luther's 'On the Bondage of the Will' (a reply to Erasmus), where Luther tells us humans are too bound in sin to be capable of saving ourselves - Salvation is purely by God's good pleasure through the awakening of the soul. Sounds reformed to me!
curvalecce 1 year ago
Martin Luther taught baptismal regeneration which is heresy! Of course this explains why so many reformers baptized infants even though such a practice is NEVER found in the scriptures!
holinesspentecostal 1 year ago
Lane, You mistakingly say that Strong's Greek Lexicon has 8 definitions for the word "kosmos" - You meant to say, The Enhanced Strong's Lexicon which includes Strong's Numbers with Brown, Driver, Briggs and Thayer lexicons Definitions are found in Strong's Expanded Dictionary which is based on the Thayer and Brown, Driver, Briggs lexicons. This is important because the 8 definitions do not come from James Strong.
harvestdoing 1 year ago
John 3:16 still refutes calvinism not becaues of the word world in it but because of the word whosoever. The word whosoever means not necessarily all men but that if anyone believes. This means if anyone believes thus God issues an open invitation to everyone. Whether all men believe or not is up to man. Some believe and some don't.
cubed07 2 years ago
The word whosoever is not in the Greek text... the Text literally reads "All the believing"
DorianAnthony777 2 years ago
Then do all men have the chance to hear the gospel? If your answer is no, then is God unjust because they don't? Is there another way to be saved than through the gospel? If your answer is yes, then there is another way to be saved besides believing in Jesus.
UrbanGypsy2 2 years ago
I believe all men do get the chance to hear the gospel, God makes it clear that man will be without excuse on judgement day. Also God gave man a conscious, the law, the written Word, and other resources which show how men have sinned and are in need of a savior.
cubed07 2 years ago
Obviously, all men DO NOT have the chance to hear the gospel. Did the American Indians hear the gospel? If you are a Mormon you might say yes, but then there is no proof of this at all and there are many others who have not heard. We are all responsible, yes, but we do not all hear the gospel. What is your definition of "gospel?"
UrbanGypsy2 2 years ago
Are you saying that God can't appear to people and reveal Himself in a dream or a vision? Just because they haven't heard the gospel from men doesn't mean that they haven't heard the gospel.
cubed07 2 years ago
@cubed07 John 3:16 does not say that believing is up to man. It says that everyone who believes will be saved, it does not say who will believe.
Rhuanjl 2 years ago
Well, you asked me a question privately, but I couldn't answer you because there was no "reply" button.
I do believe that some people can meet Christ in other ways. He appeared to Paul, and I hear He appears to some in places like India. But guess what? HE CHOSE THEM, THEY DIDN'T SEEK HIM FIRST! He came to save His own.
UrbanGypsy2 1 year ago
Chosing implies that the one being chosen accepts it. Whether your talking about election or being chosen, we must reciprocate in kind. God elects all to be saved and desires all, but we must accept this election in order to become elect.
cubed07 1 year ago
First, what Strong's concordance is he using. I don't have those 8 definitions on mine. Second, he seems to be trying to confuse the issue by putting doubt on what the word "world", as meaning "all people". Third, as such, he offers no contextual proof that the word "world" can only mean "believers only", he merely states that the context does not support an all-inclusive meaning.
nbanuchu 2 years ago
It's a mystery to me why Geisler receives so much respect, when his YouTube videos reveal a blustering old hypocrite both unable to understand plain scripture, and very obviously unwilling for anyone to check for themselves.
curvalecce 2 years ago
Calvanism is a cult! They are the only ones who have the "keys" to understand John 3:16. They admit that "world" could mean "all men", but take you on a rabbit trail to convince us that it means only the believers. The word "whosoever" sheds light on the word "world". The scriptures teach us to "love not the world" (1 John 2:15). Does this mean we are to hate "believers"? That would be the meaning if we used the Calvanist's explanation John 3:16!
holinesspentecostal 2 years ago
Aren't you reinforcing the point that 'world' can be translated in different ways (which is sort of the point of the whole video)?
And doesn't Ephesians 2:8 tell us that faith itself is a gift through Grace, and not earned through our own efforts or choices?
curvalecce 2 years ago
Why do you appeal to my intellect? Are you not trusting in your works of "convincing me of calvanism" to save me from my sin (of not acceptin calvanism). Why do you witness? If God does it all without our heart turning to him in repentence and faith, then why preach, teach, warn, pray, ect...? Are these not all works that cannot save? Are men born to burn forever without hope? Was the middle wall of petition not broken down in Eph. 2:14 in order to give the Gentiles and Jew access to God?
holinesspentecostal 2 years ago
Did we not have to choose whether or not to take advantage of the holy of holies that was made accessible by the renting in twain of the veil of separation? I couldn't rend that veil. I couldn't tear down that middle wall of petition, but I could call upon the name of the Lord, and throw myself at the mercy of thrice holy God. Could I not "come boldly to the "throne of Grace" and obtain mercy and find grace to help in my time of need? Is it a "work" to "come" and "reason together" with Him?
holinesspentecostal 2 years ago
I'm defending the doctrine of Grace because it is the only consistent Scriptural theology. Any 'struggle' is not between intellects (I'd lose!) but to clarify what God is telling us, which means cutting through a lot of tradition.
Your point about human inability is well-expressed, but you seem to join it with the idea free, rational people might wish for eternal punishment. The latter concept is logically incoherent.
Salvation is and always has been a matter of God's free Grace.
curvalecce 2 years ago
The Gospel message is all about REPENTENCE and FAITH. Jesus preached REPENT. John preached REPENT. Peter preached REPENT at pentecost to the lost. Calvanists have divorced repentance from the message of the Gospel, Why would repentance be deemed nessessary if one is elected without it.
holinesspentecostal 2 years ago
We agree then that repentance is at the heart of the Gospel message. But what if we acknowledge that repentance is impossible unless God acts directly in our lives?
What if John 6:65 is true, and nobody can repent and lift themselves from sin unless God wills it?
Thus Election and true repentance are the same thing, both under the sovereign power of the Almighty.
curvalecce 2 years ago 2
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holinesspentecostal 2 years ago
You must reconcile John 6:65 with Matt. 11:28 "Come unto me, ALL YE that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." It didn't say, "All ye that are elected"! We all laboured under the heavy yolk of sin and false religion! Opportunity for repentance has been granted to ALL by the Father who is not willing that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance! Noah built a big ark! Everyone was invited to get in, but only 8 souls heeded the call and were saved.
holinesspentecostal 2 years ago
I think to understand Jesus words in Matthew 11:28-30 is shown in Matthew 11:27
"no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son CHOOSES to reveal him"
Re: Noahs Ark, look at Genesis 6:15. God gives the dimensions of the Ark. How much space did God allow for extra people? God chose Noah to live, and the sinful to die. He is sovereign (Psalm 135:6).
But was there human choice in Jeremiah 1:5 and Acts 9:36? Could Paul have said "no thanks"?
curvalecce 2 years ago
Why does Jesus chide the cities in Matt. 11:21 for not repenting if it were not possible for them to do so? That makes no sense. Sodom would have repented if they had heard and seen the same works. Yes, Paul could have said no just the same as Agrippa did and just like I did for a time. Paul understood that he could become a "castaway" after having preached to others. Who did Jesus reveal the Father too? All that saw him! He that hath seen me hath seen the Father. Jn 14:9. Many saw and rejected!
holinesspentecostal 2 years ago
If God made a special effort to save those among His chosen people, does that make Him unjust? Peter and Andrew repented, so the mission was not a complete failure...
But what about our old friend Matt 11:27? The granting of repentance is God's GIFT.
You believe Paul, Moses, etc. could have refused God's call. What about Lazarus? Did he REALLY have a chance to reject?
But read John 10:25-30. The Elect hear and obey, the others are left in angry desperation.
curvalecce 2 years ago
The problem between us is the way we define the sovereignty of God. You see God's will as only a concrete decretive will, while I see it as not only decretive, but also perceptive and permissive. No matter how "calvanistic" you are, you are able to sin and do contrary to the decretive and perceptive will of God! While God allows you to choose sin (through his permissive will), you will certainly face the consequences for your actions. You say that Moses had no choice, yet he disobeyed God.
holinesspentecostal 2 years ago
The scriptures are clear in Jn 1:11-13 that Jesus came to "HIS OWN", and "HIS OWN" received him not BUT, AS MANY AS RECEIVED HIM, to THEM gave he power to become the son's of God, even to them that believe on his name. Vs 13 lets us know that these are born not of....but "of God". Only those who received him and believed on him were born of God, even among his OWN. As for Jn. 10:25-30, do you always hear and obey? Have you perfectly "followed" him? Or do you sin a little every day?
holinesspentecostal 2 years ago
In the context, it's fairly obvious that Jesus' 'own' are the Jewish people, the only ones graced with the knowledge of the Almighty. The disciples were Jewish, as was Paul, but their birth into Salvation was an act of God, not of personal will.
In answer to your point on John 10:25-30; have you read Romans 7:14-25? The enemy's arm is long, and his power real, even with men like Paul.
I would, however, like to know if you feel Lazarus could have refused to come forth. If not, why not?
curvalecce 2 years ago
On this point we agree! Salvation was an act of God, however, it was in response to those who received him and believed on him. Their salvation was not the results of blood (being born into it naturally) or the will of flesh or will of man (no man could decree this or establish this work). The new birth is a work of God in response to those who "receive him". Are you saying that Satan can make us live contrary to the perfect decretive will of God? Would that not make him greater than God?
holinesspentecostal 2 years ago
How can the dead soul pick itself up and worship the Almighty?
Have you also considered that, by your system, if salvation is merely a human decision, then losing it is just as easy? Logically you have no security in Christ, given you might change your mind at any point - making Christ's sacrifice for you pointless.
Re: your second point, human beings have chosen satan, and we are living through the results of that choice. God remains sovereign, however.
curvalecce 2 years ago
Ask that question to the man of Gadara or the woman of Canaan. Mark 5:6 tells us of a devil possessed man who worshipped before he was delivered. The word worshipped is the same word used in Rev. 5:14 to describe what the 24 elders are doing before the throne night and day! The word is used in many other passages concerning worship. Yes, I have considered that losing salvation is just as easy as making a decision not to follow Christ. We have many examples of such in the NT! Demas, Judus,..
holinesspentecostal 2 years ago
The word is 'προσκυνέω', a word occurring about 60 times in the NT. It's meaning ranges from 'kneeling in homage' to 'kissing a hand towards someone'. Thus the use of the same term in Mark and Revelation doesn't seem to me to really say much, per se.
Judas betrayed Jesus, in order that God's purpose in Salvation should occur. He is sovereign.
Joseph's brothers betrayed Joseph, but read Joseph's words in Gen 45:7-8. God does ALL things to His Glory.
curvalecce 2 years ago
I agree that worship takes on many various forms, but the fact is, you insinuated that a dead soul could not worship the Almighty. It is clear that they can! No one argues that God cannot or has not (in his sovereignty) foretold or decreed that certain men or women do certain things (he hardened Pharoah's heart), however, I refuse to believe that every soul is decreed doomed or saved by the sovereignty of God. Even Moses could intercede for the people after God DECREED that they be destroyed!
holinesspentecostal 2 years ago
Calvanism is all about shifting the blame for man's sin either on to the "Sovereignty of God" or on to the Devil, while man is not directly held responsible. If God made certain people to be vile and wicked, then why do you waist you time trying to convert them? Take the Primitive Baptist approach and let God do it ALL! As for Lazarus, this is doting about foolish questions which gender strife. This is like asking, "Could Jesus have Sinned?" He didn't, and that's what matters!
holinesspentecostal 2 years ago
Calvin made it clear the responsibility for human sin lies entirely with human beings. But you assume people dislike sin, when experience suggests otherwise.
Reformed people trry to convert firstly because of Matt 28:19-20, but also because the Elect live in all categories of humanity ('all men'). While the life-changing aspects of Grace are obvious, knowledge of the identity of the Elect is not given.
Giving all the credit for salvation to God, not our own efforts, IS giving Him all.
curvalecce 2 years ago
How can the responsibility for sin lie on the back of the sinner if Calvin is correct about the nature of God's sovereignty? If everything is purely decretive? God designed that certain men live sinful and die lost and burn in hell forever to satisfy his own pleasure. I'd say that makes God out to be a tyrannical sinner himself! Calvin is speaking out of both sides of his mouth.
holinesspentecostal 2 years ago
God takes no pleasure in sin, or in punishing it (Eze 18:32, Lam 3:33). God is love (1 John 4:8) and perfect justice (Deu 32:4). There is no badness in love (1 Cor 13:6).
God knows from eternity those who will love Him truly (Eph 1:4-6). The point is that humans are naturally SLAVES of sin (Rom 6:17-18), and have no genuine inherent freedom to begin with. From this catastrophe, God lifts forth His Beloved to be with Him. That's love.
curvalecce 2 years ago
No one is arguing about the foreknowledge of God in this discussion! His beloved are those that "believe on him, do his commandments, and obey him". If we can trust an esoteric feeling or witness that we are the "Beloved" and "Chosen" of God, then what is the pupose of the Scripture? Why did God waist his time revealing to us his word. Why did he have to purchase his "so- called" elect? This makes God out to be a "respector of persons".
holinesspentecostal 2 years ago
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holinesspentecostal 2 years ago
Romans 7 is Paul's dealing with "them that know the law". He is describing his life and testemony under the law. Romans 8 brings Paul out of that struggle and brings him into the normal Christian experiance where, "There is therefore NOW NO condemnation to them which ARE in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh (Rom. 7) but after the Spirit (Rom. 8). Rom. 7 is the testimony of a man living under law. Paul understood that struggle more so than anyone else.
holinesspentecostal 2 years ago
And the key word is "granted."
For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, (Philippians 1:29 NASB)
Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
(Matthew 13:11 NASB)
And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
(John 6:65 NASB)
UrbanGypsy2 1 year ago
Absolutely! It is granted to all who will REPENT and BELIEVE on the LORD JESUS CHRIST! I have no problem with that! I grant my children things as well when they obey me. OBEY THE GOSPEL and you too will understand the mysteries of the kingdom!
holinesspentecostal 1 year ago
The death and resurrection of Jesus on the cross makes it possible for men to believe in Him. That is where the granting comes from, Christ did all the work and he grants us eternal life for chosing him.
cubed07 1 year ago 2
How then do we interpret the Biblical witness that faith is a GIFT? Your depiction of Jesus as a passive beggar hoping passersby will choose Him is quite different from the Bible's depiction in, say, Rev 19:11-15, Heb 1:2-3, or John 1:3.
No, Jesus is the Almighty of Rev 1:8. His choice is certain and eternal, and He NEVER fails.
curvalecce 1 year ago
The Bible doesn't say that faith is a gift, if your referring to Eph 2:8-9 it's grace that's the gift not faith. The fact that you can believe in anything you want is proof that we all are born with faith, we just chose to put it in different things. We all have faith in something, but it's important to put faith in Jesus Christ as He is the beggar waiitng for those to chose Him. But that same beggar had the authority over sin and death so He's all powerful now all man must do is believe.
cubed07 1 year ago
Nope. The gift of saving faith comes through Grace AKA God's sovereign choice. The first commandment recognises the many false gods that exist in our world, but the faith that Jesus is referring to in John 3:16 is given purely by God.
Read Eph 2:5 - we are DEAD without Grace. Can a dead person believe? Can a dead person do anything? Faith, the life of Salvation, is a gift. God is sovereign.
Thus Jesus is NEVER a beggar, but always All-Mighty God. He decides, in perfect justice.
curvalecce 1 year ago
Eph 2:5, Dead without Grace, it's talking about perishing for eternal life in hell. Paul later on makes the point that if Christ didn't die than our faith is in vain and we are codemned to eternal punishment in hell. Eph 2:5, grace is a free gift from God that we don't deserve. This gift is salvation which was made possible only through Christ's death and rez on the cross. Faith no where is being said that it's the gift given by God.
cubed07 1 year ago
@cubed07 2Pet 1:1b to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: "obtained" is a passive word in the Greek which implies something given. Jesus being the Author and Finisher of our faith (Heb 12:2) having accomplished this on the cross has bestowed upon us His faith. All that we have is given to us by God the Father in Jesus Christ. Grace applied to the heart that comes by faith through the hearing of the word by the Spirit.
HermitintheRain 1 year ago
@curvalecce Jesus loves anal
nilbud 1 year ago
I don't disagree with Jesus power and keep in mind he chose to give all that up and come down to be made lesser than the angels. Read Hebrews ch 1-3. However, your verses don't say that faith is a gift from God so your wrong that faith is a gift given to only the predestined.
cubed07 1 year ago
Obviously the Son chose to reveal him to every man. Titus 2:11-12 "For the Grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL MEN, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we SHOULD (not WOULD) live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world" Oh, I forgot, Spurgeon says all only means a few or parts of various groups. Let God be TRUE and every MAN a liar! Grace teaches, but does not force!
holinesspentecostal 2 years ago
I think we're going round and round on this subject of 'all men'. Given only those chosen by Jesus CAN hear His message, the only way to understand 'all men' is that Jesus is speaking to all of humanity, and no longer only the Jews.
You talk of Grace forcing; are lovers FORCED to kiss each other? Grace is given in love, and the Elect heart reacts accordingly. The reprobate is not capable (John 8:43)
curvalecce 2 years ago
Calvanism contridicts itself my friend. You claim that people are born "elected" and have to be made aware of that fact, yet you also teach that man is totally deprived and unable to reach God. This is not logical! Why don't the elect love God from birth? Why do they have to be made aware of their election? Why do they sin before, during, and after they are made aware of their election? How do you know that you are saved? What if you are not really one of the elect? This is assurance? lol...!
holinesspentecostal 2 years ago
Good point. A common complaint of Reformed evangelists is that the Elect do not glow green, or otherwise make themselves obvious.
Your second point, about security, is also good, but look at it another way. A Reformed person knows God CANNOT fail, whereas an Arminian worships a deity always begging for their worship, and who they can (and often do) abandon as they wish. Which of these is the ALL-MIGHTY of the Bible? Read Job 38:1-41:34. Which God is speaking?
curvalecce 2 years ago
God has always demanded worship! He is a jealous God! God cannot fail, but MAN CAN! God cannot fail his promises and always keeps his side of the covenant. We are the ones who seem to have trouble keeping our end of the deal. The Bible is full of "if...then..."! We must obey the "ifs" before God is obligated to the "thens". The New Covenant is no different. Romans 10:9-10.
holinesspentecostal 2 years ago
Okay, I will respond to this point. If Jesus died for all humans (as you argue), then every person in hell after His death represents God's failure, doesn't it? He just wasn't able to convince them, flatter them, or otherwise influence them to acknowledge the saving power of His Blood.
If God cannot fail, how can we explain anyone going to hell, if Christ died so that all would be saved? God NEVER fails to save those He loves. Ever.
curvalecce 2 years ago
Every person in hell tonight is there because of the reasons stated in Romans 1. They do not like to retain God in their knowledge! They have become VAIN! Man refuses to see his need for a Savior! Men love the "pleasures of sin"! Even your "so-called" elected ones loved the pleasures of sin! We were all born into the same condition! None of us were born with a "holiness" spoon in our mouths! Yet you claim that God only loves certain sinners and hates others! Is God a respector of persons?
holinesspentecostal 2 years ago
"He just wasn't able to convince them, flatter them or otherwise influence them to acknowledge the saving power of His Blood"! You say that this makes God a failure. First of all Jn 3:16 says "should not perish" not "would not perish'! Secondly, Matt. 23:37 and Luke 13:34 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would NOT"!
holinesspentecostal 2 years ago
Now let me ask you a question that is just as ignorant as the one you just possed!
Was Jesus a failure when he touched the blind man and he saw men as trees walking?
This is just about the level of questions that you and every Calvanist that I've ever talked to have possed to me.
You ought to hear the funny questions that the Oneness Pentecostals can come up with regarding the Godhead!
If the Holy Ghost moved on Mary and she conceived, does that make the Holy Ghost the Father?
lol....
holinesspentecostal 2 years ago