Red or pink? - 2011 Shanghai Masters Final

[lesduffy]

Looks like red first to me.

[mprimecoleman]

Clearly red first. For it to hit pink first, then red, it would have to hit pink and travel backwards to hit red. Had white hit red second, it would have traveled the opposite direction after hitting pink, which it did not.

[stiegolino]

I don´t get the problem, what is williams complaining about? The referee calls foul and a miss, so if williams doesn´t want to play on he could let him replace the balls and Selby would have to try again... please correct me if im wrong

[JKEW]

So, in summary, Williams can tell at eye level from 20 feet away? Riiiiiiigggghhtt. TV replays prove Selby right. Williams you lose on more than one count

[beansterman1998]

If you are over 9 and can't work out this within half a second, you are an idiot...

[LouisMoor3]

I follow football and dont understand this, What has gone wrong?

[Dandramere]

@LouisMoor3 There is a dispute as to whether he hit the pink or red first, hitting the pink first would mean it would be a foul.

[Anonomousxxx]

williams is an idiot

[PomBare]

Ok, clearly it hit the red first

[cazmaj]

It is very difficult to tell.. I would say red first though.

[deadliftdux]

red. as Ronnie would say 'you need to get your eyes tested'

[beansterman1998]

The white ball ALWAYS moves AWAY from whichever it hit first. Therefore it was red first.

[mr2gti]

He hit the white first, clear as day.

[gerv55]

WTF is that referee shouting about quiet when theyre just looking at a replay? I swear that guys the most humourless arsehole on the circuit.

[ambrozik96]

@allooshism you said that because you have seen that red ball was first, or rather you're mark selby fan?

[keflar5]

Red first and I don't like Selby much

[xboxlivegstar11]

red

[calbladeboy]

Anyone know the simultaneous hit rule?

If the cue ball hits a ball on and a ball not on at what the referee decides is the same time, it is a foul shot.

However, as this happens so quickly it is almost impossible to tell with the naked eye. In my opinion the referee in this case should have free use of television slow - motion replays to determine the outcome of this particular shot.

P.S sorry if i bored you

[Snookbone]

@calbladeboy With a simultaneous hit, both object balls absorb the same amount of energy, so they move away at the same speed. In this case the referee would not be able to call a simultaneous hit since the pink moves much faster than the red. The most likely scenario looking at the reaction of the balls here is that he flicked the red first. Hope I could help a bit with this whole argument. Snooker makes physics fun! :)

[thebestsnookerplayer]

If the cue ball touches first the pink ball, the red ball is not move so MJW is not right

[cakesizcakes]

whats the point of hawk eye if u cant check shit like that

[sooperfukker]

LOL ! Red went away in an angle larger than 90degree from where the red came, so the pink ball MUST have been hit first.

[scratchsnooker]

Red.  Watch 1:47 of this video (an oddly coincidental number but eh). Use your brain.

[reidy276]

clear to see he hit the pink!

[themathsking]

in my opinion, i think for the route that the cue ball took from the top left cushion, the red is earlier on the route while the pink is the later one

just opinion, not saying i must be right

[cue1cole]

that was a nanosecond between hitting the red first... williams stop crying and take defeat... we know you dont like selby

[ariba1888]

Pink

[boogiefiend]

The laws of physics pronounce that it can only have been either the red first, or both at exactly the same instant. The odds of both at the exact same instant are astronomical. The fact that the red moved, but the white followed the pink says beyond any question that the white had to strike the red prior to the pink.

[Georgeous129]

red first. in the birds eye shot where they stop the footage you can see a gap between the pink and white when the red is hit. plus the fact that the red actually moved.

[DLPBurke]

The ref made an appalling decision which cost Williams the match. He had already called foul 3 times.

[1lufc4ever]

@DLPBurke Appalling decision? No! Wrong decision? Yes! The red ball was hit first, if both balls were hit simultaneously the red ball would have most likely been travelling in the direction that would have taken it to the other side of the black ball. Referees are only human and as much as I like Mark Williams, he should of kept his cool.

[1lufc4ever]

The three misse rule only comes into play if the player at the table can see a red and then misses twice consecutively, then on his third attempt he will be warned that if he misses for a third consecutive time the frame will be for-fitted.

[texanoiltycoon]

After watching the slow-mo, I am certain it hit the red first. However, at full speed and first glance it is impossible to tell. Despite this, Selby did the sporting thing (especially considering the delicate stage the match was at) and conceded the foul. Williams should have kept his mouth shut and his toys in the pram and carried on with the match. Snooker is a gentlemen's sport, one of only a few left in the world. It doesn't need people like him bringing it into disrepute.

[USofAndy]

The motion blur of the cueball indicates that the red was hit first. In the time that passed during the frame of contact in the overhead shot the cueball takes a slight v-shaped path - straight along it's normal path and finishing with a small upward movement after clipping the red first and then slowing after hitting the pink almost full ball.

You can come to the same conclusion after looking at both the red and pink balls in the same frame - the faster pink didn't move further than the red!

[USofAndy]

The motion blur of the cueball indicates that the red was hit first. In the time that passed during the frame of contact in the overhead shot the cueball takes a slight v-shaped path - straight along it's normal path and finishing with a small upward movement after clipping the red first and then slowing after hitting the pink almost full ball.

You can come to the same conclusion after looking at both the red and pink balls in the same frame - the faster pink didn't move further than the red!

[Johnpjc1985]

Pink first for me from that video

[sjcarson1976]

3:38 the red ball moves first - the fact it only glances the red is irrelevant - the red ball was hit and moved first! Williams was 43 points up and in with a clear chance to win the frame from that visit - but he blew it big time. He should be ashamed of himself.

[DLPBurke]

@sjcarson1976 It does not hit red first from that video, it looks more like simultaneous which is a foul.

[dreamygreen74]

In a freeze frame I had up of the white on the way to the red and pink after it hit the cushion, you can see 3 white balls due to the motion blurring. By looking down the screen with my eye right next to it (a bit like I do when lining up a shot on Xbox WCS) I can clearly see the white will hit the RED first. So as much as I loath the slovenly sly cocky smarmy twat that is Mark Selby, I'm afraid he won fair and square.

[555pontifex]

You can tell from the trajectory that the red took that it had to be red first. If it had hit pink first, red would have gone much farther left. You don't need freeze frame for that, just observe where the pink is relative to the red. QED.

[daveycable]

its red you moaning welsh prick!!

[veruss84]

absolutely red, no doubt at all. all this "slow it down, it hit pink first" is nonsense, I slowed it down and watch it close up on a massive TV. It hit red first, without doubt. If it moves both balls, it has to have hit the red first. it's PHYSICS.

WIlliams comes across like a whining girl. He should suck it up, final or no final..

[ssddcxzz]

lol totaly is RED man !!

[6anatolyy4]

fi dolla fi dolla!

[kieransimpsoniam]

each time ive seen it ive thought red first

[anthony90123]

definitely red first...: becoz the white was coming from the left hand side (on the screen), as long as the red moved it must be hit before the pink...wt i mean is the white could only simultaneously hit both balls when its coming from the 'middle' of two balls

[MrMattyvibes]

@anthony90123 The white stunned the pink first, which knocked the red on its trajectory angle, guaranteed. If you are not convinced, play and pause quickly zoomed in and you will know.

My iniaial thoughts were it brushed the red, but it did not upon very close inspection.

[MrMattyvibes]

@anthony90123 my initial thoughts were it brushed the red, but upon much closer inspection, it evidently did not.

[Shiplodicus]

Definitely pink first, just look at the two of them and see which goes first... pink.

[nostalgic64]

I was first thinking red. Now I'm going with PINK. Enlarging the screen and clicking play/pause/play/pause as quick as i can at 3:09 you see the pink move first then the red. Such a hard decision. I'm sure the answer will come out at some time. Maybe they won't want it to as this adds to the intrigue.

[nostalgic64]

@nostalgic64 You are such a blind twat. It was definitely RED - sorry Mark!

[nostalgic64]

@nostalgic64 Who are you calling a twat? lol.

[DanielKandiTV]

Red first. However much I wanted Williams to win, I really wanted to. but thats red first. No way from that angle, that the white comes, can it hit pink first and then move the red like that... Red first.. Period

[nuntana2]

Red first. Williams can't tell from where he was sat. From plan view, red was in front of pink, cue ball is diverted slightly by red, obviously strikes pink hardest because it was square on. If they're both hit at same time, that's not a foul. In any case, a miss was called and MW remained seated. Tough luck ole mate.

[alcan]

Re: If they're both hit at same time, that's not a foul

Correct. Although it is virtually certain one was definitely hit before the other... we might be talking nanoseconds or smaller. When it is so close that its not possible to tell which, then you have to give the player the benefit of the doubt. Williams can't possibly be sure of his assertion. From where he is sitting it looks like the pink was hit first. From some other seated angle it would look like the red was hit first.

[DLPBurke]

@alcan No not correct, a simultaneous hit is a foul.

[NoPressureCa]

Why does Williams ask to watch a replay, when Selby has already concede to the foul?

[mangleneeru]

if the pink was hit first, and the red second, the cue ball would have gone towards the black cushion

[dvdwu]

I remembered chinese media asked the chinese female ref, and she said according to the rules when the ref cannot decide whether it is a foul or not, he/she should take it as not a foul.

[harrry303]

@topgear1550 I agree mate.

[EdGeyy]

Red first

[Swupperdupper]

And furthermore, it's because the pink gets hit so hard in comparison to the red, that the red almost hasn't moved by the time the pink gets hit.

[Swupperdupper]

I believe it hits the red first. If you look closely at the point where they freeze the frame just before and immediately after the cue ball hits, it would seem as if the cue ball changes direction. It's not much, but I think it's there to see.

[tfn105]

I think it's a simultaneous contact, which is why the cueball sort of semi-stuns into the red and that's why the red went left. That's a foul in my book. I think if it's not clear which ball is struck first even slowed down as much as they did, all the ref can do is call it as that, surely?

[Sandheaver]

It is a difficult one to call, so I sympathise with Eirian Williams' dilemma. I personally think it brushed the red before hitting the pink, hence the red's movement to the left.

But I do disagree with Mark Williams effectively blaming his loss on the ref. Williams missed a simple green in frame 18, so he had his chances to win.

[seanofafrica]

The red was definitely skint first

[bogbot11]

I dislike williams and even i can see the pink was hit first and the white stunned the red!

[tsogkhuu]

Red ball definitely changed its movement direction after hit the red ball.

[TheWestSux]

at that pace, the white bounces back off the pink (stun) and hits red sending it that direction. So Williams had a point. But looking in super slow motion, I think the cue ball brushed the red before hitting the pink. The angle suggests red was nrushed first. Tough call

[Tokoloshe79]

I don't see why this is such an issue. If he had hit the pink first then red wouldn't have moved at all. The fact that the red moved is clear evidence that it was hit, so what is the argument?

[tfn105]

@Tokoloshe79 I just saw your comment after I wrote my own point, which is you've assumed that they weren't both struck simultaneously, which would be a foul. Also, the red moving is not evidence that it was hit first, only that it was hit. At that speed, it wouldn't take much stun/screw - which playing off a cushion can do - to make the white hit the red a _fraction_ after the pink,

[QPRLAD86]

Just come on to see what all the fuss was about not a fan of snooker or either player so no bias here but Pink was hit first. This Williams guy has a point.

[Ha6a6]

If you are a fan of Mark Williams you'll see the white hitting the pink.

If you are a fan Mark Selby you'll see the white hitting the red.

If you are objective you'll see the white hitting both balls simultaneously.

[robertofr13]

@Ha6a6 You're absolutely right.

[MrMattyvibes]

I wonder why the crowd in China laugh at these type of situations. These were very tense moments i feel, and we certainly wouldn't have reacted like this in the UK. I do not see the comedy value in this frame at all!

[robertofr13]

This judge should be banned from snooker. What a shame.

Mark williams was out of game after that decision, that why he missed the green.

[TheMytant]

@robertofr13 why banned ? if he would say pink, then Selby would lose. And?? - same story. I think referee was in really hard situation, any his decision is right, because he is referee. And it's not his fault. And btw you are so sure that the pink was first ?

[robertofr13]

@TheMytant I agree that the judge was in difficult situation, but I do not agree that any decision is right. Referees make mistakes too. I did not say that pink was first. For me the cue ball hit simultaneously both balls. And it's fault. I think ref had to keep his word. He said "Mark Williams six." Why he changed his mind?

Only those who plays snooker knows the damage that such a situation does.

[ihsahk]

Shaky final, c'mon MJW get over this and win the UK...

[bennett000000]

well mark william was obviously going to say he hit the pink first :P

[MrMattyvibes]

@bennett000000 No he wouldn't. I don't think Mark Williams is the sort of bloke who'd commit himself so fully unless he was 100% sure, he's just not that sort of person. This is out of his character and unlike him to be so frustrated. He knew the pink was hit first.

[bennett000000]

@MrMattyvibes

but the red was hit first plus i was joking about it

[nimrodmaman]

Look at the cue ball. If it had hit the pink first, it means it came back from the pink to the red. If so, the cue ball after that should have gone DOWNWARD AND NOT IN THE DIRECTION OF THE PINK! For it moved as it moved, it can only be due to the red been hit thinly first, pink after, then the cue ball moving towards the pink due to some upper action left in the cue ball from the initial hit.

Strangely, everyone looked at the impact and not the white.

[duddaG]

it clearly was red first .... williams is a crybaby .... he should not have been trembling on THAT green instead

[DLPBurke]

Simultaneous hit. No way to tell if it was red first. Referee made a big mistake and even changed his mind. Very very poor.

[TheRocketExpress]

@DLPBurke

by the same logic that eirian williams used, there is no way the white could have hit the red first - because then the line that the pink travels will be different.

the logical conclusion from the way the red and pink split after the white contacted is that it was a simultaneous hit.

shame on eirian williams for this disgraceful decision. and more shame on mark selby for not owning up and being a sportsman and gentleman (we know hes not - watch my vids).

[DLPBurke]

@TheRocketExpress He's an arsehole, and so is Eiren.  Williams was sure and ref said yeah it is a foul, when williams wanted balls replacing he changed his mind!!!

[MrMattyvibes]

@DLPBurke yeah and its a shame because they didn't have the technology to replace the balls either or have the ultra slow mo cameras like here in the UK. Very controversial final indeed! i sympathise with Mark Williams a lot here. A very tough call all round though.

[ZsebtelepHUN]

@DLPBurke

even if its simultaneous hit, the rules says its foul and a miss if you hit the colour and the red at the same time

[DLPBurke]

@ZsebtelepHUN yup.