I attended a Blizzard university: Starcraft studies. I learned your theories and participated the SC2 exams. The exams were rough, to pass the exam, you had to win 4 CPU with AI difficulty HARD. Fortunately, I've studied Crota's theories very well. After the graduation and received my official SC2 diploma, I started to sollicate in a Korean SC company. My current job is a professional SC universal engineer. Starcraft is serious education and business. :)
This is al ltrue, but you know in RTS games you odnt only have 1 units, lol its a mix of them so for example you used the Thor, the dmg upgrade it may not change AtK for the thor, but your marines will be able to wipe up the rest of the troops, its not a perfect comparison world with 1v1 units in ideal conditions...
No, a Zealot does kill 33% faster (normally 3 hits now 2, that's a decrease in time of 33% = an increase in speed of 33%) - calculating backwards it used to be 50% slower though (now 3 hits, before it was 2). Depends on what perspective you're starting out from.
Nice analysis, and another reminder to me about how much I wish Blizzard would tweak the current damage and armor system to improve balance, much like they did with Warcraft 3 or the original SC. Maybe adding more damage types like normal, piercing, explosive, burning, etc. and more armor types like light, normal, armored, building, etc. The current system is probably why Zerg is still so underpowered, especially in the Terran vs Zerg matchup.
Very cool Crota! I thought your analysis was excellant and very intelligent. Your conclusion is right: you need to see what your oponent is doing and upgrade accordingly. Generally speaking, while using the Unit Tester, I've done tests with Marines vs zergs first with 0 upgrades, then with +1 attack then with +1 defense etc. In all my tests, it almost always pays to upgrade damage. But YMMV!
Very cool Crota! I thought your analysis was excellant and very intelligent. Your conclusion is right: you need to see what your oponent is doing and upgrade accordingly. Generally speaking, while using the Unit Tester, I've done tests with Marines vs zergs first with 0 upgrades, then with +1 attack then with +1 defense etc. In all my tests, it almost always pays to upgrade damage. But YMMV!
is there any significant upgrades for zerg players? Ex. having armor reducing the amount of hits from say from __ to 1 less, from say, a marine/zealot? Or are we better off mostly upgrading dmg (multiple fast attacking zerglings/splash of muta+ultra/swarm gameplay where +1dmg*40 units being more useful than +1 armor on tissue paper units that die fast anyways.
After seeing this video i think i've decided to be more careful with my upgrades, there are some games where i completely forget about them and get my ass kicked, very informative video, i must admit.Anyway, the bottom line is: "Starcraft is the best game ever made, PERIOD!"
Great info Crota, maybe you can do a series for each race on how upgrades effect each unit. maybe a video on how many of X units you need to kill Y efficiently .
Great info Crota, maybe you can do a series for each race on how upgrades effect each unit. maybe a video on how many of X units you need to kill Y efficiently .
You should also consider your opponent's upgrade level when making a choice like this. ZvP - If my protoss is going gate heavy and I intend to use any number of zerglings, I always want my +armor to be at or equal to his attack.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
Honestly: that was a bit sloppy. If you do a presentation, why not go into that mode in ppt? Or at least screw that orthography stuff. Perhaps putting another 5 minutes into it would have been really ok.
Anyway: the rest of your stuff is fine, one fail can be forgiven
@testthewest123 really? how can you say that this is fail? all he is doing is providing information that he knows for free. i bet if you paid him to teach you he would spend more time and effort to make you happy but until then be less of a cocky ass.
@twster05 Chill out man. Just giving feedback. I can't imagine crota can't do better. Should he have problems with ppt, I would be the first to help out.
@testthewest123 I already have another presentation lined up and I hope to improve on that as well. It took me time to come up with the examples and materials. Hopefully I can remove some of the technical issues next time as well.
Great job Crota! I like u to make video about Protoss Shields and armor. Ive played SCBW a lot, and there was more common to make armor upgr then shields. The question is how it works in SC2 when shields regenerates so fast? 2nd q: Does the shield upgr increasing regeneration speed?
@siden313 i don't think it affects the shield regen. i think shield upgrade is only good for stalkers.... as the can blink away. hence regen while fighting ... i think....
That's a great video. That really helps people get behind the number-crunching of this game and realize it's so much more complex than you think it is.
There are a few errors here, one thing you note is that zerg players don't go for attack for mutas, when in fact they do unless they are running into other muta's
Powerpoint protip: When something is shown visually you don't have to say it verbatim. It's redundant and, for lack of a better word that doesn't sound insulting, boring. Enjoyed the video though!
Isn't it a bit of simplification? Upgraded thors would leave less enemy hp for the rest of your army (like low damage fast hitting marines) to finish off.
@reversedered that's why he said these calculations are only for the early game with smaller fights and less units (e.g. you're pouring all gas into thors and waste the minerals on hellions)
If you want to do a proper percentage difference calculation, use this formula: Weapons upgrade: x = (Dealt damage after upgrade) / (Dealt damage before upgrade) Armor upgrade: y= (Damage taken before upgrade / Damage taken after upgrade) If y is higher than x, you should upgrade armor before weapons given that they cost the same. Example: Armor or weapons for the BC against Hydralisks? x=11/10=1.1 (hydras have 0 armor) y=(12-3)/(12-4)=1.125 (BCs have 3 armor) y>x Upgrade armor
Therefore it is a better choice to upgrade armor before damage in a marine vs zergling fight. Keep in mind that this type of comparison can only be made if the percentage difference is small (because a damage reduction of 50% is equivalent to a damage increase by 100%).
Another thing which is not covered here is the percentage difference in damage versus damage reduction. What I mean by that is probably more easy to explain with an example:
Marine vs Zergling
Marines do 6 damage per hit and gets +1 damage per upgrade, which increases their damage by 1/6=17 % against a zero armor unit such as a zergling which is not upgraded. However, the armor upgrade reduces the damage dealt by zerglings from 5 to 4, which is 20 %.
Hope im not being rude here but you're wrong saying that a zealot kills a zergling 33% faster with 1 attack upgrade. By that logic, it would be 100 % faster (which is twice as fast) if it kills it with 0 strikes, which is obvioulsy not correct.
The correct formula for the INCREASE in kill speed is
(Number of AtK before upgrade / Number of AtK after upgrade) - 1
Yup, exactly, it's silly to go terran mech and get weapon upgrades. It's pointless. Armor upgrades make mech armies so much better. And the pros are finally recognizing this since I see more armor upgrades given priority now.
VS zerg the protos army should get shield ugprades cuz if u micro your units u can get the most of them. but vs terran i would get armor cuz of the emp rounds the ghosts can shoot.
I'm not sure if I understand 10thAngel, but my guess is that he means to say you can't upgrade air units at the same time as morphing a spire into a greater spire. Of course, the simple solution there is to make a second spire, just for upgrades. :)
If the zerg gets carapace upgrades will you need the attack upgrades to maintain your AtK?
As for shields, almost all protoss units have more health than shields. The shield upgrades are more expensive and do less for your army than armor upgrades unless you're massing archons.
you could had made the video shorter, that would be easier for those with slow internet connection, it's not like that can't pause it, you could have made the video less than 1 minute.
@Ebz241 shields work exactly like armor, i.e. X shield upgrades reduce incoming shield damage by X damage.
They are a little worse than armor in one respect: every unit has 0 shield armor by default, but this is greatly balanced out by the fact, that the upgrade applies to every unit/building.
Also, shield armor calculation takes place before hardened shields of immortal, so they have no effect against high damage attacks for that unit.
Finally, sentry shield works every time (last priority).
Good stuff, been thinking about this myself for weeks. Would be nice if someone made a chart for all units showing the amount of shots to kill units with upgrades.
As toss I have been experimenting with fast armor upgrades with guardian shield.
As someone else said, shield armor is worthless for immortals. It's only use is to negate some of the marine damage that it will take.
As soon as the tank nerf is in, archons with shield upgrade will be really efficient at tanking the bio ball.
Crota, actually your thor calculations aren't that good. in the thor versus zerglings example the thor with level 2 weapon upgrade needs 0.5 of a shot to kill a zerglings with 1 armor (just one of the thor's arm fire and the other continues on another target without delay.)
@victorgeniu5 um nope when you loôk at a thor that shoots a zergling you see that he shoots one time and kill the zergling and shoots anothertime in the air where the zergling was but don´t kill another zergling
Keep doing this it's great. You should call it back to school with Crota and have a cool intro. You should also pre record examples of game play to empasize the facts.
Enemy goes tier 1 units => armor upgrade considering tier 1 units always come in big numbers with little dmg
Enemy goes tier 2 units => weapon upgrade considering taking out a tier 2 unit faster is more significant than taking out tier 1 units but research the armor right after the weapon upgrade
Enemy goes tier 3 units => research as many weapon upgrades as possible considering most tier 3 units their dmg isn't lowerd a lot by armor
@ripley999 actually, it's more like this: while shields are up there's no damage mitigation because of armor, just the eventual shield upgrades. once the shields are depleted armor mitigation kicks in.
i've heard Crota talking about the power of shield upgrades in his shoutcasts and i was hoping for some explaining.
Good presentation but for Zerg and Pro units you have to factor in the shield and health regeneration, for example I think PsyStarcraft pointed out that Mutas... (im not sure the exact upgrade numbers that this becomes apparent) will take X+1, X being the theoretical amount of rounds that it should take to kill the given unit. The reason is because on the theoretical last round of attacks the Muta will regenerate 1 HP and survive 1 more round because of that regeneration.
Good presentation but for Zerg and Pro units you have to factor in the shield and health regeneration, for example I think PsyStarcraft pointed out that Mutas... (im not sure the exact upgrade numbers that this becomes apparent) will take X+1, X being the theoretical amount of rounds that it should take to kill the given unit. The reason is because on the theoretical last round of attacks the Muta will regenerate 1 HP and survive 1 more round because of that regeneration.
What a great lesson A suppplement to the Atk-anakysis could be many small units vs few big units and/or melee units vs. ranged unit.. My (non academical) view is that ie. ultra vs marine ball, ultras would benefit more from amorupgrade marine-ball would benefit more from weaponupgrade... My thumb-rule is that for ranged units weaponupgrade is more beneficial, for melee units amor is more important espicially when for bigger units... But it's hard to make a general rule.... cheers...
recently watched TLO play TvZ. He went for the armor upgrade first for his thors vs lings
yellowmustang71 1 month ago
Then how about Protoss? Should I go for shield upgrade or armor upgrade?
LesEnfants1972 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I attended a Blizzard university: Starcraft studies. I learned your theories and participated the SC2 exams. The exams were rough, to pass the exam, you had to win 4 CPU with AI difficulty HARD. Fortunately, I've studied Crota's theories very well. After the graduation and received my official SC2 diploma, I started to sollicate in a Korean SC company. My current job is a professional SC universal engineer. Starcraft is serious education and business. :)
chuk90 3 months ago
So basically...for mech; armor is more important early game?
ThePeter0985 10 months ago
The hellion/thor example wasn't the greatest, as hellions do linear splash...just sayinnn
ThePeter0985 10 months ago
This is the best info about upgrades for sc2 that I've found so far, thx Crota.
helgih580 1 year ago
Actually Vehicle Weapon upgrade Lvl. 3 makes Thors one shots Hydralisk. ^^
raspyish 1 year ago
@raspyish how did you come to that conclusion? Thor upgraded does 39 * 2. Hydras have 80 hps.
BlizShouter 1 year ago 11
@BlizShouter Yea true. I think he came to that conclusion from experience and some marine was randomly shooting too.
Alexon88 1 year ago
This is al ltrue, but you know in RTS games you odnt only have 1 units, lol its a mix of them so for example you used the Thor, the dmg upgrade it may not change AtK for the thor, but your marines will be able to wipe up the rest of the troops, its not a perfect comparison world with 1v1 units in ideal conditions...
Sallar21 1 year ago
very very useful information, thanks Crota!
PushkinMike 1 year ago 2
actually 3/0 upgraded thor kills 2 0/0 zerglings in 1 atk (he got 2*36) and zergling has only 35hp so...
maartinful 1 year ago
Hey Youtubers! Want to see more Starcraft 2 commentary and professional match-ups? Head on over to the CanerasCamera channel and check it out!
CanerasCamera 1 year ago
Comment removed
SpiritPeach 1 year ago
here's a good channel for protoss strategy: youtube.com/user/kunfosc2
TerransToallyImba 1 year ago
No, a Zealot does kill 33% faster (normally 3 hits now 2, that's a decrease in time of 33% = an increase in speed of 33%) - calculating backwards it used to be 50% slower though (now 3 hits, before it was 2). Depends on what perspective you're starting out from.
Whatsifsowhatsit 1 year ago
@Whatsifsowhatsit y the before 3 now 2 is the correct one , so Crota is correct because you can't downgrade...
Alexon88 1 year ago
#1 guide I have found for Starcraft 2 Mastery. Sorry, couldn't include entire site but just delete the (DELETE) and add the HTP and check it out. :)
015287motjcz6w9ktdmpntn3st.hop.clickbank. (DELETE) net/
mBulk11 1 year ago
Like watching Starcraft 2 Matches? Check out Caneras Cam for great matches along with commentary, insight, and analysis!
CanerasCamera 1 year ago
dude, u ARE better shoutcaster than husky or hd,
ure on par with day9
why? because actually u teach us to play
tengikboy 1 year ago 6
Nice analysis, and another reminder to me about how much I wish Blizzard would tweak the current damage and armor system to improve balance, much like they did with Warcraft 3 or the original SC. Maybe adding more damage types like normal, piercing, explosive, burning, etc. and more armor types like light, normal, armored, building, etc. The current system is probably why Zerg is still so underpowered, especially in the Terran vs Zerg matchup.
4 rax runs over Zerg so hard now...
gar2chan 1 year ago
Keep up the good work, crota. Your high-entertaining shoutcasts really make my day...
tomambank 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Very cool Crota! I thought your analysis was excellant and very intelligent. Your conclusion is right: you need to see what your oponent is doing and upgrade accordingly. Generally speaking, while using the Unit Tester, I've done tests with Marines vs zergs first with 0 upgrades, then with +1 attack then with +1 defense etc. In all my tests, it almost always pays to upgrade damage. But YMMV!
Nashadelicable 1 year ago
Very cool Crota! I thought your analysis was excellant and very intelligent. Your conclusion is right: you need to see what your oponent is doing and upgrade accordingly. Generally speaking, while using the Unit Tester, I've done tests with Marines vs zergs first with 0 upgrades, then with +1 attack then with +1 defense etc. In all my tests, it almost always pays to upgrade damage. But YMMV!
Nashadelicable 1 year ago
Wow, you really crunched the numbers.
Illumirage 1 year ago
5 people don't understand the difference between AtK and DPS
dragonruler978 1 year ago
great video,
is there any significant upgrades for zerg players? Ex. having armor reducing the amount of hits from say from __ to 1 less, from say, a marine/zealot? Or are we better off mostly upgrading dmg (multiple fast attacking zerglings/splash of muta+ultra/swarm gameplay where +1dmg*40 units being more useful than +1 armor on tissue paper units that die fast anyways.
Jordo54321 1 year ago
More lessons like this!
norsende 1 year ago
one of your most instructive vids yet. My one an only problem is that it reminds me of school :(
Great job!
radagastthe3rd 1 year ago
After seeing this video i think i've decided to be more careful with my upgrades, there are some games where i completely forget about them and get my ass kicked, very informative video, i must admit.Anyway, the bottom line is: "Starcraft is the best game ever made, PERIOD!"
buggingyou 1 year ago
Thanks BlizShouter, I like the idea of theory class.
A playlist with all the QAXXX articles will probably be handy if you continue that pass.
Thanks again.
CKHer0 1 year ago
Great info Crota, maybe you can do a series for each race on how upgrades effect each unit. maybe a video on how many of X units you need to kill Y efficiently .
sokingssddk 1 year ago
@sokingssddk but when the new patches come out, all the math would be wrong!
SpiritPeach 1 year ago
@SpiritPeach , maybe delay till patch comes out then. when does this patch come out anyway?
sokingssddk 1 year ago
Great info Crota, maybe you can do a series for each race on how upgrades effect each unit. maybe a video on how many of X units you need to kill Y efficiently .
sokingssddk 1 year ago
i think crota can start a detailed school ppt on various scenarios.
eg zerg fighting against terran should get what kind of upgrade 1st.
or protoss against terran should get what upgrade 1st....
nova1491 1 year ago
yeah it's 50% more
SpicyHam 1 year ago
Lol cool dude! I just instinctivly got mech armor and infantry wepons vs zerg. Now i feel justified :)
thewrathofshane 1 year ago
hey buddy just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to make this video for us all
AshleyDavies87 1 year ago
You should also consider your opponent's upgrade level when making a choice like this. ZvP - If my protoss is going gate heavy and I intend to use any number of zerglings, I always want my +armor to be at or equal to his attack.
Halibut86 1 year ago
"Crota: Spreadsheetcraft 2"
ToxinMortalis 1 year ago
Hey! Thx a lot for taking the time to make this vid.
HanXin2555 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Honestly: that was a bit sloppy. If you do a presentation, why not go into that mode in ppt? Or at least screw that orthography stuff. Perhaps putting another 5 minutes into it would have been really ok.
Anyway: the rest of your stuff is fine, one fail can be forgiven
testthewest123 1 year ago
@testthewest123 a bit harsh isn't it?
nova1491 1 year ago
@testthewest123 really? how can you say that this is fail? all he is doing is providing information that he knows for free. i bet if you paid him to teach you he would spend more time and effort to make you happy but until then be less of a cocky ass.
twster05 1 year ago
@twster05 Chill out man. Just giving feedback. I can't imagine crota can't do better. Should he have problems with ppt, I would be the first to help out.
testthewest123 1 year ago
@testthewest123 I already have another presentation lined up and I hope to improve on that as well. It took me time to come up with the examples and materials. Hopefully I can remove some of the technical issues next time as well.
BlizShouter 1 year ago 15
@BlizShouter
I'm sure you can. Didn't want to offend you, just trying to give honest feedback.
testthewest123 1 year ago
Comment removed
radagastthe3rd 1 year ago
this guy sounds retarted
HATEMORETHANuLOVE 1 year ago
Good job. Just don't tell terran how to own zerg even harder :(
dtmtcm 1 year ago
Good info. Thanks.
haukurso 1 year ago
very well thought out.
Promote this to all newbs!
mooogles 1 year ago
not sure if i agree. you need a whole list of every unit to make this of any use since sc2 is very situational
dragganforce 1 year ago
Best Q&A so far. Very useful information. Keep it up.
saugider 1 year ago 27
Thank you for this video, i've never realized this lol, shield plox :)
RunescapeUtber 1 year ago
Great job Crota! I like u to make video about Protoss Shields and armor. Ive played SCBW a lot, and there was more common to make armor upgr then shields. The question is how it works in SC2 when shields regenerates so fast? 2nd q: Does the shield upgr increasing regeneration speed?
siden313 1 year ago
@siden313 i don't think it affects the shield regen. i think shield upgrade is only good for stalkers.... as the can blink away. hence regen while fighting ... i think....
nova1491 1 year ago
Great job Crota!
siden313 1 year ago
excellent info
Thesilverrat 1 year ago
take my kiss.
admiralnun 1 year ago
i love you, man.
admiralnun 1 year ago
Nice presentation! More examples would be nice, like in which cases the upgrade counts and which not. thx
hunharang 1 year ago
if your playing as zerg/prottos and thay got a havy marine army u whana go shields over attack
makeone1234 1 year ago
well done
supernova6788 1 year ago
well done :)
supernova6788 1 year ago
Thanks a lot man!
samson915067 1 year ago
cool,more plz :]
orm11 1 year ago
Damn Crota your as smart as i am well done man haha this is good shit
turktech1 1 year ago
Very nice presentation.
magnus962 1 year ago
3 people are gay.
AzNDraGoN4594 1 year ago
@AzNDraGoN4594 you just wanna be in the THUMBS UP AREA...
fapgtrplyr 1 year ago
great! I like this one
caviliere 1 year ago
This was very good. the mech example was great. Do protoss next please :)
dontdispie 1 year ago
Red squiggly line :-\
CorrectJeans 1 year ago
this was very useful, thank you
goopro45 1 year ago
Well done!
googlethatshiz 1 year ago
That's a great video. That really helps people get behind the number-crunching of this game and realize it's so much more complex than you think it is.
Susanmugen 1 year ago
thank you for this man it really helped me :D
Cell2677 1 year ago
Prefer the ones where we can see you bro
Zeffrin101 1 year ago
There are a few errors here, one thing you note is that zerg players don't go for attack for mutas, when in fact they do unless they are running into other muta's
beatrix202 1 year ago
Powerpoint protip: When something is shown visually you don't have to say it verbatim. It's redundant and, for lack of a better word that doesn't sound insulting, boring. Enjoyed the video though!
remember132 1 year ago
Do u think that turrets( missile turrets, photon cannons, spine crawlers) should hav weapon upgrades like units do?
kroncw 1 year ago
hehe I usually get dual armory and upgrade both :O
xxqbHizO 1 year ago
great video I loved this style of q&a... I want to ask two things of you please
1. could you show how to figure out these numbers and impliment them in gameplay?
2. Could you explain the protoss shield upgrades and the pros and cons of those over armor?
thanks
ddude987 1 year ago
I Like I Like!!!
ToyoKid1200 1 year ago
great. moar.
doe791 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
shields upgrade mekes the shilde regen faster when not in battle
jakeheili 1 year ago
shilds upgrade mekes the shilde regen faster when not in battle
jakeheili 1 year ago
This is what we need, more advanced stff crota !
Namek182 1 year ago
lol im only going to grade 9 but its still awsome!
BabyKiller9991 1 year ago
LOL THIS IS IN 720P?
Wonyoung417 1 year ago
great breakdown, nice way to emphasize the contextual factor.
jeremyras 1 year ago
Isn't it a bit of simplification? Upgraded thors would leave less enemy hp for the rest of your army (like low damage fast hitting marines) to finish off.
reversedered 1 year ago
@reversedered that's why he said these calculations are only for the early game with smaller fights and less units (e.g. you're pouring all gas into thors and waste the minerals on hellions)
Mr42 1 year ago
henricryden 1 year ago
Part 2:
Therefore it is a better choice to upgrade armor before damage in a marine vs zergling fight. Keep in mind that this type of comparison can only be made if the percentage difference is small (because a damage reduction of 50% is equivalent to a damage increase by 100%).
henricryden 1 year ago
Another thing which is not covered here is the percentage difference in damage versus damage reduction. What I mean by that is probably more easy to explain with an example:
Marine vs Zergling
Marines do 6 damage per hit and gets +1 damage per upgrade, which increases their damage by 1/6=17 % against a zero armor unit such as a zergling which is not upgraded. However, the armor upgrade reduces the damage dealt by zerglings from 5 to 4, which is 20 %.
See part 2
henricryden 1 year ago
Hope im not being rude here but you're wrong saying that a zealot kills a zergling 33% faster with 1 attack upgrade. By that logic, it would be 100 % faster (which is twice as fast) if it kills it with 0 strikes, which is obvioulsy not correct.
The correct formula for the INCREASE in kill speed is
(Number of AtK before upgrade / Number of AtK after upgrade) - 1
Example:
Zealot vs Zergling
(3/2) -1= 50 % faster kill speed.
If it went from 3 AtK to 1 AtK it's
(3/1) - 1 = 200% faster.
henricryden 1 year ago
I don't enjoy going back to school :(
Zetaman6666 1 year ago
Definitely more of this stuff please. This is much more educational than a replay, and will help people get better knowing stuff like this.
Lange248 1 year ago
That was awesome! I'm with Evz241, I don't understand Sheilds, could you go over them please?
Jsm000007 1 year ago
pro video man
JohnnyDarko01 1 year ago
crap man! this is amazing stuffff!!!
do more tutorial vids, ie: specifically what Z should do to counter P and T builds. or vice versa! that would be amazing if you made those 3 vids!!!
josephtenthousand 1 year ago
okay I re-calculated, i got the result of 50% increase in Attacks-toKill speed
i wrote 66% first 'cause i saw 33# and thought it was too little
SpicyHam 1 year ago
Infinitely more interesting than the traditional build order demonstration videos.
Loje10 1 year ago
Very nice Corta, give us more! PvZ, TvZ, TvT, do'em all! :D
Bachpat 1 year ago
Moar.
phys1c 1 year ago
What about TvP?
RenegadeExpressVideo 1 year ago
1 dumbcunt voted thumbs down.... great responsde crota
iljia1 1 year ago
Yup, exactly, it's silly to go terran mech and get weapon upgrades. It's pointless. Armor upgrades make mech armies so much better. And the pros are finally recognizing this since I see more armor upgrades given priority now.
sor3999 1 year ago
@sor3999 well, if you have siege tanks in your mech...
Mr42 1 year ago
*Thor takes 2 shots for hydra not 1, you should slow down
captainzobi 1 year ago
VS zerg the protos army should get shield ugprades cuz if u micro your units u can get the most of them. but vs terran i would get armor cuz of the emp rounds the ghosts can shoot.
TeZaek 1 year ago
I would like that blizz put the airupgrades in the evolution chamber... would that be bad or good?
10thAngel 1 year ago
@10thAngel Dunno, however its always been in the Spire since SC1. Plus you only get air units once you get the Spire anyway.
Azylath 1 year ago
@Azylath though one thing that is annoyign is that when you pop the greater spire, you loose the ability to upgrade on it >_>
10thAngel 1 year ago
@10thAngel Wah? Really? I don't ever recall that happening to me. I know you can still upgrade air units with the greater spire.
Azylath 1 year ago
@Azylath
I'm not sure if I understand 10thAngel, but my guess is that he means to say you can't upgrade air units at the same time as morphing a spire into a greater spire. Of course, the simple solution there is to make a second spire, just for upgrades. :)
Susanmugen 1 year ago
@Susanmugen Yes that's true. However, its always been like that since SC1 so I don't see it as a problem.
Azylath 1 year ago
If the zerg gets carapace upgrades will you need the attack upgrades to maintain your AtK?
As for shields, almost all protoss units have more health than shields. The shield upgrades are more expensive and do less for your army than armor upgrades unless you're massing archons.
USMCDiablo 1 year ago
you could had made the video shorter, that would be easier for those with slow internet connection, it's not like that can't pause it, you could have made the video less than 1 minute.
ExPyro85 1 year ago
It's not like you* can't pause it
ExPyro85 1 year ago
Tell me about Shields!¬!!!!!
Ebz241 1 year ago 60
@Ebz241 It's the exact same logic as with hit points
henricryden 1 year ago
@Ebz241 shields is like armor for shilds
makeone1234 1 year ago
@Ebz241 shields work exactly like armor, i.e. X shield upgrades reduce incoming shield damage by X damage.
They are a little worse than armor in one respect: every unit has 0 shield armor by default, but this is greatly balanced out by the fact, that the upgrade applies to every unit/building.
Also, shield armor calculation takes place before hardened shields of immortal, so they have no effect against high damage attacks for that unit.
Finally, sentry shield works every time (last priority).
Mr42 1 year ago
thanks for this video !
damudar 1 year ago
armor for protoss only comes into effect once shields are down though right?
dbddbddbz 1 year ago
@dbddbddbz ye shields is shield upgrade :p
maartendesmet 1 year ago 2
Good stuff, been thinking about this myself for weeks. Would be nice if someone made a chart for all units showing the amount of shots to kill units with upgrades.
As toss I have been experimenting with fast armor upgrades with guardian shield.
As someone else said, shield armor is worthless for immortals. It's only use is to negate some of the marine damage that it will take.
As soon as the tank nerf is in, archons with shield upgrade will be really efficient at tanking the bio ball.
Wrestlerstcc 1 year ago
i enjayd!
schnellnful 1 year ago
Crota, can you comment on the relative importance of shield and armor upgrades in the gate-army portion of the game for a protoss player?
rossn2282 1 year ago
310 likes, no dislikes, nuff said
Rexius95 1 year ago
Crota, actually your thor calculations aren't that good. in the thor versus zerglings example the thor with level 2 weapon upgrade needs 0.5 of a shot to kill a zerglings with 1 armor (just one of the thor's arm fire and the other continues on another target without delay.)
victorgeniu5 1 year ago
@victorgeniu5 false one round of attack means that he fires with both arms.
so your dream will be a dream :P
Reifli 1 year ago
@Reifli exactly, that is why I said 0.5 shots to kill a zergling, because the thor shoots with just one arm to kill a zergling.
Damage: 36
Attack: 2
So 2 attacks mean 1 shot, from there it is basic math...
victorgeniu5 1 year ago
@victorgeniu5 um nope when you loôk at a thor that shoots a zergling you see that he shoots one time and kill the zergling and shoots anothertime in the air where the zergling was but don´t kill another zergling
and yes i only played a game to answere this^^
Reifli 1 year ago
This is an excellant video, cant thank you enough for the time and effort you put into this youtube channel.
ImaScotsman 1 year ago
This is amazing, thumbs up for taking the time to create this! :D
Zortje9 1 year ago
Hey Crota,
could you tell me where you got this information from? I mean the DPS etc. Is there a website? I don't think you can check this ingame?!?
Thanks in advance,
f.
fanathym 1 year ago
@fanathym those are just simple calculations. Damage divided by attack speed.
brushrop03 1 year ago
Keep doing this it's great. You should call it back to school with Crota and have a cool intro. You should also pre record examples of game play to empasize the facts.
NorthsouthWestly 1 year ago 9
@NorthsouthWestly that would be so lol haha, crota should do some funny lyrics in his talking voice
chillindog2 1 year ago
@NorthsouthWestly exactly what I thought. A weekly or bi-weekly theorycrafting show would be awesome.
Mr42 1 year ago
beautifully done. really want more of this stuff :)
jatvarthur 1 year ago 68
A Zealot kills a Zergling 50% faster with +1 weapon upgrades.
with 6 attacks it can now kill 3 zerglings instead of 2.
Otherwise very informative 'lesson' Crota!
Robannnnn 1 year ago
Comment removed
WallieTF 1 year ago
@Robannnnn its still 33% with 6 attacks 3 / 2 = 33%
Avaryes 1 year ago
@Avaryes
my calculator says 3/2 = 1.5 = 50% more
I'm sure yours does as well.
You are confusing the fact that you need 33% LESS attacks.
With 33% LESS attacks per zergling, the zealot is able to kill 50% MORE zerglings
Robannnnn 1 year ago 4
Great thanks Crota.. it would've helped to show a large table with the critical differences - guess that's homework for us then..
8DX 1 year ago
or just make 2 forge and upgrade them both. gotta kill em all starcraftmon
flyaxe 1 year ago
and something i wanted to ,ask Crota, how does the hardend shield of the immortal actually work?
I mean in addition with shield armor, if you get 1 shield for the immortal, is the max dmg that the shields can take 9 or still 10?
FluffyPinkPony 1 year ago
@FluffyPinkPony
You have to apply the shield armor BEFORE hardened shields kicks in.
So if you take 12 damage with 2 shield armor then you get 10 damage. if you get 11 damage with 2 shield upgrades yu get 9 damage
Robannnnn 1 year ago
@Robannnnn
K tnx
FluffyPinkPony 1 year ago
@FluffyPinkPony also, guardian shield applies AFTER hardened shield if you are being hit from range. Neat stuff.
Mr42 1 year ago
@Mr42
Hm nice to know, ty
FluffyPinkPony 1 year ago
Intresting, my tactics were always
Enemy goes tier 1 units => armor upgrade considering tier 1 units always come in big numbers with little dmg
Enemy goes tier 2 units => weapon upgrade considering taking out a tier 2 unit faster is more significant than taking out tier 1 units but research the armor right after the weapon upgrade
Enemy goes tier 3 units => research as many weapon upgrades as possible considering most tier 3 units their dmg isn't lowerd a lot by armor
FluffyPinkPony 1 year ago
something that your little lesson missed: how do protoss shield upgrades influence incoming damage?
ainscu 1 year ago
@ainscu they dont. just more shields
ripley999 1 year ago
@ripley999 actually, it's more like this: while shields are up there's no damage mitigation because of armor, just the eventual shield upgrades. once the shields are depleted armor mitigation kicks in.
i've heard Crota talking about the power of shield upgrades in his shoutcasts and i was hoping for some explaining.
ainscu 1 year ago
Powerpoint, doesn't know the word "Hydralisk"... MS: I am dissappoint ._.
ric0h 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
very interesting video crota, i had known for the zealot +1 but did not know the hellion and thor facts! keep it up!
ea10bgz 1 year ago
very interesting video crota, i had know for the zealot +1 but did not know the hellion and thor facts! keep it up!
ea10bgz 1 year ago
I wish my math teacher played sc2
Keukeu45 1 year ago
now this is MY kind of school. Crota FTW
Rostan1993 1 year ago 3
Holly cow so sorry for re-post i'm fairly new to commenting again so sorry!
Crad746 1 year ago
Good presentation but for Zerg and Pro units you have to factor in the shield and health regeneration, for example I think PsyStarcraft pointed out that Mutas... (im not sure the exact upgrade numbers that this becomes apparent) will take X+1, X being the theoretical amount of rounds that it should take to kill the given unit. The reason is because on the theoretical last round of attacks the Muta will regenerate 1 HP and survive 1 more round because of that regeneration.
Crad746 1 year ago
Good presentation but for Zerg and Pro units you have to factor in the shield and health regeneration, for example I think PsyStarcraft pointed out that Mutas... (im not sure the exact upgrade numbers that this becomes apparent) will take X+1, X being the theoretical amount of rounds that it should take to kill the given unit. The reason is because on the theoretical last round of attacks the Muta will regenerate 1 HP and survive 1 more round because of that regeneration.
Crad746 1 year ago
What a great lesson A suppplement to the Atk-anakysis could be many small units vs few big units and/or melee units vs. ranged unit.. My (non academical) view is that ie. ultra vs marine ball, ultras would benefit more from amorupgrade marine-ball would benefit more from weaponupgrade... My thumb-rule is that for ranged units weaponupgrade is more beneficial, for melee units amor is more important espicially when for bigger units... But it's hard to make a general rule.... cheers...
Pepe00ad 1 year ago
"The Zealot is 66% faster at killing Zerglings after the upgrade assuming no armor on the ling"
I think it should be 50%.
for example in 60 attack zealot can kill 20 zerglings
upgraded can do it in 40 attacks. So the speed(that is proportional to 1/time to kill) of killing for 10 is 1.5x 00.
Voy2378 1 year ago
@Voy2378 It is neither. If you need 60 attacks and then you need 40 attacks - you are around 33% faster. (50% - 30 attacks, 66% - 20)
Yavor1989 1 year ago
@Yavor1989
like I said:
So the speed(that is proportional to 1/time to kill)