The Trouble With Democracy: Maslow Meets Hoppe | Douglas E. French

[babubabu11]

The substantial stuff starts at 8:09.

[cannotbebothered100]

When I was about 15 I recognised what Hoppe once claimed is not often recognised (and I was then totally uneducated in any economics but superficial understanding of it), that with monarchy the State will have some incentive to impose less Statism if it recognises that its intervention ultimately makes the society from which it leeches poorer, whereas democracy doesn't have that monarch worrying about the value he'll be able to leech later in life or give to his heirs due to having limited terms

[KommanderWill]

Easily Doug French's best speech on here.

[dynomyght]

Stupidbuild is a self righteous moron, who lives in a dream world instead of the real world of humans who are capable of good and evil. His self righteousness is basically immoral. Because you think Kildall is better then Gates, well the world certainly patronized Gates more then Kildall. And they are free to do it. And thats democracy my friend in action. missingperson I think you are missing the life, liberty and property protection thing completely.

[99missingperson99]

@dynomyght No i'm not and I agree in a monetary economics paradigm these are needed protections.Lets say like the "person" was a created legal fiction for contractual purposes with other corporate fictions or entities(originally as a protection from what they are doing now as the story goes)was abused and taken over.We gave,through the registering of the birth certificate,our equal share in the GDP or resources of our land.Which in case you dont know the USA is a corporation(article of inc.1868)

[99missingperson99]

@99missingperson99 All the wasted $ that goes to Corruption , the FED, Wars, Campaigns..ect. Is our $.We need to reclaim it and dole out to the state or federal governments like the subcontractors they are.We want this,show us the bid financials and all.If we think its fair we pay to have this item done.We could build massive beneficial automated infrastructure for what they waste.In our hands this $ could be use to create common projects instead of industrial parks for 1 company.

[99missingperson99]

@99missingperson99 Our wealth would be unimaginable and to protect it and prevent past problems from occurring for the umpteenth time.Lets try to find a way to prevent it from happening again.Words and $ are the tools of manipulation cause naked violence doesnt work on this large of a scale.Your troops wont fight for you if not conditioned first.Remove their tools of negative conditioning and manipulation and the traditional fears that are real now will be false then.Understand?

[WelfareRobot]

Mises also said "don't feed the troll". Not really, but at least don't let him hijack the comments.

[successfulbuild]

I think they should do a video on MIses/Rothbard's racial theories. Then they'd love him even more over at Stormfront (several of whose members are also community forum members over at Mises.org).

[kev3d]

@successfulbuild If you actually understood anything about Libertarianism, Austrian economics (Or even Chicago economics)Free Markets and Anarchism, you'd know that racism is unprofitable and that rights and private property rights are respected regardless of race. Also, Mises and Rothbard were Jews and were completely against national socialism , so I doubt the Stormfront folks would have much interest.

[successfulbuild]

"Even men who are fair in their appraisal of the qualities and cultural achievements of the colored races and severely object to any discrimination against those members of these races who are already living in the midst of the white populations, are opposed to the mass immigration of colored people. There are few white men who would not shudder at the picture of many millions of black or yellow people living in their own countries." --Ludwig MIses

[successfulbuild]

@successfulbuild Mises apparently wouldn't have liked any modern Universities' engineering department.

[SamuelMoralesJr]

@successfulbuild is that quote suppose to be the smoking gun that Mises was racist? I see nothing in that quote that indicts Mises as a racist. He said that even those who claim to be no racist, are racist are certain point. A mild racist wouldn't mind small amount of immigration, but would object to mass immigration. Case in point like a country like Sweden, where there is political friction over immigration now when the country was all but pro-immigration. UK the same thing. Major FAILEDBUILD.

[KagarBeardtooth]

@successfulbuild

It's an accurate statement.

Does the fact that he points this out necessarily mean that he himself feels this way or advocates the restriction of immigration of colored people/segregation? Absolutely not. A belief like that would go against everything that he teaches.

[successfulbuild]

So basically, the capitalists should rule over the plebeians like emperors and we should submit to their rule. So for example Bill Gates got lucky and was in the right place at the right time to start a business, rather than someone perhaps more deserving, such as Gary Kildall. So that means he gets to rule over the computer market, even though he hasn't written code for windows since 3.1 and all of all Windows good ideas came from other people - yet he makes the profit. I refuse to submit.

[kev3d]

@successfulbuild Then don't submit. There is no "submission" under Anarcho Capitalism. And if you don't like Windows, there's OSX, Unix, Red Hat, Ubuntu, Chrome to name a few...and if you don't like those, you can either write your own or pay someone to write it for you. You can even sell your product if you like, or give it away. As for the "more deserving" Gary Kildall....who decides who is more deserving? How about let people decide what they like best.

[SamuelMoralesJr]

@successfulbuild I think you don't even understand the video. Natural elite composes of people who are experienced in their respective profession. A teacher is an elite in education, because the teacher is credited with knowing math, science, writing, language, etc. A carpenter is a natural elite in his field. A baker wouldn't have the expertise of a carpenter, or vice-versa unless he is proven to be. Windows is popular because of consumer preferences, even then, i's based on IP laws.

[successfulbuild]

"You have the courage to tell the masses what no politician told them: you are inferior and all the improvements in your conditions which you simply take for granted you owe to the efforts of men who are better than you."

[successfulbuild]

And Mises adored Ayn Rand: ""But Atlas Shrugged is not merely a novel. It is also (or may I say: first of all) a cogent analysis of the evils that plague our society, a substantiated rejection of the ideology of our self-styled "intellectuals" and a pitiless unmasking of the insincerity of the policies adopted by governments and political parties...."

[successfulbuild]

Actually, this is standard Libertarian rhetoric that could have come straight from Mises himself: ""The masses do not think. This is precisely the reason why they follow those who do think. The intellectual leadership of mankind is a position held by the very few who are able to think."

[bandpractice]

What is this nonsense about the "natural elite"? Sounds like some Ayn Rand bullshit or social darwinism. That's the kind of shit non-libertarians see and say, "look, they just want wealthy businessmen to be in control and expect them to be good." I like the rest of the video, democracy is definitely horrible, but talk of a "natural elite" is annoying.

[failedassassin]

I don't want to hurt the institute's ability to advertise, but I don't think his first 8 minutes of advertisement applies to anyone but the people who were at the conference itself. So the actual content begins at 8:30.

[TheBrotherMouzone]

This is wonderful. However, I must say: This is 2010 already. Record in HD please. HD cameras are not that expensive these days.

[Povidius]

@TheBrotherMouzone Then buy them some. You can afford it... They aren't expensive, right?

[borisbmx]

america flooded with asiatic jews from russia in 1880s, floridated the water in late 1940s to third eye blind the whole nation as it established the jewish colony in the middle east. THis is democracy. THis nation has totally transformed in the past 100 years and is no long what it was in 1776.

[successfulbuild]

The areas of the brain that cause men to act work for different reasons - not all of them are deliberately "purposeful." This has been explained. Austrians are essentially fine with the government protecting large corporations even it results in a Gilded Age type of society - what Austrians claim is the golden age of America.

[KSTCBH23]

@successfulbuild Austrians are against the State use of coercion or compulsion in support of any private entity, including corporations. Also, Austrians will never refer to anything as a "golden age", because that term is a mythological design. Also, it is true that humans have actions that are not purposeful, such as reflexes and the like. That is why Austrians focus only on purposeful action, whereby actors act in order to achieve a definite end.

[successfulbuild]

"Mises objected to the way that

Walrasians apply equilibrium concepts, but he did not reject equilibrium analysis itself. Mises

took equilibrium further than Walrasians by making fuller and more appropriate use of

equilibrium concepts."

[successfulbuild]

"markets. Mises, Hayek, and Lachmann used various types of

equilibrium concepts to explain the market process. Mises, Hayek, and Lachmann made

more extensive and better use of equilibrium concepts in economic theory than have

Walrasian economists. Equilibrium is central to the Mises-Hayek paradigm."

[KSTCBH23]

@successfulbuild Equilibrium is only used as an imaginary construct in order to more fully understand the pricing system. It simply states that as buyers and sellers engage in a market, that the price of a particular good will trend towards an equilibrium state as individual valuations are made. However, since one market is usually followed by yet another, that this equilibrium state is never reached. Austrians do not, and never have, believed that equilibrium exists in a market economy.

[CurtHowland]

I am so very glad these presentations are made available online.

Makes me very sad I couldn't attend the one in Greenville, NC, last year.

[MirageScience]

ANARCHY

Remember we are winning.

[qtronRobespierre]

Where would someone like Newton, who hated socializing and had no companions, but who actualized himself intellectually, fit into this hierarchy?

[successfulbuild]

@qtronRobespierre Newton openly admitted that science was a cooperative effort and that he wouldn't have been able to make the contributions he had made had it not been for the "giants before him." Furthermore, he wasn't completely antisocial, went to college (something Mises students should look into, perhaps a community college if need be) at Trinity and Cambridge, and was actually encouraged to read science by an uncle, whom he got his books from, who motivated him to go to school.

[qtronRobespierre]

@successfulbuild

Yah, Newton read classical thinkers, I know his biography well. But he was very cantankerous as a personality from my readings. I went to college as well; I graduated from the University of Toronto and York University; my degree was in Applied Mathematics. (I am not a "Mises student" per se; I'm interested in von Mises ideas.) You, on the other hand, seem to be pushing some sort of agenda here, no?

[93msinclair]

Democracy is inherently immoral. It assumes that we have no rights as humans and we should simply be granted our rights by the majority. But of course it's even worse than that because the majority inevitably overlooks the special interests and grants them special privelages.

[ostralopithicus]

Seems to me that most of the wealthy seek office or support politicians so that they can limit the competition "competition is sin" - John D. Rockefeller ; government shall always be a target for the wealthy. Anarchism/Autarchism is the only realistic way to maintain free markets.

[MrManuelNoriega]

Excellent speech. It pretty much sums up what everybody already knows but doesn't dare to state. Democracy doesn't work. I don't agree with the conclusion though. A collaps won't change anything. Even if people are starving and we're on the verge of a civil war, those who are in power will benefit from it. The natural elites won't have a chance of getting their voices heard. By definition, the natural elites don't have enough money. Fundamental change only can be achieved by a violent revolution

[zbigniewzapora]

@MrManuelNoriega

And leaders of this bloody revolution will be the new government. Monarchy or despotism don't work either. So if no known form of governments work then we should at last try to understand what government is and why it fails so hard every time. And then we will all become ancaps :D

[99missingperson99]

@zbigniewzapora Or join The Zeitgeist Movement for real solutions.

[zbigniewzapora]

@99missingperson99

No thanks. To me there is nothing real about zeitgeist movement solutions.

[99missingperson99]

@zbigniewzapora

Right because you are an ANCAP, Who thinks that complete private ownership is the answer.Please explain how thats not the same or won't inevitably end the same as fuedal fiefdoms were he who grabs the most forces all around him to submit?Your concept of property as freedom is tainted by thinking that you won't have access to something or that once you do you must protect it or it will be unavailable later.These are monetary distortions derived from scarcity.Remove the scarcity.

[hcarter75]

@99missingperson99 A society BASED on the consumption of fixed resources will eventually consume itself. Hence, the problem with Democracy.

[truevoice08]

@99missingperson99 I am amazed at the number of people who criticize anarchocapitalists w/o even having read a wikipedia article about it. The idea that anarchocapitalism will result in feudalism is absurd. Pls read "The Market for Liberty" by Linda and Morris Tannehill or "Practical Anarchy" by Stefan Molyneux before commenting further.

[99missingperson99]

@truevoice08

Well versed, Freedomain radio is in my subscriptions right along with mises institute and many more. Have been for awhile. Look, I agree with the freeman position and a lot of what we need to do to get back to a position of authority over ourselves. My real question is what then? What measures will prevent the manipulation all over again? Maybe we need to get to that point first, but then we need to ask ourselves what kind of a society do we want to create that will stop this?

[BobbyW3363]

Excellent speech, btw.

[BobbyW3363]

Jeez, real harsh comments. I have always enjoyed Doug's speeches and have never noticed any of what has been mentioned. Most of you who enjoy this type of content should remember that these guys do work full-time mainly for donations, and we get to benefit from their intellectual contributions for free. So unless you're paying Doug's salary, maybe quit whining about the promotional comments at the beginning, or Doug's speaking skills? Just a thought.

[markleerose]

I, for one, enjoy Doug's speeches.

[ORVX]

Doug is not a good speaker, he should stick to wrighting.

[eagleeye1975]

Ugh, had to stop listening after 16 minutes... dude needs to stop breathing so hard and smacking his mouth.

[LibertySole]

@eagleeye1975 Lol I can rarely watch his speeches all the way through, like you said smacking of lips and heavy breathing just gets to me. I much prefer his written pieces.

[condobeacon]

@eagleeye1975 poor Doug French, he is a heavy breather. Every video with him features him smothering the microphone.

[eagleeye1975]

The actual talk starts at 8:20.

Fricking waste of 8 minutes of begging, introductions, applause, etc...

[spikesmth]

"The natural elites have a duty to spread what is true"

Who enforces this? It seems that in reality, the elites are only gaining by spreading non-truths.

I feel like Austrian Econ is like Communism, it only works if everyone is thinking the same way and after the (relative) same goals.

[hellsunicorn]

@spikesmth "I FEEL like Austrian Econ is like Communism" You need to think about things rather than feeling about them, then you'll get the right answer. Furthermore, who enforces the democracy? You are going to have elites in any system of governance, it is the natural consequence of human existence, so you will be better off living under a system that doesn't live in denial of reality the way Keynesians and Egalitarians do.

[spikesmth]

@hellsunicorn I have a degree in Econ, so my feelings are based on thoughtful study thank you. Feelings are nothing more than thoughts when you get down to it anyway.

I asked who enforces the "duty of the elite" to be honest and promote truth because I see the exact opposite happening despite what the speaker claims.

Denial of reality? How is Keynes recognition of the Government's role in affecting macroeconomics a denial of reality? & the pipe dream of 0 unemployment espoused by the Classicals?

[maskedphrogg]

@spikesmth

A degree in Economics eh. Perhaps from a University in Chicago?

You speak Keynesian Gibberish quite fluently.

Whoopee do, Keynes saw that Gov could affect MacroEconomic environment. That Gov *should* affect macroeconomics is the fatal mistake so many of his followers make. That such a stance leads directly to classical communism is the inevitable result.

[spikesmth]

@maskedphrogg I think government should intervene in some cases because I don't believe the hype, that free market forces will always generate the optimal net social welfare. LOL, and how do you get from 'some' regulations to communism?! That is a slippery slope fallacy if I've ever heard one.

[maskedphrogg]

@spikesmth

Free markets are not intended to provide "social welfare" , whatever that term is supposed to mean. Free markets reward efforts to provide goods and services.

[spikesmth]

@maskedphrogg The social welfare curve is an economic concept which a perfect market is intended to maximize. All actors in the free market will make transactions that mutually benefit each other and maximum welfare is 'supposed' to be achieved given the finite inputs. The fact is, if people can get away with it, they will cheat sometimes which reduces the max utility possible.

[maskedphrogg]

@spikesmth

Those who cheat others in the market will have that reputation associated to them and will subsequently find fewer willing to do -voluntary- trade with them. Inevitably aggregate social welfare will then continue to maintain or increase.

Tnx for the definition. Your explanation debunks your earlier claim.

[Nintendomanwill]

@spikesmth

Why would the 'Classicals' assume 0 unemployment? They would never assume such, especially not in times of Keynesian coercive 'fiscal stimulus' when inefficient capital investments are subsidised so as to prevent capital clearing where it would raise wages where jobs are sustainable and not part of an intertemporaly misallocated (i.e. propelled by inflation's effect on market nominal interest rates relative to time preference) use of capital which high consumption makes insolvent...

[spikesmth]

@Nintendomanwill Classicals would say that a fully free unregulated market will reach an equilibrium with 0 persistent unemployment.

Don't get me wrong, I don't support the way the bank bailouts were handled. They should have broken them up instead of propping them up.

[surrealnumber]

@spikesmth natural elites as in naturally gifted people, not politicians and other crooks

[Nintendomanwill]

...so then those business cycles generated by government-upheld money creating lending institutions, inevitably create disemployment i.e. cyclical unemployment, which can only be solved by allowing people to lower wages so that their nominal value corresponds with lesser sale of money, and self employment.

Also, Austrian Econ is not the same thing as the political (apolitical) philosophy derived from it, and I can't believe I need say this to someone who has passed a degree in social science.

[spikesmth]

@Nintendomanwill Yes, I understand the the theory, the arguments and justifications. I just don't believe that real life economies will behave so nicely in the wild. Austrians have to make many assumptions which do not hold in real life such as perfect information, perfect competition, and rational actors. I think Austrians have the same problems as almost any school of economics, they describe how people 'should' act and not how they really do.

[richardcadbury]

@spikesmth regarding "rational actors": All humans can be irrational. (Some manage to be irrational pretty much all the time!)

In a free market, irrational actors hurt (primarily) themselves.

In a government ageny, irrational actors hurt (primarily) large numbers of other people.

The key is to find a system where irrationality punished and rationality is rewarded. Perhaps a free market is that very system?

[spikesmth]

@richardcadbury My only objection would be that conceivably a situation could arise where it would be considered rational to harm others for selfish ends. I don't know of a free market solution to the less-desirable aspects of human nature :-)

[bartj777]

@spikesmth I've been studying Austrian economics for over a year now, and I've never heard anyone ever mention anything about "perfect information" or "perfect competition."

Methinks you are blowing at straw men.

[spikesmth]

@bartj777 These are two of about 8 assumptions required for a perfect market. If my understanding of the Austrians is correct, they're about free choice, no interference or coercion and use of free unregulated markets for everything. Obv there's more to it, but I'm just challenging the idea that fully unregulated markets will have the results they think.

[bartj777]

@spikesmth Austrians don't make these assumptions. Again, you are blowing down straw men here. Austrians assume things like that humans act purposefully, that humans prefer to receive a good sooner rather than later, etc. They never assume perfect information or perfect competition. Your eight assumptions either come from some other school or are made up. Either way, your statement that Austrians are making these assumptions is false.

[spikesmth]

@bartj777 The assumptions are the Classical assumptions which, if I'm not mistaken, are also foundational to Austrians. I still think its models do not account for reality sufficiently. (And not that Keynes DOES... I'm just not convinced the results the Austrians promise are realistic.)

[bartj777]

@spikesmth You are mistaken. I have never heard or read anywhere these assumptions in Austrian economics. Please read Human Action by Mises if you want to criticize real Austrian theory instead of tilting at windmills.

[successfulbuild]

@bartj777 It's what austrian economics implies - Austrian economics implies equilibrium, however, rather than studying the results of trade between institutions and so on and so forth, they focus on individual actors, preferring to believe that things like monopolies don't exist.

_

Also, both those axioms are false. Humans do not always act purposefully and do not always prefer more of a good to less. I don't prefer 10 tons of rice to a box of Uncle Ben's.

[032125]

@successfulbuild first, the meaning and context of "monopoly" is very different to an Austrian than to the modern usage. Copyrights and patents are monopolies; large businesses are not, unless they dominate via governmental decree.

Second, we know you don't want ten tons of rice; thus the Law of Marginal Utility. This is one of the most central principles of Austrian Economics.

[bartj777]

@successfulbuild Another person who is tilting at windmills, I see. Austrian economics implies the opposite of equilibrium--it implies a dynamic, ever changing economy. And to say they believe monopolies don't exist means you haven't been paying attention--they talk about it all the time.

[bartj777]

@successfulbuild And of course humans act purposefully. Did you ever accidentally drive a car? As for preferring more over less, of course you would, all things being equal. You don't want ten tons of rice because it would impose a cost on you--where would you store it? But if you were granted an ownership interest of ten tons where someone else would store and sell it for you, of course you would want it over one box.

[constablekohler]

I like this new opening theme.