LOL people need to get a grip. This waterboarding malarkey is used to train navy seals. I wonder how many people have been allowed to die from waterboarding, when in comparison to the amount of people who have died as a direct result of terrorist acts?
If waterboarding one guy for 20seconds and him coming out of the other end alive is what it takes to potentially save hundreds of lives, I say do it.
Fine, stop water boarding, and continue killing the terrorists in the field of battle, take no prisoners, sounds good to me! If we soldiers weren't willing to put our lives in danger for you folks whom are opinionated about the way we fight then you'd be drafted to go fight.
"Cruel and unusual punishment" is banned by the 8th Amendment to the Constitution. But the DoJ reasoned that since we hadn't charged the detainees with any crimes, what we did to them wouldn't count as "punishment." Therefore, interrogators could be as "cruel and unusual" as they liked!
Gut busting brilliant vid Jonathan (if it wasn't so tragic). You shold be a regualr feature on SNL. lol. Can you use a likeness of Chaney like you did with the MG Seigler video? ha, ha.. Bush and Gonzalez could do the chorus.
Oh yeah, just pretend that it dousnt squeeze out information from people who may kill others. I think i would be okay to pour some water on someones face and they WONT die instead of hundreds of others who WOULD be killed. Hang out with those muslim fanatics for awhile and youll be all for water boarding. Dont hate what you DONT KNOW...stupid.
I aint saying its no big deal you mindless idiot. It IS a big deal!! thats Six seconds of phycological fear. Six Seconds to get priceless information. Go hug a tree you Idiot.
the information they give you is CRAP ... i bet cheney, bush and you included would confess anything one would ask you...
but probably you think you are a hero :-))
i know argument like, we prosecuted others for doing this to our soldiers doesn`t count to you.. so what made America great was thrown over board, because mindless morons like you bush and cheney don`t have a brain or are sick kind of ppl who enjoy torture..
Go live in your perfect world, no torture, no Bush, and when the Muslim fanatics come to destroy you, youll wish you had stayed in USA. Your slime on my shoe if you think America isnt great. And keep your Idiotic remarks about what i "proberably" am. You have no clue so dont try to be all coolcat...retard.
Article 5 of the GCIII states that the status of a detainee may be determined by a "competent tribunal." Until such time, he is to be treated as a prisoner of war.[2] After a "competent tribunal" has determined his status, the "Detaining Power" may choose to accord the detained unlawful combatant the rights and privileges of a POW
You religious fundies talk about how moral and upstanding you are, then do everything you can to rationalize torture. You're not moral, you're full of fear and hate. We all know it.
If our way of life was really better in every way, it would 'win' by showing others our freedom and happiness. Torture is a tool of repressive regimes, not 'freedom'.
I'm willing to have an open enough society that I'd risk dying by terrorism occasionally to enjoy real, lasting freedom. That's the price sometimes.
Torture is a terrible way of extracting information. If you torture someone hard enough they will say anything for you to stop, even if what they say is not the truth. You get bad intelligence that way.
wow what a lot os BS words. would be a lot less trouble and more noble to just say "yes it is torture, but they are bad guys and we are at war with them"
why cant cheney and friends act like men instead of trying to twist the words around and weasel out of leagal trouble.
If cheney and chums are convicted in some countries they can face the death penalty.
They have to be careful because they violated people's civil rights, along with the geneva conventions. Sometimes people that had absolutely no business being there were endlessly tortured.
One thing is for sure, torture is great for making people say whatever the hell you want them to say, even if it's not true.
Making shit up hardly seems like a suitable substitute for real intelligence.
The song is meant to reveal how casually and inhumanely the subject was treated by those who orchestrated the waterboardings under the Bush administration. It achieves this end by setting the words of a real torture memo to lyrics. It is not necessary for this song to exercise a technique of intentional ambiguity at its beginning to achieve its end.
excellent song (subscribed!), disturbing concept. sometimes words need to be put into a different context to be understood properly. Someone needs to take Sean Hannity up on his offer to be waterboarded to raise money for the troops. Can we have Keith Olbermann supervise? (ty to Wanda Sykes for that one)
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Obama is ending harsh interrogation methods due to ethics concerns. The CIAs job is now harder but its the right thing to do, Obama assures them. Obama does not apply this same logic to abortion. Why not? Okay, you get an unwanted pregnancy. The easy way out is an abortion. But the ethical way out is to go through with having the baby. Sure, your job will be harder but its the right thing to do.
It is not only the constitution but the Geneva conventions and the rules of armed conflict that apply. For those that argue "The constitution applies to American citizens only" American citizens are doing the waterboarding and the constitution applies to them. Two wrongs do not make anything right.
@Anastius Officially viewed by whom? please answer that! There are universal human rights as mandated by the UN and other treaties just not the US constition. The US Constitution is sovereign law and therefore applies to US territories(and any one inside them) and US citizens anywhere(as to there responsibilities). The Constitution does belong or apply to non US citizen living outside the US. The US does not make the laws for the hole planet.
@fcstech Officially viewed by the United States goverment. That is, US Constitution considers itself as universal rights and as such applies to non-US citizens when considered in crimes committed by US citizens.
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The differents from me and the terrorist is that I didn't like to see over 3,000 people die for no reason.If we have to get information out one way or the other to protect AMERICAN live's let's WATERBOARD atleast were not cutting heads off!!!!
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The waterboarding was and is okay. They made a huge mistake though. They should have tracked down all their family members and captured them also. These nutcase muslims pass it on from generation to generation. We need to take out their whole family and extract info from all. Then get rid of them permanantly
Are you serious? How is this "bleeding heart liberals" when it's just a Bush administration memo VERBATIM. Sounds like someone has a guilty conscience
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I say yes to waterboarding.
We have to get the info out of terrorism.Remember 9-11...I do thay had no feeling when they killed all those people in the towers. So I say yes to terrorizing the terrorist to prevent another 9-11
Our country executed Japanese soldiers who waterboarded American POWs. We executed them for the same crime we are now committing ourselves.
Senator John McCain made that point while campaigning in St. Petersburg, Florida. He said, "Following World War II war crime trials were convened. The Japanese were tried and convicted and hung for war crimes committed against American POWs. Among those charges for which they were convicted was waterboarding."
I wonder if you have any songs of sympathy for the people above the crash floors in the WTC who were being cooked alive , some of whom called 011 and you can find the audio recording of their screams.
I watched the videos, read a lot of the posts, and they all center on either the "law" (left), or if it is actually torture (right). While we may have laws against waterboarding, and many international agencies denounce it, we need to step back and look at it from a human and subjective point of view. The left wants to claim it is "black and white". Plain as day. but are all laws "black and white"? What about murder? We have a dead person, and that person died due to the actions of another...
Is that murder? No, we look at what caused it. Was it 1st degree murder? 2nd degree, or manslaughter? This subject may be defined by law, but it is purely subjective. To blindly follow one side or the other is naive and irresponsible. Look at the situation, and make the decision. As much as I hate to admit it, I trust our presidents to do what they feel is best for the country as a whole. Regardless as to what political ideology you follow, the fact that we are Americans should come first.
Hopefully, we will get to see the rest of the memos that supposedly show justification for the waterboarding. I will refrain from judgement until then.
"As much as I hate to admit it, I trust our presidents to do what they feel is best for the country as a whole. " - It always terrifies me when Americans say that. Professing unconditional trust in the great leader was mandatory in Fascist regimes, but the US seems to be the only place that people do it voluntarily.
How does this work with regime change? Were you trusting Bush when he was torturing, and trusting Obama when he was banning torture?
"As much as I hate to admit it, I trust our presidents to do what they feel is best for the country as a whole."
Please read some history. Please. Start with something simple like Watergate and the Gulf of Tonkin, then work yourself up to the Aliens and Sedition Act, the Red Scare or internment of Japanese-Americans.
The Founding Fathers did not believe in trusting presidents - that's why they split the US government into three parts and created the Consitution.
I am quite familiar with history, I majored in it. And all of your points are valid, but we do vote for a president, who is the "Commander in Chief" of the armed services. Your history is incorrect, our founding fathers DID trust presidents, but they created congress and the supreme court to keep them in check. The founding fathers did not believe in creating a monarchy. Congress can impeach the president.. see something simple... like Watergate.. or Lewinsky. I know my history. You should study
Good for you, but that doesn't really answer the point (which quite a few other people made).
The purpose of "checks and balances" and the reason for rejecting monarchy was a sensible distrust of executive power and the ambition of politicians.
And the examples I cited show that presidential power has been severely abused in US history. Self-respecting citizens should approach state power with scepticism rather than trust to prevent repeats.
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From this Soldiers point of view, water boarding might seem humane but never forget that the Taliban and Al Qaeda would not hesitate to use their own primitive torture methods on our troops if the opportunity ever arose and it would be far worse than anything we ever did to them. For the most part, water boarding was only used in the year following 9-11 because we feared another major attack and regular interrogation methods don't always work if the detainee refuses to speak. Liberal jerks!
So two wrongs make a right. Is that what your mother taught you?
Also, water boarding was done to our troops during World War II by the Japanese. Those that did this were eventually given long jail sentences and hard labor.
Maybe you should open a history book... Nobody was ever convicted in WWII for waterboarding alone... the Japanese that were convicted were guilty of numerous offenses, along with waterboarding.
So they were convicted for the criminal offence of water-boarding then? The fact that they committed other criminal offences (like the Bush administration) doesn't change the nature of that offence.
No, you see, I can see in colors other than black and white. I don't agree with the thought that waterboarding is torture. I am sure that there are laws that you don't agree with, you ignorant shit.
Do you support the death penalty? It's legal in a large majority of states. How about the criminalization of marijuana? Do you blindly follow and support all all laws? You never speed? Drift through a stip sign without coming to a complete stop?
Yep, you've got a special nuanced take on morality, and you know that laws can sometimes be wrong - clever you!
The Imperial Japanese army, the Spanish Inquisition and the Khmer Rouge all used waterboarding - and they used it because they knew full well it was a form of torture, as does everyone who has actually experienced it.
Bush needed evidence to link Saddam to Al Qaeda, and he used 'enhanced interrogation techniques' designed to produce lies in order to get it. What does this prove? It proves that Bush was not just incompetent, he was willfully & criminally incompetent.
Now we must wait & see if the Dept.of Justice will do its job. Prosecute the bastard and his gang of self-confessed criminals.
Worst administration in the history of the USA. Ever.
This piece is brilliant. It is about language. It is about lies, and the lying liars who twist and contort language to confuse and hide true meanings. I hope someone else can take some memos about extraordinary renditions (kidnapping) and set them to music. Music has a way of setting the truth of words to melodious understanding.
I love how the libs out there state that we are "no better than them". We never have been, and we never will be. WE ARE ALL HUMANS... and I think that comes before swearing a loyalty to a country.
With that being said... were we better than them when we killed one hundred and fifty thousand civilians... men, women and children, when our DEMOCRAT president Harry Truman bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Was that justified? We do what we do to protect our way of life. The rules need to be flexible.
Wow. Really?? You really think that the US has become even worse than their enemies? Where pray tell are you from? I will not defend torture and feel we have to accept responsibility for when we err as a nation. Still, If you think we as a nation are as bad as our enemies, let alone worse than they are, you are either ignorant or likely an enemy yourself.
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So, these folks who perpetrated the murders of over 3000 innocent victims, are being related to the Japanese who also killed many innocents in a sneak attack. Again, moral ambiguity here. To intentionally kill massive numbers of innocent people is wrong. If you do this, please EXPECT to have a large explosion turn you into meat juice! They took this right to the line. In my opinion, they did not step over that line. Your assessment may be different. That's America.
You forgot just one thing. Torture is a violation of American law, and at this point, it doesn't appear that Republican torture advocates in Congress have the votes to overturn the law.
The people who are being tortured are classified as enemy combatants, a status which disregards their nationality. As far as the law is concerned, E.C.'s belong to no country, and through a loophole, are allowed to be tortured.
Actually, I was relating the detainees in Gitmo and Bagrahm (some of whom, such as KSM, waterboarded hundreds of times, actually were conspirators involved in 9/11; some of whom, such as Zubaydah, waterboarded over 80 times, were not involved in the 9/11 attacks; some of whom are probably completely innocent) to AMERICAN captives of the Japanese.
I think our moral responsibility as America means we can't just throw up our hands and agree to disagree; our obligation is to be sure to not torture.
Why don't we ask the 3000 men, women and children that were killed in cold blood at the hands of these people? Oh, that's right. We can't. The point is that you might consider these things to be torture, but I do not. These folks defending the US from future catastrophes, collectively, tried to take this right to the line to protect the US from organized attack. Perhaps they got a toe over the line. They did not break the intent of the torture restriction. They deserve our support.
They didn't break the intent? What, pray tell, WAS the intent, then? If not prevent extreme tortuous acts like these? Was there intended to be a caveat that it's okay if used against suspected enemies of the state? Maybe if someone is purported to be part of a force that killed over 3000 of your people, it's OKAY to nigh on drown someone. (For example, in this rule, the Japanese in WWII were clearly in the right "torturing" captured Americans, since our forces killed so many Japanese in WWII.)
medbob1: "Why don't we ask the 3000 men, women and children that were killed in cold blood at the hands of these people?"
Oops, not quite the same people. The military pays bounties in Afghanistan and other places to catch "terrorists". So if you're mad at your neighbor or your bro-in-law, you tell the US army that he's Al Qaeda. They put him in prison, no charges, no trial, no appeal. Bush declares them terrorists with no evidence and you believe him, sucker.
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You should do one that shows what the terrorists do too... something like this....
The terrorist takes his dull knife and places it against the neck of the American.
He then holds the head of the American, in order to prevent a struggle...
He then pulls the knife against the neck of the American... pulling it back and forth until the esophagus is cut... steadily working his way to the windpipe and jugular...
This may result in the American not being able to breath...
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Funny... I would hardly compare waterboarding to having your head cut off... oh yeah, and by the way, the terrorists were cutting off Americans heads long before we started waterboarding them.
That;s funny... are you sure they were only tried for waterboarding Americans? Or were there other offenses?
Please list some references to your statement... I will refer to the non-fiction novel: The Rape of Nanking.
Read that, then tell me that making some douchebag American murdering piece of shit, sit through a faked "I'm gonna drown" scenario is torture. I need some references before I buy your bogus argument.
A reference? How about the Geneva Convention? Waterboarding is specifically recognized as torture. Every civilized country in the world understood that basic fact...until the Bush administration.
Wow,how are we supposed to get information from TERRORISTS? ASK THEM NICELY? Answer this,Do you want to let a terrorist do whatever he wants and withhold vital information that could kill thousands of people? WHAT THE FUCK?
This is an emotional issue, and there is a lot of bad information. No one wants terrorists to murder people. That is why General Petraeus does not condone waterboarding. Torture is a recruitment tool for terrorists that leads to MORE murders. It also makes our troops less safe b/c enemy combatants will fight to the death rather than surrender to armies that will torture them. In WWII Germans surrendered to US, but not USSR for that reason.
Moreover, waterboarding was NEVER designed to get actionable info.
The SERE's manual was created to prepare US soldiers to resist the torture techniques used in totalitarian regimes to obtain FALSE confessions against the state. That is what we got. Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, waterboarded 183x, admitted to an al Queda / Iraq link. We then invaded Iraq based on this false confession. As a psychologist I know that interrogators get better information without violating the Geneva Conventions.
So military lawyer, just which section of G convention covers terrorists?
please tell me so I can inform my military history professor that illegal combatants are actually covered in convention not just some pathetic liberals mind
The third Geneva convention specifically targets *prisoners of war*
Article 12 state that prisoners of war are the responsibility of the state not the persons who capture them and that they may not be transferred to a state that is not party to the Convention.
Articles 13 to 16 states that prisoners of war must be treated humanely without any adverse discrimination and that their medical needs must be met.
This isn't liberal propaganda, this series of international treaties the US is part of
An unlawful combatant or unprivileged combatant/belligerent is a civilian who directly engages in armed conflict in violation of International Humanitarian Law (IHL) and may be detained or prosecuted under the domestic law of the detaining state for such action.
Apparently the term "Torture" is subjective... if you want to call waterboarding "torture", than fine... I guess we torture.
My definition of torture, is leaving a room with less body parts than you entered it with... or, no longer able to comprehend reality.
Personally, and I am NOT a conservative, but I believe that 3rd trimester abortions are torture... let's see... 38 week old fetus... partially taken out of the womb... then scissors stuck in it's head to "pith" it..
Am I a Judge? No, I never claimed to be. But I am a Juror, and I have been one in the past. And if I sat on a Jury to try someone for waterboarding a suspected terrorist... I would more than likely find him innocent. In my humble, non-jurist opinion, I personally belive that waterboarding is not "torture".
And no, I don't think I will have to change my views to run for office. I will do what it takes to protect America, and Americans. Just like what I do now, serving our country.
Deidzoeb, you are correct, I am not a conservative, I am a socially liberal, and fiscally conservative atheist that believes our federal government is out of control... so thank you for the compliment.
"Apparently the term "torture" is subjective...my definition of torture is..."
Or you could just accept the definition of torture established in the Geneva Conventions--which recognizes waterboarding as torture--just as every other civilized culture had done...prior to the Bush administration.
scalfi1, you *did* just compare waterboarding to cutting off heads. Maybe someone else brought it up before you, I haven't read the whole comment thread.
Oh yeah, and by the way, the bad behavior of terrorists or official enemies don't justify our bad behavior, or breaking our own laws, or breaking international laws, thereby violating the US constitution, just because "they started it." And by the way, where do we draw the line for who "started" it?
You are classifying "waterboarding" as bad behavior, or breaking our laws... I don't see it that way, and if I am not mistaken, neither does our president. His admin will not rule it out, but they will prosecute Bush admin officials that authorized it? As far as who started it? I don't know, ask Jimmy Carter... or the terrorists who bombed the World Trade Center in 1993. It's not about who started it, but who will finish it.
You didn't see it that way because you haven't looked up case law. The Bybee memo's were almost the same as the Nazi ones (the lawyers we hung). They also said that as long as a doctor was a round certain methods were not torture. You could google it...but you don't want to know. Is child molestation okay with you, bc Yoo also gave the president that right. Oh and since these crimes don't have a statute of limitation I expect all of them will face justice as soon as more of the boomers die.
First off, name the lawyers we hung exclusively for waterboarding. Name the names, or the case law specifically listing waterboarding as the reason they were put to death, and I will remove my statements. So please, show me this case law of which you speak.
What the hell does child molestation have to do with this?
scalfi1, if you don't "see" waterboarding as breaking our laws, then you are not familiar with our laws. The precedents include American police who were convicted for waterboarding suspects, and Japanese officers from WWII who were convicted under US law for waterboarding. Do a google search for "Drop By Drop forgetting the history of water torture in u.s. courts rough draft" published in the Columbia Jrnl of Transnational Law.
scalfi1, it's funny & sad that your knowledge of history between the US and the Middle East only goes as far back as Jimmy Carter. Read "Overthrow: America's Century of Regime Change from Hawaii to Iraq" or "All the Shah's Men: An American Coup and the Roots of Middle East Terror", both by Stephen Kinzer.
I'm afraid Obama won't bring torturers to justice, but it's because he wants to be bipartisan and focus on economy, not because he's ignorant of the precedents like you.
I only referred to Jimmy Carter because he is more in era of total Middle Eastern F*** ups. And just so you know, I know quite a bit about Middle Eastern history... I actually spent some time in both Iraq and Afghanistan. I would disagree about my ignorance of the precedents... perhaps it is you who is ignorant as to what it actually takes to protect a nation.
Sorry about the confusion, scalfi, but I was talking about your ignorance of US laws and precedents, which wouldn't necessarily be helped by spending time in Iraq or Afghanistan. I suppose vets of Vietnam and Korea and Panama also think they were protecting or defending out country, instead of protecting unpopular, anti-democratic regimes in those places that were hospitable to US investment and demands.
Not even... we do what we need to do to protect our country, and the enhanced interrogation techniques are not "torture".
And just so you know, once I complete my stint in the US Army... (yeah, one of those guys that protected your freedome... and will continue to do so) I will be a voice in modern politics... just a few more years... sorry to burst your bubble.
They have been declared torture in the past...by us. And yes previous regimes tried to argue that since a Dr. was present... Even the terms "enhanced interrogation" came from the Nazis. England was bombed every night, imagine that a 9/11 every night and they still didn't torture. Washington and the founding fathers were against torturing because that is what the Brits had used against them. You won't be a voice in politics unless you change your position. 2016...
To compare modern day waterboarding to Washington and the founding fathers is ridiculous.... I don't know.... duhhhh was slavery torture? A large majority of our founding fathers had slaves. I don't support it, but I believe the definition of torture in the 1700's was vastly different than today. Try again.
"we do what we need to do to protect our country..."
Actually the US govt does what they need to do to make the world safe for capitalism, usually making the world unsafe for democracy, and their PR flacks claim that it's a matter of defending and protecting our country or democracy or freedom. People like you, scalfi1, swallow their claims uncritically. If you read a little more history, you might see what kinds of atrocities have been carried out in the name of "protecting" some country.
deidzoeb.. is it ok to kill 3 pirates holding an American hostage? Is it ok to stick scissors into the skull of an unborn baby? You are running down a slippery slope. Where do you draw the line? Was it ok to nuke Japan? Extreme liberals like yourself think the world is all about hugs and kisses, while people like me serve our country so you can keep thinking that way. I respect your opinion, and we will continue to disagree, I take the same information you have, and made a different decision.
Killing kidnappers and aborting fetuses are way different situations from torturing suspects with waterboarding. I haven't gone near the slippery slope you're trying to build.
Was it ok to nuke Japan? No. The Japanese were sending out feelers to negotiate surrender. Truman demanded "unconditional surrender", then agreed to some conditions anyway.
"Extreme liberals like you...hugs and kisses" shows you don't respect my opinion.
You might intend to protect and defend and serve your *country*, but if you knew more of the history of US foreign policy and military actions, you'd see that being in the military means you serve a small number of people who supposedly represent the whole country. Those people, dems and republicans, have been breaking US laws and international laws by starting wars, claiming that it's necessary to prop up dictators overseas in order to "protect" our country. It harms our country.
Perhaps if you knew more about the history of US foreign policy and military actions, you would see that without our military... who you claim "serve a small number of people who supposedly represent the whole country", you would be speaking German right now. Your statements lead me to believe you are not unlike the people that helped put Hitler into power. You obviously have no respect for me... no problem, I will continue to protect you and what you believe. I wish you well.
"...you are not unlike the people that helped put Hitler into power." = variation on "You're either with us or against us." Black & white thinking is a kind of logical fallacy.
You must consider whether the things you're ordered to do by superiors are really "protecting" the country or doing good. Don't just follow orders blindly. Nazis and Japanese soldiers were convicted by Allies for crimes they committed when "just following orders". Soldiers are held responsible for their actions.
It's people like you that sat back and tried to appease shitheads like Hitler. And you try to turn it around on me? You are the one trying to make this a "black and white" issue. I see in shades of grey. I laughed when I read your post stating that I follow orders blindly, like I am some kind of idiot. I have a masters degree in computer science. I am a CCIE with an emphasis on VOIP... all thanks to me blindly following orders. I am a Warrant Officer in the US Army, and I SMARTLY follow orders.
Oh, a CCIE ... congratulations, seriously, that's the only IT certification I respect. I presume that this means you're open to logic.
If you think it's OK to just hit back when someone hits you--especially when you're not exactly sure it is who hit you--then you haven't studied history.
The main problem with terrorism is that the solution requires rational thought (often unavailable while feeling terrorized) and leadership willing to consider that their models of the world may be flawed.
So if there are times when the CIA needs to use enhanced interrogation techniques... then please do. I would gladly waterboard a piece of shit that is trying to destroy my country if it will save American lives.
And hopefully this will never happen, but if you ever find yourself on the dull end of a terrorist's knife, you can gurgle out the "laws" to them as they saw through your jugular... I'm sure they will stop.
The Japs seserved it. They were in the wrong. They attacked us. In this case, again, we are in the right. Our use of waterboarding was and is completely justified. It is all relative to who is right and who is wrong. There is such a thing as absolute truth. Truth is not relative. We are right and were attcked and therefore any and all means used to defeat the evil muslim terrorist is justified.
I am sure that calling a population of 300 million stupid for what a few did and fewer than half agreed with will help to bring about whatever ideal world you hope for.
Er... the Japanese the ones *using* the waterboard - on US prisoners. And they were tried, convicted and executed for it at the Tokyo tribunals by the Allied governments.
I agree that some things are absolutes - your argument that torture is OK as long as you are generally the good guy (or you really, really think you are) is a relatavist argument.
"the Japanese the ones *using* the waterboard - on US prisoners. And they were tried, convicted and executed for it at the Tokyo tribunals by the Allied governments."
What a RIDICULOUS comparison. You should be ashamed. The Japanese did FAR FAR FAR more than waterboarding. They mutilated and murdered many thousands. To compare it to the waterboarding of THREE terrorist leaders is sickening!
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You fucking freak..
megadethster 3 months ago
Have caught a few of your video's and I think for the most part they are very excellent!!
I like the more serious ones with political overtones. Keep up the good work , and I haven't seen a list of what you deem the better of your work.
Shoopycat 1 year ago
LOVE IT!
priceks 1 year ago
define pain. end of discussion. waterboarding is suffering.
taoaoal 1 year ago
what a horrible sound.
cn4m 1 year ago
Thank you for the song. Disturbing as it was intended.
Wrymenigma 1 year ago
Jerk-off..
MartyHiggins 1 year ago
LOL people need to get a grip. This waterboarding malarkey is used to train navy seals. I wonder how many people have been allowed to die from waterboarding, when in comparison to the amount of people who have died as a direct result of terrorist acts?
If waterboarding one guy for 20seconds and him coming out of the other end alive is what it takes to potentially save hundreds of lives, I say do it.
GoldenbanjoDJ 1 year ago
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WATERBOARDING is TORTURE!!! Dumbass, don't believe me? Then why don't you try it?!? This guy sucks
TheTimmayProductions 1 year ago
@TheTimmayProductions Um, the song is AGAINST torture. You didn't get that?
therockcookiebottom 1 year ago 15
@TheTimmayProductions So we torture our own soldiers? You sir are the DA...
RREDDELL 1 year ago
funny
giggleman 1 year ago
Fine, stop water boarding, and continue killing the terrorists in the field of battle, take no prisoners, sounds good to me! If we soldiers weren't willing to put our lives in danger for you folks whom are opinionated about the way we fight then you'd be drafted to go fight.
kelly502 1 year ago
YOUI GUYS SCARE ISLAMISTS WHAHAH
MrAbitaOne 2 years ago
In the words of Chris Penn, from the movie Reservoir Dogs, "If you torture him long enough he'll tell you he started the goddamn Chicago fire!"
Torture doesn't work, regardless of whether you believe it's right or not.
cottonginchild 2 years ago
You forgot the best part of the memos:
"Cruel and unusual punishment" is banned by the 8th Amendment to the Constitution. But the DoJ reasoned that since we hadn't charged the detainees with any crimes, what we did to them wouldn't count as "punishment." Therefore, interrogators could be as "cruel and unusual" as they liked!
SAGEBOT500 2 years ago 3
clever lil'lawyer basters!
stefanmckinley 2 years ago
Gut busting brilliant vid Jonathan (if it wasn't so tragic). You shold be a regualr feature on SNL. lol. Can you use a likeness of Chaney like you did with the MG Seigler video? ha, ha.. Bush and Gonzalez could do the chorus.
HoosierDaddy9 2 years ago
your music isnt that bad!
jonnygrifff 2 years ago
waterboarding is torture, has always been torture... and it`s a war-crime!! bush needs to be prosecuted!!!
log140 2 years ago 6
Oh yeah, just pretend that it dousnt squeeze out information from people who may kill others. I think i would be okay to pour some water on someones face and they WONT die instead of hundreds of others who WOULD be killed. Hang out with those muslim fanatics for awhile and youll be all for water boarding. Dont hate what you DONT KNOW...stupid.
PACHONGA9 1 year ago
If you like those methods so much, why don`t you just hang out with them.. i don`t see any difference between them and you!!
don`t talk about what you don`t understand.. the last hero who wanted to show us, pouring water on his face was no big deal: lasted 6 seconds!!
log140 1 year ago
I aint saying its no big deal you mindless idiot. It IS a big deal!! thats Six seconds of phycological fear. Six Seconds to get priceless information. Go hug a tree you Idiot.
PACHONGA9 1 year ago
the information they give you is CRAP ... i bet cheney, bush and you included would confess anything one would ask you...
but probably you think you are a hero :-))
i know argument like, we prosecuted others for doing this to our soldiers doesn`t count to you.. so what made America great was thrown over board, because mindless morons like you bush and cheney don`t have a brain or are sick kind of ppl who enjoy torture..
log140 1 year ago
Go live in your perfect world, no torture, no Bush, and when the Muslim fanatics come to destroy you, youll wish you had stayed in USA. Your slime on my shoe if you think America isnt great. And keep your Idiotic remarks about what i "proberably" am. You have no clue so dont try to be all coolcat...retard.
PACHONGA9 1 year ago
your world consists of muslim extremists and bush the chickenhawk hero...!
200 alqueda scared you to death,..
our generation faced the nazis and the kamikaze and didn`t brake the Geneva Convention, moron!!
except being an expert in name calling you are just a stupid sick retarded clown!!
log140 1 year ago
FURTHERMORE
Article 5 of the GCIII states that the status of a detainee may be determined by a "competent tribunal." Until such time, he is to be treated as a prisoner of war.[2] After a "competent tribunal" has determined his status, the "Detaining Power" may choose to accord the detained unlawful combatant the rights and privileges of a POW
abitavets2 2 years ago
You religious fundies talk about how moral and upstanding you are, then do everything you can to rationalize torture. You're not moral, you're full of fear and hate. We all know it.
If our way of life was really better in every way, it would 'win' by showing others our freedom and happiness. Torture is a tool of repressive regimes, not 'freedom'.
I'm willing to have an open enough society that I'd risk dying by terrorism occasionally to enjoy real, lasting freedom. That's the price sometimes.
schneee 2 years ago 3
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what crap.
WIDE SPREAD TORTURE is a tool of repressive regimes
CORRECT ME IF i AM WRONG, UH 3 GUYS GOT BOARDED?
THREE, THEN THE INFORMATION WAS FLOWING.
DONT TRY TO GIVE ME THAT CRAP ABOUT UNRELIABLE INFORMATION. WILL SAY ANYTHING... WHEN INFRMATION IS CORROBORATED THEN RE-VERIFIED.
As a fellow who actually has traveled the dangerous sections of the world
I WILL TELL YOU,
YOU SEEM WEAK TO THOSE WHO WISH HARM ALL FREEDOM LOVING PEOPLE.
WILL RISK LIVING IN AN OPEN SOCIETY(NOT BORDERS THO)
AbitaVets 2 years ago
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Excellent work!
RoscoesRiffs 2 years ago
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RoscoesRiffs 2 years ago
Torture is a terrible way of extracting information. If you torture someone hard enough they will say anything for you to stop, even if what they say is not the truth. You get bad intelligence that way.
Arxces 2 years ago 4
its true torture doesn't work often but they aren't afraid to die so this is the closest we get unless we put then in a tub of pork
thegodfather9879 2 years ago
LMAO
wow what a lot os BS words. would be a lot less trouble and more noble to just say "yes it is torture, but they are bad guys and we are at war with them"
why cant cheney and friends act like men instead of trying to twist the words around and weasel out of leagal trouble.
sad.
mostecri 2 years ago
If cheney and chums are convicted in some countries they can face the death penalty.
They have to be careful because they violated people's civil rights, along with the geneva conventions. Sometimes people that had absolutely no business being there were endlessly tortured.
One thing is for sure, torture is great for making people say whatever the hell you want them to say, even if it's not true.
Making shit up hardly seems like a suitable substitute for real intelligence.
leskop 2 years ago
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Bullshti
AbitaVets 2 years ago
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Are you stupid? Civil rights?, show me where U.S. constitution actually extends beyond our shores?
You may attempt to show U.S. military bases are indeed SOVEREIGN TERRITORY(you will fail)
AbitaVets 2 years ago
very good :D
dakok 2 years ago
The contrast between the lyrics and the melody is amasing. Great vid.
blackacadian 2 years ago
boooooooooring
Pass3Part0ut 2 years ago
I think Modest Mouse already did this song at some point in their career.
noizyme 2 years ago 2
this is marvelous yet disturbing.
our government is sick
omgelesa 2 years ago
@DOGLOG420
The song is meant to reveal how casually and inhumanely the subject was treated by those who orchestrated the waterboardings under the Bush administration. It achieves this end by setting the words of a real torture memo to lyrics. It is not necessary for this song to exercise a technique of intentional ambiguity at its beginning to achieve its end.
christiangoth84 2 years ago
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Thanks for Obama that saved us from the Devils:)) I hope to not see them for ages:) you know what I mean by them:))
Long life Obama!
ferooz303 2 years ago
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ferooz303 2 years ago
excellent song (subscribed!), disturbing concept. sometimes words need to be put into a different context to be understood properly. Someone needs to take Sean Hannity up on his offer to be waterboarded to raise money for the troops. Can we have Keith Olbermann supervise? (ty to Wanda Sykes for that one)
Ocker3 2 years ago
very well done - and good for you that you were featured on wnyc
markyturner 2 years ago 2
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Obama is ending harsh interrogation methods due to ethics concerns. The CIAs job is now harder but its the right thing to do, Obama assures them. Obama does not apply this same logic to abortion. Why not? Okay, you get an unwanted pregnancy. The easy way out is an abortion. But the ethical way out is to go through with having the baby. Sure, your job will be harder but its the right thing to do.
fulbert4605 2 years ago
It is not only the constitution but the Geneva conventions and the rules of armed conflict that apply. For those that argue "The constitution applies to American citizens only" American citizens are doing the waterboarding and the constitution applies to them. Two wrongs do not make anything right.
fcstech 2 years ago 13
@fcstech Also, the US Constitution is officially viewed as a list of natural rights belonging to every person regardless of nationality or location.
Anastius 1 year ago
@Anastius Officially viewed by whom? please answer that! There are universal human rights as mandated by the UN and other treaties just not the US constition. The US Constitution is sovereign law and therefore applies to US territories(and any one inside them) and US citizens anywhere(as to there responsibilities). The Constitution does belong or apply to non US citizen living outside the US. The US does not make the laws for the hole planet.
fcstech 1 year ago
@fcstech Correction It should read The Constition DOES NOT belong
fcstech 1 year ago
@fcstech Officially viewed by the United States goverment. That is, US Constitution considers itself as universal rights and as such applies to non-US citizens when considered in crimes committed by US citizens.
Anastius 1 year ago
@fcstech fucking hippie it saves American lives for the price of suffering from 1 person who dedicates their life to destroying others lives
guhudaa 9 months ago
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The differents from me and the terrorist is that I didn't like to see over 3,000 people die for no reason.If we have to get information out one way or the other to protect AMERICAN live's let's WATERBOARD atleast were not cutting heads off!!!!
acbigbear 2 years ago
You live in a free country. As a result, you are sometimes not safe. Freedom > safety. Get used to it or move to China.
Also, learn to fucking spell.
Freecell82 2 years ago 3
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The waterboarding was and is okay. They made a huge mistake though. They should have tracked down all their family members and captured them also. These nutcase muslims pass it on from generation to generation. We need to take out their whole family and extract info from all. Then get rid of them permanantly
wo4091 2 years ago
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The memo sounds like everything that the terrorist, not detainee needs. Kind of lite if you ask me. They sould have pulled their finger nails also
wo4091 2 years ago
Are you serious? How is this "bleeding heart liberals" when it's just a Bush administration memo VERBATIM. Sounds like someone has a guilty conscience
aventari 2 years ago 2
This is brilliant. Thank you for this song.
peacevehicle 2 years ago
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I say yes to waterboarding.
We have to get the info out of terrorism.Remember 9-11...I do thay had no feeling when they killed all those people in the towers. So I say yes to terrorizing the terrorist to prevent another 9-11
acbigbear 2 years ago
Let's start by waterboarding you. Anyone who advocates torture is no better than a terrorist.
homerth1555 2 years ago
Anyone that thinks torture is good is going against the U.S. Constitution.
JonWaz 2 years ago 2
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The constitution applies to American citizens only
wo4091 2 years ago
It's U.S. citizens committing the crime.
JonWaz 2 years ago
Nancy pelosi was heading the Intelligence committee at the time so she would be the most to blame
StupidDetector 2 years ago
~EPIC SONG!!~
and stop posting comments about politics! Just comment for what the video is, which is awesome :D
mattutubematt 2 years ago 2
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I'm all for torturing terrorists but this is incredibly stupid.
skylorde 2 years ago
Sounds like Lou Reed Berlin
CarryANation 2 years ago
** I move away from the mic to breathe in
Freecell82 2 years ago
That's Jay Bybee's actual logic, ladies and germs.
Taughtology 2 years ago
I smell a new Chocolate Rain...
permanenthursday 2 years ago 2
try some air freshener or burning a scented candle
R4ndomCrap 2 years ago
"Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security" - Benjamin Franklin
Ponzipundit 2 years ago 5
Our country executed Japanese soldiers who waterboarded American POWs. We executed them for the same crime we are now committing ourselves.
Senator John McCain made that point while campaigning in St. Petersburg, Florida. He said, "Following World War II war crime trials were convened. The Japanese were tried and convicted and hung for war crimes committed against American POWs. Among those charges for which they were convicted was waterboarding."
Ponzipundit 2 years ago 2
What do you become if you have such hatred that you would bite the face off of evil? We cannot be a good nation if there is torture allowed anywhere.
Oznow 2 years ago
I wonder if you have any songs of sympathy for the people above the crash floors in the WTC who were being cooked alive , some of whom called 011 and you can find the audio recording of their screams.
That is Pain and suffering
VinceP1974 2 years ago
Awesome
Jerseygirltoo 2 years ago
Very good, it really hits home harder like this.
HuhOhIc 2 years ago
My new favorite song
LargeHairyPenis 2 years ago
I watched the videos, read a lot of the posts, and they all center on either the "law" (left), or if it is actually torture (right). While we may have laws against waterboarding, and many international agencies denounce it, we need to step back and look at it from a human and subjective point of view. The left wants to claim it is "black and white". Plain as day. but are all laws "black and white"? What about murder? We have a dead person, and that person died due to the actions of another...
Livelyone11 2 years ago
Is that murder? No, we look at what caused it. Was it 1st degree murder? 2nd degree, or manslaughter? This subject may be defined by law, but it is purely subjective. To blindly follow one side or the other is naive and irresponsible. Look at the situation, and make the decision. As much as I hate to admit it, I trust our presidents to do what they feel is best for the country as a whole. Regardless as to what political ideology you follow, the fact that we are Americans should come first.
Livelyone11 2 years ago
Hopefully, we will get to see the rest of the memos that supposedly show justification for the waterboarding. I will refrain from judgement until then.
Livelyone11 2 years ago
"As much as I hate to admit it, I trust our presidents to do what they feel is best for the country as a whole. " - It always terrifies me when Americans say that. Professing unconditional trust in the great leader was mandatory in Fascist regimes, but the US seems to be the only place that people do it voluntarily.
How does this work with regime change? Were you trusting Bush when he was torturing, and trusting Obama when he was banning torture?
rsynnott 2 years ago
"As much as I hate to admit it, I trust our presidents to do what they feel is best for the country as a whole."
Please read some history. Please. Start with something simple like Watergate and the Gulf of Tonkin, then work yourself up to the Aliens and Sedition Act, the Red Scare or internment of Japanese-Americans.
The Founding Fathers did not believe in trusting presidents - that's why they split the US government into three parts and created the Consitution.
alexhiggins80 2 years ago
I am quite familiar with history, I majored in it. And all of your points are valid, but we do vote for a president, who is the "Commander in Chief" of the armed services. Your history is incorrect, our founding fathers DID trust presidents, but they created congress and the supreme court to keep them in check. The founding fathers did not believe in creating a monarchy. Congress can impeach the president.. see something simple... like Watergate.. or Lewinsky. I know my history. You should study
Livelyone11 2 years ago
Good for you, but that doesn't really answer the point (which quite a few other people made).
The purpose of "checks and balances" and the reason for rejecting monarchy was a sensible distrust of executive power and the ambition of politicians.
And the examples I cited show that presidential power has been severely abused in US history. Self-respecting citizens should approach state power with scepticism rather than trust to prevent repeats.
alexhiggins80 2 years ago
genius :) that was brilliant.
getbentforever2 2 years ago
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From this Soldiers point of view, water boarding might seem humane but never forget that the Taliban and Al Qaeda would not hesitate to use their own primitive torture methods on our troops if the opportunity ever arose and it would be far worse than anything we ever did to them. For the most part, water boarding was only used in the year following 9-11 because we feared another major attack and regular interrogation methods don't always work if the detainee refuses to speak. Liberal jerks!
mwells123 2 years ago
So two wrongs make a right. Is that what your mother taught you?
Also, water boarding was done to our troops during World War II by the Japanese. Those that did this were eventually given long jail sentences and hard labor.
Crack open a history book some time, aye?
Laramas 2 years ago 5
Maybe you should open a history book... Nobody was ever convicted in WWII for waterboarding alone... the Japanese that were convicted were guilty of numerous offenses, along with waterboarding.
scalfi1 2 years ago
"...along with waterboarding."
So they were convicted for the criminal offence of water-boarding then? The fact that they committed other criminal offences (like the Bush administration) doesn't change the nature of that offence.
Is that the best you can do?
alexhiggins80 2 years ago
No, you see, I can see in colors other than black and white. I don't agree with the thought that waterboarding is torture. I am sure that there are laws that you don't agree with, you ignorant shit.
Do you support the death penalty? It's legal in a large majority of states. How about the criminalization of marijuana? Do you blindly follow and support all all laws? You never speed? Drift through a stip sign without coming to a complete stop?
scalfi1 2 years ago
Yep, you've got a special nuanced take on morality, and you know that laws can sometimes be wrong - clever you!
The Imperial Japanese army, the Spanish Inquisition and the Khmer Rouge all used waterboarding - and they used it because they knew full well it was a form of torture, as does everyone who has actually experienced it.
alexhiggins80 2 years ago 2
you're god damn wrong that's what i was taught. eye for a fucking eye
mwells123 2 years ago
"eye for a fucking eye"
...makes the whole world fucking blind.
alexhiggins80 2 years ago
What a stupid answer... everyone has TWO EYES.... an eye for an eye makes everyone a pirate. Invest in eye patches.
scalfi1 2 years ago
Re: scalfi1. Depends if you stop after the first eye, really.
alexhiggins80 2 years ago
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Bush needed evidence to link Saddam to Al Qaeda, and he used 'enhanced interrogation techniques' designed to produce lies in order to get it. What does this prove? It proves that Bush was not just incompetent, he was willfully & criminally incompetent.
Now we must wait & see if the Dept.of Justice will do its job. Prosecute the bastard and his gang of self-confessed criminals.
Worst administration in the history of the USA. Ever.
Silberdachs 2 years ago 2
This piece is brilliant. It is about language. It is about lies, and the lying liars who twist and contort language to confuse and hide true meanings. I hope someone else can take some memos about extraordinary renditions (kidnapping) and set them to music. Music has a way of setting the truth of words to melodious understanding.
Oznow 2 years ago 2
Democracy is 2 wolves fighting over one Lamb
Constitutional Republic is a Armed Lama Contesting the vote
even if we kiss Fascist Islam and Fascist Sharia law and never tortured they would still torture US troops/Civilians or other people
Diplomacy with out having force to back it up is useless and naive
freedombase 2 years ago
fuck bush to hell
plenum222 2 years ago
Just showed this to my liberal wife.... she laughed her ass off. i love this video!
scalfi1 2 years ago
I love how the libs out there state that we are "no better than them". We never have been, and we never will be. WE ARE ALL HUMANS... and I think that comes before swearing a loyalty to a country.
With that being said... were we better than them when we killed one hundred and fifty thousand civilians... men, women and children, when our DEMOCRAT president Harry Truman bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Was that justified? We do what we do to protect our way of life. The rules need to be flexible.
scalfi1 2 years ago
And just so we all know... an "eye for an eye" does not result in the world being blind... it results in a bunch of pirates.
Invest in eye patches.
scalfi1 2 years ago
...speaking of eye patches...
"In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is an idiot."
and, reflecting upon the poetry of Gertrude Stein, which was reflected on by Hemingway:
"An eye, for an eye, for an eye, for an eye, is an onion."
(Daedalus)
ADHDTV93 2 years ago
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scalfi1 2 years ago
America, if it consoles you for being nothing else....you are right.
pigneguy 2 years ago
Congrats to the US for becoming even worse than their enemies.
illegalusername 2 years ago 2
Wow. Really?? You really think that the US has become even worse than their enemies? Where pray tell are you from? I will not defend torture and feel we have to accept responsibility for when we err as a nation. Still, If you think we as a nation are as bad as our enemies, let alone worse than they are, you are either ignorant or likely an enemy yourself.
byebyecow 2 years ago
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92451721921892113 2 years ago
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So, these folks who perpetrated the murders of over 3000 innocent victims, are being related to the Japanese who also killed many innocents in a sneak attack. Again, moral ambiguity here. To intentionally kill massive numbers of innocent people is wrong. If you do this, please EXPECT to have a large explosion turn you into meat juice! They took this right to the line. In my opinion, they did not step over that line. Your assessment may be different. That's America.
medbob1 2 years ago
You forgot just one thing. Torture is a violation of American law, and at this point, it doesn't appear that Republican torture advocates in Congress have the votes to overturn the law.
SandorFne 2 years ago
The people who are being tortured are classified as enemy combatants, a status which disregards their nationality. As far as the law is concerned, E.C.'s belong to no country, and through a loophole, are allowed to be tortured.
CapinKrunch814 2 years ago
Key word in your post "as far as I know" the thing is I can tell you don't know ANYTHING about this subject, or the law. You could find out...
grlykool 2 years ago
Actually, I was relating the detainees in Gitmo and Bagrahm (some of whom, such as KSM, waterboarded hundreds of times, actually were conspirators involved in 9/11; some of whom, such as Zubaydah, waterboarded over 80 times, were not involved in the 9/11 attacks; some of whom are probably completely innocent) to AMERICAN captives of the Japanese.
I think our moral responsibility as America means we can't just throw up our hands and agree to disagree; our obligation is to be sure to not torture.
nestpasunepipe 2 years ago
Absolutely amazingly excellent mind-fuck. Brilliant. Thank you.
pixelpump22 2 years ago
Why don't we ask the 3000 men, women and children that were killed in cold blood at the hands of these people? Oh, that's right. We can't. The point is that you might consider these things to be torture, but I do not. These folks defending the US from future catastrophes, collectively, tried to take this right to the line to protect the US from organized attack. Perhaps they got a toe over the line. They did not break the intent of the torture restriction. They deserve our support.
medbob1 2 years ago
They didn't break the intent? What, pray tell, WAS the intent, then? If not prevent extreme tortuous acts like these? Was there intended to be a caveat that it's okay if used against suspected enemies of the state? Maybe if someone is purported to be part of a force that killed over 3000 of your people, it's OKAY to nigh on drown someone. (For example, in this rule, the Japanese in WWII were clearly in the right "torturing" captured Americans, since our forces killed so many Japanese in WWII.)
nestpasunepipe 2 years ago 3
you're a disgusting human being I just wanted to let you know :)
banopr 2 years ago 2
medbob1: "Why don't we ask the 3000 men, women and children that were killed in cold blood at the hands of these people?"
Oops, not quite the same people. The military pays bounties in Afghanistan and other places to catch "terrorists". So if you're mad at your neighbor or your bro-in-law, you tell the US army that he's Al Qaeda. They put him in prison, no charges, no trial, no appeal. Bush declares them terrorists with no evidence and you believe him, sucker.
deidzoeb 2 years ago
you are a handsome man i want to touch you
vaginadeluxe 2 years ago
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You should do one that shows what the terrorists do too... something like this....
The terrorist takes his dull knife and places it against the neck of the American.
He then holds the head of the American, in order to prevent a struggle...
He then pulls the knife against the neck of the American... pulling it back and forth until the esophagus is cut... steadily working his way to the windpipe and jugular...
This may result in the American not being able to breath...
scalfi1 2 years ago
Eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
deidzoeb 2 years ago 2
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Funny... I would hardly compare waterboarding to having your head cut off... oh yeah, and by the way, the terrorists were cutting off Americans heads long before we started waterboarding them.
scalfi1 2 years ago
Some of our guys were waterboarded by the Japanese in WW2. The Japanese were then tried as war criminals and executed.
SAgreatn 2 years ago 2
That;s funny... are you sure they were only tried for waterboarding Americans? Or were there other offenses?
Please list some references to your statement... I will refer to the non-fiction novel: The Rape of Nanking.
Read that, then tell me that making some douchebag American murdering piece of shit, sit through a faked "I'm gonna drown" scenario is torture. I need some references before I buy your bogus argument.
scalfi1 2 years ago
A reference? How about the Geneva Convention? Waterboarding is specifically recognized as torture. Every civilized country in the world understood that basic fact...until the Bush administration.
Ponzipundit 2 years ago
Wow,how are we supposed to get information from TERRORISTS? ASK THEM NICELY? Answer this,Do you want to let a terrorist do whatever he wants and withhold vital information that could kill thousands of people? WHAT THE FUCK?
rustedlunchbox 2 years ago
This is an emotional issue, and there is a lot of bad information. No one wants terrorists to murder people. That is why General Petraeus does not condone waterboarding. Torture is a recruitment tool for terrorists that leads to MORE murders. It also makes our troops less safe b/c enemy combatants will fight to the death rather than surrender to armies that will torture them. In WWII Germans surrendered to US, but not USSR for that reason.
Ponzipundit 2 years ago 2
Moreover, waterboarding was NEVER designed to get actionable info.
The SERE's manual was created to prepare US soldiers to resist the torture techniques used in totalitarian regimes to obtain FALSE confessions against the state. That is what we got. Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, waterboarded 183x, admitted to an al Queda / Iraq link. We then invaded Iraq based on this false confession. As a psychologist I know that interrogators get better information without violating the Geneva Conventions.
Ponzipundit 2 years ago 2
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So military lawyer, just which section of G convention covers terrorists?
please tell me so I can inform my military history professor that illegal combatants are actually covered in convention not just some pathetic liberals mind
AbitaVets 2 years ago
The third Geneva convention specifically targets *prisoners of war*
Article 12 state that prisoners of war are the responsibility of the state not the persons who capture them and that they may not be transferred to a state that is not party to the Convention.
Articles 13 to 16 states that prisoners of war must be treated humanely without any adverse discrimination and that their medical needs must be met.
This isn't liberal propaganda, this series of international treaties the US is part of
leskop 2 years ago
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NOPE, SORRY
An unlawful combatant or unprivileged combatant/belligerent is a civilian who directly engages in armed conflict in violation of International Humanitarian Law (IHL) and may be detained or prosecuted under the domestic law of the detaining state for such action.
abitavets2 2 years ago
Then what's the point to waterboard them? Sorry but if you torture people you are no better than they are.
numnunums 2 years ago
Apparently the term "Torture" is subjective... if you want to call waterboarding "torture", than fine... I guess we torture.
My definition of torture, is leaving a room with less body parts than you entered it with... or, no longer able to comprehend reality.
Personally, and I am NOT a conservative, but I believe that 3rd trimester abortions are torture... let's see... 38 week old fetus... partially taken out of the womb... then scissors stuck in it's head to "pith" it..
scalfi1 2 years ago
You are not a jurist, your definition of torture doesn't matter. I suspect you haven't read any previous legal opinions on the subject.
grlykool 2 years ago 2
Am I a Judge? No, I never claimed to be. But I am a Juror, and I have been one in the past. And if I sat on a Jury to try someone for waterboarding a suspected terrorist... I would more than likely find him innocent. In my humble, non-jurist opinion, I personally belive that waterboarding is not "torture".
And no, I don't think I will have to change my views to run for office. I will do what it takes to protect America, and Americans. Just like what I do now, serving our country.
scalfi1 2 years ago
scalfi1, your definition of torture does not jibe with legal definitions within the US or under international law.
You're not a conservative, you just play one on tv.
deidzoeb 2 years ago
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scalfi1 2 years ago
Deidzoeb, you are correct, I am not a conservative, I am a socially liberal, and fiscally conservative atheist that believes our federal government is out of control... so thank you for the compliment.
scalfi1 2 years ago
"Apparently the term "torture" is subjective...my definition of torture is..."
Or you could just accept the definition of torture established in the Geneva Conventions--which recognizes waterboarding as torture--just as every other civilized culture had done...prior to the Bush administration.
Ponzipundit 2 years ago 4
scalfi1, you *did* just compare waterboarding to cutting off heads. Maybe someone else brought it up before you, I haven't read the whole comment thread.
Oh yeah, and by the way, the bad behavior of terrorists or official enemies don't justify our bad behavior, or breaking our own laws, or breaking international laws, thereby violating the US constitution, just because "they started it." And by the way, where do we draw the line for who "started" it?
deidzoeb 2 years ago 2
You are classifying "waterboarding" as bad behavior, or breaking our laws... I don't see it that way, and if I am not mistaken, neither does our president. His admin will not rule it out, but they will prosecute Bush admin officials that authorized it? As far as who started it? I don't know, ask Jimmy Carter... or the terrorists who bombed the World Trade Center in 1993. It's not about who started it, but who will finish it.
scalfi1 2 years ago
You didn't see it that way because you haven't looked up case law. The Bybee memo's were almost the same as the Nazi ones (the lawyers we hung). They also said that as long as a doctor was a round certain methods were not torture. You could google it...but you don't want to know. Is child molestation okay with you, bc Yoo also gave the president that right. Oh and since these crimes don't have a statute of limitation I expect all of them will face justice as soon as more of the boomers die.
grlykool 2 years ago
First off, name the lawyers we hung exclusively for waterboarding. Name the names, or the case law specifically listing waterboarding as the reason they were put to death, and I will remove my statements. So please, show me this case law of which you speak.
What the hell does child molestation have to do with this?
scalfi1 2 years ago
scalfi1, if you don't "see" waterboarding as breaking our laws, then you are not familiar with our laws. The precedents include American police who were convicted for waterboarding suspects, and Japanese officers from WWII who were convicted under US law for waterboarding. Do a google search for "Drop By Drop forgetting the history of water torture in u.s. courts rough draft" published in the Columbia Jrnl of Transnational Law.
deidzoeb 2 years ago
scalfi1, it's funny & sad that your knowledge of history between the US and the Middle East only goes as far back as Jimmy Carter. Read "Overthrow: America's Century of Regime Change from Hawaii to Iraq" or "All the Shah's Men: An American Coup and the Roots of Middle East Terror", both by Stephen Kinzer.
I'm afraid Obama won't bring torturers to justice, but it's because he wants to be bipartisan and focus on economy, not because he's ignorant of the precedents like you.
deidzoeb 2 years ago
I only referred to Jimmy Carter because he is more in era of total Middle Eastern F*** ups. And just so you know, I know quite a bit about Middle Eastern history... I actually spent some time in both Iraq and Afghanistan. I would disagree about my ignorance of the precedents... perhaps it is you who is ignorant as to what it actually takes to protect a nation.
scalfi1 2 years ago
Sorry about the confusion, scalfi, but I was talking about your ignorance of US laws and precedents, which wouldn't necessarily be helped by spending time in Iraq or Afghanistan. I suppose vets of Vietnam and Korea and Panama also think they were protecting or defending out country, instead of protecting unpopular, anti-democratic regimes in those places that were hospitable to US investment and demands.
Torture does not protect any nation.
deidzoeb 2 years ago
So you're saying we're terrorist too, scalfi1?
I'm glad people like you don't have a voice in modern politics.
numnunums 2 years ago
Not even... we do what we need to do to protect our country, and the enhanced interrogation techniques are not "torture".
And just so you know, once I complete my stint in the US Army... (yeah, one of those guys that protected your freedome... and will continue to do so) I will be a voice in modern politics... just a few more years... sorry to burst your bubble.
scalfi1 2 years ago
They have been declared torture in the past...by us. And yes previous regimes tried to argue that since a Dr. was present... Even the terms "enhanced interrogation" came from the Nazis. England was bombed every night, imagine that a 9/11 every night and they still didn't torture. Washington and the founding fathers were against torturing because that is what the Brits had used against them. You won't be a voice in politics unless you change your position. 2016...
grlykool 2 years ago 2
To compare modern day waterboarding to Washington and the founding fathers is ridiculous.... I don't know.... duhhhh was slavery torture? A large majority of our founding fathers had slaves. I don't support it, but I believe the definition of torture in the 1700's was vastly different than today. Try again.
scalfi1 2 years ago
"we do what we need to do to protect our country..."
Actually the US govt does what they need to do to make the world safe for capitalism, usually making the world unsafe for democracy, and their PR flacks claim that it's a matter of defending and protecting our country or democracy or freedom. People like you, scalfi1, swallow their claims uncritically. If you read a little more history, you might see what kinds of atrocities have been carried out in the name of "protecting" some country.
deidzoeb 2 years ago
deidzoeb.. is it ok to kill 3 pirates holding an American hostage? Is it ok to stick scissors into the skull of an unborn baby? You are running down a slippery slope. Where do you draw the line? Was it ok to nuke Japan? Extreme liberals like yourself think the world is all about hugs and kisses, while people like me serve our country so you can keep thinking that way. I respect your opinion, and we will continue to disagree, I take the same information you have, and made a different decision.
scalfi1 2 years ago
Killing kidnappers and aborting fetuses are way different situations from torturing suspects with waterboarding. I haven't gone near the slippery slope you're trying to build.
Was it ok to nuke Japan? No. The Japanese were sending out feelers to negotiate surrender. Truman demanded "unconditional surrender", then agreed to some conditions anyway.
"Extreme liberals like you...hugs and kisses" shows you don't respect my opinion.
deidzoeb 2 years ago
You might intend to protect and defend and serve your *country*, but if you knew more of the history of US foreign policy and military actions, you'd see that being in the military means you serve a small number of people who supposedly represent the whole country. Those people, dems and republicans, have been breaking US laws and international laws by starting wars, claiming that it's necessary to prop up dictators overseas in order to "protect" our country. It harms our country.
deidzoeb 2 years ago 2
Perhaps if you knew more about the history of US foreign policy and military actions, you would see that without our military... who you claim "serve a small number of people who supposedly represent the whole country", you would be speaking German right now. Your statements lead me to believe you are not unlike the people that helped put Hitler into power. You obviously have no respect for me... no problem, I will continue to protect you and what you believe. I wish you well.
scalfi1 2 years ago
"...you are not unlike the people that helped put Hitler into power." = variation on "You're either with us or against us." Black & white thinking is a kind of logical fallacy.
You must consider whether the things you're ordered to do by superiors are really "protecting" the country or doing good. Don't just follow orders blindly. Nazis and Japanese soldiers were convicted by Allies for crimes they committed when "just following orders". Soldiers are held responsible for their actions.
deidzoeb 2 years ago
It's people like you that sat back and tried to appease shitheads like Hitler. And you try to turn it around on me? You are the one trying to make this a "black and white" issue. I see in shades of grey. I laughed when I read your post stating that I follow orders blindly, like I am some kind of idiot. I have a masters degree in computer science. I am a CCIE with an emphasis on VOIP... all thanks to me blindly following orders. I am a Warrant Officer in the US Army, and I SMARTLY follow orders.
scalfi1 2 years ago
Oh, a CCIE ... congratulations, seriously, that's the only IT certification I respect. I presume that this means you're open to logic.
If you think it's OK to just hit back when someone hits you--especially when you're not exactly sure it is who hit you--then you haven't studied history.
The main problem with terrorism is that the solution requires rational thought (often unavailable while feeling terrorized) and leadership willing to consider that their models of the world may be flawed.
bradmoreso 2 years ago
So if there are times when the CIA needs to use enhanced interrogation techniques... then please do. I would gladly waterboard a piece of shit that is trying to destroy my country if it will save American lives.
And hopefully this will never happen, but if you ever find yourself on the dull end of a terrorist's knife, you can gurgle out the "laws" to them as they saw through your jugular... I'm sure they will stop.
scalfi1 2 years ago
how do you feel about the japanese soldiers who were executed after ww2 for waterboarding american pows?
VitaminJyo 2 years ago 5
The Japs seserved it. They were in the wrong. They attacked us. In this case, again, we are in the right. Our use of waterboarding was and is completely justified. It is all relative to who is right and who is wrong. There is such a thing as absolute truth. Truth is not relative. We are right and were attcked and therefore any and all means used to defeat the evil muslim terrorist is justified.
wo4091 2 years ago
if truth is not relative, then how can waterboarding be wrong for the japanese and right for us?
musososeki 2 years ago
is this ironic?
I hope so but with those stupid US-Americans you never know.
aikiseppuku 2 years ago
It's the language of the declassified Bybee memos put to song.
alexhiggins80 2 years ago
@aikiseppuku
I am sure that calling a population of 300 million stupid for what a few did and fewer than half agreed with will help to bring about whatever ideal world you hope for.
christiangoth84 2 years ago
Er... the Japanese the ones *using* the waterboard - on US prisoners. And they were tried, convicted and executed for it at the Tokyo tribunals by the Allied governments.
I agree that some things are absolutes - your argument that torture is OK as long as you are generally the good guy (or you really, really think you are) is a relatavist argument.
alexhiggins80 2 years ago 10
"the Japanese the ones *using* the waterboard - on US prisoners. And they were tried, convicted and executed for it at the Tokyo tribunals by the Allied governments."
What a RIDICULOUS comparison. You should be ashamed. The Japanese did FAR FAR FAR more than waterboarding. They mutilated and murdered many thousands. To compare it to the waterboarding of THREE terrorist leaders is sickening!
tobiasrobbins72 2 years ago