Romans clearly tells us that there are two Adams, both representing mankind. The first Adam brought sin into the world and through the first Adam all are sinners. The second Adam, Christ, came to undo the works of the first Adam. The law had been given to condemn mankind in sin. Then the perfect man, Christ, second Adam, dies for mankind and rises to give man newness of life. It is a matter of changing identities. Are you now in the first Adam or the second Adam?
@pegcage Do you mean by 'through the first Adam all are sinners' to mean that we sinned in Adam, and are thus all personally born guilty of 'original sin'? All of the ante-Nicene Church fathers never knew about this doctrine because it was invented by (St) Augustine in the 5th century. Augustine's Latin Vulgate translation by St Jerome of Romans 5:12 was faulty and Augustine couldn't read any Greek to see that St Jerome had misinterpreted the ambiguity in the original text.
@pegcage The Vulgate says in verse 12, '...in quo omnes peccaverunt' (in whom all have sinned). However, the original Greek ought to read '...because all have sinned'. Most modern translations translate the verse this way. The KJV says '...for that all have sinned'. In any case, this verse would support a view of 'ancestral sin', where all were/are fallen - but, nevertheless, no one is personally guilty of 'Adam's sin'.
@pegcage (St) Augustine departed from all other Church fathers in teaching that all of humanity is personally guilty of 'original sin'. Catholicism and most of Protestantism (and especially Calvinism) make a major issue of each person born into this world, being guilty. Eastern Orthodoxy doesn't see 'the fall' in this legal way. We are born fallen - but not guilty.
While in the grave, Christ descended into Hades (the realm of the dead/death itself) and utterly took it captive by filling it with his divinity!!! This is how we are both saved and being saved. The scriptures say that God was reconciling the world to himself - not that he was being reconciled to the world!
medieval Catholic and Reformation theories of the atonement. The early Christians and Church Fathers taught that Christ came to bring us life through the Incarnation. He became man so that we could become deified. Also, Christ came to decisively defeat Satan, evil, and Hades (i.e. death itself). His love for humankind is so incomprehensible that when Satan and the powers of evil put him to death, he took utterly took them captive! Being God and Life itself, death could not hold him.
This view called 'Penal Substitution' is the invention of Calvin in the 16th century. He was a lawyer and that's partly why the theory is so 'legalistic'. Calvin and the other Reformers built on the novel medieval Roman Catholic 'Satisfaction' theory invented by Anselm, who was an Archbishop of Canterbury in the 11th century. Before Anselm - for over 1000 years - there is no reference to these ideas anywhere in Christan theology! This fact alone should make every Christian suspicious of both
My Wife Left Me, Commited Adultery With Some Guy Who Was Throwing It Up In My Face Online, Lied In The Divorce Papers, Became A Witch and Now She Stalks Me Online Now. During the Relationship She Beat On Me, Called Me Niggers and Cheated Heavily. Shes The WORST Person I Ever Met. I Tell People Her & Our Daughter Died In A Car Crash... Cuz, Well... Shes Dead To Me. It's Her Ghost That Haunts Me Stalking. I dont know what her deal Is But I have GREAT Sympathy For Anyone Put Thru A Divorce.
If a human mother went to the electric chair in place of her son, you think that son would not be a changed man after that? You think he would just go out and continue to commit crimes? That's outrageous.
Also, it doesn't matter what the mother's motive is, it would still be just as stupid and unjust.
Piper also claims that God can get more glory by taking away our glory, which in practice means that hurting us makes him look good. Obscene...
If you have Children, and if, your child commited the worst mistake at any given point in his or her life? Would you torture your child to eternity?
Now, I understand Sinners should be punished. But why tortured to eternity that too in hell which is unbearable?
Why is that God just forbids them and cut them off from heaven? They too are God's creation and what makes it justifiable with a torture of life for their finite humanly / petty mistakes?
@13thChip Fair enough question, first let me say that God is not only a Father. He is an infinitely just God. As such, He must punish sin. In the book of Rev. 9:20-21; 16:9, 11 it states that people will not repent of their sins. Just as "some" murderer refuse to repent when they're in jail. The difference between an earthly judge and the Divine judge of the universe, is this; No creature is hidden from Him, but all things are naked and exposed to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.
@13thChip The point is that people who will go to hell, are never going to repent. "people were burned by the intense heat. So they blasphemed the name of God who had the power over these plagues, and they did not repent and give Him glory." Rev. 16:9
Now, what if a man murders a child and goes to jail. But, what if when he goes up for parole he says he is not sorry for what he did and he slanders the judge who sentenced him?
Would it be just to let this man go? I think not.
@13thChip God knows our hearts, we r exposed in His eyes. If we can understand this concept, we can understand why God would punish some1 for an eternity. Because they're hearts will be eternally hardened, as an infinitely just God. He must continue to punish sin for an infinite amount of time. It would simply b unjust to forgive those whose hearts remain hardened and unrepentant.
I thank God for providing a substitution for all who believe. My punishment has been nailed to the cross, praise God
@13thChip Sorry for the delay, 13th chip. "Why create sin?" Here's why; If God had not created freedom of the will, our love towards Him would be mechanical. We would be nothing less than robots, responding to the arbitrary commands of our Master. Sin, has to be here in order for us to make a free choice, either we worship Him or not. I pray that God would draw even you, to Himself, I pray that you, like I, would come to a place of repentance, and give God the glory.
Nothing more sad than watching adults try to rationalize their delusional beliefs they hold because of fear and indoctrination....
So, god had to sacrifice himself to himself to give himself glory? Does this make more sense when you are brainwashed to believe it? Why cant he just get on with life like any normal person and simply forgive others? Why are there so many Christians in prison if they have the holy spirit?
@tempemonkey2323 Hi there! tempemonkey2323, cool nick name. I'd like to focus on your 3rd question if you don't mind. In answering this question, I'd go back to what I said previously to @13thChip. I can see why you would say, "Why cant he just get on with life like any normal person and simply forgive others?" In order for God-like humans-to forgive others and get on with it. The person who offended Him, must want the forgiveness of the Him whom he violated.
@neodisciple When someone offends us, this is how we deal with it. Our forgiveness for others can only come into effect when the one who offended us asks for our forgiveness. When God asks us to love, and pray for our enemies. He is not asking us anything He has not already done. For, according to the Bible, God is waiting for people to repent, and notice how God comes into His creation to offer them forgiveness while they were rebellious. He did not wait for humans to reform on their own...
Then in Matthew God cameto us as a man so he could be with us and have an intimate relationship with us. To teach us and eventually become the utmost perfect sacrifice for our sins so we may have the opportunity to be saved. Jesus knew no sin. Then on the day of his death he took stripes so we may be healed. He took on all the sin of the world for all time so we need not shed blood anymore. And so we may still have a relationship with Him if we choose so.
Humanistheheart, you need to read the old testament. God gave man so many chances to redeem themselves. So many I couldn't even count. In the Book of Malachi is were God said enough is enough. For man became too prideful, they were sloppy/careless with the sacrifiice. They showed no effort to change. For 400 years God stopped talking to man completely. He did not even send prophets.
@jmhjmh5 which makes no sence. You think this god sets the rules to llve by, creates humans knowing they will break said rules, and decides that they should be tortured for all eternity for it if not forgiven. So instead of just letting it go, he incarnates himself in human form and get's himself killed. Somehow being killed as a human makes this god capable of forgiveness? What part of that is supposed to make sence?
one more thing Jesus in God in flesh meaning all God and all Man. He is the SOn of God and the Son of Man. Jesus took on everyone's sin for all time! SIn separates man from GOD. Of course Jesus would say Why hast thou forsaken me?.
one more thing Jesus in God in flesh meaning all God and all Man. He is the SOn of God and the Son of Man. Jesus took on everyone's sin for all time! SIn separates man from GOD. Of course Jesus would say Why hast thou forsaken me?.
First of all: 2 Timothy 3:15-17 (King James Version) 15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
this John Piper guy seems a bit too psycho in his beliefs already, this really reinforces the notion that very religious christians are going nutty in their heads already..
Why are You so far from helping Me, and from the words of My groaning." Psalm 22:1
Read the above Psalm in its entirety then the crucifixion accounts again. I think it will shed a great deal of light on the meaning of Jesus' words on the cross.
How many people do you know that love you enough to die for you? All you have to do is ask Jesus to show you that he is real...and relax and stop being so angry.....
Don't preach to me until you have read your bible from front to back, read it in it's entirety! Once you've done that (if your Jesus hasn't returned by then)then feel free to preach to me and we'll debate! Good day. : )
On the cross God forsook His son because the cup of God's wrath was poured out on to the son. The eternal bonds of Father and Sonship were rendered on that cross as Jesus experience Hell to atone for the sins of mankind.
If you can imagine an eternal being who has always existed in perfect unity with the Father, suddenly undergoing torturous seperation from that unity, then you get an idea for why He cried out to God on the cross... followed by "It is finished!"
The best you can do is copy and paste or ATTEMPT to cut people down? PRETTY LAME! Maybe you should attend college so you can learn critical thinking skills.
mate, i am not the one having a go at people for not reading the Bible and then criticising someone else for writing two tiny well-written and concise paragraphs that explain the doctrine of atonement. There's nothing wrong gramatically with what i wrote so your 'critical thinking' (that only lasts for 2 sentences apparently) does not really hold up to any sort of rational scrutiny. Nor is your basis for accusing me of 'not critical thinking' well founded. Please think before you type.
I'd like to engage you in a conversation about these things (yes i've read the entire bible, and am reading it again)...only if you'd be open to discuss these things though. Grace and Peace
You only(have faith)THINK Jesus died for you! Fact is the Jews don't thinks so, Muslims say nope he didn't die for you, the Buddist say nope, the Hindus say nope, etc, etc, etc! MEN wrote the bible not god(don't you understand this?)I personally don't trust men with an agenda to tell the truth and there was a lot of roman catholics authorities with agendas who determined what the bible would say!
It would seem to be rational to believe that unlike other religions, Christianity's Bible is God centered instead of man centered. If someone were trying to make a religion that a lot of people would follow, wouldn't you think they would make it something attainable by humans? Whereas, Christianity says you are not good enough. Not good period.
Really? So, the torah(sp) is man centered? The Koran is man centered? Hmm... not what I have been told!! How many bibles of other religions have you read?? I bet none!
By the way, I FIND IS VERY INTERESTING that YOU DIDN'T ANSWER MY QUESTION FROM BEFORE!! HAVE YOU READ THE ENTIRE BIBLE YET? And before you answer, DON'T think about lying!!
for what? why the need for death? if you did me wrong please dont kill anything, just tell me you are sorry and we are cool.
would you set this system up this way? does this not sound like the thoughts of man. look at the end of the book, god solves his problems the same way we do ours, by going to war. and a system of reward and punishment is designed for children. lets evolve.
This makes zero sense
semperveritatem 1 month ago
Romans clearly tells us that there are two Adams, both representing mankind. The first Adam brought sin into the world and through the first Adam all are sinners. The second Adam, Christ, came to undo the works of the first Adam. The law had been given to condemn mankind in sin. Then the perfect man, Christ, second Adam, dies for mankind and rises to give man newness of life. It is a matter of changing identities. Are you now in the first Adam or the second Adam?
pegcage 3 months ago
@pegcage Do you mean by 'through the first Adam all are sinners' to mean that we sinned in Adam, and are thus all personally born guilty of 'original sin'? All of the ante-Nicene Church fathers never knew about this doctrine because it was invented by (St) Augustine in the 5th century. Augustine's Latin Vulgate translation by St Jerome of Romans 5:12 was faulty and Augustine couldn't read any Greek to see that St Jerome had misinterpreted the ambiguity in the original text.
StJames37 2 months ago
@pegcage The Vulgate says in verse 12, '...in quo omnes peccaverunt' (in whom all have sinned). However, the original Greek ought to read '...because all have sinned'. Most modern translations translate the verse this way. The KJV says '...for that all have sinned'. In any case, this verse would support a view of 'ancestral sin', where all were/are fallen - but, nevertheless, no one is personally guilty of 'Adam's sin'.
StJames37 2 months ago
@pegcage (St) Augustine departed from all other Church fathers in teaching that all of humanity is personally guilty of 'original sin'. Catholicism and most of Protestantism (and especially Calvinism) make a major issue of each person born into this world, being guilty. Eastern Orthodoxy doesn't see 'the fall' in this legal way. We are born fallen - but not guilty.
StJames37 2 months ago
While in the grave, Christ descended into Hades (the realm of the dead/death itself) and utterly took it captive by filling it with his divinity!!! This is how we are both saved and being saved. The scriptures say that God was reconciling the world to himself - not that he was being reconciled to the world!
StJames37 3 months ago
medieval Catholic and Reformation theories of the atonement. The early Christians and Church Fathers taught that Christ came to bring us life through the Incarnation. He became man so that we could become deified. Also, Christ came to decisively defeat Satan, evil, and Hades (i.e. death itself). His love for humankind is so incomprehensible that when Satan and the powers of evil put him to death, he took utterly took them captive! Being God and Life itself, death could not hold him.
StJames37 3 months ago
This view called 'Penal Substitution' is the invention of Calvin in the 16th century. He was a lawyer and that's partly why the theory is so 'legalistic'. Calvin and the other Reformers built on the novel medieval Roman Catholic 'Satisfaction' theory invented by Anselm, who was an Archbishop of Canterbury in the 11th century. Before Anselm - for over 1000 years - there is no reference to these ideas anywhere in Christan theology! This fact alone should make every Christian suspicious of both
StJames37 3 months ago
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My Wife Left Me, Commited Adultery With Some Guy Who Was Throwing It Up In My Face Online, Lied In The Divorce Papers, Became A Witch and Now She Stalks Me Online Now. During the Relationship She Beat On Me, Called Me Niggers and Cheated Heavily. Shes The WORST Person I Ever Met. I Tell People Her & Our Daughter Died In A Car Crash... Cuz, Well... Shes Dead To Me. It's Her Ghost That Haunts Me Stalking. I dont know what her deal Is But I have GREAT Sympathy For Anyone Put Thru A Divorce.
KyngMegz 5 months ago
Wow, we have the power to increase or belittle the glory of God? Doesn't sound like he's very omnipotent?
TheConcolor 8 months ago
If a human mother went to the electric chair in place of her son, you think that son would not be a changed man after that? You think he would just go out and continue to commit crimes? That's outrageous.
Also, it doesn't matter what the mother's motive is, it would still be just as stupid and unjust.
Piper also claims that God can get more glory by taking away our glory, which in practice means that hurting us makes him look good. Obscene...
RupertVonSchnauzer 8 months ago
@branblackmon : You having read that, what is your best explanation?
13thChip 1 year ago
can someone answer my question?
If you have Children, and if, your child commited the worst mistake at any given point in his or her life? Would you torture your child to eternity?
Now, I understand Sinners should be punished. But why tortured to eternity that too in hell which is unbearable?
Why is that God just forbids them and cut them off from heaven? They too are God's creation and what makes it justifiable with a torture of life for their finite humanly / petty mistakes?
13thChip 1 year ago
@13thChip Fair enough question, first let me say that God is not only a Father. He is an infinitely just God. As such, He must punish sin. In the book of Rev. 9:20-21; 16:9, 11 it states that people will not repent of their sins. Just as "some" murderer refuse to repent when they're in jail. The difference between an earthly judge and the Divine judge of the universe, is this; No creature is hidden from Him, but all things are naked and exposed to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.
neodisciple 5 months ago
@13thChip The point is that people who will go to hell, are never going to repent. "people were burned by the intense heat. So they blasphemed the name of God who had the power over these plagues, and they did not repent and give Him glory." Rev. 16:9
Now, what if a man murders a child and goes to jail. But, what if when he goes up for parole he says he is not sorry for what he did and he slanders the judge who sentenced him?
Would it be just to let this man go? I think not.
neodisciple 5 months ago
@13thChip God knows our hearts, we r exposed in His eyes. If we can understand this concept, we can understand why God would punish some1 for an eternity. Because they're hearts will be eternally hardened, as an infinitely just God. He must continue to punish sin for an infinite amount of time. It would simply b unjust to forgive those whose hearts remain hardened and unrepentant.
I thank God for providing a substitution for all who believe. My punishment has been nailed to the cross, praise God
neodisciple 5 months ago
@neodisciple I see sin as a defect or bug. Why created SIN?
13thChip 5 months ago
@13thChip Sorry for the delay, 13th chip. "Why create sin?" Here's why; If God had not created freedom of the will, our love towards Him would be mechanical. We would be nothing less than robots, responding to the arbitrary commands of our Master. Sin, has to be here in order for us to make a free choice, either we worship Him or not. I pray that God would draw even you, to Himself, I pray that you, like I, would come to a place of repentance, and give God the glory.
Much love in Christ's name
neodisciple 1 month ago
Tis is a great and encouraging message! The Lord conquered sin and death!
kvash3154 1 year ago
Nothing more sad than watching adults try to rationalize their delusional beliefs they hold because of fear and indoctrination....
So, god had to sacrifice himself to himself to give himself glory? Does this make more sense when you are brainwashed to believe it? Why cant he just get on with life like any normal person and simply forgive others? Why are there so many Christians in prison if they have the holy spirit?
tempemonkey2323 1 year ago
@tempemonkey2323 Hi there! tempemonkey2323, cool nick name. I'd like to focus on your 3rd question if you don't mind. In answering this question, I'd go back to what I said previously to @13thChip. I can see why you would say, "Why cant he just get on with life like any normal person and simply forgive others?" In order for God-like humans-to forgive others and get on with it. The person who offended Him, must want the forgiveness of the Him whom he violated.
neodisciple 1 month ago
@neodisciple When someone offends us, this is how we deal with it. Our forgiveness for others can only come into effect when the one who offended us asks for our forgiveness. When God asks us to love, and pray for our enemies. He is not asking us anything He has not already done. For, according to the Bible, God is waiting for people to repent, and notice how God comes into His creation to offer them forgiveness while they were rebellious. He did not wait for humans to reform on their own...
neodisciple 1 month ago
Then in Matthew God cameto us as a man so he could be with us and have an intimate relationship with us. To teach us and eventually become the utmost perfect sacrifice for our sins so we may have the opportunity to be saved. Jesus knew no sin. Then on the day of his death he took stripes so we may be healed. He took on all the sin of the world for all time so we need not shed blood anymore. And so we may still have a relationship with Him if we choose so.
jabyss1992 1 year ago
Humanistheheart, you need to read the old testament. God gave man so many chances to redeem themselves. So many I couldn't even count. In the Book of Malachi is were God said enough is enough. For man became too prideful, they were sloppy/careless with the sacrifiice. They showed no effort to change. For 400 years God stopped talking to man completely. He did not even send prophets.
jabyss1992 1 year ago
What makes no sense?
jabyss1992 1 year ago
@jmhjmh5 which makes no sence. You think this god sets the rules to llve by, creates humans knowing they will break said rules, and decides that they should be tortured for all eternity for it if not forgiven. So instead of just letting it go, he incarnates himself in human form and get's himself killed. Somehow being killed as a human makes this god capable of forgiveness? What part of that is supposed to make sence?
humanistheart 1 year ago
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one more thing Jesus in God in flesh meaning all God and all Man. He is the SOn of God and the Son of Man. Jesus took on everyone's sin for all time! SIn separates man from GOD. Of course Jesus would say Why hast thou forsaken me?.
jabyss1992 1 year ago
one more thing Jesus in God in flesh meaning all God and all Man. He is the SOn of God and the Son of Man. Jesus took on everyone's sin for all time! SIn separates man from GOD. Of course Jesus would say Why hast thou forsaken me?.
jabyss1992 1 year ago
@jabyss1992 No, that makes no sence what so ever.
humanistheart 1 year ago
Comment removed
jabyss1992 1 year ago
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This man is WRONG
jabyss1992 1 year ago
2nd: Genesis 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
John 1:1-2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
jabyss1992 1 year ago
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jabyss1992 1 year ago
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jabyss1992 1 year ago
Alright listen guys.
First of all: 2 Timothy 3:15-17 (King James Version) 15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
jabyss1992 1 year ago
ummm..
this John Piper guy seems a bit too psycho in his beliefs already, this really reinforces the notion that very religious christians are going nutty in their heads already..
uuduu7 2 years ago
@uuduu7 You said it. But even the not so very religious christians aren't all there.
humanistheart 1 year ago
"My God, My God why have you forsaken Me?
Why are You so far from helping Me, and from the words of My groaning." Psalm 22:1
Read the above Psalm in its entirety then the crucifixion accounts again. I think it will shed a great deal of light on the meaning of Jesus' words on the cross.
rottedcorps 2 years ago
When the hour came Jesus said, "why has thou FORSAKEN me????" God's response? NOT A FREAKING THING-he let Jesus DIE!
99minerkc 2 years ago
How many people do you know that love you enough to die for you? All you have to do is ask Jesus to show you that he is real...and relax and stop being so angry.....
pinkglosses 2 years ago
Don't preach to me until you have read your bible from front to back, read it in it's entirety! Once you've done that (if your Jesus hasn't returned by then)then feel free to preach to me and we'll debate! Good day. : )
99minerkc 2 years ago
On the cross God forsook His son because the cup of God's wrath was poured out on to the son. The eternal bonds of Father and Sonship were rendered on that cross as Jesus experience Hell to atone for the sins of mankind.
If you can imagine an eternal being who has always existed in perfect unity with the Father, suddenly undergoing torturous seperation from that unity, then you get an idea for why He cried out to God on the cross... followed by "It is finished!"
Revinius 2 years ago
What are you rambling about? Please shorten to one or two sentences so I can read it!
99minerkc 2 years ago
get an attention span nubcakes. How are you going to read the Bible if you can't read two tiny paragraphs?
Revinius 2 years ago
The best you can do is copy and paste or ATTEMPT to cut people down? PRETTY LAME! Maybe you should attend college so you can learn critical thinking skills.
99minerkc 2 years ago
mate, i am not the one having a go at people for not reading the Bible and then criticising someone else for writing two tiny well-written and concise paragraphs that explain the doctrine of atonement. There's nothing wrong gramatically with what i wrote so your 'critical thinking' (that only lasts for 2 sentences apparently) does not really hold up to any sort of rational scrutiny. Nor is your basis for accusing me of 'not critical thinking' well founded. Please think before you type.
Revinius 2 years ago
I'd like to engage you in a conversation about these things (yes i've read the entire bible, and am reading it again)...only if you'd be open to discuss these things though. Grace and Peace
christologist 2 years ago
Comment removed
Revinius 2 years ago
You only(have faith)THINK Jesus died for you! Fact is the Jews don't thinks so, Muslims say nope he didn't die for you, the Buddist say nope, the Hindus say nope, etc, etc, etc! MEN wrote the bible not god(don't you understand this?)I personally don't trust men with an agenda to tell the truth and there was a lot of roman catholics authorities with agendas who determined what the bible would say!
99minerkc 2 years ago
If men wrote the Bible, why isn't it man centered?
flagged18 2 years ago
Who do you think wrote the bible? After you answer that question. I'll be happy to answer yours. : )
99minerkc 2 years ago
It would seem to be rational to believe that unlike other religions, Christianity's Bible is God centered instead of man centered. If someone were trying to make a religion that a lot of people would follow, wouldn't you think they would make it something attainable by humans? Whereas, Christianity says you are not good enough. Not good period.
flagged18 2 years ago
Really? So, the torah(sp) is man centered? The Koran is man centered? Hmm... not what I have been told!! How many bibles of other religions have you read?? I bet none!
99minerkc 2 years ago
By the way, I FIND IS VERY INTERESTING that YOU DIDN'T ANSWER MY QUESTION FROM BEFORE!! HAVE YOU READ THE ENTIRE BIBLE YET? And before you answer, DON'T think about lying!!
99minerkc 2 years ago
Because it was dictated to them by God!
Drtruman 2 years ago
punishing himself to himself to create a loophole around a law he created.
mkrulic517439 2 years ago
When you see one day how sinful you are you will see.......how many people do you know that love you enough to die for you?
pinkglosses 2 years ago
for what? why the need for death? if you did me wrong please dont kill anything, just tell me you are sorry and we are cool.
would you set this system up this way? does this not sound like the thoughts of man. look at the end of the book, god solves his problems the same way we do ours, by going to war. and a system of reward and punishment is designed for children. lets evolve.
mkrulic517439 2 years ago
yeh great response to a question i guess lots have wondered at some point
Scottles293 2 years ago
What about the concept of Federal Headship in this?
dvddttmr 2 years ago
Now THAT is a magnificent response.
wheresmylife 2 years ago 8
@wheresmylife He definitely nailed it
UnrealHelix 1 year ago