wow, that zappa didn't look so tough in the first round... such a fight!! but he couldn't beat shonen... can someone beat shonen? man, he is not human... HAIL SHONEN!!!
Zappa has 3 loops that i know of, his dog 5d loop for one thing, which he used to win the 2nd round. He also has his Raou fireball otg loop, and his DP loop (which happens to be the strongest loop in the game, can do over 80% life)
Very old argument and very old video, but i just wanted to point that out =|
i hate badlands loop because thats how shonen beat abe in this match. abe is so awesome, using a hard character, and fuckin shonen just loops him to death cuz he doesn't wanna lose.
I love how all scrubs do is complain about whatever looks "cheap" instead of actually taking something from the vid. Newsflash, it's not 2007 and no one cares if you think badlands loop is the only thing making test good. Please keep your scrubby comments out of good vids.
there are a many worse loops than Testaments badland, I will say that much. We can all agree to that. (Eddie) But what else is Shonen to do? Lose? They fight to win and do whatever it takes from poking him to death to loops and what not.
LOL at all the qq over Testament's badlands loop, as if there aren't numerous other examples of broken shit like that in this game. Like Eddie's retarded little Eddie pressure and comboes (and unblockables), Slayer's stupidly easy 50+% BBU and DOT comboes, Potemkin's f+HS or reflector into slidehead and Pot Buster FRC...the list goes on and on. Stop crying just because Testament's bullshit 50% combo is a little easier that most of the other characters'.
You just listed pretty much the major stupid crap in the game. There's a few others, such as characters with slower projectiles dashing to the other side of an enemy and hoping they guard in the wrong direction, but that's about it. That's only about 6 things, and if they weren't used then the game would be about ten times more enjoyable in a tournament scenario.
Blame is shared equally. The game devs get half the blame for putting them in, whether it be intentional or oversight, and the players get half the blame for using it all. Nearly every multiplayer game is broken in some way, regardless of genre. You can't shirk responsibility by saying "its the devs' fault im overpowered not mine lol."
Um, "responsibility" in playing a video game? Are you serious? "It's the devs' fault I'm overpowered" is a perfectly valid thing to say, because guess what? It IS the devs' fault that you're op. Not using all of the tools available to you because of some moral superiority, "I'm above using broken stuff" complex is just plain silly.
So basically what you're saying is that, if the devs make a mistake and put in something overpowered... Which WILL happen because, I don't know if you've ever been part of game design but balance is one of the hardest things of the entire fucking job... Then instead of doing the SMART thing, that is, ignoring it and not using it so that the game IS balanced, shunning people who use it, and overall using what they find FUN so that the game IS fun...
Players can't be held responsible for a game being unbalanced. If All I need to do is the badlands loop and I win (not the case by the way, guilty gear is has one of the healthiest metagames of all 2D fighters), then the game isn't balanced.
If the game is shallow, than the developer is the one that screwed up. End of discussion.
I will concede that everyone in the game having a loop is rather boring, but that's a different issue than balance altogether.
For uh, I don't know, a small thing known as winning? Because, you know...some of us might find winning FUN? As opposed to losing with a snobby, holier than thou, "I'm having more FUN than you because I'm playing harder to use characters" attitude?
Ignoring the overpowered stuff does not "make the game balanced," nor does ignoring people who use those things somehow mean that those people are not having fun. If you can't comprehend those things, then your comment about my idiocy is certainly rich.
Enjoy never being able to compete against elite competition because you're held back by something as moronic as "if I don't like something about a game, I'm going to ignore it and only play with people who ignore it too."
I can understand that people find winning fun. Most people do. I doubt you'd enter a tournament if you didn't find some joy in winning.
Personally I get about fifty times more enjoyment from COMPETITION than WINNING. And with crap like abusing Eddie, your OWN abilities aren't put to the test, only that of your opponent.
It's not like setting up unblockables with eddie is the easiest thing in the world to do. That requires precise timing and a certain mindset to activate all those negative edge triggers and positive edge triggers at the same time.
Elite competition? Yeah, I have trouble. But I also happen to be closing in on them. In April I beat a pressure-spamming Millia player who won the tourney this month. Kaqn beat idiots with Order Sol, so can I.
Also, if I was using a complex character, I'd be using Venom or Robo Ky. I use Order Sol, who's not only mid-high tier, he's also possibly the easiest character in the game to use. (He also happens to be the most pure reflex based which is why I like him.)
Ky is easier than OS. I agree. But OS is still easy. No other character can chew off 60% damage with a combo that takes 3 seconds to learn (At least, not without 100% Tension). Guilty Gear isn't BROKEN, but it does have its unbalanced bits. No game will ever be 'perfectly balanced,' such a thing doesn't exist. Thus there is some responsibility on players. Even things like dashing to the other side of a character just as a projectile hits (I forget the Jap term) is an exploit of the guard (cont)
system being back rather than a button. Something like that will never be fixed in a standard 2D fighter. Plus it comes down to whether you consider it in need of fixing.
I understand the concept of trolling/griefing. I just didn't expect it to show its face in an environment like a 2D fighter before getting into tourneys.
And just because the unblockable setup takes skill to master, after that it's just running off buttons. It has nothing to do with having more skill than your opponent.
Also, since my (cont) part seemed to somehow die...
What you (shinkada) Said about eddie's unblockable can be said about every combo ever, of all time. Every loop, every combo, every FRC is all just 'running buttons'. Are you really suggesting that FRCs take no skill?
But you can't make it the responsibility of the player to balance the game. That puts the player in a situation where instead of just playing the game, now the player is a beta tester.
Dashing with projectile cover isn't an exploit. That's been done in Guilty gear since GGX, and it it isn't even really an exploit to start with. The opponent is busy blocking the projectile, which let's you come in to start pressure. This would still be possible if there were a block button (cont)
With projectiles I mean dashing overhead AS THEY HIT in an effort to get the player to guard in the wrong direction. Dizzy is the classic example for this. It doesn't have anything to do with skill or tactics since not even the Dizzy player knows which direction it's going to hit from, just hoping that the opponent messes up.
Until devs started putting more emphasis on testing, which they won't, I DO believe players have responsibility, in competetive games, to not abuse broken abilities.
That situation with dizzy sounds like a cross-up, something else that requires setup, which requires skill.
Moreover, players are not beta testers. If an ability in a fighting game is broken, then you just have a broken game, and the game isn't as deep as you thought. You should just move on to a fighting game that isn't broken. Also, while banning such abilities is easy for casual play, these bannings don't really have a place in a tournament atmosphere.
Chewing off that damage with OS requires charge, the character's gimmick. Additionally, Order Sol has some of the worst range in the entire game, possessing a SINGLE move that can be classed as a poke, and it's a force break, no projectiles, and not even that good melee range. Even if I were to ignore the area control that traps give Testament, being able to do 50% damage without traps would be like Order Sol doing 50% without Charge, or Venom 50% without pool balls, or Bridget 50% without yoyo.
Order sol's HS is a great poke if you cancel it with his manual charge. Rock it (QCF + S) also has pretty good range, but it's usability depends on the matchup (I dare you to use it on May. It's bad.) Not to mention, Order sol doesn't really need pokes, he's too busy being invunerable to care about poking.
Also, I'm not even sure how Testament could DO 50% off of a trap, since all his traps prorate. If you used his super traps maybe?
His HS has a very odd hitbox. It's good (great) as an anti-air poke but not anti-ground. Rock It can be decent but as far as I remember can't be combo'd. Even on counter hit its combo options are pretty poor. And yeah, I fought a May player for the first time recently, even though they were a complete nublet they beat me in two rounds. It was terrible. (Then I realized Gunblaze = Win.)
I lol'd at the invincible thing. WHAT invincible? Two moves with upper-body invulnerability. That's it.
erm... Aside from the obvious 6P, gunblaze, and dragon punch, OS's 6K is throw invunerable, and his Forcebreak, bandit revolver, and 2HS are Low invuerable.
His sweep also has a 'low stance' which isn'technically invunerable but it still beats out a bunch of moves.
His 214+D -> HS also has invunerability, but it's so bad no one really cares...
6P and 6K sure. Gunblaze, I'm not sure if it has any invuln, it's just fast. I'm sure I've been hit with high attacks in that before. Stormviper, okay, I forgot that one. Bandit Revolver I'm pretty sure has no invul but just likes to jump over things, and 2HS I had/have no idea about. 2D, fair enough.
And I quite like his Charge Burst, thanks. Makes for fun mindgames.
Yeah, I guess he does have a DECENT amount of invul, but not a HUGE amount. He's no Anji or May.
And yeah, I know Testament probably couldn't do that kind of damage off a trap, which just makes it even MORE stupid. Can you imagine Venom doing more damage without his pool balls than with?
Testy Best combo starters are traps. If to made his traps get more involved in his big damage, you'd get a character like johnny from GGX2, where after 1 or 2 traps + aircombo, you'd die.
Considering Testy's already the best in the game at making sure you're in lockdown, trading the badlands loop for traps that don't prorate fixes nothing. Makes the game LOOK more balanced, but testy would still be god tier, and no matchups would change.
I didn't say remove the loop in exchange for removing trap prorates. Look at Shonen playing in Slash. Testament was fine back then balance wise. Did a good amount of damage, and took actual skill to initiate his combos. You'd need to know exactly where you put your traps and plan accordingly. Now Shonen just puts them anywhere because they don't matter for his best combos, he just spams them for pressure. How many times has a net hit someone way in mid air and done nothing?
Testy's best combos pre-loop usually involved using nets to link combos on the ground, or having ones pre-set in the air to catch enemies after the end of your combo. Good Testaments could add about 20% more damage by doing this. Shonen himself used to do it. As well, his trees were his best combo initiators, by FAR. Now they're still a good initiator, but not the best by miles like they once were.
Having traps pre set was good, but testy players usually just went to the gravedigger loop before accent core for 'real' damage.
I actually liked the GD loop better, since it did good damage (150-200+) and kept them in the corner with a knockdown, unlike the bl loop, which is just bad tactically speaking.
GD >>> BL
I couldn't even stand playing testament after GD became a forcebreak. Really.
lmao shit that last round looked amazing. i was never able to utilize testys counter frc. by the way the vid, as every other one, is playing pretty fast whats the deal?
for God sakes would you stop bitching about the Badland loop. in the end it's just a combo and nothing more. you do realize that the other high tier characters lilke eddie, slayer, jam, and potemkin all do higher damage than testament per combo in general? you're letting what the combo looks like distract you from the fact that the damage is nothing out of the ordinary.
Zappa's only loop is when he has Raoul out, and unless you're very good at guarding, if Raoul's out you're fucked anyway. Sol's had a loop since the beginning of time, and Ky's loop is rubbish weak. The reason I hate Testament's loop is because it's stupid, and you see players like Shonen going around who have no idea how to use traps, using a trap character, purely because he has a loop.
yeah I mean, it's not like shounen's been playing Testament since XX when he was one of the lowest tier characters....oh wait a minute he WAS using Testament in GGXX and every game after.
And he hasn't gotten anything higher than a cult following pre-AC because he didn't have his loop. He got a BIT of recognition in Slash due to the Forward Exe Beast, but that's it. It's only since the Badlands Loop has Shonen gone from 'one of the people Testament players know about' to 'omfg he wins vs every1 hes so kewl'.
LOL Raou loop only lasts 3 reps against most characters, hardly a loop really, more of an extended combo. Even Sol's Sidewinder loop can go 10 times if the players good. And Ky... I can't in good conscious, call that a loop. That's just silly.
My point exactly. The only characters who SHOULD have loops are either:
-Characters who're gunna fuck you up anyway, or
-Characters who don't HAVE good combos other than the loops.
The main examples of 1 are ABA and Zappa with Raoul. Main example of 2 is Sol. And the only example I can really think of. All other characters like Slayer, May, Jam and Testament just shouldn't have them. They're boring, and usually take less skill than the characters' REAL combos.
Loops can be annoying at times, and I'll admit that Jam's loop is easy as hell to do, but really, Slayer and especially Testament are another story. If Testament loops were so easy to pull off, then why is Shonen so distinguished? How about you master the Badlands loop and go dethrone him yourself, if you want to prove a point. Shonen has worked his ass off to get where he is now.
This was a great match, Abe is a very skillful Zappa and did what he could to put up a fight, all bickering aside
I don't know why others don't try. Maybe they don't want to be an immitator. Maybe they don't like loops, either. Slayer, yeah, you need some insane positioning to get the timing right. I still don't like it, but it is hard to do. Badlands Loop? You can do it off nearly every move Testament has. It takes a bit of practice to get the timing of the loop down itself, but once you do, you can turn almost any random hit into a 50%+ damage combo. =/ It's broken to hell.
Dude are you at it again? Every damn testament player uses the badlands loop. It would be retarded for the player NOT to use the loop. Shonen is the best Testament player, he has definitely mastered how to use traps. You don't know what you're talking about.
The only thing the retard's learnt how to use is random hits to do half your health. Gtfo, I'm sick of arguing with you fuckwits. It would be retarded not to use it, if you're a desperate fuckwit who hasn't been laid in 10 years and thus can't imagine not abusing every bullshit trick in the book just to win a fucking game instead of having fucking fun.
To quote Machinae Supremacy: "Do you always play only to win?"
Haha if you're getting sick of it, drop the provocative comments and the witty behaviour. I see you all over the place bitching over this and that, just enjoy the damn game and stop picking fights.
Do you even watch Shonen's Matches? It's not like all he does is Badlands loop -> Win.
He barely even uses the thing much, because he usually has better options (Guarunteed corner knockdown, curse, etc.)
Try to wrap your brain around the concept that some people get plenty of fun from using the badlands loop. Especially if they see someone like you pissed at them for doing said loop.
Hey Shinkada, you're a fucking scrub. Stop whining like a little pussy and talking about "play for fun" and go play some fucking Let's tap or something... that kind of game is geared towards scrubs like you. Keep the fighting games for people who know what competition means.
No, I don't condone steroid use. Steroids are the equivalent of hacking and I don't condone hacking. I condone taking advantage of the options presented to you within the legal context of the game's rules.
In baseball, players have the option, at bat, to stand at either side of the plate... they stand on the side that's more comfortable for them... they wouldn't stand on the other side because their team would have less of a chance to win.
That logic is flawed. The rule-makers of sports leagues made a rule against steroid use, thus they're not allowed. The developers set the rules within the game's universe by allowing certain mechanics to be available to the player.
Hacks are not something the devs allow within the typical rules of the game, just as steroids are not something the rule-makers for the sport allow.
Actually in this analogy the rule-makers of sports leagues would be akin to the organizers of tournaments.
The devs are not Gods, though, so yes, this logic is flawed. They are only humans who can be wrong just like anyone else. Just because they put it in the game doesn't mean it's good. Refraining from loops to make the game more based on reflexes and strategy than tapping out pre-discovered button sequences DOES make it more fun, so I say do it.
No, the tournament organizers set up the rules that have to do with non-game-mechanic related things like prize money and eliminations...
In a less balanced game like Super Smash Bros Melee, they make other rules like disabling items and levels, but ultimately the gameplay remains unchanged.
Anyway, this argument is futile.... You posted your original comment a year ago. You were wrong then, and you're still wrong now. Everybody here seems to disagree with you, which is saying something.
I agree that it's saying something, but all's I'm reading is "I'd rather memorize buttons and play rock paper scissors with crossups, mixups and throw/unblockable setups than contemplate silly things like well-timed counters and unpredictable strategy."
See the problem is that all the people who think like me, don't play in tourneys, or watch tourney vids. I wouldn't either if any of my friends, who could be trusted not to be bullshit, actually played fighting games.
It's not a matter of memorizing buttons and playing rock paper scissors, because RPS is a game of luck. The fact is, you need an incredible amount of skill to be able to play the mixup game necessary to play on a high level. How exactly can you be against mixups? They're the entire game! High, Low, Overhead, and Mid attacks are the entire crux of the blocking/attacking game... it doesn't make sense to have a problem with those... they take reflexes and counters just like you want!
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
Personally I think the game would be a lot better if high/low guarding wasn't necessary. You're right, mixups are the entire game at high level play, which I think is bad. It's basically a brick wall between normal players and tourney players. If I use mixups against my friends they get demolished in seconds regardless of how good they are, because they don't play in tourneys. Plus if mixups weren't in the picture then perfect guarding and slashbacks would be way more critical.
That's not saying much. Barely anyone used Testament back then. They still don't. Shounen's pretty much the only 'professional-level' TE player. Testament has a lot of potential but very few people use his traps creatively so he doesn't get very far. NO Testament player was that recognized until Accent Core.
Face it. Shounen was small-talk before he gained the ability to kill half your health off of almost any attack he has.
I've read almost every comment that you've put down here, Shinkada, and the one thing that pisses me off the most is the fact that you want everyone to stop using moves that are listed as "unfair" in your book and want people to ignore them? I think its complete bullshit! I play as Zappa and Its like saying that I should ignore the chance to summon Raou because he's too overpowered.
Actually, a more accurate assessment would be if Zappa had a 50% combo that he could chain off the counterhits of even his most basic attacks, without any of his summons. Everyone would start using Zappa, and rather than Raou being a staple of his gameplay (regardless of whether he's actually summoned or just used as a threat to put people on edge) they'd simply fall back on that combo over and over.
wow, that zappa didn't look so tough in the first round... such a fight!! but he couldn't beat shonen... can someone beat shonen? man, he is not human... HAIL SHONEN!!!
666culorto666 10 months ago
HOLY BALLS HE WARDEN'D THE DEAD ANGLE. What are you supposed to do about that jesus.
VictoryThief 1 year ago
Zappa has 3 loops that i know of, his dog 5d loop for one thing, which he used to win the 2nd round. He also has his Raou fireball otg loop, and his DP loop (which happens to be the strongest loop in the game, can do over 80% life)
Very old argument and very old video, but i just wanted to point that out =|
Japhro77 2 years ago
The 2 round is crazy at the end!
@.@
powerrit 2 years ago
i hate badlands loop because thats how shonen beat abe in this match. abe is so awesome, using a hard character, and fuckin shonen just loops him to death cuz he doesn't wanna lose.
super133t 2 years ago
I love how all scrubs do is complain about whatever looks "cheap" instead of actually taking something from the vid. Newsflash, it's not 2007 and no one cares if you think badlands loop is the only thing making test good. Please keep your scrubby comments out of good vids.
klaige 2 years ago 2
I kinda have to put my two sense in this:
there are a many worse loops than Testaments badland, I will say that much. We can all agree to that. (Eddie) But what else is Shonen to do? Lose? They fight to win and do whatever it takes from poking him to death to loops and what not.
BlckToad 2 years ago
How pathetically one sided. You weren't really watching for the first few rounds were you?
blackhorse1988 2 years ago
I guess Abe should play a character that's less shitty and more Testament instead, then, huh? It's about winning or losing, no matter what.
DemonmachinE 2 years ago
I've never had enough interest in Zappa to train to properly use him.
TheftOfChocolate 3 years ago
why havent they made an attempt to make zappa so unreasonably difficult to use
eddie/slayer have been champs forever. at least they gave potemkin and venom stuff to work with in AC. spread the love with the whole cast, ArcSys
ninjachipzanuff 3 years ago
LOL at all the qq over Testament's badlands loop, as if there aren't numerous other examples of broken shit like that in this game. Like Eddie's retarded little Eddie pressure and comboes (and unblockables), Slayer's stupidly easy 50+% BBU and DOT comboes, Potemkin's f+HS or reflector into slidehead and Pot Buster FRC...the list goes on and on. Stop crying just because Testament's bullshit 50% combo is a little easier that most of the other characters'.
arindam43 3 years ago
You just listed pretty much the major stupid crap in the game. There's a few others, such as characters with slower projectiles dashing to the other side of an enemy and hoping they guard in the wrong direction, but that's about it. That's only about 6 things, and if they weren't used then the game would be about ten times more enjoyable in a tournament scenario.
Shinkada 3 years ago
Then blame the game devs for creating broken game mechanics, not players for fully using what's available to them.
arindam43 3 years ago
Blame is shared equally. The game devs get half the blame for putting them in, whether it be intentional or oversight, and the players get half the blame for using it all. Nearly every multiplayer game is broken in some way, regardless of genre. You can't shirk responsibility by saying "its the devs' fault im overpowered not mine lol."
Shinkada 3 years ago
Um, "responsibility" in playing a video game? Are you serious? "It's the devs' fault I'm overpowered" is a perfectly valid thing to say, because guess what? It IS the devs' fault that you're op. Not using all of the tools available to you because of some moral superiority, "I'm above using broken stuff" complex is just plain silly.
arindam43 3 years ago 5
So basically what you're saying is that, if the devs make a mistake and put in something overpowered... Which WILL happen because, I don't know if you've ever been part of game design but balance is one of the hardest things of the entire fucking job... Then instead of doing the SMART thing, that is, ignoring it and not using it so that the game IS balanced, shunning people who use it, and overall using what they find FUN so that the game IS fun...
Shinkada 3 years ago
Players can't be held responsible for a game being unbalanced. If All I need to do is the badlands loop and I win (not the case by the way, guilty gear is has one of the healthiest metagames of all 2D fighters), then the game isn't balanced.
If the game is shallow, than the developer is the one that screwed up. End of discussion.
I will concede that everyone in the game having a loop is rather boring, but that's a different issue than balance altogether.
Pandaman64 3 years ago
... They should abuse the oversight for... Um... What, again? I'm sorry, you're such an idiot that I'm just not following you here.
Shinkada 3 years ago
For uh, I don't know, a small thing known as winning? Because, you know...some of us might find winning FUN? As opposed to losing with a snobby, holier than thou, "I'm having more FUN than you because I'm playing harder to use characters" attitude?
arindam43 3 years ago
Ignoring the overpowered stuff does not "make the game balanced," nor does ignoring people who use those things somehow mean that those people are not having fun. If you can't comprehend those things, then your comment about my idiocy is certainly rich.
Enjoy never being able to compete against elite competition because you're held back by something as moronic as "if I don't like something about a game, I'm going to ignore it and only play with people who ignore it too."
arindam43 3 years ago
I can understand that people find winning fun. Most people do. I doubt you'd enter a tournament if you didn't find some joy in winning.
Personally I get about fifty times more enjoyment from COMPETITION than WINNING. And with crap like abusing Eddie, your OWN abilities aren't put to the test, only that of your opponent.
Shinkada 3 years ago
It's not like setting up unblockables with eddie is the easiest thing in the world to do. That requires precise timing and a certain mindset to activate all those negative edge triggers and positive edge triggers at the same time.
Pandaman64 3 years ago
Elite competition? Yeah, I have trouble. But I also happen to be closing in on them. In April I beat a pressure-spamming Millia player who won the tourney this month. Kaqn beat idiots with Order Sol, so can I.
Also, if I was using a complex character, I'd be using Venom or Robo Ky. I use Order Sol, who's not only mid-high tier, he's also possibly the easiest character in the game to use. (He also happens to be the most pure reflex based which is why I like him.)
Shinkada 3 years ago
While I agree that Order is really easy, May and Ky are easier. ESPECIALLY Ky.
Ky is basically Pressure -> Anything that hits -> BnB Air Combo. He's so simple it's laughable.
Pandaman64 3 years ago
Ky is easier than OS. I agree. But OS is still easy. No other character can chew off 60% damage with a combo that takes 3 seconds to learn (At least, not without 100% Tension). Guilty Gear isn't BROKEN, but it does have its unbalanced bits. No game will ever be 'perfectly balanced,' such a thing doesn't exist. Thus there is some responsibility on players. Even things like dashing to the other side of a character just as a projectile hits (I forget the Jap term) is an exploit of the guard (cont)
Shinkada 3 years ago
system being back rather than a button. Something like that will never be fixed in a standard 2D fighter. Plus it comes down to whether you consider it in need of fixing.
I understand the concept of trolling/griefing. I just didn't expect it to show its face in an environment like a 2D fighter before getting into tourneys.
And just because the unblockable setup takes skill to master, after that it's just running off buttons. It has nothing to do with having more skill than your opponent.
Shinkada 3 years ago
Also, since my (cont) part seemed to somehow die...
What you (shinkada) Said about eddie's unblockable can be said about every combo ever, of all time. Every loop, every combo, every FRC is all just 'running buttons'. Are you really suggesting that FRCs take no skill?
Pandaman64 3 years ago
But you can't make it the responsibility of the player to balance the game. That puts the player in a situation where instead of just playing the game, now the player is a beta tester.
Dashing with projectile cover isn't an exploit. That's been done in Guilty gear since GGX, and it it isn't even really an exploit to start with. The opponent is busy blocking the projectile, which let's you come in to start pressure. This would still be possible if there were a block button (cont)
Pandaman64 3 years ago
With projectiles I mean dashing overhead AS THEY HIT in an effort to get the player to guard in the wrong direction. Dizzy is the classic example for this. It doesn't have anything to do with skill or tactics since not even the Dizzy player knows which direction it's going to hit from, just hoping that the opponent messes up.
Until devs started putting more emphasis on testing, which they won't, I DO believe players have responsibility, in competetive games, to not abuse broken abilities.
Shinkada 3 years ago
That situation with dizzy sounds like a cross-up, something else that requires setup, which requires skill.
Moreover, players are not beta testers. If an ability in a fighting game is broken, then you just have a broken game, and the game isn't as deep as you thought. You should just move on to a fighting game that isn't broken. Also, while banning such abilities is easy for casual play, these bannings don't really have a place in a tournament atmosphere.
Pandaman64 3 years ago
OS chews off 60% damage with no tension, and you complain about testament getting 50% off of a counter hit?
Pandaman64 3 years ago
Chewing off that damage with OS requires charge, the character's gimmick. Additionally, Order Sol has some of the worst range in the entire game, possessing a SINGLE move that can be classed as a poke, and it's a force break, no projectiles, and not even that good melee range. Even if I were to ignore the area control that traps give Testament, being able to do 50% damage without traps would be like Order Sol doing 50% without Charge, or Venom 50% without pool balls, or Bridget 50% without yoyo.
Shinkada 3 years ago
Order sol's HS is a great poke if you cancel it with his manual charge. Rock it (QCF + S) also has pretty good range, but it's usability depends on the matchup (I dare you to use it on May. It's bad.) Not to mention, Order sol doesn't really need pokes, he's too busy being invunerable to care about poking.
Also, I'm not even sure how Testament could DO 50% off of a trap, since all his traps prorate. If you used his super traps maybe?
Pandaman64 3 years ago
His HS has a very odd hitbox. It's good (great) as an anti-air poke but not anti-ground. Rock It can be decent but as far as I remember can't be combo'd. Even on counter hit its combo options are pretty poor. And yeah, I fought a May player for the first time recently, even though they were a complete nublet they beat me in two rounds. It was terrible. (Then I realized Gunblaze = Win.)
I lol'd at the invincible thing. WHAT invincible? Two moves with upper-body invulnerability. That's it.
Shinkada 3 years ago
erm... Aside from the obvious 6P, gunblaze, and dragon punch, OS's 6K is throw invunerable, and his Forcebreak, bandit revolver, and 2HS are Low invuerable.
His sweep also has a 'low stance' which isn'technically invunerable but it still beats out a bunch of moves.
His 214+D -> HS also has invunerability, but it's so bad no one really cares...
Pandaman64 3 years ago
6P and 6K sure. Gunblaze, I'm not sure if it has any invuln, it's just fast. I'm sure I've been hit with high attacks in that before. Stormviper, okay, I forgot that one. Bandit Revolver I'm pretty sure has no invul but just likes to jump over things, and 2HS I had/have no idea about. 2D, fair enough.
And I quite like his Charge Burst, thanks. Makes for fun mindgames.
Yeah, I guess he does have a DECENT amount of invul, but not a HUGE amount. He's no Anji or May.
Shinkada 3 years ago
And yeah, I know Testament probably couldn't do that kind of damage off a trap, which just makes it even MORE stupid. Can you imagine Venom doing more damage without his pool balls than with?
Shinkada 3 years ago
Testy Best combo starters are traps. If to made his traps get more involved in his big damage, you'd get a character like johnny from GGX2, where after 1 or 2 traps + aircombo, you'd die.
Considering Testy's already the best in the game at making sure you're in lockdown, trading the badlands loop for traps that don't prorate fixes nothing. Makes the game LOOK more balanced, but testy would still be god tier, and no matchups would change.
Pandaman64 3 years ago 3
I didn't say remove the loop in exchange for removing trap prorates. Look at Shonen playing in Slash. Testament was fine back then balance wise. Did a good amount of damage, and took actual skill to initiate his combos. You'd need to know exactly where you put your traps and plan accordingly. Now Shonen just puts them anywhere because they don't matter for his best combos, he just spams them for pressure. How many times has a net hit someone way in mid air and done nothing?
Shinkada 3 years ago
Um...net's were never needed for combos. They were always used for zoning/control/wakeup games
Pandaman64 3 years ago
Testy's best combos pre-loop usually involved using nets to link combos on the ground, or having ones pre-set in the air to catch enemies after the end of your combo. Good Testaments could add about 20% more damage by doing this. Shonen himself used to do it. As well, his trees were his best combo initiators, by FAR. Now they're still a good initiator, but not the best by miles like they once were.
Shinkada 3 years ago
Having traps pre set was good, but testy players usually just went to the gravedigger loop before accent core for 'real' damage.
I actually liked the GD loop better, since it did good damage (150-200+) and kept them in the corner with a knockdown, unlike the bl loop, which is just bad tactically speaking.
GD >>> BL
I couldn't even stand playing testament after GD became a forcebreak. Really.
Pandaman64 3 years ago
lmao shit that last round looked amazing. i was never able to utilize testys counter frc. by the way the vid, as every other one, is playing pretty fast whats the deal?
ultrarockmanx 3 years ago
2:25-2:33
Zappa crazy pwnage.
Phoenix3568 3 years ago
for God sakes would you stop bitching about the Badland loop. in the end it's just a combo and nothing more. you do realize that the other high tier characters lilke eddie, slayer, jam, and potemkin all do higher damage than testament per combo in general? you're letting what the combo looks like distract you from the fact that the damage is nothing out of the ordinary.
CursedTiamat 3 years ago 2
Damn, TE just seems so cheap. His tree and web attacks should disappear when he gets hit. There was almost no room for Zappa to breathe.
jibikao 3 years ago
It's all in the skills! That's what i'm gona say. Nice fight! :D
chinochocobo 4 years ago
wow that game is intense.
More nerf testament lol!
seriously, that zappa was awesome.
Phoenix3568 4 years ago
He doesn't need a nerf, he just needs to have his stupid loop removed, then he'll be fine.
Shinkada 4 years ago
I don't know why everyone wants to remove Testament's badlands loop. It's not like Zappa, Sol, or Ky don't have loops.
Phoenix3568 4 years ago 2
Zappa's only loop is when he has Raoul out, and unless you're very good at guarding, if Raoul's out you're fucked anyway. Sol's had a loop since the beginning of time, and Ky's loop is rubbish weak. The reason I hate Testament's loop is because it's stupid, and you see players like Shonen going around who have no idea how to use traps, using a trap character, purely because he has a loop.
Shinkada 4 years ago
yeah I mean, it's not like shounen's been playing Testament since XX when he was one of the lowest tier characters....oh wait a minute he WAS using Testament in GGXX and every game after.
nyagamun 4 years ago
And he hasn't gotten anything higher than a cult following pre-AC because he didn't have his loop. He got a BIT of recognition in Slash due to the Forward Exe Beast, but that's it. It's only since the Badlands Loop has Shonen gone from 'one of the people Testament players know about' to 'omfg he wins vs every1 hes so kewl'.
Shinkada 4 years ago
LOL Raou loop only lasts 3 reps against most characters, hardly a loop really, more of an extended combo. Even Sol's Sidewinder loop can go 10 times if the players good. And Ky... I can't in good conscious, call that a loop. That's just silly.
O1bo1 4 years ago
My point exactly. The only characters who SHOULD have loops are either:
-Characters who're gunna fuck you up anyway, or
-Characters who don't HAVE good combos other than the loops.
The main examples of 1 are ABA and Zappa with Raoul. Main example of 2 is Sol. And the only example I can really think of. All other characters like Slayer, May, Jam and Testament just shouldn't have them. They're boring, and usually take less skill than the characters' REAL combos.
Shinkada 4 years ago
Loops can be annoying at times, and I'll admit that Jam's loop is easy as hell to do, but really, Slayer and especially Testament are another story. If Testament loops were so easy to pull off, then why is Shonen so distinguished? How about you master the Badlands loop and go dethrone him yourself, if you want to prove a point. Shonen has worked his ass off to get where he is now.
This was a great match, Abe is a very skillful Zappa and did what he could to put up a fight, all bickering aside
0DKV0 4 years ago 2
I don't know why others don't try. Maybe they don't want to be an immitator. Maybe they don't like loops, either. Slayer, yeah, you need some insane positioning to get the timing right. I still don't like it, but it is hard to do. Badlands Loop? You can do it off nearly every move Testament has. It takes a bit of practice to get the timing of the loop down itself, but once you do, you can turn almost any random hit into a 50%+ damage combo. =/ It's broken to hell.
Shinkada 4 years ago
Dude are you at it again? Every damn testament player uses the badlands loop. It would be retarded for the player NOT to use the loop. Shonen is the best Testament player, he has definitely mastered how to use traps. You don't know what you're talking about.
Emillll 3 years ago 2
The only thing the retard's learnt how to use is random hits to do half your health. Gtfo, I'm sick of arguing with you fuckwits. It would be retarded not to use it, if you're a desperate fuckwit who hasn't been laid in 10 years and thus can't imagine not abusing every bullshit trick in the book just to win a fucking game instead of having fucking fun.
To quote Machinae Supremacy: "Do you always play only to win?"
Shinkada 3 years ago
Haha if you're getting sick of it, drop the provocative comments and the witty behaviour. I see you all over the place bitching over this and that, just enjoy the damn game and stop picking fights.
Hikuupuu 3 years ago 2
I'd love to enjoy the damn game but every time I do it seems Potemkin jumps out of nowhere and OTG's me.
Shinkada 3 years ago
Do you even watch Shonen's Matches? It's not like all he does is Badlands loop -> Win.
He barely even uses the thing much, because he usually has better options (Guarunteed corner knockdown, curse, etc.)
Try to wrap your brain around the concept that some people get plenty of fun from using the badlands loop. Especially if they see someone like you pissed at them for doing said loop.
Pandaman64 3 years ago
Amen.
whokilledmydoggie 3 years ago
Hey Shinkada, you're a fucking scrub. Stop whining like a little pussy and talking about "play for fun" and go play some fucking Let's tap or something... that kind of game is geared towards scrubs like you. Keep the fighting games for people who know what competition means.
DemonmachinE 2 years ago
Lol'd. You and that word again.
You're the kind of loser who condones steroid use, too, I suppose.
Shinkada 2 years ago
No, I don't condone steroid use. Steroids are the equivalent of hacking and I don't condone hacking. I condone taking advantage of the options presented to you within the legal context of the game's rules.
In baseball, players have the option, at bat, to stand at either side of the plate... they stand on the side that's more comfortable for them... they wouldn't stand on the other side because their team would have less of a chance to win.
Why? They're not scrubs like you.
DemonmachinE 2 years ago
But if God (the developers) didn't want us to use steroids (loops crossups etc) he wouldn't have put them in the world (game)!
Shinkada 2 years ago
That logic is flawed. The rule-makers of sports leagues made a rule against steroid use, thus they're not allowed. The developers set the rules within the game's universe by allowing certain mechanics to be available to the player.
Hacks are not something the devs allow within the typical rules of the game, just as steroids are not something the rule-makers for the sport allow.
DemonmachinE 2 years ago 2
Actually in this analogy the rule-makers of sports leagues would be akin to the organizers of tournaments.
The devs are not Gods, though, so yes, this logic is flawed. They are only humans who can be wrong just like anyone else. Just because they put it in the game doesn't mean it's good. Refraining from loops to make the game more based on reflexes and strategy than tapping out pre-discovered button sequences DOES make it more fun, so I say do it.
Shinkada 2 years ago
No, the tournament organizers set up the rules that have to do with non-game-mechanic related things like prize money and eliminations...
In a less balanced game like Super Smash Bros Melee, they make other rules like disabling items and levels, but ultimately the gameplay remains unchanged.
Anyway, this argument is futile.... You posted your original comment a year ago. You were wrong then, and you're still wrong now. Everybody here seems to disagree with you, which is saying something.
DemonmachinE 2 years ago
I agree that it's saying something, but all's I'm reading is "I'd rather memorize buttons and play rock paper scissors with crossups, mixups and throw/unblockable setups than contemplate silly things like well-timed counters and unpredictable strategy."
See the problem is that all the people who think like me, don't play in tourneys, or watch tourney vids. I wouldn't either if any of my friends, who could be trusted not to be bullshit, actually played fighting games.
Shinkada 2 years ago
It's not a matter of memorizing buttons and playing rock paper scissors, because RPS is a game of luck. The fact is, you need an incredible amount of skill to be able to play the mixup game necessary to play on a high level. How exactly can you be against mixups? They're the entire game! High, Low, Overhead, and Mid attacks are the entire crux of the blocking/attacking game... it doesn't make sense to have a problem with those... they take reflexes and counters just like you want!
DemonmachinE 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Personally I think the game would be a lot better if high/low guarding wasn't necessary. You're right, mixups are the entire game at high level play, which I think is bad. It's basically a brick wall between normal players and tourney players. If I use mixups against my friends they get demolished in seconds regardless of how good they are, because they don't play in tourneys. Plus if mixups weren't in the picture then perfect guarding and slashbacks would be way more critical.
Shinkada 2 years ago
@Shinkada your 'perfect game' sounds like SF3TS- stop playing GGAC.
cursedvanity 1 year ago
....
shonen was the best reload testament, the best slash testament........
zatoTWO 3 years ago
That's not saying much. Barely anyone used Testament back then. They still don't. Shounen's pretty much the only 'professional-level' TE player. Testament has a lot of potential but very few people use his traps creatively so he doesn't get very far. NO Testament player was that recognized until Accent Core.
Face it. Shounen was small-talk before he gained the ability to kill half your health off of almost any attack he has.
Shinkada 3 years ago
I've read almost every comment that you've put down here, Shinkada, and the one thing that pisses me off the most is the fact that you want everyone to stop using moves that are listed as "unfair" in your book and want people to ignore them? I think its complete bullshit! I play as Zappa and Its like saying that I should ignore the chance to summon Raou because he's too overpowered.
Negrenade 2 years ago
Actually, a more accurate assessment would be if Zappa had a 50% combo that he could chain off the counterhits of even his most basic attacks, without any of his summons. Everyone would start using Zappa, and rather than Raou being a staple of his gameplay (regardless of whether he's actually summoned or just used as a threat to put people on edge) they'd simply fall back on that combo over and over.
Shinkada 2 years ago
I want to be like Abe when i grow up !! *_*
Johnyster 4 years ago 3
I wouldn't say its a battle between the titans. Though I was surprised at the read he had right at the end. That DAA bait was gold!!
recca4001 4 years ago
this is definitly a battle between titans lol, 5 stars ^^
Chiaroscuro6543 4 years ago 2
That was some zoning. I couldn't even keep up
EyeKanSpelGude 4 years ago
Shonen knows that the Dog will fuck him up if he's not careful.
cursedvanity 4 years ago