The action by the offense is not legal - it is designed to draw the defense offside - no need to get into the rule book as that has been well documented - it all comes down to judgment by the officials.
If it matters to the non-officials on this thread I have been a D1A official for 26 years, a crew chief for 10 years, worked 13 bowls games plus a national D1A championship game. I would call this a foul everytime and if I didn't, my supervisor would downgrade me in a heartbeat.
Wrong! Rule 7-1-3(4) provides in pertinent part that no linemen may move after having placed their hand(s)on the ground, near the ground or below their knee. It's clear in the video that #71 (Right Tackle) had his right hand below his knee then raised it just before the shift. Thus, illegal.
OK RefMike, since you are the world's ultimate authority pertaining to All Things NCAA Football Officiating, perhaps you can take a break from pontificating about this rule and explain the following:
Not sure which blocks you are referring to. Do you have video of them/
It is not uncommon to have 1 team with significantly more fouls than the other. I do not follow LSU but do they have a problem with fouls this year? Refs are not supposed to ensure each team gets the same number of fouls called. They are supposed to call what they see, regardless of how that affects the penalty count.
The illegal blocks that knocked Dorsey and T. Jackson out in the 1st half (they're on YouTube, like the 2 that weren't called in LSU vs. Aub).
I've played, coached and officiated football and other sports, & I know--and so do you, 'cos it's obvious you have exper. & knowledge--that refs don't always call what they see AND they're influenced by home crowds, etc. (& some don't know the rules well & make to bad calls. Even if YOU don't & know what's "supposed" to be done, it happens all the time.
Clearly not all fouls are seen and therefore not all are called. Perhaps the reason you left officiating is because you were unable to keep yourself from being influenced unfairly. That may have been your situation but it is not mine or that of any of the guys I ref with.
The block on Dorsey was not illegal. A chop block is defined as one offensive player holding up a defensive player while another player takes out the legs. That didn't happen when Dorsey was injured. I don't recall the play for T.Jackson.
Also, something like half of LSU's penalties were 15-yard personal fouls for late hits, face-masks, and unsportsmanlike conduct. That is the difference in the penalty spread. Not some nefarious conspiracy.
I have to admire RefMike for trying to answer your questions professionally despite your inappropriate, cynical and sarcastic personal tone. I wouldn't have bothered.
RefMike, you are misreading the rule by applying it to the entire line. Each of the linemen respectively made "smooth rythmical" LEGAL moves that did not simulate the beginning of a play. The combination of their movements may not have appeared smooth and rythmical and may have simulated the start of the play, but this rule does not apply to an entire offensive line.
Another uninformed fan. By definition, a shift involves at least 2 players moving at the same time. If only 1 moves, you might call it a shift but by rulebook definition, it is NOT a shift. And that really does not matter in this play anyway. Any honest person knows what LSU was trying to do. You can choose to ignore that but the unbiased observers know otherwise.
No offense intended, but you are not an official and the rulebook can be confusing even for refs, much less for non-refs. The bottom line is that only 1 part of the false start rule has to be violated to have a false start. You appear to be trying to say all parts must apply.
No offense, but he's stating the exception clause. That would be the part of the rule that explains the 1 part you seem to think was violated. The rule explicitly states that shifts are allowed. The argument is whether or not it was a simulated snap. Thus he quoted the parts of the rules that deal with simulated snaps. Don't get all high-and-mighty on us. We don't know you're a ref and it would be childish of me to ask what conference you work for, wouldn't it?
It has nothing to do with "simulating a snap" It is the simulation of the start of the play which causes this to be a foul. The snapper can be completly motionless but if other players make movements, like several LSU players did, that appears to be the start of the play, it is a foul. How can anyone read the rule I provided and NOT see how LSU violated it?? You call the shift they did "smooth and rythmical"??
Yes. Remarkably smooth considering they weigh 300 lbs a piece. It was obvious they intended to shift when they didn't put their hands down, thus a simultaneous shift shouldn't have drawn a flag.
Nice try. You know perfectly well what they were trying to do and you probably noted the officiating crew did not hesitate for a second trying to decide how to handle. They all knew what was up as well.
In all honestly, yes, I know what they were trying to do. I think it is legal. I erred when I said simultaneous, but not much. It's actually two shifts, but both are legal. PS The referee says in the game that the first penalty was simulating the snap. I was there.
Well then what is the argument? If a team does something that is designed to get the other team to jump offside, it is a foul.
As for what the ref announced, this is just semantics. The rule prevents "simulating the start of a play" He should have said that instead of "simulating the snap" but that does not change the fact there was a foul and it was enforced correctly.
(c) A lineman between the snapper and the player on the end of the line, after having placed a hand(s) on or near the ground (below the knees), moving his hand(s) or making any quick movement; or a lineman other than the snapper wearing number 50 through 79, after having placed a hand(s) on or near the ground (below the knees), moving his hand(s) or making any quick movement.
Exception: It is not a false start if any player on the line of scrimmage immediately reacts when threatened by a Team B player in the neutral zone (Rule 7-1-5-a-2) (A.R. 7-1-3-VIII and IX). (d) An offensive player between the snapper and the player on the end of the line, neither legally in the backfield nor legally on the line of scrimmage, after having placed a hand(s) on or near the ground (below the knees), moving his hand(s) or making any quick movement.
The applicable section of the rulebook is 7-1-4-b:
b. It is not intended that Rule 7-1-4-a should prohibit smooth, rhythmical shifts if properly executed. A smooth cadence shift or unhurried motion is not an infraction. However, it is the responsibility of an offensive player who moves before the snap to do so in a manner that in no way simulates the beginning of a play.
Please note no LSU Offensive lineman (other than the center who had his hand on the ball and did not move his hand or the ball) had their hand below their knees. their hands were all on their thigh pads.
The Ofensive line did immediately react to a defensive player in the neutral zone which is not a false start.
wow you people.. ok heres the facts... the play was legal.. the mistake in all of this was a simulated snap, the center eather moved the ball before this happened or matt flynn said hutt before the movement. That is why they called false start on it.
..and another uninformed poster. Had nothing to do with the snapper. The actions of several players "simulated the start of a play" and by rule, that is illegal.
Actually it isnt illegal, it was the fact that number 71 moved. Had they allowed the ball the D to touch them then it would have been offsides. The O-line was NOT set. I don't know if they told the refs or not prior to the game that they were gonna try that at some point, if they didnt the refs would have been lookin for it.
Actually it IS illegal. The coach likely did not tell the refs about it in pregame as he knew what he would be told, that it is illegal. Taske a look at the NCAA rulebook (7-1-4-b)
to bad
JAMFESTCHICK 4 years ago
The action by the offense is not legal - it is designed to draw the defense offside - no need to get into the rule book as that has been well documented - it all comes down to judgment by the officials.
If it matters to the non-officials on this thread I have been a D1A official for 26 years, a crew chief for 10 years, worked 13 bowls games plus a national D1A championship game. I would call this a foul everytime and if I didn't, my supervisor would downgrade me in a heartbeat.
99zebra 4 years ago
Wrong! Rule 7-1-3(4) provides in pertinent part that no linemen may move after having placed their hand(s)on the ground, near the ground or below their knee. It's clear in the video that #71 (Right Tackle) had his right hand below his knee then raised it just before the shift. Thus, illegal.
palma209 4 years ago
Palm209 - agree that it is illegal as my post said so I'm not sure what you mean in your reply by saying at the beginning "Wrong!"
99zebra 4 years ago
OK RefMike, since you are the world's ultimate authority pertaining to All Things NCAA Football Officiating, perhaps you can take a break from pontificating about this rule and explain the following:
Those 2 no-call chop-blocks--legal?
LSU--14 penalties for 140 yds., 'Bama--2 for 15.
'Bama--6 first-downs via penalty, LSU--0.
johnsec2006 4 years ago
Not sure which blocks you are referring to. Do you have video of them/
It is not uncommon to have 1 team with significantly more fouls than the other. I do not follow LSU but do they have a problem with fouls this year? Refs are not supposed to ensure each team gets the same number of fouls called. They are supposed to call what they see, regardless of how that affects the penalty count.
RefMike 4 years ago
The illegal blocks that knocked Dorsey and T. Jackson out in the 1st half (they're on YouTube, like the 2 that weren't called in LSU vs. Aub).
I've played, coached and officiated football and other sports, & I know--and so do you, 'cos it's obvious you have exper. & knowledge--that refs don't always call what they see AND they're influenced by home crowds, etc. (& some don't know the rules well & make to bad calls. Even if YOU don't & know what's "supposed" to be done, it happens all the time.
johnsec2006 4 years ago
Clearly not all fouls are seen and therefore not all are called. Perhaps the reason you left officiating is because you were unable to keep yourself from being influenced unfairly. That may have been your situation but it is not mine or that of any of the guys I ref with.
RefMike 4 years ago
The block on Dorsey was not illegal. A chop block is defined as one offensive player holding up a defensive player while another player takes out the legs. That didn't happen when Dorsey was injured. I don't recall the play for T.Jackson.
Also, something like half of LSU's penalties were 15-yard personal fouls for late hits, face-masks, and unsportsmanlike conduct. That is the difference in the penalty spread. Not some nefarious conspiracy.
JSGrill 4 years ago
I have to admire RefMike for trying to answer your questions professionally despite your inappropriate, cynical and sarcastic personal tone. I wouldn't have bothered.
99zebra 4 years ago
RefMike, you are misreading the rule by applying it to the entire line. Each of the linemen respectively made "smooth rythmical" LEGAL moves that did not simulate the beginning of a play. The combination of their movements may not have appeared smooth and rythmical and may have simulated the start of the play, but this rule does not apply to an entire offensive line.
sfalgo3 4 years ago
Another uninformed fan. By definition, a shift involves at least 2 players moving at the same time. If only 1 moves, you might call it a shift but by rulebook definition, it is NOT a shift. And that really does not matter in this play anyway. Any honest person knows what LSU was trying to do. You can choose to ignore that but the unbiased observers know otherwise.
RefMike 4 years ago
No offense intended, but you are not an official and the rulebook can be confusing even for refs, much less for non-refs. The bottom line is that only 1 part of the false start rule has to be violated to have a false start. You appear to be trying to say all parts must apply.
RefMike 4 years ago
No offense, but he's stating the exception clause. That would be the part of the rule that explains the 1 part you seem to think was violated. The rule explicitly states that shifts are allowed. The argument is whether or not it was a simulated snap. Thus he quoted the parts of the rules that deal with simulated snaps. Don't get all high-and-mighty on us. We don't know you're a ref and it would be childish of me to ask what conference you work for, wouldn't it?
BrockAly 4 years ago
It has nothing to do with "simulating a snap" It is the simulation of the start of the play which causes this to be a foul. The snapper can be completly motionless but if other players make movements, like several LSU players did, that appears to be the start of the play, it is a foul. How can anyone read the rule I provided and NOT see how LSU violated it?? You call the shift they did "smooth and rythmical"??
RefMike 4 years ago
Yes. Remarkably smooth considering they weigh 300 lbs a piece. It was obvious they intended to shift when they didn't put their hands down, thus a simultaneous shift shouldn't have drawn a flag.
BrockAly 4 years ago
Nice try. You know perfectly well what they were trying to do and you probably noted the officiating crew did not hesitate for a second trying to decide how to handle. They all knew what was up as well.
RefMike 4 years ago
In all honestly, yes, I know what they were trying to do. I think it is legal. I erred when I said simultaneous, but not much. It's actually two shifts, but both are legal. PS The referee says in the game that the first penalty was simulating the snap. I was there.
BrockAly 4 years ago
Look a WebWideLeader's video, the referee calls it simulating a snap. Which didn't happen.
BrockAly 4 years ago
Well then what is the argument? If a team does something that is designed to get the other team to jump offside, it is a foul.
As for what the ref announced, this is just semantics. The rule prevents "simulating the start of a play" He should have said that instead of "simulating the snap" but that does not change the fact there was a foul and it was enforced correctly.
RefMike 4 years ago
(c) A lineman between the snapper and the player on the end of the line, after having placed a hand(s) on or near the ground (below the knees), moving his hand(s) or making any quick movement; or a lineman other than the snapper wearing number 50 through 79, after having placed a hand(s) on or near the ground (below the knees), moving his hand(s) or making any quick movement.
sneauxflake1 4 years ago
Exception: It is not a false start if any player on the line of scrimmage immediately reacts when threatened by a Team B player in the neutral zone (Rule 7-1-5-a-2) (A.R. 7-1-3-VIII and IX). (d) An offensive player between the snapper and the player on the end of the line, neither legally in the backfield nor legally on the line of scrimmage, after having placed a hand(s) on or near the ground (below the knees), moving his hand(s) or making any quick movement.
sneauxflake1 4 years ago
The applicable section of the rulebook is 7-1-4-b:
b. It is not intended that Rule 7-1-4-a should prohibit smooth, rhythmical shifts if properly executed. A smooth cadence shift or unhurried motion is not an infraction. However, it is the responsibility of an offensive player who moves before the snap to do so in a manner that in no way simulates the beginning of a play.
RefMike 4 years ago
5. An official shall sound his whistle when (A.R. 4-1-4-I):
(a) There is a false start (A.R. 3-2-6-I and A.R. 7-1-3-VII-IX).
(b) An offensive player is in or beyond the neutral zone after the
snapper touches or simulates (hand[s] at or below his knees)
touching the ball.
Note: An infraction of this rule may be penalized whether or not the ball is
snapped, and the penalty for any resulting offside by an opponent shall be
canceled [S7 and S19].
sneauxflake1 4 years ago
Please note no LSU Offensive lineman (other than the center who had his hand on the ball and did not move his hand or the ball) had their hand below their knees. their hands were all on their thigh pads.
The Ofensive line did immediately react to a defensive player in the neutral zone which is not a false start.
sneauxflake1 4 years ago
LSU shifted.
Alabama moves.
LSU then contacts Alabama.
The rest is just dumb.
sneauxflake1 4 years ago
The rules are very specific about what constitutes a legal shift and what is illegal. LSU's shift was clearly illegal.
RefMike 4 years ago
wow you people.. ok heres the facts... the play was legal.. the mistake in all of this was a simulated snap, the center eather moved the ball before this happened or matt flynn said hutt before the movement. That is why they called false start on it.
tube2a 4 years ago
..and another uninformed poster. Had nothing to do with the snapper. The actions of several players "simulated the start of a play" and by rule, that is illegal.
RefMike 4 years ago
Yes, it was legal. And LSU contacted in neutral zone. What was not legal was the removing of the helmet afterwards.
sneauxflake1 4 years ago
Yet another uninformed poster. Who told you it was legal?
RefMike 4 years ago
Actually it isnt illegal, it was the fact that number 71 moved. Had they allowed the ball the D to touch them then it would have been offsides. The O-line was NOT set. I don't know if they told the refs or not prior to the game that they were gonna try that at some point, if they didnt the refs would have been lookin for it.
jamesmcgovern 4 years ago
Actually it IS illegal. The coach likely did not tell the refs about it in pregame as he knew what he would be told, that it is illegal. Taske a look at the NCAA rulebook (7-1-4-b)
RefMike 4 years ago
Ill-executed play, just like most of LSU's play that night. Luckily for them, they had superior talent and prevailed.
keepnitreal2day 4 years ago