Don't these techniques require that your opponent attacks you in specific ways and that their reactions after your first counter are specific too? I realise that bodies will respond in certain ways if you strike them but these bunkai seem too prescriptive. Too scripted, if you will.
In response to both your posts, these are very scripted techniques for the purpose of a learning tool. I have known people to use a nukite through a watermellon, but yes it should be a soft tissue stirke in most cases. Remember this is one of the earliest katas and bunkais. There for just the repetition of this block can do this and a leason well worth while.
Thanks for the reply. Just to clarify, I'm a 3rd dan shotokan and, due to my remote location, am training with a shukokai (shito-ryu) club. So, I have experienced the differences between these katas.
Personally, I think it's wrong-headed teaching to show impracticable bunkai. Students should learn the realistic technique for the start. That way hey don't have to unlearn the incorrect one later on.
As the poster of the video I'd welcome your thoughts on why you practice/teach these techniques/responses. And whether you see them as being genuinely practical responses to attacks. Also, whether you think that they are the only/best/best anyone can think of applications of those kata sequences.
Oh God no, these are not the best/best anyone can think of applications! Reason number one I practice/teach these techniques is that they are the perscribed way of teaching. Other reasons are that although some techniques are seemingly waistfull (the pre-set high hand and/or the nukite to the chest justto name two) they do serve a purpose further on down the line as a student becomes more adept (Pre-set hand is deflecting block, Nukite is a deflecting block). Needless to say...
Some bunkai just are beyond me and I question if there were a few things lost in translation (Heian - Pinan) such as one bunkai had me break an arm, block a punch, then block a punch from the arm that I just broke!
Often I find bunkai to restrictive to the growing student, but just like kihon it is a good starting point often with techniques not yet fully understood.
Thank you for your replies. They were well considered.
I'm glad you do question things. We all should. Just because something is prescribed doesn't make it right. So it's great that you think "hmm, why do I do this?"
I don't know you syllabus so it's hard to comment fully on how these build up into something more 'meaningful' later on.
However, I will say this. If something looks stupid to you it probably is. With your experience, as a black belt, you can analyse moves comprehensively.
The one sequence you mentioned there, after you've broken his arm why is he even still attacking? It's very very unlikely right? Then to block an attack from the arm you've just 'broken'? Well, that says to me that this 'bunkai' is wrong. You're being taught poor concepts because (1) that's what your teacher learnt or (2) some high Dan made it up and he/she is wrong. He/she can't know what the move is unless they invented that kata as the real moves were lost about 100 years ago.
I'd recommend a few research points - a book by Bruce Clayton: Shotokan's Secret - fascinating history book which covers the split between Naha-Te and Shuri-Te so is relevant to you. Then anything by Iain Abernathy - an English Wado-Ryu sensei - his bunkai will open your eyes as it's a practical as it is fitting - no fudging to make moves fit into the kata sequence. Then last, but certainly not least, anything by Sensei Vince Morris - try kissaki kai on YouTube. The master of bunkai IMHO
I can't recommend the Clayton book highly enough for its insight into the roots of linear karate and his hypothesis on it being 'bodyguard techniques' and THEN on how to apply that thinking to karate now and to make it relevant for men, women and kids - who, let's face it, should not be learning all the same techniques. Kids are never going to be able to punch out an adult attacking them - they need something else, like escape and evasion - which is on the katas.
I suppose one final comment I'd have is that if the bunkai you (or anyone) is practising involves defences against karate attacks - oi-zuki, mae-geri, etc - then I'd question why. Bunkai isn't about learning to defend yourself against another karate person but against a street brawler or knifeman or spear/bayonet wielder but not a karate expert.
Sorry, I disagree. I attained my shodan in Shotokan, studying under Japanese teachers (Mori Sensei, and Isami Sensei, both JKA and Shin Tsukii Sensei, JKF). They never mentioned mae geri in any of the Heian Shodan applications. I also attended several classes in Okinawan Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu (Nagmine Sensei). The Okinawans call Heian Shodan, Pinan NIdan, not Heian Nidan. Their bunkai of doesn't have mae-geri either.
Perhaps it a difference between Shotokan and Shito-ryu. Needless to say there are several interpretations of the application (i.e. the multiple ways to interpret a down block- block, block strike, block double strike, deflection, deflection take down, etc)
doh, I accidently removed your reply when I ment to hit reply - so I am sorry. I always find it interesting how many JKA people also know shito-kai and how many shito-kai people know JKA.
But I will keep it labled as is because Shodan and Nidan titles will vary depending on who is teaching. I have never had Mabuni or Kanazawa care enough to argue Nidan or Shodan. Though Pinan and Heian is a dialect difference - but still a pain as I originated in an okinawan art.
Shotokan practitioners around the globe know about the other traditional styles. Through the WKF (World Karate Fed) Karate-Ka of different disciplines of traditional Karate can come together and compete. In Japan, JKF (Japan Karate Fed) holds tournaments and seminars that promotes cross training and competitions between the schools of Shotokan, Goju-Ryu, etc. JKA is a member of the JKF. Also, I don't think Mabuni and Kanazawa would ever interchange the names of kata. Read their books.
I have read their books and talked with them (though needed a translator). Until I am told otherwise from either an IOC judging seminar to judge the names as incorrect or by the WSKF, the label stays. I really don't think the label of the begining katas is near as important as what you can learn from them. I don't even think the base style is as important as long as it serves a purpose and leads to a quality education. We are all climbing the same mountain, there are just many paths to the top.
Just curious, how did you get to talk to Kenwa Mabuni? He died in 1952. Or did you talk to his son, Kenei, who's 91 years old by now. How did you get to meet Hirokazu Kanazawa? That would be an interesting story.
Only the brief and amazing conversation with Mabuni, most of the contact is with Iwata, Murayama ot Sato. Kanazawa was almost an accident due to a Shoto-Kan school being much easier to access than a Shito-ryu school for a friend living in Japan. I went to visit when he was awarded his Sho-dan and it happened to be a large event which Kanazawa was at. Needless to say I did not want to pass up a chance to talk to him, but had to do it as politely as possible. Still such concern over a name.
You would have loved the discusions when my school went from okinawan arts to Shito-ryu. Not only was there long arguements over nidan and shodan, but also over passai/bassai, pinan/heian, and much much more.
Heian Shodan is the first kata in shotokan but becomes PINANnidan in some other styles like wado ryu. By my knowing there iss no diference in the heian kata between okinawa and japan...
hahahahahahhaha....please
becs5120 1 year ago
Oh, and why have your back hand so high on the opening move? I know it's the kata technique but it's wasted as a response to that attack.
And a nukite to the solar plex? Really? You're risking broken fingers if you strike the sternum. Try attacking the throat or eyes with it instead.
bertthepickle 2 years ago
Don't these techniques require that your opponent attacks you in specific ways and that their reactions after your first counter are specific too? I realise that bodies will respond in certain ways if you strike them but these bunkai seem too prescriptive. Too scripted, if you will.
bertthepickle 2 years ago
In response to both your posts, these are very scripted techniques for the purpose of a learning tool. I have known people to use a nukite through a watermellon, but yes it should be a soft tissue stirke in most cases. Remember this is one of the earliest katas and bunkais. There for just the repetition of this block can do this and a leason well worth while.
luv2flyjrn 2 years ago
Thanks for the reply. Just to clarify, I'm a 3rd dan shotokan and, due to my remote location, am training with a shukokai (shito-ryu) club. So, I have experienced the differences between these katas.
Personally, I think it's wrong-headed teaching to show impracticable bunkai. Students should learn the realistic technique for the start. That way hey don't have to unlearn the incorrect one later on.
Each to their own though.
bertthepickle 2 years ago
I like this phrase the best, "wrong-headed teaching " But to each their own.
senseijohnnelson 2 years ago
As the poster of the video I'd welcome your thoughts on why you practice/teach these techniques/responses. And whether you see them as being genuinely practical responses to attacks. Also, whether you think that they are the only/best/best anyone can think of applications of those kata sequences.
bertthepickle 2 years ago
Oh God no, these are not the best/best anyone can think of applications! Reason number one I practice/teach these techniques is that they are the perscribed way of teaching. Other reasons are that although some techniques are seemingly waistfull (the pre-set high hand and/or the nukite to the chest justto name two) they do serve a purpose further on down the line as a student becomes more adept (Pre-set hand is deflecting block, Nukite is a deflecting block). Needless to say...
senseijohnnelson 2 years ago
Some bunkai just are beyond me and I question if there were a few things lost in translation (Heian - Pinan) such as one bunkai had me break an arm, block a punch, then block a punch from the arm that I just broke!
Often I find bunkai to restrictive to the growing student, but just like kihon it is a good starting point often with techniques not yet fully understood.
senseijohnnelson 2 years ago
Thank you for your replies. They were well considered.
I'm glad you do question things. We all should. Just because something is prescribed doesn't make it right. So it's great that you think "hmm, why do I do this?"
I don't know you syllabus so it's hard to comment fully on how these build up into something more 'meaningful' later on.
However, I will say this. If something looks stupid to you it probably is. With your experience, as a black belt, you can analyse moves comprehensively.
bertthepickle 2 years ago
The one sequence you mentioned there, after you've broken his arm why is he even still attacking? It's very very unlikely right? Then to block an attack from the arm you've just 'broken'? Well, that says to me that this 'bunkai' is wrong. You're being taught poor concepts because (1) that's what your teacher learnt or (2) some high Dan made it up and he/she is wrong. He/she can't know what the move is unless they invented that kata as the real moves were lost about 100 years ago.
bertthepickle 2 years ago
I'd recommend a few research points - a book by Bruce Clayton: Shotokan's Secret - fascinating history book which covers the split between Naha-Te and Shuri-Te so is relevant to you. Then anything by Iain Abernathy - an English Wado-Ryu sensei - his bunkai will open your eyes as it's a practical as it is fitting - no fudging to make moves fit into the kata sequence. Then last, but certainly not least, anything by Sensei Vince Morris - try kissaki kai on YouTube. The master of bunkai IMHO
bertthepickle 2 years ago
I can't recommend the Clayton book highly enough for its insight into the roots of linear karate and his hypothesis on it being 'bodyguard techniques' and THEN on how to apply that thinking to karate now and to make it relevant for men, women and kids - who, let's face it, should not be learning all the same techniques. Kids are never going to be able to punch out an adult attacking them - they need something else, like escape and evasion - which is on the katas.
bertthepickle 2 years ago
I suppose one final comment I'd have is that if the bunkai you (or anyone) is practising involves defences against karate attacks - oi-zuki, mae-geri, etc - then I'd question why. Bunkai isn't about learning to defend yourself against another karate person but against a street brawler or knifeman or spear/bayonet wielder but not a karate expert.
Besides, train that when you do kumite right :)
bertthepickle 2 years ago
Sorry, I disagree. I attained my shodan in Shotokan, studying under Japanese teachers (Mori Sensei, and Isami Sensei, both JKA and Shin Tsukii Sensei, JKF). They never mentioned mae geri in any of the Heian Shodan applications. I also attended several classes in Okinawan Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu (Nagmine Sensei). The Okinawans call Heian Shodan, Pinan NIdan, not Heian Nidan. Their bunkai of doesn't have mae-geri either.
Bassai 2 years ago
Perhaps it a difference between Shotokan and Shito-ryu. Needless to say there are several interpretations of the application (i.e. the multiple ways to interpret a down block- block, block strike, block double strike, deflection, deflection take down, etc)
luv2flyjrn 2 years ago
doh, I accidently removed your reply when I ment to hit reply - so I am sorry. I always find it interesting how many JKA people also know shito-kai and how many shito-kai people know JKA.
But I will keep it labled as is because Shodan and Nidan titles will vary depending on who is teaching. I have never had Mabuni or Kanazawa care enough to argue Nidan or Shodan. Though Pinan and Heian is a dialect difference - but still a pain as I originated in an okinawan art.
senseijohnnelson 2 years ago
Shotokan practitioners around the globe know about the other traditional styles. Through the WKF (World Karate Fed) Karate-Ka of different disciplines of traditional Karate can come together and compete. In Japan, JKF (Japan Karate Fed) holds tournaments and seminars that promotes cross training and competitions between the schools of Shotokan, Goju-Ryu, etc. JKA is a member of the JKF. Also, I don't think Mabuni and Kanazawa would ever interchange the names of kata. Read their books.
Bassai 2 years ago
I have read their books and talked with them (though needed a translator). Until I am told otherwise from either an IOC judging seminar to judge the names as incorrect or by the WSKF, the label stays. I really don't think the label of the begining katas is near as important as what you can learn from them. I don't even think the base style is as important as long as it serves a purpose and leads to a quality education. We are all climbing the same mountain, there are just many paths to the top.
senseijohnnelson 2 years ago
Just curious, how did you get to talk to Kenwa Mabuni? He died in 1952. Or did you talk to his son, Kenei, who's 91 years old by now. How did you get to meet Hirokazu Kanazawa? That would be an interesting story.
Bassai 2 years ago
Only the brief and amazing conversation with Mabuni, most of the contact is with Iwata, Murayama ot Sato. Kanazawa was almost an accident due to a Shoto-Kan school being much easier to access than a Shito-ryu school for a friend living in Japan. I went to visit when he was awarded his Sho-dan and it happened to be a large event which Kanazawa was at. Needless to say I did not want to pass up a chance to talk to him, but had to do it as politely as possible. Still such concern over a name.
senseijohnnelson 2 years ago
You would have loved the discusions when my school went from okinawan arts to Shito-ryu. Not only was there long arguements over nidan and shodan, but also over passai/bassai, pinan/heian, and much much more.
senseijohnnelson 2 years ago
questo è heian nidan bunkai!
gigyx 3 years ago
No this is for Heian Shodan as the Japanese teach it. The Okinawan arts often refer to this as Heian Nidan.
senseijohnnelson 3 years ago
Heian Shodan is the first kata in shotokan but becomes PINANnidan in some other styles like wado ryu. By my knowing there iss no diference in the heian kata between okinawa and japan...
Jarno1510 2 years ago
Hey! Attention! This is not Heian Shodan Bunkai!!! It is Heian Niddan Bunkai! Modify the tittle please
paulhoyosm 3 years ago