Personally I have not seen his video, but the problem of a test that convince an atheist is a false problem. An atheist could not be convinced by a evidence, because the atheist has already established his a priori conclusion.
One of the better rebuttals I have heard or read in recent memory, thank you. I also appreciate (and advocate) the feminist theory you employed by using your own pregnancy as an example. Brilliant, though probably lost on most theists, as they tend to be more right wing/patriarchal.
b ooooo. i was so looking forward to jumping all over jesussaves, but guess what, they knew they were owned big style so deleted the account. accountability it would seem is not a virtue of such deluded minds. good indepth response ljon, i think i now want to have your babies.
About the pregnancy part: According to Schrödinger you would exist in two states: A pregnant, and a non-pregnant until you take a test and break the wave function.
One of the main problems I see with assuming god exist until proven otherwise is that you don't know which god it is. Does every god exist? Shinto has about 9 million gods. do they all exists until proven otherwise?
I don't agree with your pregnancy analogy, because pregnancy has been established to exist - although not in you in particular - AND it is in full harmony with everything we know about the natural world; the natural world - as it is - REQUIRES the existence of pregnancy.
Gods haven't been established to exist and are not required by the order of the natural world the way it is.
hehe, good vid. they didn't even got to the phase of adequately defining god, btw, so they are quite far from testing. they are getting good at claiming though.
Great video. I often wish I had the patience to go through this rigamarole with theists, but I usually don't. I think the reason I don't is because I know they are willing to use reason or logic to examine their beliefs.
For them, it's more about how their belief makes them feel. It makes them feel special. It's that payoff that they dont want to give up. They tell themselves they are on a "higher spiritual plane" than the rationalist, and that indeed WE are the ones who are blind. Silly
the irony is that, when pressed to first define what is meant by 'god', most theists will end up admitting that the nature of god is essentially unknowable. Now, to say 'i believe in god' without having a definite concept of what 'god' refers to is a meaningless statement, so after all the back and forth, believers are basically as agnostic as the rest of us! how about that?
Heh. Around 3:30 I was thinking, "great, now some dipshit is going to claim their wife's pregnancy was immaculate conception because they don't understand Occam's Razor."
No matter how many pitfalls you point out, they'll always find one you didn't point out and immediately fall into it.
@DarkMatter2525 Yeah, it's kind of evasive isn't it? As though your inner thoughts can be dictated my someone else. And that's before even getting into the inaccuracy of it.
@LJonYT I think that when someone makes this claim they are more often illustrating a blind spot in their perception than deliberately being dishonest or deceptive. They believe, and they have a set of memories filed as experiences which validate belief, and they can not conceive of anyone interpreting those experiences differently. I had interestingly similar conversations with friends who believe they do magick. The minds ability to dictate it's own perception is frightening and powerful.
@ApostateltsopA "I had interestingly similar conversations with friends who believe they do magick."
Have you discussed with them the idea of testing their claim in a scientific, James Randi-ish fashion (well... as scientific as you can without requiring a budget and a large team)? Maybe even film it and upload it? If they were serious enough about it, I'm sure they'll agree to it. Tell them your intention is to help them win Randi's million dollars :-P .
@boenrobot I don't spend much time with those friends these days, but every magical effect I recall leaves precious little in the way of evidence. I wouldn't matter though, if a skeptic is around it will make the magic stop working. Ever see the move, skeleton key? "It only works if you believe it..." Human perception is a fluid thing, I have found there is power in managing my own. If only because it keeps me moving when I might otherwise slack or shows opportunity instead of adversity.
@ApostateltsopA I know, I know... but it would be cool to watch them fail non the less, even if they don't fail epicly. For science (or for the LOLs... whichever the viewer appreciates more)!
Worst case scenario: LOLs and nothing more.
Best case scenario: We welcome former "magicians" into the "tribe" of skeptics, and use the video to promote skepticism.
Do think about it if you happen to meet them. I have a friend who claims to be "proper" astrologer, but we can't agree on the tests to do.
@ResistenciaHumana, okay...Here's your chance. Show me your God. If you can't, then why should I believe He exists? Would you buy a car that the salesman can't show you?
@DarkMatter2525 i understand the point unfortunately some things are not that simple , just few years ago scientists didn't know about the existence of the (hipotetic) dark matter and even now they are far from the truth they can't und4rstand what it is , as well as the dark energy or invisible energy many other unknown things we can't assume something doesn't exist only because our limitations
@ResistenciaHumana, I completely agree with you. It is by that SAME exact point that you should NOT make any claims about a god. You're making a claim of knowledge, a claim that you cannot even begin to prove. I'm simply saying that I don't believe you.
Good video and I have subscribed - one small question however and it is about whether you have to define god before discussing communication with him/her/it. To go to your wonderful pregnancy analogy - wouldn't it be suggesting that you need to understand the mechanism of pregnancy before you could become pregnant?
@johncrwarner I don't think that's a valid comparison. Defining is not the same as understanding the mechanism. Also, the comparison is not between discussing communication with God and getting pregnant. It's between believing in God and believing/knowing that you are pregnant.There's also a comparison between communicating with God and using a pregnancy test ("communicating" with the pregnancy, if you will), in which case, some understanding of the mechanism (by someone, anyway) *is* needed.
I know i pointed this out in another comment, but I kinda realized why we hear the same ploys and argument from fundies and theist. They are hacking our believe system; trying to find the right word combination and sentence structure to hijack our mind so they can convert us.
The repetitiveness come from the fact that they don't full understand the meaning of the words they use; they are "Script Jockey"
@LJonYT Good to know I am not the only one. now when I watch any video like his the "scripting" just jumps out now. Even though I think I know the answer, I still can't help but wonder why they avoid trying to understand those terms they miss use.
So simple, so logical, so natural, so intelligent, so normal, so irresistible, so much in accordance with everything we practise in our everyday life chores, yet...
If it comes of applying it to religion - all of a sudden - this harmonious philosophy goes completely ape and, we become a billion member's herd of brainless idiots n' moronic twats who don't even consider of using this 'a must' application for our faith.
From riches to rags in no time, without slightest resistance ?!
The charming, genuine simplicity of one of your statements made me smiling contently. Also, it made me wondering:
How is it humanly possible to forget of using this natural philosophy when dealing with our believes ?
Ale of a sudden – we go goats and Pygmees. We contact our god and hundred thousand years of human intelligence – disappeared. We simply forgot that when asking someone for anything – we must make sure that someone – exists , for fuck sake !!!! :-))
Tons of volumes of deeply philosophical dissertations - pro and against religion - had been written upon something that, you have summarized in few, short sentences.
@audionad Sadly I kinda disagree mostly because most of the time it is theist parroting words and phrases that they are unwilling to understand; so this is why the tend to break the logic of there arguments.
This is also why we see the same argument over and over; but if you directly compare then I think you notice the variance and shifts in the construction. They are not understanding they are "code" breaking, aka hacking.
@HonestDiscussioner You know if I can work sex into the discussion of religion I will, heehee. But really I talked about marital sex and procreation. Christian are at least cool with that, right?!
Personally I have not seen his video, but the problem of a test that convince an atheist is a false problem. An atheist could not be convinced by a evidence, because the atheist has already established his a priori conclusion.
therefore:
04:50
all are erroneous arguments
-----
the best evidence, indeed would be to ask God to make its presence felt, and open your heart for that.
Material evidence are not taken into account for an atheist.
VyckRo 1 month ago
Geez- you're so smart. I'll have what that girl is drinking! So you're not pregnant? Or you are? I got lost. =)
Sofadia 2 months ago
please log on to equip.org and search athiesm for smart clear insight
fools say in their heart their is no god-the beauty of creation proves satan is a liar
soulkiss1001 3 months ago
please log on to equip.org and search athiesm for smart clear insight
fools say in their heart their is no god-the beauty
soulkiss1001 3 months ago
Great video, but it saddens me that these realizations do not naturally occur to so many people.
Ingmatter 3 months ago
One of the better rebuttals I have heard or read in recent memory, thank you. I also appreciate (and advocate) the feminist theory you employed by using your own pregnancy as an example. Brilliant, though probably lost on most theists, as they tend to be more right wing/patriarchal.
PrimeZombie13 3 months ago
Beautiful rigour, beautiful work.
TheraminTrees 3 months ago
Truth and false are only opposites in our current capacity.
SuperMongoloids 3 months ago
b ooooo. i was so looking forward to jumping all over jesussaves, but guess what, they knew they were owned big style so deleted the account. accountability it would seem is not a virtue of such deluded minds. good indepth response ljon, i think i now want to have your babies.
kram83au 3 months ago
Hehehe
About the pregnancy part: According to Schrödinger you would exist in two states: A pregnant, and a non-pregnant until you take a test and break the wave function.
Not that I disagree with you or anything.
founoe 3 months ago 2
Great response, very well done.
Chaochio 3 months ago
Jesussaves1611: "This channel is no longer available because the user has closed their account."
His/her video mentioned in the description: "This video has been removed by the user."
Meh. :/
OldFuck1864 3 months ago
One of the main problems I see with assuming god exist until proven otherwise is that you don't know which god it is. Does every god exist? Shinto has about 9 million gods. do they all exists until proven otherwise?
CanadianNihilist 3 months ago 3
Liked, Fav'd, subbed.
Well played.
Scanini 3 months ago
Wow!!! My mind has been blown!!!
Great job!!!! You just garnered another subscriber!!!!
shade421 3 months ago
I don't agree with your pregnancy analogy, because pregnancy has been established to exist - although not in you in particular - AND it is in full harmony with everything we know about the natural world; the natural world - as it is - REQUIRES the existence of pregnancy.
Gods haven't been established to exist and are not required by the order of the natural world the way it is.
grozde 3 months ago
hehe, good vid. they didn't even got to the phase of adequately defining god, btw, so they are quite far from testing. they are getting good at claiming though.
bocckoka 3 months ago
When god 'spoke' to me he always sounded just like me and always said what I would expect him to say.
iviewthetube 3 months ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Here's some intellectual honesty.. You're an ugly idiot.
sylarwins 3 months ago
@sylarwins wanker
uknowispeaksense 3 months ago
@sylarwins
Here's some more.
You're a waste of oxygen you prick.
UnknownUserName4267 3 months ago
Great comments.
OceanRide1 5 months ago
A well structured argument providing solid reasoning. Well done :)
askegg 7 months ago 13
@askegg Thank you!
LJonYT 7 months ago
Watched your T4P vid the other day and now I find myself re-watching all your work. This one is awesome.
GreatBigBore 8 months ago
Great video. I often wish I had the patience to go through this rigamarole with theists, but I usually don't. I think the reason I don't is because I know they are willing to use reason or logic to examine their beliefs.
For them, it's more about how their belief makes them feel. It makes them feel special. It's that payoff that they dont want to give up. They tell themselves they are on a "higher spiritual plane" than the rationalist, and that indeed WE are the ones who are blind. Silly
MrTruthAddict 10 months ago
the irony is that, when pressed to first define what is meant by 'god', most theists will end up admitting that the nature of god is essentially unknowable. Now, to say 'i believe in god' without having a definite concept of what 'god' refers to is a meaningless statement, so after all the back and forth, believers are basically as agnostic as the rest of us! how about that?
PlanetBongoSan 1 year ago
Heh. Around 3:30 I was thinking, "great, now some dipshit is going to claim their wife's pregnancy was immaculate conception because they don't understand Occam's Razor."
No matter how many pitfalls you point out, they'll always find one you didn't point out and immediately fall into it.
DukeNavarre 1 year ago
I hate it when people assume that the reason I don't believe in God is because I don't want to believe.
DarkMatter2525 1 year ago 21
@DarkMatter2525 Yeah, it's kind of evasive isn't it? As though your inner thoughts can be dictated my someone else. And that's before even getting into the inaccuracy of it.
LJonYT 1 year ago 6
@LJonYT Your video should it be named Intellectual Stupidity
ResistenciaHumana 1 year ago
@ResistenciaHumana But Stupidity is the Main part of the human nature so don't feel bad about what i said
ResistenciaHumana 1 year ago
@LJonYT I think that when someone makes this claim they are more often illustrating a blind spot in their perception than deliberately being dishonest or deceptive. They believe, and they have a set of memories filed as experiences which validate belief, and they can not conceive of anyone interpreting those experiences differently. I had interestingly similar conversations with friends who believe they do magick. The minds ability to dictate it's own perception is frightening and powerful.
ApostateltsopA 5 months ago
@ApostateltsopA I tend to agree with you on that.
LJonYT 5 months ago
@ApostateltsopA "I had interestingly similar conversations with friends who believe they do magick."
Have you discussed with them the idea of testing their claim in a scientific, James Randi-ish fashion (well... as scientific as you can without requiring a budget and a large team)? Maybe even film it and upload it? If they were serious enough about it, I'm sure they'll agree to it. Tell them your intention is to help them win Randi's million dollars :-P .
boenrobot 3 months ago
@boenrobot I don't spend much time with those friends these days, but every magical effect I recall leaves precious little in the way of evidence. I wouldn't matter though, if a skeptic is around it will make the magic stop working. Ever see the move, skeleton key? "It only works if you believe it..." Human perception is a fluid thing, I have found there is power in managing my own. If only because it keeps me moving when I might otherwise slack or shows opportunity instead of adversity.
ApostateltsopA 3 months ago
@ApostateltsopA I know, I know... but it would be cool to watch them fail non the less, even if they don't fail epicly. For science (or for the LOLs... whichever the viewer appreciates more)!
Worst case scenario: LOLs and nothing more.
Best case scenario: We welcome former "magicians" into the "tribe" of skeptics, and use the video to promote skepticism.
Do think about it if you happen to meet them. I have a friend who claims to be "proper" astrologer, but we can't agree on the tests to do.
boenrobot 3 months ago
@DarkMatter2525 The true reason why you BELIEVE God doesn't exist is only because you're ignorant
ResistenciaHumana 1 year ago
@ResistenciaHumana, okay...Here's your chance. Show me your God. If you can't, then why should I believe He exists? Would you buy a car that the salesman can't show you?
DarkMatter2525 1 year ago
@DarkMatter2525 i understand the point unfortunately some things are not that simple , just few years ago scientists didn't know about the existence of the (hipotetic) dark matter and even now they are far from the truth they can't und4rstand what it is , as well as the dark energy or invisible energy many other unknown things we can't assume something doesn't exist only because our limitations
ResistenciaHumana 1 year ago
@ResistenciaHumana, I completely agree with you. It is by that SAME exact point that you should NOT make any claims about a god. You're making a claim of knowledge, a claim that you cannot even begin to prove. I'm simply saying that I don't believe you.
DarkMatter2525 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@ResistenciaHumana "The true reason why you BELIEVE God doesn't exist is only because you're ignorant"
holy bullshit batman.
TheHigherVoltage 1 year ago
Ooh, nice.
MrKrov 1 year ago
@MrKrov Thanks!
LJonYT 1 year ago
@PicklePumpers He's saying his personal beliefs ARE truth.
LJonYT 1 year ago
One of your best vids ever,,, Thanks for your hard work.
itsasin1969 1 year ago
@itsasin1969 Thank you so much. I hope to see you in a few weeks.
LJonYT 1 year ago
Oh the tedious quest of making a logic denier part with his pseudo logic....
good luck
0PsycoDad0 1 year ago
@0PsycoDad0 I just felt like responding. He sent it to me I might as well set him straight.
LJonYT 1 year ago
@LJonYT Well duderina, me has tried this several times and i FAILED miserably.
But i usually don´t behave too well.
0PsycoDad0 1 year ago
Err dudedess
0PsycoDad0 1 year ago
Oh, hell yeah! Fantastic work.
GreatBigBore 1 year ago
@GreatBigBore Thanks!
LJonYT 1 year ago
Can I say "I am the greatest lover in the history of the world and all women who don't believe MUST test it!" Or is that unjustified lol
WayOfTheBastard 1 year ago
@WayOfTheBastard Well you CAN say it. Next step do a survey...
LJonYT 1 year ago
Good video and I have subscribed - one small question however and it is about whether you have to define god before discussing communication with him/her/it. To go to your wonderful pregnancy analogy - wouldn't it be suggesting that you need to understand the mechanism of pregnancy before you could become pregnant?
johncrwarner 1 year ago
@johncrwarner Good point. I hadn't thought about it that way.
LJonYT 1 year ago
@LJonYT
Not that it invalidates your main thrust but it was an interesting question that went through my head.
johncrwarner 1 year ago
@johncrwarner I appreciate it. Always good to have your arguments challenged.
LJonYT 1 year ago
@LJonYT
I tend to learn via dialog and so sharing and learning from that process of listening and exploring together is important for me in thinking.
johncrwarner 1 year ago
@johncrwarner I don't think that's a valid comparison. Defining is not the same as understanding the mechanism. Also, the comparison is not between discussing communication with God and getting pregnant. It's between believing in God and believing/knowing that you are pregnant.There's also a comparison between communicating with God and using a pregnancy test ("communicating" with the pregnancy, if you will), in which case, some understanding of the mechanism (by someone, anyway) *is* needed.
likeAgopher 1 year ago
Ahhh yes well done!
I think I'll be sharing this with others!
ThatOneQuestion 1 year ago
@ThatOneQuestion Thank you!
LJonYT 1 year ago
@LJonYT I recently did a small presentation on over "Intellectual Honesty", so this really made me smile.
Thanks for going through the trouble of replying as you did!
ThatOneQuestion 1 year ago
Total Pwnage
JaguarEscarlata 1 year ago
@JaguarEscarlata Heehee, awesome!
LJonYT 1 year ago
I know i pointed this out in another comment, but I kinda realized why we hear the same ploys and argument from fundies and theist. They are hacking our believe system; trying to find the right word combination and sentence structure to hijack our mind so they can convert us.
The repetitiveness come from the fact that they don't full understand the meaning of the words they use; they are "Script Jockey"
Feed back welcome!!
opaldragon75 1 year ago
@opaldragon75 I thing the 'scripting' is very apparent.
LJonYT 1 year ago
@LJonYT Good to know I am not the only one. now when I watch any video like his the "scripting" just jumps out now. Even though I think I know the answer, I still can't help but wonder why they avoid trying to understand those terms they miss use.
opaldragon75 1 year ago
SO do we start a running poll on whether Jesussaves can even begin to comprehend what was presented here.
Theist do not have a good track record.
opaldragon75 1 year ago
Nice. Subscribed.
torqueman6 1 year ago
@torqueman6 Thanks!
LJonYT 1 year ago
well said
zodiakranch 1 year ago
@zodiakranch Thank you.
LJonYT 1 year ago
4:47 to 5:13
So simple, so logical, so natural, so intelligent, so normal, so irresistible, so much in accordance with everything we practise in our everyday life chores, yet...
If it comes of applying it to religion - all of a sudden - this harmonious philosophy goes completely ape and, we become a billion member's herd of brainless idiots n' moronic twats who don't even consider of using this 'a must' application for our faith.
From riches to rags in no time, without slightest resistance ?!
MrJurekGG 1 year ago
@MrJurekGG I'm not sure I understand your comment.
LJonYT 1 year ago
@LJonYT
The charming, genuine simplicity of one of your statements made me smiling contently. Also, it made me wondering:
How is it humanly possible to forget of using this natural philosophy when dealing with our believes ?
Ale of a sudden – we go goats and Pygmees. We contact our god and hundred thousand years of human intelligence – disappeared. We simply forgot that when asking someone for anything – we must make sure that someone – exists , for fuck sake !!!! :-))
continues...
MrJurekGG 1 year ago
@JonTY
2. continuing:
Tons of volumes of deeply philosophical dissertations - pro and against religion - had been written upon something that, you have summarized in few, short sentences.
Bravo, Lisa.
rezpekt.
MrJurekGG 1 year ago
@MrJurekGG Thanks
LJonYT 1 year ago
great video hon!
danihc 1 year ago
@danihc Thanks!
LJonYT 1 year ago
Every argument for God ever made requires that at least one logical step be skipped.
audionad 1 year ago
@audionad Sounds about right.
LJonYT 1 year ago
@audionad Sadly I kinda disagree mostly because most of the time it is theist parroting words and phrases that they are unwilling to understand; so this is why the tend to break the logic of there arguments.
This is also why we see the same argument over and over; but if you directly compare then I think you notice the variance and shifts in the construction. They are not understanding they are "code" breaking, aka hacking.
opaldragon75 1 year ago
You trying to distract him by talking about sex? hehe
HonestDiscussioner 1 year ago
@HonestDiscussioner You know if I can work sex into the discussion of religion I will, heehee. But really I talked about marital sex and procreation. Christian are at least cool with that, right?!
LJonYT 1 year ago
It would be hilarious if the test could make you pregnant. XD
Antichryst666 1 year ago
@Antichryst666 People would certainly test judiciously!
LJonYT 1 year ago
I know im not pregnant without taking a test. XD
AbusiveAntitheist 1 year ago
@AbusiveAntitheist Really? Is it your lack of a uterus?
LJonYT 1 year ago
Good one.
AldusValor 1 year ago
@AldusValor Thanks!
LJonYT 1 year ago