Piper calls SBTS posh and dangerous 1999

[plcollins1987]

He's highly offensive with what he says. Funny how the truth offends and lies are comfortable. 

[prairiemark]

If you look down the comments see how some of the King James Advocates attack the other versions even when they are dead wrong.

[vico100]

Typical American seminary.

[sparwood8]

We are warned that flase teachers will creep in among us. do you think they will come n the scene with something like, "Hey t i no god?'

NO, they will be very convincing, very persuasive, easy to like...They will drop in a tidbit of leaven here, a doubt-producing comment there.

If you are spirit filled, you will get a sense that something is missing, with them.

I have had that happen a lot lately, and yet I am totally comfortable with a lot of the ones I mentioned earlier

[sparwood8]

NIV leaves out key scripture too. eg: 'Man shall not live by bread alone, BUT BY EVERY WORD OF GOD.' Upper case omitted in the NIV. Yes, we owe the 'scholars' a debt of gratitude. I avoid them like pit bulls on steroids. Many of them are worse. :p~~

David Hocking, Bill Bright, Chuck Swindoll, James Kennedy, John Mcarther = the exception

[prairiemark]

@sparwood8 Matthew 4:4 It is written: Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God. (From the NIV)

[sparwood8]

@prairiemark SEE? We are already arguing. OK you are right... I will give you that. It was ANOTHER translation that omitted the whole verse. NIV not a good translation though. Not even close...

[prairiemark]

@sparwood8 Don't you owe an apology to the translation team and to those who support the accuracy for falsely slandering them?

[sparwood8]

@prairiemark I owe no man any thing. Now get lost. You are P.I.T butt

[prairiemark]

@sparwood8 So typical of the King James Only crowd. They trash other versions based on false information and then get hostile when it is pointed out to them how wicked it is.

[sparwood8]

@prairiemark Do I need to send you a registered letter? I AM NOT INTERESTED IN ARGUING WITH YOU. It is not worth my time. You need to be born again and receive Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour. Do that instead of trying to pick a fight with me over the KJV. MAN, you are slow to get the point

[prairiemark]

@sparwood8 No need to argue.....Just commenting on your hostility for others to see. The attitude and hostility of the KJV Crowd. They cling to an irrational and impossible system and accuse others of not being born again. No need for you to keep sending me hostile posts....just relax. Take a break for Utube. Read a book and learn something...study a little Bible introduction perhaps. Perhaps a book on the transmission of Biblical texts. You are not the center of the universe.

[sparwood8]

@prairiemark I never said I 'cling to a system' Why can't you understand that I simp[ly prefer the KJV? WHy is that so hard for you?? I have used the NASV, and the New Eng versions and have no huge quarrell with them.

I don't know why thi shas to be an issue with ANYONE

[sparwood8]

Trust not in man-made insitutions, but trust in the Lord. Oh, how many of you have been at a bible study where maybe 3 hav ethe NIV, 3 have the NASV, and 2 have the KJV?? I tell you, you can lose track of the verse they are on.

[prairiemark]

@sparwood8 Having different translations can add a lot to a Bible study. And....it streers away from the false belief that one translation is head and shoulders above another.

[sparwood8]

@prairiemark Having different translations can destroy a bible study. EG: In the NIV there are whole verses omitted. I don't believe these 'new discoveries' Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.  . . . NIV leaves out ' but by every word of God. '

[prairiemark]

@sparwood8 I guess it depends on if you want and honest Bible study that recognizes the difficulties in translation and interpretation. If you have a dishonest Bible study that says you have a perfect translation and every work in Hebrew,Greek or Aramaic has an exact English eqivalent, then by all means have only one translation. The question is.....should Christians be honest in their study of Gods Word?

[prairiemark]

@sparwood8 Well I guess I have never been in a Bible Study where only one translation is present. Usually we compare the verses and get an overall view of what the best translators say the meaning is.  If you want to deceive those who study Gods word....tell them that each Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic word has an exact equivalent word in English and that word is found in the KJV. The question is....do we want to deceive people who are seeking to know Gods will?

[sparwood8]

@prairiemark I never said that. I said simply, that I prefer the KJV. You have a problem with that, you need to get out more

[prairiemark]

@sparwood8 As I read your posts, it isnt just that you prefer the KJV personally...(I like it too)....it is also that you think everyone should use it as well. Then you publically trash the NIV without knowing what you are talking about it.....Many of the translations have footnotes that discuss the texual problems and reasons for different wording.....(the oldest and best texts omit these words). Notes like that help us understand how the Bible comes to us.

[sparwood8]

@prairiemark You like to lecture people. You got the wrong guy here. I do know what I am talking about and the NIV is a poor translation. It has been SOLD to us... Anyhow, this convo has no future, as you seem to know everything

[prairiemark]

@sparw I am not impressed with what I have seen so far.....Bible studies should only have KJV present since multiply translations spoil them.....NIV leaves out "whole verses"......Trashing the NIV for leaving out parts of Mathew 4:4 when it doesn't. I sure don't know everything but I can see you are out in left field and need to learn a bit more before you present yourself as a Bible scholar.

[sparwood8]

@prairiemark One more time: this convo has no future, as you seem to know everything

[sparwood8]

Piper actually didn't say anything here; just powerful delivery. Think about it

[jgrig2]

There was a lesson, however he could have said it in about 2 sentenses.

[AsTheDeer]

You're right. Because people kept laughing. He told them they were in danger and then encouraged them to stay. And then everyone left happier than they came. Makes me think of how Paul Washer silences the youth convention in that famous message: "I don't know why you're clapping, I'm talking about YOU".

[sparwood8]

1 Corinthians 1:11-13 (King James Version) For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

[sparwood8]

One of the best 'teachers' I have ever met is a Swedish fellow who has a grade 12 education. He has studied the bible in this manner for over 50 years. He is a walking Commentary himself.

..and he puts the 'superstars' to total shame, and he has won more people to Christ than he can count

[southarkrazorback]

i think some of you are missing the point..piper definatley supports this seminary and he is saying that we shouldnt get used to being comfortable cause if we do, we will not want to suffer for Christ..he is saying be careful..thats all, he has a good point...the folks at sbts love piper..this was when he spoke in their chapel..

[AustinD88]

So John Piper has a problem with Southern Baptists?

[jgrig2]

Piper is a good friend with Mohler. The point of what he is doing is that he is a preacher preach to future preachers. The real world is not like seminary.

[keisky3]

I used to live in Minneapolis and went to Piper's Bethlehem Baptist church. Now I am studying in SBTS. Honestly speaking, I miss Bethlehem Baptist church more than all lectures I have in SBTS.

[sparwood8]

I dunno if this is good counsel or not: Here is what I would do:

Quit SBTS. Invest in a Good KJV Study bbile, a decent commentary, a Lexicon, a concordance... and then ask the Holy Spirit to teach me, and reveal God's truth to me. No man need even think of being my teacher, unless invited.

God is true, every man is a liar.

[keisky3]

But I do not think that KJV is the best translation. Afterall, the Southern is the best school among others. It is just Bethlehem is a great church. Besides, Piper supports this school as the best. That is why I am studying here. * The fruits of the Holy Spirit includes self-control. Maybe we all want to control what we say about others. Speak the truth in "love" in reverance to our Lord.

[keisky3]

I do agree with Piper that the Southern should promote the real willingness to suffer material poverty, just as Christ "emptied" Himself in humility (Phil 2). I believe that most seminary students here are very poor, but this school are becoming too fancy with a new giftshops, etc. I do not understand why we (with Boyce college) should be "ranked" with secular universities on a materialistic standard....

[sparwood8]

I like Piper. You need not agree with me re: KJV. You will still make in into heaven with your NAXV ;)

This debate is so old, even the keyboard is getting moldy. I'd rather study the Bible for all it's worth, than this one vs that one, vs Hort & Wescott, the Vatican, etc It gets boring, actually. Intellectualism grieves the Holy Spirit, because it is man's wisdom exalting tiself against someone else's theory.

I know you get it

[sparwood8]

KJV was good for over 300 years. Now we have over 200 'new' translations. what have they done for us?

the 'experts say' "Well, the language has changed. Sure has; today we hear the 'f' 's' 'b' words on t.v. and radio quite freely and often during prime time.

Yep, the language has changed. So have we. As for what we say about others; if ne is a false teacher, expose them. (Not calling Piper anything)

Harvard is one of the best schools too, look at what THEY are NOW teaching.

[mariuspieter]

@sparwood8 I would suggest that you do some research on the translations and why they are different, rather than ranting on about things you have no idea about. Ever heard of the dead sea scrolls???

[sparwood8]

@mariuspieter U = know it all. Wanna be expert. U Tube pharisee. Go away

[mariuspieter]

@sparwood8 You make a lot of conclusions based on very little truth

[sparwood8]

@mariuspieter I perceive that you have head knowledge, but the Love of God is not in you. You are 'religous,' a well without water. Good day, sir/ma'am

[mariuspieter]

@sparwood8 Well, how would you know that it is true, you don't know me and we have never met before, and we have clearly not spoken about a lot of things considering our faith which would lead you to such a conclusion, what I can say for sure is that you judge me without cause and that you don't really care what the bible says about judgment based on your conclusions that you make, you would do well to read Matt 7 again and 2 Tim 3 :16 will aid you as well, in fact read the whole chapter.

[mariuspieter]

@sparwood8 From your attitude on this post, what conclusions are there to be drawn from your behavior?, Prove 12:15 should be a good start, you will do well to listen to the truth first and then form your conclusions. If you have love for God and others you will obey his commandments (Joh 14:21, 15:10), one of those commandments is not to judge when you don't even know the facts, or the person.

[mariuspieter]

@sparwood8 Just curious who do think translated the the bible from Hebrew/Greek into KJV english?

[jesusfreakrkg]

KJV = inaccurate.

ESV & NASB are the way to go.

NKJV... meh.

[sparwood8]

I have heard this all befor, amigo. I am sticking with what works for me. ESV is highly endorsed by lots of scholars. More important though... how many have we shared the gospel with in the past ten days? (Time is running short) To sum it up: I have read the 23rd Psalm in many different translations, KJV just

....sounds more like God, to me :)

God bless

[prairiemark]

@sparwood8 If you use a KJV only you are are following an extrabiblical tradition because the Bible doesnt say which version to use. If you choose a commentary you are choosing a tradition.....i.e. the views passed down from the persons who wrote the commentary. There is nothing wrong with following tradition if it is a Biblical traditon. But we need to recognize a lot of what anabaptists do and believe is formed by tradition rather than independent Bible study.

[sparwood8]

@prairiemark I just prefer the KJV. Keep it simple, K?

[sparwood8]

God bless your efforts too. Just pray for wisdom, because you could have a false teacher in there somewhere. they are disguised as lambs. They are found in the most unsuspecting places.

etc

[brotherRonnie]

He didn't even mention the apostate doctrine and the "just pray this simple prayer" theology that the SBC is now allowing in it's pulpits. A recent study suggests that the longer a man is in a SBTS, the less he believes the bible is the Word of God.

The SBC (slowly becoming catholic) needs reform.

[tbone4ou]

brotherRonnie, what professors at SBTS teach that all you have to do is "pray a simple prayer"? And what recent study suggests that the longer a man in at SBTS, the less he believes that the bible is the Word of God?

[brotherRonnie]

SB preachers are preaching this from the pulpits. Do you want to go to heaven, say this simple prayer. No repentence, so conviction, just repeat these words. It's like a magic formula for gaining salvation. As for the study, Google it. I found the study online. It was a baptist website.

[jgrig2]

The SBC is the largest denomination in the USA outside of the Catholic Church and when of its principles is the sovereignity of the Local Church. There is nothing in the baptist faith and articles that affirms that.  It's just tradition

[jgrig2]

give examples. Dr. MOhler is a sbc preacher and he sure does not. Dr. Russel moore is a teacher and he does it (and he's an arminian)

[sparwood8]

Totally agree. the devil is a clever one.

[yougonnamind]

Graceguitars, I don't Particularly care if you believe me or not. That is a real Christian attitude you have insulting people on a message board, way to spread Gods love. I assumed you were a Christian by your name Graceguitars but I guess I should not assume!

[GraceGuitars]

I guess my smiley face didn't work. Just because I'm a Christian doesn't mean I don't care about testimony. Don't give people fodder for criticism by using atrocious English. Now if you're an English language learner and not a native English speaker, my apologies; but if you are a native English speaker, then no apology. I must say, by the look of your second message, you've improved greatly :-) I was also having a little fun with you ;-) Lighten up some.

[jgrig2]

Don't forget native english speakers who have been living in a non-english speaking environment for years and havnt't used it in a while to write many formal discertations.

[GraceGuitars]

youngonnamind, You know, I guess I was being somewhat of a jerk and grammar-snob. I know I can't take it back now, but I'm sorry for being such an idiot. You said you attended SBTS? Did you get a degree from them? Which degree?

[hoggdawn]

Piper speaks truth. However, let it be known that Piper's church is pretty swanky, too. But at least it is in the heart of the city, praise God! And Piper lives a fairly non-materialistic lifestyle, which, in my book, give him a lot of credibility.

[yougonnamind]

when I attended southern and worked as a electrian I seen the bad shape of the school. that chapel there are parts that were held together by duct tape, just because it is claean does not make it posh

[GraceGuitars]

We might believe you had you used proper grammar and spelling -- not "a electrian," "I seen," "that chapel there are" (fragment) "tape,just" (comma splice), or "claean." :-)

[WhiteHorseInn]

the only thing i want to add to this, without reference to the argument itself, is that

we MUST not pit paul against jesus. so many people want to act as though paul is less authoritative than christ. Hellllooo--the bible is inspired by God. so its ALL equally authoritative. otherwise, cut out 3/4 of your new testament. --Pastor T.W.

[McIntyreBible]

How true you are brother Piper!

And I do not think it would be wrong to say that, the majority of those who attend these sort of luxurious seminaries will probably never have any contact with,and will probably never know how to relate to those who are financially and educationally destitude. They are unfortunately being bred to minister solely to the well-to-do. How sad! How sad!

[IaintNoGood]

If there is any Christian out there who wants to help me understand why Jesus personally never made a caveat to his teachers/preachers/messangers in regards to wealth and making a living/profit from his word, please contact me. I would love to discuss your ideas and or proof that this caveat took place.

[GraceGuitars]

Of course wealth is not bad - it is just dangerous if you don't view it in proper perspective. "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also" (Jesus Christ, Matthew 6:19-21). Sounds like a caveat to me! Also, USING His Word for gain is sin

[IaintNoGood]

The proper perspective to those who follow the prosperity doctrine is, as lonog as you say you love god, make all the money you want and screw the homeless, the hungry, the widow, the orphan, the sojourner, etc.. You obviously have no clue what Mt 6 is talking about or what Jesus's main message was in general. Typical Christian.

[GraceGuitars]

Umm, ok, I'm not sure why you think I'm a "health, wealth, and prosperity" "Christian," especially after I just repudiated that mindset in my comment, but I can assure you that I find such philosophy reprehensible. One would have to be pretty stupid not to understand the plain meaning of Jesus' words in Mt. 6. I don't understand you. Your original comment sounded like you were for health, wealth, and prosperity; now you sound like your against it (which is good) - make up your mind.

[IaintNoGood]

There is nothing in my original message which suggests I support the prosperity message or believe that making money off of the gospel, is OK. As for you claiming you refuted such doctrine, you start out saying, "Of course wealth is not bad it is just dangerous if you don't view it in proper perspective." My follow comment to you was based on that. Pastors, preachers, etc., start out their prosperity message with Mt 6 to come across as though are not greedy and they are keeping it in perspective

[GraceGuitars]

Then why were you challenging Christians to prove Jesus was against it? Are you insinuating He was for it? Judging Jesus or the written Word of God by the lives of *alleged* Christians is not what I'm all about. I'm concerned with what the Bible actually teaches. You are right to be disgusted by the hypocrisy or prosperity teachers. Remember, it's the love of money that's evil, not the money itself. The kind of people you refer to love their wealth more than Christ.

[IaintNoGood]

There you go again, you put the caveat in there that as long as you do not love the money, it is OK. Well I posit that if you have more than what you need to survive, you obviously love money. Jesus road a donkey when he could have had the the finest chariot in the land. Christians today drive gas guzzlers, have vacation homes, adorn themselves in prescious stones and metals, wear fine clothes, own X-boxes, snowmobiles, etc.. It is disgusting.

[IaintNoGood]

Christianity Today International, 2003. So, where does our church money go? As church fund-raising gets more challenging even though church members grow more prosperous, this is the right question to ask, and this 62-page survey of church budgets gives us the statistical breakdown. Conducted in 1999, this survey of U.S. pastors finds that most churches spend most money on staff compensation ($118,601 from an average budget of $292,790).

[IaintNoGood]

This is followed by facilities ($54,194), missions ($45,259), church programs ($24,675), administration and supplies ($17,853), denominational contributions and fees ($11,539) and miscellaneous ($25,430). Organized religion has become a multi billion dollar a yr, tax free industry. It disgusts me and is complete ignorance when people claim the church does so much for the needy. America has over 45 mill unisured, over 25 mill go to bed hungry nighly, over 20 mill homeless veterans in any given

[IaintNoGood]

month and as I stated that is JUST veterans of our armed services. Add on mentally and emotionally unstable citizens, the down trodden, etc., and the number sky rickets. Then there are the orphans. The list goes on as to where these monies could go. But noooooo, Christians need to keep up with the Joneses. They need a Escalade, a flat screen TV, a riding lawnmower, that gold necklace oor diamond ring. It is pathetic and disturbing.

[IaintNoGood]

Another great ruse is the overseas missions. Like people in Australia REALLY need Americans to sit on their gorgeous beaches talking about Jesus. Literally hundreds of millions is spent each year on people going to beatufiful and exotic locations so they can "preach the word". Meanwhile there is not a place on earth that has never heard this message before OR which does not have its own Christians. Yet Christians continue to blow their money on these ridiculously expensive trips. Sickening

[GraceGuitars]

I'm not sure why you are lashing out at me, as we seem to agree on everything (minus your view of world missions - there are MANY unreached people groups - and most of the missionaries I know live very frugal lives). You have many legitimate concerns that I share as well, but be careful how cynical you get. Forgive me for saying this, but it is almost as if you are determined to find fault with everything I say, even when I agree with you! Just take a deep breath and relax. I'm on your side.

[IaintNoGood]

For the record, I am not lashing out at you. My blood pressure is fine and my heartbeat normal. I would love to find out which areas of the world however, have NEVER heard the gospel, especially since you claim there are MANY. As for my cynicism, there is nothing wrong with it nor is it misguided or out of line. Lastly, I only find fault with the fact that you keep making excuses for those who do have lots of money. You keep saying as long as they do not love their money, it is OK to amass it

[GraceGuitars]

Just google "unreached people groups." One great site is Joshua Project. Now, you are not being intellectually honest with me here. I have made no excuses for greedy people. And, by the way, I have been referencing the Bible in my comments, so your problem is with Scripture, not me. People who don't love their money can be wealthy - but, check this, they use it for the glory of God (for missions, christian schools, the poor, the abused, etc. etc.), rather than lavish things on themselves.

[IaintNoGood]

I responded to you in private message. If you want to continue this I prefer to do it in email. It is more conducive to dialogue than a 500 character limit. As for my intellectual dishonesty, I am not the one who made the caveat for wealth, you did. In at least two posts YOU said it is OK to be wealthy as long as you do not love money. This is EXACTLY how prosperity teachers start out their sermons. I am the one who said that if you have money and claim to be a Christian or

[IaintNoGood]

who is a leader in Christianity, that you had better not be lavishing it on yourself. So please, keep it in context and YOU be intellectually honest and stop worrying about being right. You think you are speaking to someone who is ignorant or inexperienced. For the record, I was a Christian for about 35 yrs. I was also a pastor, evangelist and missionary. I also taught the bible in Hebrew and Greek, Manners and Customs, Textual Criticism and Christian Apologetics, not to mention

[IaintNoGood]

other pertinent subjects. I never once took a dime for my, "work for god", and told those who did want to give me money, to find a charity and give it to them. I worked for my money and my needs just as Jesus and Paul did. Lastly, just because there are countries which do not allow for evangelism, does not mean they have never heard the Gospel. It is a very dishonest and ignorant assertion, especially when most of them are Muslim who DO use the bible in their faith, as they are a Abrahamic.

[GraceGuitars]

Actually, I'd rather not respond to your PM or any more of your messages. I have already clearly stated my case above, and I don't know what else to tell you. I just wish you wouldn't put words in my mouth. Also not sure what your accolades you list have to do with the topic at hand. Many Christian workers are compensated for their service BY EMPLOYERS WHO CAN EASILY DO SO, so they can devote their full time to ministry. There is a time and place for everything - tentmakers and "professionals"

[GraceGuitars]

Also, I won't be returning to this comment stream any more, so keep that in mind if you respond here.

[IaintNoGood]

How sad to live in such fear. You engage me, I call you out on your BS, then you run away with your tail between your legs.

[hoggdawn]

Hold it right there, buster! I work for an airline, and Christians traveling en masse to "minister" makes millions of dollars for us! Every summer, for example, church groups from Minnesota travel down south to "minister" and, wouldn't you know it, southern groups do the "ministry" thing up north! Most of the time it is painting, or VBS, or something. There is, of course, no way that these intrepid "ministers" would do mundane ministry in their own community. How sad!

[IaintNoGood]

Ummmm, OK? Not sure what your point was but godspeed while you are in the air. The reason I say that is, once these fundy Christians disprove the Theory of Evolution, they are coming after the Theory of Flight and the Theory of Gravity. My only hope is, they fail with evolution because I am not looking forward to planes dropping from the skies and atheists floating into outer space. It would be like the anti rapture. *snicker* Goddamn you guys are so much fun to talk to.

[IaintNoGood]

Lou...I have already admitted, or perhaps implied, that yes you can rationalize and justify making a living off of the gospels if you include books outside of the gospels. I know this. What you are not addressing and what you continue to deflect is, jesus himself never changed this doctrine, Paul did by "supposedly" hearing from the holy spirit.

[IaintNoGood]

Lou...Now before you continue assuming I am ignorant and unlearned on the bible, the council of Nicaea, the history of Paul, etc, perhaps you should read some history on Paul's possible motivation for conversion. If you do not know what I am talking about, then it proves not my ignorance but your own.

[IaintNoGood]

Lou...I do not expect you to be intellectually honest on this subject because you have become accustomed to luxury and complacency. You need to have faith in Paul over the gospels, ie the spoken word of christ, because it validates your lifestyle. If you cannot at least admit you can see my point, then like I said, you are not able or willing to be intellectually honest.

[IaintNoGood]

For the record, the council of Nicaea used the Paulinian books as well as the others, because it gave validity to the church and it gives the church the power it craved. For one to fully appreciate this, one must read the Gospels and books which were not allowed in the bible. Oddly enough, those books were more in line with the 4 gospels than are Paul's.

[ReformedLou]

I'm afraid your "record" is tainted beyond my ability to remedy. You are evidently a would-be Gnostic, divorced from any historical and biblical perspective. Anyone who HAS read these late 2nd century "gospels" can see that they're contrary to the quaternion. Meanwhile, you conveniently ingnore your "good Luke gospel/bad Luke book of Acts" inconsistency; you flip-flop on Nicea's confirmation of the canonicity of the Pauline epistles; and what on earth is a "bible literist"?

[ReformedLou]

What to say...Paul's epistles, every one of them, were whole-heartedly accepted by the ancient church and by the Nicene council. Paul was personally called by the risen Christ, and spoke infallibly in the letters. Would you pick and choose verses from "Luke's gospel", or the Acts, since Luke was under Paul? Please review your understanding of the Nicene council; what you've said is categorically false.

[ReformedLou]

I would think Pauline reasoning were a good thing, as he was an apostle, and often knew wealth (Phl 4:12). He also exhorts Timothy to name elders who are hospitable (household assumed, 1Tim 3:2). Was Paul wrong to desire men with their own homes be elders, or are you wrongly universalizing the disciples' Galilean ministry?

[IaintNoGood]

Lou...once again you are trying to play down the spoken and supposed historically accurate word of christ. Paulinian doctrine is not the same as the Gospels. This is merely the claims of the christian extremist, not the learned. The council of Nicaea did not include these books and letters of Paul and the few others because they were scripturally consistent. Come on now, if you want to have intellectual discourse I am game but if you want to rewrite history, then you are on your own.

[IaintNoGood]

Lou...the main problem with using Paul to prove your point is, Paul never spoke to Jesus. There is no historical evidence outside of the bible that Paul's claims were true in the first place. It takes a greater leap of faith to believe Paul, than it does to believe in the Gospels.

[ReformedLou]

"It takes a greater leap of faith to believe Paul than it does to believe in the Gospels". It requires the same faith, Iaint. The author of the Gospel According to Luke is the same as that of the Acts of the Apostles, which recounts Christ's speaking directly to Saul/Paul. His name was Paul because Christ renamed him. If you call Luke a liar in Acts, what do you do with him in the Gospel?

[IaintNoGood]

You are on the fringes of christianity and my taking this discussion any further would be ridiculous. However, reread my posts and my points regarding the gospels. I love how you extremists are so quick to embrace Paul more so than you are your own savior. My personal belief is, you do it so you can deflect hard issues like the ones I introduced on this thread.

[IaintNoGood]

Lou...you have missed the point entirely and onc again deflected from the main point. I guess I now know you are a bible literist.

[ReformedLou]

Let's discuss your "main point". Christ sent the disciples out to minister, eating and lodging w/what was given, yet Peter had a house (Mt 8:14). They were on a mission with these strictures in place FOR that mission. Don't reduce ad absurdum that all Christians must always lodge with strangers or live the fields. Jesus also sent them two-by-two, yet later, they're often going one at a time (see Acts 8 and on), all under the guidance of the Spirit. Does the Spirit contradict the Son?

[IaintNoGood]

Lou...you keep refering to words not spoken by jesus in the gospels. Jesus reitterated many times things he thought were important such as how to spread his message, find eternal life, taking care of the downtrodden, etc. I find it curious he never ever changed his philosophy on wealth and material possesion in the gospels.

[IaintNoGood]

Lou...you can keep using books outside of the gospels but it will not prove me wrong it only validates my point. If it were so important, if jesus thought that times would change or did change and his teachers/preachers/ etc could wear sandals, two tunics and carry a purse, why did he not make that caveat? You are asking for faith to increase by saying he did so through the mouth of another, ie Paul.

[IaintNoGood]

Furthermore, if you are going to take on the huge responsibility of representing someone like the person represented in the Gospels, you had better not let something like materialism and comfort distract you from his message. For those who want to use their doctrinal dogma to attempt to trump my point, I can only refer to what is written, not assumptions or Paulinian rationalizations.

[ReformedLou]

Iaint, since we both know scripture, let me point out that John Piper is an elder, not an apostle, and that elders were good, established men with households. They weren't held to a worldwide average income test, but to be good stewards, with no love for fithy lucre. The New Testament picture of an elder fits with a modestly incomed and housed family of 7.

[IaintNoGood]

Lou Lou Lou...again you only offered up lofty rhetoric and no spoken word of christ to contradict the incredible relevance of the meaning in those verses. Jesus never mentioned elders. I know you want people to believe it is implied somewhere, but I am quite sure that when it comes to matters such as this, he would have not only made reference to it once, but several times as he does the meatier and weightier messages.

[IaintNoGood]

You know Lou, you sound like you are more willing to defend Pastor Piper and your worship of him, over your own savior. When you say that Jesus never held anyone up to worldwide average income tests, you are playing wordsmith with me. Of course he never used that exact venacluar but he most certainly did set a standard and you continually try and twist and tweak the reality of that, to fit your own standard.

[IaintNoGood]

OK, I guess I will be a little pompous. Reference: Mt 10:9, Mk 6:8, Lk 10:4, Lk 22:35. Please explain how this incredible requirement, given to bear witness as to the provision of god to provide just enough to survive and the happiness that is within that trust "he" will provide, changed without any reference? The spiritual meaning in these verses is deep and I cannot believe if Jesus changed his mind, that it would not have been mentioned in his own words.

[IaintNoGood]

Lou...I think you miss the point entirely. When Jesus sent the apostles out to spread his message, he gave very specific qualifications for the job. Nowhere in the Gospels did he change those specifications. I do not need to be pompous and quote scripture to you, you know the verses I am talking about. So, with that in mind, Pastor Piper is living in what the Gospels would consider outside his means.

[ReformedLou]

It was a half-joke, but his point was serious, and is borne out in all of his teaching concerning possessions.

[ulysses775]

If you can't tell from the laughter in the background, Piper was joking. Besides, he apparently never stayed in Fuller apartments - far from luxury.

[ReformedLou]

An important point. "Give me neither poverty nor riches" - Proverbs 30:8.

[IaintNoGood]

Poverty and riches are subjective terms but Mr. Piper would be considered materially wealthy by most of the world and according to the Gospels, by Jesus H Christ himself. Remember, wear no sandals when you go out to spread my message, take no purse and wear only one tunic. Jesus said these things for a reason, a reason Mr. Piper has chosen to ignore.

[ReformedLou]

Pastor Piper is not a wealthy man. He foregoes royalties, lives on a modest salary (about 50K), and Desiring God ministries gives away many free/discounted materials. Now what was the reason our Lord gave for the purse/food/tunic etc. strictures, Iaint? Wasn't it that the apostles shouldn't profit unduly from the ministry, nevertheless taking what was due their labor? I think Pastor John does just that. May God bless you.

[IaintNoGood]

Lou...though I appreciate the sentiment in your words and the valilant effort to make Pastor Piper out to be a saint, you did not in any way shape or form, rebutt my point. The fact is, Pastor Piper, by the standards of the majority of the world population, lives in luxury. And this is contrary to Jesus' message, no matter how perty your words are.

[GraceGuitars]

Lou, thanks for your reasoned response to Iaint's atrocious hermeneutics. If he lived out his own philosophy of "bare bones" living, he wouldn't pay for Internet access. He also wouldn't have a computer to type on. In fact, he'd have just some sandals, a staff, and a tunic (just one, now!). Probably would have literally gouged out his eye too (Mt. 5:29). I've met Piper and have read him and listened to many of his sermons. Truly one of the most humble, biblically faithful pastors in America.

[ReformedLou]

Thanks, GG. May God bless you in your walk with Him.