Game Geeks #83 Pathfinder RPG Beta Playtest by Paizo

[TheOnlyAttrition]

i like both 4e and pathfinder. both are good in their own right. 4e is better for new players to tabletop games as an intro game. pathfinder is great. i hated the old dnd spell systems where, if a Wizard runs out of spells, hes just the back up crossbowman. wheres the fun int that? wizard should cast spells all the time. not cast 6 or 7 then rely on a crossbow. thats bs. i like how 4e really made the distinction betwee Sorcerers and wizards; now they feel like different classes.

[LyraGrenovitch]

I love this "version" of D&D, I've played a sorcerer, Cross-class rogue from Pathfinder, and from D&D 3.5 I've played a monk, bard, paladin, Mystic thurge, Wizard. And a Cleric from 4.0, and I would say I really love it, it's more D&D than 4.0 and I'm so glad that my dm found this book!

Thankyou to the writters of Pathfinder, and Thank you to my DM Simon!!!

[EltonJThe]

Uhm, it's "Pie Dough."

[Tiars666tiamat]

Pathfinder RPG video game ala Neverwinter Nights... *drooling*

[Finlandcitizen]

@Tiars666tiamat

My god that would be so aw... *drool*.

[Thanks4thelesson]

@aokguy1234 I like how easy it is to shit on things on the internet and never actually have to admit to having no idea what I'm talking about. I also like it that I can say things that don't make much sense. I also like it that you are a retard and it is quite easy to make fun of you.

[devD1967]

WOW now that was quite a tirade "aok". Try to polish up on your personal skills that might help you some.

[Hiro2099]

I'm not sure here is this a board game, a book, or a video game? I heard beta test but not sure you can beta test a book or a board game.

[Nephatrine]

It's a tabletop roleplaying game, not a board game. This is a rule book for it.

In what way is a beta test for a tabletop or board game any different than one for a video or computer game? You get beta version. Play it. Give feedback. Developer fixes shit.

[aziayman]

whats dnd like i wanna know so that if i get it ill enjoy it

[Smalley123]

Its a great game and a classic, only problem with DnD compared to some of the "Indie" rpg's out there is that it it very rules heavy theres allot of stuff you have to learn.

[EltonJThe]

@Smalley123 Yesw, there is a lot of rules to learn.

[ThekingofTerrors]

Pathfinder is a great game. The classes have been balanced much much better than in 3.5. And unlike normal D&D you don't have to buy five books to get started, you even get the basic prestige classes in the same book.

I'm currently playing a Undead bloodlined Eldritch Knight, It's freaking awesome.

[DaveInOCNJ]

I've heard of Pathfinder, but never played it. I was hoping for a little more from this review. It seemed to focus alot of Magic use, but offered nothing on combat. Being a Martial player of 4e, I would've liked to hear what Pathfinder combat is like.

[SamyueruHikage]

Well, the beta is free to download, so you could download that, take a read, run a quick game for your friends and see what everyone thinks. But it's all about what your group things.

[Phloid82]

4th Edition Sucks! Long live Pathfinder!

[SamyueruHikage]

4th and Pathfinder are DIFFERENT games. One is not strictly better than the other, they're just very different.

[gld1010]

It is good that Hasbro developed 4e to keep the industry dynamic. I am unhappy that they let their 30 year die hard fans down. If you enjoy playing MMOs, new to RPGs, water down rules, DMs that do not know how to control rowdy players, and you like really good art work, 4e is for you. If you want to ROLE PLAY, Pathfinder or DnD 3.5 is for you. I find Pathfinder to be an improvement in 3.5 and makes us 30 year (28 for me) veterans happy. And Pathfinder has decent artwork too... ;)

[genomyoshida]

I agree with you. I will always say 4e is good for some people, just do not seem like DnD to me. More like a MMORPG - which the lovers of the game hate hearing but honestly that is what it is. They have changed it from a rpg to something more akin to a simulation game ala Warhammer. Not that there is anything wrong with that when it comes to some people, just not my cup of tea when the role play is roll play. Horrible system for anything beside combat - hack and slasher game to the nines.

[palanis]

Fourth ed, what many people forget is that it was designed to be part of the now cancelled online initiative. Whats frustrating is the drizzling of character classes and monsters over several books. What a way to make more money....

[anthraxsnax]

lol i not only played 4e the day the books came out, but i actually STOPPED playing 3.5 months before 4e release after the bits and peices i had heard of 4e. we own many 3.5 books and played it alot, but it's really a game for rule nazi's and powergamers.

a.) if you want to do something, there is a rule for it... sound confining? it is! what a departure from the original "try anything" flexibility of the game... b.) with more and more supplements characters just got even more broken

[anthraxsnax]

causing the monsters to get stronger, and force players to pour over books for hours to put a character together and make sure it was broken, regardless of how horrible the fluff behind the random class and feat choices, just to abuse some obscure rule and class feature combo...

and for those who say its like an MMO, when i get on an MMO i dont care what quest i'm doing... i just kill it and turn it in... i kill monsters to level up - not stop the gnoll priestess from finishing the ritual.

[darkcolmar]

as of today, 07/29/09, you can still download the free pdf. I just did.

[peregrin2]

Don't know why people are voting you down. OD&D/AD&D are very much different. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but new D&D and old D&D have very different design philosophies.

[tetsubo57]

No flames from me for the 4E comment brother.

Seeing as 4E isn't D&D at all.

[LyraGrenovitch]

I love this "version" of D&D, I've played a sorcerer, Cross-class rogue from Pathfinder, and from D&D 3.5 I've played a monk, bard, paladin, Mystic thurge, Wizard. And a Cleric from 4.0, and I would say I really love it, it's more D&D than 4.0 and I'm so glad that my dm found this book!

Thankyou to the writters of Pathfinder, and Thank you to my DM Simon!!!

[nutherefurlong]

Has the betatest been updated in a while, or is my old copy the same? Not too keen on registering with them again, as I forgot my login information ;) Anyone savvy enough with Pathfinder to tell me about the difference between it and 3.0? (or 3.5, if that's too much)

[cbeilby]

Beta has ended, as they've got to get everything finalized and edited for the release at Gencon.

[nutherefurlong]

Oh, but is the download also ended? If so, I must have lucked out because I downloaded it not too long ago.

[cbeilby]

It seems to still be available for download

[NaturalTwentyFilms]

Thanks for the excellent description. I have been wondering about Pathfinder for a while.

Cheers!

[Argamae]

Sorry, that's bullshit. Paizo did a good job and they honored D&D tradition - something that WotC has obviously stopped doing with 4E.

[SamyueruHikage]

Heh, you keep telling yourself that. WotC haven't stopped honouring (there's a "u" in that word by the way) anything. Unless by "D&D tradition" you mean "horribly broken spell casters and useless melee classes".

[toxicbob2000]

In American English, that's not a spelling error, adding the 'u' is.

[Andulvar]

And WoTC didn't? that's bull, and you just like 4th because your low IQ favors the "online" feel of the 4th Edition system

[SamyueruHikage]

Common troll is common. Come up with something you can actually support with evidence. 4th edition in no way feels like an "online game".

[Andulvar]

I guess you haven't read all the crap WotC has released for their system, I have, I've been sick of it since I got my "for print" copies of it two weeks before it came out

[SamyueruHikage]

They said they took inspiration from MMOs like WoW. They did not, nor have they ever, said that they "copied" WoW, or in any way tried to force an online game feel into 4e. Sorry, but apparently you're just misinterpreting statements in order to support your own flimsy claims.

[Andulvar]

Same with you, at will, once per encounter, once a day abilities are cool downs, healing surges are bandages, each creature has a type such as dragons being elites, need i say more? or is your low IQ equal to your age? People like you made me want to stop role playing cause they can't stop giving 4th such a good reputation when its crap.

[SamyueruHikage]

Again, misinterpretations made only to support your own flimsy claims. And it's ironic that you're making insults towards me based on my age, when you're the one throwing a temper tantrum because someone you've never met on the internet likes 4e, and refuses to be swayed from that stance by a common troll such as yourself.

[MorrowTHEjedi]

Actually, it does. Spend the night at the inn and you dont have any wounds anymore? Super-Slashing-Death-Sword-Att­acks? I played 4th edition for 1 year and in my opinion, they dumbed down the game to such an extent that it does have that MMORPG feel to it. But hey, if you like 4th ed, play it man, nobody says you cant. Just aint a roleplaying game; its a roll-playing game.

[SamyueruHikage]

A roll-playing game? As opposed to 3.X with it's CraPPer skills?

[MorrowTHEjedi]

Absolutely.The only skills you will find in 4th edition are combat-oriented skills. No need for crafts, perform or appraise in combat? Lets get rid of that.This is partly why I call this a roll-playing game.

I like the idea of having at wills, encounter powers, etc. because it allows everyone to pull a cool trick out of their hat. Still, after a while, it seems to me that those powers become a crutch that too many players will use to compensate for lack of creativity; they stop trying new stuff

[MorrowTHEjedi]

So in that regard, Pathfinder is going the right way with the combat manoeuver modifier which basically sets a mechanic for any stunt you might want to pull. A step in the right direction in my opinion.

[SamyueruHikage]

So your argument is that 4th ed has become a roll-playing game, by REMOVING roll-playing skills from the skill list? Wow. I can't argue with you any more. Your an idiot; you're only going to drag me down to your level, and then beat me with experience.

[MorrowTHEjedi]

If you compensate your lack of arguments with personal attacks, it shows a lot about your level of maturity. You have a poor attitude and obvious anger issues. You brought the skills in the discussion (which at this point clearly cannot be called an disussion anymore). My point is that by removing non-combat skills, the design is even more geared towards combat than other editions. Combat is part of DnD, but my preference is a system that takes into acount the non-combat elements as well.

[SamyueruHikage]

I can't argue against illogical points like, "By removing roll-playing skills, they've made 4e a roll-playing game". As an aside, your mini "psycho analysis" is laughable at best, and pathetc at worst. The bottom line is, 4th ed does take non-combat elements into account. If you choose to ignore them, that's fine, but that doesn't mean they aren't there.

[MorrowTHEjedi]

You clearly can't argue against logical points either.

I never stated 4th edition did not take non-combat skills into account (as an aside, anger and frustration leads to tunnel vision and selective reading).

I am saying that they are now focusing on combat more than in the past edition. This was done by not including mechanics to run certain skills that are more "flavour"-oriented such as appraise, perform and the like.

[MorrowTHEjedi]

Overall, 4th edition is not bad. It focuses more on combat than the previous edition. Most powers, talents, are geared towards combat (only some odd utility powers are actually helping with skills in non-combat situations for exemple). And in the end, a combat-centered game revolve more about rolling dices to hurt people than telling a story or playing a role. This is just not to my liking.

You really need to learn to agree to disagree with people. This makes social interactions way easier.

[SamyueruHikage]

Not true. I have no problem telling stories with 4e. D&D is, at its heart, a combat game. It always has been. You can still run other types of games as easily with 4th as you can with every other edition. If you choose not to, it's not a failing of the system.

[MorrowTHEjedi]

You can basically tell any kind of story with any kind of system. Still, you can choose the best tool for any given job. To drive a nail in a wall, you can use a hammer, the butt of a screwdriver or a dictionnary. I would take the hammer.

To me its the same; I feel more confortable telling stories with 3.75 (or White Wolf rules) than using 4th edition.

[SamyueruHikage]

Ok, that's fine. So how does you not being comfortable running a 4th edition game make it "combat centred" and a "rollplaying" game?

[Webhead123]

My 2 cents: If you generally like D&D 3.X but had a few quibbles with it, odds are good that you will probably like Pathfinder as it is closely married to the tropes of its predecessors. However, if you aren't a fan of d20 or 3.X, Pathfinder won't do much to change your mind. It is mostly just "more of the same". Paizo is a good company. However, I won't be buying/playing Pathfinder because I grew annoyed with 3.X and wanted something else. Pathfinder is D&D "evolution" not D&D "revolution".

[AngryDrake]

"Are you the descendant of Great Cthulhu?" <- LOL.

[CleverName99]

A LOT of 4e haters and Pathfinder fans point to all the 3.x material on their shelves as a reason to support Paizo's efforts.

This puzzles me after reading the playtest documents. The claim that Pathfinder is "compatible with all your old D&D stuff" is absurd. I just can't buy it after reading the docs. It makes the change between 3.0 and 3.5 look like mere window dressing.

So, I think that it should be 3.8562 than 3.75. ;)

[Mairkurion]

As someone who has run Pathfinder with 3.5 materials, I can tell you that the backwards compatibility is high. Conversion took very little time: the main thing you have to do is increase hit points and figure the Combat Maneuver Bonus for NPCs and monsters. You don't have to convert everything to make it highly playable (for example, converting 3.5 sorcerers into Pf sorcerers.) The claim is far from absurd.

[Argamae]

Actually, it is quite easily compatible. Of course you have to make adjustments but if you would not have to make them it wouldn't be Pathfinder - it would be 3.5. There is always conversion work when someone modifies the base rules.

[BrowncoatBoB]

Is the release of this game the reason why Paizo stopped doing Dragon and Dungeon magazines perhaps? Maybe WotC weren't happy with a little competition so close to home?

[Mairkurion]

Nope: Wizards pulled the magazines first and forced Paizo into competition with them.

[AngelSwordAF]

The cantrip and orison labels were there in 3.0 and 3.5. It's just not all that prevalent.

[Argamae]

Yes, but what Kurt forgot to mention is that in Pathfinder these 0-level spells, be they cantrips or orisons, can be cast at will. There is no limit to the number of times you can use them per day.

[jkantor267]

"Pay-zee-oh"?

[krim7]

I always thought it was "PIE-zo" I wonder which is correct.

[Ogma01]

Pretty sure it's as you think, krim7... "PIE-zo" (or "Py-zoh"), but don't quote me on that. It definitely ISN'T "pay-zee-oh"! :-)

[Mairkurion]

PIE-zoh is the correct pronunciation. Otherwise, good summary-review.

[acm4bass]

I haven't ventured forth to 4th ed. yet. I would like to see more about its non-rpg-ness. Intresting that pathfinder can produce a similar 3.5 game in a single 25 dollar book.

[lordmonfort]

Great Review Kurt...I just downloaded the PDF and I'm blown away by the quality.

Anyone know what the difference is between the softcover playtest edition and what the hardcover will have? Is it worth buying the softcover if it will be obsolete with the release of the hardcover?

I'm an old school Ad&d and 2nd Ed player and didint care too much for #rd or 3.5, but I'm actually thinking of purchasing this version. I have 4th Ed, but haven't played it yet.

[krim7]

The Hardcover release will be the final version, which will incorporate all the play test data from the Beta, so yes it will be different.

[lampdevil]

Thanks for the review! I've got a group of friends that have been really gung-ho about Pathfinder. This has given me a push to go check it out.

[BillionSix]

I like the idea of releasing a Beta playtest. It's more honest than some companies who release a game, wait for people to play, then say, "We'll fix things in the 2nd edition." Not that that system doesn't work. The best way to test a system is to get lots of people playing it. But this way is much more open an upfront about it.

[pete3great]

thanks kurt, will have to give that a try.

[Uzzy101]

Long time watcher, first time commenter. Very good review Kurt. I must say I was wondering if you'd get around to reviewing this!

I do like Paizo. They make some of the very best RPG products out there. Perhaps you could review some of their other products some time?

[Uzzy101]

Oh, and I just posted about this review on the Paizo forums. You might be getting some more, well deserved traffic! :)

[dv8nation]

I wish you'd said something about the skills since that was the part of character creation I hated most in 3 and 3.5. But I'm going to give the game a look. As much as I enjoy 4th I do miss some stuff from the older editions.

[db98647]

What i like most about pathfinder is that they cleaned up skills a lot.

Now you simply get ranks per level. No more splitting ranks on cross class skills, for that mater, no more cross class skills.

No more fiddling with x+ int (X4 at first level either. Instead, if its a class skill you get a +3 class bonus to checks with the skill if you put a rank in it.

This allows you to be good at a lot more skills than before. A major improvement.

[dtstrain]

4.0 to me is like playing a simpler version of an X-Box computer game. It made me realize for the first time, that DnD isn't actually a roleplaying game - and it really never was. It's a combat sim. Sure, you can roleplay between the combats and despite the rules, but I can also roleplay my Monopoly rich guy if I like - doesn't make Monopoly a roelplaying game. Ironic that the game that launched the RP concept isn't actually a roleplaying game.

[W4RW017]

Its really just it's history that classifies it as a roleplaying game.

[dtstrain]

From what I understood, the reason the races didn't equal out in their ability mods before, was that some abilities were more important/useful than others. I think there is a rationale for it in the section on creating your own races, possibly in the DMs guide. It seemed to make sense to me, but honestly I never 'analyzed' it.

[TacticusPrime]

I like the idea of giving races a net plus 2. It was lame that some were more negative and others more positive.  In 4.0 all the races have plus 2 in two of the abilities, which also works.

Personally I prefer the more potent 4.0 game, instead of the overly complex 3.5 game. But that's just me.

[obiboblo]

Keep up the great work

informing us

[ArthurLovat]

Hey Kurt,

Thanks for your great reviews! They're always very helpful and enjoyable! ^_^

[EliteOM3G4]

speaking of which, what's your opinion of 4e now that it has been out for several months?

[saphirekosmos]

I've personally ran a couple games with this and have to say I like it. From what I hear 4th ed id dumbed down to the point that it is more of a mini game than a rp. Also I'm 99% sure that the company name id pronounces "Pay-zoh" not "pay-zee-oh". Keep up the good work. ^_^

[Areopagus]

Wow, they will begin with a large fan base of angry 4ed haters. But still anyone that commented/reviewed/yelled that 4ed is crap and then buys this as an "improvement" on 3.x, is a hypocrite.

By the way I want to know about FFG's "Grimm" RPG. Maybe you could look into it and talk a little bit about it...

[ConayR]

Pathfinder is in fact an improvement over 3.5 more than 4.0 is. It's a real, well done *fix* of 3.5 and not a reset 4.0 is.

So if there are people out there who tried 4.0 out and they just don't like it (it's possible!) but they enjoy 3.5, this is a good option for them.

Paizo is known for a very good support for 3.5 and with some legal changes around 4.0, they came up with Pathfinder so they can make money the way they used to. I'd expect some HIGH quality add-ons for Pathfinder soon. :)

[SlyMcflyyyy]

YES YES YES