Pennsic 38 - Full Grappling -TuChux Tournament - Mixed Weapons

[silvermoonwolf19]

So let's say I want to challenge a Tu Chux. Let's say I want to get into fighting, but I look at the rules and restrictions in SCA combat and I feel turned off (this is coming from someone who -loves- the SCA and is devoted to really knowing my chosen period).

Let's also say I've never fought and I want to test myself. In addition to that, let's say I have a deep, deep well of fighting spirit (which I've been informed the Tu Chux are all about.)

What would happen?

[tsafa1]

@silvermoonwolf19 You go to a Tu Chux practice or to their camp at Pennsic and you tell them everything you just said here. I am pretty sure the Tu Chux will be happy to help you test yourself out. The Tu Chux rules are very hard to break... since they have none. Only rule is don't actually kill the other guy.

[silvermoonwolf19]

@tsafa1 Are you one of them?

In general, I've been told it's best to simply leave them alone. I must confess curiosity about them. Any information I find online (mostly at tribe.net) seems as if they want people to leave them alone if they don't "get it".

I just feel like I want to fight. I want combat. I want to test myself both naturally and with training. I'll fully admit that I feel like I've got something to prove.

I want to show people that a blue feather can fight.

[tsafa1]

@silvermoonwolf19 No I am not a Tu Chux. I have participated in a number of their T ornaments at Pennsic. They are composed of a number of separate tribes with slightly different personalities. They have their own philosophy on a variety of topics. If you like their ideas and want to play with them, that is fine. Just remember, when in Rome, do as a Roman.

[tsafa1]

@silvermoonwolf19 If you have not been trained in this sort of fighting, do not expect to do very well. Even if you are a fighter. For example, I have a friend who is a champion Muhi Tahi fighter, but can not touch me with sword and shield... even though I am not a great SCA fighter. It is simple a different from what he is trained to do. He could learn to fight with swords if he trained, but no one can just pick up a sword of the first time and do well with it.

[tsafa1]

@silvermoonwolf19 A sword is a weapon of the nobility. The nobility was the fighting class of medieval Europe. The Nobility trained from an early age in swordmanship and this gave them an advantage over the peasants they controlled. A sword in the hands of someone not trained in its use is completely useless as a weapon. A person can very well have a fighting spirit, but the hands and feet need to be trained to do certain things automatically without thinking.

[tsafa1]

@silvermoonwolf19 Overall, I recommend you go to the closest practice to your house and learn how to fight. You will get plenty of chance to test yourself in practice alone. On average, it takes two years of training once a week just to get semi-competent with a sword. It takes about 10 years to get good... just like any other martial art.

[noloferratus]

Actually it's quit possible to knock out an opponent with a sword blow even if he is wearing a full helm. WMA sparring rules fail to take into account the percussive effect of sword cuts mainly because they pull their shots and don't require blows to land particularly hard when they spar and so they fail to realize that people can be injured through armor by percussive effect. I have seen many real injuries to people through their armor caused by only rattan sticks.

[tsafa1]

@noloferratus period armor was a lot lighter then ours too. Our helmets weigh 7lbs to 9lbs so they can absorb the impact. Period nasal helms only weighted about 2lbs. They were good protection against glancing blows. They might also keep your head from getting sliced in half from a direct blow, but you would be knocked senseless. Their body armor was of a lighter gage too. Those men lived in their armor and sometimes marched for weeks. They had to make compromises in weight.

[buboetherat]

@noloferratus Having fought in the SCA for about ten years, the "real injuries" that I've seen amount to bruises. I've never seen anyone stunned to the point of unconsiousness or incapacity. Heat stroke or heat prostration is much more of a danger than any blow from a rattan stick. Yes, a sword can cut, but in my estimation, it's not as effective as the SCA assumptions expect.

[tsafa1]

@buboetherat See my other comments about the Mail Calibration standard where we are all assumed to be in mail with nasal helms regardless of what we are actually wearing. Most of us wear plate armor because mail is not safe against rattan. We also wear 8 lb helmets because period 2 lb helmets are not safe to get hit with rattan. I did try to fight in a 6 lb helmet once... and I saw some pretty stars.

[noloferratus]

@buboetherat If the period infanty helm weighed only about two pounds as Tsafa1 says then for sure I could easily knock out an opponent with even a single handed blow with a typical medieval broad sword. I once knocked out a man even with his eight pound helm on with a single handed rattan stick but I admit I used an Aikido "shomen-uchi" strike and not an SCA learned blow. One should realize however that cavalry armor was often much thicker.

[buboetherat]

How Unchivalrous and Barbaric!

I wish this were more widespread. I think that more of SCA "combat" should be more like this...less like the stereotypical and predictable hidebound contests determined more by rules-lawyering than by technique and skill....IMHO ;)

[tsafa1]

@buboetherat I have fought in a number of contests that were "no rules". 90% of the fighting end up being very SCA like with little grappling, just because it is a more sure way to kill someone. In the video I posted here I selectively put together only the grappling fights... because it is something different. The rest of the two hours of the tournament was combatants chose to kill each other with their weapons rather then engage in grappling.

[buboetherat]

@tsafa1 'm not sure of the relevance of your statement to the effect that most of the fights were resolved without resort to grappling. My point is that I would like to see it allowed more widely. As you and I both know, the practice is not allowed under standard SCA rules.I, too, have practiced greatsword in the SCA and I've been frustrated with my opponents being able to attack with impunity being protected by rules alone.

[tsafa1]

@buboetherat The reason I mention that 90% of the fight were resolved without grappling is because people often assume that if grappling was allowed people would naturally prefer to use it for some reason. That is not the case. Furthermore, when you are off you feet you are more vulnerable to a third party attack. On you feet, if you might see if your opponent friends are on the way and try to back up back into a safer position.

[buboetherat]

@tsafa1 Being a Systema practitioner...I disagree.

[tsafa1]

@buboetherat Have you fought melees? Where do you feel safer? Standing in a line formation or rolling around on the ground where you can just as easily be trampled to death even your people and horses. WMA and historic manuals only look at one side of fighting. They do not address fighting in a unit. That is the "Martial" aspect that is missing.

[buboetherat]

@tsafa1 I'm quite quite confident that I could be more effective were I able to kick, grapple, etc. The rules and equipment used produce distortions in the practice that begin to take it a very long way from a resonable approximation of combat. John Clemens writes about it in his book. Rattan is not a good steel bladed weapon simulator. It rebounds too much, has no flats or edge for "feulen", and is really too heavy in my experience.

[tsafa1]

@buboetherat Seach through my videos and you you find a series called Duel. I fight with STEEL BLUNTS and NO RULES. The techniques developed with the rattan in the SCA transferred very well. I fight with steel blunts and and full grappling every chance I get.

In the video I mentioned, The Duel, my opponent was taken more by surprise of the power of my shots and speed of my combinations then I was that the low legs where a target and that grappling was allowed.

[buboetherat]

@tsafa1 Not a historical combination of weapons. Plus, you're using what looks like an aluminum shield. Furthermore, exactly what does a set of duels between one set of opponents with mis-matched weapons proved. Also, the one time that I saw grappling, you lost.

[tsafa1]

@buboetherat There are plenty of people in the SCA that do well with two handed weapons against shields. The difference is because they train against them. Look at the video again. Look at the comments. I hit him two times before he engaged me. One of the times can be seen clearly in the video. He attempted to pull a dagger which he dropped. This will often be the case when trying to switch weapon mid fight. The grappling was inconclusive. We both just got tired.

[tsafa1]

@buboetherat In the end, despite having landed two shots the grappling proved to be highly inefficient. He dropped his dagger in scuffle. He could not get me to yield, I could not break his lock. We were both too tired to continue. We had a stillmate. If you keep looking though the videos, you will see at least two other attempts at grappling where I clearly won. The issue is that grappling involves "multiple fencing times". I can swing my sword faster then he can execute his grappling moves.

[buboetherat]

@tsafa1 ..and we'd do better if we could hit lower than the knee, kick the shield, smack them in the face with the pommel or butt of the weapon, trip them, do a "tear-down" against the neck, etc. All these possibilities are precluded by the rules and the participants have this as an extra shield. There is no attempt to include such tactics or to train to counter them. Hence the lack of a "martial" aspect. It is purely a sporting endeavor.

[tsafa1]

@buboetherat I just thought I should let you know that I respect your opinions and value your feedback even though I don't agree with all of it. 

Now regarding the low leg hitting, kicking the shield, pomoling, tripping... that's all well an good by me. As you have seen sometimes play that game too.

[tsafa1]

@buboetherat The nature of the fight changes dramatically when I start putting pushing around my 230lbs of weight on a smaller guy. I have also been a the receiving end of a 300 lb guy pushing me around on the field. Strength and Weight can tilt the odds dramatically among skilled fighter. It can also be a crutch that does not allow people to develop skill. I have seen this in some Easter European fighters I have fought.

[tsafa1]

@buboetherat I fought two guys from Eastern Europe under their ruleset. They allow for low leg hits. Both guys had been fighting for more then 4 years, so they were not new. The were both focusing on trying to hit my low legs and did not know how to take advantage of the small 2 inch gapes I was opening up for them. They were leaving there head open to me because the people they normally fight can not get their sword into a 2 inch gap.

[buboetherat]

@tsafa1 I'm glad to hear that, and I feel the same towards you. Too often I see people who treat differing opinions as personal attacks.

[noloferratus]

@buboetherat That's all true but still the WMA tournament I witnessed was even more like a sporting event than any SCA heavy weapons event I saw. What's needed is a new group all together in my opinion. You also did not mention that mass weapons would be able to destroy shields in a real fight and SCA sparring does nothing to simulate this. I'd be in favor of a hit point system for shields where they should be considered destroyed if hit by a given number of solid mass weapon blows.

[buboetherat]

@noloferratus I see that point about the WMA events being more sportive than martial. I don't make the argument that WMA is a martial art, in part because there is no living tradition of the practice. Systema makes the claim that it has 11th c. roots, but that is tenuous at best.

[buboetherat]

@tsafa1 Nevertheless, whether or not you can beat one particular opponent does not support the assertion that SCA combat is a martial art.

[noloferratus]

@buboetherat I would agree that SCA combat is not a martial art however I can say that I have used SCA fighting techniques in defense of my own life and I found that it worked just fine.

[buboetherat]

@tsafa1...not to mention that if he'd had a greatsword or a polearm, you'd have lost your shins a lot. The combination of weapons was to your advantage.

[tsafa1]

@buboetherat Most WMA tournaments I have seen, so not allow for grappling and have rules too. WMA Longsword tournaments are not much different then SCA Greatsword tournaments other then the SCA tournaments use committed blows. I have studied WMA too, so I know the in's and out's. To give an example almost all groups drill grappling, but almost none use it competitively.

[tsafa1]

@buboetherat My aprouch to swordmanship is to study everything I can. WMA, SCA anything else that comes my way too. By studying from different perspectives I am able to smooth out the shortcomings of any one system.

[norseart]

The TuChux were actually using the cooper lake campground for their annual event before the SCA did.

[tsafa1]

Thanks for that bit of info. I'm kind of glad the Tuchux are grandfathered into the event. It likely means that they will keep hosting their annual charity tournament.

[LaCosaNostra132]

well even though grappling doesnt seem right, many soldiers in real life would sometimes have to do this in the heat of a battle. What you see in this video is more realistic than what youll see in any other martial arts.

[tsafa1]

Very interesting perspective.

[LaCosaNostra132]

well I cant tell if your being sarcastic or not but im serious. Your fighting and your weapon gets knocked out of your hand or you get to close to your opponent, a soldiers mind will run in 100 directions all going twords survival. Almost everything you've learned goes down the drain and you end up doing anything to try and live through out the battle. Movies really, REALLY glorify what happens in a real battle. But there still cool of course. I think only a true champion sees a battle differet

[LaCosaNostra132]

differently*

[tsafa1]

I agree with you. Your comparison to other martial arts was the "interesting" part I was referring to.

[LaCosaNostra132]

Oh I see. Yea I just meant like Kendo. I think Kendo is cool but it will never make you feel like SCA will with its realizm.

[tsafa1]

Yep, until your hitting with real power, your not really fighting.

[buboetherat]

@tsafa1

SCA "combat" ain't no martial art...

>:)

[tsafa1]

@buboetherat, now why would you say such a thing. I have looked at all the the possible definitions of what a martial art is. They are either loose enough so that any fighting activity can be considered a martial art or so strict that nothing except real combat with fatalities will qualify.

[buboetherat]

@tsafa1 It seems that you're arguing for no standards whatsoever, and I disagree with that. By that logic, anything could be termed a martial art from American football to a shoving match between two toddlers in the sandbox. I'm sure that there are those who wish to call SCA fighting such for various reasons, but I disagree. Firstly, there is no true martial intent, and by that I mean that there is no intent to kill, maim, or hurt as the founding basis for the practice.

[tsafa1]

@buboetherat Google Behourdium Tradition. People in the middle ages used wooden clubs to fight in tournaments as a preparation for battle. If it was good for them it is good for us. I have had a long debate with people in the WMA community about what is a Martial Art and what is not. Since when they hold tournaments it down not look much different then SCA fighting. They have to adapt to the fight just like we do. At that point it looks the much the same.

[tsafa1]

@buboetherat The definition that I was able to reach with WMA people was that when both WMA and SCA people are drilling, doing pell work or cutting... we are practicing a Martial Art. When both WMA and SCA are fighting we are both engaged in sport. This was a compromise we could both agree to. The key issue that we both recognized that at one time at another we are doing the same thing. Also the people participating at one time or another make mistakes.

[buboetherat]

@tsafa1 I'd say that technically, the WMMA folk are engaged in the historical re-construction of a martial art. Closer to a martial art to be sure. SCA is only sport combat. Furthermore, not that this is sufficient conditions, the SCA doesn't have any cannon of technique, nor system of instruction, nor schools, salles, dojos or whatever you wish to call them except for in the most rudimentary form.

[tsafa1]

@buboetherat The reason I was able to get them to agree to this is because I practice WMA too. I have formal training in a WMA school and I am very familiar with the Lichtenauer system. No where in the system does it say exactly how to step or how to cut. There has been a lot of filling in the blanks by modern scholars. If you look at a word for word translation, as I have, you will see that it does not make sense. Scholars have done a lot of interpretation.

[buboetherat]

@tsafa1 Just because behourde tournaments existed doesn't equate to SCA combat being a martial art. Sid hoc ergo propter hoc.fallacy.

[tsafa1]

@buboetherat They did those tournaments for a reason. Medieval tournaments were not done for fun. They were done as training for war, display of military prowess and to collect ransom.

[noloferratus]

That's funny I witnessed a so called WMA "Arming Sword" tournament and saw little similarity to SCA fighting. I'd say all of their fly swatting style blows would have been fairly ineffective against an armored opponent in a real fight. I was so unimpressed with what I saw that I chose not to attend their so called school of western martial arts. Actually rattan is a grass and is not wood but I agree it is a good material to spar with if the idea is to deliver full blows.

[tsafa1]

@noloferratus When they spar in WMA they are assumed to be completely without armor. The is similar to the Cut and Thurst program in the SCA, which is an off shoot of the Rapier program. A lot of people don't realize that we also use steel blades in the SCA and assume no armor too. The amored combat that assumes mail is only one aspect of the SCA. At times though, I have see a lot of similarity in Rattan Greatsword tournaments and WMA tournament (except for the hitting calibration).

[tsafa1]

@noloferratus The fact of the mater is that there are only so many ways the body will move. There are also so many ways to safely strike with a two handed weapon. Contrary to popular belief the attacks of a two handed weapon are very limited because all attacks must be defensive... and defensive moves must seek to regain the initiative, otherwise you are only blocking and will be hit sooner or later.

[noloferratus]

@tsafa1 I don't go by popular beliefs I go by personal experience. It's true that most of my initial attacks were blocked or deflected but not all of them were. I attacked first in most sparring matches because the other guy wanted to gain a timing advantage and he usually had a shield. My second shot was mostly defensive and sometimes I took an arm if I timed it right. Most shield users in the SCA tried to counter instantly with a wrap while stepping in so I planned my second shot accordingly.

[tsafa1]

The basis of WMA fighting is to Attack Defensively and Defending while attacking. SCA knights were doing these things well before the manuals were translated because its obvious and its also used in other martial arts. SCA fighting does not contradict WMA or any other Martial Arts, it reinforces most of those principles. At the same time it is flexible enough to deal with changing circumstances. That would have been the case on a medieval battlefield or tournament.

[tsafa1]

Many WMA practitioners fail to see the ART aspect of Marital Arts. It is intended to be flexible and adapt to changing circumstances. Such circumstances can include terrain, codes of chivalry... or rule sets. The historical manuals are a guide.

[noloferratus]

@tsafa1 I asked the WMA instructor and he specifically said there was no difference from the way they counted their blows when armored vs unarmored, and that was at a tournament where multiple WMA groups met. Clearly the blows were too weak to be effective against an armored opponent in any type of armor. Incidentally they disalowed thrusting attacks to the face which in my view made for a very unrealistic simulation of a fight with two handed swords.

[tsafa1]

@noloferratus That is strange. I wonder if what he really meant is that they were assuming blossfechen (unarmed), regardless of the level of armor actually worn. There is one melee tournament at Pennsic call Combat of the 30 were the rules are, Armor as Worn. Its a 30 on 30 fought mostly by high level fighters where they mostly armpit shots, back of the leg and faceplate are the only shots that count.

[tsafa1]

@buboetherat We are all calibrated for mail and nasal helms. That mean that regardless of what we are wearing we are all assumed to be in the same armor. The strikes we make will be sufficient to break a mans bones through the mail and gambson with a Type X or Xa sword. The historical manuals only fighting in either plate armor or no armor. The do not address the most common type of armor worn for over 3,000 years which is mail, leather and layer of cloth.

[buboetherat]

@tsafa1 Search around Youtube. There's some videos that show the SCA assumptions are false.

[tsafa1]

@buboetherat The fighting we do would kill, maim or hurt a man in mail over a gamb and a nasal helm or coif. You will notice that very few of us wear mail... well that is because it hurts. I have mail I have worn over my gambeson and fought in it... not a good idea unless you like getting you muscles charlie horsed. The rattan spread the force out over a wide surface. A blade would concentrate all that force on its edge and bruise the muscle beyond use or bread bone.

[buboetherat]

@tsafa1 You don't know that for sure. Furthermore, the idea that one could cut through a metal helmet witha sword is less than certain. Notice the difference in technique between Blossfechten and Harnischfecten. In Harnishfecten, no cuts are made, only thrusts to unarmored areas like face, armpit or groin.

[tsafa1]

@buboetherat Little chance of cutting through a helm but not necessary. A Norman Nasal helm weighted 2lbs or less, unlike our 7 lb to 9 lb SCA helms designed to absorb blows. A direct shot to a historical 2 lb nasal helm, that we are all assumed to be in, would knock a man out or at lest stun him. You are focusing solely on 15th century fighting. Mail and leather armor was used for a much longer period. Even in the 15th century only the nobility would fight in plate.

[buboetherat]

@tsafa1 You can swing a golf club or a baseball bat at an assailant, but this doesn't make golf or baseball a martial art. There is little or no rigor in terms of practice of technique or training compared with karate, judo or the like, and in my opinion, the practices employed in SCA fighting might increase one's likelihood of losing a "real" sword-fight were such to occur. In particular, I find that SCA fighters have no sense of the "Zufechten" vs the "Krieg", to use Lichtenauer's terminology.

[tsafa1]

@buboetherat If you fight any Knights you will see a very good sense of distance and timing. If you watch new fighter in either SCA or WMA you will see the same errors being made.

[buboetherat]

@tsafa1 I've fought in the SCA for about ten years, so I know of what you speak. Furthermore, I see opportunities against the same knights which cannot be exploited because of the rules of engagement. For instance refer to the Tallhoffer & Viking shield work posted by tosstoke from Hammaborg. None ot this is allowed in the standard SCA rules and any knight confronted with it would be at a disadvantage to be sure. Furthermore the same applies for Ringen technique.

[tsafa1]

@buboetherat Many of those knights do fight outside the SCA too. The always do well. If you can't beat them with rules, what makes you think you can beat them without rules. Kind of like going in a boxing ring with Mike Tyson in his day. Yeah boxing has rules. You think you can beat him in a fist fight with no rules. He bites peoples ears off then there are rules, you have no idea what he will do when there are no rules.

[buboetherat]

The knights, in my experience do not participate in anything outside the SCA that relates to the SCA combat skill set. I know of one who jousts and that's about it. You're arguing that restricting a set of possible actions somehow makes someone more or at least equally effective. Somehow not allowing grappling etc. in the SCA makes participants better at what they do seems to be what you purport.

[tsafa1]

@buboetherat Duke Beletrix, who had a big impact on SCA fighting early on and influenced much of the fundamentals had studied Asian Martial Arts all his life. The founder of the TuChux, which is an SCA break away still is a Do Jo near Pittsburg. I know a number of SCA fighters who have Black Belts in Karate, others Boxers. One of the best SCA fighters I know has a Mui Tai back ground. Of course there is people like me who also study WMA. Two SCA knights in Mass run a WMA school and teach Fiore.

[buboetherat]

@tsafa1 They simply walk up into "Krieg" distance and assume a rigid stance. In fact the usual SCA greatsword stance (with the sword's point toward the heavens but the hilts held out at the chest) runs contrary to anything in the historical fighting manuals.

[tsafa1]

@buboetherat Look through the Italian guards and you will see one with the cross in front of the chest that points toward heaven. You will rarely see good fighter just walk into measure with a polearm or twosword without a plan of attack. With a heater or kite shield you can because you have better defense. Still, good fighter are mindful of their range. Newbies do dumb shit in SCA and WMA too, you have to disregard that.

[suzerain01]

@LaCosaNostra132

(just found this by random browsing...) I'd say it would be more accurate to remove "sometimes" from your comment of "Soldiers in real life would sometimes have to do this in the heat of a battle" - you just need to go through the 15th/16th C fechtbuch oh Paulus Kal, Ringeck, Thalhoffer, Paulus Hector Mair, and he likes to see countless demonstrations that indicate such actions were considered integral to the fighting methodology

[ebonknight]

Now that is a great idea and profitable for the owners of the site.

[ebonknight]

Its not that I don't like grappling but I was unaware that they did this in the SCA. If this is an exception then I can better understand that. Thanks for the explanation. Where are you from?

[tsafa1]

Osgard, East Kingdom (Brooklyn NY). This particular activity was NON-SCA. There are other groups that go to Pennsic too like LARP and WMA. If I had to guess... I would say that they formed a separate Corp for Pennsic, that then brings in the various groups. In that technical circumstance the SCA is not hosting this event. The SCA would be just one of a few other tenets. Just using a good business guess here. That is how corp's usually protect themselves.

[ebonknight]

Wow, I guess if this is what it comes to...

[tsafa1]

I guess you don't like grappling??? Thats fine. In the regular melees and tournaments there is no grappling. What you see here is an exception.

[ebonknight]

So now the SCA is doing MMA?  WTF?

[tsafa1]

Why not? we are flexible. The SCA does just about anything that is medieval related. However, they generally seperate the various aspects so people can pick an choose. Their is a lot of stuff they do, but you have to get in and mingle with people to find out when and where. Some of the battles like Combat of the 30 they fight with "armor as worn". That means you have to hit people were they have no armor or get three consecutive shots to kill.

[Nihilisticweasel]

Totally one of my new favorite fighting videos on Youtube. I know it isn't straight up SCA fighting but this is plain bad ass.

Oh the knight at 5:30 that gets put down, he was doing so well til then...

[tsafa1]

lol, that was funny. Even funnier to me because that is my Knight. He does extremely well in that tournament. He made the semi-finals both this year and last. I'm very proud to have a kick ass knight that can do well under any circumstances.

[Nihilisticweasel]

That's your knight? Yeah he is a total bad ass. I can only hope should a knight deem me worthy to squire me that he is as capable and diverse!

Knowledge and training are invaluable in a knight squire relationship, but a knight who can ACTUALLY throw down is different then a knight who knows how to throw down.

[deathray1982]

Thanks for hosting this tourney Tuchux! This was one of my top three favorite events at Pennsic.

[CrowbarrCreations]

Love the crowd, PUNCH HIM! PUNCH HIM! Awesome work.

[ShinJudo]

Where in the hell was I when the Chux were doing -this-?? I can't believe I missed this! Is the turney open to any fighter that wants a piece?

Also, it was an honor fighting by your side at the river battle as well as fighting against you in the woods battle. Mad ups to the Chux.

[tsafa1]

That is exactly why I took this video taken and why I posted it. Too few people know about it. This TuChux tournament has been going on for at least a few years at Pennsic. It is open to everyone who can donate $5 to charity. I expect there will be a lot more participation next Pennsic now that the word is getting around via You Tube. There was about 50 people in it this year. I would expect at least 100 next year.

[ShinJudo]

Expect another to join you. I will see you on the list, my friend. You will see me next year, God willing.

[tsafa1]

I look forward to meeting you next August on the field of honer.

[viatus]

Oh this is not the SCA Im used to seeing :/

[tsafa1]

Sometimes we bend the rules, lol.

[belke249]

yes the whole chin strap thing is very important... i actually did not have mine on right and with our rules headbutting is legal too and i ended up chipping a tooth... but hey it was definatlly kworth it!

[tsafa1]

It was an honer to enter the list with you. Hope to see you again next year.

[tsafa1]

I found something I think you will like given the tooth you chipped.

"No athlete/youth can fight tenaciously who has never received any blows: he must see his blood flow and hear his teeth crack... then he will be ready for battle."

Roger of Hoveden, 1174-1201

[belke249]

no i have not heard that before thank you.... the sad part is that ive played ameture ice hockey for 18 years and never chpped/cracked a tooth..... adn i will see you next year in hte lists

[filmbuiltyouth]

Yes!!! Thanks for posting this! Now I see what you're talking about. We gotta try that sometime. It looked like a blast!

I worry though that if the chin strap on my close helm popped the built-in steel chin shelf would break my nose as it comes off... maybe another excuse to get a sallet... :)

I'd heard of a full-contact rule allowing three consecutive punches to the face to count as a kill... not the case in this tourney, I guess. Makes grappling less appealing.

[tsafa1]

I saw at least one case where punching made the difference. I don't think I caught it on video, but here is how it went. Two guys on their feet trying to do a push/pull to each other. Both have a solid stance and are not moving much. One guy punches the other in the ribs with the gauntlet. That cause him to exhale and hunch over breaking his structure. He then gets put down by a classic push to the chest pull behind the knee. Once on the ground the other guy picks up a weapon and kills him.

[LegionOfDoumbek]

Looks like fun, but how come the helms are coming off? Are they not strapped sufficiently or is something else happening ? Rock on!

[tsafa1]

Grabbing someone by the helm and pulling them down provides tremendous leverage to bring them down. I brought the guy down at 4:00. As you pull down, if the head rolls inside the helm just a little, the strap slides over the chin. Rivets also sometimes break under there emence forces. Ripping someone's helm off constituted a win in the tournament, since given that punching with gauntlets is allowed they would be killed soon after in a real battle.

[LegionOfDoumbek]

Thanks for the insight and thanks for sharing the entertaining video! I'll have to check it out next year!

[Renrat1982]

now that is my kind of fighting!!!

[tsafa1]

Most people don't know we do this type of fighting at Pennsic. I did not know until this year. I think this video will generate a lot of interest for this tournament by next year.