The Katana - Soul of the Samurai Part 4 of 5

[sant131313]

THE KATANA IS THE BEST WEAPON EVER!!!!

[Protherium]

Finally, here are some fairly authentic replicas of a Type XVIII sword - a sword which was used in 15th century across Europe and intended for combat a mix of armoured/unarmoured foes. They all were used by a well known and competent backyard cutter:

-- watch?v=4MEByeM80Mk

--watch?v=FQeTwRVKq7o

-- watch?v=0PhFQprQAIU

We see that real swords in hands of a real swordsman perform almost identically to a katana in terms of speed, sharpess and handling comfort.

Actors with props == BS!

[NWOareScum]

@Protherium - do they make them the same way? i thought other swords were cast in moulds and-or didn't use the different types of steel & folding.

[Protherium]

@NWOareScum

Yup, european swords were made just like katana:

-- ht*tp://ww*w.swordforum.c*om/f­orums/showthread.p*hp?105673-D­ebunking-European-Sword-Myths. (Remove stars)

Same can be said about Chinese, Persian and Caucasian swords. Not my own opinion, but facts based on research.

[NWOareScum]

@Protherium - ok i obviously can't read all those pdf's already, but a quick skim over them & they aren't made the same way as the katana in these documentaries, there's quite a few major differences, eg -

the amount of folding, if any

the ways of getting the two main starter metals

the way they form the curve of the blade

the atomic element content

cheers for link tho.

[Protherium]

@NWOareScum

""the amount of folding, if any""

-- ht*tp://w*ww.swordforum.c*om/f­orums/showthread.p*hp?106598-F­olded-steel-in-European-blades

""the ways of getting the two main starter metals""

-- Alan Williams: The Knight and the Blast Furnace: A History of the Metallurgy of Armour in the Middle Ages & the Early Modern Period © 2003 (available at Google Books!)

European High Middle Ages have actually seen advanced furnaces and bloomeries, which rendered pattern welding obsolete.

[NWOareScum]

@Protherium - that's what i meant, it says only about 10 folds, not 100s or 1000s, and seems like maybe 1 or 2 of those blades found to have that - and then not for making them stronger as they didn't come out that way.

the other thing being, the japanese swords are still produced the same way to this day, i don't think anyone else does same. i'm sure the templars and teutonics etc at some points had eastern links at the least, not saying there was no tech sharing...

[Protherium]

@NWOareScum

Actually you confuse folding process and the amount of layers - with each fold the number of layers doubles and their thickness halves. Japanese swordsmiths usually fold 12-15 times, and after 15 folds you have 32.768 layers. Up to 30 folds are reported in Japan. Further folding is pointless, cause at this step you alredy have a perfectly homogenous piece of steel.

As described in Stefan Mäder's paper all blades, even 6-8th century simple knives, were folded that way.

[NWOareScum]

@Protherium - so who else makes swords thesedays that actually work as well as samurai swords then.

you have to admit, there's hundreds of thousands of japanese blades, and they still make them the same way. compared to some archea findings & nobody having it passed down to this day...

[gurkfisk89]

@NWOareScum

"So who else makes swords thesedays that actually work as well as samurai swords then."

Off the top of my head, Peter Johnsson, Pavel Moc and Stefan Roth. Albion Swords also makes swords that works just as well, but they use modern methods to make their blades.

I think you will enjoy Peter Johnsson's work with the Swedish regent Svante Nilsson's sword.

[Protherium]

@Protherium

""the way they form the curve of the blade""

You mean get a curve through selective hardening? Yes, that was not used in Europe, but selective hardening was widely employed even it Early Middle Ages:

-- ht*tp://ww*w.swordforum.c*om/f­orums/showthread.p*hp?85559-A-­riddle!

""the atomic element content""

There are no great differences, both were similarly pure:

German sword steel analysis -- ht*tp://ww*w.messerforum.n*et/­fotoalbum/data/619/essener-sch­wert.j*pg

[Protherium]

5:08

The "european sword" used there is similar to Type XIV, a sword which fell out of favor long before plate armor was introduced. So basically NatGeo's "Knight" is a pure anachronism! Wrong sword, wrong plate, wrong time period. This indicated their ignorance pretty well.

And of course the european "swordsman" is an actor, with no martial experience. In short - they got almost anything wrong in terms of Europe.

[Protherium]

I still do not understand why they made a "Euro vs Jap" comparison in a documentation entirely about japanese swords?? Regarding the poor performance and lack of information how euro swords were really forged and used I agree with the following statement:

""such comparisons are used only to paint the picture of a samurai somehow

being automatically superior to his western brother-in-arms for some

inherent reason"" © Andy Moynihan

[Rocker6chick9]

Learning Kendo is soo much fun and Sensai Asagi and Sensai Stroud are such great and understanding men :P so much fun in their class

[KenshinRyuichi]

That's why, I became a ninja, I didn't need to worry much about seppuku!

[SonarWavePulse]

Wow, these dudes are kinda shitting on broadswords arn't they?

[EGCblackknight]

@SonarWavePulse yep they're clearly of the "everything oriental is awsome and superior" school, if you read through the comments you can see who is a fan of the western way and fair research

[Versus1984]

...to penetrate with a slash hit. It was a matter of utter agility, skill and cunningness to use the tip of the sword, and to strike with precision the weak spots of the armor - the places where it disjoints such as sometimes the groin area, or the base of the neck, shoulder ect...So you can all see - european knights were not some kind of brute buchers - they were skilfull fencers and crafty sword-fighters. Judging them somewhat inferior to the samurai is quite unjust.

[Versus1984]

It is an interesting documentary. However I have a little objection on something. As far as I've read european swords in the late medielval period weren't supposed to be all that "slash" kind of weapon. They were ment to pierce with their tip, to penetrate the weak spots of the enemy's armor. If one cares to look at a fencing manual from the 15-th century, one could see what I mean. European knights from that period were literaly "enveloped" in armor plate, that is extremely difficult...

[SauerKraut95]

Yay, Risuke Otake!

[E2F83]

This is where I admire ancient Japanese society, the aristocracy based on training and discipline.

[jd1060]

Dude I'm sure they've done they're homework on this so there is no need for them to show proof as to why they claim broadsword relies on brute strength. Why don't you find out for yourself rather than question their analysis.

[Caliburnis]

Bit of an old comment, but I feel I must respond.

They obviously have not done their homework. Just because someone /proclaims/ themselves to be an expert does not mean they actually know what they're talking about.

If you go back to the Source literature, the Medieval and Renaissance Fight manuals that their masters wrote, you can see they in no way, shape, or form relied upon "brute force". That's just a modern myth.

[Caliburnis]

A few quotes from the Masters themselves;

Johannes Liechtenauer;

"a weak man would more certainly win with his art and cunningness than a strong man with his strength"

Filipo Vadi;

Good eye, knowledge, dexterity are needed, and if you have both heart and strength, youll be a problem for everyone.

and;

cunning wins [over] any strength

Another quote by Liechtenauer via Doebringer basically summarizes the point;

"it is always the art that should go before the strength."

[anotherelvis]

Slashing swords work well against weak armor. We also used them in Europe in the early middle ages.

[unbiasedperson]

broadswords dont dull as fast when hitting shields, armor and other swords.

[pinoykulet]

Broadswords needs too much force to make up for the cutting as a katana.

[82gil82]

European broad swords swords had no effect in Japan? Well they bloody well wouldn't would they, as Europeans where something of a rarity in in Japan during the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries.

Broadsword relies on brute strength? Does it? Really?  Care to offer any evidence of this, or maybe some academic credentials professor full-of-sh*t?

[boettcherownzu]

Wow. Internet rage over a TV show. Calm down

[ColonelAllan]

similar cutting performance my ass.

[AceVendetta]

What they didn't look at is the cleaness of the cut. They would've seen a huge difference there.

[dima2244]

and you didnt quite look at the quality of the straws. the one the samuri cuts isnt as compact as the one cut by the other. thus its more shaky. you can see a huge chunk along the left side almost part after the first cut.

[AceVendetta]

even if you don't look at the loose straws, on the broadsword you can see that it didn't cut flat.

[dima2244]

i misunderstood you, i thought you were defending the broadsword. i agree, the katana has a superior cut. not to mention it doesnt cause you lose balance that much.

[Stapurda]

there are still people who are learning the bushido

[shotgunwound]

that swordsmans abilities are just amazing.

[maceioninjutsu]

I would like to see otake sparr kuroda sensei

[ynaggo]

Its a shame how the katana has such little respect from people today. People use it for cutting wood and so forth.

[123JoeD456]

they do?!

[talkfan]

risuke otake is incredible! A true master swordsman