I support the rights of everyone to have their own space. Ideally, I would have somewhere to get away from people like yourself because I'm tired of hearing the same old shit and the same old phrases.... the oppression/privilege paradigm and all the PC rituals that come with it.
I think the idea of exclusionary spaces is terrible for any political ideology since it creates a kind of echo chamber where only one mode of thought, opinion and viewpoint is allowed to proliferate, without criticism, opposing views or debate styles it could develop into a cultish sort of brainwashing. If spaces exist to discuss important civil issues and reforms to society, shouldn't said hubs for ideas be open to outside input? Criticism and viewpoints? Otherwise its more like going to church
@TselkeNoddles Is sharing experiences of oppression the same thing as discussing reforms to society? No. When we're talking about sexism, women don't NEED people saying "But are you sure? I don't think that was sexism I think it was x y z" because it's really undermining and belittling. Exclusionary spaces are vital for oppressed groups to raise their consciousness and find ways to cope in a prejudiced society. ~ Jenn
@ThosePeskyDames Actually yes, said women do need ways of asking if some things are sexism or not. Or else literally anything can be determined and labeled sexism if you have a controlled group acting as an echo chamber agreeing with one another over and over again. It would be similar to a very right wing religious group all telling each other that every little action of society was a threat to their culture... but no outside input or dissent was allowed... see what I mean?
@TselkeNoddles I fail to see how a man would be automatically qualified to know what is sexist or not, it's not like a cult, there is no "outside perspective", unless you see all women only spaces as inherently misandrist?
@ofcoursec34 I see all women only spaces, as not being inherently "women only," because I suspect women who disagree with the ideological perspective are banned as well.
@TselkeNoddles This discussion is going nowhere - nobody is changing their minds so this is a bit pointless. I'm going to ask you nicely to end it here or take your debate elsewhere. ~ Jenn
@TselkeNoddles (I don't know what happened to my post so I'm sorry if I'm repeating myself): NO ONE HAS, but if anyone has a bigger chance of correctly determining whether or not something is sexist it is surely the one who was THERE. A male perspective isn't needed because it isn't meant as a political forum primarily but as a form of support-group. Support groups need to create a safe environment for those in need of support, a safe space. This is done with both genders.
@ofcoursec34 There for what? How does said person objectively determine if something was sexist by going to a group of people that have already determined that X, Y, and Z is sexism, and anyone who does not agree is not welcome. It seems like a bad idea because it perpetuates a specific outlook and mentality without any critical thought or analysis. What if some women and men do not agree that such and such is sexism? What then?... their wrong and your right? Talk about dogma.
@TselkeNoddles "and anyone who does not agree is not welcome" No, anyone who denies that sexism exists isn't welcome. Anyone that does so is part of the opression, and therefore not appropriate in a "safe-space", whatever their gender-identity might be. And I don't really see why you seem to think that lack of male presence > the complete absence of critical thinking?
@ofcoursec34 So again, by your own admission, anyone who might question the groups opinion on what is and isn't sexism is not welcome. Ideologically if you come at this from a perspective of "O' I am being oppressed," that is fine, but if the only acceptable viewpoint is that you and your group are the victim of "sexist oppression," and that is the only valid ideological position, then indeed these "Womens spaces," are just ideological echo chambers... no critical analysis welcome.
@TselkeNoddles It's like you're not even reading my posts, what is it you don't get about this? Do you really think that the aknowledgment of the existance of sexism in our society constitutes an extreme "ideological position"?
@ofcoursec34 Yes, such "acknowledgment" does indeed constitute an extreme ideological position. The word "sexism" is problematic in the first place. Not everybody agrees on WHAT it is, let alone that is even IS at all. . .
@fidelbogen "Sexism, also known as gender discrimination or sex discrimination, is defined as prejudice or discrimination based on sex; or behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex."
@ThreeCamels Because it's sexist for an oppressed group to sometimes want to have a space to talk without anyone else? No. It's necessary. I am fed up with men getting arsey over being excluded from one space, for a limited amount of time. The idea you have a right to participate in every discussion ever even when it does not concern you reeks of privilege and I have no time for it. ~ Jenn
@ThosePeskyDames You keep on saying that men dominate conversations, and that women are more passive in conversation. You say that men mean this and women are like this when really you are categorizing people. You should be looking at each person as an individual instead of labeling everyone. I am a male, I am also chronically shy living with S.A.D, I have faced extreme adversity just like most people. So when I say I find this sexist and insulting, I mean that in the worst way. ~ Benjamin
@ThreeCamels Actually she specifically said that a large amount of men in fact don't mean to do this or even realize they are doing it. Perhaps a similar gorup for men only would help you branch outin an environment that isn't the internet. Good job reaching out though.
@ThreeCamels At no point did I say that all men's lives are perfect, nor that men face no oppression whatsoever. My point is that men do not face the same gender oppression that women do. If women want a space to discuss experiences of gender oppression amongst themselves, I think that's totally fine. I'm sorry if you were insulted by my video, but I stand by what I say. I don't think I was in any way sexist to point out differences in socialisation or the existence of privilege. ~ Jenn
@ThreeCamels How about you stop projecting your anxiety against women? This is where misogyny comes from a lot: men who percieve all women as rejecting them, and thus take up a hatred of women. It's really creepy to invoke your personality problems in a discussion about feminism. Go take it out on something else you crybaby.
yeah see it looks bad now.... equality means we are equal right? why not have spaces for everyone and ignore people you do not want to talk to?
also there is no more women oppression. Maybe only in the most backwards of places there still are, also were u brought up in the 50s or something? "women have been taught to sit down and listen etc" lol not...really
@blickluke Yeah white people only spaces is bad because white people aren't an oppressed group and therefore don't need a safe space. If you don't think women are oppressed I am not going to debate this with you as it's a waste of my time. ~ Jenn
As a male feminist, I do admit I feel bad and excluded when I cannot go to one of these groups, because to me they sound so interesting. However, I do recognize my privilege, and I do understand many women will be quiet if I am there; therefore I am in favor of these female only spaces. I wish we could do without them, but I understand why we need them.
@senhoraamirim Not ridiculous at all! We really need to add captions, it's terrible that we've gone without this long without making the channel accessible. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be as easy as it should be though. Will speak to the other Dames and see if we can get it sorted asap.
@senhoraamirim Not at all! I normally post a transcript for my videos to my tumblr - I'll work on that and have it posted by the end of the week and will try and tackle the subs too. ~ Jenn
@sWeepingsAnd I agree with you that plenty of space is already gendered. Would you class a women only consciousness raising group as a subversion of gendered space? ~ Jenn
@ThosePeskyDames I didn't say that you are sexist. It was a reference to the film _Higher Learning_, in which a women's only group called themselves "Students for a Non-Sexist Society," which of course gets them confronted.
If one of the reasons for excluding men is that their presence would affect the women there just by being there, is completely allowing trans women reasonable? Some trans women can pass just fine, but others are distinctly masculine. Should there be a test of how feminine you look? What about androgynous cis women? I'm sure butch lesbians could make femme straight women uncomfortable too. If an androgynous gay man could sit quietly, it doesn't seem like such an issue with the standards in place.
@GoingRampant There is a difference between people who present as male and supposedly "masculine" or androgynous people who present as female. There are also two reasons for the exclusion of men from these groups, 1) the tendency for men to dominate conversation and speak over women, often without even realising they are doing so, and 2) the way having men present may affect the women in feeling comfortable to voice their opinions.
@GoingRampant Feminist groups who exclude transwomen sometimes do so by arguing that anyone raised male, regardless of the gender identity, carries with them male privilege that may still lead them to dominate conversations. However anyone who now presents as female, regardless of how they were raised, may experience female oppression. We also can't assume anything about the differing experiences of trans* people compared to those raised in the gender they naturally identify with.
@ThosePeskyDames Trans women, being women, don't experience nor benefit from male privilege. It isn't truly a women's space unless trans women are allowed.
We discussed in a class whether women only wagons in the public transport are a way to stop harrassment. The idea behind it is neat, but also shows the society's inability to protect women from harrasment. I hope one day we don't need such spaces because women REALLY can talk freely. Feminism also needs to focus on men and encourage those men who are awesome by supporting us :)
But is excluding men going to solve the fundamental problem of women letting others dominate the discussion? won't those same women just let the more confident women dominate the discussion now that men aren't around? isn't unwillingness to present your opinions in the presence of stronger personalities more that just a women only problem? isn't that unfair to any men who share your beliefs and suffer the same problem?
@SallyXSwing Yes, there will probably be some women who then dominate the discussion, but it removes the power imbalance and makes it easier for everyone to have a say. Men may share the same beliefs but they do not in any way face the same kind of oppression/discrimination that women do. ~ Jenn
@ThosePeskyDames aren't you saying that men are inherently more powerful then women?
and i've never really felt oppressed in society as a woman, im sorry to say. ive felt oppressed as a homosexual, and i've felt oppressed as a girl who occasionally cross-dresses. and i grew up in a highly patriarchal conservative christian family. but if ever i feel oppressed in society, it's something that a male could face in similar circumstances.
@SallyXSwing I don't think Jenn is saying that men are inherently more powerful than women but that they are afforded more power by society and are socialised to be more confident in voicing their opinions and expecting them to be listened to. This won't be true of all men, but it is a social norm.
Also, while I think it's great that you have never felt oppressed as a woman, the "I've never felt oppressed by "x" therefore it isn't a problem" argument is rather derailing, as many women have.
@somekindofbecca my point was that you're kind of holding a double standard. you are both creating an unfair expectation for men, and removing dominant male personalities doesn't solve the problem of submissive female personalities. but if a handful of women dominate the conversation, that's okay, cause they're women, right?
@SallyXSwing Removing dominant male voices may not instantly solve quiet or unconfident female voices however it does provide an environment where there is more room for them to find an opening to voice their opinion and speak up without being spoken over, as often happens in mixed gender groups.
Yes more confident women may still dominate discussion but this is where it is up to the group to do all they can to ensure the shyer members are able to speak up too, perhaps through facilitation.
@SallyXSwing Oppression is also about more than personal experiences of oppression. A person may never feel themselves to be oppressed and yet still occupy a less powerful position in society because of the social dynamics of privilege. For example a woman may not feel oppressed for not having the vote, because she may not believe that women should have the vote, yet she is still in a socially less powerful position regardless.
@somekindofbecca well, i mean, theres obviously female problems, i.e. slut shaming, but i feel like a lot of feminists are unempathetic to male problems i.e. virgin shaming. most feminists seem to believe that gender inequalities never hurt men, they only ever hurt women, which is demonstrably wrong. so while there are problems with how women are treated in society, i never feel like theres significantly less problems with how men are treated. which is why i'm not a "feminist".
@SallyXSwing The myth that most feminists are anti-men or don't care about male or non-female gender struggles is hugely derailing and one that plagues these discussions. While this may be true of some feminists, it is unfair to assume it is true of most, and it certainly hasn't been my experience at all.
However, whilst there are clearly issues of gender which do affect and disadvantage men, such as virgin shaming, permission to display emotion, hyper-masculinity etc they are not... cont
@SallyXSwing ... systematically oppressed by society in the way that women are. If you disagree I would ask you to consider the percentage of women in positions of power, e.g. in government, as CEOs & senior execs, & the under-representation & negative representation of women in the media.
It is also not the responsibility of women to discuss these issues, although they are relevant to the wider feminist movement; however I would welcome groups of men who wanted to meet to discuss these issues.
@SallyXSwing This video is not the place to discuss if feminism is necessary, should it exist, is it valid, etc. etc. Comments which are not related to the topic will be removed. Google is at your disposal (as are many feminist websites) if you wish to learn more about feminism. I would be happy to direct you to some useful sites. ~ Jenn
I have not studied much in the area of feminism or gender-specification, but I think there are many areas that are already women-only spaces. I've worked in a daycare and a lingerie shop. In both places the staff was entirely female and although I never saw a man specifically discriminated against, they were not openly invited to join in those environments. I worry that the more we categorize areas and spaces as gender-specific, the more we perpetuate gender profiling and discrimination.
@shannonlwilliams There is a difference between a lingerie store and a women only discussion group. Shutting men out of one room for an hour does not, in my opinion, count as discrimination. ~ Jenn
@ThosePeskyDames Fair enough, and I am not opposed to women-only groups. My concern is when an hour discussion group becomes more; an organization, a collective, a career field or business. The more we support the idea that only someone similar to me can understand or welcome my free express, the more discrimination will flourish in society.
In Jerusalem, a secular Palestinian group set up an area to discuss 'the oppression and discrimination of their people by policies of the Israeli state'. They decide that no Jews should be allowed into this area, even Jews who are sympathetic to their outlook, stressing that they have nothing against Jews, just certain policies of the Israeli state, and they fear that the presence of a Jew may prevent quieter Palestinians from speaking their mind.
In my college there is a women's only space, however the rules were changed to allow gay men into the space only. I was just wondering how you would feel about this. It was explained that since gay men wouldn't objectify women that it's alright for them to be around and included in the space.
@Stephen3132 I have mixed feelings about this. Maybe I'm alone in this experience, but I have been objectified by gay men. Chalk it up to immaturity, but I've known gay men who thought that their preference gave them license to touch, grab, or discuss any part of my anatomy without my approval because they were not sexually attracted to me so therefore it shouldn't offend me. I did not appreciate this distinction and was chastised as a prude because of it.
@shannonlwilliams Yeah that's what I thought too. Though I guess I'll never use the space anyway :p I just thought it was silly having a female space open to gay men as well. Maybe it works for them though.
@Stephen3132 I personally wouldn't include gay men in a women only space, given that they still have male privilege and are, well, male. I think @shannonlwilliams makes a good point that being gay and male doesn't automatically mean you have no problematic attitudes towards women. ~ Jenn
Another benefit to women's only spaces: if women wish to discuss personal issues (anything from rape and sex abuse to gynecological issues), they may naturally feel more comfortable in a woman only space. PS: You're amazing! Consider me subscribed.
Do gentlemen clubs (men only clubs) exist? I'm just asking a quick question because if they still do (and I would expect that they do, strictly from a free market perspective) then women-only spaces are perfectly fine.
From a strictly gender studies perspective I'm 100% for it.
It's not an issue of cis-privilege, its about whether or not you agree that women-born-women ("cis") are classifiable as a social class. It's something to consider when we talk about 'women-only' spaces. Mainstream feminism in general should be an umbrella movement inclusive of men and transgendered people. Women only spaces are necessary but are still broad. Just as there should be "women of color only spaces" and "transfeminist only spaces", wbw deserve their space as well.
@cannedkitty Hi, although I agree that the definition of 'woman' is relevant to a discussion of women only spaces, if Jenn has politely asked that we steer away from this topic I think you should. If you would like to continue the discussion though, my TPD video from Monday (that Jenn mentions in the video) was explicitly about this issue, so I'm happy to move the discussion into the comments there. You can find it in our "Women Only Spaces" playlist on the channel page.
@cannedkitty Also, just FYI, a preferable term to "women-born-women", other of course than cis, would be "Female Assigned At Birth" or FAAB for short. This is because "women-born-women" implies the gendering of certain body parts, and implies that transwomen only became women by identifying as trans. This also accounts for intersex people who were assigned and raised as female, without having a clearly defined biological sex.
Though I have studied feminist theory somewhat, I have not come across the term "cisgendered" till now. Am I to understand that you are a (insert whatever sexual orientation here) White Female and you match with this identify by feeling it internally? This was not clear to me in the post and I would just like to be clear that I have understood the meaning.
Also, what types of Women-only spaces do you propose?
@kazetrigger Hi, cisgendered means that you identify with the gender you were assigned at birth and raised as. This will often mean people with vaginas who identify as women, or people with penises who identify as men, as these are the typical biological assignments of gender; however this could also include intersex people who identify with the gender they were assigned and raised as.
This is to contrast with trans* people who do not identify with the gender they were assigned at birth.
@kazetrigger I am indeed a cis white female (cis according to @somekindofbecca's description below). I don't propose a set type of women only space, I think they can and should vary. Thank you, I hope I've answered your questions! ~ Jenn
@ThosePeskyDames Thank you. That does clear things up. If I were back in the UK, we should go for coffee. XD Opinionated women are awesome. Thanks for your insight into the issue of women-only spaces, which I am also for. I sometimes feel that feminism has taken on this anti-men slant, but that's not at all what it ought to be, so hopefully future research and fair opinions prevail to give women and everyone else the benefits and equality they seek.
As far as I know - and correct me if I am wrong - there are plenty of women only spaces in Muslim countries, and I never saw those countries score very high in Gender Equality Studies. In my opinion segregation is a very dangerous tool and should be used with utmost caution. I wonder if it is really useful in changing the collective mindset of our nation/culture/mankind for the better.
@Nimmermaer You are confusing women's right to assemble and discuss issue without the intrusion of male opinion, and the forced exclusion of women from society as happens in a number in theocratic nations.
I guess it was a matter of time before MRA goons and racist trolls would find this channel. Lest we let this channel become just another endless circle of internet bickering then it is probably good we not get into digressive, yet-again 'arguments' with the privilege/patriarchy deniers. I hope the moderators spotted the race baiting red flag a few comments below.
@cannedkitty We actually attracted some triggering MRA comments in our third week when we discussed Slut Shaming. We did a whole week on online harassment and comment moderation the week after as a response. If you're interested you can see both discussions in our weekly playlists on the channel page.
Basically though, we each moderate our own videos. I'm sure Jenn will be on it if anything is said that violates our safe space policy.
I waver on the line between yes and no. The one point I want to make is that when the five loud men are removed from the room, five loud women will take their place rather than everyone suddenly freely voicing her thoughts. There will always be people who are comfortable speaking up and those who aren't as comfortable. Maybe smaller group discussions are a better solution.
@superhappyjen I agree that removing male members doesn't stop people dominating discussion - but I do think it removes the unequal power dynamic in said discussion :) awesome name by the way! ~ Jenn
I mean, whats the point of having a womens only space when the women in that space have been living in a patriarichal mindset for all of their life, and are immersed/heavily influenced by patriarichal frames of reference, whether in allegiance with or in reaction to patriarichal ideas. Its not like your gonna escape it in a 'womens only' zone if its in your brains already.
I think you should have 'feminist only' zones instead, and let any female, transgender or male feminists participate. imo
@roryphelan I think the point of the Women Only Space is they are a place to challenge the internalized patriarchal views and how they are in your brain rather than to escape from it (as you say, if it's in your mind you can't leave patriarchy at the door). There is normally that sort of agenda to the consciousness raising meetings. But other Women Only Spaces may be for discussions of other experiences, other than patriarchy, such as during the Aldermaston protests.
Seems like a biy of a no-brainer really, if one social group is dominated by another then it makes sense that they'd want a space apart from the other in which to discuss this. I'm kind of surprised that this is seen as some kind of controversy. I'm a man and feel it'd be nice of we could get to a place someday where there's not this "I'm a female, you're a male" divide and this distinction is constantl;y the first thing we notice about one another. But right now it is, so there we go.
I agree women-only spaces are awesome and necessary, but I find the "identifies as woman" requirement problematic, as you yourself pointed out. The inclusion of gender-queer individuals who face oppression because the society categorizes them as women is important when talking about both misogyny and the problematic nature of gender binary (which is a [cis-]patriarchic construct, so blaming trans* people for "reinforcing" it is bullshit). My £0.02
@MissOuJ I think your opinion is much more valuable than 2p, I agree entirely. Sadly mainstream feminism still has a long way to go on the inclusion front, but I'm hopeful we'll get there. ~ Jenn
I agree with everything you said. Where I live I can see many places that are full of men but women are nowhere to be seen and I started wondering why there aren't any places where only women can meet. We need these places, we need women to get together and talk because it makes us strong.
hay!sack of privilege,really? just because a person has a pair of testicles doesn't make them a rolling tank of confidence, who is prone to douchebaggery. Isn't that sexist? Some people might be that way but that doesn't mean you should assume things. Instead of creating no men allowed parties to help feel less intimidated wouldn't it be easier and a lot less of a hassle to just hangout with friends?
After typing I saw “AkivaII’s” beautiful typed Q. that summed up what I meant but posted anyway.
@therealoreolemon I didn't say all men are overconfident idiots. Having male privilege doesn't make you a bad person - it's just we all have to aware of our privileges and try and recognise when they're influencing our opinions. Hanging out with my friends is a very different thing to sitting down specifically to talk about women's oppression. I don't see the problem with women occasionally wanting to sit down without men to discuss issues with pertain specifically to them. ~ Jenn
I think the main reason feminists had a problem with transexuals is because they (tend to?) reinforce gender roles. A male to female transexual behaves and dresses like a stereotypical female and vice versa for the female to male transexual. Whether or not transexuality exists completely BECAUSE of they heavily enforced gender roles of society is difficult to figure out.
@Zaknafiein I understand you probably didn't mean it to be, but this comment reads as fairly transphobic. I don't think trans-identities reinforce gender roles, gender is a very fluid thing and people can experience it and express it in lots of different ways. ~ Jenn
@ThosePeskyDames When you read what I wrote, you probably imagined some venom in my tone, but there wasn't I was just writing my speculation to see what others have to say. I am not against Transsexuals, and definitely not any transgenders, but I AM against gender roles. Men don't have to behave "manly", women don't have to wear make up, dresses, skirts, if they did they would be born wearing them. But society violently enforces gender roles, more-so in other places in the US.
@ThosePeskyDames Trans-identities don't reinforce gender roles, they *hinge* on them. The very notion of 'transgenderism' is acknowledgement of gender expression as a hardwired biological mechanism, that there is a "right" gender and "wrong" gender for a person. The danger in this is that ideas of femininity are reinforced. It's troubling that radical feminists once again have their voices suppressed by throwing the 'transphobic' label around like this.
@cannedkitty I think cis-people don't get to question trans-identities, or their origins, at all - we don't know what that kind of dysphoria is like. It's just not cis-people's place to insist trans-identities are the result of the patriarchy. We don't know what it's like to be in that position. Any future comments of this nature will be deleted - you are making this space potentially unsafe for trans-people (plus this is all very off topic). ~ Jenn
@ThosePeskyDames Wow you really really misread me or I didn't explain very well. Trans-identity was not being questioned whatsoever. Gender roles are, and questioning them is a fundamental tenant of feminism.There are people who are absolutely born disassociated and uncomfortable with their 'assigned' sex, usually because the gender role..(cont)
@ThosePeskyDames (cont)...doesn't match the anatomical sex. People should be able to be who they want and choose the shade of their gender expression without fear of violence, discrimination or hatred. I briefly dated a transwoman and support LGBT across the board. I'm not coming from the right wing here. And it is relevant to the topic as you brought up transgenders in women only spaces and I'm telling you feminists will disagree on who can and cannot be a woman.
*Please excuse the taboo nature of the question; it's intention is not to be cheeky nor offensive, rather it stems from a curiousity as to how people form principles and deal with implications.
Are you willing to extend your advocacy for the right to create "Women only spaces", additionally to the right to create "Men/White/Black/Religious/etc, only spaces"? If I understand correctly, what you are advocating, despite it in this case it not being contraversial, is discrimination.
@AkivaII Women are an oppressed group - to have a women-only space would be to escape misogyny (or at least try to - since misogyny and oppression have been socialised into us all). Men, white people and Christians have NOTHING to escape from and nearly ALL spaces are inclusive for them already.
@AkivaII Any group can have their own space if they wish, I just think it's more necessary for oppressed groups (ie. women, people of colour, gender/sexual identities that have been marginalised etc.) and brings out a lot of good. Discrimination, in my view, can only happen when you have social power over the people you're discriminating against. Oppressed groups don't have that power, so the context and idea of exclusionary spaces is a bit different to discrimination. ~ Jenn
@AkivaII If you have social power you've been privileged by society - institutions and laws are built around people like you, your views & opinions are the dominant ones and your voice will be respected and listened to over others. That's what I mean by social power. ~ Jenn
If social power is an institution backed by "law" (ie. Involuntary Force), and such is what you are opposing in principle, is one then to understand that there are self identifying feminists who have the audacity to oppose legislations of Affirmative Action?
The point is, if you support affirmative action, then you would be inconsistent, and If you do not, then you break the stereotypical mold "feminist" as I know it, which I think is interesting.
Though it is unfortunate that comments are removed, it is perfectly within you right, and I still offer my regards for your kind responses. Good day.
@AkivaII I appreciate your respectfulness. I do support affirmative action as I believe it's an attempt to redress the unequal balance of power between social groups. However this video is not about feminism in general/affirmative action so I would appreciate if future comments stayed on topic. ~ Jenn
I support the rights of everyone to have their own space. Ideally, I would have somewhere to get away from people like yourself because I'm tired of hearing the same old shit and the same old phrases.... the oppression/privilege paradigm and all the PC rituals that come with it.
j1mmyZeta 19 hours ago
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j1mmyZeta 20 hours ago
I will support the idea of woman-only spaces ONLY on condition that the idea of male-only spaces gets equal support in the culture as a whole.
Otherwise, forget about it. No deal.
fidelbogen 21 hours ago 17
I think the idea of exclusionary spaces is terrible for any political ideology since it creates a kind of echo chamber where only one mode of thought, opinion and viewpoint is allowed to proliferate, without criticism, opposing views or debate styles it could develop into a cultish sort of brainwashing. If spaces exist to discuss important civil issues and reforms to society, shouldn't said hubs for ideas be open to outside input? Criticism and viewpoints? Otherwise its more like going to church
TselkeNoddles 2 weeks ago
@TselkeNoddles Is sharing experiences of oppression the same thing as discussing reforms to society? No. When we're talking about sexism, women don't NEED people saying "But are you sure? I don't think that was sexism I think it was x y z" because it's really undermining and belittling. Exclusionary spaces are vital for oppressed groups to raise their consciousness and find ways to cope in a prejudiced society. ~ Jenn
ThosePeskyDames 2 weeks ago
@ThosePeskyDames Actually yes, said women do need ways of asking if some things are sexism or not. Or else literally anything can be determined and labeled sexism if you have a controlled group acting as an echo chamber agreeing with one another over and over again. It would be similar to a very right wing religious group all telling each other that every little action of society was a threat to their culture... but no outside input or dissent was allowed... see what I mean?
TselkeNoddles 2 weeks ago
@TselkeNoddles I fail to see how a man would be automatically qualified to know what is sexist or not, it's not like a cult, there is no "outside perspective", unless you see all women only spaces as inherently misandrist?
ofcoursec34 1 week ago
@ofcoursec34 I see all women only spaces, as not being inherently "women only," because I suspect women who disagree with the ideological perspective are banned as well.
TselkeNoddles 1 week ago
@TselkeNoddles This discussion is going nowhere - nobody is changing their minds so this is a bit pointless. I'm going to ask you nicely to end it here or take your debate elsewhere. ~ Jenn
ThosePeskyDames 1 week ago
@ofcoursec34 Also why would anyone, male or female have an exclusive inherent knowledge of what is and isn't sexism?
TselkeNoddles 1 week ago
@TselkeNoddles (I don't know what happened to my post so I'm sorry if I'm repeating myself): NO ONE HAS, but if anyone has a bigger chance of correctly determining whether or not something is sexist it is surely the one who was THERE. A male perspective isn't needed because it isn't meant as a political forum primarily but as a form of support-group. Support groups need to create a safe environment for those in need of support, a safe space. This is done with both genders.
ofcoursec34 1 week ago
@ofcoursec34 There for what? How does said person objectively determine if something was sexist by going to a group of people that have already determined that X, Y, and Z is sexism, and anyone who does not agree is not welcome. It seems like a bad idea because it perpetuates a specific outlook and mentality without any critical thought or analysis. What if some women and men do not agree that such and such is sexism? What then?... their wrong and your right? Talk about dogma.
TselkeNoddles 1 week ago
@TselkeNoddles "and anyone who does not agree is not welcome" No, anyone who denies that sexism exists isn't welcome. Anyone that does so is part of the opression, and therefore not appropriate in a "safe-space", whatever their gender-identity might be. And I don't really see why you seem to think that lack of male presence > the complete absence of critical thinking?
ofcoursec34 1 week ago
@ofcoursec34 So again, by your own admission, anyone who might question the groups opinion on what is and isn't sexism is not welcome. Ideologically if you come at this from a perspective of "O' I am being oppressed," that is fine, but if the only acceptable viewpoint is that you and your group are the victim of "sexist oppression," and that is the only valid ideological position, then indeed these "Womens spaces," are just ideological echo chambers... no critical analysis welcome.
TselkeNoddles 1 week ago
@TselkeNoddles It's like you're not even reading my posts, what is it you don't get about this? Do you really think that the aknowledgment of the existance of sexism in our society constitutes an extreme "ideological position"?
ofcoursec34 1 week ago
@ofcoursec34 Yes, such "acknowledgment" does indeed constitute an extreme ideological position. The word "sexism" is problematic in the first place. Not everybody agrees on WHAT it is, let alone that is even IS at all. . .
And that is only for starters.
fidelbogen 21 hours ago 3
@fidelbogen "Sexism, also known as gender discrimination or sex discrimination, is defined as prejudice or discrimination based on sex; or behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex."
ofcoursec34 20 hours ago
I find this video sexist and insulting.
ThreeCamels 3 weeks ago in playlist Videoblogs
@ThreeCamels Because it's sexist for an oppressed group to sometimes want to have a space to talk without anyone else? No. It's necessary. I am fed up with men getting arsey over being excluded from one space, for a limited amount of time. The idea you have a right to participate in every discussion ever even when it does not concern you reeks of privilege and I have no time for it. ~ Jenn
ThosePeskyDames 3 weeks ago
@ThosePeskyDames You keep on saying that men dominate conversations, and that women are more passive in conversation. You say that men mean this and women are like this when really you are categorizing people. You should be looking at each person as an individual instead of labeling everyone. I am a male, I am also chronically shy living with S.A.D, I have faced extreme adversity just like most people. So when I say I find this sexist and insulting, I mean that in the worst way. ~ Benjamin
ThreeCamels 3 weeks ago
@ThreeCamels Actually she specifically said that a large amount of men in fact don't mean to do this or even realize they are doing it. Perhaps a similar gorup for men only would help you branch outin an environment that isn't the internet. Good job reaching out though.
tanithseh1011 3 weeks ago
@ThreeCamels At no point did I say that all men's lives are perfect, nor that men face no oppression whatsoever. My point is that men do not face the same gender oppression that women do. If women want a space to discuss experiences of gender oppression amongst themselves, I think that's totally fine. I'm sorry if you were insulted by my video, but I stand by what I say. I don't think I was in any way sexist to point out differences in socialisation or the existence of privilege. ~ Jenn
ThosePeskyDames 3 weeks ago
@ThreeCamels How about you stop projecting your anxiety against women? This is where misogyny comes from a lot: men who percieve all women as rejecting them, and thus take up a hatred of women. It's really creepy to invoke your personality problems in a discussion about feminism. Go take it out on something else you crybaby.
cannedkitty 3 weeks ago
@ThosePeskyDames "White people only spaces"
yeah see it looks bad now.... equality means we are equal right? why not have spaces for everyone and ignore people you do not want to talk to?
also there is no more women oppression. Maybe only in the most backwards of places there still are, also were u brought up in the 50s or something? "women have been taught to sit down and listen etc" lol not...really
blickluke 2 weeks ago in playlist Videoblogs
@blickluke Yeah white people only spaces is bad because white people aren't an oppressed group and therefore don't need a safe space. If you don't think women are oppressed I am not going to debate this with you as it's a waste of my time. ~ Jenn
ThosePeskyDames 2 weeks ago
What would the topics of "oppression and patriarchy" entail? I'm genuinely interested.
ImperialGeorge 1 month ago in playlist Videoblogs
As a male feminist, I do admit I feel bad and excluded when I cannot go to one of these groups, because to me they sound so interesting. However, I do recognize my privilege, and I do understand many women will be quiet if I am there; therefore I am in favor of these female only spaces. I wish we could do without them, but I understand why we need them.
Love the video; love the issues you brought up.
Jessethegoodwitch 1 month ago in playlist Videoblogs 5
Thank you so much! ~ Jenn
ThosePeskyDames 1 month ago
Comment removed
j1mmyZeta 20 hours ago
I love your videos, and I'm wondering if it would be ridiculous to ask you to put english subs :(
senhoraamirim 1 month ago in playlist Videoblogs
@senhoraamirim Not ridiculous at all! We really need to add captions, it's terrible that we've gone without this long without making the channel accessible. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be as easy as it should be though. Will speak to the other Dames and see if we can get it sorted asap.
somekindofbecca 1 month ago
@senhoraamirim Not at all! I normally post a transcript for my videos to my tumblr - I'll work on that and have it posted by the end of the week and will try and tackle the subs too. ~ Jenn
ThosePeskyDames 1 month ago
Most space is already gendered.
Making declarations of women only is useful when it subverts gendered space.
sWeepingsAnd 1 month ago
@sWeepingsAnd I agree with you that plenty of space is already gendered. Would you class a women only consciousness raising group as a subversion of gendered space? ~ Jenn
ThosePeskyDames 1 month ago
Just don't call your group "Students for a Non-Sexist Society."
scottandrewhutchins 1 month ago in playlist Videoblogs
@scottandrewhutchins Any comments along the lines of 'feminists are sexist' will get deleted. I do not have time for that argument. ~ Jenn
ThosePeskyDames 1 month ago 2
@ThosePeskyDames I didn't say that you are sexist. It was a reference to the film _Higher Learning_, in which a women's only group called themselves "Students for a Non-Sexist Society," which of course gets them confronted.
scottandrewhutchins 1 month ago
@scottandrewhutchins In that case I heartily apologise, have never seen the film so didn't get your reference! ~ Jenn
ThosePeskyDames 1 month ago
@ThosePeskyDames It's fine to have a women's only group as long as you don't give it a name like the organization in the movie had.
scottandrewhutchins 1 month ago
If one of the reasons for excluding men is that their presence would affect the women there just by being there, is completely allowing trans women reasonable? Some trans women can pass just fine, but others are distinctly masculine. Should there be a test of how feminine you look? What about androgynous cis women? I'm sure butch lesbians could make femme straight women uncomfortable too. If an androgynous gay man could sit quietly, it doesn't seem like such an issue with the standards in place.
GoingRampant 1 month ago
@GoingRampant There is a difference between people who present as male and supposedly "masculine" or androgynous people who present as female. There are also two reasons for the exclusion of men from these groups, 1) the tendency for men to dominate conversation and speak over women, often without even realising they are doing so, and 2) the way having men present may affect the women in feeling comfortable to voice their opinions.
somekindofbecca 1 month ago
@GoingRampant Feminist groups who exclude transwomen sometimes do so by arguing that anyone raised male, regardless of the gender identity, carries with them male privilege that may still lead them to dominate conversations. However anyone who now presents as female, regardless of how they were raised, may experience female oppression. We also can't assume anything about the differing experiences of trans* people compared to those raised in the gender they naturally identify with.
somekindofbecca 1 month ago
@GoingRampant Male privilege is the issue, not the appearance of masculinity. ~ Jenn
ThosePeskyDames 1 month ago
@ThosePeskyDames Trans women, being women, don't experience nor benefit from male privilege. It isn't truly a women's space unless trans women are allowed.
blueJgrrl 1 month ago in playlist Videoblogs
We discussed in a class whether women only wagons in the public transport are a way to stop harrassment. The idea behind it is neat, but also shows the society's inability to protect women from harrasment. I hope one day we don't need such spaces because women REALLY can talk freely. Feminism also needs to focus on men and encourage those men who are awesome by supporting us :)
ledzepgirl92 1 month ago
But is excluding men going to solve the fundamental problem of women letting others dominate the discussion? won't those same women just let the more confident women dominate the discussion now that men aren't around? isn't unwillingness to present your opinions in the presence of stronger personalities more that just a women only problem? isn't that unfair to any men who share your beliefs and suffer the same problem?
SallyXSwing 1 month ago in playlist Videoblogs
@SallyXSwing Yes, there will probably be some women who then dominate the discussion, but it removes the power imbalance and makes it easier for everyone to have a say. Men may share the same beliefs but they do not in any way face the same kind of oppression/discrimination that women do. ~ Jenn
ThosePeskyDames 1 month ago
@ThosePeskyDames aren't you saying that men are inherently more powerful then women?
and i've never really felt oppressed in society as a woman, im sorry to say. ive felt oppressed as a homosexual, and i've felt oppressed as a girl who occasionally cross-dresses. and i grew up in a highly patriarchal conservative christian family. but if ever i feel oppressed in society, it's something that a male could face in similar circumstances.
i should really stop there. no offense.
SallyXSwing 1 month ago
@SallyXSwing I don't think Jenn is saying that men are inherently more powerful than women but that they are afforded more power by society and are socialised to be more confident in voicing their opinions and expecting them to be listened to. This won't be true of all men, but it is a social norm.
Also, while I think it's great that you have never felt oppressed as a woman, the "I've never felt oppressed by "x" therefore it isn't a problem" argument is rather derailing, as many women have.
somekindofbecca 1 month ago
@somekindofbecca my point was that you're kind of holding a double standard. you are both creating an unfair expectation for men, and removing dominant male personalities doesn't solve the problem of submissive female personalities. but if a handful of women dominate the conversation, that's okay, cause they're women, right?
SallyXSwing 1 month ago
@SallyXSwing Removing dominant male voices may not instantly solve quiet or unconfident female voices however it does provide an environment where there is more room for them to find an opening to voice their opinion and speak up without being spoken over, as often happens in mixed gender groups.
Yes more confident women may still dominate discussion but this is where it is up to the group to do all they can to ensure the shyer members are able to speak up too, perhaps through facilitation.
somekindofbecca 1 month ago
@SallyXSwing I don't see how this is setting a double standard or creating an unfair expectation for men?
somekindofbecca 1 month ago
@SallyXSwing Oppression is also about more than personal experiences of oppression. A person may never feel themselves to be oppressed and yet still occupy a less powerful position in society because of the social dynamics of privilege. For example a woman may not feel oppressed for not having the vote, because she may not believe that women should have the vote, yet she is still in a socially less powerful position regardless.
somekindofbecca 1 month ago
@somekindofbecca well, i mean, theres obviously female problems, i.e. slut shaming, but i feel like a lot of feminists are unempathetic to male problems i.e. virgin shaming. most feminists seem to believe that gender inequalities never hurt men, they only ever hurt women, which is demonstrably wrong. so while there are problems with how women are treated in society, i never feel like theres significantly less problems with how men are treated. which is why i'm not a "feminist".
SallyXSwing 1 month ago
@SallyXSwing The myth that most feminists are anti-men or don't care about male or non-female gender struggles is hugely derailing and one that plagues these discussions. While this may be true of some feminists, it is unfair to assume it is true of most, and it certainly hasn't been my experience at all.
However, whilst there are clearly issues of gender which do affect and disadvantage men, such as virgin shaming, permission to display emotion, hyper-masculinity etc they are not... cont
somekindofbecca 1 month ago
@SallyXSwing ... systematically oppressed by society in the way that women are. If you disagree I would ask you to consider the percentage of women in positions of power, e.g. in government, as CEOs & senior execs, & the under-representation & negative representation of women in the media.
It is also not the responsibility of women to discuss these issues, although they are relevant to the wider feminist movement; however I would welcome groups of men who wanted to meet to discuss these issues.
somekindofbecca 1 month ago
@somekindofbecca so how, exactly, are women systematically oppressed by society?
SallyXSwing 1 month ago
@SallyXSwing This video is not the place to discuss if feminism is necessary, should it exist, is it valid, etc. etc. Comments which are not related to the topic will be removed. Google is at your disposal (as are many feminist websites) if you wish to learn more about feminism. I would be happy to direct you to some useful sites. ~ Jenn
ThosePeskyDames 1 month ago
I have not studied much in the area of feminism or gender-specification, but I think there are many areas that are already women-only spaces. I've worked in a daycare and a lingerie shop. In both places the staff was entirely female and although I never saw a man specifically discriminated against, they were not openly invited to join in those environments. I worry that the more we categorize areas and spaces as gender-specific, the more we perpetuate gender profiling and discrimination.
shannonlwilliams 1 month ago in playlist Videoblogs
@shannonlwilliams There is a difference between a lingerie store and a women only discussion group. Shutting men out of one room for an hour does not, in my opinion, count as discrimination. ~ Jenn
ThosePeskyDames 1 month ago
@ThosePeskyDames Fair enough, and I am not opposed to women-only groups. My concern is when an hour discussion group becomes more; an organization, a collective, a career field or business. The more we support the idea that only someone similar to me can understand or welcome my free express, the more discrimination will flourish in society.
shannonlwilliams 1 month ago
In Jerusalem, a secular Palestinian group set up an area to discuss 'the oppression and discrimination of their people by policies of the Israeli state'. They decide that no Jews should be allowed into this area, even Jews who are sympathetic to their outlook, stressing that they have nothing against Jews, just certain policies of the Israeli state, and they fear that the presence of a Jew may prevent quieter Palestinians from speaking their mind.
What would the outside world make of that?
dunnededunnedunne 1 month ago
@dunnededunnedunne I think it's a very different issue and one I don't feel I know enough about to comment. ~ Jenn
ThosePeskyDames 1 month ago
In my college there is a women's only space, however the rules were changed to allow gay men into the space only. I was just wondering how you would feel about this. It was explained that since gay men wouldn't objectify women that it's alright for them to be around and included in the space.
Stephen3132 1 month ago in playlist Videoblogs
@Stephen3132 I have mixed feelings about this. Maybe I'm alone in this experience, but I have been objectified by gay men. Chalk it up to immaturity, but I've known gay men who thought that their preference gave them license to touch, grab, or discuss any part of my anatomy without my approval because they were not sexually attracted to me so therefore it shouldn't offend me. I did not appreciate this distinction and was chastised as a prude because of it.
shannonlwilliams 1 month ago in playlist Videoblogs
@shannonlwilliams Yeah that's what I thought too. Though I guess I'll never use the space anyway :p I just thought it was silly having a female space open to gay men as well. Maybe it works for them though.
Stephen3132 1 month ago
@Stephen3132 I personally wouldn't include gay men in a women only space, given that they still have male privilege and are, well, male. I think @shannonlwilliams makes a good point that being gay and male doesn't automatically mean you have no problematic attitudes towards women. ~ Jenn
ThosePeskyDames 1 month ago 7
@ThosePeskyDames That reminds of this unbearably sexist homosexual male that was once on Project Runway...gay men are STILL MALE
chinjewel1 3 weeks ago in playlist Videoblogs
Another benefit to women's only spaces: if women wish to discuss personal issues (anything from rape and sex abuse to gynecological issues), they may naturally feel more comfortable in a woman only space. PS: You're amazing! Consider me subscribed.
authoress1 1 month ago in playlist Videoblogs
Do gentlemen clubs (men only clubs) exist? I'm just asking a quick question because if they still do (and I would expect that they do, strictly from a free market perspective) then women-only spaces are perfectly fine.
From a strictly gender studies perspective I'm 100% for it.
piecharthosen 1 month ago in playlist Videoblogs
@piecharthosen I imagine they do, yes, brilliant point! I think in the UK some golf clubs still don't allow women (lol what the hell). ~ Jenn
ThosePeskyDames 1 month ago
It's not an issue of cis-privilege, its about whether or not you agree that women-born-women ("cis") are classifiable as a social class. It's something to consider when we talk about 'women-only' spaces. Mainstream feminism in general should be an umbrella movement inclusive of men and transgendered people. Women only spaces are necessary but are still broad. Just as there should be "women of color only spaces" and "transfeminist only spaces", wbw deserve their space as well.
cannedkitty 1 month ago
@cannedkitty Hi, although I agree that the definition of 'woman' is relevant to a discussion of women only spaces, if Jenn has politely asked that we steer away from this topic I think you should. If you would like to continue the discussion though, my TPD video from Monday (that Jenn mentions in the video) was explicitly about this issue, so I'm happy to move the discussion into the comments there. You can find it in our "Women Only Spaces" playlist on the channel page.
somekindofbecca 1 month ago
@cannedkitty Also, just FYI, a preferable term to "women-born-women", other of course than cis, would be "Female Assigned At Birth" or FAAB for short. This is because "women-born-women" implies the gendering of certain body parts, and implies that transwomen only became women by identifying as trans. This also accounts for intersex people who were assigned and raised as female, without having a clearly defined biological sex.
somekindofbecca 1 month ago
I have both a comment and a question.
Though I have studied feminist theory somewhat, I have not come across the term "cisgendered" till now. Am I to understand that you are a (insert whatever sexual orientation here) White Female and you match with this identify by feeling it internally? This was not clear to me in the post and I would just like to be clear that I have understood the meaning.
Also, what types of Women-only spaces do you propose?
And you have such long elegant hair.
kazetrigger 1 month ago
@kazetrigger Hi, cisgendered means that you identify with the gender you were assigned at birth and raised as. This will often mean people with vaginas who identify as women, or people with penises who identify as men, as these are the typical biological assignments of gender; however this could also include intersex people who identify with the gender they were assigned and raised as.
This is to contrast with trans* people who do not identify with the gender they were assigned at birth.
somekindofbecca 1 month ago
@kazetrigger I am indeed a cis white female (cis according to @somekindofbecca's description below). I don't propose a set type of women only space, I think they can and should vary. Thank you, I hope I've answered your questions! ~ Jenn
ThosePeskyDames 1 month ago
@ThosePeskyDames Thank you. That does clear things up. If I were back in the UK, we should go for coffee. XD Opinionated women are awesome. Thanks for your insight into the issue of women-only spaces, which I am also for. I sometimes feel that feminism has taken on this anti-men slant, but that's not at all what it ought to be, so hopefully future research and fair opinions prevail to give women and everyone else the benefits and equality they seek.
kazetrigger 1 month ago
As far as I know - and correct me if I am wrong - there are plenty of women only spaces in Muslim countries, and I never saw those countries score very high in Gender Equality Studies. In my opinion segregation is a very dangerous tool and should be used with utmost caution. I wonder if it is really useful in changing the collective mindset of our nation/culture/mankind for the better.
Nimmermaer 1 month ago
@Nimmermaer You are confusing women's right to assemble and discuss issue without the intrusion of male opinion, and the forced exclusion of women from society as happens in a number in theocratic nations.
cannedkitty 1 month ago
I guess it was a matter of time before MRA goons and racist trolls would find this channel. Lest we let this channel become just another endless circle of internet bickering then it is probably good we not get into digressive, yet-again 'arguments' with the privilege/patriarchy deniers. I hope the moderators spotted the race baiting red flag a few comments below.
Just a suggestion...
cannedkitty 1 month ago
@cannedkitty We actually attracted some triggering MRA comments in our third week when we discussed Slut Shaming. We did a whole week on online harassment and comment moderation the week after as a response. If you're interested you can see both discussions in our weekly playlists on the channel page.
Basically though, we each moderate our own videos. I'm sure Jenn will be on it if anything is said that violates our safe space policy.
somekindofbecca 1 month ago
if there are "women only" spaces can we also have "men only" spaces?
mexicanmayhem88 1 month ago in playlist Videoblogs
@mexicanmayhem88I don't think they're as needed as women-only spaces, given that they're intended to be a safe space away from oppression. ~ Jenn
ThosePeskyDames 1 month ago in playlist Videoblogs 4
@mexicanmayhem88 If you feel you need them in order to have an intimate/personal/honest discussion about the experience of being male, then yes.
sheschasingtornadoes 1 month ago in playlist Women Only Spaces
I waver on the line between yes and no. The one point I want to make is that when the five loud men are removed from the room, five loud women will take their place rather than everyone suddenly freely voicing her thoughts. There will always be people who are comfortable speaking up and those who aren't as comfortable. Maybe smaller group discussions are a better solution.
superhappyjen 1 month ago in playlist Videoblogs
@superhappyjen I agree that removing male members doesn't stop people dominating discussion - but I do think it removes the unequal power dynamic in said discussion :) awesome name by the way! ~ Jenn
ThosePeskyDames 1 month ago in playlist Videoblogs
I mean, whats the point of having a womens only space when the women in that space have been living in a patriarichal mindset for all of their life, and are immersed/heavily influenced by patriarichal frames of reference, whether in allegiance with or in reaction to patriarichal ideas. Its not like your gonna escape it in a 'womens only' zone if its in your brains already.
I think you should have 'feminist only' zones instead, and let any female, transgender or male feminists participate. imo
roryphelan 1 month ago in playlist Videoblogs
@roryphelan I think the point of the Women Only Space is they are a place to challenge the internalized patriarchal views and how they are in your brain rather than to escape from it (as you say, if it's in your mind you can't leave patriarchy at the door). There is normally that sort of agenda to the consciousness raising meetings. But other Women Only Spaces may be for discussions of other experiences, other than patriarchy, such as during the Aldermaston protests.
sheschasingtornadoes 1 month ago in playlist Women Only Spaces
Seems like a biy of a no-brainer really, if one social group is dominated by another then it makes sense that they'd want a space apart from the other in which to discuss this. I'm kind of surprised that this is seen as some kind of controversy. I'm a man and feel it'd be nice of we could get to a place someday where there's not this "I'm a female, you're a male" divide and this distinction is constantl;y the first thing we notice about one another. But right now it is, so there we go.
ConfusedGender 1 month ago in playlist Videoblogs 12
I agree women-only spaces are awesome and necessary, but I find the "identifies as woman" requirement problematic, as you yourself pointed out. The inclusion of gender-queer individuals who face oppression because the society categorizes them as women is important when talking about both misogyny and the problematic nature of gender binary (which is a [cis-]patriarchic construct, so blaming trans* people for "reinforcing" it is bullshit). My £0.02
MissOuJ 1 month ago in playlist Videoblogs
@MissOuJ I think your opinion is much more valuable than 2p, I agree entirely. Sadly mainstream feminism still has a long way to go on the inclusion front, but I'm hopeful we'll get there. ~ Jenn
ThosePeskyDames 1 month ago
I agree with everything you said. Where I live I can see many places that are full of men but women are nowhere to be seen and I started wondering why there aren't any places where only women can meet. We need these places, we need women to get together and talk because it makes us strong.
Menimia 1 month ago
@Menimia Women only places are a wonderful thing to experience, the sense of solidarity is so supportive & encouraging! ~ Jenn
ThosePeskyDames 1 month ago
Sorry if I offended, I was just upset at the douchebag sack thing.
therealoreolemon 1 month ago
hay!sack of privilege,really? just because a person has a pair of testicles doesn't make them a rolling tank of confidence, who is prone to douchebaggery. Isn't that sexist? Some people might be that way but that doesn't mean you should assume things. Instead of creating no men allowed parties to help feel less intimidated wouldn't it be easier and a lot less of a hassle to just hangout with friends?
After typing I saw “AkivaII’s” beautiful typed Q. that summed up what I meant but posted anyway.
therealoreolemon 1 month ago
@therealoreolemon I didn't say all men are overconfident idiots. Having male privilege doesn't make you a bad person - it's just we all have to aware of our privileges and try and recognise when they're influencing our opinions. Hanging out with my friends is a very different thing to sitting down specifically to talk about women's oppression. I don't see the problem with women occasionally wanting to sit down without men to discuss issues with pertain specifically to them. ~ Jenn
ThosePeskyDames 1 month ago 7
@ThosePeskyDames fair enough.
therealoreolemon 1 month ago
I think the main reason feminists had a problem with transexuals is because they (tend to?) reinforce gender roles. A male to female transexual behaves and dresses like a stereotypical female and vice versa for the female to male transexual. Whether or not transexuality exists completely BECAUSE of they heavily enforced gender roles of society is difficult to figure out.
Zaknafiein 1 month ago in playlist Videoblogs
@Zaknafiein This is a total generalisation. :|
CuriousVirga 1 month ago in playlist Videoblogs
@Zaknafiein I understand you probably didn't mean it to be, but this comment reads as fairly transphobic. I don't think trans-identities reinforce gender roles, gender is a very fluid thing and people can experience it and express it in lots of different ways. ~ Jenn
ThosePeskyDames 1 month ago
@ThosePeskyDames When you read what I wrote, you probably imagined some venom in my tone, but there wasn't I was just writing my speculation to see what others have to say. I am not against Transsexuals, and definitely not any transgenders, but I AM against gender roles. Men don't have to behave "manly", women don't have to wear make up, dresses, skirts, if they did they would be born wearing them. But society violently enforces gender roles, more-so in other places in the US.
Zaknafiein 1 month ago
@Zaknafiein I still have to say that this is not the place for a discussion about trans-issues and, respectfully, could we all stay on topic. ~ Jenn
ThosePeskyDames 1 month ago
@ThosePeskyDames Trans-identities don't reinforce gender roles, they *hinge* on them. The very notion of 'transgenderism' is acknowledgement of gender expression as a hardwired biological mechanism, that there is a "right" gender and "wrong" gender for a person. The danger in this is that ideas of femininity are reinforced. It's troubling that radical feminists once again have their voices suppressed by throwing the 'transphobic' label around like this.
cannedkitty 1 month ago
@cannedkitty I think cis-people don't get to question trans-identities, or their origins, at all - we don't know what that kind of dysphoria is like. It's just not cis-people's place to insist trans-identities are the result of the patriarchy. We don't know what it's like to be in that position. Any future comments of this nature will be deleted - you are making this space potentially unsafe for trans-people (plus this is all very off topic). ~ Jenn
ThosePeskyDames 1 month ago
@ThosePeskyDames Wow you really really misread me or I didn't explain very well. Trans-identity was not being questioned whatsoever. Gender roles are, and questioning them is a fundamental tenant of feminism.There are people who are absolutely born disassociated and uncomfortable with their 'assigned' sex, usually because the gender role..(cont)
cannedkitty 1 month ago
@ThosePeskyDames (cont)...doesn't match the anatomical sex. People should be able to be who they want and choose the shade of their gender expression without fear of violence, discrimination or hatred. I briefly dated a transwoman and support LGBT across the board. I'm not coming from the right wing here. And it is relevant to the topic as you brought up transgenders in women only spaces and I'm telling you feminists will disagree on who can and cannot be a woman.
cannedkitty 1 month ago
*Please excuse the taboo nature of the question; it's intention is not to be cheeky nor offensive, rather it stems from a curiousity as to how people form principles and deal with implications.
Are you willing to extend your advocacy for the right to create "Women only spaces", additionally to the right to create "Men/White/Black/Religious/etc, only spaces"? If I understand correctly, what you are advocating, despite it in this case it not being contraversial, is discrimination.
Respectfully.
AkivaII 1 month ago in playlist Videoblogs
@AkivaII Women are an oppressed group - to have a women-only space would be to escape misogyny (or at least try to - since misogyny and oppression have been socialised into us all). Men, white people and Christians have NOTHING to escape from and nearly ALL spaces are inclusive for them already.
CuriousVirga 1 month ago in playlist Videoblogs
@CuriousVirga so~, are you saying that only non-white people non-christian females have a justified reason to go to a women-only space?
therealoreolemon 1 month ago
@CuriousVirga Excellently put. ~ Jenn
ThosePeskyDames 1 month ago
@AkivaII Any group can have their own space if they wish, I just think it's more necessary for oppressed groups (ie. women, people of colour, gender/sexual identities that have been marginalised etc.) and brings out a lot of good. Discrimination, in my view, can only happen when you have social power over the people you're discriminating against. Oppressed groups don't have that power, so the context and idea of exclusionary spaces is a bit different to discrimination. ~ Jenn
ThosePeskyDames 1 month ago
@ThosePeskyDames
Does "social power" have a specific definition in the context to which you used it?
AkivaII 1 month ago
@AkivaII If you have social power you've been privileged by society - institutions and laws are built around people like you, your views & opinions are the dominant ones and your voice will be respected and listened to over others. That's what I mean by social power. ~ Jenn
ThosePeskyDames 1 month ago
@ThosePeskyDames
If social power is an institution backed by "law" (ie. Involuntary Force), and such is what you are opposing in principle, is one then to understand that there are self identifying feminists who have the audacity to oppose legislations of Affirmative Action?
Respectfully.
AkivaII 1 month ago
@AkivaII I'm afraid I can't make sense of your point. ~ Jenn
ThosePeskyDames 1 month ago
@ThosePeskyDames
The point is, if you support affirmative action, then you would be inconsistent, and If you do not, then you break the stereotypical mold "feminist" as I know it, which I think is interesting.
Though it is unfortunate that comments are removed, it is perfectly within you right, and I still offer my regards for your kind responses. Good day.
AkivaII 1 month ago
@AkivaII I appreciate your respectfulness. I do support affirmative action as I believe it's an attempt to redress the unequal balance of power between social groups. However this video is not about feminism in general/affirmative action so I would appreciate if future comments stayed on topic. ~ Jenn
ThosePeskyDames 1 month ago
Yaaaaay! Everything about this video. ^_^
somekindofbecca 1 month ago
@somekindofbecca Heh I loved yours Becca, oh lor' was I chucking at 'Vagina Scouts of America' ~ Jenn x
ThosePeskyDames 1 month ago
I always watched these on tumblr but I'll subscribe as well!
chrislasagna 1 month ago
@chrislasagna Every time you click subscribe a Dame smiles. True story. Thank you! ~ Jenn
ThosePeskyDames 1 month ago