SCA Pennsic XXXVI Clovensheild Brass Band plays Darth Vader

[r2Kd0ugernaut]

why is there always a ninja/samurai at any renaissance fest.?

[whowantsabighug]

@r2Kd0ugernaut Because people wrongly assume people will think they will look cool.

[killersushi99]

Freetime. Lots of it.

[silvermoonwolf19]

I want to fight Nissan someday...

[0DigitalGeisha0]

Okay that mademe giggle a whole bunch. I love it when people poke fun for funs sake!

[Schmitti1982]

i think its a nice interpretation of that song , i dont think about star wars when isee that its just marsh music

[silvermoonwolf19]

That's him! The samurai in red with the oni faceplate! I took a picture with him this year at Pennsic. I think his name is Nissan.

I'm an aspiring Japanese period persona and I'd love to have armor that nice.

[Blitzbane]

His full name is, indeed, Nissan Maxima, a poke in the eye for all the Scadian "proper history" nazis. See, because it IS an actual period correct name. His armor's style and coloring are also period correct to a T, but are also blindingly power-rangeresque. He is my role model n the SCA ^_^

[Marcblur]

Hail Clovenshield! Enjoy your bronze pendants from Kevin the Merciful. I am the one who made them.

[STEELPOT1]

No self-respect...So much for a warrior class.

To quote Bill the Butcher : "...new army, a few crusty bitches and a hand full of rag tags?"

[taloc00000]

oh my god, it sounds like the imperial march theme is actually a person clawing their way out of a melting pit

[wazp4]

when im old enough to fight in the SCA im going to try to get some samurai armor, because samurais>knights all day

[Alex231291]

There being no historical precedent for this, we can't really be sure. Personally, I'd say a knight would win in combat. The knight was a warrior class, whereas the Samurai were a social class. Knights (usually) wore steel plate, whereas Samurai, using and facing different weapons, wore leather and wood. The majority of Western weapons would be more than a match for these methinks, whereas the katana, facing mainly flesh, was hard, and would chip on contact with steel armour.

[scottbaioisdead]

samurai did not wear wood armour it was steel and leather, katana were not worn with yoroi, tachi were but the main weapons of the battlefield were the bow and spear

[Alex231291]

Unless we're talking about 17th century onwards here, the majority of Samurai did, indeed, use wood and leather, as steel was scarce, and good ore hard to come by in the east.

While the bow and spear were the main weapons of the Samurai, the katana is the most famed weapon, and the source of the infamous knight vs. Samurai argument, thus my reason for using the katana in my argument.

[scottbaioisdead]

please show me any historical piece of samurai armour made from wood.

[Alex231291]

The reason I can't show you is the reason why few early suits exist, leather and wood rots. There are later suits-a-plenty, ad 17th century ones began to incoroprate more and more steel, as Japan opened up more.

Just to prove my point, take a trip to your local medieval museum, you'll notice few, if any suits of any armour (western included) have their original strapping, the old ones will have rotted away.

[scottbaioisdead]

you said few so some must. where are they? which museum in japan, i'll have someone go there tomorrow. please inform me

[Alex231291]

That, you'll have to find for yourself, I've never been to Japan myself, All that I know, I know from museums around here in England.

I can tell you, however, that steel does not rot, at least not so readily, and so we are left with a fair few artifact suits of European plate, and even some maille, whereas the further east you go, the rarer artifacts become.

[scottbaioisdead]

i've never heard one person in japan ever say wood was used, i've never seen it in any museum, i've hard people with doctorates in japanese history say wood was NEVER used.

[Alex231291]

In Japan, iron ore was both rare, and of low quality, thus the reason for folding the steel for blades, in order to remove impurities.

The same went for armour, little steel meant little steel armour, as it would cost so much to produce. As a result, wood was used commonly, along with the lace binding which even you cannot deny was used.

While in the West, iron ore was common, further east it was less so, which is what led to the use of bone and wood armour. Few could afford steel.

[scottbaioisdead]

you keep saying that but no one in japan has any historian ever mentioned wood armour. everyone has said japanese never used wood armour. now back it up with real documentation or stop spreading mythology.

[Alex231291]

'Thank you for the comment about the armor plates ('sane'). Yes my statement is misleading and should be revised.

Sane, or kozane (the small plates) were made from hardened leather, metal, wood and paper (washi). Leather is most common for the older suits. '

Sourced from The Samurai Archives online forum. As it mentions, wood and leather were in use, despite your claims that wood was never used. I feel, however, that by wood, this source may have meant bamboo. Obviously, I can only speculate.

[buffon399]

And which thread of The Samurai Archives online forum?

[Alex231291]

Hey Buffon.

I can't remember exactly which thread it was, but 'twas a conversation about the uses of wood in armour, I didn't paste the whole thing, as it would have used up all my character count

As for exactly how many, and which surviving suits are around, I'm not too sure, I saw one here in England at Leeds Royal armouries one time, but it was a temporary piece which was gone on my next visit.

[buffon399]

You can PM me the link.

Basically you have nothing to prove what you said for now.

Right?

[Alex231291]

Will PM you the link once I finish this message. As for proof, I gave it in my earlier quote from the source I gave earlier.

Might I suggest we take this debate to PM's? I'm sure the people of Youtube will be getting rather tired of this bickering by now.

[Alex231291]

I suggested wooden pieces would be older, as after Japan opened it's borders, I suspect steel would have become more readily available, though thinking back, I can see why steel would have been used less, guns becoming more prevalent.

Thanks for the terminology info, 'tis not often I get to speak to someone who knows what they're talking about.

[buffon399]

After opening borders?

That's late 19 century.

I think you lack very basic knowledge of Japanese history.

[buffon399]

I want to clarify, which one are you saying?

"Whole wooden armor"

or

"Some parts were wood"

Then my answer will change.

[buffon399]

And what period?

[Alex231291]

I'm saying some parts were wood, as I just mentioned in the PM I sent a minute ago, you'll recieve it soon. Sorry for any confusion caused.

I've never claimed, nor will I ever claim to have much knowledge of Japanese history, my interest is war, and the instruments of it, in the 10th-early 17thcenturies, and certain periods before then. While I know a fair amount on European happenings, my Eastern knowledge is restricted to war, though I'm aware of multiple things, the lack of ores being one.

[buffon399]

in the 10th-early 17thcenturies

That's about Heian period to Edo period.

There's big difference between Heian period armor and Edo period armor.

So you need to specify what period armor you are talking about.

[Alex231291]

I should have mentioned I specialise in European history. Even so, we've come to a conclusion that wood was indeed used as parts of armour, have we not? That was what I meant, and intended to show I meant, through the entire debate.

I'm going to stop replying here, and will stick to PM from now on, feel free to get the last word, and we can post whatever conclusion we eventually come to, when we do. Running out of character count is rather tedious.

[BakaYaru13]

Nerd.

[BakaYaru13]

Nerd.

[Alex231291]

Now, I'd like to see some proof that wood armour was not used, and that no japanese historian has ever said it was. This is rather proposterous, considering wood was even used in Europe by those unable to afford steel, one would assume that where steel is too expensive, wood is one substitute, as would be the case in Japan, where high quality iron ores were rare.

[scottbaioisdead]

probatio diabolica. you won't see proof or a negative ever. One thing that needs to be addressed first is probably my biggest button: Japanese armour was never made of wood or bamboo. It was either leather, steel, or a combination of the two.

- nihon kacchu seisakuben

written by a member of the Nihon Katchû Bugu Kenkyû Hozon Kai with a masters in japanese history and author of 4 books on the subject of samurai military history

[Alex231291]

Then we have conflicting sources and views.

I do feel that, as wood was an abundent resource, armour would be cheap to make from wood, and so poorer Samurai would likely pick it as a cheaper option.

A quick question, if I may? Have you any idea where the Samurai got their money? Was it through their lord, or through land? I'm aware that the Samurai were a social class, and not a warrior class like the knight, so I'm sceptical as to whether they were paid it. Perhaps you could shed some light?

[buffon399]

Hi, I'm Japanese.

Alex, the wooden armor is rather newer product made for display purpose.

You said "17th century ones" it means Edo period.

People didn't use armor as armor anymore at the time.

But I suspect the armor is much newer, maybe after Meiji.

Can you tell me the name of wooden armor if the armor is really valuable antique?

You know valuable armor usually has name, for example "Iyozane Kuroitoodoshi Domarugusoku"

[bougifukumetsu]

Hi, Alex. I go along with buffon on this wooden Samurai armor thing. BTW, I'm Japanese, too.

Alex, any chance you are talking about the replica armors used for rituals or festivals? Or as buffon mentioned, for display purpose?

[Alex231291]

Hey Bougifukumetsu.

I'm talking about wood in the use of armour for war, as I've just been asked about it, I'll clarify now, I don't mean entire suits, just certain parts.

I'll admit I'm unsure on their use for rituals anf festivals.

Any chance you could PM me to continue this? I'm trying to move the argument away from the video, to avoid the character count cap.

Regards,

Alex

[bougifukumetsu]

Given that you are debating with buffon through PM, I'm gonna leave this to him. I guarantee that he has certain knowledge about this kind of stuff for now. Is that OK with you? I mean for the meantime.

[Alex231291]

That's fine, thanks for your input to the debate thus far.

Perhaps we should all meet over an instant messenger system some time to share our ideas, we all seem to have rather specialised knowledge in our own areas.

[BakaYaru13]

Nerd.

[Alex231291]

I'm sorry for not sharing your views. Perhaps I should follow your example, and be more close minded? Insulting people for not liking what you like is rather shallow, after all..

[BakaYaru13]

I'm quite a medieval enthusiast. And I LOVE star wars. But this video and the entire comment string connected to it is NERDY in the extreme. There's no denying it.

[Alex231291]

The idea is having fun. The SCA is about the experience, and the Starwars reference, a bit of fun. Nothing more, nothing less.

Again, just because you find something stupid, doesn't mean everyone else does. Insulting it is pointless.

[BakaYaru13]

I don't find it stupid. You all seem to be quite intelligent. But your intelligence is misplaced.... making you a nerd.

[Alex231291]

Again, insulting me for enjoying something you do not? Be a little more liberal.

While I'm not saying you have to enjoy this, I, myself, don't particularly like this video, as it ruins the authentic feel that the SCA should have, insulting someone for liking something you do not, is hardly fair.

[BakaYaru13]

Nerd.

[buffon399]

Then how come Japan was able to export swords to other countries?

Sword was main export products from Japan since Heian period.

And Japan exported iron to China during Shuinsen trading.

[FleetOfRetribution]

@Alex231291

The cuirass, (called a dō), consisted of two parts. One (the waidate) was a separate defense for the right side and the other part covered the rest of the wearer's trunk. The upper part of the waidate was solid iron plate covered with leather. The lower part was laminated. When dressing for battle, the waidate was put on before the rest of the cuirass and fastened with cords that tied around the body. The rest of the cuirass was also iron plate covered with leather.

[buffon399]

Samurai carried Katana with them all the time.

They just didn't use at the battles in Sengoku period because bows and matchlocks were more useful.

[buffon399]

The time Samurai really used swords for battles was Bakumatsu, like Shinsengumi.

Though they realized swords were useless in the battle of Toba-Fushimi.

There are many videos of Shinsengumi movies on Youtube.

[FleetOfRetribution]

@Alex231291

Ō-Yoroi first appeared in the 10th Century. Samurai armor being "Wood and Leather" is a complete misconception. Samurai wore Lamellar Armour which was usually a mixture of strips of lacquered leather and iron. The O-Yoroi, for instance, mixed Lamellar and Plate armour.

[JaredSavoy]

OMG So out of tune and so many wrong notes! This is terrible and a disgusting excuse for music haha, nice try though.... keep practicing.

[wazp4]

Samurais>Knights and thats a fact, i liked that samurais armor, especially the mask. i would have painted it a darker red though.....

[HammerHeavy]

That's flippin Sweet!

[deathknight246810]

Yeah!!! samurais are permited too!!

[AndyRoddick969]

what is this called? i saw a bunch of people out at my university doing this.

[ayn0612]

lol

[SpanishInAustralia]

I MAKE ARMORS WITH TITANIUM FOR SPECIAL AND RARE CUSTOMERS IS SO EXPENSIVE 13 $ PER KILO

AND THE ARMOR DEPENDS THE MODEL CAN BE 10 KILOS TO 30 BUT WORK WITH TITANIUM IS THE MOST

EXPENSIVE THING I HAVE TO USE ESPECIAL TOOLS

AND ESPECIAL OVEN TO MAKE TITANIUM IN LIQUID

1668 °C 3034 °F (Melting point)

3287 °C 5949 °F (Boiling point)

I USE iodide, or crystal bar, process TO MAKE SURE TITANIUM STILL PURE

PRICE OF THAT ARMORS CAN BE $ 30000 TO UP $ 90000 NORMALLY I WORK WITH NORMAL MATERIALS

[oliruggy]

who's funeral is it?

[awesome3468]

new army of darthfarther?

[killer22312]

theres always try to make samurai armour with plastic

[vityamafia]

That samurai is so sick.

I totally wanna get armour like that.

Except paint it all white.

[jwinnington]

What. Did all you guys just loose the battle. That was pathetic.

[squigoth]

LOL the band was playing like that on purpose. (Dark Humor). We were actually on our way to the field battle were we proceeded to kicked butt in all three battles with minimal casualties...

Im in the black and red armor with the kettle hat by the way :-)

[Malavern]

rofl...

[bladedesoul]

All hail Lord Vaydoor of the shire of mortis star

[broodwarcd]

interested in an alto sax? lol if i can get my rig together i might see some of ya up there...but as im new its a bad chance

[gamefox120]

Im thinking of joining the sca too

if they will let me be a samurai that would be awesome!

[ryolove945321]

lol i do belive that in japan there equilavent of a knight was a samuri. thats why he's a samuri, cus he can be =-p.

[squigoth]

""why is he dressed as a samuri?! This is knight territory!!!!!""

LOL, don't tell him (Nissan) that. He'd probably hit you with a stick before the whole household beat you to a pulp (in a freindly kind of way)...

RoaK

[vampjyn]

Too cool!

[Squattingcat]

dude i saw them walking and i just stoped and gave them an ovation. lol

[Alejan2]

Nissan-dono looks incredible. Tis even cooler ith the music. Right on!

[Darter02]

LOL... you guys ROCK!

[prairieteri]

i heard this from the merchants area and it cracked us up

[meliketrolleys]

Glad you enjoyed it! - - Nicholas the trumpeter