Human rights declaration 'under threat' - 10 Dec 08

[AnarchoSyndicalistt]

I have to wonder how widows and fatherless children who are now vulnerable to human trafficking. Are they being protected from such predators.

[familiadiaynoche1]

people wake up...look loose change,terrorwar and zeitgeist and goddamn wake up...xx

[deedee1067]

Fairness and equal rights for all !

[sukh2010]

after watching this clip,.....i can only say 1 damn thing to the pple on earth. And that is,.........the gods are coming soon!whoever or watever or from whereever or jesus christ!

pple on earth will be like,omg! looking up in

the sky.

[WolYou]

sukh2010: Your claim has been uttered countless times throughout history and it never happened. youre watching too much tv.

[TaskiyahEmaani]

you know what mieroth, if it hadnt been for Allah i would probably fallen for these pathetic liers just like you, how rewarding research is.

instead of having me believe such a joke you solidified my previous stance and now i know ALL these "modern reformists" are nothing but people who rely on lies and word twisting to make their point.

Allahu akbar :)

[mieroth]

Modern reformists exist all throughout the Islamic world. They are not just making new stuff up. They are re-interpreting old texts since language evolves over time and culture influences religion, whether you believe it or not. You can believe whatever in the world you want to, but at least you don't deny that reformists exist. :)

[TaskiyahEmaani]

what difference does it even make if i recognize that "reformists" exsist? i know they exsisit thats why im speaking against them, that dosnt make them right however.

islam isnt easily bought as christianity, i think its about time you get that :)

[TaskiyahEmaani]

want the evidence? i'll give it you.

"the meaning of the verb hit can be used to mean "turn the face away" with one condition: to be followed by the words Al-Zikr Safha الذكر صفحا; otherwise it cant be used as such, the verse in the quran has no such al zikr so for it to turn out as "turn away" only makes you look like and idiot who dosnt known arabic"

If that was the meaning to turn away from her, then the meaning is repeated, since the first step in punishment is to leave.

[TaskiyahEmaani]

very nice trick putting up the violence card but unfortunatly for you its not working.

why on earth would non muslim women in the west (and the east) who suposedly live in countries where they are given total equality leave all these "freedoms" and become muslims in their THOUSANDS?

and how stupid do you think muslim women are? why would they want to stay in a religion that gives men absoloute authority to inslave them?

use ur head plz

[mieroth]

How have I played the "violence card?" I know perfectly well what Arab societies interpret that passage in the Koran as being.

And, ironically, the version of the Koran many of these Western women are reading include the term "avoid" instead of "beat." ;) Feel free to look it up yourself.

[TaskiyahEmaani]

i have looked it up and you're wrong perhaps you should pick up a quran and have a read before you speak of matters which you have no knowledge to.

[mieroth]

Are you living in a hole? How can you not have heard of this debate? This is the translation found in a popular translated version in the USA by Laleh Bakhtiar. It was published by the USA's oldest muslim publishers. It was highly controversial. Other Islamic scholars have also supported her (whilst others have not). Kuwaiti Islamic scholar, Tariq Suwaidan, is one of the supporters of this translation too. Look him up.

[TaskiyahEmaani]

i couldnt care less who laleh bakhtiar is, Allah revealed the quran to our prophet not to some person in america who less then half the muslim world knows. who is she edit a book which she isnt qualified to "interpret"?

she dosnt even wear the hijab and then she seeks to translate the world's most widely read scripture?, its like saying im going to cook a gourmet dinner whilst knowing absoloutly nothing about food.

what type of foolishness is that, obviously you dont hesitate to follow it.

[mieroth]

She isn't editing a book. She's providing an alternative translation of the SAME WORD. Language evolves over time - as does the meaning of words. And Laleh dresses very modestly. So what if she doesn't wear a hijab? There is no mention in the Koran of wearing headgear - only that you should dress modestly! And interpretation of this varies from culture to culture. You must be a part of the Arab culture. Are you disagreeing with Tariq Suwaidan too? He's an Islamic scholar. A man with great views

[TaskiyahEmaani]

im disagreing with everyone who claims to take on a role which is not theirs, i dont care who he or she is, as fare as im concerned they have not been given that authority. we already have an interpretation of the quran and we dont need it to become as complicated as the christian bible.

thanks but no thanks, im comfortable as i now :)

[mieroth]

Are you listening? Some Islamic scholars have interpreted the translation to mean "beat." Some Islamic scholars have interpreted the translation to mean "avoid." BOTH are interpreting it, albeit differently. But you, like most extremists, think the translation used in your CULTURE is the right one and the only right one. You cannot see past that. And what happens? Conflicts arise. Wake up please. It's the 21st century. Believe what you want to believe and don't tell others what to believe.

[TaskiyahEmaani]

lol im not even from arabia and our culture is not even known for abaya's and niqabs so your argument that this is some sort of a cultural thing falls flat on its face :)

im not telling you what to believe, im telling you to stay out of what WE believe and not bring in your western interpretations into our religion.

islam is perfect as it is and we sure dont need you or laleh bakhtier to give us a western spin on the quran.

once again thanks but no thanks :)

[mieroth]

Tariq Suwaidan is from KUWAIT which lies nowhere near the West. But if denial works for you... :)

[TaskiyahEmaani]

lol no wonder you're only able to name people like laleh bakhtier and suwaidan, in order not to be biased and speak of something im not entirely familiar with (unlike you), i aqtully took the time to research this hero of yours.

turns out that our kuwaiti buddy here is american taugh, at first i thought that the whole "turn away" facarde might have had some authenticity but in reality suwaidan and bakhtier delibratly ignored the origional meaning and changed it from "hit" to "turn away".

[mieroth]

Pfft. He is not American. He only studied in the US. He currently lives in Kuwait and is a very popular and well-respected Islamic scholar. So your attempts to dismiss him as being "American" will not work. He studied Islamic literature in his youth and later life. In the US he studied engineering so I hardly count that as being "taught" in the USA in the way you mean it. Besides, these two people have nothing to do with each other. Coincidence?

[TaskiyahEmaani]

i didnt "dismiss" him i said he ignored the origional meaning delibratly and made his own version of the text, i dont know which is worse being americanized or bieng thick enough to mistranslate a word which is in your own tongue.

im not going to "deny" he's a respected figure in the middle east, i myself admired his speaking until you pointed out his disgrace in purposefully misreading the quran for what every reason he has.

either way the text dosnt say "avoid" so get over it plz

[TaskiyahEmaani]

oh and i bet you didnt know this either, acording to the shariah NO WOMEN is religiously or logically bound to take any sort of violence from her husband.

she can take her husband to court for causing bodily harm and if succesful he'll recieve equaly messure of the pain he caused.

"I recommend that you treat women with goodness. The best of you are those who treat their wives the best." Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him)

[mieroth]

Exactly. So it is a contradiction. Which is why it makes more sense for it to be "avoid" instead of "beat." :)

But hey, if that's how you interpret it I won't stop you... it's your belief... :)

[TaskiyahEmaani]

the second step is to seperate in bed (and by now any wife who has the slighest emotion or love for her husband would desist her harmful ways) and if that dosnt work the verse says "beat them" scholars have unanomously agreed that this is not a beating but a light tap, but ofcourse what most unaware people do is take things out of context. the verse has been explained by the prophet (pbuh) himself not a bruise, scratch , fracture or any type of bleeding should result from this light tap.

[mieroth]

Or it has been translated from Arabic from old texts to mean "avoid." You're again not listening to what I'm saying.

[TaskiyahEmaani]

"This "religion devoted to purity" rubbish is why the Islamic world is in such bad shape"

do you know how much you sound like the people of lut in that quotation?

"And his people gave no answer but this: they said, Drive them out of your city: these are indeed men who want to be CLEAN and PURE! (Surat al-Araf: 80-82)

you consider purity as the main reason why the world is in such a bad place?

walahi you dont know what you're getting yourself into.

[mieroth]

Purity? No, I consider your MENTALITY regarding purity to be why the Islamic world is in such bad shape. Sadly too many people share your views. But I know many people who don't either. :) The bottomline is always: Let people believe what they want to believe. It's simple, yet you can't manage it... If everyone had this mentality the world would be a great place. Instead of a place where people kill each other because they interpret God's word differently (ironically)...

[TaskiyahEmaani]

whats my "mentality of purity" plz quote me where i have gone wrong and urged people to kill eachother with purity and "put the entire world in bad shape" (how can you even do that by being clean/modest anyway? lool)

and plz spare me the truck load of "we will do what we want" garbage, thats what the hippies used to say and thanks to them an epedemic of STD's and a wave of alcoholism, depression, suicides, teenage pregnancies, single mothers and a whole bunch of RUINED LIVES came about.

[mieroth]

You didn't urge people to kill one another. That's the irony of it, since the Koran forbids killing. But some people interpret the Koran as allowing killing in the case of jihad. What's to say we are right and they are wrong? We're all reading the same religious texts. Denying that interpretations exist is dangerous since you're then effectively saying all muslims are the same. I would instead try to distance myself from these people if I were you. This is what I mean by your mentality.

[mieroth]

Thanks to hippies the Vietnam war (started by Christian fundamentalists) ended. You are completely ignorant of the sin that goes on behind closed doors in Islamic countries. Humans have many faults but at least in the West these issues are out in the open and discussed. Whilst in Islamic countries rape, child abuse, alcoholism, suicide, and spousal abuse is rampant but quietened. Wake up please.

[TaskiyahEmaani]

"islamic countries"? pfffft dont make me laugh. which "islamic" country are you talking about, saudia arabia which has part democracy, part cultural governings and part shariah adminestrated nation?, or perhaps you're refering to indonesia which is more or less the same?

ur way too navie and vague in everthing you say, kindly refrain from using "islamic" as these countries are MUSLIM and not "islamic", there's a difference so lets get it right next time.

[mieroth]

Wth is the difference between an Islamic and a muslim country? You are again arguing semantics. I mean the countries which have Islam as their official state religion. The sharia-governed states especially.

[TaskiyahEmaani]

yeah you bet thats right, im denying that different interpretations exsist, and you know what i dare you to kind one single interpretation of the quran that differs from that of the quran every single muslim has.

do we have different qurans like the christians as they have a king james version, protestant version, orthadox and jehovas witness version?

no we dont we only have fools who are too ignorant (or should i say arrogant) to follow the quran so they turn to culture or the west.

[mieroth]

An example? Ok then.

How about how some people interpret the passage about how to handle rebellious wives differently? And the controversy of what the term daraba is translated to. In many interpretations it's translated as meaning "beat". So wives who are rebellious should be beaten. And in some versions it's translated as "going away." So if a wife is rebellious a man should leave her for a while.

[TaskiyahEmaani]

and by the way plz desist from making absurd claims that spelling the quran with a lower q is "disrespectful", there is no evidence to indicate it.

[mieroth]

In the English language it is disrespectful to use lower case letters. Since we're speaking English you should follow English rules. Koran with a lower k is disrespectful.

[TaskiyahEmaani]

that wasnt "abo dawood's opinion" but a quote from the prophet himself (pbuh), a quote which is FULLY AUTHENTIC and proven legitemate.

and no im not an arab so plz dont give me the b.s assumtion that only arab people wear modest clothing, thats a very rude and down right stereotypical notion displayed by racist minded people.

as regards to english grammer they dont mean a thing in this discussion, so dont attempt to make certain matters halal or haram, you're not the judge of that.

[mieroth]

It is his opinion. It is the interpretation which is accepted by certain groups. But certainly not by everyone. If you're not an Arab you must be from a country close to the Arab world since you are following Arab customs and culture. It's not a racist view at all. I am not an Arab and I dress modestly. I can show my hair and legs and still be dressed modestly. And just because you disagree with that doesn't make you right and me wrong. You have your own cultural interpretation and I have mine.

[TaskiyahEmaani]

by "him" i take it that you mean the propeht (pbuh)? you're saying that the very person whom God himself sent to humanity has an insignificant teaching? i dont know what you're claming to be but you sure as daylight dont represent anything moral from our religion.

if you have your own views and "interpritations" keep it well clear of our religion because we dont need it, this is a religion devoted to purity and faith in God not to human lust and senseless wants.

[mieroth]

Will you stop misspelling it for the last time?! It's INTERPRETATIONS. By HIM I mean Abu Dawood.

I don't have very unusual interpretations of Islam. I'm quite mainstream. What you are doing, however, is denying that interpretations exist. This "religion devoted to purity" rubbish is why the Islamic world is in such bad shape. Religious extremism will not lead to development. Everyone believes they are right - that they have the right beliefs - and this will only lead to conflict. Be OPEN-MINDED

[TaskiyahEmaani]

you must be tottally out of it,abo dawood wasnt pointing out his opinion,he collected hadiths from the salabah or people close to the sahabah, after that all the colections of the traditions where put into a single book named abo dawood. scholars from all over have read this book and clasified it as authentic. who are u to come around and say "oh lets interpret it how we feel like"?

you must b confusing islam with christianity, you cant chose whats written in the quran thats out of ur reach

[mieroth]

We interpret? No, HE interpreted it. And don't lie to me. You know as well as I do that there are criticisms of the "authenticity" of his work.

Haha, I'm confusing nothing with Christianity. I know plenty of Christians who sound as idiotic as you are now. Both parties denying interpretations of their religious texts exist. Each trying to blame a different religious group by saying that "my religion does not allow for interpretation whilst yours does." See, you just did it. How typical.

[TaskiyahEmaani]

how you laugh too soon and think too little, do you how naive and untaught you are,

dont you realise its not our duty to interpret anything, who are to interpret the quran when Allah says this?

And We have also sent down unto YOU (O Muhammad not me and you and the rest of the ummah) the reminder and the advice (the Qur'ân), that YOU (meaning Muhammad) may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought.(surat an nahl 16:44)

i dare you speak against that

[mieroth]

When did I ever say that the Koran SHOULD be interpreted? I'm saying that it IS interpreted. All religious texts will always be interpreted differently. But if denial works for you... :)

[TaskiyahEmaani]

aah nice try mieroth but thats not working for u, you see we have a little clever trick by checking past coments by simply cliking previous page,if you're smart enough you would see for yourself that not only did you say that we can interpret the quran differently but you also said "we can believe in what ever we want",have the competancy 2 be consistant

as for "your mentality" you still havent quoted my ideas or specifically what they are so dont claim knowledge of something ur ignorant off

[mieroth]

...

You don't think we can believe in whatever we want? Fascist.

I am being anything but inconsistent.

[TaskiyahEmaani]

oh really ur not bieng inconsistant? why dont you check what you said eailer unless you have lesser memory.

in islam we dont do whatever pops into our head, many people want to smoke, drink alcohol and even sleep with as many people as they can, but oh well lets not be facist and allow them do all that eh mieroth? :)

[mieroth]

I know exactly but I said and I am not being inconsistent. o_O

...

If people want to smoke and drink alchohol they should be allowed to do that. It's their CHOICE. How precisely are you going to stop them? By installing theocratic fascist governments like in most of the Middle East? Yeah, that's working really well... [/sarcasm] If people want to be good muslims they won't do those things. But you have no right to force them to. This is OUR belief. One which we should not force onto others.

[TaskiyahEmaani]

oh i get it now, and here i am thinking ur a muslim, this explains everything.

why didnt you just tell me you wherent muslim from the start?

[mieroth]

Nothing I wrote contradicts being a muslim. Not forcing your beliefs onto others is common decency. If everyone had this mentality there would be fewer conflicts in the world. :) Group formations work on relatively small scales. Trying to force all muslims in the world to follow your interpretation of Islam will not work. Sometimes not even countries define appropriate boundaries. Religious interpretation is a part of ethnic identity. Stick to your own community. :) Simple as that.

[TaskiyahEmaani]

lady you'r not a muslim (as ur comments show) so plz dont tell me what the quran says.

may Allah guide you

[mieroth]

You're avoiding the issue. I gave you an example of an interpretation. That is exactly what the Koran says. And it can be interpreted differently, as shown. :)

[TaskiyahEmaani]

there is no disagrement, observe:

As for those (women) on whose part you fear ill-will and nasty conduct, admonish them (first), (next) separate them in beds (and last) beat them. But if they obey you, then seek nothing against them. Behold, God is most high and great. (4:34)

the quran dosnt incourage senseless domestic violence but a clear and effective method to stop negative behaviour on the part of a wife.

the verse first states, admonish them meaning comunicate and advice...

[mieroth]

Did you even read what I wrote before? Some people interpret the translation differently. So that the last part is NOT "beat" but instead "avoid". Are you denying this interpretation exists? Pick up a Koran with the alternative version and take a look.

[ctusa777]

Al Jez propaganda! What a load of crap.

[Amy31415]

fuck.

I don't want to be an American, much less a "human" anymore. Too much abuse. At least if I were a simple animal I'd have an excuse.

[Rafidi2020]

the taliban are retarted wallah,angers me to see them do this kinda stuff,jus makes islam look bad,especially the traditional sunni brothers,watever, 60%of women in iran are educated and most of em are gettin there degrees in university and so on,this is why Shiism is ecnomically and politically more powerfull then sunnis right now,sunni school of thought is being hijacked by wahabi influenced schools based on "bringing islam back to its roots" wich i think is the most stupidest thing.

[scotishjohn]

shit should not happen

but we alow it

why

[circuscommando]

what gramra said, a large number of people in guantanamo bay didn't commit any crimes and didn't receive trial. The way you are suggesting is an eye for an eye, which as Ghandi put, makes the whole world blind.

[Gramra]

Just because someone is arrested at Gitmo doesn't make them guilty. 17 Chinese Muslims who were in Afghanistan got arrested. And besides, if you're talking about torture, it's ineffective. Don't use it.

[darkreign16]

How can they be enforced? War?

That's the last thing we need....

[SimplyBen84]

I think it a bit rich to put so much empathsis on Bush when the people he is fighting are currently the biggest violators of human rights. Not that I'm defending Bush, it's just that the war on Terror is far from the being the biggest violation of human rights...Its just the most widly publisized

[covertcovenant]

You are so right, the war on the Palestinians by Israel is a far greater breach and gross violation of human rights.

[Gramra]

Agreed, but this report places the blame on the Taliban as well.

[couldahadaveight72]

Type59: are you serious?!

[OrphanPaper]

your just scratching the surface the UN is the jewSA's best weapon for raciest and religious dominance

[Gramra]

But aren't there more then 30 UN resolutions against Israel?

[OrphanPaper]

30 UN resolutions, and what has israel done to comply with the 30 UN resolutions ,passed by the organisation that legitimised the terror of the zionest. To busy taking tea, the UN has a moral mandate to protect the Palestine people ,it was a UN decree that establish the jewish terror(zionisem) in that area.

[RedNickII]

I thought it was 60 resolutions.

[Type59]

Worlds is in a better shape then 60 years ago. Who would argue it is not? One or two examples to show show how it is not working. Damn ex bbc staff.

[ItzMeRon]

Civil Right should be made as universal as the UCC. If they were, we wouldnt have news stories like this.

[amirk25]

Great, at least Aljazeera got enough courage to speak truth. In only 127 seconds, they showed horrible picture of so called democratic Governments. Drat!!!!! Coward Muslims leaders don't have enough water to show the real pictures of so called war on terror.

[xiffyx]

DOn't call them Muslim leaders, they don't lead the majority of Muslims. These guys are the puppets of your goverment, and when your goverment doesn't need them anymore, they kill them and destroy the country they live in.

[Pokhton]

i just say fuck america and cnn :)

[TECHKLEC]

If that's the case, Pokhton, go smoke some poppy and go fuck yourself.

[IsaAbdulmali]

if anyone of those U.N. Devils got any of my reports... "that is if they where not itercepted by the U.S.Postal service aka the last of the Confederate army" "YEAH I SAID IT!" please be advised... i am from the west side of Chicago"which is called the Holy City" i am also to stand at all times "Shia" and it was me telling then Sec.Gen. Kofi Annan,because of the false declaration, i am to stand down as a U.N. detective and only stand for the Ahl al-Bayt as Ayatollah Ahmad Mustafa Mali.

[runi8]

I think the main problem is the right of veto. All the people in the world should start a campain and demand that the governments change the UN Charter, so nobody has a right of veto... as utopic as that sounds I don't see any other solution...

[crinoid1918]

"Some freedoms must be curtailed to save others"

BULLSHIT!

[emokidsstolemycar]

did you think that one through?

[crinoid1918]

Indeed!

and by your answer, i can see you haven't.

I think your confusing freedom and liberty with anarchy.

[emokidsstolemycar]

Example: A warlord threatens country A, has killed over 400 people, and threatens to kill even more. This death threat is essentially an invasion of one's inherent human rights as designated by the UDHR. Force A intervenes and puts said warlord to death. Would that not intrude upon his inherent human rights? He's human, he gets them right? That's the tradeoff, to retract the coverage of one under these rights for the benefit of another. Relating to the economic theory of tradeoffs. Meh?

[UcanbeGOD]

IN self defense it is a different story. And you do not have the right to take away the rights of others. At least not outright as in the scenario you presented. Besides, who would really give a fuck about a warlords rights anyway?

[emokidsstolemycar]

It was a scenario to prove that there exists a tradeoff. I'm not saying the tradeoff is significant, i'm saying it exists. That's kinda what the narrator was getting at.

[chefsanders70]

By your logic if emokidsstolemycar looses feedom speach in the "interest of security" thats ok. Loss of freedom for "security" is the tradeoff, as you put it.

Your words "to retract the coverage of one under these rights for the benifit of another"

That sir, is the basis for tyranny

[bunmeguy]

your absolutely right dude, theres a semi famous quote by Benjamin Franklin on this exact issue

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." I think these words are more true then ever at this time

[LabTechM]

I thought the exact quote was "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety." I bet that Benjamin Franklin would throw a huge fit if he saw what's going on right now.

[emokidsstolemycar]

I never said it was morally correct, you're being way to selective here. I said the tradeoff EXISTS, you can't deny that. I was being purposefully vague here, I said "one" and "another", not "the citizens" and "the state," get off my back.

[crinoid1918]

I think the chef hit the nail on the head!

[MrMayhemskyline]

5 stars... clear reminder and heads up all in one quick feature.  Fine line of the will to act vs unwelcome presence.

[Mxyzptlk562]

The UN has no soul. It is all about politics, ineffective and uncaring bureaucracies, competing interests, idle talking and moral posturing. The only good left in them is UNICEF.

Otherwise they, as well as the rest of the world, lacks the moral, ethical, and political courage to confront violations of human rights and to actively intervene to prevent major conflicts and aggressions from getting out of hand.

[WKaliber1]

Bush and human rights violations go hand in hand

[matthewandrew]

ay nako.

ano kaya ang magagawa natin?

[sharinganclan213]

lol and this is why aljazeera is ausome. u got retards like bill oreilly on fox who constatnly say that aljazeera hates america. maybe it does, and maybe it doesnt. but atleast we get some real coverage.

[br0wnb3rry]

yeah, I would hope most other Americans can now see that Fox is just more of our dying left/right system and that all people of the world need to to get up and push the world reset button, no mater how long the start up time will be.

[jack7474]

i find al jazeera english to be FAR more objective than any mainstream American press. It's also nice to see things from the perspective of other nations and peoples.

[Obakedake]

Denial of education is horrible, but the least of the UN's sins. Sitting by and watching nearly as nearly a million people slaughtered in Rwanda while France backed the killers in power, then setting up camps for the fleeing war criminals is probably the most glaring in my mind.

[aesthetictripp]

Yeah Rwanda is one of the BEST examples of how the UN is FALSE and has OTHER INTERESTS......

[thecoyote]

What are you willing to do for peace? What will you allowed to be done in your name? I am tired of the same thing over and over ALL government leaders promise peace and war at the same time. I just don't know how to get everyone that matters involved in the struggle to help. The people that we need are just the little people we have the power to bring a company,city,state,government to its knees, what more do you need before we attempt to stop the leaders that are only in office for themselves?

[ratonnewmex]

the fat nasty fucking sheeple in the TOILET OF THE U.S. are not going to do anything...there will NEVER be unity like there is in Greece. thousands and thousands are standing up in Greece and when a child is raped or murdered in the U.S. then someone just calls a 1 800#...fucking SICK SICK SICK country the U.S. is!

[Mxyzptlk562]

Seriously, do you in the tertiary stages of neurosyphilis?

[ratonnewmex]

wow,,,i'm impressed Constatine. wow. you are pretty educated. wow. i am VERY impressed. so nice to know that you have such an expanded vocabulary. good little boy. you have yourself a Merry Christmas, you hear?

[Mxyzptlk562]

That is, are you in the tertiary stages of neurosyphilis?

[zizoubilly]

What has the UN really done? Its allowed COUNTLESS genocides, etc.

I've got an Idea, it may sound "barbaric" to some:

Hang Bush, Bin Laden & Taliban Leader on the Pillars in Mecca where pilgrims stone the devil!

[TaskiyahEmaani]

mecca is a holy site and we do not permit the blood of anyone to be shed there.

[ratonnewmex]

but your "religion" permits the shedding of it elsewhere....boy, HUMANITY is somethin' else ain't it?

[bfq3000]

the whole idea that some land is sacred holy land has caused tremendous unnecessary violence and should be abandoned by mankind.

and the fact that only muslims can enter mecca or medina is ridiculous too.

[TaskiyahEmaani]

what, would you like us to permit alcoholism, imodest behaviour and clothing, guns, drugs and all the imorality that comes from the west into mecca?

and what would non muslim even want from mecca in the first place, its a place of worship dedicated purity and faith not a social club.

[bfq3000]

that's the great thing about freedom. if you want to have a drink or indulge in sex out of wedlock, you're free to do so provided you're not infringing on the rights of others. if you don't care to participate in that sort of behavior, that's fine too. that's your right. it's a great way to peacefully coexist with others and maximize the enjoyment of life at the same time.

mecca and medina both have sites that would be of interest to many non-muslims because of their historical significance

[TaskiyahEmaani]

you said it yourself:

"if you don't care to participate in that sort of behavior, that's fine too"

and thats precisely what we as muslims have chosen, we DONT want any of those negative influences on holy ground and thats why its off limits.

im glad we agree.

[bfq3000]

so you're suggesting that all 1.3 billion muslims are in unanimous agreement about what social customs constitute immoral behavior and what ought to be law within the borders of what was once the islamic caliphate? muslims in saudi arabia, indonesia, burkina faso, afghanistan and in western democracies are all in universal agreement about appropriate dress for females, alcohol consumption, premarital sex, criminalizing apostasy/blasphemy/adultury and the role of sharia in government law?

[TaskiyahEmaani]

lol yes they would if they are muslim and true to their faith, there's no disagreements in islam about alcohol consumption, modesty, adultry, premarital sex, abortion, apostasy and shariah.

unlike christianity you cant choose the laws. so in short thats PRESICELY what im saying.

[mieroth]

Lol. Oh yes there is. There are many many different interpretations of Islam and different rules regarding women, alcohol, sex, etc, in different countries and cultures. Don't be blind.

[TaskiyahEmaani]

lol which "interitaion" of the quran says alcohol is permissable, pre-marital sex is allowed and modesty is insignificant?

there is only ONE interpitation of the quran which is that of our Prophet (pbuh) if you hold another view and you really do have another "interpritation" i dare you to quote it :)

[mieroth]

I nearly don't feel like dignifying that with an answer. Are you kidding? You're in denial, apparently. You know very well that there are different interpretations of the Koran or else there wouldn't be different branches of Islam, now would there? In the Koran it says to dress modestly. This could mean making sure to cover your genitals or it could mean making sure to cover everything including your face. Everything is relative. Interpretations exist. Deal with it.

[TaskiyahEmaani]

i dont think you get the topic, i said that there wasnt different interpritations of the quran, i didnt say anything about sects such as the sufis and the shias. even they would tell you that ALL the qurans are EXACTLY THE SAME. its not a matter of the quran but individuals not following it.

scholars of the highest degree have ALL agreed unanomously that modesty is covering EVERYTHING except for the hands and face.

deal with it.

[Mxyzptlk562]

That isn't modesty. That is oppression and insanity.

[mieroth]

More blathering from you. It doesn't say anywhere in the Koran how you should dress - only that you should dress MODESTLY. To me this means not running around topless and to others it means covering their faces. Scholars do NOT agree because scholars choose to interpret the Koran differently. And, btw, writing Koran without a capital like you are doing is disrespecting to the Koran and to Islam. So please desist.

[TaskiyahEmaani]

obviously you dont get the point which is probably why you're constantly making so many errors. the quran does indeed say PRECISELY WHERE YOU SHOULD COVER, if you knew, you wouldnt be speaking so ignorantly.

go check out (Quran 24:30)

it was reported by Aysha that the prophet (pbuh) said:

"When a girl reaches the mentrual age (age of puberty), it is not proper that anything should remain exposed except this and this. He pointed to the FACE AND HANDS." (Abu Dawood)

get it right

[mieroth]

I know perfectly well what it says in the Koran 24:30. It only points out that a woman's chest should be covered in front of men. And that clothes should be lengthened for modesty. I'll assume that you're an Arab since it's the Arab culture that requests complete body cover, not Islamic tradition. Abu Dawood is a man - he does not represent the word of God. Why trust his interpretation of the Koran and not others? You make no sense. Let people interpret the Koran as they see fit.

[TaskiyahEmaani]

ah just as i expected, you're as misinformed (or perhaps delibratly ignorant) about islamic matters as i previously assumed. if you had really read the surah you would know that women should cover thier "adornments", what does adornments mean? it means the beauty which Allah has given women which includes all the femenine aspects of a women except the hands and face

the fact that u have the nerve 2 say "oh well its only abo dawood's opinion" shows how truely laughable ur logic is

[mieroth]

My logic is anything but laughable. "Adornments" leave everything open to interpretation. According to him (and you) it means everything but the hands and face. According to some it means the face should be covered as well - as is clearly seen in some cultures - most notably in Afghanistan. Adornments can also mean genitals and breasts. So as long as you wear a bikini you're fine. Don't you get it? Let people interpret the Koran however they want. That's what freedom is all about.

[TaskiyahEmaani]

you're right i take it back, your logic is not just laughable but it is also extreamly rediculous as well.

the fact that you dont have enough common sense to know that the niqab was only meant for the wives of the prophet(pbuh) shows how much you lack proper islamic knowledge. no sane person on earth would consider the wearing of a bikini to be modest or apropriate for that matter.

perhaps you conder women flashing themselves in bikinis as "fine" in but i happen to respect the human body.

[mieroth]

Haha. Tell that to the Afghans who wear burkas/niqabs because it's in their Islamic teaching. I am sane and I consider a bikini to be modest. Your problem is that you're narrow-minded and consider your opinion to be the only right one. You consider a woman in a bikini to be "flashing themselves" when really it is an act of modesty to wear a bikini as to not appear naked in front of men. Think outside the box.

[TaskiyahEmaani]

there is nothing quranic about the niqab, if there was wouldnt ALL women of the ummah be wearing it by now?, you cant differentiate culture from religion thats where you're failing.

lool not even proper christians and jews consider a bikini to be modest, whats the point of wearing two pieces of cloth while hald your butt if stikking out, your legs are bare and you breasts are in the open?,

hmm i wonder how you would feel if that object of lust was your mother or even your wife.

[mieroth]

"You can't differentiate between culture and religion."

Funny, that's exactly what I would say about you.

And I'm female. I don't wear bikinis myself but you're misunderstanding my reasoning. It IS modest RELATIVELY. Everything is relative. And wearing a bikini does not make a  woman an "object of lust" to all men. Some women can be completely covered up and still be "objects of lust" to some men. It depends on the man, not the woman.

[TaskiyahEmaani]

im the one talking about culture while you're telling me that people should enterpret the quran which ever way they please?, quite funny that.

and you're right wearing a bikini doesnt make you an object of lust for all men it makes you a sex object for MOST MEN with the exception of those who are homosexual.

and im not talking about "relative" modesty im talking about islamic modesty, we dont take things by halfs in islam.

again weak reasoning from you.

[mieroth]

What about some tribes in South America, South-East Asia and Africa where women go around bare-breasted? These women are NOT seen as being sex objects. It's seen as natural to have your breasts bared for child-feeding. And they're being modest since their genitals are covered. Islamic modesty is NOT a universal truth because the term "modesty" depends on what culture you are in. So interpretations arise. Which is exactly the point of this discussion.

[TaskiyahEmaani]

miss i would hate to call you stupid but seriously how are you not capable of putting two and two together?

are men in africa different from men in arabia or europe?, they are all the same and they get turned on by a womens certain areas. perhaps they're not seen as sex objects because its normal fro them, but can you deny that there isnt any attraction?

do you not think if these women where giving bra's and shirts they would wear it for modesty and comfort?

[Gramra]

It's so it doesn't become a tourist trap.

[TaskiyahEmaani]

first of all dont patronise me and seoondly my religion only permits the sheding of blood when it concerns criminals not enocent people, so get your facts straight and get a clue plz.

i dont need a lecture on "humanity" from you lady so back off.