Aaaaarhhh i started listening to it again, I read somewhere else that this guy is the foremost defender of Christianity, but REALLY...... I get a headache from listening to this.... sorry... fool.. he is soooo SMOG... about his oponent: "if he is to justify an affirmative answer to tonight's question (that god is a delusion) then he does owe us such arguments".. does he also "owe" an explanation of why Allah, flying teapots and the Spaghetti Monster are not real?? ...Jeeez this guy is annoying
@Andersxman .. it is sad that your mind is not open enough to understand that the LORD is GOD and the TRUTH the LIGHT and SALVATION. FUCK YOU HEATHEN and BURN IN HELL. Hahahaha! I will be SAVED and you, fucking unbeliever, will BURN in ANGUISH!
@PeterBretthauser ok so your either being sarcastic or completly misguided lol Regardless which it actually is, saying things like that wont save you at all, you teach never scold people of the ways of Christ not tell them of their "fate". We do not hold that place to judge, that is Gods and Gods alone.
@92xtaylor You will burn too. Mark my words - I am not an extremist, or a fundamentalist or anything - I am simply a Christian who takes my religion and it sources the way they SHOULD be taken: LITERALLY! The BIBLE is HOLY and it is the WORD OF GOD, the LORD! So it is simple: accept Jesus Christ as your personal saviour, or BURN!!
@PeterBretthauser im a Christian too you must be forgeting the part where Jesus said in the Gospel, love thy nebighor like thy self, and also bad things you say defile the heart, oh cant forget dont judge others for its not our place.
@92xtaylor you are selecting the wrong parts of the bible to focus on. Ignore them, would be my advise!! As a religious person, you MUST focus on the basic truth: there is only 1 GOD, and followers of other religions and non believers are doomed!! I am a normal Christian, but I REALLY cannot comprehend why we should not condemn in the harshest way non-belief and worshipping of other gods. See what the LORD made MOSES do when he founds his ppl worshipping the golden calf: KILL THOUSANDS.
@92xtaylor I have truly accepted JESUS CHRIST as my personal saviour - that makes me GOD LIKE and gives me GODS intuition in many cases - in THIS case I CERTAINLY have GODs intuition - and let me tell you something: GOD spoke to me in a dream and he assured me that I and ONLY I and a low % of the worlds population is pius and correct enough in their daily WORSHIP OF THE LORD to be SAVED at the end of time. You mark my words: I am GOD LIKE, I am NOT GOD, but - ALMOST, as I ACCEPT JESUS as my SAVI
@PeterBretthauser if course you arent god , and im not god. no one is god as matter of fact now if god was all pure and good and "perfect`as this life isnt perfect at all. why would sacrifice him. and resurect him meaning as if it sound extremly stupid. especially in the year 0 which was 2000 years ago. now jesus is your savior but what did he save you in? i would understand in saving you from almost dying or like shit like that but wouldnt that be a coincidence?
@hypnotiq171 Good question! How can Jesus' dying and resurrecting 2000 years ago mean anything at all today?
All normal human beings, born into this world are born in "sin", being not just guilty of what we do, but also of what we are capable of doing, since God judges the heart, according to the Bible.
Just as God passed judgement on Sodom and Gomorrah, and also at the flood during the time of Noah, ...
@signmanbob2 His intention would have been to pass judgement on all of mankind unless He would take a human form and take upon Himself the judgement that He would have directed toward all of humankind.
Since God is timeless and uncaused, existing outside of our boundaries of time and space , His judgement for all humans, carried out upon Himself in the form of Jesus of Nazareth, is also timeless and without bounds. Thus no normal flesh human being could have...
@signmanbob2 ...paid the penalty of God's judgement because they would not have existed outside of time-space restriction, as Jesus did. This is why, although Jesus came 2000 years ago, what he did is still good today to those who believe in Him.
@signmanbob2 even though Jesus was a good man but making us regret for him sounds insane. as i believe this life scientifically destroys religion. and Noah story is genocidal. and just the point that god is here to watch you 24/7 shows a sign of anyone who believes in any religion is dependent. which can get extreme. and also he can convict us of thought crime . meaning that religion is sort of slavery just in secret.
@hypnotiq171 If Jesus was just a "good man", he could have never offered us a reconnection to God through salvation. We don't "regret" for Jesus. We will regret if we turn our backs to him.
You have a body, but you are not your body. Your body will die and decay.
You are your soul. Your thoughts, your decisions, your emotions are from your soul, which will return to God who made it.
It's nice for some to think we answer to no one, but that's not the case.
@signmanbob2 science is the truth about our nature and religion tries to ignore it as if they reject evidence. why would god reject condoms in catholicism as the pope says. and that creationists hates catholics but worship the same god.... irrelevant.
but if i dont answer to no one and that my soul will return to god then he has betrayed me because my thoughts said i dont want to answer him. so basically im being Forced to see him.
@hypnotiq171 Science is truth about our physical nature only, but we know that we are more than physical. If every thought originated from strictly physical nature, then our thoughts would narrow only to survival, hunger, reproduction and comfort. We know that our thoughts go much further because our thoughts originate in our soul. Yet science does not understand the soul because it can't measure it.
Because Christianity has been misunderstood or misused does not make it void.
@signmanbob2 The concept of having a soul is based on a lack of understanding about respiration and consciousness. Ancient mystics noticed the air inside of people caused the lungs to raise and fall then when they die the air stops flowing through them. As the air leaves our bodies, so does life. These observations are what the concept of the soul is based upon.
@Rookerfy Because those ancient people may have mistaken the last breath as the release of the soul, doesn't mean that is the bases for all belief in the soul
Ancient people thought that the Moon was the face of a man. The Moon most certainly exist, yet we know now that it is a natural satellite of the Earth and not a man's face.
Like wise the soul is the essense of who we are. It is the deep origin of thought and character that defines us and gives us self awareness.
@signmanbob2 why would a Muslim kill for the name of Allah or suicide bomb to support his belief. just to receive a reward of 72 virgins in heaven as such an immoral quote from the Qur'an itself. and that the Hadith says apostasy in Islam is death. immoral. That Jews circumcise male genitals just thinking that its part of culture and belief but scientifically proved to hurt the baby. and also lose of extra pleasure for life. ......
@hypnotiq171 You bring up good points about the fallacies of religious rituals which I also agree with you on, but they have nothing to do with the existance of God or the salvation of Jesus.
You have to cut through the smoke and mirrors of the worldly self-interests of the religious instutions to find the truth and benefit which the Salvation of Jesus has for your soul.
This is why the Catholic church tried desparatly for years to keep people from reading the Bible.
@signmanbob2 we both have the same point of views on these morals. but basically your saying that these morals have nothing to do with jesus, nor allah, and etc... as these morals(the holy books) are apparently made from these gods. also about science cant prove that your thoughts can be infinite and stay mysterious as it is. and we are mostly finding out on the universe itself and if it is infinite or not
@hypnotiq171 as we are working on it, but us atheist really do remain skeptical still because we are still on the process are trying to find answers of where he have originated which might take us decades to find out though i wont decide to beleive in god and ignore about how we found fossils in mars or their can be a sign of evolution on the 2nd moon of jupiter "europa" as we found bacteria organisms. but the point is that will they evolve in certain decades?
@hypnotiq171 aand the theory of big bang, how their is an atheist point of view and an intelligent design point of view of it. Though intelligent design think its superstition and that the answer is already their for big bang as science keeps looking for the answer as maybe one day we might know the facts. BUT their is no evidence for anything yet. and as i said the religious reject evidence for reasons on superstitions
@signmanbob2 now what if a Muslim was going to tell you i circumcised my daughters clitoris and put stitches on her genitals at the age of 6. what would you think of this ABSOLUTE morality as if these morals were written by these gods therefore these moral were written by force for us to do them.I want a moral that is reasoned and discussed and thought to change the cycle of this type of cause of death.
@PeterBretthauser "you're selecting the wrong parts of the bible" lol who the hell are you to say which parts of the bible are wrong? I think that for a Christian, Jesus' teachings should be the main parts of the bible to focus on, don't you?
This guy is deluded! Richard Dawkins would have a field day with a nutter like this - just one thing to defeat this poor man's arguments: even if the universe startet at some point, he has proven absolutely NOTHING by envoking a creator, absolutely zero. Basic question: why would the beginning of everything be created by an intelligent being? Then were did the ingelligent being come from? The burden of evidence is on HIM to prove god's existence, and NONE exists, not a TINY shred of evidence!!!
@Andersxman - - absolutely WRONG!! God exists because HE IS GOD!!.... Another, very easy to understand observation: the BIBLE is the book of TRUTH, and in the BIBLE it says that GOD is GOD - - - so if it says so in the book of TRUTH...... Well...... I am sorry, all your arguments fall apart... It is simply true... You can see the logic, no?
@CannotEscapeReality Cognitive distance theory, Evolution theory, String theory, multiverse theory, this is more so a form of blind faith, as none of these theories have crossed the line into fact. Professor Craig uses the highest forms of logic which still to this day no prominent Atheist has been able to refute, including Richard Dawkins who continuously refuses to debate him.
@ivhoven See antybu86's "Oh, What a Tangled Web". For cogent defenses of atheism, see, as an intro, Dave Steele's *Atheism Explained*. For more academically-oriented works, see, e.g., Mike Martin's work (especially *Atheism: A Philosophical Justification*), Nick Everitt's *The Non-Existence of God*, and Richard Gale, *On the Nature and Existence of God*. (See also Anthony Kenny, *The God of the Philosophers*.) WLC should rebut these works: He hasn't because he can't.
I've had just about all I can stand from Craig when he babbles on and on about the "self-contradictory" mathematics of infinity. He simply doesn't know what he's talking about. How can a man be so ignorant of Cantor's great work on this subject? And Craig never understands that if infinity is a contradictory idea, then so is the idea of an inifinite God. Hello?
Craig literally says the exact same thing every debate. Almost word for word even. He's such a twat, playing the same semantic games and begging the question every time...
@mouthyweasel Actually if you had listened to the entire debate he answers this question with a rational answer. I challenge you to watch this putting aside feelings, pre-conceived ideas, or cultural conventions, and you will understand who is more rational. 1luv
"I challenge you to watch this putting aside feelings, pre-conceived ideas"
Craig knows all about preconceived ideas. In his book "Reasonable Faith" he writes:
"Should a conflict arise between the witness of the Holy Spirit to the fundamental truth of the Christian faith and beliefs based on argument and evidence, then it is the former which must take precedence over the latter."
"My history of the Jesuits is not eloquently written, but it is supported by unquestionable authorities, [and] is very particular and very horrible. Their [the Jesuit Order’s] restoration [in 1814 by Pope Pius VII] is indeed a step toward darkness, cruelty, despotism, [and] death. … I do not like the appearance of the Jesuits. If ever there was a body of men who merited eternal damnation on earth and in hell, it is this Society of [Ignatius de] Loyola."
I see quite a few atheists engaged in the discussion. I use the term engaged very loosely. Weakly constructed insults seem to be the norm. I've asked a few of these paragons of intellectual prowess to simply express their reasoned disagreements with those presented in the video. Not a single lucid answer arises. A few assertions, a few insults, but not one single construction of logic.
I've heard very good arguments in the past, but modern atheists appear utterly hopeless.
@ASeventhSign Theology, the art of worth-smithing to put a rational cloak on otherwise irrational propositions. No scientist should ever debate a theologian non-scientist . it `s a waste of time. Let theologists defend the bible and scientists defend science. And let religion be judged by it`s fruits.
@tallliza Craig works with science too...He rarely ever brings scripture into debates...just logic, science and reality...So personally i think that argument is a cop out for you trying to find excuses for guys like Dawkins who run scared from having their image tarnished like the long list of atheists who tried debating Craig. People don't want to accept it because it means being wrong. But Craigs never lost an argument because truth and logic guide him and he destroys oppononents arguments
@tallliza irony...You say let religion be judged by its fruits...so now your spouting statements from the Bible but using them as your own? come on now you should know better....Let each individual be judged by their own fruits and let the ignorant who do not pay attention to the reality that does prove God. Let them also be judged for their ability to walk around with their fingers in their ears only choosing to listen to wafflers like Dawkins.
@SHAOLINSINZ The reality does not prove god at all. The reality proves the absence of a loving, caring, compassionate, just ,almighty god. Spiritualityl does not mean believe in a god. Bouddhist have spirituality too, Don`t they ?
@tallliza Reality proves God in endless ways, The Thumb ALONE would prove Gods existence to me let alone the Fact the Sun is the perfect distance away from the planet to feed life and make it flourish instead of kill and burn everything on the planet...But i forget you atheists believe in endless coincidence and chance, Your like failed gamblers holding onto your last bit of change to use in the fruit machines.
Buddhists believe in a variety of Gods and that man himself can become equal to God
@SHAOLINSINZ Reality proves God in endless ways... That is your personal opinion. Nothing else.... The Thumb ALONE would prove Gods existence... Oh sure, and the shape of the banana too, right ? Study some anatomy and you will see how slopily we are put . Start with the eye. First sentence from a publication about Buddhism.....The refutation[1] of the notion of a supreme God or a prime mover is seen as a key distinction between Buddhism and other religions... The buddists have no god. Period.
@SHAOLINSINZ Is it a crime to spout statements from the bible . Maybe you feel unconfortable, when I put your nose in your own mostard. ...The crimes of individuals acting in the name of the christian god, are the responsability and the shame of christianity. .
@ASeventhSign What the heck is a mostard.... MUSTARD silly !! .. ... You're clearly distinguished as the least credible person engaged in this discussion.. Unlike you, I feel very comcortable in this position . I have no need to feel superior, unlike you. I have no intention in refuting any points made by a theologian. They have been refuted many times over. You christians,of all people, have the arrogance, to claim that you can prove god. If there is one, he must be unknowable.
Yikes! Try wikipedia for a definition on theology. Surely you contradict your claim of wasted time. Confusion abounds when a learned individual such as Dr. Craig displays a superior understanding of science than those who place their faith solely within it. Surely you're not yet another atheist ill prepared to illustrate your assertions.
Please share with us your refutations of the presentation.
Are you a Christian trying to make atheists look bad? I especially love the comma as the ending punctuation! It's as if your train of thought just sputtered to a halt!
@ASeventhSign - Conservatively, about 80,000 years of Human existance - and not a sign of any of the thousands of god(s). "Is God a Delusion" - till you can prove it they all are.
The real question for Craig is 'when the nature of time and space is understood where will his god hide then?'
Again, you're failing to comprehend the basic nature of making a valid argument. Have you no original thoughts usable in a discussion of the video you're commenting on? Indeed you cause one to question your even watching the video in question. Assertion comes easy to unqualified objection. I implore you; challenge yourself. Defend your faith with fact. Have courage worthy of your convictions.
Again, we await even a poorly constructed refutation against any of Dr. Craig's arguments.
@ASeventhSign It's not my faith in question - The debate title is; "Is God a Delusion".
"Knowing something beyond space and time" is a pretty fantastic assertion in it's own right. How does he know? If he cannot say the rest of his argument is invalid.
Assertions about god(s) are hardly original does that make them invalid too?
There you go again, you're abject refusal to question your dogma prohibits you from engaging in the most elementary of discussions. An open mind truly empowers the rational thinker.
Yet again, I ask you to formulate your thoughts as a basic contention of the arguments made by Dr. Craig.
Perhaps the subject matter is simply outside your ken? Your obstinate reactions have a rather jejune and spiteful tone. You refuse to answer the simplest questions.
Isn't the god of the bible said to be an infinite, eternal entity. Yet he says nothing is infinite. More non sequitur ramblings from those who refuse to realize that this life is all we have; that nothing is waiting for us . Life is consciousness period.
@ASeventhSign What concept, in your deluded estimation did I misunderstand? Did I misunderstand that your deity's cure for leprosy involves finding two doves, killing one then dipping the wings of the living dove into the blood of the dead one. This followed by repreated spinkling of bird blood onto the said leper. Lev 14: 49-53.
Did I misunderstand that your loving god sanctioned the Israeli land grab while condoning that every living thing standing tin their way be destroyed?
Apparently you did misunderstand! You should watch the video before making such foolish statements.
But...
Lev 14:49-53 describe a ritual purification, not a cure. Are you seriously this incapable of original thought? Your simple minded regurgitation of an old atheist standby is laughable. Try reading again.
Yes, God delivered Israel. Your characterization is naive, but expected.
Further, you should try and form a coherent thought about the subjects discussed in the video. Your attention deficient rambling is hardly germane to the discussion. Are we moving to quickly for you?
@ASeventhSign I applaud the breadth of intellectual evasion you're employing. Well done! Please continue to braodcast your non- answers to my questions. Or, perhaps you could stop being an elitest Snark who honestly believes that there was a fish taxi, enflamed bushes who speak, talking donkeys, talking snakes and people who rise from the dead and try and craft something that resembles a cogent and lucid response.
Intellectual evasion? I responded to your childish remarks. I do however admit an amusement at illustrating the antagonistic atheist's shortcomings. Perhaps a cursory read of Leviticus before blathering would suit you.
Which of Dr. Craig's arguments can you possibly refute?
Please offer more than the amusing "Life is consciousness period.". Truly a well reasoned argument!
@ginganz13 I don't. I defend the creed. What a reasoned, cogent argument! So like the new atheists. Is this really what you want the public level of discourse to become?
@Mystagogia87 Are you a Catholic or not? What is an Athieist like? I would very much like for public discourse to center on people who proclaim support for an organisation that supports child rpaists and Nazi supporters.
The new popular atheism is heavy on anger and rhetorical jabs, but short on substance and arguments. Man, I wish I'd lived when existentialism was flourishing. That was an intellectually exciting atheism...
"I would very much like for public discourse to center on people who proclaim support for an organisation that supports child rpaists and Nazi supporters."
I'm against Nazis and rape, precisely as a Catholic. Oy vey...
@Mystagogia87 - Atheism is a lack of beleif in god(s) your other observations are incidental and not necesarily anything to do with being an atheist.
Lack of substantive argument religions biggest problem - not a single shred of evidence for it's absurd claims.
You may well personally be against Nazi's & child rape but the organisation you proclaim to be a part of is not. Its a bit like playing for Manchester United while objecting about football.
@ASeventhSign 'Substantive' in the grammatical sense of the word, expressing material existance. There not a shred of epistemic proof, which for the claimant is at best embarrasing given the extent of influence attributed to these claims.
Do you really not understand that you have yet to make a single argument? Your opinion is duly noted, do you have anything to offer? Do you have any original thoughts that would refute the logic and evidence presented by Dr. Craig in the video?
@ASeventhSign It's neither argument or opinion, it is a fact, there is no evidence of Craig's 'god'. Craig has never presented any 'evidence' and cannot which is why he has to 'hide' his god "beyond space and time".
Computer games run on pure logic, but they represent totally un-realistic events, the logic is irrefutable but it does not mean people can jump over buildings in real life. Craigs logic, like Donkey Kong is based on asserted or imagined values hence the logical but unreal outcomes.
Perhaps I was asking for it when I called for an original thought! Alas your video game analogy is in a word, original. My hopes of gaining any meaningful insight into the logic behind your certainty are becoming dashed.
@ASeventhSign The logic behind my conclusion that god(s) do not exist is simple, not only is there no evidence of their existence, there is no evidence of their influence either. On these grounds alone there is no reason to even consider it.
My experience of logic comes from computer programming & industrial control, I came up with that thought independantly but I have heard it expressed in a similar way by others.
Crimes against humanity committed int he name of the christian god. The Crusades, The Witchhunt, The 30 year war. The Inquisition, The Conquistadores, the plunder and destrcution of the Indigenous cultures in the Americas. The participation in the slave-trade. The public support of Apartheid. The pogroms and expulsion of the jews in several christian countries. The publication of the worst anti-semitic racist publication ever. By thy fruits, you will be judged.
Its funny how if alot of the athiest on this fourm act if there so much smarter that the theist. But Dr, craig would destroy many of them in a debate and they know it....
So since they cant use reason and logic to beat the theist they use sophomoric insults to make them selves feel secure.
@JosephHolmes108 With theology onw can prove or disprove anything.. It`s well known, that lots of christians claim themselves to be better than others. Theology, the art of word-smithing to put a reasonable cloak on otherwise impossible propositions.
@tallliza thats the problem with many non belivers. They look at the worst examples of "christians" like the ones that think their better than others. Or the curption of the catholic church during the middle ages. and assume that all christians are like this.
Classic example of somebody of average intelligence trying to make sense of something incredibly complex. Not even the brightest minds have been able to work out all the answers.....but I bet you one thing - they're very unlikely to raise the white flag and start suggesting a supreme being created it all.
Religion requires little effort, its a simple idea for simple people.
@DIGITALSCREAMS Really? Many have Died for Jesus. As a Christian you must live your life for the one and only God. This doesn't prove God but it does say that by NO means can you call us lazy.
@pntblnguitarists Many have dies for communism. Does that make communisms right ? Many have died for Nazism. Does that make Nazism right ? Many have died for a plethora of ideologies.
Did you not listen to Dr. Craig speak precisely on objective morality? Do you understand the term objective morality? Surely you must be in the middle of the presentation.
We'll wait with baited breath while you actually watch the videos and then present your competing refutation.
Classic example of intellectual laziness. This tool offers nothing but unfounded opinion. No original thought. His only means of communication is a poor attempt at insulting intelligence, while illustrating his own inability to spell correctly.
@kdcox1205 - Which bible? and which quotes or passages exhorting rape, murder, incest, torture and genocide are changed by not reading to the whole book?
Indeed if you read the whole thing it fundamentally contradicts itself. For instance, the disciples wildly different takes on something as important as the ressurection is laughable.
Well why don't you explain what this god is and how its complex mind doesn't require a creator itself you don't get to just assert beings with out explaining there purpose if god exists then it too requires a purpose. Atheists don't have to explain anything we have no knowledge of thats why we study science instead of making assertions to explain mystery thats something you theists don't understand you have to take life on a gradient level not jump to stupid ideas thats not how we learn.
Of course atheists don't have to explain. Most, such as yourself are intellectually vapid at best, I submit your spelling and grammar as evidence exhibit A. I submit your jejune labeling of your intellectual superior as "stupid" as exhibit B.
Do enlighten us my atheist friend, what "science" do you study?
@ASeventhSign Well ya we don't have to explain anything we are refuting claims that are made we don't replace them with bullshit assertions we accept the lack of knowledge we have, get over it anyone who makes a claim has the burden of proof its only fair when your trying to convert everyone to your views, William Craig likes to assert this god to match up with the universe and appeal to our lack of understand of how it works but he can't get past the Barrier of proving its actual definition.
A coherent refutation is constructed with logic and evidence. Dr. Craig has presented his. The atheists on this discussion have offered nothing but insults and circuitous versions of "nuh uh!" Perhaps with your great studies of science you could enlighten us with your refutations of Dr. Craig's considerations?
@ASeventhSign Look at his aguments they only point out mystery but never can explain anything he still can't connect the dots to a prime being because he has no access to this thing its behind the curtain which still leaves it open to anything sorry you don't agree with that but its true you can assert anything you want behind his arguments aliens, we could all be in a giant test tube he can't assert a god because we made up the definintion but have no reality of it or actual evidence of gods.
"Look at his aguments they only point out mystery but never can explain anything..."
Which argument? Surly you comprehend the fundamental meaning of logic. Dr. Craig walks through five major points in this discussion. He illustrates the logic and the assumptions. He does so almost painfully slow.
You've repeatedly voiced your assumptions. I'm interested in any reasoning upon which you base your assumptions.
@ASeventhSign Its very simple with me your making it complicated for no reason i invite you to listen to Dr. Craigs arguments and find out how he is connecting the dots to a god, The thing is we can assume god to be anything we want because we have no reality on this concept we made it up anyways but Dr. Craig needs to defend the christian god and needs to stick with those traits of the bible and not a deistic one because then he isn't defending the christian faith anymore.
Of course it's very simple with you! You're constrained by neither logic nor reason! You're driven by your emotion, you lash out and insult concepts outside of your ken.
@ASeventhSign And you are the authority on such things why because your a christian? give me a break I have no emotion on things i don't believe in and incorrect am driven by logic and reason i oparate my senses in this reality and not go beyond my barrier of understanding like a scientist would and should. You can defend this idea (god) if you wish but at least admit you have no evidence or definition for such a thing with out the object or essence of the this being you "can't" say it exists.
I never claimed to be an authority. I simply illustrated that you're incapable of presenting a single reasoned refutation for any of the points made by Dr. Craig. You claim logic and reason yet present neither. The presentation is Dr. Craig's not mine. Although I do agree with him, I can take no credit. The video indeed presents evidence. Present your refutation or quote another author's objections. But don't lie and claim no evidence exists.
@ASeventhSign I just said it doesn't because it only points to mystery not directly to a god he didn't connect the dots becaue you can't its behind a curtain where our knowledge can't reach you haven't listened to his arguments very well, Just because Dr. Craig showed us that there is unexplained forces out there doesn't mean you jump in and say it was a god, mystery doesn't explain another mystery that doesn't complete our knowledge on the subject it makes it more confussing.
@ASeventhSign The most unrational unlogical thing to do is to assume or jump to conclusions before the evidence is in and thats not how we learn, no matter what our science discovers your always going to throw your god behind it hows that logical? I think no matter what i say your always going to throw a god concept into the mess so its really usless to even rationalize or debate with you at least am free to think with new ideas and concepts you can't your views are under the caption of christ.
@ASeventhSign Here is some of my evidence to refute your claim for example the fail of prayer the purposless randomness effects of the universe points to none intelligence the wastfulness of the all the mass, energy and space in the universe points to none intelligent design, The very idea that a mind which can only oparate with information could exist before information itself was created you can't have a computer with out a programer so where did this god get its first thought out of nothing?
Again, perhaps you're confused, the arguments presented in this video are Dr. William Craig's and not mine. Although I agree with his presentation, this distinction must be made.
"Fail of prayer"? Although this would make a great name for a metal band, as it stands it is hardly a reason or argument. Please elaborate on this and cite your sources.
It is clear you've yet to watch the videos. Please view and pay special attention to his second point.
@ASeventhSign Cite my sources? Read your dam bible its clear in its words you ask and you shale receive am not going to get into this am not the only ex-christian that has proven the big flops of prayer even you have to admit it doesn't always delivery come on now be honest here? Prayer is rolling the dice i don't care what you say. Dr. Craig is paid to say what ever that is most convincing to the layman with views that appeal to the unknown thats it i have gone over this in my studies.
@ASeventhSign How many children have had a choice to believe what they choose? how may have been taught to believe the bible was true before they could even read? your brought up to this dogmatic thinking so in fairness i forgive you for your insults, But anyways you are good at one thing and thats asserting not proving and thats the very problem with theism altogether. We have in my atheist meetings already have destroyed Dr. Craigs arguments we aren't buying into assertions only evidence.
@ASeventhSign You're an intellectual coward.. And you are are such a civilized ,christian debator !!! You don`t even know your gospels, .. Blessed are the arrogant and the self-righteous, for they shall inherit the earth...
@ASeventhSign All the different views of theism out there only reflexs your lack of knowledge of what you all really believe because its an idea not a reality your trying to make a imaginative idea come to life by asserting it as the producer or first cause in which you have no way in hell of proven it. Your views are stuck in the bible and if you venture away from that like Craigs does you can't call yourself a christian or theist period. Off the pathway just a little bit i know
You refuse to watch the very video you're commenting on. You surrender all credibility when questioning one's intelligence. Your lack of critical thinking skills is staggering. Perhaps you'd like to try again?
Let's recap. Your reasoned refutations of Dr. Craig's presentation are:
a) Prayers fail
b) There appears to be random effects in the universe Do you have any other gems of rational thought to share with us?
@ASeventhSign I lack critical thinking? Your views come from the bible so i don't think i need to go there really lol no insults please keep it real here will ya.
@ASeventhSign Saying it doesn't make it true in my book please am tired of the assertions here my god give me some evidence for once will ya? One more 'assertion" out of you and we are done here?
@ASeventhSign You don't like invalidations i can understand that but you must understand we aren't primitive middle eastern sand people anymore you need more beef for your arguments if we are going to assume its true, Faith is dead and has no place in modern aspects of life we can know things if we try we don't need to just gamble out of fear of the unknown. I have lived on both sides of the fence you haven't so who are you to challenge my views when you haven't left the yard?
Which of the points presented by Dr. Craig need more 'beef'? There are five main examples. Pick your favorite, any one, and tell us which of his supporting arguments needs 'beef'.
@ASeventhSign Its a fair question indeed but i can't get into this on youtube as much as i would like to but i can't spend all my time on these subjects am not the expert its just a hobbie of mine to challenge belief but i will say i don't think your stupid and infact you could have a higher IQ then me i don't know and if i said that am mistaken and sorry, We disagree yes but that doesn't make us enemies but i have to give up on this its been fun and fraustrating but a learning experince for me.
@ASeventhSign It seems we agree that something cannot come from nothing. Only in the bible does something come from nothing. THIS universe had a beginning.. If you believe in biblical creation, of course, it must have a creator. But there was NO biblical creation. "Transcending time and space" is theological bullshit. If you accept this dogma, you can prove anything, As soon as there is something ,there is time and space. Only theology has a way around this.
@wachnathan Man, for your own sanity ,stop trying to get the upper hand against these' theologians". Their theological arguments(word-smithing) will ultimately come down to dogma or miracles, for which , of course, they cannot provide evidence. The source of christian theology,Europe, has allready been overrun by reason. Western Europe is virtually pagan, Guys like Craig,and our friend Seventhsign, are a dying breed. They are fighting rear-guard skirmishes. We just have to wait them out.
@ASeventhSign Why don`t you begin by proving credibility of the bible, the base of your theology, your book of objective morality, ? After all if there is a god, as you assert, his word must be easy to authenticate.
@ASeventhSign "Fail of prayer"? Although this would make a great name for a metal band, as it stands it is hardly a reason or argument. Please elaborate on this and cite your sources... Look it up man. Studies have been done. Prayers are absolutely ineffective in earthly matters.
@tallliza Firstly the bible needs no defense. If you took some time to read it you would realise that it is self authenticating, meaning that it needs outside assistance to prove its creadibility. However if you want one, have a look at the new testament. When looking at a historical document you take into consideration the number of ancient copies you have and the period of time since the origonal. In both of these cases the new testament has far more evidence than any other historical document
@samsonsjawbone If you took the time to read the bible, like any other book with your brain(not your heart) wou would realise that the bible defeats itself. Just one exemple : The god of the O.T. is totally incompatible with the god of the New-Testament. The number of ancient copies in NO WAY prove the authenticity of the writings. The number of copies of harry Potter books don``t prove anyhting. You have zero writings of eyewitnesses. There are a thousand reasons why the bible cannot be true.
@tallliza The God of the Old testament is not at odds with the new. If you had any vague understanding of the bible you would realise that. Secondly the whole of the new testament was written in the life time of eyewitnesses, some books only several years after the the death and resirection of Jesus Christ. There were thousands of eyewitnesses who saw what Jesus did and were able to read the accounts, later written, which we have as the gospels today.
@samsonsjawbone You have lots of fantasy. There is not a single piece of writing by eyewitnesses. The earliest shred of gospels date from about AD 70. Please study ,my friend, and don`t make yourself ridiculous. The average lifespan in biblical times was no more than 40 years. That means that 10 years after Jesus(supposed ) resurrection the apostles were mostly dead. The writings you have is hearsay from hearsay.
@samsonsjawbone You have been brainwashed. I tell you again(check it out) the earliest shred of gospel dates from decades after christ. There is not a single wirting done by an eyewitness.
@tallliza A Generation after his life actually by people who physically knew him, were related to him and who had also been touched by him. I dont know where you get your information from but its bullshit.
Far as history goes it doesnt get better than the Bible. 39,000 Manuscripts, For the works of Plato there is like 10 but Universities and academic places do not have a hard time believing any of his works or his existence. Nothing matches the Bibles weight in accuracy for history and truth.
@ASeventhSign Humans got there information from progress or a process of evolution, information existed before us so we can explain our intelligents but we didn't get it from nothing like your god did, If you can actually give logical rational reasons for my questions then we can come to some conclusions about a universal house keeper. One more thing i can only learn what our science shows us and thats it thats all we as limited beings can learn but we must never go and assume beyond our reach.
@ASeventhSign To attack the bible is to crush the faundation of theism which is where your god was asserted into reality in the first place and if Dr. Craig would just stick with those concepts of god in the bible he has lost the debate already but he ventures outside of it and makes up a deistic version of god instead by assuming its attributes to match up with the affects of the universe basically putting it behind the curtain he isn't really defending a christian god because he can't.
@ASeventhSign You lack understanding of my views i am refutting claims of others i don't replace it because am not claiming anything can you get this concept? Yes the bible has good stuff in it am not saying it doesn't but the problem is that a lot if is mythical and confussing you can't have fact and myth mixed together it skrews up our views of reality. I only accept things that are realistic that we can access not acknowledge things that can't be proven or disprove such as god.
Many subjects are confusing. Why would you dismiss God and the evidence presented by Dr. Craig and describe those who comprehend as "stupid" when it is you that lack both Biblical understanding and any logical arguments against those presented?
@ASeventhSign I don't dismiss his arguments there very clever but there also not evidence of a god but evidence of our lack of understanding of how the universe work,s besides i just told you that we can't know what a god is because we have no reality on one ive never been in contact with one to even know what a god is all i can do is mirror myself as one but thats not evidence. I am open to evidence if its actually evidence i can't acknowledge a god but only hold it as a possiblity.
@ASeventhSign The only thing i think is stupid and unrational is a religion based on very poor evidence in fact none convincing to me what so ever. Once again the evidence is already refuted because there isn't any to begin with get that through your head comrade am a neutral person here am not attacking you am saying your so called evidence is garbage because it doesn't actually prove there is a god out it only proves the universe is oparating some way or some how that we dont understand.
@ASeventhSign Just because the universe is oparating in a random way almost like a robot doesn't mean there is a god, why is that so hard to get through your heads why is that so offensive? Thats what bugs me the most about religous people there so narrow minded about other possiblities to the point were you will never learn anything new because you only see what you wanna see and nothing more, I think your religion has failed its time to move on to others and refute them now tell am convinced.
You see you can't define something you can't access or test and not everyone agrees with what this god really is so you can't say god exists you just can't all theism has is the agreement that it exists thats it. I don't understand why theists get so mad at people that disagree sorry but its our right to disagree not all of us are convinced by theistic claims you have to accept it thats why theism will fail to convert the world there not enough proof.
"You see you can't define something you can't access or test..."
You might want to rethink this one there sport.
You're not simply disagreeing with theists. You lack the intellectual muscle to effectively present your conflicted opinions. You resort to labeling us as "stupid". I find amusement in your folly. So, again I ask with great interest, perhaps with your great studies of "science" you could enlighten us with your refutations of Dr. Craig's considerations?
@ASeventhSign Hey man. Did you get your punctuation right!! You must be proud, knowing the grammar and spelling of what is, most probably, your mothertongue. Thunderous applause !!
Hush, hush. Do you hear that? It's the faint whistle of talliza's train of thought trailing off into the distance.
Have you reconsidered your previous claims? Perhaps a restful sleep has blessed you with some clarity with which you could define your position on the subject matter. Please share with us!
yes it is :-)
greekmanos 1 week ago
WLC destroys all these Atheists, it's great to watch all his debates.
DiatonicSoul 3 weeks ago
Aaaaarhhh i started listening to it again, I read somewhere else that this guy is the foremost defender of Christianity, but REALLY...... I get a headache from listening to this.... sorry... fool.. he is soooo SMOG... about his oponent: "if he is to justify an affirmative answer to tonight's question (that god is a delusion) then he does owe us such arguments".. does he also "owe" an explanation of why Allah, flying teapots and the Spaghetti Monster are not real?? ...Jeeez this guy is annoying
Andersxman 3 months ago
@Andersxman .. it is sad that your mind is not open enough to understand that the LORD is GOD and the TRUTH the LIGHT and SALVATION. FUCK YOU HEATHEN and BURN IN HELL. Hahahaha! I will be SAVED and you, fucking unbeliever, will BURN in ANGUISH!
PeterBretthauser 3 months ago
@PeterBretthauser ok so your either being sarcastic or completly misguided lol Regardless which it actually is, saying things like that wont save you at all, you teach never scold people of the ways of Christ not tell them of their "fate". We do not hold that place to judge, that is Gods and Gods alone.
92xtaylor 2 months ago
@92xtaylor You will burn too. Mark my words - I am not an extremist, or a fundamentalist or anything - I am simply a Christian who takes my religion and it sources the way they SHOULD be taken: LITERALLY! The BIBLE is HOLY and it is the WORD OF GOD, the LORD! So it is simple: accept Jesus Christ as your personal saviour, or BURN!!
PeterBretthauser 2 months ago
@PeterBretthauser im a Christian too you must be forgeting the part where Jesus said in the Gospel, love thy nebighor like thy self, and also bad things you say defile the heart, oh cant forget dont judge others for its not our place.
92xtaylor 2 months ago
@92xtaylor you are selecting the wrong parts of the bible to focus on. Ignore them, would be my advise!! As a religious person, you MUST focus on the basic truth: there is only 1 GOD, and followers of other religions and non believers are doomed!! I am a normal Christian, but I REALLY cannot comprehend why we should not condemn in the harshest way non-belief and worshipping of other gods. See what the LORD made MOSES do when he founds his ppl worshipping the golden calf: KILL THOUSANDS.
PeterBretthauser 2 months ago
@PeterBretthauser you are forgeting one basic thing, you are not God you cant do anything like that nor condemm them.
92xtaylor 2 months ago
@92xtaylor I have truly accepted JESUS CHRIST as my personal saviour - that makes me GOD LIKE and gives me GODS intuition in many cases - in THIS case I CERTAINLY have GODs intuition - and let me tell you something: GOD spoke to me in a dream and he assured me that I and ONLY I and a low % of the worlds population is pius and correct enough in their daily WORSHIP OF THE LORD to be SAVED at the end of time. You mark my words: I am GOD LIKE, I am NOT GOD, but - ALMOST, as I ACCEPT JESUS as my SAVI
PeterBretthauser 2 months ago
@PeterBretthauser if course you arent god , and im not god. no one is god as matter of fact now if god was all pure and good and "perfect`as this life isnt perfect at all. why would sacrifice him. and resurect him meaning as if it sound extremly stupid. especially in the year 0 which was 2000 years ago. now jesus is your savior but what did he save you in? i would understand in saving you from almost dying or like shit like that but wouldnt that be a coincidence?
hypnotiq171 1 month ago
@hypnotiq171 Good question! How can Jesus' dying and resurrecting 2000 years ago mean anything at all today?
All normal human beings, born into this world are born in "sin", being not just guilty of what we do, but also of what we are capable of doing, since God judges the heart, according to the Bible.
Just as God passed judgement on Sodom and Gomorrah, and also at the flood during the time of Noah, ...
signmanbob2 2 weeks ago
@signmanbob2 His intention would have been to pass judgement on all of mankind unless He would take a human form and take upon Himself the judgement that He would have directed toward all of humankind.
Since God is timeless and uncaused, existing outside of our boundaries of time and space , His judgement for all humans, carried out upon Himself in the form of Jesus of Nazareth, is also timeless and without bounds. Thus no normal flesh human being could have...
signmanbob2 2 weeks ago
@signmanbob2 ...paid the penalty of God's judgement because they would not have existed outside of time-space restriction, as Jesus did. This is why, although Jesus came 2000 years ago, what he did is still good today to those who believe in Him.
signmanbob2 2 weeks ago
@signmanbob2 even though Jesus was a good man but making us regret for him sounds insane. as i believe this life scientifically destroys religion. and Noah story is genocidal. and just the point that god is here to watch you 24/7 shows a sign of anyone who believes in any religion is dependent. which can get extreme. and also he can convict us of thought crime . meaning that religion is sort of slavery just in secret.
hypnotiq171 3 days ago
@hypnotiq171 If Jesus was just a "good man", he could have never offered us a reconnection to God through salvation. We don't "regret" for Jesus. We will regret if we turn our backs to him.
You have a body, but you are not your body. Your body will die and decay.
You are your soul. Your thoughts, your decisions, your emotions are from your soul, which will return to God who made it.
It's nice for some to think we answer to no one, but that's not the case.
signmanbob2 3 days ago
@signmanbob2 science is the truth about our nature and religion tries to ignore it as if they reject evidence. why would god reject condoms in catholicism as the pope says. and that creationists hates catholics but worship the same god.... irrelevant.
but if i dont answer to no one and that my soul will return to god then he has betrayed me because my thoughts said i dont want to answer him. so basically im being Forced to see him.
hypnotiq171 2 days ago
@hypnotiq171 Science is truth about our physical nature only, but we know that we are more than physical. If every thought originated from strictly physical nature, then our thoughts would narrow only to survival, hunger, reproduction and comfort. We know that our thoughts go much further because our thoughts originate in our soul. Yet science does not understand the soul because it can't measure it.
Because Christianity has been misunderstood or misused does not make it void.
signmanbob2 2 days ago
@signmanbob2 The concept of having a soul is based on a lack of understanding about respiration and consciousness. Ancient mystics noticed the air inside of people caused the lungs to raise and fall then when they die the air stops flowing through them. As the air leaves our bodies, so does life. These observations are what the concept of the soul is based upon.
Rookerfy 1 day ago
@Rookerfy Because those ancient people may have mistaken the last breath as the release of the soul, doesn't mean that is the bases for all belief in the soul
Ancient people thought that the Moon was the face of a man. The Moon most certainly exist, yet we know now that it is a natural satellite of the Earth and not a man's face.
Like wise the soul is the essense of who we are. It is the deep origin of thought and character that defines us and gives us self awareness.
signmanbob2 1 day ago
@signmanbob2 why would a Muslim kill for the name of Allah or suicide bomb to support his belief. just to receive a reward of 72 virgins in heaven as such an immoral quote from the Qur'an itself. and that the Hadith says apostasy in Islam is death. immoral. That Jews circumcise male genitals just thinking that its part of culture and belief but scientifically proved to hurt the baby. and also lose of extra pleasure for life. ......
hypnotiq171 2 days ago
@hypnotiq171 You bring up good points about the fallacies of religious rituals which I also agree with you on, but they have nothing to do with the existance of God or the salvation of Jesus.
You have to cut through the smoke and mirrors of the worldly self-interests of the religious instutions to find the truth and benefit which the Salvation of Jesus has for your soul.
This is why the Catholic church tried desparatly for years to keep people from reading the Bible.
signmanbob2 2 days ago
@signmanbob2 we both have the same point of views on these morals. but basically your saying that these morals have nothing to do with jesus, nor allah, and etc... as these morals(the holy books) are apparently made from these gods. also about science cant prove that your thoughts can be infinite and stay mysterious as it is. and we are mostly finding out on the universe itself and if it is infinite or not
hypnotiq171 1 day ago
@hypnotiq171 as we are working on it, but us atheist really do remain skeptical still because we are still on the process are trying to find answers of where he have originated which might take us decades to find out though i wont decide to beleive in god and ignore about how we found fossils in mars or their can be a sign of evolution on the 2nd moon of jupiter "europa" as we found bacteria organisms. but the point is that will they evolve in certain decades?
hypnotiq171 1 day ago
@hypnotiq171 aand the theory of big bang, how their is an atheist point of view and an intelligent design point of view of it. Though intelligent design think its superstition and that the answer is already their for big bang as science keeps looking for the answer as maybe one day we might know the facts. BUT their is no evidence for anything yet. and as i said the religious reject evidence for reasons on superstitions
hypnotiq171 1 day ago
@signmanbob2 now what if a Muslim was going to tell you i circumcised my daughters clitoris and put stitches on her genitals at the age of 6. what would you think of this ABSOLUTE morality as if these morals were written by these gods therefore these moral were written by force for us to do them.I want a moral that is reasoned and discussed and thought to change the cycle of this type of cause of death.
hypnotiq171 2 days ago
@PeterBretthauser "you're selecting the wrong parts of the bible" lol who the hell are you to say which parts of the bible are wrong? I think that for a Christian, Jesus' teachings should be the main parts of the bible to focus on, don't you?
nicocap24 2 months ago in playlist Is God a Delusion? 6
This guy is deluded! Richard Dawkins would have a field day with a nutter like this - just one thing to defeat this poor man's arguments: even if the universe startet at some point, he has proven absolutely NOTHING by envoking a creator, absolutely zero. Basic question: why would the beginning of everything be created by an intelligent being? Then were did the ingelligent being come from? The burden of evidence is on HIM to prove god's existence, and NONE exists, not a TINY shred of evidence!!!
Andersxman 3 months ago
@Andersxman - - absolutely WRONG!! God exists because HE IS GOD!!.... Another, very easy to understand observation: the BIBLE is the book of TRUTH, and in the BIBLE it says that GOD is GOD - - - so if it says so in the book of TRUTH...... Well...... I am sorry, all your arguments fall apart... It is simply true... You can see the logic, no?
PeterBretthauser 3 months ago
@PeterBretthauser hmmmm.... You are joking, right?
Andersxman 3 months ago
@CannotEscapeReality Cognitive distance theory, Evolution theory, String theory, multiverse theory, this is more so a form of blind faith, as none of these theories have crossed the line into fact. Professor Craig uses the highest forms of logic which still to this day no prominent Atheist has been able to refute, including Richard Dawkins who continuously refuses to debate him.
ivhoven 3 months ago
@ivhoven Gravity theory. Lol. These scientists with all their theories.
KingWithoutaCause 3 months ago
@ivhoven See antybu86's "Oh, What a Tangled Web". For cogent defenses of atheism, see, as an intro, Dave Steele's *Atheism Explained*. For more academically-oriented works, see, e.g., Mike Martin's work (especially *Atheism: A Philosophical Justification*), Nick Everitt's *The Non-Existence of God*, and Richard Gale, *On the Nature and Existence of God*. (See also Anthony Kenny, *The God of the Philosophers*.) WLC should rebut these works: He hasn't because he can't.
MCP2012 3 months ago
I've had just about all I can stand from Craig when he babbles on and on about the "self-contradictory" mathematics of infinity. He simply doesn't know what he's talking about. How can a man be so ignorant of Cantor's great work on this subject? And Craig never understands that if infinity is a contradictory idea, then so is the idea of an inifinite God. Hello?
jimtrueblue99 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
DARwin saw in an ape, Marilyn Monroe.
AntiChrista4WPeace 4 months ago
Craig should come visit USC.
07Aristotle 4 months ago
oh wow I didn't know Craig came to our shores!! cool :) darn wish I had been there!!!
Sophiethefembot 5 months ago in playlist Is God a Delusion?
Craig literally says the exact same thing every debate. Almost word for word even. He's such a twat, playing the same semantic games and begging the question every time...
wownov83 6 months ago
I can't listen any more. This is disgraceful. This guy's reasoning is horrible. dreadful. Who gave this man a PhD?
mouthyweasel 7 months ago
Being the cause of time and space as we know it does not require that you yourself be uncaused. sorry. It just doesn't.
mouthyweasel 7 months ago
@mouthyweasel
"sorry. It just doesn't." - Just? Nothing like begging the question.
BassP86 5 months ago in playlist Is God a Delusion?
Comment removed
mouthyweasel 7 months ago
@mouthyweasel Actually if you had listened to the entire debate he answers this question with a rational answer. I challenge you to watch this putting aside feelings, pre-conceived ideas, or cultural conventions, and you will understand who is more rational. 1luv
Shalom
Diachi26 7 months ago
@Diachi26
"I challenge you to watch this putting aside feelings, pre-conceived ideas"
Craig knows all about preconceived ideas. In his book "Reasonable Faith" he writes:
"Should a conflict arise between the witness of the Holy Spirit to the fundamental truth of the Christian faith and beliefs based on argument and evidence, then it is the former which must take precedence over the latter."
'Nuff said.
MomoTheBellyDancer 6 months ago
"My history of the Jesuits is not eloquently written, but it is supported by unquestionable authorities, [and] is very particular and very horrible. Their [the Jesuit Order’s] restoration [in 1814 by Pope Pius VII] is indeed a step toward darkness, cruelty, despotism, [and] death. … I do not like the appearance of the Jesuits. If ever there was a body of men who merited eternal damnation on earth and in hell, it is this Society of [Ignatius de] Loyola."
John Adams (2nd President of the U.S)
SHAOLINSINZ 7 months ago
Comment removed
ginganz13 7 months ago
GOD(s) - Hide and Seek Champion of the Universe 100,000 years in a row!
ginganz13 7 months ago
@ginganz13
Thank you for illustrating the defining characteristic of the modern atheist!
When presented with classical logic, reason and science they respond with simple-minded and naive insults.
At least construct a humorous insult of your own design that we can enjoy!
ASeventhSign 7 months ago
I see quite a few atheists engaged in the discussion. I use the term engaged very loosely. Weakly constructed insults seem to be the norm. I've asked a few of these paragons of intellectual prowess to simply express their reasoned disagreements with those presented in the video. Not a single lucid answer arises. A few assertions, a few insults, but not one single construction of logic.
I've heard very good arguments in the past, but modern atheists appear utterly hopeless.
ASeventhSign 7 months ago
@ASeventhSign Theology, the art of worth-smithing to put a rational cloak on otherwise irrational propositions. No scientist should ever debate a theologian non-scientist . it `s a waste of time. Let theologists defend the bible and scientists defend science. And let religion be judged by it`s fruits.
tallliza 7 months ago
@tallliza Craig works with science too...He rarely ever brings scripture into debates...just logic, science and reality...So personally i think that argument is a cop out for you trying to find excuses for guys like Dawkins who run scared from having their image tarnished like the long list of atheists who tried debating Craig. People don't want to accept it because it means being wrong. But Craigs never lost an argument because truth and logic guide him and he destroys oppononents arguments
SHAOLINSINZ 7 months ago
@tallliza irony...You say let religion be judged by its fruits...so now your spouting statements from the Bible but using them as your own? come on now you should know better....Let each individual be judged by their own fruits and let the ignorant who do not pay attention to the reality that does prove God. Let them also be judged for their ability to walk around with their fingers in their ears only choosing to listen to wafflers like Dawkins.
We are much more than animals we are spiritual.
SHAOLINSINZ 7 months ago
@SHAOLINSINZ The reality does not prove god at all. The reality proves the absence of a loving, caring, compassionate, just ,almighty god. Spiritualityl does not mean believe in a god. Bouddhist have spirituality too, Don`t they ?
tallliza 7 months ago
@tallliza Reality proves God in endless ways, The Thumb ALONE would prove Gods existence to me let alone the Fact the Sun is the perfect distance away from the planet to feed life and make it flourish instead of kill and burn everything on the planet...But i forget you atheists believe in endless coincidence and chance, Your like failed gamblers holding onto your last bit of change to use in the fruit machines.
Buddhists believe in a variety of Gods and that man himself can become equal to God
SHAOLINSINZ 7 months ago
@SHAOLINSINZ Reality proves God in endless ways... That is your personal opinion. Nothing else.... The Thumb ALONE would prove Gods existence... Oh sure, and the shape of the banana too, right ? Study some anatomy and you will see how slopily we are put . Start with the eye. First sentence from a publication about Buddhism.....The refutation[1] of the notion of a supreme God or a prime mover is seen as a key distinction between Buddhism and other religions... The buddists have no god. Period.
tallliza 7 months ago
@SHAOLINSINZ Is it a crime to spout statements from the bible . Maybe you feel unconfortable, when I put your nose in your own mostard. ...The crimes of individuals acting in the name of the christian god, are the responsability and the shame of christianity. .
tallliza 7 months ago
@tallliza
Where is it a crime to quote the Bible? What the heck is a mostard?
You're clearly distinguished as the least credible person engaged in this discussion. Congratulations.
However ...
We would all still love to hear a single reasoned refutation of any point made in the video.
ASeventhSign 7 months ago
@ASeventhSign What the heck is a mostard.... MUSTARD silly !! .. ... You're clearly distinguished as the least credible person engaged in this discussion.. Unlike you, I feel very comcortable in this position . I have no need to feel superior, unlike you. I have no intention in refuting any points made by a theologian. They have been refuted many times over. You christians,of all people, have the arrogance, to claim that you can prove god. If there is one, he must be unknowable.
tallliza 7 months ago
@tallliza
Again, another weakly constructed insult.
Reach deep and give us a reasoned response. Many of us are interested in the source of your faith in science.
The only science I've heard in this discussion was from Dr. Craig.
Again, we await your reasoned response.
ASeventhSign 7 months ago
@tallliza
Yikes! Try wikipedia for a definition on theology. Surely you contradict your claim of wasted time. Confusion abounds when a learned individual such as Dr. Craig displays a superior understanding of science than those who place their faith solely within it. Surely you're not yet another atheist ill prepared to illustrate your assertions.
Please share with us your refutations of the presentation.
ASeventhSign 7 months ago
@ASeventhSign. Bullshit need not be refuted,
tallliza 7 months ago
@tallliza
You're priceless!
Are you a Christian trying to make atheists look bad? I especially love the comma as the ending punctuation! It's as if your train of thought just sputtered to a halt!
ASeventhSign 7 months ago
@ASeventhSign Hey guys, this NUT knows English. His mothertongue. Congratulations, my friend, You did it.
tallliza 7 months ago
@tallliza
Please, by all means, tell us where you received your secondary education!
Just when I started to feel a little guilty for mocking such an easy target, you blather more senselessness!
Your simple train of thought just kills me! "I think I can, I think I can..."
Okay, okay, now you say something!
ASeventhSign 7 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@ASeventhSign Please by all means tell us were you lost touch with reality . In what madrassah ?.
tallliza 7 months ago
@ASeventhSign - Conservatively, about 80,000 years of Human existance - and not a sign of any of the thousands of god(s). "Is God a Delusion" - till you can prove it they all are.
The real question for Craig is 'when the nature of time and space is understood where will his god hide then?'
ginganz13 7 months ago
Again, you're failing to comprehend the basic nature of making a valid argument. Have you no original thoughts usable in a discussion of the video you're commenting on? Indeed you cause one to question your even watching the video in question. Assertion comes easy to unqualified objection. I implore you; challenge yourself. Defend your faith with fact. Have courage worthy of your convictions.
Again, we await even a poorly constructed refutation against any of Dr. Craig's arguments.
ASeventhSign 7 months ago
@ASeventhSign It's not my faith in question - The debate title is; "Is God a Delusion".
"Knowing something beyond space and time" is a pretty fantastic assertion in it's own right. How does he know? If he cannot say the rest of his argument is invalid.
Assertions about god(s) are hardly original does that make them invalid too?
ginganz13 7 months ago
@ginganz13
There you go again, you're abject refusal to question your dogma prohibits you from engaging in the most elementary of discussions. An open mind truly empowers the rational thinker.
Yet again, I ask you to formulate your thoughts as a basic contention of the arguments made by Dr. Craig.
Perhaps the subject matter is simply outside your ken? Your obstinate reactions have a rather jejune and spiteful tone. You refuse to answer the simplest questions.
ASeventhSign 7 months ago
Isn't the god of the bible said to be an infinite, eternal entity. Yet he says nothing is infinite. More non sequitur ramblings from those who refuse to realize that this life is all we have; that nothing is waiting for us . Life is consciousness period.
brianbgood 7 months ago
@brianbgood God's infinity is qualitative, whereas infinity when applied to things like events or time is quantitative.
atbigdog24002 7 months ago
@brianbgood
Wow, I think you actually managed to misunderstand the entire concept. Congratulations.
ASeventhSign 7 months ago
@ASeventhSign What concept, in your deluded estimation did I misunderstand? Did I misunderstand that your deity's cure for leprosy involves finding two doves, killing one then dipping the wings of the living dove into the blood of the dead one. This followed by repreated spinkling of bird blood onto the said leper. Lev 14: 49-53.
Did I misunderstand that your loving god sanctioned the Israeli land grab while condoning that every living thing standing tin their way be destroyed?
Elaborate
brianbgood 7 months ago
@brianbgood
Apparently you did misunderstand! You should watch the video before making such foolish statements.
But...
Lev 14:49-53 describe a ritual purification, not a cure. Are you seriously this incapable of original thought? Your simple minded regurgitation of an old atheist standby is laughable. Try reading again.
Yes, God delivered Israel. Your characterization is naive, but expected.
ASeventhSign 7 months ago
Further, you should try and form a coherent thought about the subjects discussed in the video. Your attention deficient rambling is hardly germane to the discussion. Are we moving to quickly for you?
ASeventhSign 7 months ago
@ASeventhSign I applaud the breadth of intellectual evasion you're employing. Well done! Please continue to braodcast your non- answers to my questions. Or, perhaps you could stop being an elitest Snark who honestly believes that there was a fish taxi, enflamed bushes who speak, talking donkeys, talking snakes and people who rise from the dead and try and craft something that resembles a cogent and lucid response.
brianbgood 7 months ago
@brianbgood
Intellectual evasion? I responded to your childish remarks. I do however admit an amusement at illustrating the antagonistic atheist's shortcomings. Perhaps a cursory read of Leviticus before blathering would suit you.
Which of Dr. Craig's arguments can you possibly refute?
Please offer more than the amusing "Life is consciousness period.". Truly a well reasoned argument!
ASeventhSign 7 months ago
Three years ago I attended this debate as a staunch atheist. Today I am a Catholic.
Mystagogia87 7 months ago
@Mystagogia87 good luck defending the child rapists and nazi supporters...
ginganz13 7 months ago
@ginganz13 I don't. I defend the creed. What a reasoned, cogent argument! So like the new atheists. Is this really what you want the public level of discourse to become?
Mystagogia87 7 months ago
@Mystagogia87 Are you a Catholic or not? What is an Athieist like? I would very much like for public discourse to center on people who proclaim support for an organisation that supports child rpaists and Nazi supporters.
ginganz13 7 months ago
@ginganz13 "What is an Athieist like?"
The new popular atheism is heavy on anger and rhetorical jabs, but short on substance and arguments. Man, I wish I'd lived when existentialism was flourishing. That was an intellectually exciting atheism...
"I would very much like for public discourse to center on people who proclaim support for an organisation that supports child rpaists and Nazi supporters."
I'm against Nazis and rape, precisely as a Catholic. Oy vey...
Mystagogia87 7 months ago
@Mystagogia87 - Atheism is a lack of beleif in god(s) your other observations are incidental and not necesarily anything to do with being an atheist.
Lack of substantive argument religions biggest problem - not a single shred of evidence for it's absurd claims.
You may well personally be against Nazi's & child rape but the organisation you proclaim to be a part of is not. Its a bit like playing for Manchester United while objecting about football.
ginganz13 7 months ago
@ginganz13
Did you even listen to what was said?
Why not start with the 5 points outlined in the video. How do you reach your conclusion that they "Lack substantive argument"?
ASeventhSign 7 months ago 5
@ASeventhSign 'Substantive' in the grammatical sense of the word, expressing material existance. There not a shred of epistemic proof, which for the claimant is at best embarrasing given the extent of influence attributed to these claims.
ginganz13 7 months ago
@ginganz13
Do you really not understand that you have yet to make a single argument? Your opinion is duly noted, do you have anything to offer? Do you have any original thoughts that would refute the logic and evidence presented by Dr. Craig in the video?
ASeventhSign 7 months ago
@ASeventhSign It's neither argument or opinion, it is a fact, there is no evidence of Craig's 'god'. Craig has never presented any 'evidence' and cannot which is why he has to 'hide' his god "beyond space and time".
Computer games run on pure logic, but they represent totally un-realistic events, the logic is irrefutable but it does not mean people can jump over buildings in real life. Craigs logic, like Donkey Kong is based on asserted or imagined values hence the logical but unreal outcomes.
ginganz13 7 months ago
@ginganz13
Perhaps I was asking for it when I called for an original thought! Alas your video game analogy is in a word, original. My hopes of gaining any meaningful insight into the logic behind your certainty are becoming dashed.
ASeventhSign 7 months ago
@ASeventhSign The logic behind my conclusion that god(s) do not exist is simple, not only is there no evidence of their existence, there is no evidence of their influence either. On these grounds alone there is no reason to even consider it.
My experience of logic comes from computer programming & industrial control, I came up with that thought independantly but I have heard it expressed in a similar way by others.
ginganz13 7 months ago
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ginganz13 7 months ago
@Mystagogia87 Was that the time of shopenhauer and nietzsche?
Drgamedood 7 months ago
Crimes against humanity committed int he name of the christian god. The Crusades, The Witchhunt, The 30 year war. The Inquisition, The Conquistadores, the plunder and destrcution of the Indigenous cultures in the Americas. The participation in the slave-trade. The public support of Apartheid. The pogroms and expulsion of the jews in several christian countries. The publication of the worst anti-semitic racist publication ever. By thy fruits, you will be judged.
tallliza 8 months ago
Comment removed
MrAncientalien 8 months ago
@MrAncientalien
Although your spelling and grammar are atrocious, I'm curious as to the source of your data.
ASeventhSign 7 months ago
@MrAncientalien
I assume the removal of your comment expresses your disinterest in validating your uneducated claims with any data?
ASeventhSign 7 months ago
Its funny how if alot of the athiest on this fourm act if there so much smarter that the theist. But Dr, craig would destroy many of them in a debate and they know it....
So since they cant use reason and logic to beat the theist they use sophomoric insults to make them selves feel secure.
JosephHolmes108 9 months ago 8
@JosephHolmes108 With theology onw can prove or disprove anything.. It`s well known, that lots of christians claim themselves to be better than others. Theology, the art of word-smithing to put a reasonable cloak on otherwise impossible propositions.
tallliza 8 months ago
@tallliza thats the problem with many non belivers. They look at the worst examples of "christians" like the ones that think their better than others. Or the curption of the catholic church during the middle ages. and assume that all christians are like this.
JosephHolmes108 8 months ago
@tallliza
Well known? Theology is the art of word-smithing?
Wow, just wow...
ASeventhSign 7 months ago
Classic example of somebody of average intelligence trying to make sense of something incredibly complex. Not even the brightest minds have been able to work out all the answers.....but I bet you one thing - they're very unlikely to raise the white flag and start suggesting a supreme being created it all.
Religion requires little effort, its a simple idea for simple people.
Thats all there is too it.
DIGITALSCREAMS 10 months ago
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@DIGITALSCREAMS wow what arrogance.....
JosephHolmes108 9 months ago
@DIGITALSCREAMS Really? Many have Died for Jesus. As a Christian you must live your life for the one and only God. This doesn't prove God but it does say that by NO means can you call us lazy.
pntblnguitarists 8 months ago
@pntblnguitarists Many have dies for communism. Does that make communisms right ? Many have died for Nazism. Does that make Nazism right ? Many have died for a plethora of ideologies.
tallliza 8 months ago
@tallliza Re-read my message.. the FULL thing!
pntblnguitarists 8 months ago
@tallliza
"communisms"? Really? How do you know what is right and what is wrong?
ASeventhSign 7 months ago
@ASeventhSign Do YOU know right from wrong / Prove it !!
tallliza 7 months ago
@tallliza
Did you not listen to Dr. Craig speak precisely on objective morality? Do you understand the term objective morality? Surely you must be in the middle of the presentation.
We'll wait with baited breath while you actually watch the videos and then present your competing refutation.
ASeventhSign 7 months ago
@DIGITALSCREAMS
Classic example of intellectual laziness. This tool offers nothing but unfounded opinion. No original thought. His only means of communication is a poor attempt at insulting intelligence, while illustrating his own inability to spell correctly.
ASeventhSign 7 months ago
@Ginganz13 You really need to read the Bible entirely before you start taking things out of context!
kdcox1205 10 months ago
@kdcox1205 - Which bible? and which quotes or passages exhorting rape, murder, incest, torture and genocide are changed by not reading to the whole book?
Indeed if you read the whole thing it fundamentally contradicts itself. For instance, the disciples wildly different takes on something as important as the ressurection is laughable.
ginganz13 10 months ago
Well why don't you explain what this god is and how its complex mind doesn't require a creator itself you don't get to just assert beings with out explaining there purpose if god exists then it too requires a purpose. Atheists don't have to explain anything we have no knowledge of thats why we study science instead of making assertions to explain mystery thats something you theists don't understand you have to take life on a gradient level not jump to stupid ideas thats not how we learn.
wachnathan 11 months ago
@wachnathan
Of course atheists don't have to explain. Most, such as yourself are intellectually vapid at best, I submit your spelling and grammar as evidence exhibit A. I submit your jejune labeling of your intellectual superior as "stupid" as exhibit B.
Do enlighten us my atheist friend, what "science" do you study?
ASeventhSign 7 months ago
@ASeventhSign Well ya we don't have to explain anything we are refuting claims that are made we don't replace them with bullshit assertions we accept the lack of knowledge we have, get over it anyone who makes a claim has the burden of proof its only fair when your trying to convert everyone to your views, William Craig likes to assert this god to match up with the universe and appeal to our lack of understand of how it works but he can't get past the Barrier of proving its actual definition.
wachnathan 7 months ago
@wachnathan
A coherent refutation is constructed with logic and evidence. Dr. Craig has presented his. The atheists on this discussion have offered nothing but insults and circuitous versions of "nuh uh!" Perhaps with your great studies of science you could enlighten us with your refutations of Dr. Craig's considerations?
ASeventhSign 7 months ago
@ASeventhSign Look at his aguments they only point out mystery but never can explain anything he still can't connect the dots to a prime being because he has no access to this thing its behind the curtain which still leaves it open to anything sorry you don't agree with that but its true you can assert anything you want behind his arguments aliens, we could all be in a giant test tube he can't assert a god because we made up the definintion but have no reality of it or actual evidence of gods.
wachnathan 7 months ago
@wachnathan
"Look at his aguments they only point out mystery but never can explain anything..."
Which argument? Surly you comprehend the fundamental meaning of logic. Dr. Craig walks through five major points in this discussion. He illustrates the logic and the assumptions. He does so almost painfully slow.
You've repeatedly voiced your assumptions. I'm interested in any reasoning upon which you base your assumptions.
ASeventhSign 7 months ago
@ASeventhSign Its very simple with me your making it complicated for no reason i invite you to listen to Dr. Craigs arguments and find out how he is connecting the dots to a god, The thing is we can assume god to be anything we want because we have no reality on this concept we made it up anyways but Dr. Craig needs to defend the christian god and needs to stick with those traits of the bible and not a deistic one because then he isn't defending the christian faith anymore.
wachnathan 7 months ago
@wachnathan
Of course it's very simple with you! You're constrained by neither logic nor reason! You're driven by your emotion, you lash out and insult concepts outside of your ken.
ASeventhSign 7 months ago
@ASeventhSign And you are the authority on such things why because your a christian? give me a break I have no emotion on things i don't believe in and incorrect am driven by logic and reason i oparate my senses in this reality and not go beyond my barrier of understanding like a scientist would and should. You can defend this idea (god) if you wish but at least admit you have no evidence or definition for such a thing with out the object or essence of the this being you "can't" say it exists.
wachnathan 7 months ago
@wachnathan
I never claimed to be an authority. I simply illustrated that you're incapable of presenting a single reasoned refutation for any of the points made by Dr. Craig. You claim logic and reason yet present neither. The presentation is Dr. Craig's not mine. Although I do agree with him, I can take no credit. The video indeed presents evidence. Present your refutation or quote another author's objections. But don't lie and claim no evidence exists.
ASeventhSign 7 months ago
@ASeventhSign I just said it doesn't because it only points to mystery not directly to a god he didn't connect the dots becaue you can't its behind a curtain where our knowledge can't reach you haven't listened to his arguments very well, Just because Dr. Craig showed us that there is unexplained forces out there doesn't mean you jump in and say it was a god, mystery doesn't explain another mystery that doesn't complete our knowledge on the subject it makes it more confussing.
wachnathan 7 months ago
@ASeventhSign The most unrational unlogical thing to do is to assume or jump to conclusions before the evidence is in and thats not how we learn, no matter what our science discovers your always going to throw your god behind it hows that logical? I think no matter what i say your always going to throw a god concept into the mess so its really usless to even rationalize or debate with you at least am free to think with new ideas and concepts you can't your views are under the caption of christ.
wachnathan 7 months ago
@ASeventhSign Here is some of my evidence to refute your claim for example the fail of prayer the purposless randomness effects of the universe points to none intelligence the wastfulness of the all the mass, energy and space in the universe points to none intelligent design, The very idea that a mind which can only oparate with information could exist before information itself was created you can't have a computer with out a programer so where did this god get its first thought out of nothing?
wachnathan 7 months ago
@wachnathan
Again, perhaps you're confused, the arguments presented in this video are Dr. William Craig's and not mine. Although I agree with his presentation, this distinction must be made.
"Fail of prayer"? Although this would make a great name for a metal band, as it stands it is hardly a reason or argument. Please elaborate on this and cite your sources.
It is clear you've yet to watch the videos. Please view and pay special attention to his second point.
ASeventhSign 7 months ago
@ASeventhSign Cite my sources? Read your dam bible its clear in its words you ask and you shale receive am not going to get into this am not the only ex-christian that has proven the big flops of prayer even you have to admit it doesn't always delivery come on now be honest here? Prayer is rolling the dice i don't care what you say. Dr. Craig is paid to say what ever that is most convincing to the layman with views that appeal to the unknown thats it i have gone over this in my studies.
wachnathan 7 months ago
@wachnathan
Are you seriously trying claim that the Bible teaches this "fail of prayer" claim you're making?
Do you even know what prayer is?
"I don't care what you say..." This is why you will remain lost in a world without logic and reason.
Why do you insist on making derogatory comments on subjects you clearly lack even fundamental knowledge?
When challenged to use your brain, you respond with insults and bury your head in the sand.
You're an intellectual coward.
ASeventhSign 7 months ago
@ASeventhSign How many children have had a choice to believe what they choose? how may have been taught to believe the bible was true before they could even read? your brought up to this dogmatic thinking so in fairness i forgive you for your insults, But anyways you are good at one thing and thats asserting not proving and thats the very problem with theism altogether. We have in my atheist meetings already have destroyed Dr. Craigs arguments we aren't buying into assertions only evidence.
wachnathan 7 months ago
@wachnathan
"We have in my atheist meetings already have destroyed Dr. Craigs arguments we aren't buying into assertions only evidence"
Please share with us your destruction of his arguments!
ASeventhSign 7 months ago
@ASeventhSign You're an intellectual coward.. And you are are such a civilized ,christian debator !!! You don`t even know your gospels, .. Blessed are the arrogant and the self-righteous, for they shall inherit the earth...
tallliza 7 months ago
@ASeventhSign All the different views of theism out there only reflexs your lack of knowledge of what you all really believe because its an idea not a reality your trying to make a imaginative idea come to life by asserting it as the producer or first cause in which you have no way in hell of proven it. Your views are stuck in the bible and if you venture away from that like Craigs does you can't call yourself a christian or theist period. Off the pathway just a little bit i know
wachnathan 7 months ago
@wachnathan
You refuse to watch the very video you're commenting on. You surrender all credibility when questioning one's intelligence. Your lack of critical thinking skills is staggering. Perhaps you'd like to try again?
Let's recap. Your reasoned refutations of Dr. Craig's presentation are:
a) Prayers fail
b) There appears to be random effects in the universe Do you have any other gems of rational thought to share with us?
ASeventhSign 7 months ago
@ASeventhSign I lack critical thinking? Your views come from the bible so i don't think i need to go there really lol no insults please keep it real here will ya.
wachnathan 7 months ago
@wachnathan
No, it appears that you lack critical thinking.
Did I get the gist of your objections to Dr. Craig's presentation? Do you have anything else?
ASeventhSign 7 months ago
@ASeventhSign Saying it doesn't make it true in my book please am tired of the assertions here my god give me some evidence for once will ya? One more 'assertion" out of you and we are done here?
wachnathan 7 months ago
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@wachnathan
Did I get the gist of your objections to Dr. Craig's presentation? Do you have anything else?
ASeventhSign 7 months ago
@ASeventhSign You don't like invalidations i can understand that but you must understand we aren't primitive middle eastern sand people anymore you need more beef for your arguments if we are going to assume its true, Faith is dead and has no place in modern aspects of life we can know things if we try we don't need to just gamble out of fear of the unknown. I have lived on both sides of the fence you haven't so who are you to challenge my views when you haven't left the yard?
wachnathan 7 months ago
@wachnathan
Which of the points presented by Dr. Craig need more 'beef'? There are five main examples. Pick your favorite, any one, and tell us which of his supporting arguments needs 'beef'.
ASeventhSign 7 months ago
@ASeventhSign Its a fair question indeed but i can't get into this on youtube as much as i would like to but i can't spend all my time on these subjects am not the expert its just a hobbie of mine to challenge belief but i will say i don't think your stupid and infact you could have a higher IQ then me i don't know and if i said that am mistaken and sorry, We disagree yes but that doesn't make us enemies but i have to give up on this its been fun and fraustrating but a learning experince for me.
wachnathan 7 months ago
@ASeventhSign Something cannot come from nothing" - The Atheist Experience #675 look at this video to really understand my view on this subject.
wachnathan 7 months ago
@wachnathan
After viewing your recommended video, I might suggest agnosticism as a more appropriate definition.
It seems we agree that something cannot come from nothing.
It seems we agree the universe had a beginning.
It seems we agree that a creation must have a creation agent.
It seems we agree that creation agent must transcend time, space and matter.
At this point you believe an unknown agent or process is responsible.
Based on corroborating data, I believe this agent is God.
ASeventhSign 7 months ago
@ASeventhSign It seems we agree that something cannot come from nothing. Only in the bible does something come from nothing. THIS universe had a beginning.. If you believe in biblical creation, of course, it must have a creator. But there was NO biblical creation. "Transcending time and space" is theological bullshit. If you accept this dogma, you can prove anything, As soon as there is something ,there is time and space. Only theology has a way around this.
tallliza 7 months ago
@wachnathan Man, for your own sanity ,stop trying to get the upper hand against these' theologians". Their theological arguments(word-smithing) will ultimately come down to dogma or miracles, for which , of course, they cannot provide evidence. The source of christian theology,Europe, has allready been overrun by reason. Western Europe is virtually pagan, Guys like Craig,and our friend Seventhsign, are a dying breed. They are fighting rear-guard skirmishes. We just have to wait them out.
tallliza 7 months ago
@tallliza Your right!
wachnathan 7 months ago
@tallliza Talk about weak propaganda...
DiatonicSoul 3 weeks ago
@ASeventhSign Why don`t you begin by proving credibility of the bible, the base of your theology, your book of objective morality, ? After all if there is a god, as you assert, his word must be easy to authenticate.
tallliza 7 months ago
@ASeventhSign "Fail of prayer"? Although this would make a great name for a metal band, as it stands it is hardly a reason or argument. Please elaborate on this and cite your sources... Look it up man. Studies have been done. Prayers are absolutely ineffective in earthly matters.
tallliza 7 months ago
@tallliza Firstly the bible needs no defense. If you took some time to read it you would realise that it is self authenticating, meaning that it needs outside assistance to prove its creadibility. However if you want one, have a look at the new testament. When looking at a historical document you take into consideration the number of ancient copies you have and the period of time since the origonal. In both of these cases the new testament has far more evidence than any other historical document
samsonsjawbone 7 months ago
@samsonsjawbone If you took the time to read the bible, like any other book with your brain(not your heart) wou would realise that the bible defeats itself. Just one exemple : The god of the O.T. is totally incompatible with the god of the New-Testament. The number of ancient copies in NO WAY prove the authenticity of the writings. The number of copies of harry Potter books don``t prove anyhting. You have zero writings of eyewitnesses. There are a thousand reasons why the bible cannot be true.
tallliza 7 months ago
@tallliza The God of the Old testament is not at odds with the new. If you had any vague understanding of the bible you would realise that. Secondly the whole of the new testament was written in the life time of eyewitnesses, some books only several years after the the death and resirection of Jesus Christ. There were thousands of eyewitnesses who saw what Jesus did and were able to read the accounts, later written, which we have as the gospels today.
samsonsjawbone 7 months ago
@samsonsjawbone You have lots of fantasy. There is not a single piece of writing by eyewitnesses. The earliest shred of gospels date from about AD 70. Please study ,my friend, and don`t make yourself ridiculous. The average lifespan in biblical times was no more than 40 years. That means that 10 years after Jesus(supposed ) resurrection the apostles were mostly dead. The writings you have is hearsay from hearsay.
tallliza 7 months ago
@tallliza You have been misinformed. The new testiment was written in the lifetime of eyewitnesses. I pray that God will open your eyes.
samsonsjawbone 7 months ago
@samsonsjawbone You have been brainwashed. I tell you again(check it out) the earliest shred of gospel dates from decades after christ. There is not a single wirting done by an eyewitness.
tallliza 7 months ago
@tallliza A Generation after his life actually by people who physically knew him, were related to him and who had also been touched by him. I dont know where you get your information from but its bullshit.
Far as history goes it doesnt get better than the Bible. 39,000 Manuscripts, For the works of Plato there is like 10 but Universities and academic places do not have a hard time believing any of his works or his existence. Nothing matches the Bibles weight in accuracy for history and truth.
SHAOLINSINZ 7 months ago
@ASeventhSign Humans got there information from progress or a process of evolution, information existed before us so we can explain our intelligents but we didn't get it from nothing like your god did, If you can actually give logical rational reasons for my questions then we can come to some conclusions about a universal house keeper. One more thing i can only learn what our science shows us and thats it thats all we as limited beings can learn but we must never go and assume beyond our reach.
wachnathan 7 months ago
@ASeventhSign To attack the bible is to crush the faundation of theism which is where your god was asserted into reality in the first place and if Dr. Craig would just stick with those concepts of god in the bible he has lost the debate already but he ventures outside of it and makes up a deistic version of god instead by assuming its attributes to match up with the affects of the universe basically putting it behind the curtain he isn't really defending a christian god because he can't.
wachnathan 7 months ago
@wachnathan
To attack the Bible sans fact, reason or logic is to illustrate fundamental ignorance these areas of thought.
If you're simply convinced of your world-view without fact, reason or logic that is certainly your God given right!
Perhaps in the future tho, you should refrain from insulting the intelligence of one willing to present.
ASeventhSign 7 months ago
@ASeventhSign You lack understanding of my views i am refutting claims of others i don't replace it because am not claiming anything can you get this concept? Yes the bible has good stuff in it am not saying it doesn't but the problem is that a lot if is mythical and confussing you can't have fact and myth mixed together it skrews up our views of reality. I only accept things that are realistic that we can access not acknowledge things that can't be proven or disprove such as god.
wachnathan 7 months ago
@wachnathan
I do lack understanding of your views.
Many subjects are confusing. Why would you dismiss God and the evidence presented by Dr. Craig and describe those who comprehend as "stupid" when it is you that lack both Biblical understanding and any logical arguments against those presented?
ASeventhSign 7 months ago
@ASeventhSign I don't dismiss his arguments there very clever but there also not evidence of a god but evidence of our lack of understanding of how the universe work,s besides i just told you that we can't know what a god is because we have no reality on one ive never been in contact with one to even know what a god is all i can do is mirror myself as one but thats not evidence. I am open to evidence if its actually evidence i can't acknowledge a god but only hold it as a possiblity.
wachnathan 7 months ago
@wachnathan
I think it is safe to assume that you are not going to refute any of his arguments with logic, classical or otherwise.
If you hold God as a possibility, why do you describe people who believe in God as "stupid"?
ASeventhSign 7 months ago
@ASeventhSign The only thing i think is stupid and unrational is a religion based on very poor evidence in fact none convincing to me what so ever. Once again the evidence is already refuted because there isn't any to begin with get that through your head comrade am a neutral person here am not attacking you am saying your so called evidence is garbage because it doesn't actually prove there is a god out it only proves the universe is oparating some way or some how that we dont understand.
wachnathan 7 months ago
@ASeventhSign Just because the universe is oparating in a random way almost like a robot doesn't mean there is a god, why is that so hard to get through your heads why is that so offensive? Thats what bugs me the most about religous people there so narrow minded about other possiblities to the point were you will never learn anything new because you only see what you wanna see and nothing more, I think your religion has failed its time to move on to others and refute them now tell am convinced.
wachnathan 7 months ago
You see you can't define something you can't access or test and not everyone agrees with what this god really is so you can't say god exists you just can't all theism has is the agreement that it exists thats it. I don't understand why theists get so mad at people that disagree sorry but its our right to disagree not all of us are convinced by theistic claims you have to accept it thats why theism will fail to convert the world there not enough proof.
wachnathan 7 months ago
@wachnathan
"You see you can't define something you can't access or test..."
You might want to rethink this one there sport.
You're not simply disagreeing with theists. You lack the intellectual muscle to effectively present your conflicted opinions. You resort to labeling us as "stupid". I find amusement in your folly. So, again I ask with great interest, perhaps with your great studies of "science" you could enlighten us with your refutations of Dr. Craig's considerations?
ASeventhSign 7 months ago
@ASeventhSign Hey man. Did you get your punctuation right!! You must be proud, knowing the grammar and spelling of what is, most probably, your mothertongue. Thunderous applause !!
tallliza 7 months ago
@tallliza
Hush, hush. Do you hear that? It's the faint whistle of talliza's train of thought trailing off into the distance.
Have you reconsidered your previous claims? Perhaps a restful sleep has blessed you with some clarity with which you could define your position on the subject matter. Please share with us!
ASeventhSign 7 months ago