Mormonism's Impossible Gospel - Getting Them Lost

[Bloodrip]

a fallen people and will not be able to have the Spirit with us every second of every minute of every hour of every day. He has the Sacrament there because He knows a lot of us must repent each week and renew our efforts to sin no more.

Even if we sin again after being baptized, that does not mean our repentance at baptism was fake to begin with because we weren't perfect after. Each week we repent and renew our efforts to sin no more.

[Bloodrip]

For then, "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Nephi 25:23). Again, 1 Nephi 3:7 does not state 'when' the Lord will enable us to accomplish the thing He has commanded us to do. Nephi and his brethren failed the first couple times trying to get the Sword of Laban. Eventually they succeeded, and the Lord did not punish them for failing to get the Sword the first couple times.

Likewise, the Lord knows we are (Continue above).

[Bloodrip]

It is 'by' His grace we are perfected in Him. His grace is an enabling power that helps us become perfect in Him. When it says to deny yourself of all ungodliness, it is referring to a commitment you make to sin no more and renew each week.

You will not be perfect each week. The Lord knows this. That is why the Sacrament is there. When He asks us to deny ourselves of all ungodliness, He is asking us to make a strong commitment each week to sin no more and to put our best effort into doing so.

[certainlytruthful]

MORMONISM IS NOT A CHRISTIAN RELIGION! BE CAREFUL THAT YOU ARE NOT LEAD INTO THE DECEPTION OF THIS PROVEN FALSE RELIGION!

I read this book and highly recommend it for everyone who is looking in to this blasphemous religion that can take your soul to hell. The author grew up in the Mormon Church and it is a completely FALSE RELIGION!

Arm yourselves! Read the book: “CAN MITT ROMNEY SERVE TWO MASTERS? The Mormon Church Versus The Office Of The Presidency of the United States of America”

[CounterCultureLives]

My family and I were the victims of a group of deranged, radical JW's who targeted our home for a drive-by pamphleting!!

[trencher7]

One more for Keith who doesn't do his research very well.

Joseph Smith explained that repentance is still possible in the spirit world: "Our Savior says, that all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men wherewith they shall blaspheme; but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven, neither in this world, nor in the world to come [Matt. 12:31-32], evidently showing that there are sins which may be forgiven in the world to come."

[trencher7]

So Jesus is insufficient to save Mormons? Wow. What else does Keith think needs to be added to Jesus?

[trencher7]

Keith totally misrepresents Alma 34:32. The scripture is talking about those wicked people who purposefully are not repenting. Not normal LDS Christians (or any other Christian who has faith in Jesus.) And never have I heard of an ex-Mormon being called a "covenant breaker" or "son of perdition". What a lie.

[trencher7]

Keith should just stick with scripture.

"As often as my people repent I will forgive them their trespasses against me" (Mosiah 26:30).

[trencher7]

I have to say he has large problems with his criticisms. On repentence he tries to fill in the blanks on not "repeating" the sin. But he has no idea on the timeframe. We do need to turn away from the sin in order to repent. So repeating a sin the next day is quite different than repeating it a year later. Yet Keith here decides to use the most damning interpretation as if to say LDS believe that once you repent you can never repent again. False.

[trencher7]

And Miracle of Forgiveness is not LDS doctrine. Spencer W. Kimball even wished he wad written things differently especially regarding grace. Of course it is up to us to repent. And "all we can do" is repent and follow Jesus. He can't help but pour his own meaning into the definition. "...I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants." (Mos 2:21) Of course the commandments are not impossible to keep, we just can't keep them 100% of the time

[trencher7]

And Miracle of Forgiveness is not LDS doctrine. Spencer W. Kimball even wished he wad written things differently especially regarding grace. Of course it is up to us to repent. And "all we can do" is repent and follow Jesus. He can't help but pour his own meaning into the definition. "...I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants." (Mos 2:21) Of course the commandments are not impossible to keep, we just can't keep them 100% of the time

[trencher7]

No, LDS do not believe you have to be perfect on your own to be saved. That makes no sense. So he is attacking a straw man here. It's the same as if you were to take Jesus' "Be ye perfect" and then claim Jesus said you had to be perfect first before he would save you.  The Book of Mormon has many scriptures stating we can work all we want but are still "unprofitable servants". And "even after all we do" we are saved by grace. Taking grace out ot the equation just wont work for anyone.

[moparmonster1965]

@trencher7 That's true; Mormonism allows man to be his own savior because the sacrifice of the Mormon jesus only goes so far. The rest has to be made up with endless and pointless service to the church and temple ordinances.

[trencher7]

@moparmonster1965 The Lord Jesus asks all of us to do something. Claiming that following Jesus and what he asks of us makes us saviors of ourselves is dishonest.

[moparmonster1965]

@trencher7 Works aren't strictly regulated in the guise of a particular denomination; they are the fruit and outgrowth of faith in God Almighty.

To earn salvation by doing works instead of relying on Jesus' atonement is, indeed, autosoterism.

[trencher7]

@moparmonster1965 I agree that they should be. But clearly scripture is filled with examples of Church leaders telling believers what they need to be doing which they were failing to do. Otherwise there would be no need to talk of works or commandments. So, no we are not on autopilot just because we believe in Jesus. And of course LDS rely on the atonement of Jesus Christ for salvation. There is no other way.

[moparmonster1965]

If you believe as you claim, go ahead and stop doing everything except going to church for a few months and we'll see how long before the home teachers want to know why. That, of course, is the reason that there's no such thing as a Sunday Mormon.

[moparmonster1965]

@trencher7 And that's where the theft of Christian terminology by the LDS comes into the equation. Christians often get confused by what the missionaries say because we understand things very differently. Again, works are not strictly regulated in an endless checklist by any particular faith. Works are what we do because of our faith in God, not things we're essentially trying to bribe Him with.

[trencher7]

@moparmonster1965 Of course you can't bribe God with works. God just tells us we need to have them with our faith because faith being alone will not save us. Even Paul said it's better to have Charity than faith.

[moparmonster1965]

@trencher7 Okay, in that case, go ahead and do nothing for, with, or in regards to the church from now on and see how well that goes over.

And in reality, it's grace that saves, not mere faith. God's grace is a gift which we're free to accept. What you say is almost correct, but not what Mormonism practices.

[trencher7]

@moparmonster1965 Ultimately it is Grace that saves us depending on how you want to view it since if you subtract Grace from the equation we are all doomed. So yes we can say it's by grace that we are saved. So how do we accept the free gift? Any requirements?

[moparmonster1965]

When Smith wrote the BOM, he was basically a Protestant, but as time went on, his opinion of God changed, which is the reason we have such a disparity between what we find in the BOM and what we find in D&C. He added legalism and endless works, moving farther from the starting point of Christianity. Gospel Principles outlines over 17 different things required by the Mormon god to possibly attain exaltation, so how is that an easy yoke and a light burden (Matt 11:30)?

[moparmonster1965]

@trencher7 Nope, God welcomes us sinners to Him, warts and flaws and all. He doesn't care what we look like, how much money we have, how we dress, or what we drive.

We simply accept Christ into our hearts, get baptised in His name, and attempt to live by the examples he gave. He even dumbed them down for us: love your neighbor as you love yourself and love the Lord thy God with all your heart. The works part follows later, and aren't regulated by any standard of any denomination.

[trencher7]

@moparmonster1965 Awesome. Then I will see you in heaven.

[moparmonster1965]

@trencher7 Not quite because we both know that's not what Mormonism practices, but you're welcome to join me at any time.

[trencher7]

@moparmonster1965 Ha. I knew the Evangelical small print check list would eventually come out. It always does!

[moparmonster1965]

@trencher7 But I'm not an evangelical, just a garden-variety Bible based-Christian. We don't need all the legalism that Mormonism or Catholicism adds to the gospel. Just bring yourself and your repentance to Christ.

[trencher7]

@moparmonster1965 I have done that.  Thanks!

[moparmonster1965]

@trencher7 I hope so. God can't be fooled the way the LDS leadership fools its members. Nothing done in the name of a false christ will count.

[trencher7]

@moparmonster1965 Wow, now whose getting all legalistic on us now! A few wrong thoughts and God will cast you into eternal hellfire for having a "false Christ". I liked the earlier version of your soteriology. It was so simple. Now all the fine print is coming out (as it usually does with anti-Mormons).

[moparmonster1965]

Of course you liked the earlier version of what I said before; it still allowed you to pound the square peg of Mormonism into the round hole of Christianity. The reality of Jesus' atonement and gift of salvation gives no ground to teachings not of Him. But it is still simple, much more so than Mormonism. If you call the condemning of Joseph Smith to be 'fine print,' consult God (Matt 24:11, 24)

[trencher7]

@moparmonster1965 I was just pointing out how you claimed it was so simple, yet moved the goal posts once you saw someone you didn't want to admit. You believe in salvation by correct doctrinal thoughts. AN intellectual legalism of your own making not found in scripture.

[moparmonster1965]

@trencher7 So me taking false prophets out of the equation is "moving the goal posts?" I thought it would be self-explanatory that teachings of mere arrogant, sinful man aren't of God.

I would like all to be saved, you and all other Mormons, too.

And there's a lot of examples of false prophets throughout the Bible. I can name the three types if you'd like.

[trencher7]

@moparmonster1965 No. I am pointing out your original formula for salvation changed. Bait and switch. I still don't see why you claim you are saved and I am not. I do and follow every teaching in the Bible from the words of Jesus Christ and accept his sacrifice for my sins and have faith in his atonement. You want to add to that?

[moparmonster1965]

@trencher7 Not a bait and switch, silly. You think you can get to Heaven by following Joseph Smith, and that goes without saying, which is the reason I clarified it.

If you go through the Biblical Jesus, you're in good shape. If you, as a Mormon, follow Joseph Smith's Mormon jesus, you're not so well off.

And that's what you need to realize is that the jesus of Mormonism isn't the Jesus of the Bible and Christianity.

[trencher7]

@moparmo So far you aren't doing a good job of explaining yourself. Once again what am I doing that I need to do differently in order to be saved? Once again you infer that if someone has thoughts that differ from your interpretation of Jesus (by so creating another Christ) they will be damned forever. Not so. You use words like "follow" and "go through" without giving any examples. They are meaningless. When one is doing everything Christ asks of us in the Bible where is your problem?

[moparmonster1965]

You're not "doing everything Christ asks of us in the Bible" when you accept Joseph Smith, a 'prophet' with a perfect 0% accuracy as being of God. You do what do in order to become a god, something not based in the Bible or even the BOM. The list of LDS requirements for exaltation is impossible to follow so you're putting roadblocks up for yourself, based on the teachings of dishonest men who didn't understand God.

[trencher7]

@moparmonster1965 Now you are judging hearts which you cannot do. How do you know someone's motivation? As Christians we will share GOd's throne and be "partakers of the divine nature". Call it whatever you want. It's not impossible at all. So we are damned for trying too hard to follow Christ teachings? Why don't you cut to the chase and just spell out what you believe someone needs to do in order to be saved?

[moparmonster1965]

Yes, those saved will rule with God, but not as gods because there's no such thing as exaltation in reference to attaining godhood.

I already laid it out as plainly as I can. If you don't get it, the problem isn't on my end.

[trencher7]

@moparmonster1965 If you are uncomfortable with the doctrine of deification and what early Christians believed about faithful Christians becoming "gods" that is not my problem. It started way before Joseph Smith was born. It is nothing more or less than what the Bible says about us inheriting all that he has. But doctrine of the afterlife and what I might think one day over the next has no bearing on salvation.

[moparmonster1965]

@trencher7 I'm uncomfortable with reassigning definitions to Christian terminology, but go ahead and give me citations anyway and I'll address each point as well as I can.

The motivation of the Mormon is far different from that of the Christian and it's intimately intertwined with the concept of salvation. Christians want to avoid Hell and Mormons want to become gods like God. Those are very different, aren't they?

[trencher7]

@moparmonster1965 Instead of trying to judge why someone is trying to keep the commandments Jesus instructed us to why not get back to your formula for salvation? Why not cut to the heart of the matter? What does Jesus ask us to do to be saved? Anyone can make the accusation that people are following Jesus just for selfish reasons to gain rewards in heaven, but that would be unfair. We follow and obey to show our love for Jesus Christ. John 14:21,23

[moparmonster1965]

Your church also puts conditions on the Bible; since it's canonized the incorrect version and hasn't even obtained the full version of the JST, you don't even know if what you're quoting is correct or not. Therefore, if I give you a Bible-based answer, you can't really have any faith in it at all.

[moparmonster1965]

What you're trying to do is get me to give you another broad formula for salvation so you can put yourself into the equation as if we can achieve salvation from different directions. That's not even possible according to the BOM because all churches in Joseph Smith's day, churches that haven't changed from then to now, are all founded by Satan and are an abomination before God. You're trying to work a double-standard and it's not flying too far.

[trencher7]

@moparmonster1965 So you don't even know how to be saved. How many times do I have to ask you this?? Why are you so afraid? You would think someone who claims to be a Christian would want to share the good news of Christ and how to be saved. All you can do is try and attack another Christian denomination you disagree with. Whenever you are willing to stick your neck out let me know. Otherwise it's a waste of time hearing your constant misstatements about the LDS beliefs.

[moparmonster1965]

I've made no mistakes about LDS doctrine; I can support each and every conclusion using the standards of Orson Pratt and with Mormon texts. Feel free to ask for any points of clarification you might need.

[moparmonster1965]

I've laid out the reasons that Mormonism is wrong for years, not 'attacked a denomination I disagreed with' because Mormons aren't Christians. Smithians, perhaps, but not Christians because you misunderstand, either by blindly accepting lies the church feeds you or through willful and deliberate misinterpretation because you don't like what the Bible says.

[moparmonster1965]

@trencher7 We've already covered this five days ago so don't try to pretend that you're the one being direct and I'm playing coy. You're simply not getting the answer you want and that's why you're not happy. Badgering me won't make Mormonism any more Christian, I'm sorry to say.

[trencher7]

@moparmonster1965 Mormonism is already Christian. I don't expect an anti-Mormon or Fundamentalist Evangelical bigot to claim otherwise. As if it matters. And I can see why you want to get on another subject. You know already I fell in your definition and now you want to backpedal. I strive to do everything Christ asked of us in the NT. Do you? Just look at any dictionary. LDS fall within “Christianity”.

[moparmonster1965]

@trencher7 So if I say that I'm the queen of England, it can only be true. That's the standard that Mormonism uses because without the false prophet Joseph Smith, you'd be a lot closer to Biblical Christianity.

You can pretend that the definition applies to you, but again, Mormon goals and understanding of Christian terminology are very different.

It must be important because you keep trying to shoehorn Mormonism into the Biblical definition of salvation.

[trencher7]

@moparmonster1965 So LDS fit clearly with the dictionary definition of Christian and your best response is to ask why you are not considered the queen of England??? LOL!! I think we're done here. Hopefully God will somefay lift your blinders. God bless you and the best of luck.

[moparmonster1965]

So yes, I suppose we're done because the larger point here is that the Mormon jesus isn't the Biblical Jesus, which leads you to misunderstand and misinterpret salvation, and thus the reason you think that you can be saved by the simply guidelines already laid out. Or perhaps it's as simple as lying if you actually know better.

[moparmonster1965]

But once again, becoming a god like God isn't salvation, it's exaltation, a concept not found anywhere in the BOM or the Bible, not that you're interested in addressing the concept. That said, Gospel Principles makes it very clear that there are 17 different points required to attain exaltation, a standard that almost no one can uphold.

[moparmonster1965]

@trencher7 Catholicism, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Seventh Day Adventists also fit that very broad and generic dictionary definition of Mormonism. Do you think all of them are right in the eyes of God? Not according to Joseph Smith-History (1:18-19) they're not. They are, according to the Mormon god, an abomination before him, aren't they?

[trencher7]

@moparmonster1965 So let's get back to the subject of this video. It's easy to take a few scriptures and make the gospel look "impossible".  "Be ye therefore perfect"? Impossible? Jesus tells the woman to "go and sin no more". Impossible!!!

[moparmonster1965]

@trencher7 Impossible, in this context, means that it's unachieveable because it's neither easy nor light, as Jesus said. In fact, it's an endless series of works that are required to attain Mormon exaltation. You might as well be a Jehovah's Witness trying to be one of the 144,000 because it's almost completely out of reach.

Noah and Job were both perfect, weren't they? (Job 1:1, Gen 6:9) Did they need a savior? Were they not worthy?

[trencher7]

@moparmonster1965 So it was possible for the woman to go and sin no more?

[moparmonster1965]

@trencher7 The Bible is clear that we are to judge, but righteously (Ps 29:7, 31:9, Levit. 19:15, Deut 1:16, 1 Sam 19:4, 20:32, Is 1:17, Jer 22:16). If I were to call you a moron, a dumbass, or a potatohead, that would not be righteous, would it?

Instead, I'm doing my best to separate the sinner from the sin. Why? Because you and I are exactly the same fecal matter in the eyes of God, dirty, unworthy, and in dire need of a savior.

[moparmonster1965]

The entire thrust of modern Mormonism is to attain exaltation because we already know that most will be saved according to it, so Mormons aren't trying to avoid damnation. You're not afraid of Hell because being a bad person just gets you a lesser reward than others, no punishment is involved.

[moparmonster1965]

@trencher7 I'm told by the Bible to judge righteously and if that convicts you, I'm sorry. The gospel is offensive and I'm okay with that because Jesus told us so. I do know, however, that the heart is deceitful above all things and if Satan really is the lord of this world, he has tremendous sway over it.

[trencher7]

@moparmonster1965 LOL. Offensive? Please. You cannot judge hearts or motivations. Yet you are trying to. Try and repent.

[trencher7]

Also I invite you to listen to our General Conference on LDS dot org. You can tell me if there is anything you have issues with. Times to watch are 10am -12 Mountain time on Sunday and 2-4pm. Two sessions. Hope you see it.

[moparmonster1965]

@trencher7 I didn't have time, but if there's an on-line posting somewhere, send it to me via PM and I'll watch it when I'm able. I've watched or listened to several and they're always the same old thing: tithe, the church is true, tithe, love each other, and tithe.

[trencher7]

@moparmonster1965 Ok now I know you aren't interested in truth and your heart is hardened. I don't think tithing was mentioned once all day. I hope someday you will realize that the gospel of Jesus is about love, faith, and changing our hearts and not about getting your doctrinal thoughts aligned 100%. You are the one who sounds legalistic. As if somehow doctrine will cancel out Christ's atonement. Ridiculous.

[moparmonster1965]

Again, you want the respect and consideration that your faith does not give, and when the tables are turned, it's not so nice, is it? Jehovah's Witnesses aren't going to attain exaltation and achieve the celestial kingdom, are they? The big difference here is that the Mormon jesus isn't the Biblical Jesus and once you understand that, it'll be easier to grasp the rest.

[moparmonster1965]

I never said you were damned, because it's not my job to judge here, but if you put yourself in that position, you now can't say that you weren't warned. Why make it so hard on yourself?

[moparmonster1965]

@trencher7 It's more that you haven't done a good job of listening. Once again, you need to lose Joseph Smith in order to be saved. I said nothing about thoughts per se; accepting a false gospel from a false prophet isn't going to do you any favors. There's also a language barrier, too, because Mormonism has stolen Christian terminology and added some very non-Biblical teachings to it.

[trencher7]

@moparmonster1965 First you need to describe "gos. pel" before you can argue that someone is not following it. The more you talk, the more it appears you are turning salvation into an intellectual excercise of the mind and not one of spirituality. The gospel that LDS follow is all found in the Bible. What is your problem with it? Faith, repentance, baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost. Those are the main principles.

[moparmonster1965]

There's no baptism of the dead, no proxy marriages, no geneologies, no attining godhood, and no polygamous incest-born faux-saviors in the Bible. You follow the Bible insofar as it confirms Mormonism, which isn't much, and then discard all else, and you can't fool me into believing otherwise. You use the right terminology, absolutely, but the LDS concepts of each are very different from what is found in the Bible.

[trencher7]

@moparmonster1965 You mix truth with lies, but tell me what you think one must do to "follow" Christ enough to be saved. Are you avoiding this question for a reason? And define "follow". You keep repeating it, but never explain yourself. Is it because you already know I have done it yet have this urge to exclude others from your bogus definition of what a Christian is?

[moparmonster1965]

It's really very simple, but you want to bring all of the legalistic baggage of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and all of the other non-Biblical non-Christian things with it, which is why it's not computing for you. Anything more is not of God.

[moparmonster1965]

@trencher7 Ah, you found a typo, I gather. I'm not worried about it because if I were wrong, my friend Chesu1 would call me to the carpet, exactly the way he should. I'm preaching the Christian gospel while you're not getting it because you're wrapped up in the Mormon gospel; the two are very different, I'm afraid.

[moparmonster1965]

@trencher7 The problem is that in religious terms, legalism is the adding of things to the teachings of Jesus. It's legalism that Jesus subsequently abolished by fulfilling the law. No one said that 'a few wrong thoughts' will damn one to Hell, but following a false prophet who teaches a false gospel is good way to put yourself in harm's way.

[trencher7]

@moparmonster1965 Define "follow". And what exactly am I doing that saves you and damns me to eternal hellfire?

[moparmonster1965]

That's the beauty of simplicity! All of the laws and rituals and such were encompassed into those two things. That's the reason that God has no specific denomination or religion.

Since we see that Smith was a liar, fraud, con-man, false prophet, adulterer, and killer, he cannot be of God, and following his teachings are to follow a false gospel.

[moparmonster1965]

That established, we know that Jesus came to fulfill the law (Matt 5:17-18) and that in doing so, he simply dumbed it down for us because we proved over and over again that we had a hard of getting it right. He was asked by the Pharisee what was the most important commandment, to which He replied "love they neighbor as you love yourself" and "love the Lord thy God with all your heart." (Matt 22:36-40)

[moparmonster1965]

That established, we know that Jesus came to fulfill the law (Matt 5:17-18) and that in doing so, he simply dumbed it down for us because we proved over and over again that we had a hard of getting it right. He was asked by the Pharisee what was the most important commandment, to which He replied "love they neighbor as you love yourself" and "love the Lord thy God with all your heart." (Matt 22:36-40)

[moparmonster1965]

@trencher7 This is where we have to split Mormonism from Christianity. Mormonism accepts the Bible (on a very limited basis), BOM, D&C, and POGP as being from God. When you take away the last three, for each has its own distinct set of problems that show them to be the works of man and not God, you're left with just the Bible. We can debate the veracity of each after this.

[trencher7]

@moparmonster1965 So using scripture please show me howthe acceptance of additional books excludes anyone from being a Christian.

[moparmonster1965]

@trencher7 The canon isn't closed to other words from God, should he choose to enlighten us farther. It is closed, however, to the works of mere mortal and dishonest men like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.

At this point, we need to examine the reasons that the BOM is not of God.

[moparmonster1965]

@trencher7 You'll have to start by renouncing Joseph Smith, however. That's always a good place to begin.

[trencher7]

@moparmonster1965 And also it's a joke to say that the sacrifice of Jesus only goes "so far". I could make the same claim as your Jesus since he apparently didn't do enough to save Mormons. Didn't his sacrifice go far enough???

[moparmonster1965]

@trencher7 I didn't say it; it's a fact shown by the way Mormonism practices works, works, works for the church, and even then, there's no guarantee that a faithful Mormon is going to achieve exlatation, is there?

The real Jesus' sacrifice was enough, but Mormons don't accept the Biblical Jesus because they worship the Smithian misunderstanding of Him.

[trencher7]

@moparmonster1965 So your Jesus didn't do enough to save everyone? Why is not everyone saved then? His sacrifice didn't go far enough? Mormons just don;t accept the Fundamentalist Evangelical interpretation of Jesus (who they view through misinterpreting Paul). And not all Christians believe in OSAS which is what you are claiming with your "guarantee" accusation. Since people can fall away of course there is no guarantee. The faithful have no need to fear however.

[moparmonster1965]

Sure, people can fall away, but it raises the question as to whether they were really Christians to begin with. And you're right, the faithful need have no fear. Even Mormons can accept the free gift of salvation and it won't cost you 10% of your income.

That's a bargain.

[trencher7]

@moparmonster1965 How can you fall away from something if you weren;t there in the first place? You can't. And there's no eternal security if you claim to be a Christian and then fall away to then discover you were never Christian in the first place. And you seem to have a problem with tithing. 10% is not much and it only represents a small portion of our time. It's onlt giving back a fraction of what God gives us in the first place.

[moparmonster1965]

In regards to tithing, I have no problem with giving, but I want to give so my contribution stays local and helps those that I may actually meet and deal with. When you give to the LDS, you're giving so it can invest in whatever it chooses and you have no idea where it goes.

[moparmonster1965]

If that's the case, why would the Mormon god allow people like Ted Bundy, who had the blood of at least 12 women on his hands, join the church in order to better blend into his new home in Utah? Why didn't the Mormon god catch the fogeries that Mark Hofmann was creating that fooled Gordon B. Hinckley himself, and ultimately resulted in the deaths of two faithful Mormons?

[moparmonster1965]

@trencher7 Is it possible to lose salvation? I don't know, that's a question that men have wrestled with for years untold and I haven't studied it so I don't really know. You're presenting it, however, in the assumption that Mormonism is correct and that all else are not, which has to be noted.

[moparmonster1965]

@trencher7 I was actually referring to the Mormon jesus, who actually doesn't exist to anyone but Mormons. But you're on the right track because, no, his sacrifice doesn't go far enough. That's where the priesthood, which isn't needed, comes into play, as well as the pointless proxy baptisms and marriages ad infinitum.

[trencher7]

@moparmonster1965 There is only one Jesus and we believe in the same one in the Bible who died for our sins and was the divine son of God the Father. There was no other. Unless you believe there were two of them who said the same things in the same place at the exact same time as recorded in scripture?

[moparmonster1965]

I agree that there's only one Jesus, but what you have is Joseph Smith's distortion of Him, not the real deal, and that's what most Mormons don't understand; the Bible, God, Jesus, and salvation are seen through the lens of Joseph Smith and if he was wrong in his teachings, everything built on them is corrupt.

The Mormon jesus is sort of a copy of a copy, misunderstanding compounded by misinterpretation filtered through misconception.

[moparmonster1965]

@trencher7 Unfortunately, that's not true. It all starts with the revision of the role of the savior. Mormonism errs in its assumption that mankind is essentially good. If so, that takes the role of Jesus out of the equation immediately and reassigns him to sort of sideshow barker status as he hawks exaltation instead of salvation. Mormon salvation is basically a generic resurrection whereas exaltation is another matter entirely, similar to true salvation, but exaggerated.

[CounterCultureLives]

Hey, dude!! You're not supposed to be wearing that hat; you're supposed to place some magic rocks in it and STARE into it!!

No WONDER why you are a lost soul!! ;o)

[godswordsheal]

This is the second time I've watched this and it is still fantastic!

[gingernutpreacher]

ive got the book miracle of forgiveness were can i get that page list

[TheWhiteGeorgeBush31]

@apoe1234 thank you very much. i thought so too

[CounterCultureLives]

@TheWhiteGeorgeBush31 Well, THGB31, you've just confirmed a saying by Yogi Berra:

"Those who don't think very well shouldn't do it very often!!"

[TheWhiteGeorgeBush31]

EVERYTHING that this man says is lies! he is gay

[jomonomo1]

this is awesome....

[CatherineMengue]

He seems like wearing a wig... weird! :P

[mollymu1]

Just

[JediMormon]

Top 10 Lies Most Anti-Mormons tell: 1) Your church is lying to you. 2) We're not lying to you. 3) Mormons have a different Jesus. 4) We love Mormons, we just hate Mormonism. 5) All Mormons are going to hell. 6) The Bible confirms #5. 7) I've read all of the Book of Mormon. 8) God told me that the Book of Mormon is not true. 9) Joseph Smith is in hell. 10) The Bible confirms #9. Got a comment for a Mormon? Save space and just post the number.

[mormonanswerman]

@JediMormon Good one #LOL

[TheWhiteAndBlue]

@JediMormon mormons do have a different Jesus.... the jesus of mormonism is that you are saved through christ AFTER your perfect..... the Jesus Christ in the bible is " For it is by grace that you are saved through faith, not of yourselves, but it is the Gift of God, lest any man should boast."

Mormons believe that you have to be perfect den your grace is sufficient.... deny yourselves of ALL ungodliness: must be perfect

Christianity believes it is through Christ did that we are saved

[uhp100]

Keith does NOT! understand LDS doctrine. If the BOM tells us to be perfect we're following a lie, but what do you say about Jesus who commands us in the bible to be perfect? You may trap a few weaker LDS but those that actually know the doctrine of sin, repentance, grace, sanctification, etc, will never be swayed. Why do you think it to be so difficult to keep the commandments? Didn't He say that if we love Him will do just that? You're way of thinking condones sin.What a mockery to God that is.

[holdmydirtyhands]

Here are a couple of points to ponder.

If you are a Mormon, you clearly find it hard to keep the commandments, or, not sin. Each week when you partake of the sacrament, you are declaring to the world that you are in fact a sinner and you do at least something in the week to need to renew your baptismal covenants (or else you would still be clean, right?), in need of forgiveness. We all are, but some of us know we have received forgiveness of sins.

[uhp100]

You can't be LDS and not believe in it's doctrines. To claim membership in an organization is to at least believe it's tenets. You either WERE LDS or never were. If you were then maybe the reason you left is because you didn't understand two of it's most basic doctrines, sanctification and the sacrament. Partaking of the sacrament doesn't cleanse us from sin. We partake of the bread to remind us of the flesh of Christ, which was crucified and resurrected bringing about immortality. (continued)

[uhp100]

We drink of the cup to remind us of the blood of Christ,shed in the Garden and on the Cross bringing about the opportunity for Eternal Life.If you were LDS you know Mosiah 3:19, "..the natural man is an enemy to God.."He has given power to his children to overcome sin by receipt of the Holy Ghost.Without that power it's us against Satan. That's a tough battle to win, but thru the sanctifying power of the Holy Ghost we can overcome the desire for sin. IF we love him we will keep his commandments.

[holdmydirtyhands]

I do not disagree with you. If we love Him, we will strive to keep his commandments. However, this is impossible. We will at some point commit a sin and since our sacrifice is insufficient, Christ was made the end of sacrifices by becoming an offering once for all sin. Read Hebrews.

[09futbol]

Sorry to burst your bubble uhp100 but the sacrament is what renews our covenant we took in baptism. And thus we recieve that remission of sins.

[anonazero]

@09futbol thats fine if you believe that, that just isn't the God of the bible.

my God doesn't need to have his vows renewed, its a one time deal. once MY God gives his word its done.

[09futbol]

sure that may be right, but what about our vow to take upon the name of christ and to always remember him? That is the vow we make when we walk in the way that christ showed. And that is being baptised after faith in his atonement and honest repentance. Than we recieve that remission of our sins thus explained in acts 2 I believe. But it's not just a vow. It's a covenant, otherwise a two way promise where we do onething and the lord promises another. Acts 2:38-39

[anonazero]

i am SO glad you posted that. WE DONT MAKE THE VOW. so who does? GOD MAKES THE PROMISE! what does this mean? it means that when it says in ezekial that he will CAUSE us to walk in his statutes and when paul wrote that God is faithful to complete the work he has started... do you know what that means? it means that God changed my heart, God is my shepherd, God saved me from myself, saved me from his wrath, and continues to CAUSE me to walk in his statutes while growing in repentance.

[09futbol]

We make a promise to be obedient to his commamndments which is plastered all over the bible and the book of mormon. Obedience that is. We will fall short but if we are true to the conversion the lord will see us through. Don't sell your faith short. It's always possible now that we qualify for the lord's help.

[anonazero]

mormonism is man making a promise to God.

christianity is God making a promise to man.

man won't EVER keep the promise, thats why you have to renew it every week because you'll break it every week.'

thats why God never has to renew anything because NO man can pluck is from his hand and that includes the desperate sinner he has saved.

[09futbol]

That's just as much your opinion as much as you think my last post was mine, you know that right? The bible is full of the lord making covenants and not just promises to his folowers.  You can play the spiritual race card and cast judgement and find youself making jusdgements you know nothing about. All because of traditon and heresay.

[anonazero]

okay, lets throw my opinion out the window.

name me one person that sinned, stopped sinning, and never sinned again or even wanted to sin again.

do it.

[09futbol]

alright, I'll bear my sole to you a little. I was a life long mormon. I was born a mormon. I partied, I drank did drugs. Was way into the wholes fast life and girls and all that. but when I realized I could be better, I repented. I had godly sorrow. I talked to my ecclesiastical leader and we worked it out. I studied and prayed. And through time I just had a different feeling from that point and I reviled that behavior ever since. Thanks to the lord and his atonement. It changed my life!

[anonazero]

i understand and thats great but are you saying you don't sin anymore?

[09futbol]

That wasn't the point I was making but yes I don't have the feeling to party and all that I stated, I have had a change of heart from those things and anything is possible when we go to lord and apply the atonement in our lives. From being lazy, to things like deppression, to heavier stuff like alcohol, tobacco and immorality. We will sin but the desire and or the temptation can be rid of through christlike living:all that we can do!

[anonazero]

so you're saying you don't sin anymore?

you know the answer. i know the answer.

i only point this out because this love i have for you is the sort that will not stand idly by while you walk in comfort all the way to hell.

the devil only has 2 things to use against you. pain and pleasure. comfort is an easy thing for him to afford.

please read the new testament.

[09futbol]

No I do sin still, but the point from the beginning was that the atonement helps us reduce our rate if u will to sin. And soon enough we will not have the urge to sin. Sin will still be apparent in our life but not as frewuent our lives will christ centered. Like I said the atonement can change us from being lazy to proactive and help us achieve things that we thought we couldn't. If you doubt that looks like u don't read the nt.

[anonazero]

the bible says that the penalty for all sin is death.

do you realize that you are depending on escaping eternal suffering based on the off chance that you say you're sorry before you sin again?

all of that is based on the word of joseph smith which is directly contrary to the bible. see, i dont sin less to get good enough for heaven. i sin less because i grow in repentance because i grow in my love for christ because he MADE ME into a NEW CREATURE.

i didn't make myself into this. he did.

[09futbol]

I totally agree with you in everything that you say. I'm just going to highlight a part in my last entry. The ATONEMENT, meaning is suffering death and ressurection and I would add his teachings and example is what changes us. That's what joseph taught. Really ,if you're going to find a fault you'll find it. And even if you don't you'll keep looking. That's what the devil feeds on, if you will. Anonazero, take my word for it, if you wanna understand it u wil but if u don't u won't.

[anonazero]

WHAT WAS ATONED FOR IF YOU'RE STILL UNDER THE PENALTY OF YOUR SIN?

furthermore, if christ was not God how did he rise from the WRATH of God AFTER paying for your sin?

christianity doesn't have these problems.

[09futbol]

Search my entries and think on what I said. Especially my last one. Remember if you wanna understand it u will but if you don't u won't. If his example and keeping the commandments and being obediant changes us than what else is there to explain? and explain how we are under the penaltyof sin when we except the atonement in our lives.

[anonazero]

you are still under the penalty of your sin because the mormon bible says you must first truly repent to THEN get forgiveness. this means that if you sin again or even WANT to sin again EVER you were never forgiven to begin with because you were still a sinner.

christianity says: you just have to realize that you CANT stop sinning and ask God to save you and THEN he does the work by supernaturally changing you into a new creature that has new desires and sees the world differently.

[IExposeMormonism]

@09futbol Mormonism cures all the problems of sin with Mormon Bureaucracies. If it's blood atonement, polygamy, baptism, or every day little sin, there is a bureaucracy to mitigate. Better than Jesuits.

[09futbol]

Please explain the bureaucracy.

[IExposeMormonism]

@09futbol Bureaucracies are Integral to Mormonism. Thus the Polygamy revelation "nullifies all non Mormon Marriages and contracts". ALL marriages are nullified and are "real" only under the Mormon ceremony. This led directly to the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Baptism is the same. In Mormonism the Ethiopian Eunuch of Queen Candide in Acts 8:27 would fair well! He was black, a eunuch and was baptized on the side of the road in some water.

[09futbol]

no, the revelation on the covenant of eternal marriage still recognizes marriages outside of that. i 've seen many not in the temple. Mountain meadows was a domestic dispute among those in so. utah and those not able to use the resources in the town due to martial law thus leading to angers flaring and things being said and then the murders. U obviously don't know the details of the issues you're bringing up so please next time come correct!!!!!

[IExposeMormonism]

09f, Gosh, thanks so much, you are knowledgeable,perhaps a question:: Would that be the August 5 or Sept 15th martial law declaration? I assume you believe GA Smith who preceded the train only spoke encouragingly of this train? That would explain the kind words they had for them when they camped next to each other at corn ck and Jake said "stay at MM". Jake and GAS Bag said they seemed like nice home spun folk. But then that contradicts what everyone says GAS bag preached. Mormonism is like that

[09futbol]

you lost me at gas bag. Are you quoting the movie or something. It dosen't make alot of sense. I know your gonna come back with some sarcastic remark, like you just did so plaease be nice. And how is "mormonism like that" From all that you just said.

[IExposeMormonism]

@09futbol Well someone as knowledgeable as you should know GAS left SLC just in front of the wagon train. Birggy issued the Martial Law Dec'; on Aug 5. GAS man could have told Fanchers and so could any Mormon as Fancher rode south. But no one ever said a word to them. Not even when GAS bag and Hamblin camped next to them August 30th+/-. Now why is that? And why is there another Martial Law Dec on Sept 15? "M'ism is like that" in the sense that so much of Mormonism is contradictory, like 2 dates

[TheWhiteAndBlue]

@09futbol the passage in the book of mormon clearly says that you can only be saved AFTER all you can do..... deny yourselves of all ungodliness: must be perfect... then grace is sufficient

So can you become perfect?

Because that's what you need to get saved. You must be perfect then your saved.

Is that possible? Can you be perfect?

[aaronshaf2006]

uhp, see mrm[dot org]/church-membership on the whole claim that "To claim membership in an organization is to at least believe it's tenets"

Also, it seems clear you haven't watched Keith's video.

[holdmydirtyhands]

If you are consistently renewing your baptismal covenants, you are consistently breaking that covenant. Why renew something which hasn't been broken or expired?

[09futbol]

Hasn't been broken? I'm not going to assume what you meant so tell me please. We may not break as much as we forget it sometimes in our thoughts or behavior.Regardless we learn things that make us better because the lord works a little at a time one on top the other.

[holdmydirtyhands]

Of course we will strive to keep the commandments but we have all fallen short of the glory of God. We all have and all will and all do. However it is nothing we can do that saves us. It is by our faith that we are justified. Also, Paul declared that we should never think to live in sin just because grace abounds. I'm LDS, but I know what it means to be lost, saved and born again. However I would recommend you do a little studying.

[uhp100]

Another thing most evangelicals don't understand re: LDS doctrine is the nature of sin and repentance. It is wrong to sin with the idea that we can repent later. We don't claim to be perfect but we know that if we do our best ("after all we can do") and repent along the way when we do screw up, that His grace is THEN sufficient. Premeditated sin and repentance is not the nature of someone having clean hands and a pure heart. Grace alone or works alone are not sufficient. It requires both.

[holdmydirtyhands]

You're right again. It is absolutely wrong to believe that you can sin and later repent. What is all you can do though, really? I know I could have always gone to more meetings or attended the temple more than I do, does that leave me in danger of hellfire? You're also correct about grace and works being mutual. Saving faith leads to saving grace leads to works (fruits) of that faith. But the works do nothing for you. See Romans, Ephesians 2:8-10, Titus, etc.

[09futbol]

I think first of all "all we can do" is primarily in correspondence to the commandments. and as we keep the commandments the desire to go to the temple and attend church activities regardless of what you think about that person or what ever changes. As we live the gospel with all our might we are filled with the grace of god than and their, also when we die we recieve his grace bridging the gap of our sins and our salvation. And what you said is exactly what we mean.

[king1bogey]

How do you if you have done all you can do? Did you do all you could yesterday? Could you have prayed a little more or gave food to one more homeless person?

[09futbol]

Hmdh, who are you talking to?

[kingri1]

You dont get it uhp 100, We can never be perfect nobody ever will be. But if we are saved in the blood of Christ, we are perfect in God's eyes. We know we are sinners, but God says I dont see any sin in you. When I look at you I see only the blood of my son. Form your comments I must assuse that you are perfect? Congratulations. You are the first perfect human other than Jesus. That is truly remarkable. Glad it was so easy for you.

[uhp100]

My point was that Keith criticizes the BOM for saying we need to be perfect. The bible states the same thing but he doesn't seem to have a problem with that.And no,I am not perfect and never will be while here on the earth.HOWEVER,if you read the NT you will see that sin is condemned in the strongest sense of the word.Why condemn us for trying to avoid sin and live as clean as possible?Traditional christianity condones sin. You may say that it's not ok to sin but what are the consequences of it?

[09futbol]

I know keith was saying something about us trying to be perfect and than we are awarded his grace. Well, in my life and in the scriptures we are awarde his grace through faith from day to day life and at the end of our life. So in the bom and in the bible the grace of god is not just for the end of life and we are not just saved from that point we excercise faith in jesus christ. I think if we stop finding fault in each other and finding differences.

[anonazero]

thats because CHRIST said it after a whole bunch of other impossible tasks and ALL of that is to illustrate the fact that WE CAN'T DO IT.

while the BOM says "yeah thats true and you CAN do it".

the bible says that to say "thats why we need christ"

the BOM says that to say "you have to earn your salvation/godhood just like God did".

[anonazero]

@kingri1 i can read these comments and know exactly who is His and exactly who's father is the devil.

we are children ADOPTED by the Grace of God

Christ is the one and only Lord God of ALL that is and there are no gods before or after him for he is, was, and always will be the maker of heaven and earth.

[09futbol]

Well the bom and the bible tell us to be perfect as our father in heaven is perfect. We will achieve a sense of not sinning anymore through our covenants and daily choosing to follow jesus

[bdplist]

Jesus said to "BE" perfect

He did not say BECOME

Why do LDS try to BECOME?

AND how is your PROGRESS going for you?

[Reklaw008]

Actually, to "sin" means "to be mistaken, to err" in Greek. Though I understand his point, it is technically incorrect to say a sin is not a mistake.

[nauvoochristian]

Keith you should have kept the hat on...loved your presentation!

[unabashedlyredeemed1]

excellent presentation. only a slight "off" with the audio aaron.

[aaronshaf2006]

Is it me or is the lip-synching slightly off?

[Tavlo]

Aaron, I'm lovin' these videos. Thank you for taking the time to tape them and post them.

I hope we can see more in the future. :-)

Suggestion: maybe in the future, since not everyone has a mic in front of them, the speaker can repeat the question or comment to some degree so that we here in virtual land can get a sense of what is going on. Thanks!

Blessings,

~T