Excerpt from the Interview with Jeff Foster, Science and Nonduality Anthology DVD

[CraigVillarrubia]

In Reality you can't label that which enlightenment points to with any word. Words serve only as a symbol, but not the "thing" itself (and it's not a thing.) "Enlightenment" is a symbol to reflect the True identity of Oneness. Thank you for sharing Jeff!

[adriandecleir]

So going by his argument, he shouldnt even be allowed use the words "I am a male", or "I have brown hair", because once again he is identifying with the self. Enlightenment can be used in any subject, like if a friend knows the answer to a puzzle you can say "Enlighten me" to find out the answer. Thats how I take the meaning of the word , and in this subject, basically its used for someone who KNOWS and SEES, and not just conceptually acknowledges no self.

[adriandecleir]

to me when you are enlightened , you see the truth, i.e. the self is an illusion. His argument is that if you tell people that you are at this point then you couldnt be enlightened, because you are still identifying with the self. I dont like his argument because at the end of the day if you are truly experiencing no self then there is no problem telling people this, hence the words "I am enlightened", where the word "I" simply represents "the body that is saying these words"

[EdenConsciousness]

@litttlebittt Cool.

[EdenConsciousness]

@litttlebittt And you didn't answer my question about why you've accepted Smothermon's definition. Why accept anyone else's definition at all? Why not find out what it is on your own and use that?

[EdenConsciousness]

@litttlebittt I'm not even slightly satisfied with your answers. The only person whose experience you could possibly know is your own. Your expectations of how an enlightened person should look and act say nothing about anything other than your own expectations, your own conditioning. But even your expectations are inconsistent: the only thing a guy like Nisargadatta has over a guy like Foster is public opinion: more people know his name and agree he's enlightened. But that's a dumb way to tell.

[EdenConsciousness]

@litttlebittt I intended to put more emphasis on "does not". How could you possibly determine who DOES NOT fit that definition? For all you know Foster and countless others do.

And maybe you don't put him on a pedestal, but could you maybe give one concrete reason why you're accepting his definition of enlightenment as true and real?

[EdenConsciousness]

@litttlebittt Two questions: (1) How could you possibly determine who does and does not fit such a definition? And (2) who the fuck is Ron Smothermon and why should anyone take his word over their own personal experience?

[EdenConsciousness]

@litttlebittt Yeah, I've seen that one. Good shit. And I agree on all counts.

[EdenConsciousness]

@litttlebittt Foster actually quoted UG in one of his Youtube videos. It stands out in my memory cuz he hardly ever quotes anybody. They're similar in many ways, really. They're both ferociously uncompromising in their pointing, neither of them giving the mind anything to cling to. Foster's almost like a friendly, more westernized version of UG, only it seems like Jeff actually enjoys teaching, where it seems like UG often avoided it like the plague.

[selloutworld]

@litttlebittt Of course you realize that is just a pointing to an individual example, or pointing to someone elses pointer. I find it strange that you are so confident as to what it's about and yet include yourself when you say we are not in this natural state? How is it you understand what the book says then, unless you recognize a difference between an intellectual understanding and actually being in that state.

[selloutworld]

@litttlebittt Do you have what it takes to point to it? Who or what kind of individual has "what it takes" to "find it?" I actually find his teaching a bit dry but hey, maybe everything has its place..

[yelapaangel]

E = Love mc2

[GeorgeGogle]

good point here by Jeff.

[IpsaPaphum]

Hoping for 'individual' enlightenment is like the moon hoping to become the sun. What happens when it happens is that the moon, whose 'individual' light was the sunlight anyway, pales in proportion to the increasing strength of the sun.

[Forkfoot]

On the Dalai Lama? I never really think about him, to be honest, unless I'm at a bookstore and see his latest bestseller or something. Doesn't he not even claim to be awake?

[EspressoPictures]

fun starts when you know you don't know what you are

[eaglerock999]

Good explaination,there's no me to be enlightened,that is just the ego trying to get something.

As the ego is an illusion created by the mind,how can an illusion get anything?

I like the Ocean and wave illustration,the wave feels its seperate from the Ocean,but in reality it is the Ocean,so there is nothing to get ,the wave is already it.Its missed this realisation because its so close.

Once the wave realises it is the Ocean,the wave idea dissolves.

You are stillness now,no thoughts no wave.

[ushojedi]

Dear onlydontknow, the answer is yes you do need to know things. Some human beings have actually grown up with animals and they are, yes you guessed it just like animals. In terms of masters I was highlighting the clear distinction between someone with insight and someone without it.

[ushojedi]

Dear forkfoot, I know from my insight and experience, in the same way a father knows when a child is talking beyond his means. When you have experience you can penetrate into words better than you may think. Unfortunately people don the cloak of freedom to support their ego. It is ego now trying to decorate itself with freedom. If you become deceived by it you will fall into a far deeper ditch than you have ever been in before.

[ushojedi]

Jesus h christ this guy is really clueless, I can't believe (well.... :)) he's a published author on 'spirituality' but it has always been the case that idiots have their followers. This guy doesn't even know what the spiritual path is never mind the awakened consciousness of Buddha, or dogen, or chuang tsu, or tsongkapha, or marpa, or rumi

[onlydontknow75]

@ushojedi does one need to know about buddha dogen chuang tzu etc. in order to be awake? does one need to "know" anything at all in order to awaken?

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi

Relying on spiritual "authority figures" is one of the biggest and most common mistakes made. You have no way of knowing how clueless this guy is or isn't, or Chuang Tsu was or wasn't, or Rumi was or wasn't, etc. For all you know all those apparent people were insane, lying, or never even existed. Perhaps there are no "others" out there at all? Your own experience is the only one that can be examined.

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot I know from my insight and experience, in the same way a father knows when a child is talking beyond his means. When you have experience you can penetrate into words better than you may think. Unfortunately people don the cloak of freedom to support their ego. It is ego now trying to decorate itself with freedom. If you become deceived by it you will fall into a far deeper ditch than you have ever been in before.

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi In retrospect maybe that last thing I said was too blunt. Lemme try again: I think my main concern with your comments is that they show a preconception on this whole "enlightenment commodity" the mind's always trying to get its hands on, & that's exactly what's being attacked here in this video. This is very threatening to the ego. Is it not possible what he's saying points to the truth, though? Don't look to your preconceptions for the answer; don't consult memory or dead "insights".

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi In this moment, what are all those mental firings appearing IN? Could beliefs, memories of experiences, or other mental movements ever effect that vast space-like awareness in which they appear? Is there anyone behind them who could ever "attain" it at all?

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot Dear one, don't get lost in words, or over react against them. It's like this: our consciousness is like the sky, the sky is empty and pure. Clouds appear in the sky and obscure it. A grey sky is different from a clear sky experientially although the sky itself is untainted. Enlightenment means you experience consiousness untainted, no thoughts, no desires etc it is absurd to suggest buddha comes to a guru for a teaching but not someone in pain hence existential difference.

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi There is no difference, no separateness, between the thoughts and the awareness they appear in. If you still think that there is, I'd encourage you to see if you can find it. Is there or has there ever been any separation between our consciousness and anything else? Where is it? Where is the delineation? Suffering comes not from the existence of thought but from identification with it. Once identification ceases they tend to appear less often, but even if they didn't suffering'd end.

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi The mistake is not the appearance of a thought, the confusion is in thinking that thought or a series of thoughts is "me" or "mine". In reality it can be clearly seen if one has a look that there is no "me" at all that can be located and isolated as separate from the awareness is which the universe appears. It's all one.

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot Precious being, firstly you are relying on guru's but mainting the ego delusion of being free and doing it one self. The only way to be free of teachers would be to create your own mind and language as a child. It is a dangerous idea to have that you don't need a master because ALL ideas are supplyed by others. You are shuffling concepts around without understanding them. You misunderstood completely my comment. It is clear you don't even know what the path is.

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi There are no "others", there are no "gurus", there is no "path", and there is no one to follow it.

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot Like Mr Foster you have mistaken merely entering the path to being being enlightened. Some of the language of the olden days has been taken too literally but the path as Joseph Campbell says is thoroughly known. Here is one indicator that REALLY winds up people who think they have arrived. An enlightened one never loses awareness even through the entire sleep process, if you can't do that you aren't enlightened. simple. all masters say this. hard to take ay :)

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi There is no "Joseph Campbell", and there are no "people who think they have arrived". Can awareness ever be "lost"? Or is there this vast space in which all appearances arise and set, including thoughts like "I am enlightened", "I am unenlightened", "if you can't do so and so you aren't enlightened", "all masters say this", etc? Awareness precedes these thoughts and remains when they go, and would be there whether there was the appearance of a teaching or not.

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot Thank you so much for replying again :) Dear one you have fallen into the extreme of non-existence, and don't know how to unite the two truths. Awareness is form. Joseph Campbell exists. There is a beautiful wild man mystic who lived in the U.S. in the 50's who would answer u by throwing a rock at your head. Would u duck? If so you are a lier would b his response. If NOTHING is to b done y r u talking to me about it?

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi Ducking would happen as the organism's programmed for survival, but there would be no one doing it. The appearance we've all agreed to label "Joseph Campbell" exists to the exact same extent Forkfoot exists. If I look at my own experience rather than what I've been told, what's seen is that thoughts arise, perceptions arise, but there is no one separate "me" to be found anywhere. So there is nothing for the ME to do, as there is no such creature. Still, though, seeing happens.

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot Please if u can go back to my comment about the clouds. If u said to someone in scotland that the sky is the sky and the clouds arent the sky it wouldn't go down too well :) Experience/no experience careful how u shuffle concepts. Thoughts are not awareness however thoughts exist and they're existence has an affect. When no thoughts enter the mind it has an affect. Be careful of middle class borgeous feel good factor when death comes u will FEEL how empty clever talk is

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi I don't like the cloud/sky comparison in this case because clouds are thought to be separate from the sky. I would challenge your belief that "Thoughts are not awareness" and see if you can find any separation between the two. If you've become aware of the vast space surrounding all appearances, see if you can find any separation in it at all. You speak of "thoughts" and "mind" as though they are two separate things; one can enter the other. I see no evidence for this.

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi From what I can see, what's labeled "mind" IS thought; there is no one thing called that can be isolated and called "mind", only a pattern of emerging and dissipating thoughts.

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot Dearest forkfoot please stop nit picking words, all words are dualistic but we have to use them so please stop analysing and concentrate on existential experience. People suffer, buddhas don't that is an existential experience. Although the nature of everybodys consciousness is the same CLEARLY not everyone experiences this. I am not interested in some intellectual clap trap that a 45 year old man who is on the edge of suicide is exactly the same in all dimensions of being as buddha

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot and again your answer indicates u r just intelectual and u have never met a master or understand a masters function. They don't duck. I implore u to keep an open mind. For me it is as clear as reading a childs mind u r lost in an intellectual sea, please explore the masters they can help and guide u.

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi Right. Good luck with that whole thing.

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot deal! You can stick to being enlightened with all your thoughts, desire and illusory world that doesn't exist but u r still totally affected by and I will continue to go deeper and deeper into bliss and love and wonder and hang out with those whom no thought AT ALL appears to their consciousness who have transcended desire and whose love is beyond comprehension and quite clearly are different than depressed heroin wife beaters

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot oh yeah and in whose presence the love is so overwhelming ego disappears and the divine is revealed. You can stick to your enlightenment where it's wrong to surrender into a consciousness that realises the oneness of all (a buddha). Weird that u say it's all consciousness but YOU refuse to surrender to that manifestion of oneness. Hmmm seems that YOU r making a distinction. I will stick to surrending to bliss and emptiness.

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi You seem to have a whole, whole lot of beliefs. If that works for you, fine. I don't really have anything invested in your realization or lack thereof, because I know that you are already That. Your awakening couldn't possibly add anything to This; everything about you is beloved as it is. Enjoy your enlightened beings and going deeper and deeper and whatnot. If you ever get tired of it and want some help, I'll be available.

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot this is fun :) I have no beliefs nor no non beliefs. And I haven't experienced boredom for so long I have nearly forgotton what it tastes like. But lets get it down to simpler one question at a time stuff. On a 10 pence piece is heads different from tails or is it EXACTLY the same? Even though it is one object can we distinguish one side from the other? Is that 2 questions or really just one?

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi Hey, cool timing. If you had a dream in which a 10 pence piece appeared, would you, after waking, say "I had a dream about a 10 pence piece that said heads, and I had another dream about a 10 pence piece that said tails, and I had another dream about me, and I had another dream about a question, and I had another dream about another question," or would you just say "I had A dream"? I can't find any separation between appearances and consciousness, just like a dream. Thought can then

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi label those things after they appear, but those are just more appearances in consciousness, also not separate from it. This experience we've agreed to call "you", the coin, the thoughts: One.

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot If there are no distinctions why bother saying you had a dream? Things are different but are interconnected. Tails IS different from heads existentially. It is maya or illusion when you THINK heads is not connected to tails. A rainbow exists, even though it is illusory it is existential. Realising it is an appearance doesn't change the fact that it impacts upon us in a different way than another illusion. The world is one AND it is not one. The world is LIKE dream. It is NOT a dream.

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot The analogy of dream is merely an analogy. To distinguish a change of consciousness from thinking you exist in one way but really it is not like you thought. Deep down in our bones we avoid a punch because it is real. It doesn't change the fact we are part of one universe. If you think there is NOTHING to be done because it is all just consciousness you have fallen into the extreme of non existence. 'its all illusion blah blah' 'you're already enlightened blah blah' enlightenment

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot doesn't change the fact that you would rather not eat flies and cover yourself in sick. Therefore existentially distinctions in the oneness exist. Why on Earth r people teaching you don't need teachers. They themselves feel people need teachers thus they r teaching. People find excuses with clever logic. But life is a mystery and can't be pinned down by philosophsing about oneness. What is your reality?

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi You're sermonizing again, which I guess takes us back to our original reason for starting this dialogue. You know these things how? Because Sri Ramalama or Sashimi Roshi says so? Or is it being clearly seen here and now? What you're doing is not different from Bible-thumping. It contains the exact same amount of authority. People like the man in this video point out things that can be easily examined within your own experience. Preachers like yourself demand belief.

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi I can only speak from what's being seen here now. I won't try to teach you or educate you on my conceptual holding of reality. I can try to point it out, and either you'll see it or you won't; it makes no difference to me. I certainly wouldn't have the gall to demand you accept my thoughts and words as containing any intrinsic truth whatsoever.

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot Really you got sermonising and fluffy talk beyond real gritty experience from what I said? Really? You can be quite slippy!! I tried to get us down to simple, real questions and you went off again about oneness and things can't be distinguished like feathers and rocks. And awakening and dreaming. I have no beliefs and speak ONLY from my experience. I am talking to you. What is your reality? My last comments said: Reality is more affecting than any belief you carry about oneness.

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot Ok back to simple questions if you can? If there is no need for teachers why is Jeff teaching?

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi What I said was that one can't rely upon spiritual authority figures because there is literally no way of knowing whether or not they're full of shit. You can't say "I know HE tells the truth because of MY experience;" it would be an absurdity. But if words are said which point to something immediately visible here and now, whether or not the "teacher" is full of it becomes a moot point. Jeff points in this manner. I don't have to dogmatically accept his "enlightened" state.

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot Thank you for the suggestion :) Regarding Jeff I am reminded of the greek philosopher who taught his students to kill themselves because suicide was the true way. When asked why he himself hadn't he said because someone needs to teach this message. People always find ways to justify. Krishnamurti had a similar problem teaching that you don't need a teacher. When clearly people do need a teacher that's y they r there in the 1st place. Ok it is like this. If you read a random magazine

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot reviewing films u will have no way of knowing if it's true or not. You can believe it but that will only cause trouble as you will not know. However if you meet your best friend who excitedly tells you how great it is and that you will love it. A transference of energy will take place and because you TRUST him you almost know it will be good so you pay for the ticket. But you still dont know. True masters always say don't believe but they don't say ignore either.

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot When a child trys to deceive you it is very easy to understand beyond words that they don't know what they are talking about. Because as an adult you have a deeper understanding and have been through that stage of consciousness. From my own experience I know where Jeff is and from the point of view of also having met someone without an ego I know he is not in that state. It is like love it is only when you experience it do you know it. And when u do it is so so obvious the difference

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot between someone who has love and someone who hasn't but this cannot be explained it has to be felt. Hence the double need of a master. Life is utter mystery and a master is mysterious. Until u participate and dropp all resistances you will never know that is why lovers look crazy to thinkers. But for those in love love is all and more

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi So what's been happening throughout this conversation, I've noticed, is that you'll ask a question, and I'll answer it from what's being seen here now. While many teachers would just stop there, you instead launch into a sermon informing me that that ISN'T what's being seen here now. But frankly if your teacher or Jeff Foster or Buddha himself ever told me that what's being seen isn't what's being seen, I'd tell him to go fuck himself.

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi I won't say that to you, though, 'cause we're tight now. As soon as I see some evidence of a person who is capable of surrender, a self who is capable of going "deeper and deeper" into enlightenment, or of the existence of a master who is in any way separate from me, I'll stop thinking you're full of shit. What's being seen here now, though, is that there is no one to surrender and no one to surrender to, and that you and I and the moon and Jeff Foster are all already That.

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi As soon as some separate dude is found here who is seeking to acquire this commodity labeled enlightenment, someone who can "have love" or not, I'll become your devoted disciple and cross the pond so we can go guru-hopping together. No evidence is appearing anywhere to support that what we've come to call God, the universe, love, and me, are in any way separate at all though.

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot ha ha ha ha brilliant. Well as the zen hair shavers say if you meet bubba on the road put an axe through his 3rd eye. Please tell me to fuck off I'm not one for equating truth with polite middle class repressed victorian valued communication modes :) It's just the way I speak, with totallity. I know I don't know. But you still haven't answered my question :) Is heads different from tails? As Bono says we're one but we're not the same. Offically, scholarly, you haven't reached the

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot the view held by nagajuna, please check him out. On a more human level it is as simple as the 10,000 things affect us differently. My cock is not seperate from my balding head from one perspective but existentially I'm not putting it under the chop. From my experience when I realsed the oneoness of things I could see even clearer the distinctions between truth and illusion, or better to say that you can see others samsara or that what they are struggling against doesn't exist but is

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot affecting them deeply. A bodhisattva says you can help with this, a self realiser says you can't. BECAUSE we are not seperate we affect each other. Someone who can see others samsara can affect them. Milarepa also taught there is no path no meditation no non path etc but he also taught the a,b,c,s I'm not saying you have to follow a guru I am saying DON'T say you don't need a guru or talk about enlightenment when you don't know what it is.

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi Oh? So you know what enlightenment is?

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot essentially it is both all consciousness and not all consciousness. It is beyond all words, it is beyond the mind, it is beyond. It is a mystery and cannot be figured out. It cannot be explained or held by a view. Anytime we feel 'oh it's a mystery' we have de-mystified it. It is never endingly unfigureoutable. But it's fun talking shite to each other :) I like manuel know nothing :)

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi I really get the impression you're just regurgitating concepts rather than speaking from what's actually being seen. From your point of view, what is enlightenment?

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot Yes i feel we will have to agree to disagree. You think I'm just playing with concepts and I feel that about you. For me life is real, one's consciousness is not all of life, life is bigger than me, everything I perceive is obviously within my perceptions, but my perceptions are not all of life. I am not the centre of the universe but a tiny drop in the ocean of life. I am in real life affected differently by different things but I am equally happy to be affected differently.

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot my awakening was like waking from a dream in that how I thought life was was not it. But life is not a dream. A dream is a mind projection but life is bigger than my mind. And how we live in the world matters. Enlightenment is real. The state of enlightenment exists and hanging out with a Buddha is different from hanging out with a chav coming at you with a knife. The external world is not to be dismissed as just illusory. If everything is illusory then the statement is redundant

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot To put it as clealry as possible. In the east in days of yore THOUSANDS of disciples following the path and being with a buddha attained enlightenment. In the west people not doing anything: none. ok maybe william blake but he followed a path. Even clearer. Thousands of Buddhas disciples attained, he moved within a small area how many people in the bronx have attained? therefore IN MY EXPERIENCE externals make a difference beyond any concepts or knowledge of oneness.

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi None of this attempts to answer my question. Maybe you're still typing though.

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi Guess not. You were much more interested in the fact that I called you a bullshitter than in the three-word question which followed it.

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot It's ok I have no expectations that you will understand what I am saying. I was talking about my experience :) Let's keep it shorter? I get affected differently by different externals, do you?

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi What is enlightenment?

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot I can't answer that with words. I am pointing out toyou that your knowledge gives you the hallucination of knowing. If you go honestly into my questions into your existential experience, can drop your pride, you may (not with me obviously I know ego cannot handle being directly told it's wrong) at some point start dropping your knowledge and encounter reality head on. My way is via negation, by understanding enlightenment I have to empty u of your knowledge. so stop avoiding questions

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi Oh, so now YOU'RE an "enlightened teacher"? What happened to "and I will continue to go deeper and deeper into bliss and love and wonder and hang out with those whom no thought AT ALL appears to their consciousness" etc.?

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi You're avoiding. You can attempt to tell me what enlightenment is without actually using your superior Enlightenment Powers to make me see. It won't BE the state, but it can point to it, at least sufficiently for an unenlightened schmuck like myself to have some vague inkling as to what you're talking about.

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot Ok please humour me that this is my way eccentric way of explaining what enlightenment is by me asking you questions, please? Once more, do you get affected differently by different externals?

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi That question doesn't even make sense to me. Who is this "you" referencing? Are you asking if cold happens? If pain and pleasure happen? Then sure.

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot How can you be affected differently by something that doesn't exist?

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi Again, "you"? Who? Thoughts appear in Awareness, lit matches appear in Awareness, pain appears in Awareness, blowjobs appear in Awareness, pleasure appears in Awareness... where's the "you" to whom they are happening? Where's the "something" that's separate and independent from Awareness?

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot We may or may not get o that please don't jump ahead but answer the question, we can move on later to who is it that's aware of awareness. But please please please just answer the question. How can you be affected differently by something that doesn't exist?

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi WHO???

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot One of the traps you are in, as you have already tried to avoid answering, is extreme view. Extreme view is when you cannot even mention the word 'i' I say your being extreme, ALL the enlightened ones say you are being extreme, but as I say we will get to that, I am not avoiding, you are, we will reach that stage, but for now once again please answer the question: How can you be affected differently by something that doesn't exist?

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi Also, you don't understand what I've been talking about. You've come to the conclusion that I see "nothing exists". I see that nothing exists separate from me, separate from reality, separate from God. I don't say nothing exists. I say no self exists, but that's different.

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot How can something non existant claim it is non existant?

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi (I keep trying to post this, but it doesn't appear) It does exist. It just doesn't exist separate from Awareness.

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot Oh so the self does exist, you just said it didn't which is it?

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi Oh, missed that part. No, the self doesn't exist, and it isn't claiming it doesn't exist. The thought appears, the words follow it, but there's no evidence of anyone behind it. The self isn't claiming it doesn't exist; that's just what's happening.

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot How can you refer to something that is non existant?

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi This post is made in reference to a unicorn.

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot Something that doesn't exist doesn't exist doesn't exist it cannot ask a question. The fact that you are asking a question: Do I exist? proves your existence. In our circle of truth what u r doin is called 'mind fucking' just drivel, but in your dirty gritty reality you are affected by externals differently. Ok here's another question for u to avoid, even though u don't exist to be typing, if lose awareness, lets say your drunk, and u were last aware of yourself (which of course is

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot is non existant) - for someone who is non existant and is not part of life adolf hitler sure seemed to affect life. Funny how something that isn't part of life can affect it, damn your philosophy is so grounded- so u were drunk in a club next thing u know your awareness is back and you are at home. How did the totally unperceived and non existent taxi get u home?

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi You're "circle of truth"? You mean your religion! This whole time I've been talking to a bloody Bible-thumper, an enlightened ego! You don't know what enlightenment is; your ego wants to "get" it for itself, like a prize. You think you know where I stand; you don't even know where YOU stand. I think the Buddhist teaching of Anatta wouldn't be so frequently overlooked and forgotten had it not been buried under piles upon piles of Buddhism.

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot I love u man, you remind me of a psychological child or a politician, as soon as they feel they are wrong they avoid. The old days can still teach us something, back then seekers would change they're views when defeated cuz they're concern was the truth. Why so antagonistic towrds religion, again with an extreme view toawrds something that is non existent? And how can a non existent have a view? My circle of truth, like gurdjieff, is a group of seekers from all walks of life and

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot and masters and no masters. You are lucky u don't have a zen master as he/she would slap u for mind fucking. Then again in this day and age he/she couldn't cuz the (i can't even say person or phenonmenon cuz that's a reference point and a non existant cannot have one) lets say poor baby me egoist would get upset. Because in his actual reality he exists.

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi Oh, you are so fulla shit. How's the weather in the UK this time of year?

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot Aw the non existent is upset. Something that is non existant can't be talked about, thought about, refered to, described, it can't affect you in anyway, we can't even say it is a thing. Can we say that non existant nothing that is not there that's not in your room is good or bad? no we can't. Can we say a person is good or bad? yes we can. Therefore there is a difference thus people exist. case closed.

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi Yup, case closed, you win. Now you can go crow about your triumph to your high priest. You know why I don't respond to 90% of the stuff you type? Because I know it will only result in another truckload of regurgitations from the Gospel of the Circle of Truth. If I were into that sort of thing I'd watch a televangelist or get a subscription to Watchtower. Absolutely nothing you've said so far has been coming from a place of earnestness, honesty or understanding. Nothing.

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha I'm crying! oh I love u I really do. Shit I didn't know your cult of advaita made u psychic?!? wow. If u check, u will c that u r dogmaticaly holding onto your belief system which u told me came from Buddha. I'm asking u to be REAL and accept that LIFE affects u beyond your bullshit concepts. I'm saying YOU need guidance not anyone else. I am saying JEFF isn't enlightened. I am asking u to get off your spiritual high horses and accept life as it is

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot U r on the same track as the chinese whose belief in no soul allows them to torture animals, you're just on the happy side, but it makes u blind to what is. If you can't tell the difference between a buddha and a sly fist fighter your philosophy has made u almost demented. Mayb u failed somewhere down the path, who knows, and your bitterness blinds u. I am saying be earthy and true and accept you are a person who would duck a punch. Be real n drop this belief system u hav

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi The more I call you a bullshitter the more exclamation points, caps, and hyperbole you use. I simply MUST believe you! It CANNOT be any other way! Chill the fuck out. I think you're a fake and a phony; big deal. It's just a game. Why is it so important I believe you're some wise and holy Being? You would totally allow me to make you my master if given the chance, though, as you proved a few posts back. You'd be my messiah. You are so full of shit.

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot Thank u my dearest one, this internet world is a tremendous forum for releasing peoples internal vomit. Even on such 'enlightened' forums. People are so abusive, the anger comes out, the big words, the great ideas but whenever I question them it's always the same abuse abuse abuse anger anger. I generally call this cowardice, because when I confront people like this in real life they never behave like this. Mayb behind my back they do? According to your philosophy I don't exist so how

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot how can I be full of shit? And why are you talking to nothingness are u mad or something? If u check u r just alone in your room and all the anger and self righteousness is arising in you, all the ideas of falseness are arising in you. How is it that you know I am not enlightened? I thought u said there is no difference between being enlightened or not enlightened. Your reference that 'i' am not enlightened infers 'i' could be enlightened. If so go find an enlightened one it will help

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi Two full posts defending the possibility that you are wise and holy, or at least far more so than I am. Why do you care so much?

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot I am love

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi ;)

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot Hey, thanks for talking to me, besides making me really chuckle, I haven't engaged in that kind of nonsensical spraff for ages, and it really made me soft and quiet and realise again how truth is so so different from words, wonderful. But speaking of false gurus, and authority figures, to get a better idea of my view :) or lack of it. Someone like the Dalai Lama is the kind of master that causes a lot of trouble. People compelled by the masses and what to think. any thoughts?

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi Haha! I just realized I have one of his books on my shelf, "The Art of Happiness", by His Holiness Himself. Think I picked it up when I first got interested in this whole enlightenment thing as a kid. I guess I've come to think of him as more of a political figure than a "master" since then, but I still don't see him as having any more or less authority than any of the other homo sapiens out there besides the one typing this.

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot I think he can be a really good case. People just blindly accept he is a holy man. Especially the folks of tibet and just do what he says. When this brand of spirituality reached our shores, the 'omniscient' guru factor coupled with the christian guilt has been a disaster on many levels. We could talk a lot more on the problems it's caused. But I feel that for a lot of people I've met, when they reached the stage of having to kill the buddha, they couldn't the flavour of this can be

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi meant putting faith in someone else, what they were teaching, and something called a "future", none of which was particularly appealing even then. You see good gurus and false gurus, I see people who can either point out thing which will be immediately obvious to me right now, or who cannot.

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi Doubt, not faith, was and is my only salvation.

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot beautiful :) doubt is so beautiful, it is a tainted word I prefer to call it courage. I knew we would agree. You have transcended the process but to do so it has to be there in the first place. From nothing to nothing but the process, the heroes journey is so important. Nirvana is here now everyone is already free but to realise that one must pass through the trials. I feel it is important not to tell people not to use the raft at all. However I can only imagine what it must be like

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot living in California I guess the closest I have come to that is Glastonbury where people are so astral I'm surprised they can make breakfast. I'd rather live with the bloods in L.A. :)

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi No offense, dude, but your agreement with or approval of what I said couldn't matter less to me. I don't see my story as having had any causal effect on This whatsoever. One could tell a story in thought of a man who sought, struggled, then awoke, but those are only thoughts, and one has to introduce even MORE thoughts into the story to say one "caused" the other to happen. Just as accurate, probably more so, to say seeking and striving were symptoms rather than causes.

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot You what mate?! And there was me just thinking mayb we can have an amiable dialogue, ach well, back to the ego it is. As a final thought, clearly to me from what u have wrote, u r on the path of will and meditation (u will say who? n what path? n there is no meditation etc but that's how u label such a path) be careful, thoughtful, in diminshing the path of the heart, the sufi's r a tremendous beauty on this mysterious earth, they attain truth thru teacher to pupil transmission

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot In my experience my curtain is so beautiful, so unknowable, so mysterious, it makes me want to cry. Life is so unknowable, nobody knows the source. The mystery is existential, and fathomless in it's depth. You cannot it seems know anything about anything, this mystery makes life so utterly beautiful every moment is inconceivable. I find it inconceivable to hold onto any ideas or words or philosophy as right or wrong. But the loving heart makes one interact with all in awe.

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot blessed is the man who knows he doesn't know and I am afraid that you know.

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi Jeez, man, stop taking everything so personally. I thought you'd understand why I said that; didn't think you'd get all huffy about it. I know it might seem like it, but I'm really not trying to be a dick here.

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi I would have thought, after all your attempts to teach me, after all your claims of insight and understanding and attainment, after all your "Dearest, most beloved Forkfoot"s, I'd be able to just say what I mean without going out of my way to pad my words lest your ego get bruised. I guess not. Really not sure why you keep going on about my "philosophy", either. Something's either seen, now, or it isn't. Not sure about the purpose behind that meditation & Sufism talk either.

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot I love responding to these black squiggles of yours, I just can't stop chuckling at what u write. My ego is devastated that u don't listen to me, I was so upset I had to hug my teddy bear. It just makes me chuckle so much that in your philosophising you say there is no such thing as an ego and then you talk about ego. Why don't u talk about .... and tell me all about ...... can ..... say existence?

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi I know, it's fucking hilarious how unenlightened I am. I'd probably be laughing my ass off at every post of mine too if I were in your lofty state. Not "philosphising", you don't understand where I stand on the ego's existence, and your last sentence was unreadable.

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot I know that I cannot be in the state U n Jeff r in because I'm talking to u so obviously I can't be enlightened, or self aware or no-self aware, however u want to label that. As I say I can only go by what u write, what u r writing i call philosophising and in it u have said the ego doesn't exist. My last sentence illustrates how ridiculous it is to keep saying to me who? by showing how u cannot talk about or refer to something that doesn't exist.

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi I say the self doesn't exist. I also say I went to the store. I also say you're full of shit. Language is funny that way. There is no one thing, technically, that can be labeled 'self' or 'ego', there are only thoughts. More accurate, technically, would have been to say my failure to pad my words led to hurt thoughts and feelings arising. You call it a philosophy, I say I'm using words to the best of my ability to describe what is being clearly and presently seen.

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot Yes! back to the abuse, go on big man. A while ago u said something like u didn't answer 90% of my questions cuz u had developed an opinion on my non-existant nothingness that isn't there at all in anyway but u keep refering to it self. Lets presume, just for a lugh, that u don't know me (i don't exist anyway so how could u) and lets get back to u answering questions without squirming out of them because your pride can't take it? Why r u refering to ....... ....... as a self?

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi Christ, this could literally go on forever. I can't even remember why I got mixed up into it in the first place. Take care, you arrogant motherfucker. I truly do wish you the best. -F.F.

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot Yes u keep avoiding when u can't answer. Like the cunning politician, who is still a psychological child, he is not interested in dialogue but propelling his ego. How can I be arrogant if I don't exist? You got mixed cuz I pointed out that Jeff, is not enlightened, clearly, and is lucky if he is just entering the path. People at this stage for ex. often c the futility of questions, think that there is no point talking, that nothing can be done, they feel that non identitfication with

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot thoughts is the space that the Buddha refers to. They can become arrogant and start teaching that no path is needed. They fall into many extremes, but the're generally feeling pretty good about them selves and think this is the non attainment attainment. But it will be different when they're girlfriends cheat on them or someone comes at them with a knife suddenly they have opinions again. One day mayb u will answer the question? or b the tiniest bit real.

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi Yup, you totally had me cornered, but I bailed because you were right and I was wrong. You win. Now go fuck yourself.

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot aw poor baby, is the non existant upset, big mighty words from the mouth warrior. Just answer the question. Why r u refering to ..... . . as a self?

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi It was fun while it lasted, but it's not anymore, which makes it kind of a pointless exercise now. You really want to perpetuate it, but it's devolved into a silly game of patty cake which could go round and round in circles till we're too old and arthritic to type. Much as it may outrage you, I will never take your word over my own experience (especially after having gotten to know you better), and until you've seen what I see, you will never understand. It'd be interminable and dull.

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot How can u get to know ......./////.......better. It doesn't exist. There is one thing I understand about you you cannot answer the question. I will miss your ignorance it's very entertaining, I haven't been around people who talk about spirituality for years and years. And I know my question will gnaw at you so come back when your ready. We're not goin round in circles, u r I'm just tryin to grab your cunning collar so for the 8th time? Why r u refering to ... . . as a self

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi So in case I didn't make myself clear, the period at the end of this comment will mark the end of our dialogue here. You can always turn it into one of your famous monologues, of course. Exit Forkfoot.

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot bitterness and a dismissal of the guru/disciple relationship in toto. The opposite reflex of guilt ridden people is to respond in anger. A master, a true master doesn't do anything. However there is something mysterious that happens as in a love relationship. What is love? It cannot be answered but it is the most real thing. Also the power of myth cannot be dismissed either, the wise man affects our psyche on a primal level. The problem is people want a new daddy.

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi I live in the San Francisco Bay Area in California. Probably has the most gurus per capita outside Arunachala. I served my time on that circuit and came up unfulfilled. I've encountered that peace one senses in the physical presence of some beings like you spoke of earlier, but I never saw it as any evidence of anything. When I left them I was just as miserable as ever. I suppose I could have accepted it on faith that something would have happened in the future, but that would have

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot sooooo once again do you get affected differently by different externals?

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot the last bit is refering to jeff not you :)

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi Sure, the mind can label heads as different from tails, a cup of tea as different from a cup of poison, a road as different from a cliff, etc. Our species wouldn't have lasted very long if it couldn't. But what does a baby see when it beholds a coin? Simply an appearance. It hasn't yet been taught that heads are separate from tails, or even that the coin is in any way separate from itself. Labeling and comparing are things that MINDS do, not God. God doesn't know what a "coin" is.

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot shit, I don't want to catch you out, or anything so bare with me whilst I ramble. :) It is not simply seeing an appearance, not everything is illusion. Heads is STILL SEEN as different from tails. In fact it could even be an horrific pic that gives the kid nightmares but tails doesn't. The mind exists. You, at the mo, remind me of all the eastern gurus of old and the problems they created. That the external world doesn't exist, it is JUST consciousness and is not as important as the

[ushojedi]

@Forkfoot world i.e. any dinstinctions that come up are just dismissed as illusory. The world is not a dream. At the moment you may not feel that the world will still exist when you die because you feel you wont perceive it but it will because we can see when people die the world doesn't end. Dreams are pictorial aspects of desire or mind. A rock isn't. We can film it. This view you are talking about is called 'mind only' and needs to be passed thru. It is beautiful but there is further to go

[Forkfoot]

@ushojedi I gotta go to work, be back later. Since you're so keen on Gurus and Masters and stuff, you might wanna check out Nisargadatta Maharaj if you haven't already. He's another such "pointer", and also everyone agrees he's hot stuff in the spiritual world, which I know you'll appreciate.

[BesACB]

@ushojedi Quite intriguing to see two people slogging away at making each other aware of plain obvious it's-staring-you-in-the-eye truths, which alack are (seemingly?) contradictory.

[ushojedi]

@BesACB the two truths can't be grasped intellectually

[BesACB]

@Forkfoot Maybe the starkest philosophical reduction of your non-dualist 'stychomachy' with Ushojedi (which I enjoyed very much) is the Parmenidean paradox of being and becoming. You, being, can't become. Yet there is becoming. The becoming can't be anything else than being. So the being is a being beyond being and becoming. You are beyond being and becoming.

[Forkfoot]

@BesACB Kinda embarassing that that ridiculous conversation will always be there for people to see. Oh well. I guess you could say "there is becoming", but becoming implies something changing into something different, something other than what it is. I prefer to say that the very thing that is trying to "become" is what's awakened FROM. Something that was never there in the first place is seen (by no one) for what it is. All is lost and nothing is added.

[BesACB]

@Forkfoot 1. "always be there for people to see" Ha ha ha it's a kind of immortality! Yes, I agree, but couldn't we also say that besides 'TRYING to become', there is the simple fact of change, a changeability of everything we experience both inside and outside of what we tend to think of as ourselves, that is a sort of fundamental becoming that we seem to need to be aware of being, i.e. we can't become 'established in the self', as the vedantic phrase goes, as a form of fixing ourselves......

[BesACB]

@Forkfoot 2....becoming an immutable identity that exempts us from change. We are simply what we are, but what we are can not be pinpointed or established. We tend to think of it as 'still' and beyond change because it has the world of change as its foil.

[Forkfoot]

@BesACB Yeah, sure things could be said to bloom and to die, to come and to go, to be lost in delusion and to awaken to truth, and there's usually no harm in doing so, but they require a story to be told from a fixed point, which as you so nicely said isn't ever there. Change implies time, time would require a fixed point of reference, a separate subject, for it to pass over. Anything seeming to match this description will be seen through as an empty concept. So sure, we can play around with

[Forkfoot]

@BesACB ideas like change and changelessness, but what for? We'll only have to let go of them.