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people r paralyzed by debts, stupid patriotic youth goes to gun selling and religious wars, wars killed thousands and continue. bio warfare spreads unbelievable diseases in war countries, soon we gonna eat all modified food without a right to know about it.
game is close to an end, but it is not over!!!!!!!!. soon we gonna have ww3 if we will continue supporting system that is desperate now and unpredictable. system gonna get us like hitler did. hurry!!!!. spread zeigeist!
The Venus project´s got free-masonry written all over it.
I think the best thing humanity can work together for right now is printing honest, debt-free money through congress and dismantle the hold of the bank oligarchy by ending fractional reserve/private banking within government, thus ending western middle-class slavery, third world poverty (largely due to the interest on loans alone), making money serve us instead of ruling us.
@AlexTronic777 Money is essentially the method of access to resources. Given the Masons are (or were) rich and elitist, I simply can't follow your logic, if there is any, to your statement.
@AlexTronic777 - What would be an example of Free-Masonry, that's written all over VP? Congress is well bought and paid for, so it has no teeth to action what you suggest - never mind that congress itself is a hive of free-masonry, or secret clubs.
@AlexTronic777 - What would be an example of Free-Masonry, that's written all over VP? Congress is well bought and paid for, so it has no teeth to action what you suggest - never mind that congress itself is a hive of free-masonry, or secret clubs.
@AlexTronic777 i wish u could take my debts from me and put them deeply in your good wishing ass. and turn inside in all directions. after that u could print your money.
@AlexTronic777 i mean, print your money for yourself. so u could be free. u will print your money as much as u need. u gonna be the owner and the boss of your money. i also recommend u to choose the right heaven from a right god first.
As long as the army fights for government, nothing can be done. We can't ask the government to please eliminate money. If the people revolt, they bring martial law. It seems to me there's only one thing to do. Quit your job, don't use your car, don't buy anything. Within hours the government will have to declare bankruptcy as they cannot hand out unemployment cheques. Business will go out of business if they can't move their products. Banks will be done.
unfortuanatly i think it is the first movie that makes many people apprhensve of the venus project and the zeitgeist movement in general .I liked addendum in fact i was in the mddle of writing a book in the same vein when i first heard of addendum but i stoped(not angry he got there first im glad at least someone got it done).As stated earlier the 1st movie which was terrible and laughable i think people should be introduced to addendum 1st to be introduced to fresco and meadows
We will certainly live in this current system for a while, the movement's intent is not to make this change at an instant, but to make people aware of this new system, and have them fully understand it, to create a critical mass so to speak. The goal is to have as many as possible supporters, who also could start taking actions by themselves, to have the support of technicians, advertisers, lawyers, etc. who could help make the first city, or to promote free energy solutions for example.
Who cares if they take him seriously or not? If he's got the facts it shouldn't fucking matter. And that's what humanity can't seem to grasp. HAHAHAH!! It's sad but it's true.
Okay, I'm sorry you can't appreciate my humor. All I'm saying, though, is that in a freer society it shouldn't matter what he's wearing because we could appreciate the fact behind the issues.
Right. But unfortunetly we're still living in the monetary society... so he's only as free as his purchasing power will allow........ i don't think he can afford a bunny costume haha
most def... or maybe a nice charcoal and pin stripes... or you know... just some jeans and a nice button down... change it up a bit you know? he's wearing the exact same thing to every speech. it's like he did them all on the same day or something.
idiots abound!! why don't you wake up and smell the coffee. people like you live in denial! an example of the brainwashed people who refuse to listen to the truth.
Under the current circumstances, this transition is impossible. Society has grown accustomed to working for profit, so as soon as [hypothetically speaking of course] this new society takes hold, people will stop working, ceasing all provisions for life. People will die. A lot of them.
So it's not about questioning the flaws of the society, but more how will we get there that is of main concerns. For all societies are discovered by trial and error. We can do it again.
Hi. I think I get what ur saying, but, if u think about it, the statement "under the current circumstances, this transition is impossible" doesn't really make sense. While it may be very *difficult,* transition is (& must be) possible under any circumstances, or our society would never have changed from day 1.
ok i see your a different person from the person ( i think it was a girl? lol)
all im saying is that i dont think people are ready. there are too many divisions to overcome. global mass consciousnness wont arise in this millenium i think. people are not ready, technology is not ready. etc etc
"Don't jude a book from its cover" that is my moto. its easy to look at alternative(diffrent from now) way to better future and just say "Oh its communisim its bulshit and etc. I know becouse i'm the most smartest guy in the world!! " u get my point..
What I not agree with is pretending this is not a political movement or part of one. The fact that they aren't affiliated to a party is not a good argument.
Let's not fear politics; let's participate in a new movement.
welcome to the new world religion brought to you by the producters of Zeigeist
I am going to qoute Fresco " the world would be a much better place without half of the population" oh such a genious! oh what a lovely man mister Fresco is, NOT
YOU ARE BEING INDOCTRINATED TO THE NEW WORLD ORDER RELIGION
Keith, you are a liar, and an incompetent researcher, anyone who takes your claims seriously has no idea what they're talking about. Your claims that the association of Jesus with the Sun has been exposed for what it is, lies. Your claims that Acharya's work has been debunked, is - once again - lies. Give it up Keith, you can't shore up a faith that has been debunked on countless occasions. It's time to grow up, and stop blocking people who contradict your debunked viewpoint.
The only thing that has been debunked are the theosophic lies that you have fallen for and defend like a good little robot.
Instead of vague meaningless generalizations why don't you debate me with a mic? 3 minutes for you 3 minutes for me, Is Jesus the Sun or a historical figure? Lets do it.
Keith, Keith, Keith. I have a video uploaded, that clearly disproves your foolish idea that the Theosophists were the first to propound that Jesus was the Sun. A debate would be ineffective, as it takes time to put together the information needed, and restricting such things to a 3 minute time frame is pointless. If you wish to debunk my video 'Jesus Christ is the Sun: A Claim originating from Theosophy', then be my guest.
Me a good little robot? Get on your knees and recite scripture, Keith!
dude dude dude. I just watched your video and I am not impressed by your performance. Infact I had to chuckle while watching it. The article you quote from, from Ralph Monday is pathetic. Expect a video response in a half hour or so. LOL
Firstly, I'm going to have to assume that Ralph quoted from Acharya's books, as I have never seen the article. Secondly, I shall refute your video when I get the time. You've debunked nothing... yet again, Keith.
You obviously haven't read any of Fresco's books, nor do you understand the Venus Project at all. And our current methods of production can't support the population, which is why the system needs to be updated, so yes you've also quoted Fresco out of context.
Well, I'd like to think that he's as much of a genius as to be able to spell it correctly. Go back to school, and come back when you have basic knowledge of human psychology and economics.
I have read his CRAP, I have read from Blavatsky, Bailey, and company, I understand the Venus project MUCH MORE than you do, I havent quoted Fresco out of context is his words coming out of his mouth.
You poor robot you think you have the ultimate truth? you are being indoctrinated for the coming new world order as Alice Bailey said "The Externalization of the Hierarchy" that is what people like dear lovely Peter Joseph, Miss Fresco, Puffy Jordan Maxwell are doing.
What a childish comment. Oh, you're regurgitating Keithtruth's foolishness, now. If you had any idea what the Venus Project was, you'd know how ridiculous such claims are.
What a childish comment. Oh, you're regurgitating Bailey, Blavatsky, Joseph and company foolishness, now. If you had any idea what the Venus Project was, you'd know how ridiculous such claims are.
They're not ridiculous, you clearly haven't researched into the basis of the claims made, which is unfortunate, as it renders your judgement valueless. Furthermore, you're just regurgitating what Keithtruth points out, who has proven to be a pathological liar.
As for Acharya, you clearly haven't read a single book by her, as she presents her primary source evidence very clearly. It's a shame that you're making such presumptuous remarks.
IDIOT, I havent quote your dear Fresco out of context he said that in order to have "a balanced world".
I am in school I am studing I am not a stupid idiot that believes anything coming out of retarded unqualifiaed people like Achayra S and company, you and people like you are a disgarce to critical thinkers. You really need to use your BRAIN CELLS.
Firstly, you should perhaps check Acharya's credentials... she has more than you. Secondly, this isn't even about Acharya. I advise you to study human psychology, dissociated with the Venus Project - and you will realise that what is being said is in accordance to our present knowledge in regards to the subject,
yea right, Achayra has credentials and I am the Queen of England, Achayra S cant prove ONE single "fact" of her books simply because is not based on REAL history and is REJECTED by QUALIFIED SCHOOLARS and HISTORIANS
If credentials are not relevant, then why quoting scholars and historians. I (common me) think those qualified historians lack enough information to believe there was a real Jesus. After all, their widely-accepted hypothesis is based on the hypothetical 'Q' document which no one has ever seen. They infer a fact as a supposed effect from something whose existence has no proof. That's positivism. They look for what they want to find, and they manage to find a way so they can hold a conclusion.
Get a dictonary and see if you can read what HISTORIAN stands for, then you can talk, historians base their research in FACTS, and your dear Achayra bases her "research" in her WILD imagination, and in Blavastky books.
Acharya is not dear to me but it's better to have as many opponents to the mainstream History as possible so that at least there can be some discussion. Are you sure a historian is what you say or what a dictionary says? So far History has always been a way for the elites to keep the same static hierarchical system. Any dictionary will give you a definition that follows those standards. Base their research in facts... Again, "Q" is not a fact but a hypothesis.
In this case, thinking that a 1000-years dominant interested Catholic Church with a strong political influence decides that Jesus should be historicized then he will be eventually historicized, is quite reasonable.
I mean, even in our days, education systems produce the kind of people the bankers and their puppet governments want to produce: specialized ignorants.
Some of the highlights from Baileys The Externalization of the Hierarchy include the following:
The problem of money will have to be faced; the problem of the distribution of wealth - whether natural or human - will need careful handling and a compromise reached between those nations which possess unlimited resources and those who have few or none;
the problem of forms of national government must be faced with courage and insight; the restoration - psychological, spiritual and physical - of mankind must constitute a primary responsibility. The sense of security must be put on a firm basis - the basis of right relationship, and not the basis of force. Men must feel secure because they are seeking to develop international goodwill and can trust each other, and are not therefore dependent upon the strength of their armies and fleets.
Technology can make many things abundant and the film discusses energy in great detail, but that is hardly everything. Human demand is limitless, its simply not possible for 6 billion people to each live in a 5000 square foot mansion with attached private beach on the Florida coast. We live in a finite world and I am simply not convinced that even the base assumption proselytized by this film is realistic.
You are still in school? How old are you? You obviously haven't had the time to study human psychology in regards to what creates WANTS, and what generates NEEDS. Humans want things in excess because of scarcity, if there was no scarcity, there would be no need for excess, PERIOD. Population growth is a product of poor education, or a positive reinforcement for having an unsustainable amount of children. You're calling me an idiot? You haven't understood the Project at all.
I am 19. You are the one who needs to learn about human psychology if you had BRAIN CELLS you will understand that only BRAINWASHED fools can accept to give up their freedoms to a communist elite. Zeitgeist Addendum its proposals are clearly spelled out in a relatively unknown book entitled The Externalization of the Hierarchy written by Alice Bailey
You're exactly what the system wants. You really sound as though you worked for someone. You even mentioned the communists, which is the typical American phobia created in the middle 20th century by communists greatest enemies, the phobia that keeps everyone seeing communism everywhere like paranoids and always considering communism as a terrible crime just because Stalin, who wasn't really a communist, was an enemy to the US.
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WHAT AN IDIOT, so Lennin that killed more than 20 million people in Russia is a great man? and Mao tse who killed a WHOLE generation of chinese people?
AND the communist goverment in Cambodia??
YOU ARE A IGNORANT the only "programed" tool here is you, you are such a fool for believing in rubbish like zeitgeist done by some communist that want to take away the freedom of CHOICE, go back to sleep, IDIOT!
None of those projects is any form of communism. In fact, you don't have to emulate Lenin to overcome the capitalist illness.
You can't make any responsible choice in a system with social inequality. What you call choice is the concept that the bankers created to justify their own antisocial tendencies so that ignorants like you worshiped that as a value, and then can go boasting about their own riches while using corrupt laws as a backup. Your concept of choice implies robbing other people.
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oh, no of course not! they were not communists, go to bed moron!
keep dreaming about your fantasy world, where everyone is happy to be a slave much more slaves of the system than they are now, zeigeist dream is a global marxist fascist communist state, you are just to dumb brainwashed to realize that,
so go ahead keep dreaming, I wont bother to answer you back you are lost.
Communism operates with money and scarcity. The Venus Project wishes to eliminate both of these things, so how logically can it be communism? It can't. If you want to waste your entire life being a wage slave that's your own business. Don't critisize what you don't understand.
No, it just has a negative connotation attached, that's why I got so many thumbs down when I in fact support the Venus Project, because I think it's the only way Communism would work. I'm a Libertarian Socialist not a Communist, merely because I think Communism is not as pragmatic as Socialism.
communism does NOT operate wit money and scarcity. the venus project is clearly derived from communism and socialism thought. you need to read up on existing ideologies, cuz you clearly dont know wtf you talking about.
@nemesis700 The basis of Communism was not proposed to operate on scarcity, but it was definitely founded in a monetary system, & meant 2operate within a monetary system. Willingly declaring the earth's resources as the common heritage of all the earth's people, is not the same as the "state" designing a model where "everyone shares." TVP model is very different, & therefore it's taken very much out of context 2even suggest that it's derived from comm. / soc. thought. I'm glad ur for TVP, but u
communism and socialism are not but things. all new models on society's which are focused on the well being of the everyone in the community, based on equality are derived from communist and socialist thought. communism is not based on scarcity. neither is it based on a monetary system. i dont know where you got that from. communism is based on the equality of man. and money breeds inequality.
communism and socialism are not BAD* things. implements of socialism in modern day societies made them an infinitely better place to live in than 70 years ago.
check it out. i think cuz communism and socialism got such a bad rep, hes tryna to disguise tvp as something different. but those who are in the know, know that there are way too many similarities. its wrong to say that the difference between communism and tvp is that tvp is based on 'earth's resources being common heritage', cuz communism is based on the same thing. 'zeitgeist' itself means mass global consciousness which is essentially based on Karl Marx and Engel's thoughts.
there really are so many similarities to not see that tvp and communism are the same thing such as that both emphasise the role in technology in future change.
people think that communism failed cuz its such a flawed ideology, but the main reasons it failed was that
1 those countries proclaimin communist are not true communist at all, they claim the name, but are really capitalist communist
2 in a global capitlitist society where trade is based on the monetary system communism cant win
if you can name me substantial differences between communism/socialism and tvp than by all means do so. but from what i can see. there are none. tvp seems to me to be a blend of anarchism and communism. with a little libertarianism mixed in.
dont get me wrong tho, im all for that type of society. if its done right.
@nemesis700 As a TVP supporter, u should b able 2name the substantial differences urself, but I will try 2outline them 4u.
1) Communism was never intended 2b a global system.
2) Communism never intended 2outgrow the monetary system. Declaring the earth's resources as the common heritage of all the earth's people (TVP), is not the same as "sharing the means of production & distribution" under government authority, within a monetary system. A true RBE can only exist if it is done globally.
communism IS a resource based economy. anyone who claims otherwise is not aware of what communism is. some one's been feeding you bullshit. i actually read Marx and Engels.
there is no monetary system in a communist society. like i said in my other comment, money breeds inequality. and in a communist society everyone is equal with each getting according to their need and everyone working for the benefit of society.
@nemesis700 Since when did Communism develop a model based on free, clean, & renewable energy? Since when did communism seek 2replace the human labor force ENTIRELY w/automated machinery? The answer is, it didn't. That was never part of the plan. You are ignoring the entire *environmental* aspect of TVP, by simply equating to the *political & economical* aspects of communism.
your point about energy is dependant on technology. technology is CENTRAL to communist thought. you cant expect the man to predict the future but he did say that technology will change society. what type of technology he did not know.
in this tvp society, do people not work for free? do they not work for the benefit of society? this is communism.
Marx's works state that people in a communist society will work in whatever field they want to. is this not the same in a tvp society?
@nemesis700 Again, u keep pointing out similarities, and that is all fine & dandy, but it is the DIFFERENCES that make it NOT Communism! Plain & simple, lol. This conversation will go in circles until u acknowledge the differences, which I must say, would be hard 2do if u havent even researched the most basic of information regarding the cybernated system, distribution centers, how the RBE would function, nothing! U must read & watch the seminars if u want to know. : )
@TVPchallenge Read the Communist Manifesto. You must read about and understand Communism. Communism is both a social system and an economic system. The means of production and how production is achieved is irrelevant as the philosophy and practice of the system are one and the same with TVP.
@Jsickert I'm not saying there aren't similarities. I'm saying that people need 2acknowledge the differences in order 2understand why TVP can work, and more importantly, why it can LAST. Those differences go far above & beyond the "means of production." (I agree w/u that it is irrelevant, that's what I was saying 2nemen). I also understand that the philosophies & practicies r similar, but they r not one in the same. Communism left many holes that TVP plugs, such as legalities & armed forces.
And what nemesis is trying to tell you, is that the deficiencies you see in Communism are due to lack of imagination and foresight of the original authors, in Communism there is to be an end for the need of police, armies, money, etc. Communism was to bring a Utopia which automatically implies the shedding of these conceptions. The root philosophies are the same, your differences are based on issues not core philosophy.
@Jsickert And that is why I said we r just arguing semantics then. If we acknowledge the deficiencies in Communism, then why compare it 2communism at all? We do not call TVP "The deficient Communism," we call it TVP, lol. To my knowledge, there was never a workable plan to end police, armies, & the monetary system, regarding Communism. They didn't display the technological plans 2end the labor force entirely, freeing humanity. But TVP is not intended 2b a Utopia, just a direction, toward a RBE.
Because the core philosophy is the same, the philosophy is the comparison.
Communism was to be the direction toward Utopia. It was a foundation, the specifics and fine tuning was for the following generations, sound familiar? TVP is rooted in Communist philosophy, but they are the next generation and have started to fine tune.
If an RBE doesn't bring a Utopia why bother? The point of a RBE is to make everyone's life better and not have a need to fight and kill each other...umm Utopia.
@Jsickert lol, I feel u. But Uptopia implies perfection, and even Jacque believes that there is no such thing. We will always have problems, & TVP isn't perfect, it's just much much better (lol). I agree, not fighting & killing each other would be start ;)
Oh I see, well... summarizing The Venus Project just from the movie Zeitgeist, is kind of like ...summarizing The Lord Of The Rings with... "something about a ring, & some hobbit dude." LOL
I know that was a bad example, but I couldn't resist. Especially bc my bf hates LOR, lol XD
@Jsickert True, but I guess that comes from the notion that, if something is perfect, there's no need 2change it. TVP will be always growing & evolving, though the principles may remain the same. Therefore I wouldn't define "perfection" in any certain terms, but by the fact that it needn't b changed... I suppose, is one way of looking @it. The end 2those things would b monumentally better, but w/individual goals & struggles, love & heartache, happiness & sadness, we will never be perfect. Unless
ahaha i swear its 2 people lol the way you type now is not the same you typed a couple comments ago. you type way younger here than you did a couple comments ago
i dont think anyone under 30 would use the word 'dandy' lol....someone hacked into your account?
@nemesis700 LOL!! I have split-personality... LOL j/k - What can I say, I am silly at heart ;) But no, for real, I don't always like 2take things 2seriously, so I might throw in some slang here & there, but overall I try 2use proper communication skills & vocabulary 2get my point accross. It's me, Brandy, all the way ;)
i didnt say it was communism. i said that tvp is mostly based on communism. people wanted to completely deny any form of similarities. id say tvp is about 95% communist.
and what ABOUT the enviroment? they had no idea about the enviromental issues that we face today. were they nastradamus incarnate? and if marx had im sure he would have put something in his work about it as i doubt he wanted to see the world blow up.
@nemesis700 Again nemesis, I understand what you're saying, and like Jsickert said, perhaps based on the philosophies, the environment would have been thrown in, had they known. However, I will say this again. If you know 50% about TVP (which is being generous), & not 100%, how can u judge whether it's 95% communism or not? Perhaps the 50% u understand is 95% communism, but ur missing a whole 'nother chunk that has nothing 2do w/communism, or other social systems. We MUST begin 2see past that.
@nemesis700 (And I already named them, and u ignored them. Communism never intended on abolishing the monetary system. Communism never intended on abolishing armed forces, or politics. How r these not monumental differences to u? If u cannot c the major differences in those characteristics alone, then this is simply a matter of perspective.) But please do read the material & videos I mentioned.
maybe your right. ive always thought that in a communist society where everyone is equal there would be no monetary system. if communist thought states that 'all forms of inequality will dissolve' wouldnt that mean money too....especially money! and as for armies. if there is 'collective ownership' why would there be a need for armies? wars start because of individual ownership.
didnt they mention everything about tvp in zeigeist 2?thought they did.
@nemesis700 I see. But in order for something to be successful it has to have a workable plan, in all areas. Therefore it is not conducive to say TVP is "based on" Communistic thought or principles, bc unfortunately it just leaves out entirely 2much information. Also, I fear there r way 2many ppl that think they mentioned 'everything' about TVP in Zeitgeist II, but I hope not : ( Bc that is so far from the truth it's not even funny. I talked 2Jsickert about this. I was a skeptic after Zeitgeist>
@nemesis700 >I studied TVP model in detail over the last year, & that's when I found more & more holes that it did a good job of plugging. People have so many questions, so many curiosities, & so many misunderstandings. I'm no history expert myself, but one thing I do know a hell of a lot about is TVP. And I feel if we r 2get anywhere w/this, people must do the same b4 dismissing it, or jumping 2conclusions. There r tons more sources of info (besides Zeitgeist Cliffsnotes ;) lol - Check my page
i drew my conclusions from watching zeitgeist. i didnt see many, if any, differences with communism besides the super computer part running everything. but even in this i think there is a flaw. there will come a point when some people want something done. shouldnt we as a whole come to a conclusion as to how to deal with this? are we goin to abide by what a computer dictates? wouldnt this either lead to another type of governing structure?
@nemesis700 Yeah, I wondered that too. There is an interesting part in there where Peter talks about how we can all participate & submit inventions, etc. It's awesome. Remember, it's not the computer "dictating" but that TVP requires that we all *at least* agree on using the scientific method 4the benefit of all. So the decision will not be "made" but "arrived at / calculated" by non-biased data. One cannot argue which invention is better, or which plant is better, science will tell us, while
lol if we all have to agree than that would be a communist trait. another unintended similarity i suppose lol...you watch south park? there's this one episode where cartman goes to the future. its similar to the whole 'science will tell us' part of tvp
@nemesis700 What a lot of people don't realize is, we all use the scientific method every day. Not only did it give us everything we have (inventions, etc.) but we use it every day just in making decisions & such. The scientific method falls right in line w/nature & how the earth operates, so 2disagree w/it is 2disagree w/our existence (hence the sh*t we're always finding ourselves in, lol)
but science nowadays does not supercede humans, if you get what i mean? and some humans have different morals and values to others. is the supercomputer goin to decide which is best for all, even if some people disagree? wont that be the subjugation of the minority? seems to me that we're goin to have reach some type of higher level of consciousness to achieve something like the venus project. and that means waiting for evolution. which will take a loooooooong time.
@nemesis700@nemesis700 This is why the cybernated system doesn't deal w/morals & values. It just takes care of our biological & technological needs. Meaning, we can hv different opinions, different tastes (food, music, clothes, doesn't matter), but the cybernated system will determine how 2react 2environmental changes, natural disasters, equal resource availability, etc. U see, some ppl cannot 'disagree' w/those things, they r scientific & mathematical facts. If they just wan2 disagree 2b an
a society wit no laws and governance is not something that you can achieve by holding seminars and spreading the message of a different type of society. that type of society will mean in essence, a different type of 'people'. this isnt a change that comes in days, years, or even millennia. its something thats gradual. trying to do this in this millenium would cause chaos. as much as i would love to see this happen. modern day utopia is fantasy. dedicating ya life to this is a waste
@nemesis700 We don't have millennia. We will extinguish ourselves before then if we continue in this pattern. Therefore, NOT dedicating ur life to this is a waste.
@nemesis700 still factoring in the availability of all the earth's resources, and the population (meaning the carrying capacity of the earth - what it can handle.)
@nemesis700 3) Communism has money, banks, armies, police, prisons, charismatic personalities, social stratification, and is managed by appointed leaders.
4) To say u r for this "type of society" if it's "done right" is acknowledging a substantial difference already. Something being done "right" or "wrong" makes the difference b/w day & night. That is like saying 'N. America' is 'Africa' done right... they are completely different, though they have numerous obvious similarities.
i dont know where you got ya info about communism came from but thats not true. lol where you get that from?
communism is the facilitated through ALL (thats everyone) workers overthrowing the government and establishing a system where EVERYONE is equal and EVERYONE makes the decisions. the government is not 10 or 20 people....its EVERYONE....everyone on the planet.
@nemesis700 Are you serious?! Ok, I'm sorry, but I cannot just tell you there are 3 moons, and then when you tell me there's one, I say "I don't know where you got your facts from." Everything I just said about Communism is 100% true, & can be found in any article, including Wikipedia. Please look it up. It doesn't matter 'how many' ppl r in the gov't. The point is, there's still a government in Communism!! Hence the terms "communist government" "communist states" & "authoritarian governments."
no its not. you THINK its true, cuz people told you it was.
your confusing modern history's varations of communism with PURE communism. pure communism CANNOT exist if there's only ONE country thats communist. and communism is a mass movement of the lower classes against the elite with the outcome being a communist soceity. the soviet union was totalitarian. it might have had some attributes of communism but it was NOT communist. neither was any other country.
@nemesis700 Ok, well then ur just arguing semantics. U have2 acknowledge that ppl have no frame of reference regarding social systems, other than history itself. So if communism was attempted & failed, then that was the result of 'communism' as far as we r concerned. The bottom line is, it's primary goals, nor the *means of achieving those goals* (scientific method, balance w/nature, free energy etc.) r even remotely close 2 TVP, so u can compare them all u want, but that doesn't make them equal
you keep equating communism with past supposedly 'communist' countries. THEY WERE NOT COMMUNIST.
regardless communism wouldnt work in this global society which is hellbent on the monetary system.
communism states that technological advances would bring about the next type of society. it went from 'feudalism' to 'democratic capitalism'. this was because of the TECHNOLOGICAL breakthrough in the MEANS OF PRODUCTION........
@nemesis700 Again, ur arguing semantics. "Past supposedly 'communist' countries r what history & human beings refer 2 as 'communism' therefore, u must acknowledge that definition if u wish 2communicate accordingly w/other human beings. Ur using ur own definition of communism, which is fine, but dont expect ppl 2understand u. Otherwise, until u research TVP further, u can call it "The Pure Nemesis700 Communism, not past failed variations of Communism - Project" but do not call it Communism.
the definition of communism is laid out in Marx's works. you cant deny that countrys such as soviet union and china are false communists. theyre totalitarian. lol i said it before that communism cannot work in this gobal climate. again that is because of the monetary system as well as the different governments. technology will fascilitate the transition into a different form of society. isnt that what tvp is based on?....well so is communism partner!
@nemesis700 Another major difference is that Marxism clearly states that KM intended it 2be the final stages in society. TVP advocates the notion that it will never b a "final" anything, just a direction we need 2take toward better social system & RBE. I understand what ur saying, & we can argue semantics all day long b/w "pure communism" & "tested communism" but ur still not grasping TVP until u know everything there is 2know. So do urself (& us) a favor & read up! TVP is called TVP 4 a reason!
......now if the means of productions signify the end of an era in the way we produce than the next breakthrough will lead to another era. AUTOMATED MACHINERY is a MEANS OF PRODUCTION. now if some type of cyborg will be doing the work for us than that will mean a technological advance in the means of productions which marx had included his work.
@nemesis700 I understand ur allusions to the "means of production" but the fact that there was never a detailed description as to how communism was supposed 2function economically makes it monumentally different from TVP. And u still have not even touched on the environmental issue, which was NEVER part of Marxism. The end.
@nemesis700 They also still had laws, & military; you cannot deny those facts. To do so is to deny history, & to imagine Marxism to be something it wasn't, when it's all in plain writing. TVP uses "the scientific method" to *arrive* at conclusions for the benefit of all, not "everyone making political decisions together." There are no politics in TVP, just science & technology for our natural flourishment.
please excuse some of my grammatical errors in my previous and possibly future comments lol my eyes, fingers and brain sometimes dont like to work together.
by 'done right' i meant that there hopefully wont be some type of elite or individual leader callin all the shots. some type of futuristic autocratic fascist society. you know?
@nemesis700 Again, I see ur point here, I really do, but that is exactly why we're saying u cannot say it's "communism" or has "communist" thought. Due 2the fact that it has characteristics of various social systems, and lacks characteristics of those very same systems, it is a unique blend all on its own, and is therefore called TVP, and not something else. What else should we call it? Soci-Commi-Anarchi-Liberti-Resource-Humanist-Nature-Techno-Democracy-Worldly-Plan???
@nemesis700 Ok nemesis, in all seriousness, you cannot call urself a TVP supporter, & then ASK what type of governing structure would exist in TVP. The cybernated system that manages our resources, & handles our production & distribution, w/out political interference, is the entire basis behind the existence & longevity of TVP. There will be no gov't & no human power or decision-making. Please watch Peter Joseph's "Where Are We Going" 4more information on how the cybernated system would work.
@nemesis700@nemesis700 spreading the idea that its modeled after seemingly "similar" social systems, places less weight on the very important & pertinent factors that are different. People need 2understand the dramatic differences between TVP & past failed social systems, not the similarities. The *differences* are what determines whether TVP is successful or not, and will determine its longevity into the future, as en ever-changing, & evolving model. It is not "absolute" like the others.
At your 19, what freedom do you think you have? The freedom of choosing - among a few people sponsored by and representing the interests of the same people that keep you ignorant - a leader, someone who makes decisions about your life for you? The freedom of pulling off as much money as possible so you can perpetually pay the debt that is supposed to never be paid off, and the freedom of having everyone else doing that to you in turn? The freedom of liking what private owners want you to like..?
Ridiculously wrong example. Even if having a 5000 square foot mansion with attached private beach is perfection for you, that would be reflecting a finite human demand. The fact that many people today have never thought of living in those conditions proves we don't need to aim for that. What we really need to aim for is being able to responsibly SHARE all of the resources and generate the technology necessary to expand the production of free goods. Resources are finite but enough.
You don't need to watch Zeitgeist to learn that natural resources in the world are enough to supply the basic needs of all the people in the world. It's just we have a money-based profit-oriented system that legally forces people to "rob" each other so they stay "in good terms" with each other (stay legit, not condemned) and keep the hierarchical social structure and the awful distribution of resources we have today. You don't have to watch Zeitgeist to learn that either. Resources are enough.
Please leave a comment on my channel if you would like to discuss possible flaws of such an economy. I also want to hear how people are making others aware of this movement, as it benefits me and others that i am currently showing it to to know that people across the world agree with the need for change. It empowers people, and gives them hope. Also, as is evident with history, people sort of go with the the majority, which thus far has been to ignore this movement all together.
It is important that if you agree with the possibilities of this society proposed by Peter and Jacque, then you must educated yourself not only about its benefits, but also its weak points. No plan has the answers to every possible situation, therefore we must address the problems of such a society coming to fruition. Instead of posting a comment that says "I fully support this movement", look into ways to display this to others, and discuss all the faults it still has.
We (at least Americans) live in a fast paced, dog-eat-dog society where the individual is not heard unless they have the credentials that people relate with intelligence and knowledge. The fact is, though, that with the vast information available through the internet and the ability to self educate; it is not only possible that people not part of the huge colleges, politics, banks, and international relations can have an intelligent response to global problems; it's highly likely.
People are saying that this is idealistic, an impossible plan. But what you must realize is that by educating mass groups of people, by getting credible sources to agree and see the logic behind it, and by forming "Q/A" sessions to discuss: faults, how it would be started, how it would be funded(since we still live in a monetary system); we can ultimately change the direction of humanity toward a more sustainable future, one that allows human beings to enjoy their lives and flourish.
These folks are evil.
juicearibe 5 months ago
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Free energy is finaly here!But there are very powerfull forces that want to supress the technology,Find the real deal, a free energy device at LT-MAGNET-MOTORdotCOM ,Big change is comming soon!
hungarylnnjsd 1 year ago
He's so FIINEE<3
erikAsuxxxweewee 1 year ago
Peter Joseph is way beyond his time, a true genius!
Bleibtmann 1 year ago 2
If you like ZEITGEIST then you'll love OSM the backbone to support the zeitgeist .Join the "Open Source Market" movement. Watch my video, make your own! Let's move foward.
OpenSourceMarket 1 year ago
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game is not over!!!!!
people r paralyzed by debts, stupid patriotic youth goes to gun selling and religious wars, wars killed thousands and continue. bio warfare spreads unbelievable diseases in war countries, soon we gonna eat all modified food without a right to know about it.
game is close to an end, but it is not over!!!!!!!!. soon we gonna have ww3 if we will continue supporting system that is desperate now and unpredictable. system gonna get us like hitler did. hurry!!!!. spread zeigeist!
TheAtheistworld 1 year ago
Peter Joseph is a freaking beast!!
GamingNeon 1 year ago 7
The Venus project´s got free-masonry written all over it.
I think the best thing humanity can work together for right now is printing honest, debt-free money through congress and dismantle the hold of the bank oligarchy by ending fractional reserve/private banking within government, thus ending western middle-class slavery, third world poverty (largely due to the interest on loans alone), making money serve us instead of ruling us.
Peace ya´ll
AlexTronic777 1 year ago
@AlexTronic777 As long as there is money there will be corruption, competition, greed and advantage, doesnt matter where it comes from...
beisbeis 1 year ago
@AlexTronic777 Money is essentially the method of access to resources. Given the Masons are (or were) rich and elitist, I simply can't follow your logic, if there is any, to your statement.
hypernation2007 1 year ago
@AlexTronic777 - What would be an example of Free-Masonry, that's written all over VP? Congress is well bought and paid for, so it has no teeth to action what you suggest - never mind that congress itself is a hive of free-masonry, or secret clubs.
aiyic 1 year ago
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@AlexTronic777 - What would be an example of Free-Masonry, that's written all over VP? Congress is well bought and paid for, so it has no teeth to action what you suggest - never mind that congress itself is a hive of free-masonry, or secret clubs.
aiyic 1 year ago
@AlexTronic777 i wish u could take my debts from me and put them deeply in your good wishing ass. and turn inside in all directions. after that u could print your money.
TheAtheistworld 1 year ago
@AlexTronic777 Peace ya´ll too
TheAtheistworld 1 year ago
@AlexTronic777 i mean, print your money for yourself. so u could be free. u will print your money as much as u need. u gonna be the owner and the boss of your money. i also recommend u to choose the right heaven from a right god first.
TheAtheistworld 1 year ago
As long as the army fights for government, nothing can be done. We can't ask the government to please eliminate money. If the people revolt, they bring martial law. It seems to me there's only one thing to do. Quit your job, don't use your car, don't buy anything. Within hours the government will have to declare bankruptcy as they cannot hand out unemployment cheques. Business will go out of business if they can't move their products. Banks will be done.
chamaoui 2 years ago
if the entire population rises up. theres nothing they can do about it.
nemesis700 1 year ago
Yes cogar48...whatever....opinions are like A-Holes...everybody has one!!!
bagiee1 2 years ago 3
i love PJ
twitchtac 2 years ago 12
unfortuanatly i think it is the first movie that makes many people apprhensve of the venus project and the zeitgeist movement in general .I liked addendum in fact i was in the mddle of writing a book in the same vein when i first heard of addendum but i stoped(not angry he got there first im glad at least someone got it done).As stated earlier the 1st movie which was terrible and laughable i think people should be introduced to addendum 1st to be introduced to fresco and meadows
oreolvrsshane1987 2 years ago
We will certainly live in this current system for a while, the movement's intent is not to make this change at an instant, but to make people aware of this new system, and have them fully understand it, to create a critical mass so to speak. The goal is to have as many as possible supporters, who also could start taking actions by themselves, to have the support of technicians, advertisers, lawyers, etc. who could help make the first city, or to promote free energy solutions for example.
TheSentinel429 2 years ago
it's that same brown suit again! doesn't he have any other clothes?
jeremalaria 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
He should've come out wearing a bunny costume or something hilarious.
seanotube85 2 years ago
and then people would have took him more seriously...
BestBefore111189 2 years ago
Who cares if they take him seriously or not? If he's got the facts it shouldn't fucking matter. And that's what humanity can't seem to grasp. HAHAHAH!! It's sad but it's true.
seanotube85 2 years ago
it's a serious topic. Not some circus. I'd rather people took this seriously. There's nothing funny goin on... this is about your life and mine.
BestBefore111189 2 years ago 2
Okay, I'm sorry you can't appreciate my humor. All I'm saying, though, is that in a freer society it shouldn't matter what he's wearing because we could appreciate the fact behind the issues.
seanotube85 2 years ago 2
Right. But unfortunetly we're still living in the monetary society... so he's only as free as his purchasing power will allow........ i don't think he can afford a bunny costume haha
BestBefore111189 2 years ago 3
HAH! Valid point.
seanotube85 2 years ago
most def... or maybe a nice charcoal and pin stripes... or you know... just some jeans and a nice button down... change it up a bit you know? he's wearing the exact same thing to every speech. it's like he did them all on the same day or something.
jeremalaria 2 years ago
who gives a fuck what he wears
willowb22 2 years ago
well if you don't care, then shut the hell up.. some people do care.
jeremalaria 2 years ago
idiots abound!! why don't you wake up and smell the coffee. people like you live in denial! an example of the brainwashed people who refuse to listen to the truth.
pdxcoledogg 2 years ago 3
Under the current circumstances, this transition is impossible. Society has grown accustomed to working for profit, so as soon as [hypothetically speaking of course] this new society takes hold, people will stop working, ceasing all provisions for life. People will die. A lot of them.
So it's not about questioning the flaws of the society, but more how will we get there that is of main concerns. For all societies are discovered by trial and error. We can do it again.
polkaspotsss 2 years ago
Hi. I think I get what ur saying, but, if u think about it, the statement "under the current circumstances, this transition is impossible" doesn't really make sense. While it may be very *difficult,* transition is (& must be) possible under any circumstances, or our society would never have changed from day 1.
TVPchallenge 1 year ago
ok i see your a different person from the person ( i think it was a girl? lol)
all im saying is that i dont think people are ready. there are too many divisions to overcome. global mass consciousnness wont arise in this millenium i think. people are not ready, technology is not ready. etc etc
nemesis700 1 year ago
The tv could possibly be considered the most devious and evil instrument of warfare in all of recorded time.
l337being1 2 years ago 4
What about the internet ? and the Movies and the manipulative mass Movements ?
Throughthetruth 2 years ago
As long as there is a tv controlled by a certain group of media then it will always be like this.
l337being1 2 years ago 3
But that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for it!
TJMonster51 2 years ago 3
i just saw the movie, and my mind is BLOWN.
GanjaBaas 2 years ago 5
i just seen it and my mind is blown too, let's take action. we are changing the world.
yari13 2 years ago 6
yes brother, lets act now!:D
norsknerd 2 years ago 3
Have you seen both movies?
glennokada 2 years ago 2
yes, and i liked the second one better.
GanjaBaas 2 years ago 3
"Don't jude a book from its cover" that is my moto. its easy to look at alternative(diffrent from now) way to better future and just say "Oh its communisim its bulshit and etc. I know becouse i'm the most smartest guy in the world!! " u get my point..
Masterbeat69 2 years ago 4
What I not agree with is pretending this is not a political movement or part of one. The fact that they aren't affiliated to a party is not a good argument.
Let's not fear politics; let's participate in a new movement.
Pectiniculus 2 years ago
I have a new movement every morning, right after my coffee.
H82Sayit 2 years ago
Well, not just any movement. I'm not gonna join.
Pectiniculus 2 years ago
welcome to the new world religion brought to you by the producters of Zeigeist
I am going to qoute Fresco " the world would be a much better place without half of the population" oh such a genious! oh what a lovely man mister Fresco is, NOT
YOU ARE BEING INDOCTRINATED TO THE NEW WORLD ORDER RELIGION
INSANEDESIGNER 2 years ago
Nothing is going to awake in you in 2012. One World is older than you think. This will explain everything:
watch?v=Z41o_uRAmlw
Try to deny this, "truthers"...
00070707000 2 years ago
Cant wait 2013 1 january to see how nothing happens.
akais9 2 years ago
Theosophic seed group meant to induct the populace into the UN agenda. Next.
KeithTruth 2 years ago 3
Keith, you are a liar, and an incompetent researcher, anyone who takes your claims seriously has no idea what they're talking about. Your claims that the association of Jesus with the Sun has been exposed for what it is, lies. Your claims that Acharya's work has been debunked, is - once again - lies. Give it up Keith, you can't shore up a faith that has been debunked on countless occasions. It's time to grow up, and stop blocking people who contradict your debunked viewpoint.
dudekin 2 years ago
The only thing that has been debunked are the theosophic lies that you have fallen for and defend like a good little robot.
Instead of vague meaningless generalizations why don't you debate me with a mic? 3 minutes for you 3 minutes for me, Is Jesus the Sun or a historical figure? Lets do it.
KeithTruth 2 years ago
Keith, Keith, Keith. I have a video uploaded, that clearly disproves your foolish idea that the Theosophists were the first to propound that Jesus was the Sun. A debate would be ineffective, as it takes time to put together the information needed, and restricting such things to a 3 minute time frame is pointless. If you wish to debunk my video 'Jesus Christ is the Sun: A Claim originating from Theosophy', then be my guest.
Me a good little robot? Get on your knees and recite scripture, Keith!
dudekin 2 years ago
dude dude dude. I just watched your video and I am not impressed by your performance. Infact I had to chuckle while watching it. The article you quote from, from Ralph Monday is pathetic. Expect a video response in a half hour or so. LOL
KeithTruth 2 years ago
Firstly, I'm going to have to assume that Ralph quoted from Acharya's books, as I have never seen the article. Secondly, I shall refute your video when I get the time. You've debunked nothing... yet again, Keith.
dudekin 2 years ago
you are not debunking anything or anyone,you base your "research" in achayra s writings and her brainwashed cult followers.
INSANEDESIGNER 2 years ago
You obviously haven't read any of Fresco's books, nor do you understand the Venus Project at all. And our current methods of production can't support the population, which is why the system needs to be updated, so yes you've also quoted Fresco out of context.
Well, I'd like to think that he's as much of a genius as to be able to spell it correctly. Go back to school, and come back when you have basic knowledge of human psychology and economics.
dudekin 2 years ago
I have read his CRAP, I have read from Blavatsky, Bailey, and company, I understand the Venus project MUCH MORE than you do, I havent quoted Fresco out of context is his words coming out of his mouth.
You poor robot you think you have the ultimate truth? you are being indoctrinated for the coming new world order as Alice Bailey said "The Externalization of the Hierarchy" that is what people like dear lovely Peter Joseph, Miss Fresco, Puffy Jordan Maxwell are doing.
INSANEDESIGNER 2 years ago
'You think you have the ultimate truth?'
What a childish comment. Oh, you're regurgitating Keithtruth's foolishness, now. If you had any idea what the Venus Project was, you'd know how ridiculous such claims are.
dudekin 2 years ago
What a childish comment. Oh, you're regurgitating Bailey, Blavatsky, Joseph and company foolishness, now. If you had any idea what the Venus Project was, you'd know how ridiculous such claims are.
INSANEDESIGNER 2 years ago
They're not ridiculous, you clearly haven't researched into the basis of the claims made, which is unfortunate, as it renders your judgement valueless. Furthermore, you're just regurgitating what Keithtruth points out, who has proven to be a pathological liar.
As for Acharya, you clearly haven't read a single book by her, as she presents her primary source evidence very clearly. It's a shame that you're making such presumptuous remarks.
dudekin 2 years ago
IDIOT, I havent quote your dear Fresco out of context he said that in order to have "a balanced world".
I am in school I am studing I am not a stupid idiot that believes anything coming out of retarded unqualifiaed people like Achayra S and company, you and people like you are a disgarce to critical thinkers. You really need to use your BRAIN CELLS.
INSANEDESIGNER 2 years ago
'You really need to use your BRAIN CELLS'
You really need to grow up, for starters.
'Retarded, unqualified people'
Firstly, you should perhaps check Acharya's credentials... she has more than you. Secondly, this isn't even about Acharya. I advise you to study human psychology, dissociated with the Venus Project - and you will realise that what is being said is in accordance to our present knowledge in regards to the subject,
dudekin 2 years ago
yea right, Achayra has credentials and I am the Queen of England, Achayra S cant prove ONE single "fact" of her books simply because is not based on REAL history and is REJECTED by QUALIFIED SCHOOLARS and HISTORIANS
INSANEDESIGNER 2 years ago
If credentials are not relevant, then why quoting scholars and historians. I (common me) think those qualified historians lack enough information to believe there was a real Jesus. After all, their widely-accepted hypothesis is based on the hypothetical 'Q' document which no one has ever seen. They infer a fact as a supposed effect from something whose existence has no proof. That's positivism. They look for what they want to find, and they manage to find a way so they can hold a conclusion.
Pectiniculus 2 years ago
yes you are right! And I am a flying ostrich
Get a dictonary and see if you can read what HISTORIAN stands for, then you can talk, historians base their research in FACTS, and your dear Achayra bases her "research" in her WILD imagination, and in Blavastky books.
INSANEDESIGNER 2 years ago
Acharya is not dear to me but it's better to have as many opponents to the mainstream History as possible so that at least there can be some discussion. Are you sure a historian is what you say or what a dictionary says? So far History has always been a way for the elites to keep the same static hierarchical system. Any dictionary will give you a definition that follows those standards. Base their research in facts... Again, "Q" is not a fact but a hypothesis.
Pectiniculus 2 years ago 2
Comment removed
Pectiniculus 2 years ago
In this case, thinking that a 1000-years dominant interested Catholic Church with a strong political influence decides that Jesus should be historicized then he will be eventually historicized, is quite reasonable.
I mean, even in our days, education systems produce the kind of people the bankers and their puppet governments want to produce: specialized ignorants.
Pectiniculus 2 years ago 3
Some of the highlights from Baileys The Externalization of the Hierarchy include the following:
The problem of money will have to be faced; the problem of the distribution of wealth - whether natural or human - will need careful handling and a compromise reached between those nations which possess unlimited resources and those who have few or none;
INSANEDESIGNER 2 years ago
the problem of forms of national government must be faced with courage and insight; the restoration - psychological, spiritual and physical - of mankind must constitute a primary responsibility. The sense of security must be put on a firm basis - the basis of right relationship, and not the basis of force. Men must feel secure because they are seeking to develop international goodwill and can trust each other, and are not therefore dependent upon the strength of their armies and fleets.
INSANEDESIGNER 2 years ago
Technology can make many things abundant and the film discusses energy in great detail, but that is hardly everything. Human demand is limitless, its simply not possible for 6 billion people to each live in a 5000 square foot mansion with attached private beach on the Florida coast. We live in a finite world and I am simply not convinced that even the base assumption proselytized by this film is realistic.
INSANEDESIGNER 2 years ago
You are still in school? How old are you? You obviously haven't had the time to study human psychology in regards to what creates WANTS, and what generates NEEDS. Humans want things in excess because of scarcity, if there was no scarcity, there would be no need for excess, PERIOD. Population growth is a product of poor education, or a positive reinforcement for having an unsustainable amount of children. You're calling me an idiot? You haven't understood the Project at all.
dudekin 2 years ago
I am 19. You are the one who needs to learn about human psychology if you had BRAIN CELLS you will understand that only BRAINWASHED fools can accept to give up their freedoms to a communist elite. Zeitgeist Addendum its proposals are clearly spelled out in a relatively unknown book entitled The Externalization of the Hierarchy written by Alice Bailey
INSANEDESIGNER 2 years ago
You're exactly what the system wants. You really sound as though you worked for someone. You even mentioned the communists, which is the typical American phobia created in the middle 20th century by communists greatest enemies, the phobia that keeps everyone seeing communism everywhere like paranoids and always considering communism as a terrible crime just because Stalin, who wasn't really a communist, was an enemy to the US.
Pectiniculus 2 years ago 2
This comment has received too many negative votes show
WHAT AN IDIOT, so Lennin that killed more than 20 million people in Russia is a great man? and Mao tse who killed a WHOLE generation of chinese people?
AND the communist goverment in Cambodia??
YOU ARE A IGNORANT the only "programed" tool here is you, you are such a fool for believing in rubbish like zeitgeist done by some communist that want to take away the freedom of CHOICE, go back to sleep, IDIOT!
INSANEDESIGNER 2 years ago
None of those projects is any form of communism. In fact, you don't have to emulate Lenin to overcome the capitalist illness.
You can't make any responsible choice in a system with social inequality. What you call choice is the concept that the bankers created to justify their own antisocial tendencies so that ignorants like you worshiped that as a value, and then can go boasting about their own riches while using corrupt laws as a backup. Your concept of choice implies robbing other people.
Pectiniculus 2 years ago 3
This comment has received too many negative votes show
oh, no of course not! they were not communists, go to bed moron!
keep dreaming about your fantasy world, where everyone is happy to be a slave much more slaves of the system than they are now, zeigeist dream is a global marxist fascist communist state, you are just to dumb brainwashed to realize that,
so go ahead keep dreaming, I wont bother to answer you back you are lost.
INSANEDESIGNER 2 years ago
It's so easy saying that anyone else are brainwashed when the backup of this system "justifes" your position.
Remember that "being well adapted to a profoundly sick system is no measure of good health".you don't have to be brainwashed to have that stand.
Pectiniculus 2 years ago 2
Oh, I forgot I'm lost now.
Pectiniculus 2 years ago
Communism operates with money and scarcity. The Venus Project wishes to eliminate both of these things, so how logically can it be communism? It can't. If you want to waste your entire life being a wage slave that's your own business. Don't critisize what you don't understand.
vaporarrows 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
The Venus Project is pure Technological Anarcho-Communism
cogar48 2 years ago
is that a bad thing? if so, why?
nemesis700 1 year ago
No, it just has a negative connotation attached, that's why I got so many thumbs down when I in fact support the Venus Project, because I think it's the only way Communism would work. I'm a Libertarian Socialist not a Communist, merely because I think Communism is not as pragmatic as Socialism.
cogar48 1 year ago
communism does NOT operate wit money and scarcity. the venus project is clearly derived from communism and socialism thought. you need to read up on existing ideologies, cuz you clearly dont know wtf you talking about.
nemesis700 1 year ago
@nemesis700 The basis of Communism was not proposed to operate on scarcity, but it was definitely founded in a monetary system, & meant 2operate within a monetary system. Willingly declaring the earth's resources as the common heritage of all the earth's people, is not the same as the "state" designing a model where "everyone shares." TVP model is very different, & therefore it's taken very much out of context 2even suggest that it's derived from comm. / soc. thought. I'm glad ur for TVP, but u
TVPchallenge 1 year ago
communism and socialism are not but things. all new models on society's which are focused on the well being of the everyone in the community, based on equality are derived from communist and socialist thought. communism is not based on scarcity. neither is it based on a monetary system. i dont know where you got that from. communism is based on the equality of man. and money breeds inequality.
nemesis700 1 year ago
communism and socialism are not BAD* things. implements of socialism in modern day societies made them an infinitely better place to live in than 70 years ago.
nemesis700 1 year ago
check it out. i think cuz communism and socialism got such a bad rep, hes tryna to disguise tvp as something different. but those who are in the know, know that there are way too many similarities. its wrong to say that the difference between communism and tvp is that tvp is based on 'earth's resources being common heritage', cuz communism is based on the same thing. 'zeitgeist' itself means mass global consciousness which is essentially based on Karl Marx and Engel's thoughts.
nemesis700 1 year ago
there really are so many similarities to not see that tvp and communism are the same thing such as that both emphasise the role in technology in future change.
people think that communism failed cuz its such a flawed ideology, but the main reasons it failed was that
1 those countries proclaimin communist are not true communist at all, they claim the name, but are really capitalist communist
2 in a global capitlitist society where trade is based on the monetary system communism cant win
nemesis700 1 year ago
if you can name me substantial differences between communism/socialism and tvp than by all means do so. but from what i can see. there are none. tvp seems to me to be a blend of anarchism and communism. with a little libertarianism mixed in.
dont get me wrong tho, im all for that type of society. if its done right.
nemesis700 1 year ago
@nemesis700 As a TVP supporter, u should b able 2name the substantial differences urself, but I will try 2outline them 4u.
1) Communism was never intended 2b a global system.
2) Communism never intended 2outgrow the monetary system. Declaring the earth's resources as the common heritage of all the earth's people (TVP), is not the same as "sharing the means of production & distribution" under government authority, within a monetary system. A true RBE can only exist if it is done globally.
TVPchallenge 1 year ago
communism IS a resource based economy. anyone who claims otherwise is not aware of what communism is. some one's been feeding you bullshit. i actually read Marx and Engels.
there is no monetary system in a communist society. like i said in my other comment, money breeds inequality. and in a communist society everyone is equal with each getting according to their need and everyone working for the benefit of society.
nemesis700 1 year ago
@nemesis700 Since when did Communism develop a model based on free, clean, & renewable energy? Since when did communism seek 2replace the human labor force ENTIRELY w/automated machinery? The answer is, it didn't. That was never part of the plan. You are ignoring the entire *environmental* aspect of TVP, by simply equating to the *political & economical* aspects of communism.
TVPchallenge 1 year ago
your point about energy is dependant on technology. technology is CENTRAL to communist thought. you cant expect the man to predict the future but he did say that technology will change society. what type of technology he did not know.
in this tvp society, do people not work for free? do they not work for the benefit of society? this is communism.
Marx's works state that people in a communist society will work in whatever field they want to. is this not the same in a tvp society?
nemesis700 1 year ago
@nemesis700 Again, u keep pointing out similarities, and that is all fine & dandy, but it is the DIFFERENCES that make it NOT Communism! Plain & simple, lol. This conversation will go in circles until u acknowledge the differences, which I must say, would be hard 2do if u havent even researched the most basic of information regarding the cybernated system, distribution centers, how the RBE would function, nothing! U must read & watch the seminars if u want to know. : )
TVPchallenge 1 year ago
@TVPchallenge Read the Communist Manifesto. You must read about and understand Communism. Communism is both a social system and an economic system. The means of production and how production is achieved is irrelevant as the philosophy and practice of the system are one and the same with TVP.
Jsickert 1 year ago
@Jsickert I'm not saying there aren't similarities. I'm saying that people need 2acknowledge the differences in order 2understand why TVP can work, and more importantly, why it can LAST. Those differences go far above & beyond the "means of production." (I agree w/u that it is irrelevant, that's what I was saying 2nemen). I also understand that the philosophies & practicies r similar, but they r not one in the same. Communism left many holes that TVP plugs, such as legalities & armed forces.
TVPchallenge 1 year ago
And what nemesis is trying to tell you, is that the deficiencies you see in Communism are due to lack of imagination and foresight of the original authors, in Communism there is to be an end for the need of police, armies, money, etc. Communism was to bring a Utopia which automatically implies the shedding of these conceptions. The root philosophies are the same, your differences are based on issues not core philosophy.
Jsickert 1 year ago
@Jsickert And that is why I said we r just arguing semantics then. If we acknowledge the deficiencies in Communism, then why compare it 2communism at all? We do not call TVP "The deficient Communism," we call it TVP, lol. To my knowledge, there was never a workable plan to end police, armies, & the monetary system, regarding Communism. They didn't display the technological plans 2end the labor force entirely, freeing humanity. But TVP is not intended 2b a Utopia, just a direction, toward a RBE.
TVPchallenge 1 year ago
Because the core philosophy is the same, the philosophy is the comparison.
Communism was to be the direction toward Utopia. It was a foundation, the specifics and fine tuning was for the following generations, sound familiar? TVP is rooted in Communist philosophy, but they are the next generation and have started to fine tune.
If an RBE doesn't bring a Utopia why bother? The point of a RBE is to make everyone's life better and not have a need to fight and kill each other...umm Utopia.
Jsickert 1 year ago
@Jsickert lol, I feel u. But Uptopia implies perfection, and even Jacque believes that there is no such thing. We will always have problems, & TVP isn't perfect, it's just much much better (lol). I agree, not fighting & killing each other would be start ;)
TVPchallenge 1 year ago
sure wish I could spell... *Utopia* (lol)
TVPchallenge 1 year ago
but yo, was i talking to 2 people or just 1 person during this discussion?
nemesis700 1 year ago
@nemesis700 I think just me O:-)
Oh I see, well... summarizing The Venus Project just from the movie Zeitgeist, is kind of like ...summarizing The Lord Of The Rings with... "something about a ring, & some hobbit dude." LOL
I know that was a bad example, but I couldn't resist. Especially bc my bf hates LOR, lol XD
TVPchallenge 1 year ago
The books ruled, the movies SUCKED.
Jsickert 1 year ago
@Jsickert hahaha, u got me there O:-) I never read the books, but I used 2b in love w/ Orlando Bloom.
TVPchallenge 1 year ago
Just 1. Sorry to interrupt. I just have a chip about people confusing Communism and Socialism.
Jsickert 1 year ago
nah i meant that someone's using her account to type to me. i dont mind anyone joinin in this discussion.
nemesis700 1 year ago
Now there is a semantic argument. Define perfection. For some an end to the fighting, killing, working, and worrying would be perfection.
Jsickert 1 year ago
@Jsickert True, but I guess that comes from the notion that, if something is perfect, there's no need 2change it. TVP will be always growing & evolving, though the principles may remain the same. Therefore I wouldn't define "perfection" in any certain terms, but by the fact that it needn't b changed... I suppose, is one way of looking @it. The end 2those things would b monumentally better, but w/individual goals & struggles, love & heartache, happiness & sadness, we will never be perfect. Unless
TVPchallenge 1 year ago
ahaha i swear its 2 people lol the way you type now is not the same you typed a couple comments ago. you type way younger here than you did a couple comments ago
i dont think anyone under 30 would use the word 'dandy' lol....someone hacked into your account?
i still think the basics of tvp is communist tho
nemesis700 1 year ago
@nemesis700 LOL!! I have split-personality... LOL j/k - What can I say, I am silly at heart ;) But no, for real, I don't always like 2take things 2seriously, so I might throw in some slang here & there, but overall I try 2use proper communication skills & vocabulary 2get my point accross. It's me, Brandy, all the way ;)
TVPchallenge 1 year ago
@Jsickert of course, we consider *that* (the human qualities I described) perfection! : )
TVPchallenge 1 year ago
@TVPchallenge Depends on if you ask Data or Spock. :)
Jsickert 1 year ago
i didnt say it was communism. i said that tvp is mostly based on communism. people wanted to completely deny any form of similarities. id say tvp is about 95% communist.
and what ABOUT the enviroment? they had no idea about the enviromental issues that we face today. were they nastradamus incarnate? and if marx had im sure he would have put something in his work about it as i doubt he wanted to see the world blow up.
i see you talking about differences. NAME THEM.
nemesis700 1 year ago
@nemesis700 Again nemesis, I understand what you're saying, and like Jsickert said, perhaps based on the philosophies, the environment would have been thrown in, had they known. However, I will say this again. If you know 50% about TVP (which is being generous), & not 100%, how can u judge whether it's 95% communism or not? Perhaps the 50% u understand is 95% communism, but ur missing a whole 'nother chunk that has nothing 2do w/communism, or other social systems. We MUST begin 2see past that.
TVPchallenge 1 year ago
@nemesis700 (And I already named them, and u ignored them. Communism never intended on abolishing the monetary system. Communism never intended on abolishing armed forces, or politics. How r these not monumental differences to u? If u cannot c the major differences in those characteristics alone, then this is simply a matter of perspective.) But please do read the material & videos I mentioned.
TVPchallenge 1 year ago
maybe your right. ive always thought that in a communist society where everyone is equal there would be no monetary system. if communist thought states that 'all forms of inequality will dissolve' wouldnt that mean money too....especially money! and as for armies. if there is 'collective ownership' why would there be a need for armies? wars start because of individual ownership.
didnt they mention everything about tvp in zeigeist 2?thought they did.
either way, im all for it. ive always been
nemesis700 1 year ago
@nemesis700 I see. But in order for something to be successful it has to have a workable plan, in all areas. Therefore it is not conducive to say TVP is "based on" Communistic thought or principles, bc unfortunately it just leaves out entirely 2much information. Also, I fear there r way 2many ppl that think they mentioned 'everything' about TVP in Zeitgeist II, but I hope not : ( Bc that is so far from the truth it's not even funny. I talked 2Jsickert about this. I was a skeptic after Zeitgeist>
TVPchallenge 1 year ago
@nemesis700 >I studied TVP model in detail over the last year, & that's when I found more & more holes that it did a good job of plugging. People have so many questions, so many curiosities, & so many misunderstandings. I'm no history expert myself, but one thing I do know a hell of a lot about is TVP. And I feel if we r 2get anywhere w/this, people must do the same b4 dismissing it, or jumping 2conclusions. There r tons more sources of info (besides Zeitgeist Cliffsnotes ;) lol - Check my page
TVPchallenge 1 year ago
i drew my conclusions from watching zeitgeist. i didnt see many, if any, differences with communism besides the super computer part running everything. but even in this i think there is a flaw. there will come a point when some people want something done. shouldnt we as a whole come to a conclusion as to how to deal with this? are we goin to abide by what a computer dictates? wouldnt this either lead to another type of governing structure?
ill check out the lecture on ya page
nemesis700 1 year ago
@nemesis700 Yeah, I wondered that too. There is an interesting part in there where Peter talks about how we can all participate & submit inventions, etc. It's awesome. Remember, it's not the computer "dictating" but that TVP requires that we all *at least* agree on using the scientific method 4the benefit of all. So the decision will not be "made" but "arrived at / calculated" by non-biased data. One cannot argue which invention is better, or which plant is better, science will tell us, while
TVPchallenge 1 year ago
lol if we all have to agree than that would be a communist trait. another unintended similarity i suppose lol...you watch south park? there's this one episode where cartman goes to the future. its similar to the whole 'science will tell us' part of tvp
im not a communist tho btw
nemesis700 1 year ago
@nemesis700 What a lot of people don't realize is, we all use the scientific method every day. Not only did it give us everything we have (inventions, etc.) but we use it every day just in making decisions & such. The scientific method falls right in line w/nature & how the earth operates, so 2disagree w/it is 2disagree w/our existence (hence the sh*t we're always finding ourselves in, lol)
TVPchallenge 1 year ago
oh i know.
but science nowadays does not supercede humans, if you get what i mean? and some humans have different morals and values to others. is the supercomputer goin to decide which is best for all, even if some people disagree? wont that be the subjugation of the minority? seems to me that we're goin to have reach some type of higher level of consciousness to achieve something like the venus project. and that means waiting for evolution. which will take a loooooooong time.
nemesis700 1 year ago
@nemesis700 @nemesis700 This is why the cybernated system doesn't deal w/morals & values. It just takes care of our biological & technological needs. Meaning, we can hv different opinions, different tastes (food, music, clothes, doesn't matter), but the cybernated system will determine how 2react 2environmental changes, natural disasters, equal resource availability, etc. U see, some ppl cannot 'disagree' w/those things, they r scientific & mathematical facts. If they just wan2 disagree 2b an
TVPchallenge 1 year ago
a society wit no laws and governance is not something that you can achieve by holding seminars and spreading the message of a different type of society. that type of society will mean in essence, a different type of 'people'. this isnt a change that comes in days, years, or even millennia. its something thats gradual. trying to do this in this millenium would cause chaos. as much as i would love to see this happen. modern day utopia is fantasy. dedicating ya life to this is a waste
nemesis700 1 year ago
@nemesis700 We don't have millennia. We will extinguish ourselves before then if we continue in this pattern. Therefore, NOT dedicating ur life to this is a waste.
TVPchallenge 1 year ago
@nemesis700 still factoring in the availability of all the earth's resources, and the population (meaning the carrying capacity of the earth - what it can handle.)
TVPchallenge 1 year ago
@nemesis700 3) Communism has money, banks, armies, police, prisons, charismatic personalities, social stratification, and is managed by appointed leaders.
4) To say u r for this "type of society" if it's "done right" is acknowledging a substantial difference already. Something being done "right" or "wrong" makes the difference b/w day & night. That is like saying 'N. America' is 'Africa' done right... they are completely different, though they have numerous obvious similarities.
TVPchallenge 1 year ago
i dont know where you got ya info about communism came from but thats not true. lol where you get that from?
communism is the facilitated through ALL (thats everyone) workers overthrowing the government and establishing a system where EVERYONE is equal and EVERYONE makes the decisions. the government is not 10 or 20 people....its EVERYONE....everyone on the planet.
nemesis700 1 year ago
@nemesis700 Are you serious?! Ok, I'm sorry, but I cannot just tell you there are 3 moons, and then when you tell me there's one, I say "I don't know where you got your facts from." Everything I just said about Communism is 100% true, & can be found in any article, including Wikipedia. Please look it up. It doesn't matter 'how many' ppl r in the gov't. The point is, there's still a government in Communism!! Hence the terms "communist government" "communist states" & "authoritarian governments."
TVPchallenge 1 year ago
no its not. you THINK its true, cuz people told you it was.
your confusing modern history's varations of communism with PURE communism. pure communism CANNOT exist if there's only ONE country thats communist. and communism is a mass movement of the lower classes against the elite with the outcome being a communist soceity. the soviet union was totalitarian. it might have had some attributes of communism but it was NOT communist. neither was any other country.
nemesis700 1 year ago
@nemesis700 Ok, well then ur just arguing semantics. U have2 acknowledge that ppl have no frame of reference regarding social systems, other than history itself. So if communism was attempted & failed, then that was the result of 'communism' as far as we r concerned. The bottom line is, it's primary goals, nor the *means of achieving those goals* (scientific method, balance w/nature, free energy etc.) r even remotely close 2 TVP, so u can compare them all u want, but that doesn't make them equal
TVPchallenge 1 year ago
you keep equating communism with past supposedly 'communist' countries. THEY WERE NOT COMMUNIST.
regardless communism wouldnt work in this global society which is hellbent on the monetary system.
communism states that technological advances would bring about the next type of society. it went from 'feudalism' to 'democratic capitalism'. this was because of the TECHNOLOGICAL breakthrough in the MEANS OF PRODUCTION........
nemesis700 1 year ago
@nemesis700 Again, ur arguing semantics. "Past supposedly 'communist' countries r what history & human beings refer 2 as 'communism' therefore, u must acknowledge that definition if u wish 2communicate accordingly w/other human beings. Ur using ur own definition of communism, which is fine, but dont expect ppl 2understand u. Otherwise, until u research TVP further, u can call it "The Pure Nemesis700 Communism, not past failed variations of Communism - Project" but do not call it Communism.
TVPchallenge 1 year ago
the definition of communism is laid out in Marx's works. you cant deny that countrys such as soviet union and china are false communists. theyre totalitarian. lol i said it before that communism cannot work in this gobal climate. again that is because of the monetary system as well as the different governments. technology will fascilitate the transition into a different form of society. isnt that what tvp is based on?....well so is communism partner!
nemesis700 1 year ago
@nemesis700 Another major difference is that Marxism clearly states that KM intended it 2be the final stages in society. TVP advocates the notion that it will never b a "final" anything, just a direction we need 2take toward better social system & RBE. I understand what ur saying, & we can argue semantics all day long b/w "pure communism" & "tested communism" but ur still not grasping TVP until u know everything there is 2know. So do urself (& us) a favor & read up! TVP is called TVP 4 a reason!
TVPchallenge 1 year ago
im not using my own definition lol ask any scholar and they will tell you that there has been no TRUE communist country.
why do you think USSR is constantly reffered to as totalitiarian? china is seen as a capitalist society. cuba too.
nemesis700 1 year ago
......now if the means of productions signify the end of an era in the way we produce than the next breakthrough will lead to another era. AUTOMATED MACHINERY is a MEANS OF PRODUCTION. now if some type of cyborg will be doing the work for us than that will mean a technological advance in the means of productions which marx had included his work.
nemesis700 1 year ago
@nemesis700 I understand ur allusions to the "means of production" but the fact that there was never a detailed description as to how communism was supposed 2function economically makes it monumentally different from TVP. And u still have not even touched on the environmental issue, which was NEVER part of Marxism. The end.
TVPchallenge 1 year ago
@nemesis700 They also still had laws, & military; you cannot deny those facts. To do so is to deny history, & to imagine Marxism to be something it wasn't, when it's all in plain writing. TVP uses "the scientific method" to *arrive* at conclusions for the benefit of all, not "everyone making political decisions together." There are no politics in TVP, just science & technology for our natural flourishment.
TVPchallenge 1 year ago
please excuse some of my grammatical errors in my previous and possibly future comments lol my eyes, fingers and brain sometimes dont like to work together.
by 'done right' i meant that there hopefully wont be some type of elite or individual leader callin all the shots. some type of futuristic autocratic fascist society. you know?
nemesis700 1 year ago
@nemesis700 Again, I see ur point here, I really do, but that is exactly why we're saying u cannot say it's "communism" or has "communist" thought. Due 2the fact that it has characteristics of various social systems, and lacks characteristics of those very same systems, it is a unique blend all on its own, and is therefore called TVP, and not something else. What else should we call it? Soci-Commi-Anarchi-Liberti-Resource-Humanist-Nature-Techno-Democracy-Worldly-Plan???
TVPchallenge 1 year ago
@TVPchallenge Great points, couldn't have said it better myself.
"What else should we call it? Soci-Commi-Anarchi-Liberti-Res ource-Humanist-Nature-Techno-D emocracy-Worldly-Plan???" Absolutely hilarious lol
moety2 1 year ago
what type of governing structure would there be in a tvp society?
nemesis700 1 year ago
@nemesis700 Ok nemesis, in all seriousness, you cannot call urself a TVP supporter, & then ASK what type of governing structure would exist in TVP. The cybernated system that manages our resources, & handles our production & distribution, w/out political interference, is the entire basis behind the existence & longevity of TVP. There will be no gov't & no human power or decision-making. Please watch Peter Joseph's "Where Are We Going" 4more information on how the cybernated system would work.
TVPchallenge 1 year ago
who will run this cybernated system?
nemesis700 1 year ago
@nemesis700 Watch the seminar!!! LOL
TVPchallenge 1 year ago
Comment removed
TVPchallenge 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@nemesis700 @nemesis700 spreading the idea that its modeled after seemingly "similar" social systems, places less weight on the very important & pertinent factors that are different. People need 2understand the dramatic differences between TVP & past failed social systems, not the similarities. The *differences* are what determines whether TVP is successful or not, and will determine its longevity into the future, as en ever-changing, & evolving model. It is not "absolute" like the others.
TVPchallenge 1 year ago
At your 19, what freedom do you think you have? The freedom of choosing - among a few people sponsored by and representing the interests of the same people that keep you ignorant - a leader, someone who makes decisions about your life for you? The freedom of pulling off as much money as possible so you can perpetually pay the debt that is supposed to never be paid off, and the freedom of having everyone else doing that to you in turn? The freedom of liking what private owners want you to like..?
Pectiniculus 2 years ago
The most wonderful freedom of not noticing these facts at all?? Please, do continue enjoying your programmed freedom.
Pectiniculus 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
programmed freedom?? Give me a break.
INSANEDESIGNER 2 years ago
Ridiculously wrong example. Even if having a 5000 square foot mansion with attached private beach is perfection for you, that would be reflecting a finite human demand. The fact that many people today have never thought of living in those conditions proves we don't need to aim for that. What we really need to aim for is being able to responsibly SHARE all of the resources and generate the technology necessary to expand the production of free goods. Resources are finite but enough.
Pectiniculus 2 years ago 3
You don't need to watch Zeitgeist to learn that natural resources in the world are enough to supply the basic needs of all the people in the world. It's just we have a money-based profit-oriented system that legally forces people to "rob" each other so they stay "in good terms" with each other (stay legit, not condemned) and keep the hierarchical social structure and the awful distribution of resources we have today. You don't have to watch Zeitgeist to learn that either. Resources are enough.
Pectiniculus 2 years ago 3
Which, frankly, just has to change. Sorry for hogging the comments on this vid...
PreCaut1on 2 years ago
Please leave a comment on my channel if you would like to discuss possible flaws of such an economy. I also want to hear how people are making others aware of this movement, as it benefits me and others that i am currently showing it to to know that people across the world agree with the need for change. It empowers people, and gives them hope. Also, as is evident with history, people sort of go with the the majority, which thus far has been to ignore this movement all together.
PreCaut1on 2 years ago
It is important that if you agree with the possibilities of this society proposed by Peter and Jacque, then you must educated yourself not only about its benefits, but also its weak points. No plan has the answers to every possible situation, therefore we must address the problems of such a society coming to fruition. Instead of posting a comment that says "I fully support this movement", look into ways to display this to others, and discuss all the faults it still has.
PreCaut1on 2 years ago
We (at least Americans) live in a fast paced, dog-eat-dog society where the individual is not heard unless they have the credentials that people relate with intelligence and knowledge. The fact is, though, that with the vast information available through the internet and the ability to self educate; it is not only possible that people not part of the huge colleges, politics, banks, and international relations can have an intelligent response to global problems; it's highly likely.
PreCaut1on 2 years ago
People are saying that this is idealistic, an impossible plan. But what you must realize is that by educating mass groups of people, by getting credible sources to agree and see the logic behind it, and by forming "Q/A" sessions to discuss: faults, how it would be started, how it would be funded(since we still live in a monetary system); we can ultimately change the direction of humanity toward a more sustainable future, one that allows human beings to enjoy their lives and flourish.
PreCaut1on 2 years ago
lol your the one whos afraid of sounding gay
viracet 2 years ago
Where can i download the whole movie ?
Illumatrix2 2 years ago
This might make me sound gay but I love his voice...
Don't judge me.
domrio 2 years ago 3
this man should be president!!
vote now!!!
trixster6d9 2 years ago