The God of this discussion values freedom over evil. Why is freedom more important than evil?
By the way - what freedom? We don't get to choose when we die. We don't get to decide where we are born. We don't get to choose our genetics. We don't get to choose our parents, Etc, Etc. This just indicates that god is not working in our (humans) best interests because it doesn't share our value system.
Great show. First time I've seen a video from your organization. Thanks for the breath of fresh air. It was a great change from a lot of the crap on you tube these days to hear someone one with actuall intelligence and reason.
men much smarter than i have tackled this question and have yet to present a decent argument to justify God's inaction. i don't see anyone in the near future reconciling God and the existence evil.
This is kind of lame actually the guy arguement is so weak against William Lane Criag, the point was if God had to remove evil and make everything good then there be no free will. I think this guy arguements are weak but I'm willing to listen on. God made the world good not perfect.
@coltharpnicholas Hmm don't know if your being ironic the first part but easy answers. Your right removal natural disasters wouldn't get rid of free will, and yes, God has removed evil before although not entirely because there were survivors that were spared. God was also just enough to warn everyone so what is the excuse? Our free will is limited to the extent that we shouldn't do it, doesn't mean we can't. So your looking at it the wrong way and misunderstanding... sigh...
@samuellis So God removed evil but not completely, eh? Stopping the Holocaust would have done that. It wouldn't get rid of all evil, but it would have been nice.
What I'm saying is that saying God doesn't "limit" our free will is no excuse. He already limits our free will. For example, I cannot kill you. If God put me in a position where I knew who you were, I could kill you. Putting me in a position where I don't is a limitation on my free will.
@coltharpnicholas Well I am really trying to see your arguement here but I just can't logically it doesn't make sense. Your arguement about the holocaust is actually working on my side, because your right it wouldn't have stopped evil, man is evil. There is no limit to your free will only containment, you are limited to what you can do, but free will is choosing what you will and will not do. You can kill me but it's against your morals, the law, Bible, and God. Simple...
As for how a god fits into this, that is irrelevant. My original point was that there are circumstances in which what seems like an atrocity can in fact be a net benefit.
"You're getting into the greatest good for the greatest number type stuff."
Correct.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. To cause the suffering or death of a large number of people so that a small number - let alone a single person - can benefit is obscenely immoral.
That said, the original situation has better alternatives. Such as finding the person guilty of intended geno-/terracide, and executing them.
It's hysterically funny how believers can just make up stories about the supernatural as though they were fact, and even speak for a deity and assume they know its character. Project much?
Here is one possible situation, Ashley. (I am an atheist, so I am not defending Craig.)
The child in question would have grown up to be a genetic engineer who falls victim to some doomsday cult and engineer a virus to wipe out huge numbers of people. But the rape causes them to instead commit suicide.
That would be a situation where the benefits outweigh the losses.
But it is so contrived that it does little for William Lame Craig.
@IZeromusI Lol, typical theist, fag? Are you a closet homo? Which God do you believe in stupid retard? On what do you base this belief? Make up your fucking mind, if you have one.
@IZeromusI "God Gave us free will which means free will to be good or evil, that does'nt make God evil it means he is plainly fair."--You're own doctrine is against the idea of freewill and God being all knowing removes freewill and even if freewill was a valid excuse, it doesn't answer the problem because if God is all loving, how'd his creation(freewill) be the source of hate and evil? So what scientists had faith, doesn't make their faith any more real than tooth fairies.
if divine reward makes up for everything, why don t we let go of all laws and just allow everyone to do everything!!! remember... heaven will make it all good : )
how can you know fullness without first being empty
ect. ect. ect. you get the point i' making
we need contrast in our lives to make our live more meaningful . how would we learn compassion with out someone who is suffering to show it too . what im trying to say is , if we all had a perfect life here never knowing pain of anykind we would be a spoiled people .as some here are those who are lack in those.
@notjustanything That's probably small comfort for the millions which suffer horribly each year, just so we can appreciate life. I mean, really? It's a revolting thought.
You persist in defining God/Christianity on your terms and with your rational. To effectively criticize both you must beat them on their ground.
Accordingly - Christian orthodoxy maintains that this world is ALREADY under judgement. Sin, evil acts, natural disasters are ALL signs of the impending doom. For us - it may be future - but from an eternal perspective it is already past. STOP thinking in a linear way. Orthodoxy is far more complicated than that and you weaken your position.
@rattrays He's defining the Christian God based off what Christians say. It doesn't matter if it already passed(even makes your God more evil because he didn't try to stop it before it happened), ignoring you have no scriptural support given God interacted with humans during their present life.
The "God has a plan" theory which is predicated on an all-powerful, all-knowing deity certainly works against the argument that we have free will--doesn't it? A truly all-powerful God should be able to alleviate suffering. Christians will frequently deride atheists as "moral relativists", but when it comes to the actions or inactions of God, they become moral relativists.
It is completely plausible to come up with a scenario in which a terrible evil occurs but a greater thing comes of it. Saying that he can't be shown proof is one of the most idiotic things I've heard from these guys.
A child is raped.
Another person who wants to indulge in child rape sees the damage it has caused, and decides to live a life of charity.
How small does your mind have to be to think that no good thing can ever come of a bad one?
I agree on your point. But why has there to be a rape at all? He could have made it that there are no bad things.
Okay, he did it once, but he took it away. Why? To punish Adam and Eve? Fine. But why punish their children? The raped child did nothing wrong to deserve his wrath.
I should make clear that I don't believe in the myths of the old testament, so I don't believe there were two people who lived in paradise and were punished when they ate a fruit. That said...
Are you asking why God made people capable of sinning as opposed to perfectly good? In my view, making us with the inability to sin is tantamount to negating free will. Free will allows us to be self-determining. It is more important than any sin that could come from choice.
I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at. Is the morality of the old testament absolutely correct? That's pretty obvious...no. It requires you kill a child that backtalks and suggests slavery as alright. Are you claiming that the problem of evil, theodicy, includes pre-marital sex and alcohol consumption? I'm not sure what you're comment has to do with the problem of evil
Im stating that there doesnt have to be "evil" that hurts others, to punish people.
So basicly, he could have taken away sin, that is negative for other people, and kept the possibility to do all the other sins, to still give the people free choice.
Soooo, there should never have to come a good thing from a bad one. Also, in your first example, I do not see it as a good thing that comes from evil. I see it as a evil thing that could have been avoided in the first place.
Sure, but if there is an omnipotent god then such a god could figure out a way that no children would be raped. If you concede that God is not omnipotent, then your argument makes sense otherwise it does not.
If there is an omnipotent god who allows children to be raped, then that god is either indifferent or malicious. Either way such a god does not deserve to be worshipped.
the problem is not good vs bad the probem is what we do to prevent enfringements on peoples will helpful or not .the problem is atheists have no religion so they stanp on enlightenment so what...ill tell you theres comman morals but when you take away peoples joy to be intellectual correct becauase you dont believe then your worthless atheists believe they will shut of like a machine ,im not a christian but aithiests have no answers they just hate religions extremists
You're right, atheism isn't a replacement for religion, you don't come to atheism out of hopes that it will make you feel better or to make a covenant with some God of Science. You come to atheism out of honesty and acceptance. This in turn makes situations like the ones brought up in this video easier to understand, did you notice how far the Christian writing the letter had to strain to fit reality into his little box? Let reality become the box, and even then poke little holes in it.
you are right about one thing...I do hate religious extremists. I don't hate them just because they believe in adult fairy tales, but for their relentless demands that every body else believe in the same fairy tales, that any progress made that results in knowledge that challenges their fairy tale be erased and for their intolerance and hatred for anybody who is not of their belief.
If God has morally sufficient reasons to allow evil then there is no "problem" of evil. God and evil's coexistence would be logically compatible. I don't think anyone can show that God cannot have morally sufficient reasons to allow evil. Also see /watch?v=EPqSrnR6VtI
Yeah not buying that if you believe in god then you are morally right ....I mean this model breaks down with people like Ted Haggard really , "yes I did the CRYSTAL METH of the back of that MALE PROSTITUTE ...but I did not...er inhale ..."(all the capital letters indicate sin ) and you want me to believe that all God lovers are Moral...I don't believe in God don't mean to say that I am any less likely than you are to do Crystal Meth cos I had to battle with my sexuality.
If you agree, then you are subscribing to absolute morality. Where there exists acts of behavior that are absolutly bad or good.
Under relative morality, there can not be a "problem of evil" because evil does not absolutly exist, it can only subjectively exist. Any and all acts within relative morality can be considered morally good...even child rape.
No one has ever been able to really refute the problem of evil, it's been thousands of years yet they can't! There is no way out, it's a) God is evil b) He is not all-powerfull c) He doen't even exist!
@Sqirril Because he wanted people to have 'free will' which of course means doing 'what you want' rather than 'for a reason.' Because people do things randomly without any reason, right? No, every action has a cause, and even if people were random, they would have no control over their actions. Free will is an oxymoron, and if there is a god he is to blame for setting the universe in motion, upon which every event depends.
@Sqirril apparently something about free will, if i could make my child at least be a reasonable person when i know they are going to be no good and hurt people i would.
you are truley brainwashed. these guys are not practicing satanism because they are not gullible enough to believe in a devil or a god for that matter just because an ancient book says its true
Kinda like "Complentarity of Good and Evil".Without the notion of Evil you'd have no comparison bases to understand what really Good is.
And the same goes for anything not ethically bad but stil bad in a way, kinda like tasting something bitter helping people give more meaning to something sweet ; Hard work giving more pleasure to the reward and stuff like that. ( Although sometimes the reward doesn't taste all that "rewarding". )
@jmhjmh5 what sons get incinerated for being themselves?
gleehmee 5 months ago
The God of this discussion values freedom over evil. Why is freedom more important than evil?
By the way - what freedom? We don't get to choose when we die. We don't get to decide where we are born. We don't get to choose our genetics. We don't get to choose our parents, Etc, Etc. This just indicates that god is not working in our (humans) best interests because it doesn't share our value system.
sigmata0 8 months ago
Great show. First time I've seen a video from your organization. Thanks for the breath of fresh air. It was a great change from a lot of the crap on you tube these days to hear someone one with actuall intelligence and reason.
1969jmac 8 months ago
men much smarter than i have tackled this question and have yet to present a decent argument to justify God's inaction. i don't see anyone in the near future reconciling God and the existence evil.
ikanipo 10 months ago
FREE WILL! FREE WILL! FREE WILL! the theist screams about the problem of evil.
rbolo29 10 months ago
This is kind of lame actually the guy arguement is so weak against William Lane Criag, the point was if God had to remove evil and make everything good then there be no free will. I think this guy arguements are weak but I'm willing to listen on. God made the world good not perfect.
samuellis 11 months ago
@samuellis The removal of natural disasters wouldn't get rid of our free will.
ALSO, God has removed evil before. Remember Noah's Ark and Sodom and Gemorrha?
ALSO, our free will is already limited. For example, we can't kill each other with just our thoughts. That's a limit on our free will.
coltharpnicholas 11 months ago
@coltharpnicholas Hmm don't know if your being ironic the first part but easy answers. Your right removal natural disasters wouldn't get rid of free will, and yes, God has removed evil before although not entirely because there were survivors that were spared. God was also just enough to warn everyone so what is the excuse? Our free will is limited to the extent that we shouldn't do it, doesn't mean we can't. So your looking at it the wrong way and misunderstanding... sigh...
samuellis 11 months ago
@samuellis So God removed evil but not completely, eh? Stopping the Holocaust would have done that. It wouldn't get rid of all evil, but it would have been nice.
What I'm saying is that saying God doesn't "limit" our free will is no excuse. He already limits our free will. For example, I cannot kill you. If God put me in a position where I knew who you were, I could kill you. Putting me in a position where I don't is a limitation on my free will.
coltharpnicholas 11 months ago
@coltharpnicholas Well I am really trying to see your arguement here but I just can't logically it doesn't make sense. Your arguement about the holocaust is actually working on my side, because your right it wouldn't have stopped evil, man is evil. There is no limit to your free will only containment, you are limited to what you can do, but free will is choosing what you will and will not do. You can kill me but it's against your morals, the law, Bible, and God. Simple...
samuellis 11 months ago
there can't be mountains without valleys
guywithmac 1 year ago
Why does God need to advance the story through a plan? As an omnipotent being, couldn't he just create the Earth at its end point?
He sounds like a really bored D+D player to me..
TheCelticNinja 1 year ago
I went what? You have lost me.
As for how a god fits into this, that is irrelevant. My original point was that there are circumstances in which what seems like an atrocity can in fact be a net benefit.
That is all.
1RadicalOne 1 year ago
"You're getting into the greatest good for the greatest number type stuff."
Correct.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. To cause the suffering or death of a large number of people so that a small number - let alone a single person - can benefit is obscenely immoral.
That said, the original situation has better alternatives. Such as finding the person guilty of intended geno-/terracide, and executing them.
1RadicalOne 1 year ago
It's hysterically funny how believers can just make up stories about the supernatural as though they were fact, and even speak for a deity and assume they know its character. Project much?
P0weredByPie 1 year ago
Here is one possible situation, Ashley. (I am an atheist, so I am not defending Craig.)
The child in question would have grown up to be a genetic engineer who falls victim to some doomsday cult and engineer a virus to wipe out huge numbers of people. But the rape causes them to instead commit suicide.
That would be a situation where the benefits outweigh the losses.
But it is so contrived that it does little for William Lame Craig.
1RadicalOne 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@IZeromusI Lol, typical theist, fag? Are you a closet homo? Which God do you believe in stupid retard? On what do you base this belief? Make up your fucking mind, if you have one.
HybridD91 1 year ago
@IZeromusI "God Gave us free will which means free will to be good or evil, that does'nt make God evil it means he is plainly fair."--You're own doctrine is against the idea of freewill and God being all knowing removes freewill and even if freewill was a valid excuse, it doesn't answer the problem because if God is all loving, how'd his creation(freewill) be the source of hate and evil? So what scientists had faith, doesn't make their faith any more real than tooth fairies.
HybridD91 1 year ago
if divine reward makes up for everything, why don t we let go of all laws and just allow everyone to do everything!!! remember... heaven will make it all good : )
....lol
kapa1611 1 year ago
How can I became Atheist? Do I have to pay any dollar $ for the leader like we pay for pastor? Please let me know.
Qulabican 1 year ago
how can you know happiness with out sadness
how can know prosperity with out poverty
how can you know fullness without first being empty
ect. ect. ect. you get the point i' making
we need contrast in our lives to make our live more meaningful . how would we learn compassion with out someone who is suffering to show it too . what im trying to say is , if we all had a perfect life here never knowing pain of anykind we would be a spoiled people .as some here are those who are lack in those.
notjustanything 1 year ago
@notjustanything That's probably small comfort for the millions which suffer horribly each year, just so we can appreciate life. I mean, really? It's a revolting thought.
GrimJackal 1 year ago
You persist in defining God/Christianity on your terms and with your rational. To effectively criticize both you must beat them on their ground.
Accordingly - Christian orthodoxy maintains that this world is ALREADY under judgement. Sin, evil acts, natural disasters are ALL signs of the impending doom. For us - it may be future - but from an eternal perspective it is already past. STOP thinking in a linear way. Orthodoxy is far more complicated than that and you weaken your position.
rattrays 1 year ago
@rattrays He's defining the Christian God based off what Christians say. It doesn't matter if it already passed(even makes your God more evil because he didn't try to stop it before it happened), ignoring you have no scriptural support given God interacted with humans during their present life.
HybridD91 1 year ago
The "God has a plan" theory which is predicated on an all-powerful, all-knowing deity certainly works against the argument that we have free will--doesn't it? A truly all-powerful God should be able to alleviate suffering. Christians will frequently deride atheists as "moral relativists", but when it comes to the actions or inactions of God, they become moral relativists.
DandAinTac 1 year ago
jesus. an atheist show in TX? I'm sure you're REAL popular out there. ;)
Good work with the show, my friend.
vancecooley22 1 year ago
'soul making theodicy'
look it up
RationalTheism 2 years ago
In regards to the second point...
It is completely plausible to come up with a scenario in which a terrible evil occurs but a greater thing comes of it. Saying that he can't be shown proof is one of the most idiotic things I've heard from these guys.
A child is raped.
Another person who wants to indulge in child rape sees the damage it has caused, and decides to live a life of charity.
How small does your mind have to be to think that no good thing can ever come of a bad one?
barifkin31 2 years ago
@barifkin31
I agree on your point. But why has there to be a rape at all? He could have made it that there are no bad things.
Okay, he did it once, but he took it away. Why? To punish Adam and Eve? Fine. But why punish their children? The raped child did nothing wrong to deserve his wrath.
supergamwich 2 years ago
I should make clear that I don't believe in the myths of the old testament, so I don't believe there were two people who lived in paradise and were punished when they ate a fruit. That said...
Are you asking why God made people capable of sinning as opposed to perfectly good? In my view, making us with the inability to sin is tantamount to negating free will. Free will allows us to be self-determining. It is more important than any sin that could come from choice.
barifkin31 2 years ago
Yes, but sin is something else than causing harm to others.
Sex before marriage was/is considered a sin. You odnt hurt anyone. Drinking is/was a sin. You only hurt yourself.
Rape on the other hand...
supergamwich 2 years ago
I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at. Is the morality of the old testament absolutely correct? That's pretty obvious...no. It requires you kill a child that backtalks and suggests slavery as alright. Are you claiming that the problem of evil, theodicy, includes pre-marital sex and alcohol consumption? I'm not sure what you're comment has to do with the problem of evil
barifkin31 2 years ago
Im stating that there doesnt have to be "evil" that hurts others, to punish people.
So basicly, he could have taken away sin, that is negative for other people, and kept the possibility to do all the other sins, to still give the people free choice.
Soooo, there should never have to come a good thing from a bad one. Also, in your first example, I do not see it as a good thing that comes from evil. I see it as a evil thing that could have been avoided in the first place.
supergamwich 2 years ago
I guess Im not making myself clear enough, so Ill stop bothering you x-)
supergamwich 2 years ago
Comment removed
gibbytravis 2 years ago
Comment removed
gibbytravis 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
To barifkin31:
Sure, but if there is an omnipotent god then such a god could figure out a way that no children would be raped. If you concede that God is not omnipotent, then your argument makes sense otherwise it does not.
If there is an omnipotent god who allows children to be raped, then that god is either indifferent or malicious. Either way such a god does not deserve to be worshipped.
gibbytravis 2 years ago
the problem is not good vs bad the probem is what we do to prevent enfringements on peoples will helpful or not .the problem is atheists have no religion so they stanp on enlightenment so what...ill tell you theres comman morals but when you take away peoples joy to be intellectual correct becauase you dont believe then your worthless atheists believe they will shut of like a machine ,im not a christian but aithiests have no answers they just hate religions extremists
ninjafretshadow 2 years ago
@ninjafretshadow
I think EVERYONE hates religious extremists and fundamentalists.
Atheists say they do not know. Religion says for a fact god exists without proof. Thats not fact, thats called faith.
Xamaza 2 years ago
You're right, atheism isn't a replacement for religion, you don't come to atheism out of hopes that it will make you feel better or to make a covenant with some God of Science. You come to atheism out of honesty and acceptance. This in turn makes situations like the ones brought up in this video easier to understand, did you notice how far the Christian writing the letter had to strain to fit reality into his little box? Let reality become the box, and even then poke little holes in it.
Mercurybath 2 years ago
you are right about one thing...I do hate religious extremists. I don't hate them just because they believe in adult fairy tales, but for their relentless demands that every body else believe in the same fairy tales, that any progress made that results in knowledge that challenges their fairy tale be erased and for their intolerance and hatred for anybody who is not of their belief.
1n354a 2 years ago
If God has morally sufficient reasons to allow evil then there is no "problem" of evil. God and evil's coexistence would be logically compatible. I don't think anyone can show that God cannot have morally sufficient reasons to allow evil. Also see /watch?v=EPqSrnR6VtI
awesomewelles90 2 years ago
I just happened to be the 666th viewer... haha...
theused228 2 years ago 2
Yeah I agree. There are many good refutations of the "problem" of evil.
awesomewelles90 2 years ago
Absolute morality requires a transcendental moral agent to exist, like the Christian God.
frostykind 2 years ago
@frostykind
Yeah not buying that if you believe in god then you are morally right ....I mean this model breaks down with people like Ted Haggard really , "yes I did the CRYSTAL METH of the back of that MALE PROSTITUTE ...but I did not...er inhale ..."(all the capital letters indicate sin ) and you want me to believe that all God lovers are Moral...I don't believe in God don't mean to say that I am any less likely than you are to do Crystal Meth cos I had to battle with my sexuality.
IHATEATHEIST2 2 years ago
Is child rape absolutly bad?
If you agree, then you are subscribing to absolute morality. Where there exists acts of behavior that are absolutly bad or good.
Under relative morality, there can not be a "problem of evil" because evil does not absolutly exist, it can only subjectively exist. Any and all acts within relative morality can be considered morally good...even child rape.
frostykind 2 years ago
well... if god forced us not to do evil wouldnt that take our free will away that he gave us?
TsukasaAn 2 years ago
No one has ever been able to really refute the problem of evil, it's been thousands of years yet they can't! There is no way out, it's a) God is evil b) He is not all-powerfull c) He doen't even exist!
END OF STORY!
PullThePlugOnFaith 2 years ago 45
@PullThePlugOnFaith answer (C) he doesn't exist is the right one!
FallofDarkness55 9 months ago
child rape creates antichrist creates the end of the world for christians ... that my though on child rape
dessanzyhe 2 years ago
It's god's game and christian are sadly willing to play it.
clipsryan 2 years ago
Why not just fix people and make them not evil.
Sqirril 2 years ago 45
@Sqirril Because he wanted people to have 'free will' which of course means doing 'what you want' rather than 'for a reason.' Because people do things randomly without any reason, right? No, every action has a cause, and even if people were random, they would have no control over their actions. Free will is an oxymoron, and if there is a god he is to blame for setting the universe in motion, upon which every event depends.
feedtherich 8 months ago
@Sqirril apparently something about free will, if i could make my child at least be a reasonable person when i know they are going to be no good and hurt people i would.
sailornaruto39 8 months ago
you are truley brainwashed. these guys are not practicing satanism because they are not gullible enough to believe in a devil or a god for that matter just because an ancient book says its true
thebuttonsonmykeyboa 2 years ago
in this world, good things and bad things happen. we won't appreciate sweetness without bitterness. :/
williamcheah 2 years ago
Kinda like "Complentarity of Good and Evil".Without the notion of Evil you'd have no comparison bases to understand what really Good is.
And the same goes for anything not ethically bad but stil bad in a way, kinda like tasting something bitter helping people give more meaning to something sweet ; Hard work giving more pleasure to the reward and stuff like that. ( Although sometimes the reward doesn't taste all that "rewarding". )
rpaslux 2 years ago
lol good shit
HayteStreet 2 years ago