Is this tax progressive or regressive?Here is the quote from one of the Beacon Hill treatises on the AFT site:
"The key result of the foregoing discussion is that it matters fundamentally how one frames the discussion of the distributional effects of the FairTax. When people are sorted by expenditure per capita, the FairTax is progressive; when they are sorted by income per capita, it is regressive."
Those who undertand what this means now understand what a bad idea the "Fair" Tax is.
Read tiny url 593htl . It is a link to supporters' own research. The important part to read is page 30 on, "Appendix: Households’ Well-Being under the FairTax", in which they clearly state that according to their research those making from $15,000 to $150,000 a year would on average pay MORE in taxes under the "Fair" Tax than now. They try and fudge around this with what they call "income mobility", however Table 13 makes it clear--that mobility is into poverty-- and they call that a positive.
Again, there is no debate if one accepts Fair Tax org's own research-- under this horrible tax, those making from $15,000 to $150,000 a year would on average pay more federal taxes than they do now, and those making more than $150,000 would pay less. See tinyurl 593htl, page 30 on, particularly Table 13 years 7-8 and 15-16 to see the egregious fudging they do to try and make it seem that the middleclasses would be better off paying more in taxes. Also see Table 5 to see who reaps the rewards.
everyone is eligible for the prebate EXCEPT for illegal immigrants... and there you go, if they are illegal, the fair tax makes a sort of natural repellent to illegal immigration
When you are charged with any crime you have the right to be innocent until proven guilty... unless the IRS charges you in which case you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent.
Fight the IRS by fighting income tax. When there is no income tax, there is no IRS and our rights remain in tact.
Aly, EVERY household in America receives the Prebate payment. ONLY those in the country ILLEGALLY could not receive the Prebate.
The Prebate payment is the same and is based ONLY on the number of Legal Residents residing in the household.
Just like today's system EXEMPTS from tax the first Income we earn per year, so too the FairTax exempts the first SPENDING we do. The Prebate payment makes it so no one has to track it, no tax forms to file.
The answer to her question is that the FairTax repeals all other taxes. So, when those go away, prices will come down. Then the FairTax is added on and you're right back to where you were.
Example: today you buy a DVD player for $100. Pass the FairTax and that price will drop to about $77 because the embedded taxes go away. The FairTax then puts $23 on the price and you're back to $100. Nothing has changed, except you get to keep all of your paycheck instead of the gov't stealing it.
Remember also, The FairTax Bill is a "closed" Bill. It can't be changed until it is implemented. And then, it requires a Super Majority to make any changes to it afterwards. And WE THE PEOPLE won't let that happen unless they want to LOWER the rate.
EVERYbody gets the Prebate! That is why it is called the FairTax Plan. you might want to read the book again, It is very simple, Even the liberalist of liberals would see that it benifits the poorist the most and the middle class greatly and even the Evil Wealthy business owner can consitrate the effort it takes to comply with the IRS and grow their business and create more jobs to help the middle class and poor to have jobs and not be so poor or even middle class! READ not jus clance.
the sales tax increase will not change the price of goods substantially it will get rid of embedded taxes that are hidden in the price of goods then once you add the new sales tax there is very little difference
Prices will not rise with the FairTax. When the income tax is removed, prices will drop due to competition. This has always happened in the past. Ask any economics student. Profits stay steady at 5 to 8 percent. That's the beauty of capitalism. The poor will pay no taxes, due to the prebate. MORE people will be
paying taxes because illegals and criminals will pay. 250 billion dollars will be eliminated from the collection overhead.
How many times do I have to explain this. Only consumers pay taxes. Corporations just forward taxes to their customers. When the income tax is removed, the cost of production will lower costs (always has, and always will). When the FairTax is added, prices will return right back where they were. There will be no rise in prices. Meanwhile, your take-home pay will increase.
Are you sure about middle class families not being eligible for the prebates? I think you got that part wrong. According to my reading, all working families would be eligible for prebates up to the poverty level. Please let me know if I missed something.
There won't be a dramatic increase in taxes due to the Fair Tax. The competitive marketplace will keep prices down, and, the fact that their won't be any more taxes on business will mean that the extra $.23 will be rolled into the current price of goods. This may not happen right away, but the businesses that try to rip off the consuming public won't survive. To put it as simply as possible, no more business taxes will mean that businesses can lower price to compensate for the extra 23% tax.
@fugstik I believe that the only truely fair tax would be, = Everyone gets a bill for the same foler amount and is expected to pay that amount, But you and I and everyone else knows dat aint never gonna happen, This is the next best thing.
Everyone's eligible for the prebate. It's that simple. The prebate is set based only on household size, @ 23% of the poverty rate. A single mom making $19k or a billionaire gets the same check (assuming same household size).
Kay Zwerling from KSCO am 1080 in Santa Cruz does a great commentary on the Fari Tax that just repeated, you can find it on the KSCO page under her archives.... worth listening to. There is also a text of her comments.
The prebate pays the rich, poor, and middle-class all in the same fashion. Luxury items will be taxed heavily, yes, but that isn't a bad thing IMO.
I'm fairly certain that a middle-class earner will save more money under the FAIRTAX system as long as they spend reasonably. However, this scenario you elude to is a very real concern because Americans (for the most part) live and spend above their means.
C'mon UGA! REREAD chapters 5 and 9. Not only do all households receive a prebate each month for "basic household necessities" based on income and size but as you'll REREAD in chapter 5, due to the competitive nature of our market economy the "drastic increase in sales tax" would be undermined. That is to say, with the elimination of the current embedded taxes of roughly 22% that we all already pay, Americans are likely to to see a leveling or even reduction in the retail cost of consumer goods.
Aly, I'm glad you're interested in the FairTax, and thank you for submitting the question. Someone must have confused you by saying something to the effect that "those living under the poverty level will receive a rebate to offset the taxes paid on essentials." The fact is that the rebate (or "pre-bate" as I like to call it because it is received at the beginning of each month, prior to spending) is available to ALL households, regardless of income level, and is based on household size.
@blummedia, They are basing the percentage on a tax-neutral program. Dollar for dollar federal tax neutral. To the second part of your question; what stops them from increasing Income Tax to 70, 80, 90 percent right now? Nothing stops them from doing that now.
Technically your right. Nothing in the bill could prevent politicians from raising the rate. That will be up to us Americans. Raising the rate would tax everyone more. The fairtax in making tax collection more transparent may help prevent politicians from raping us blindly.
@dtvgmedia I understand your position and we the people still have the power to vote these bums out.... it would be easier if EVERYONE PAID, they'd more likely pay attention.
I'm still waiting to see a reduction in spending for once in my lifetime.
@blummedia , The bill sets the rate at 23% inclusive. WE prevent them from raising it, by voting them out when they try. What's stopping them from raising the income tax?
@blummedia How about a 35% tax on your income? Are you more comfortable with that?
Assume we are currently under the FT system. If you are spending more money on sales tax than you are saving on your income.... there is clearly a problem with your spending habits.
@scenesonn The government should take no more than 10% of anyones income, then a fair tax is not an "income" tax and I don't believe the government was given the power to tax or take a free Citizens property at gunpoint. How come I can figure out how to run a government with 10%?
Correct, I thought we had already established fair tax is not an income tax... It actually abolishes the income tax, believe it or not.
Well, a government is run on money gathered from taxation. The aim is to curb government spending, not eliminate it all together. Someone's gotta fund restructuring projects and national defense.
@scenesonn Its 30% look it up. Im poor I like it the poor tax payers would get $520 a month to spend instead of a tax check at the end of the year. I'm down with that who wouldn't be? Plus no more playstation, X-box life kids would play sports more! I raise my kids to play sports and not video games and abunch of stuff they dont need. Also though if someone does pass this meaning the GOP that must not get a penny from taxes for spending on there party and all charities and churchs need taxed..
@blummedia , my honest answer is that the electorate are morons. We Americans are not NEARLY engaged, informed or aware of the dangerous, nefarious nature of politicians and the coming consequences of their criminally irresponsible fiscal behavior.
These names are all the same person. This guy just spams every Fair tax debate on you tube.
He is just too stupid and arrogant to think that everyone goes around calling each other Retard, Moron, Dumb fuck or uses hoax and farce in the same sentence all the time.
Aly, good question. Most of us pay sales taxes to our State comptroller for items included in the Tax Base. Most states EXCLUDE services from state sales tax.
Under the FairTax proposal, every individual, business and federal/state/local government entity pay sales tax on ALL products AND services, no exceptions.
This results in a tax decrease for the lowest and highest income levels accompanied by a drastic INCREASE for middle income earners.
@Hithard177 Dumb fuck -- no idiot, the moment you try to tax every state, every city, for every dime the spend, you dumb fuck, they will not pay it. You wont be able to collect it -- got that dumb fuck.
Cities and states wont fucking pay this huge tax you fucking idiot. The military wont pay it, retard.
But FT math is based on them all paying it, retard. Got that you fucking idiot? The money won't be coming in retard.
@FreeLunchTax Hey, I'm AGAINST the FairTax - I clarified for the young lady that IF implemented it would adversely impact the middle class.
I agree that taxing state and local government (and federal) is an insane proposition. I'm not dumb, or a retard or an idiot, so please don't jump to conclusions.
Can't you make your point without using personal attacks and such vile language, or is that too intellectually challenging for you?
Midnight - you aren't here to educate me? No shit dumb fuck, since you are an idiot. Im here to tell your dumb ass FT is a hoax, literally a hoax, a farce.
No corporations support it, though it would get rid of ALL their taxes?? Why arent they on board dumb fuck? In fact, why has your few "leaders" backed totally off of this magic wand?
Cause it's bullshit you retard. Cause it's a fucking farce. You would need a 90% sales tax, dumb fuck, to replace all other taxes, idiot. Not 23.
the prebate doesnt do shit if you have cancer, or your child does, or other health issues. Your tax on a major health problem could be 50,000 or 100,000 -- just in taxes you fucking idiot.
Your language shows your lack of knowledge on the subject. With the "Fair Tax" prices end up the same as they are now. Just look at your cell phone bill, you now pay about 40% in gov. taxes. that would go down to just 23%. There are hidden taxes in every facet of this country, the "Fair Tax" eliminates all hidden taxes. So products will end up cheaper or the same + you get 100% of your paycheck not 75-85%. WOW!
midnight dumb fuck -- sorry idiot. The Fairtax leaders themselves backed off tht insane shit years ago --- and they backed off that "keep your whole paycheck" shit too.
Infact, the Fairtax leaders have backed off it all. It's a hoax, a farce, and they know it. The LEADERS know its bullshit, cause they made the bullshit up.
No one will get a prebate -- cause the whole plan is a farce, a hoax, a pile of shit.
I'm sure this kind of rhetoric worked in school. Scream, yell, and call names to drown out the other side. This is a forum, people can actually read & investigate the veracity of each response.
So here we are. The Fair Tax, the House Resolution on the floor of the congress, has not changed, no one has backed off on the wording it is the same as it was last year & the year before. ? why do you support our current system do you work for the IRS? Or you just are truly afraid of change.
Nothing has changed? Dumb fuck -- nothing is going on idiot. You fucks have NEVER asked for a hearing under oath, NEVER got support from corporations, NEVER explained how the fuck every city county and state will pay huge taxes.
Nor dumb fuck have you explained things like how a very high tax rate would effect new home and car sales -- which are taxed.
But since its pure fucking hoax -- don't worry. FT leaders are not serious about this shit anyway
I'm not here to educate you, Its good you have questions, that's good. It means your now open to learning. I didn't even have to call you childish names. You may actually get past your fears & programming. So what you need to do is read my other comments about embedded taxes. I have already answered you. You just need to get past the anger name calling & just learn. Someday when your older I hope this will be a moot discussion. Good luck, maybe you won't come off so ignorant the next time.
cap you dont even know your own pretend plan. Under Farce tax - everyone gets the prebate dumb fuck.
But its all a hoax, dumb ass, its a farce - their own "leaders" know its pure fucking bullshit - notice how they dare not to have hearing on it, in 13 years dumb ass?
Why not? Because its a fucking hoax you idiot -- its balderdash, double talk, they know its silly shit. The tax rate would have to be 60-90% dumb fuck -- to replace all other taxes. They know people would shit.
Dumb fuck -- Im not for our tax code as it is, retard. We need a whole new system.
But Fairtax you fucking idiot, is a fucking farce. It's own leaders know its a farce, they are not trying to pass it retard.
Fairtax is a farce, you dumb fuck. No one is trying to pass it. It's own sponsors will never fucking vote for it. Its a hoax, dumb fuck, a farce. It's not a serious plan.
So you retards pretend you can make the government pay itself a huge SALES tax??
Why not make it pay itself a huge INCOME tax - and see how that fucking works.
No other fucking nation on FUCKING earth pretends the FUCKING government can pay itself HUGE fucking sales taxes.
Fucking Fairtax is a fucking hoax - they arent fucking serious about it. They know their own fucking plan is fucking bunch of shit. Its a farce, its all bullshit.
Gee, you know, I've never actually had a "face- to- face" with a socialist before. I mean, you know that we have to reduce this country to third world status as soon as possible. We have to make sure that we are weak and pathetic as we can get so that the govenment can stay in power as long as possible. Uncle Joe and uncle Karl would be proud of you.
Here is a fucking clue. ... if you can make the government pay itself a huge SALES tax -- why the FUCK can't you make it pay an INCOME tax to itself?
You got that dumb fucks? its just as fucking crazy. It's bullshit - its a hoax -- its a farce. They aren't serioius about passing this plan - they are lying to your dumb asses.
You know, I think you're right. The gov't should just go ahead and confiscate all funds and give everyone what they think they need when they apply to get it. That way everyone would be equal, nobody would have to pay anything, and we can all stand around our huts holding hands and singing Kumbaya. I have the actual House bill on my computer. It's truly a pity that your job as a tax lobbyist prevents you from actually understanding what it's truly about.
So, FlyMe, I can only assume that you so thoroughly enjoy having your paycheck taken away that you voluntarily donate the rest of it. After all, everyone knows that the government knows WAY better how to spend your money than you do, right? I mean, I know that I certainly don't want to keep a whole lot more of the money I earn. I enjoy having my earnings given to someone who doesn't plan on working. Try doing something new. Read the book. You might gain something new. Knowledge.
The book is bullshit. Its a farce. Its fucking nonsense. Got that? It's a crock of shit.
Read page 148 for example -- "the federal government will become a MAJOR taxpayer"
So will state and local governments -- all major taxpayers. Are you fucking NUTS? Just have the GOVERNMENET pay ITSELF huge taxes -- and count that as income?
Its FUCKING INSANE SHIT -- its a hoax, its bullshit.
Studies -- what fucking studies are you fucking talking about?
YOu mean those pieces of shit they call studies. Gesus what a dumb fuck.
THose arent studies dumb fuck -- they are commercials. They start with the assumpmtion Fairtax works - then tells you how great it is that fairtax works.
Study my ass.
Does Fairtax work? Fuck no. Its a massive tax on every city and every state. Why the fuck hide that?
They hide it cause its fucking bullshit. They know its bullshit.
Everyone (including the middle class and poor) would get a PREbate at the beginning of each month to cover what government figures already say is the poverty level of necessary goods consumption (they send you money to cover the taxes on basic needs) It all basically means NO tax burden to be felt for those making below the poverty level living on their most basic needs. No other plan covers that and still brings money to the feds
That money doesn't come out of thin air, it comes back to the country from all the outsourced and expatriated money that's floating around the currencies of other countries. Also, the "insanely high tax is the exact amount of tax that's already paid out, just not hidden throughout production and distribution processes. you clearly don't understand the fairtax, or how it works
I know all about your idiot fucking embedded tax crap. Doesn't make a fucking bit of difference you fucking idiot.
The government can not fucking pay itself 1.5 trillion in sales taxes -- no matter what happened in your make believe world of pre-fairtax days. It doesn't fucking matter.
Suppose the country starts TODAY you dumb fuck -- and you want this dumb ass tax system that gets most of the money FROM the government.
Its dumber than dog shit you idiot. Its fucking insane shit.
If you really truly READ the book then you wouldn't be asking the question! You can not possibly show me where it says in the book or in the bill that ANYONE does not get the PREBATE because IT ISN'T THERE! EVERYONE is eligible for it, not just the poor as you assume. When you read something, it's important to UNDERSTAND it as well.
No -- you DONT understand the main concept. You read this book -- you read where they are going to make the government pay ITSELF a tax and count that as income -- and you are too stupid to question such crap?
Hello dumb ass -- get a clue.
Thats just ONE thing - but even idiots should spot that.
You retards see page 148 "the federal government ITSELF will bome a MAJOR taxpayer"
Hello you dumb ass suckers - that was your first clue.
Hey butt face, the government already pays embedded taxes. The book says the gov will "become a major tax payer" because the 23% sales tax will actually be called a tax. Embedded taxes are not called taxes because they're not added to the price of a product, they're already included in the price by the maker of that product. Embedded tax is a HIDDEN tax that everyone, even the gov pays today. You are so full of crap.
clearly you decided not to read the parts of the book that explain that we (the government included) already pay the taxes on everything we buy/sell/trade/produce/distribute, etc. The tax is already being paid, now, we'll just be able to SEE it on the recipt instead of it being hidden and built into the cost. If you're going to get involved with an issue, you should at least pay some attention
The Fair Tax is written with not only a consumption tax which would replace all of the revenue of the current income tax, it also has in it a 'rebate check'. Think of this as a monthly rebate for the overpayment of taxes that you'd normally get back at the end of the year (after the IRS has used it all year long, BTW).
No -- the fairtax is a farce. The prebate is a farce too. Pure bullshit.
Google Fairtax absurdity, and learn something.
One way to tell Fairtax is fooling your dumb ass -- it pretends to get most of its taxes FROM the government.
That's right fool -- FROM the government. The government would pay huge sales taxes on everything - on medicare --on new highways -- on military spending/
Are you fuching nuts? The government PAYING taxes and counting that as income/
The government already pays those taxes. you should look up all the studies (they're mentioned in the footnotes of each page that mentions them). clearly, though, you aren't interested in the studies because you weren't interested in paying attention in the first place
Sorry guys, you're absolutely wrong about 'donations' and 40-50% or whatever other falsehoods you're implying. It is obvious you don't know what you're talking about. Read the Fair Tax before you make fools of yourselves again.
Pisc - there is no provision for this lunatic plan of everyone cutting their pay. That's just Fairtax con game. The language of Fairtax has NOTHING it iabout donating money to you employer.
But thats how these crazy liars can say prices won't go up. Thats how crazy and bullshit their plan is. Its based on their HOPE that everyone VOLUNTARILY donates all they used to pay in taxes, to the employer.
Its hard to get more bullshit than Fairtax, it really is.
Boortz sure as hell did write that tor prices not to go way the fuch up cause of the Fairtax -- we all ALL, did I mention ALL -- have to DONATE money BACK to our employer. Otherwise, prices will go up 40-50% -- whatever the lunatic sales tax is.
Want proof he wrote it? Its in his OWN frigging article in free republic. Read it. Its a "clarification".
Boortz is lying to you lunatic sheep.
So guess what happens when we don't all donate our taxes back to employer?
And, if you currently earn minimum wage, you're employer won't be able to cut your pay by the amount you pay in taxes because that would put your hourly rate below minimum. That means everyone earning minimum wage would, in fact, get to take home more money.
Gee, I wonder why National Association of Retailers said Fairtax would DEVESTATE -- thats right -- DEVESTATE the economy. And the National Association of Retails knows a little sumpin about sales and taxes.
Also, the US Treasure studied the national sales tax idea - said it would be 65% - not 23 as the liars at Fairtax said. Maybe thats why National Retailers said the lunatic Fairtax would DEVSTATE the economy - cause it WOULD. Its bullshit.
Oh no - you don't keep more of your paycheck under Fairtax. Thats another peice of BS. Boortz has admitted -- the only way prices don't go way up, is if we all donate - thats right donate --money that we used to pay in taxes, back to our employer. Thats right, employers could only lower prices - if ALL the workers donated the money they used to pay in taxes. Thats what Boortz himself wrote. And its another example of Fairtax bullshit.
No, this is your bullshit. Boortz never wrote anything about donations. Under the fair tax you will get to KEEP YOUR WHOLE PAYCHECK, it's as simple as that. If you're employer decides to cut your pay by the amount you currently pay in taxes, you won't have any more income but you won't have any less either.
All sales taxes add to cost. Fairtax is even worse. It adds 50K in sales tax to a 120K medical bill. It adds 500 billion in sales tax to what the Pentagon buys. It adds to everyone's rent - rent has to pay the sales tax. Only, FT would be the highest sales tax on earth -- and it would be on things like rent, medical care, even the space shuttle, for NASA.
You need to check your facts. The fair tax doesn't cut federal taxes, it simply changes the way federal taxes are collected so that's it's more fair. Whatever complaints you have about the fair tax applies more so to our current income tax system. It's federal spending that's nonsense, not the fair tax.
FairTax - untaxes the poor by giving them more of their pay check and no sales tax on the basic necessities of life. The want to pay more taxes....their 'choice'.
The FairTax 'replaces' the taxes embedded in the cost of items already. So the only difference is you 'see' the amount of tax you pay on the receipt, you keep more of your pay check and April 15th is just another day :)
IF YOU SUPPORT IT, CALL YOUR ELECTED REPS AND TELL THEM TO CO-SPONSOR THE FAIRTAX BILL FOR 2009!!
1) you say the middle class doesn't get the rebate. everyone gets the prebate
2) you say there will be a drastic increase in the sales tax that will hurt the middle class. everything you buy right now contains embedded taxes and costs (payroll, corporate, compliance, etc) from the suppliers, distributors, retailers. the fairtax replaces them. revenue neutral. prices don't change. keep all your paycheck. toursists and pimps pay it. no price changes. read the fairtax book and learn!
Not only (as answered various times) would the middle-class families qualify for the prebate, but there wouldn't be a drastic increase in sales tax, it would replace the imbedded tax that is currently in sales items already. I would highly encourage you to re-read both books, and pay attention to how it REPLACES the imbedded tax in items, not adds to it.
EVERYONE gets the rebates. Period. Why is this so misunderstood?
Honestly - why is this not totally embraced by America? No IRS. Everyone gets a $6000+ check. You pay as you go and embedded taxes go away, causing retail prices to compensate and level the playing field...
Drug dealers pay taxes when they buy cars... 12 million illegal immigrants suddenly become tax payers... the rich get taxed on their yachts and lose all loopholes...
I'm sure this has already been answered, but hopefully by reading the books you realize that every household receives the prebate, not just the poor. You are untaxed up to the poverty level of spending, and then the more you spend on NEW goods and services the more tax you pay. Treating people equally, what a novel concept!
to address the original video post. I've read both books and the bill. there is nothing in ether saying only the poor would get the prebate. Every head of household gets a check or DD for there tax burden up to there poverty level speanding. if anyone can quote the bill as saying otherwise I'd be interested in seeing it.
From BHI/fairtaxorg:"Households in the lowest income band, with an (AGI) of less than $10,000 annually, would benefit because they would receive the prebate that would more than offset any higher cost of purchasing goods.Households in the top income category, with more than $150,000 in annual income, would also gain as they do not have to pay their highest marginal tax rates. Mid-income category households would lose because the Fair Tax would impose a relatively higher tax rate on them."
From BHI/fairtaxorg:"Households in the lowest income band, with an (AGI) of less than $10,000 annually, would benefit because they would receive the prebate that would more than offset any higher cost of purchasing goods.Households in the top income category, with more than $150,000 in annual income, would also gain as they do not have to pay their highest marginal tax rates. Mid-income category households would lose because the Fair Tax would impose a relatively higher tax rate on them."
everyone is so concerned about the middle class. i suggest you stop thinking about what group you belong to, and start thinking as individuals... More people are concerned with what will happen to govt's tax stream than they are with themselves. How will the govt operate? With a $9.7 trillion national debt, we should demand that the fed cut spending massively! Even before FT could ever become law, fed spending, and the 16th ammendment would have to be addressed.
I suggest you stop thinking as selfish individuals and start thinking about what is good for the nation. The FT/NST is supposedly revenue neutral, so the tax stream stays basicaly the same under it in the years that can be accurately forecast. So it has no effect on the debt. The clear and undebateable(if you accept fairtaxorg's own research) fact is that it would raise the taxes of the middle classes 10-100%.
Paris hilton gets a tax cut, maids across America get a tax hike.
You are probably correct about the effect FT would have on national debt. This debt is unexcuseable. Our politicians, both dems and repubs continually sell us out when it comes to this. At least we can agree that the national debt is a HUGE problem. If i ran my business like the fed does, i'd be in jail. They should be too...
We could be screwed if FT significantly reduces government income with the way it spends money today. Now if the government actually stopped wasting so much freaking money at the federal level, it wouldn't need so much money in the first place!
This is ridiculous to say it is "not debateable" i am in the middle class, speaking as an "individual" (look it up if you need to) i would be better off under the FTax plan, period. I would have more control over my own money and future. If i want to pay less in taxes, i change my spending habits. Sure it would be a sacrifice, but under current plan, the harder i work, i have no choice but to pay more and more of my earnings in taxes... again, MY EARNINGS.
See you are out for #1, and could ccare less what happens to the nation, that is your problem-- try thinking about the good of the nation instead of your self-interests.
The point is how it effects EVERYONE, and on average the middle classes will see a 10-100% hike in effective taxes, while the top earners will have a tax cut of up to 50% or more.
If you want to live in the world of Soylent Green, you would have it under the FT/NST.
Soylent Green? You must be kidding. Clearly you have me pegged. LOL If people were as concerned with "individual rights" as they are about the "collective," we'd all be alot better off. The rights of the individual should be the most sacred thing we protect. You should try moving to a socialist country, perhaps you'd be happier. Preservation of my individual freedom to choose,to control my own future, is what is most important. And as a "middle classer" i'd have it under the FT.
You have all those rights you listed NOW, and if one is middle class the FT/NST would harm them greatly-- it is funny how most FT fans spout about how bad taxes are now, yet the FT will RAISE THEIR TAXES.
The FT/NST harms the "well-being" of the mids while raising the "well-being" of the wealthy greatly (source:fairtaxorg, BHI, Table 11 tiny url 593htl)... which is pretty much the situation in Soylent Green, where a plutocracy control the nation/food while the masses are eating themselves.
You seem to be assuming that you have a choice under the FT of whether to pay taxes on your money-- the problem is, if you spend the money, it is taxed, at 23%i/30%e. Unless spent eventually, what good is your money? None, it is paper.
Unless you enjoy living in a shack,eating beans, and using newspapers for tp, the FT will tax you more, maybe not the day you get the money, but if you ever want to USE the money (you can always mattress it until you die, but is that "freedom"?) boom, 23%.
fortunately this is just not true. We WOULD have more power and choice under FT. Those who are most afraid of FT are politicians who lose their ability to buy votes by manipulating taxes, and lobbyists who game the system by getting big corporate interests tax breaks. Can you imagine? NO ONE would be able to be "tax exempt" NO ONE would have to file a tax return, and you could choose to spend your money in a way that would lessen your tax burden... used goods... no beans or shacks necessary.
Incorreect, according to the data at fairtaxorg, again,their own data shows... if one makes roughly 20K$ to 150-200K$, unless one wants to have a lower standard of living than under the FT/NST, on average one will pay more in taxes under an FT. AGAIN, this is from THEIR OWN DATA. SO sure, I guess you could call it a choice-- the avergage middle class person can "choose" to pay more taxes to live as he does now, or can see his quality of life and "well-being" diminsh.
PS-- unfortunately, some US citizens could be tax exempt totally-- those with enough wealth to live abroad if they so desire. Living in the Bahamas, paying no US tax on their income, buying up real estate in Manhattan and other markets with their totally untaxed income... meanwhile, again, the middle class man has that wonderful choice you mentioned-- pay more in taxes or suffer a diminished "well-being"/quality of life.
Well said. It's time to take it out of the hands of the government.
I'm so sick of hearing people say "What is the Government gonna do for me?"
Bush said it best the other day when responding to a reporters question saying "Don't you think you should tell the American people to conserve?". Bush replied "I think the American people can balance their own check books and turn down their own thermostats, they dont need us to tell them."
The fair tax would raise the taxes of the middle classes-- that fact is really not debateable at this point, as supporters' own favorite biased economist thinktank's papers admit this fact, repeatedly.
Any FT/NST fan arguing against that fact is arguing against supporters' own research, and is truly confused.
"Fair" Tax aka National Sales Tax-Inclusive aka "NaSTi" will never pass,thankfully, although I truly wish some of these fans had to live under it, lol.
"The authors write that opponents of the FairTax are Marxists, liars, propagandists, uneducated, lazy, manipulative and/or "wallow in envy of those who have more":
Using such language, scattered throughout this book, is a common radio talk-show tactic (one of the authors is a radio talk jock) intended to preempt readers from listening to or analyzing another point of view." C. O'Connor
You will see the Boortzbots doing this very thing throughout FT/NST comments.
If you are just looking into the "Fair" Tax aka National Sales Tax-inclusive aka "NaSTi"-- if you understand the difference between "marginal" and "effective" rates, look at the numbers, don't fall for the scam:
Current EFFECTIVE Federal rates for he middle classes- about 8-18%, and that INCLUDES all FICA and CIT. -- source, CBO
Effective federal rates of the FT/NST for the middle classes, 19%. --Beacon Hill Inst., FT supporters
Current effective federal rate of top20% = 26%. -- CBO
If I could use crayons here, I could probably put it in a way you could better understand. I see business isn't your only failure. Seems the English language gives you a hard time too. What part of 'some households' can you not understand? I can see now why you've failed so many times. Isn't it time to feed the roaches?
See the table above the quote, o' dense one, "some households" is those making $10K to $150K-- you can be delusional in your jealousy of me all you want (yes, poor me and my $250K+ worth of real estate equity, lol), the numbers-- FT/NST SUPPORTERS' own numbers-- show you to be a fool, as those who wallow in their ignorance always are.
I can see easily why you've never failed at anything-- you've never DONE anything, lol.
I can't stop laughing! Jealous of what? If you think $250k is a lot, you need to go look at real estate prices again. Where I live, that would buy a trailer on a half acre. But then again, when you live in the low rent district, 250k would be a lot. Let's you and I compare net worth, then we'll see who the failure is. At the very least, I wasn't stupid enough to post my personal information all over the internet for anyone to see! AND my wife's name too! What an imbecile. Now rat me out again.
In p.i.e. we see the basic example of the FT fan-- naive, not understanding basic economic concepts (effective vs. marginal, equity vs. home cost, etc.), spewing nothing but delusuional ad hominems, unable to challenge any data posted, often because he doesn't understand it and won't take the time to try-- he'll take the word of "economists" instead, unable to realize the data posted is from economists, those who support the FT.
"In the aggregate, 'some' households would not be as well off for the first couple of years. However, a stronger incentive to invest and save would cut into consumption, and the greater incentive to work would cut into leisure."
What that means: Once people learn that they'll be bringing home what they earn, they'll have the incentive to be more productive. More productive, more money for spending and saving. Yes, the more you work, the less time you'll have for leisure. But that's your choice.
Incorrect, as usual. What it means is that to tread water, just staying even with where they were before, they would have to work more to have the same quality of life.
What part of "would not be as well off" can you not understand?
clearly she didn't either read about or comprehend the Fair Tax plan... there is no one who is "not eligable" for the rebate (more precisely the prebate). That's what makes it fair. Everyone gets the same amount. For the poor they can end up paying negative taxes. For the rich, its a drop in the bucket of how much they will spend in taxes. For the middle class it will be somewhere in between. I'm not saying its a good idea, but she should at least get her facts straight...
Nothing is sadder than hearing FT/NST supporters complaining about "working to pay Uncle Sam" and then claiming they want the "fair" tax for "freedom!" The FT/NST would only make things worse for these people if they amke $10K-150K a year, as the following quote helpes show...
Here is a direct quote from a BHI paper at the supporting FT site:
"In the aggregate, some households* would not be as well off for the first couple of years**.However, a stronger incentive to invest and save would cut into consumption, and the greater incentive to work would cut into leisure."
Beacon Hill Institute, "The Economic Effects of the FairTax", page 31, Table 11
The right-leaning thinktank, Beacon Hill Institute, that did much of the "research" touted by the FT/NST's financial backers on their main FT/NST site, admit that the FT/NST is "regressive across income."
Look at the numbers--they are telling the truth!
They then claim it is progressive vs. expenditures.. well, DUH! It's a sales tax, of course it is, it is essentially FLAT. However, even when looked at across expenditures, the middle classes are paying more in taxes.
The answer to your question is that the prebate is based on family size, not income. Every legal household gets it. It is based on family size rather than income to ensure that what you said does not occur.
The prebate joke -- your kid could be dying of cancer, and you spend 400,000 to keep her alive. You get 150,000 in SALES taxes on t his medical bill. Guess what your prebate is to offset this 150,000? About 1,000 dollars, if its a 5 month illness.
You guys are dumber than dog do. This prebate is a fuching joke if you get sick or have other high expenses. And working poor people get sick you idiots. How the fuch are they gonna pay these bullshit taxes?
that's not how the Fairtax works, MakemyPower. Just to let you guys know, MakeMyPower has several youtube names (such as MarkDouglasC) because he can't find anyone to agree with his lies on the Fairtax. The truth is, people who are tied to our current system (IRS employees, Tax Preparers, K Street Lobbyists) are dead set against this, as they fear for their jobs. But I promise you, Mark, you'll be able to find another job under the Fairtax with its economic boom.
simple, enforce tne fair tax laws which will distribute taxes evenly amoung the people. Next, by all means you get rid of the income tax law which is unapportion, unconstitutional, and dentrimental to the American people.
is it possible for this girl to be more stupid? did she say she read and understood the book? Her comment is like saying "i understood the concept of Moby Dick, but i've always hated long drum solos" She obviously missed the part that all americans would get the prebate. Was she trying to mis speak or what? She's probably going to vote for Hillary... Hey UGA! Put the cliff's notes down, put your glasses on, stop drinking at frat parties, and read it again...
With all do respect, this is NOT the right way to spread the word of the Fairtax. Maybe she just misunderstood the concept. She was being respectful, and we should do the same. otherwise, why should people listen to us if we're going to be rude to them? that's what killed Ron Paul's campaign.
I do too, but when I argue, I do it more for those who have never heard of the Fairtax or want to learn more about it than those that are just lying to protect their own self interests, whether they be IRS employees, lobbyists, tax preparers, etc
If you make between $25,000 and $250,000 a year, you will pay more in taxes under this tax. It increases the burden of the middle classes and lowers it on the wealthy, according to the FT/NST backers OWN NUMBERS: From Beacon Hill: Table 9. Average Tax-Inclusive Rates by Income Groups for the FairTax(Replacing Current Income, Payroll, and Estate and Gift Taxes) by income level deciles: 1 223% 2 30% 3 26% 4 22% 5 20% 6 19% 7 18% 8 19% 9 17% 10 13% Average 20%
No, try again, look at the numbers provided by SUPPORTERS of the FT/NST, Beacon HIll-- those making the top 10% of income see their taxes roughly cut in half, while those in the middle classes see their taxes rise 20-60%.
It is simple... 13%<20%<26%...
Try to get past the disengenuous propaganda and subterfuge of the backers and look at the numbers.
well not that I'm an advocate of wealth envy, so arguments that try to play on that loose credibitily with me. But at any rate, what you said is still not true. Taxes will not rise for the middle class. the rich will actually pay more into the FT system as rich people buy more new items (and more expensive ones at that) and eat out more whereas the poor and middleclass will benefit more from the prebate.still the rich will recieve a dramatic relief in their tax burden just like everyone else.
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Is this tax progressive or regressive?Here is the quote from one of the Beacon Hill treatises on the AFT site:
"The key result of the foregoing discussion is that it matters fundamentally how one frames the discussion of the distributional effects of the FairTax. When people are sorted by expenditure per capita, the FairTax is progressive; when they are sorted by income per capita, it is regressive."
Those who undertand what this means now understand what a bad idea the "Fair" Tax is.
Diskatop 2 weeks ago
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Read tiny url 593htl . It is a link to supporters' own research. The important part to read is page 30 on, "Appendix: Households’ Well-Being under the FairTax", in which they clearly state that according to their research those making from $15,000 to $150,000 a year would on average pay MORE in taxes under the "Fair" Tax than now. They try and fudge around this with what they call "income mobility", however Table 13 makes it clear--that mobility is into poverty-- and they call that a positive.
FairTaxisaLie 3 weeks ago
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Again, there is no debate if one accepts Fair Tax org's own research-- under this horrible tax, those making from $15,000 to $150,000 a year would on average pay more federal taxes than they do now, and those making more than $150,000 would pay less. See tinyurl 593htl, page 30 on, particularly Table 13 years 7-8 and 15-16 to see the egregious fudging they do to try and make it seem that the middleclasses would be better off paying more in taxes. Also see Table 5 to see who reaps the rewards.
1969was1969 2 months ago
everyone is eligible for the prebate EXCEPT for illegal immigrants... and there you go, if they are illegal, the fair tax makes a sort of natural repellent to illegal immigration
ANTIMKrebirth 7 months ago
1. Implement a flat tax
2. Constitutional amendment banning income tax
3. National sales tax
IRS is bigger than the CIA and the FBI.
When you are charged with any crime you have the right to be innocent until proven guilty... unless the IRS charges you in which case you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent.
Fight the IRS by fighting income tax. When there is no income tax, there is no IRS and our rights remain in tact.
darris321 10 months ago 2
Aly, EVERY household in America receives the Prebate payment. ONLY those in the country ILLEGALLY could not receive the Prebate.
The Prebate payment is the same and is based ONLY on the number of Legal Residents residing in the household.
Just like today's system EXEMPTS from tax the first Income we earn per year, so too the FairTax exempts the first SPENDING we do. The Prebate payment makes it so no one has to track it, no tax forms to file.
MrSpartan1973 11 months ago
The answer to her question is that the FairTax repeals all other taxes. So, when those go away, prices will come down. Then the FairTax is added on and you're right back to where you were.
Example: today you buy a DVD player for $100. Pass the FairTax and that price will drop to about $77 because the embedded taxes go away. The FairTax then puts $23 on the price and you're back to $100. Nothing has changed, except you get to keep all of your paycheck instead of the gov't stealing it.
B17Boy 11 months ago
Remember also, The FairTax Bill is a "closed" Bill. It can't be changed until it is implemented. And then, it requires a Super Majority to make any changes to it afterwards. And WE THE PEOPLE won't let that happen unless they want to LOWER the rate.
LA04FairTax 11 months ago
EVERYbody gets the Prebate! That is why it is called the FairTax Plan. you might want to read the book again, It is very simple, Even the liberalist of liberals would see that it benifits the poorist the most and the middle class greatly and even the Evil Wealthy business owner can consitrate the effort it takes to comply with the IRS and grow their business and create more jobs to help the middle class and poor to have jobs and not be so poor or even middle class! READ not jus clance.
flmcon 1 year ago
the sales tax increase will not change the price of goods substantially it will get rid of embedded taxes that are hidden in the price of goods then once you add the new sales tax there is very little difference
bluechevy98 1 year ago
fairtaxfraud.c o m/supporters.asp
Truth about fair tax, guess what just like all conservative ideas its not fair.
MaudsPas 1 year ago
Prices will not rise with the FairTax. When the income tax is removed, prices will drop due to competition. This has always happened in the past. Ask any economics student. Profits stay steady at 5 to 8 percent. That's the beauty of capitalism. The poor will pay no taxes, due to the prebate. MORE people will be
paying taxes because illegals and criminals will pay. 250 billion dollars will be eliminated from the collection overhead.
urgener 1 year ago
Read the book. It is VERY easy to understand. Then read our current tax code and see if that makes sense to you.
jeffreywsmith 1 year ago
How many times do I have to explain this. Only consumers pay taxes. Corporations just forward taxes to their customers. When the income tax is removed, the cost of production will lower costs (always has, and always will). When the FairTax is added, prices will return right back where they were. There will be no rise in prices. Meanwhile, your take-home pay will increase.
urgener 1 year ago
Are you sure about middle class families not being eligible for the prebates? I think you got that part wrong. According to my reading, all working families would be eligible for prebates up to the poverty level. Please let me know if I missed something.
dwbrickey 1 year ago
There won't be a dramatic increase in taxes due to the Fair Tax. The competitive marketplace will keep prices down, and, the fact that their won't be any more taxes on business will mean that the extra $.23 will be rolled into the current price of goods. This may not happen right away, but the businesses that try to rip off the consuming public won't survive. To put it as simply as possible, no more business taxes will mean that businesses can lower price to compensate for the extra 23% tax.
dwbrickey 1 year ago
Seems to me, the only fair tax is no tax.
fugstik 1 year ago
@fugstik I believe that the only truely fair tax would be, = Everyone gets a bill for the same foler amount and is expected to pay that amount, But you and I and everyone else knows dat aint never gonna happen, This is the next best thing.
flmcon 1 year ago
Everyone's eligible for the prebate. It's that simple. The prebate is set based only on household size, @ 23% of the poverty rate. A single mom making $19k or a billionaire gets the same check (assuming same household size).
somedudeinva 1 year ago
Kay Zwerling from KSCO am 1080 in Santa Cruz does a great commentary on the Fari Tax that just repeated, you can find it on the KSCO page under her archives.... worth listening to. There is also a text of her comments.
blummedia 1 year ago
The prebate pays the rich, poor, and middle-class all in the same fashion. Luxury items will be taxed heavily, yes, but that isn't a bad thing IMO.
I'm fairly certain that a middle-class earner will save more money under the FAIRTAX system as long as they spend reasonably. However, this scenario you elude to is a very real concern because Americans (for the most part) live and spend above their means.
Cheers
scenesonn 1 year ago
Oh...and those middle class pay checks...keep every penny of them!
BusyBrainwasher 1 year ago
C'mon UGA! REREAD chapters 5 and 9. Not only do all households receive a prebate each month for "basic household necessities" based on income and size but as you'll REREAD in chapter 5, due to the competitive nature of our market economy the "drastic increase in sales tax" would be undermined. That is to say, with the elimination of the current embedded taxes of roughly 22% that we all already pay, Americans are likely to to see a leveling or even reduction in the retail cost of consumer goods.
BusyBrainwasher 1 year ago
Aly, I'm glad you're interested in the FairTax, and thank you for submitting the question. Someone must have confused you by saying something to the effect that "those living under the poverty level will receive a rebate to offset the taxes paid on essentials." The fact is that the rebate (or "pre-bate" as I like to call it because it is received at the beginning of each month, prior to spending) is available to ALL households, regardless of income level, and is based on household size.
georgiawineguy 1 year ago
go re read CHAPTER 9 of the fair tax book. Everyone gets the prebate.
72mhanna 1 year ago
E V E R Y B O D Y gets the rebate!!!!!
flmcon 1 year ago 10
@flmcon Thats what I was going to say!!!
shelbyhanneman 1 year ago
emotional!
taxdebtreliefrelief 2 years ago
woops, i thought she said she read the book, apparently not.
2008HLB 2 years ago
Yup, she may want to go back re-read the book again.
jgowrie 2 years ago
"Fair Tax"??? Who sets the rate of taxation and what prevents them from raising it to 70,80 or 90%
blummedia 2 years ago
@blummedia, They are basing the percentage on a tax-neutral program. Dollar for dollar federal tax neutral. To the second part of your question; what stops them from increasing Income Tax to 70, 80, 90 percent right now? Nothing stops them from doing that now.
JJHauser 2 years ago 3
While I agree that we need a simplified system that anyone could figure out it doesn't change who the masters are and who the salves are.
5% of what anyone makes would be a great rule and I'd like to see that happen.
Nothing in the Fair Tax prevents the masters from raising the level of taxation, PERIOD.
Nice talking to you and thanks for the response JJ.
blummedia 2 years ago
@blummedia
Technically your right. Nothing in the bill could prevent politicians from raising the rate. That will be up to us Americans. Raising the rate would tax everyone more. The fairtax in making tax collection more transparent may help prevent politicians from raping us blindly.
dtvgmedia 1 year ago
@dtvgmedia I understand your position and we the people still have the power to vote these bums out.... it would be easier if EVERYONE PAID, they'd more likely pay attention.
I'm still waiting to see a reduction in spending for once in my lifetime.
Have a good day!
blummedia 1 year ago
@dtvgmedia I tell you what, it would be one hell of a way to boycott the government... everyone goes on a spending freeze and shuts them down.
blummedia 1 year ago
@JJHauser only the people can stop them.
dtvgmedia 1 year ago
@blummedia , The bill sets the rate at 23% inclusive. WE prevent them from raising it, by voting them out when they try. What's stopping them from raising the income tax?
utoobia 1 year ago
@utoobia It should never be any higher than 10%, I'd go for 7% as the States should be the ones providing services, not the Federal Government.
blummedia 1 year ago
@blummedia How about a 35% tax on your income? Are you more comfortable with that?
Assume we are currently under the FT system. If you are spending more money on sales tax than you are saving on your income.... there is clearly a problem with your spending habits.
scenesonn 1 year ago
@scenesonn The government should take no more than 10% of anyones income, then a fair tax is not an "income" tax and I don't believe the government was given the power to tax or take a free Citizens property at gunpoint. How come I can figure out how to run a government with 10%?
blummedia 1 year ago
@blummedia
Correct, I thought we had already established fair tax is not an income tax... It actually abolishes the income tax, believe it or not.
Well, a government is run on money gathered from taxation. The aim is to curb government spending, not eliminate it all together. Someone's gotta fund restructuring projects and national defense.
scenesonn 1 year ago
@scenesonn Its 30% look it up. Im poor I like it the poor tax payers would get $520 a month to spend instead of a tax check at the end of the year. I'm down with that who wouldn't be? Plus no more playstation, X-box life kids would play sports more! I raise my kids to play sports and not video games and abunch of stuff they dont need. Also though if someone does pass this meaning the GOP that must not get a penny from taxes for spending on there party and all charities and churchs need taxed..
carnypimp 1 year ago
@utoobia How come they aren't being voted out now or in the past?
blummedia 1 year ago
@blummedia , my honest answer is that the electorate are morons. We Americans are not NEARLY engaged, informed or aware of the dangerous, nefarious nature of politicians and the coming consequences of their criminally irresponsible fiscal behavior.
utoobia 1 year ago
MathTruthTax
FreeLunchTax
SouthernFriedHoney
These names are all the same person. This guy just spams every Fair tax debate on you tube.
He is just too stupid and arrogant to think that everyone goes around calling each other Retard, Moron, Dumb fuck or uses hoax and farce in the same sentence all the time.
riotuesday 2 years ago
And FarceTax, This is yet another name this person uses to Spam the Fair Tax debate
So that is
MathTruthTax
FreeLunchTax
SouthernFriedHoney
FarceTax
riotuesday 2 years ago
Hith - sorry. I didnt read your full statement. You seemed to be saying Fairtax would result in LOWER taxes for xy or z.
My point is Fairtax is a FUCKING FARCE. It won't lower shit for anyone. Not for x, not for y, not for z. No one.
You can't tax government to create income,.
The leaders know it's a farce, their own "sponsors" are not trying to even introduce it. They would vote against such taxes if it ever came to vote.
Its pure BS -- it is literally a hoax, a farce.
MathTruthTax 2 years ago
Aly, good question. Most of us pay sales taxes to our State comptroller for items included in the Tax Base. Most states EXCLUDE services from state sales tax.
Under the FairTax proposal, every individual, business and federal/state/local government entity pay sales tax on ALL products AND services, no exceptions.
This results in a tax decrease for the lowest and highest income levels accompanied by a drastic INCREASE for middle income earners.
Hithard177 2 years ago
@Hithard177 Dumb fuck -- no idiot, the moment you try to tax every state, every city, for every dime the spend, you dumb fuck, they will not pay it. You wont be able to collect it -- got that dumb fuck.
Cities and states wont fucking pay this huge tax you fucking idiot. The military wont pay it, retard.
But FT math is based on them all paying it, retard. Got that you fucking idiot? The money won't be coming in retard.
So it wont fucking work moron.
FreeLunchTax 2 years ago
@FreeLunchTax Hey, I'm AGAINST the FairTax - I clarified for the young lady that IF implemented it would adversely impact the middle class.
I agree that taxing state and local government (and federal) is an insane proposition. I'm not dumb, or a retard or an idiot, so please don't jump to conclusions.
Can't you make your point without using personal attacks and such vile language, or is that too intellectually challenging for you?
Hithard177 2 years ago
Midnight - you aren't here to educate me? No shit dumb fuck, since you are an idiot. Im here to tell your dumb ass FT is a hoax, literally a hoax, a farce.
No corporations support it, though it would get rid of ALL their taxes?? Why arent they on board dumb fuck? In fact, why has your few "leaders" backed totally off of this magic wand?
Cause it's bullshit you retard. Cause it's a fucking farce. You would need a 90% sales tax, dumb fuck, to replace all other taxes, idiot. Not 23.
SouthernFriedHoney 2 years ago
Comment removed
SouthernFriedHoney 2 years ago
cool
ydebtreliefconsolidy 2 years ago
Short and sweet
baddebtwow 2 years ago
Everyone gets the prebate, not just the poor.
The prebate is a monthly check (cash money) that offsets the taxes you would pay up to the poverty line. Everyone gets the same amount.
jkalweit2580 2 years ago
the prebate doesnt do shit if you have cancer, or your child does, or other health issues. Your tax on a major health problem could be 50,000 or 100,000 -- just in taxes you fucking idiot.
Think you dumb ass -- think
CompareTaxMyths 2 years ago
Your language shows your lack of knowledge on the subject. With the "Fair Tax" prices end up the same as they are now. Just look at your cell phone bill, you now pay about 40% in gov. taxes. that would go down to just 23%. There are hidden taxes in every facet of this country, the "Fair Tax" eliminates all hidden taxes. So products will end up cheaper or the same + you get 100% of your paycheck not 75-85%. WOW!
midnght789 2 years ago
midnight dumb fuck -- sorry idiot. The Fairtax leaders themselves backed off tht insane shit years ago --- and they backed off that "keep your whole paycheck" shit too.
Infact, the Fairtax leaders have backed off it all. It's a hoax, a farce, and they know it. The LEADERS know its bullshit, cause they made the bullshit up.
No one will get a prebate -- cause the whole plan is a farce, a hoax, a pile of shit.
SouthernFriedHoney 2 years ago
I'm sure this kind of rhetoric worked in school. Scream, yell, and call names to drown out the other side. This is a forum, people can actually read & investigate the veracity of each response.
So here we are. The Fair Tax, the House Resolution on the floor of the congress, has not changed, no one has backed off on the wording it is the same as it was last year & the year before. ? why do you support our current system do you work for the IRS? Or you just are truly afraid of change.
midnght789 2 years ago
I hate our current tax system.
Nothing has changed? Dumb fuck -- nothing is going on idiot. You fucks have NEVER asked for a hearing under oath, NEVER got support from corporations, NEVER explained how the fuck every city county and state will pay huge taxes.
Nor dumb fuck have you explained things like how a very high tax rate would effect new home and car sales -- which are taxed.
But since its pure fucking hoax -- don't worry. FT leaders are not serious about this shit anyway
SouthernFriedHoney 2 years ago
I'm not here to educate you, Its good you have questions, that's good. It means your now open to learning. I didn't even have to call you childish names. You may actually get past your fears & programming. So what you need to do is read my other comments about embedded taxes. I have already answered you. You just need to get past the anger name calling & just learn. Someday when your older I hope this will be a moot discussion. Good luck, maybe you won't come off so ignorant the next time.
midnght789 2 years ago
Well, you're half right. Everyone, up to the poverty line would get a prebate check. Over the poverty line, nada. That's partly the point.
capttheo1 2 years ago
cap you dont even know your own pretend plan. Under Farce tax - everyone gets the prebate dumb fuck.
But its all a hoax, dumb ass, its a farce - their own "leaders" know its pure fucking bullshit - notice how they dare not to have hearing on it, in 13 years dumb ass?
Why not? Because its a fucking hoax you idiot -- its balderdash, double talk, they know its silly shit. The tax rate would have to be 60-90% dumb fuck -- to replace all other taxes. They know people would shit.
12FlyMe 2 years ago
jk dumb fuck -- no one will get a prebate check ever idiot. The whole fucking thing is a hoax, a farce.
Fairtax leaders know it -- and are not trying to pass it. They know its bullshit.
No one is trying to pass this idiot. The Fairtax leaders don't fucking dare to even have hearings under oath. It's a farce dumb shit.
SouthernFriedHoney 2 years ago
captheo -- sorry dumb fuck -- I'd love the Fairtax if it wasnt such a bowl of dog shit.
I was for the Fairtax, till I found out it was a farce, a hoax, total fucking nonsense that they have NO intention of passing dumb fuck.
What part of "taxing the goverment" for trillions of dollars don't you get? Dumb fuck - its a HOAX, a farce, its BULLSHIT.
FreeLunchTax 2 years ago
I'm just curious, so how long HAVE you been a tax lobbiest?
capttheo1 2 years ago
Its so funny all the anger & Swearing??? Whats BS? the government gives out checks every week to millions of Americans now. No problem.
All I can see is fear of change. Why? Why do people defend the devil they know so animatedly?
midnght789 2 years ago
@midnght789
Dumb fuck -- Im not for our tax code as it is, retard. We need a whole new system.
But Fairtax you fucking idiot, is a fucking farce. It's own leaders know its a farce, they are not trying to pass it retard.
Fairtax is a farce, you dumb fuck. No one is trying to pass it. It's own sponsors will never fucking vote for it. Its a hoax, dumb fuck, a farce. It's not a serious plan.
FreeLunchTax 2 years ago
So you retards pretend you can make the government pay itself a huge SALES tax??
Why not make it pay itself a huge INCOME tax - and see how that fucking works.
No other fucking nation on FUCKING earth pretends the FUCKING government can pay itself HUGE fucking sales taxes.
Fucking Fairtax is a fucking hoax - they arent fucking serious about it. They know their own fucking plan is fucking bunch of shit. Its a farce, its all bullshit.
FarceTax 2 years ago
Gee, you know, I've never actually had a "face- to- face" with a socialist before. I mean, you know that we have to reduce this country to third world status as soon as possible. We have to make sure that we are weak and pathetic as we can get so that the govenment can stay in power as long as possible. Uncle Joe and uncle Karl would be proud of you.
capttheo1 2 years ago
Here is a fucking clue. ... if you can make the government pay itself a huge SALES tax -- why the FUCK can't you make it pay an INCOME tax to itself?
You got that dumb fucks? its just as fucking crazy. It's bullshit - its a hoax -- its a farce. They aren't serioius about passing this plan - they are lying to your dumb asses.
CompareTaxMyths 2 years ago
You know, I think you're right. The gov't should just go ahead and confiscate all funds and give everyone what they think they need when they apply to get it. That way everyone would be equal, nobody would have to pay anything, and we can all stand around our huts holding hands and singing Kumbaya. I have the actual House bill on my computer. It's truly a pity that your job as a tax lobbyist prevents you from actually understanding what it's truly about.
capttheo1 2 years ago
I know what its about dumb fuck.
Its about MATH you fucking idiot. Its about BULLSHIT.
Your fucking "fairtax math" is pure fucking bullshit. You got that dumb fuck? Its pure fucking bullshit.
Our present system sucks. But Fairtax is a fucking math Fairty tale. Its a fucking hoax, a fucking bunch of shit.
I told your dumb ass that making the goverment pay itself a huge SALES tax is as FUCKING STUPID as pretending it can pay itself a huge INCOME tax.
Got that dumb fuck?
FarceTax 2 years ago
So, FlyMe, I can only assume that you so thoroughly enjoy having your paycheck taken away that you voluntarily donate the rest of it. After all, everyone knows that the government knows WAY better how to spend your money than you do, right? I mean, I know that I certainly don't want to keep a whole lot more of the money I earn. I enjoy having my earnings given to someone who doesn't plan on working. Try doing something new. Read the book. You might gain something new. Knowledge.
capttheo1 2 years ago
cap -- you arent graspoing this are you???
The book is bullshit. Its a farce. Its fucking nonsense. Got that? It's a crock of shit.
Read page 148 for example -- "the federal government will become a MAJOR taxpayer"
So will state and local governments -- all major taxpayers. Are you fucking NUTS? Just have the GOVERNMENET pay ITSELF huge taxes -- and count that as income?
Its FUCKING INSANE SHIT -- its a hoax, its bullshit.
CompareTaxMyths 2 years ago
Studies -- what fucking studies are you fucking talking about?
YOu mean those pieces of shit they call studies. Gesus what a dumb fuck.
THose arent studies dumb fuck -- they are commercials. They start with the assumpmtion Fairtax works - then tells you how great it is that fairtax works.
Study my ass.
Does Fairtax work? Fuck no. Its a massive tax on every city and every state. Why the fuck hide that?
They hide it cause its fucking bullshit. They know its bullshit.
CompareTaxMyths 2 years ago
Fairtax is a fucking joke - that's why corporations laugh at it.
This would get rid of ALL business taxes -- but NO corporation is for it. Retailers are very much against it.
Why the FUCK would corporation not support it? It gets rid of ALL their taxes -- yet they aren't for it. Why?
Because its FUCKING BULLSHIT. Thats why corporations laugh at it. Its a fucking farce.
You can't fucking make all cities and states pay this tax dumb fuck -- and fairtax hid this shit. Why hide it?
12FlyMe 2 years ago
No, everyone WONT get a prebate dumb fuck, cause its a MAGIC FUCKING PONY.
Its such a fucking farce, they avoid all hearings under oath.
Oh they promise all kinds of shit.
But Fairtax fine print has a massive NEW taxes -- on cities and states and the fed government.
Thats right dumb fuck, the GOVERNMENT is supposed to pay most of their OWN fucking income.
And they HIDE that shit. Why fucking hide that in fine print??
Cause its BULLSHIT and they KNOW it.
ITS FUCKED BS
12FlyMe 2 years ago
Everyone (including the middle class and poor) would get a PREbate at the beginning of each month to cover what government figures already say is the poverty level of necessary goods consumption (they send you money to cover the taxes on basic needs) It all basically means NO tax burden to be felt for those making below the poverty level living on their most basic needs. No other plan covers that and still brings money to the feds
madpan71 2 years ago
The only way Fairtax numbers "work" is if Fairtax can create 1.5 trillion dollars out of thin air, by pretending to tax the government.
Thats exactly what the Fairtax does -- look at Fairtax Book. Page 148 "The federal government will become a MAJOR taxpayer"
They also pretend to tax every city, county, and state this same insanely high tax.
Fairtax hides these taxes on government in back of the book. I wonder why.
Google Fairtax absurdity.
CompareTaxMyths 2 years ago
That money doesn't come out of thin air, it comes back to the country from all the outsourced and expatriated money that's floating around the currencies of other countries. Also, the "insanely high tax is the exact amount of tax that's already paid out, just not hidden throughout production and distribution processes. you clearly don't understand the fairtax, or how it works
madpan71 2 years ago
I know all about your idiot fucking embedded tax crap. Doesn't make a fucking bit of difference you fucking idiot.
The government can not fucking pay itself 1.5 trillion in sales taxes -- no matter what happened in your make believe world of pre-fairtax days. It doesn't fucking matter.
Suppose the country starts TODAY you dumb fuck -- and you want this dumb ass tax system that gets most of the money FROM the government.
Its dumber than dog shit you idiot. Its fucking insane shit.
NawwLeans 2 years ago
You did not read the book if you are asking this question. If you did really read the book then you need to read it again.
jboritzki 2 years ago
If you really truly READ the book then you wouldn't be asking the question! You can not possibly show me where it says in the book or in the bill that ANYONE does not get the PREBATE because IT ISN'T THERE! EVERYONE is eligible for it, not just the poor as you assume. When you read something, it's important to UNDERSTAND it as well.
keeferzjr 2 years ago
No -- you DONT understand the main concept. You read this book -- you read where they are going to make the government pay ITSELF a tax and count that as income -- and you are too stupid to question such crap?
Hello dumb ass -- get a clue.
Thats just ONE thing - but even idiots should spot that.
You retards see page 148 "the federal government ITSELF will bome a MAJOR taxpayer"
Hello you dumb ass suckers - that was your first clue.
Fairtax is bullshit, you idiots.
NawwLeans 2 years ago
Hey butt face, the government already pays embedded taxes. The book says the gov will "become a major tax payer" because the 23% sales tax will actually be called a tax. Embedded taxes are not called taxes because they're not added to the price of a product, they're already included in the price by the maker of that product. Embedded tax is a HIDDEN tax that everyone, even the gov pays today. You are so full of crap.
jboritzki 2 years ago
clearly you decided not to read the parts of the book that explain that we (the government included) already pay the taxes on everything we buy/sell/trade/produce/distribute, etc. The tax is already being paid, now, we'll just be able to SEE it on the recipt instead of it being hidden and built into the cost. If you're going to get involved with an issue, you should at least pay some attention
madpan71 2 years ago
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utubeaccess7 2 years ago
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utubeaccess7 2 years ago
The Fair Tax is written with not only a consumption tax which would replace all of the revenue of the current income tax, it also has in it a 'rebate check'. Think of this as a monthly rebate for the overpayment of taxes that you'd normally get back at the end of the year (after the IRS has used it all year long, BTW).
utubeaccess7 2 years ago
No -- the fairtax is a farce. The prebate is a farce too. Pure bullshit.
Google Fairtax absurdity, and learn something.
One way to tell Fairtax is fooling your dumb ass -- it pretends to get most of its taxes FROM the government.
That's right fool -- FROM the government. The government would pay huge sales taxes on everything - on medicare --on new highways -- on military spending/
Are you fuching nuts? The government PAYING taxes and counting that as income/
Bull fuching shit.
NawwLeans 2 years ago
The government already pays those taxes. you should look up all the studies (they're mentioned in the footnotes of each page that mentions them). clearly, though, you aren't interested in the studies because you weren't interested in paying attention in the first place
madpan71 2 years ago
Sorry guys, you're absolutely wrong about 'donations' and 40-50% or whatever other falsehoods you're implying. It is obvious you don't know what you're talking about. Read the Fair Tax before you make fools of yourselves again.
utubeaccess7 2 years ago
Pisc - there is no provision for this lunatic plan of everyone cutting their pay. That's just Fairtax con game. The language of Fairtax has NOTHING it iabout donating money to you employer.
But thats how these crazy liars can say prices won't go up. Thats how crazy and bullshit their plan is. Its based on their HOPE that everyone VOLUNTARILY donates all they used to pay in taxes, to the employer.
Its hard to get more bullshit than Fairtax, it really is.
12FlyMe 2 years ago
Boortz sure as hell did write that tor prices not to go way the fuch up cause of the Fairtax -- we all ALL, did I mention ALL -- have to DONATE money BACK to our employer. Otherwise, prices will go up 40-50% -- whatever the lunatic sales tax is.
Want proof he wrote it? Its in his OWN frigging article in free republic. Read it. Its a "clarification".
Boortz is lying to you lunatic sheep.
So guess what happens when we don't all donate our taxes back to employer?
All the prices shoot up.
12FlyMe 2 years ago
And, if you currently earn minimum wage, you're employer won't be able to cut your pay by the amount you pay in taxes because that would put your hourly rate below minimum. That means everyone earning minimum wage would, in fact, get to take home more money.
Piscivorus 2 years ago
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Gee, I wonder why National Association of Retailers said Fairtax would DEVESTATE -- thats right -- DEVESTATE the economy. And the National Association of Retails knows a little sumpin about sales and taxes.
Also, the US Treasure studied the national sales tax idea - said it would be 65% - not 23 as the liars at Fairtax said. Maybe thats why National Retailers said the lunatic Fairtax would DEVSTATE the economy - cause it WOULD. Its bullshit.
NawwLeans 2 years ago
Oh no - you don't keep more of your paycheck under Fairtax. Thats another peice of BS. Boortz has admitted -- the only way prices don't go way up, is if we all donate - thats right donate --money that we used to pay in taxes, back to our employer. Thats right, employers could only lower prices - if ALL the workers donated the money they used to pay in taxes. Thats what Boortz himself wrote. And its another example of Fairtax bullshit.
12FlyMe 2 years ago
No, this is your bullshit. Boortz never wrote anything about donations. Under the fair tax you will get to KEEP YOUR WHOLE PAYCHECK, it's as simple as that. If you're employer decides to cut your pay by the amount you currently pay in taxes, you won't have any more income but you won't have any less either.
Piscivorus 2 years ago
All sales taxes add to cost. Fairtax is even worse. It adds 50K in sales tax to a 120K medical bill. It adds 500 billion in sales tax to what the Pentagon buys. It adds to everyone's rent - rent has to pay the sales tax. Only, FT would be the highest sales tax on earth -- and it would be on things like rent, medical care, even the space shuttle, for NASA.
Its a bunch of nonsense, utter nonsense.
12FlyMe 2 years ago
You need to check your facts. The fair tax doesn't cut federal taxes, it simply changes the way federal taxes are collected so that's it's more fair. Whatever complaints you have about the fair tax applies more so to our current income tax system. It's federal spending that's nonsense, not the fair tax.
Piscivorus 2 years ago
Everyone gets the prebate!
aaronstevens1 3 years ago
FairTax - untaxes the poor by giving them more of their pay check and no sales tax on the basic necessities of life. The want to pay more taxes....their 'choice'.
The FairTax 'replaces' the taxes embedded in the cost of items already. So the only difference is you 'see' the amount of tax you pay on the receipt, you keep more of your pay check and April 15th is just another day :)
IF YOU SUPPORT IT, CALL YOUR ELECTED REPS AND TELL THEM TO CO-SPONSOR THE FAIRTAX BILL FOR 2009!!
BritBoyProductions 3 years ago
1) you say the middle class doesn't get the rebate. everyone gets the prebate
2) you say there will be a drastic increase in the sales tax that will hurt the middle class. everything you buy right now contains embedded taxes and costs (payroll, corporate, compliance, etc) from the suppliers, distributors, retailers. the fairtax replaces them. revenue neutral. prices don't change. keep all your paycheck. toursists and pimps pay it. no price changes. read the fairtax book and learn!
dulcechristo 3 years ago
Not only (as answered various times) would the middle-class families qualify for the prebate, but there wouldn't be a drastic increase in sales tax, it would replace the imbedded tax that is currently in sales items already. I would highly encourage you to re-read both books, and pay attention to how it REPLACES the imbedded tax in items, not adds to it.
terinbune 3 years ago
I guess even if the middle classes overall taxes go down its still not good the bourgeoisie pay a higher rate.
What I do respect is the question didnt come from the base of the government needs every dime it spends.
batcivic 3 years ago
EVERYONE gets the rebates. Period. Why is this so misunderstood?
Honestly - why is this not totally embraced by America? No IRS. Everyone gets a $6000+ check. You pay as you go and embedded taxes go away, causing retail prices to compensate and level the playing field...
Drug dealers pay taxes when they buy cars... 12 million illegal immigrants suddenly become tax payers... the rich get taxed on their yachts and lose all loopholes...
Seriously, America - wth?
cdmytc 3 years ago 2
I'm sure this has already been answered, but hopefully by reading the books you realize that every household receives the prebate, not just the poor. You are untaxed up to the poverty level of spending, and then the more you spend on NEW goods and services the more tax you pay. Treating people equally, what a novel concept!
cphine 3 years ago 2
to address the original video post. I've read both books and the bill. there is nothing in ether saying only the poor would get the prebate. Every head of household gets a check or DD for there tax burden up to there poverty level speanding. if anyone can quote the bill as saying otherwise I'd be interested in seeing it.
laudanum4u 3 years ago 5
that is a really good point. for one thing if this policy is put on place immidiately thier will be more inpoverise people.
smoothbrother69 3 years ago
How so?
BlueNight134 3 years ago
because a higher sales tax will raise the price of goods and therefore raise the poverty line.
smoothbrother69 3 years ago
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From BHI/fairtaxorg:"Households in the lowest income band, with an (AGI) of less than $10,000 annually, would benefit because they would receive the prebate that would more than offset any higher cost of purchasing goods.Households in the top income category, with more than $150,000 in annual income, would also gain as they do not have to pay their highest marginal tax rates. Mid-income category households would lose because the Fair Tax would impose a relatively higher tax rate on them."
Diskatop 3 years ago
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From BHI/fairtaxorg:"Households in the lowest income band, with an (AGI) of less than $10,000 annually, would benefit because they would receive the prebate that would more than offset any higher cost of purchasing goods.Households in the top income category, with more than $150,000 in annual income, would also gain as they do not have to pay their highest marginal tax rates. Mid-income category households would lose because the Fair Tax would impose a relatively higher tax rate on them."
Diskwin 3 years ago
The American Farm Bureau, "The Voice of Agriculture" and the National Taxpayers Union are now supporters of the FairTax.
privateeyeman 3 years ago 6
everyone is so concerned about the middle class. i suggest you stop thinking about what group you belong to, and start thinking as individuals... More people are concerned with what will happen to govt's tax stream than they are with themselves. How will the govt operate? With a $9.7 trillion national debt, we should demand that the fed cut spending massively! Even before FT could ever become law, fed spending, and the 16th ammendment would have to be addressed.
2008HLB 3 years ago
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I suggest you stop thinking as selfish individuals and start thinking about what is good for the nation. The FT/NST is supposedly revenue neutral, so the tax stream stays basicaly the same under it in the years that can be accurately forecast. So it has no effect on the debt. The clear and undebateable(if you accept fairtaxorg's own research) fact is that it would raise the taxes of the middle classes 10-100%.
Paris hilton gets a tax cut, maids across America get a tax hike.
Diskatopia777 3 years ago
You are probably correct about the effect FT would have on national debt. This debt is unexcuseable. Our politicians, both dems and repubs continually sell us out when it comes to this. At least we can agree that the national debt is a HUGE problem. If i ran my business like the fed does, i'd be in jail. They should be too...
2008HLB 3 years ago 7
@2008HLB It is a catch 22.
We could be screwed if FT significantly reduces government income with the way it spends money today. Now if the government actually stopped wasting so much freaking money at the federal level, it wouldn't need so much money in the first place!
scenesonn 1 year ago
This is ridiculous to say it is "not debateable" i am in the middle class, speaking as an "individual" (look it up if you need to) i would be better off under the FTax plan, period. I would have more control over my own money and future. If i want to pay less in taxes, i change my spending habits. Sure it would be a sacrifice, but under current plan, the harder i work, i have no choice but to pay more and more of my earnings in taxes... again, MY EARNINGS.
2008HLB 3 years ago
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See you are out for #1, and could ccare less what happens to the nation, that is your problem-- try thinking about the good of the nation instead of your self-interests.
The point is how it effects EVERYONE, and on average the middle classes will see a 10-100% hike in effective taxes, while the top earners will have a tax cut of up to 50% or more.
If you want to live in the world of Soylent Green, you would have it under the FT/NST.
Diskatopia777 3 years ago
Soylent Green? You must be kidding. Clearly you have me pegged. LOL If people were as concerned with "individual rights" as they are about the "collective," we'd all be alot better off. The rights of the individual should be the most sacred thing we protect. You should try moving to a socialist country, perhaps you'd be happier. Preservation of my individual freedom to choose,to control my own future, is what is most important. And as a "middle classer" i'd have it under the FT.
2008HLB 3 years ago 4
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You have all those rights you listed NOW, and if one is middle class the FT/NST would harm them greatly-- it is funny how most FT fans spout about how bad taxes are now, yet the FT will RAISE THEIR TAXES.
The FT/NST harms the "well-being" of the mids while raising the "well-being" of the wealthy greatly (source:fairtaxorg, BHI, Table 11 tiny url 593htl)... which is pretty much the situation in Soylent Green, where a plutocracy control the nation/food while the masses are eating themselves.
Diskwin 3 years ago
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You seem to be assuming that you have a choice under the FT of whether to pay taxes on your money-- the problem is, if you spend the money, it is taxed, at 23%i/30%e. Unless spent eventually, what good is your money? None, it is paper.
Unless you enjoy living in a shack,eating beans, and using newspapers for tp, the FT will tax you more, maybe not the day you get the money, but if you ever want to USE the money (you can always mattress it until you die, but is that "freedom"?) boom, 23%.
Diskwin 3 years ago
fortunately this is just not true. We WOULD have more power and choice under FT. Those who are most afraid of FT are politicians who lose their ability to buy votes by manipulating taxes, and lobbyists who game the system by getting big corporate interests tax breaks. Can you imagine? NO ONE would be able to be "tax exempt" NO ONE would have to file a tax return, and you could choose to spend your money in a way that would lessen your tax burden... used goods... no beans or shacks necessary.
2008HLB 3 years ago
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Incorreect, according to the data at fairtaxorg, again,their own data shows... if one makes roughly 20K$ to 150-200K$, unless one wants to have a lower standard of living than under the FT/NST, on average one will pay more in taxes under an FT. AGAIN, this is from THEIR OWN DATA. SO sure, I guess you could call it a choice-- the avergage middle class person can "choose" to pay more taxes to live as he does now, or can see his quality of life and "well-being" diminsh.
Woohoo, some choice, lol.
Diskwin 3 years ago
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PS-- unfortunately, some US citizens could be tax exempt totally-- those with enough wealth to live abroad if they so desire. Living in the Bahamas, paying no US tax on their income, buying up real estate in Manhattan and other markets with their totally untaxed income... meanwhile, again, the middle class man has that wonderful choice you mentioned-- pay more in taxes or suffer a diminished "well-being"/quality of life.
Huzzah.
Diskwin 3 years ago
Well said. It's time to take it out of the hands of the government.
I'm so sick of hearing people say "What is the Government gonna do for me?"
Bush said it best the other day when responding to a reporters question saying "Don't you think you should tell the American people to conserve?". Bush replied "I think the American people can balance their own check books and turn down their own thermostats, they dont need us to tell them."
MY EARNINGS. Read the book! Pass the Bill!
BaseBallsBest 3 years ago
The fair tax would raise the taxes of the middle classes-- that fact is really not debateable at this point, as supporters' own favorite biased economist thinktank's papers admit this fact, repeatedly.
Any FT/NST fan arguing against that fact is arguing against supporters' own research, and is truly confused.
"Fair" Tax aka National Sales Tax-Inclusive aka "NaSTi" will never pass,thankfully, although I truly wish some of these fans had to live under it, lol.
Diskatopia 3 years ago
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"The authors write that opponents of the FairTax are Marxists, liars, propagandists, uneducated, lazy, manipulative and/or "wallow in envy of those who have more":
Using such language, scattered throughout this book, is a common radio talk-show tactic (one of the authors is a radio talk jock) intended to preempt readers from listening to or analyzing another point of view." C. O'Connor
You will see the Boortzbots doing this very thing throughout FT/NST comments.
"Fair" Tax= FAIL.
Diskatopia 3 years ago
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If you are just looking into the "Fair" Tax aka National Sales Tax-inclusive aka "NaSTi"-- if you understand the difference between "marginal" and "effective" rates, look at the numbers, don't fall for the scam:
Current EFFECTIVE Federal rates for he middle classes- about 8-18%, and that INCLUDES all FICA and CIT. -- source, CBO
Effective federal rates of the FT/NST for the middle classes, 19%. --Beacon Hill Inst., FT supporters
Current effective federal rate of top20% = 26%. -- CBO
Diskatopia 3 years ago
If I could use crayons here, I could probably put it in a way you could better understand. I see business isn't your only failure. Seems the English language gives you a hard time too. What part of 'some households' can you not understand? I can see now why you've failed so many times. Isn't it time to feed the roaches?
privateeyeman 3 years ago 2
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See the table above the quote, o' dense one, "some households" is those making $10K to $150K-- you can be delusional in your jealousy of me all you want (yes, poor me and my $250K+ worth of real estate equity, lol), the numbers-- FT/NST SUPPORTERS' own numbers-- show you to be a fool, as those who wallow in their ignorance always are.
I can see easily why you've never failed at anything-- you've never DONE anything, lol.
Diskatopia 3 years ago
I can't stop laughing! Jealous of what? If you think $250k is a lot, you need to go look at real estate prices again. Where I live, that would buy a trailer on a half acre. But then again, when you live in the low rent district, 250k would be a lot. Let's you and I compare net worth, then we'll see who the failure is. At the very least, I wasn't stupid enough to post my personal information all over the internet for anyone to see! AND my wife's name too! What an imbecile. Now rat me out again.
privateeyeman 3 years ago 4
Keep movin' on up, Baretta, lol.
In p.i.e. we see the basic example of the FT fan-- naive, not understanding basic economic concepts (effective vs. marginal, equity vs. home cost, etc.), spewing nothing but delusuional ad hominems, unable to challenge any data posted, often because he doesn't understand it and won't take the time to try-- he'll take the word of "economists" instead, unable to realize the data posted is from economists, those who support the FT.
"Fair" Tax = FAIL.
Diskatopia 3 years ago
"In the aggregate, 'some' households would not be as well off for the first couple of years. However, a stronger incentive to invest and save would cut into consumption, and the greater incentive to work would cut into leisure."
What that means: Once people learn that they'll be bringing home what they earn, they'll have the incentive to be more productive. More productive, more money for spending and saving. Yes, the more you work, the less time you'll have for leisure. But that's your choice.
privateeyeman 3 years ago 2
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Incorrect, as usual. What it means is that to tread water, just staying even with where they were before, they would have to work more to have the same quality of life.
What part of "would not be as well off" can you not understand?
Diskatopia 3 years ago
clearly she didn't either read about or comprehend the Fair Tax plan... there is no one who is "not eligable" for the rebate (more precisely the prebate). That's what makes it fair. Everyone gets the same amount. For the poor they can end up paying negative taxes. For the rich, its a drop in the bucket of how much they will spend in taxes. For the middle class it will be somewhere in between. I'm not saying its a good idea, but she should at least get her facts straight...
haygoodfly 3 years ago
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She was incorrect on that, but a few clarifications:
The poor already have "negative taxes" in most cases, thanks to the personal deduction(s) and EIC, among other things.
The middle classes on average will pay more in taxes (roughly 10-40% or more higher effective federal tax rates under an FT/NST on average).
The wealthy (top 20%) will on average have a 20-100% tax cut (yes 100% if they spend the year in the Bahamas).
The FT/NST is a very, very bad idea for the United States.
Diskatopia 3 years ago
Nothing is sadder than hearing FT/NST supporters complaining about "working to pay Uncle Sam" and then claiming they want the "fair" tax for "freedom!" The FT/NST would only make things worse for these people if they amke $10K-150K a year, as the following quote helpes show...
(continued)
Diskwin 3 years ago
Here is a direct quote from a BHI paper at the supporting FT site:
"In the aggregate, some households* would not be as well off for the first couple of years**.However, a stronger incentive to invest and save would cut into consumption, and the greater incentive to work would cut into leisure."
Beacon Hill Institute, "The Economic Effects of the FairTax", page 31, Table 11
* Those making from $10K to $150K a year
**in truth, 5-10 or more
**
Diskwin 3 years ago
wow...I wasn't expecting that. Do you have any news articles on that?
chwparker 3 years ago
The right-leaning thinktank, Beacon Hill Institute, that did much of the "research" touted by the FT/NST's financial backers on their main FT/NST site, admit that the FT/NST is "regressive across income."
Look at the numbers--they are telling the truth!
They then claim it is progressive vs. expenditures.. well, DUH! It's a sales tax, of course it is, it is essentially FLAT. However, even when looked at across expenditures, the middle classes are paying more in taxes.
Diskwin 3 years ago
cute chick
steelermia 3 years ago
The answer to your question is that the prebate is based on family size, not income. Every legal household gets it. It is based on family size rather than income to ensure that what you said does not occur.
chwparker 3 years ago
The prebate joke -- your kid could be dying of cancer, and you spend 400,000 to keep her alive. You get 150,000 in SALES taxes on t his medical bill. Guess what your prebate is to offset this 150,000? About 1,000 dollars, if its a 5 month illness.
You guys are dumber than dog do. This prebate is a fuching joke if you get sick or have other high expenses. And working poor people get sick you idiots. How the fuch are they gonna pay these bullshit taxes?
MakeMyPower 3 years ago
that's not how the Fairtax works, MakemyPower. Just to let you guys know, MakeMyPower has several youtube names (such as MarkDouglasC) because he can't find anyone to agree with his lies on the Fairtax. The truth is, people who are tied to our current system (IRS employees, Tax Preparers, K Street Lobbyists) are dead set against this, as they fear for their jobs. But I promise you, Mark, you'll be able to find another job under the Fairtax with its economic boom.
chwparker 3 years ago
simple, enforce tne fair tax laws which will distribute taxes evenly amoung the people. Next, by all means you get rid of the income tax law which is unapportion, unconstitutional, and dentrimental to the American people.
dyno6mite 3 years ago
She didn't read the book. EVERYONE will recieve a prebate. Even those who she thinks is an evil rich person.
chulahagh 3 years ago
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I'd fuck her though
chulahagh 3 years ago
she clearly slept through her econ 101 class too...
2008HLB 3 years ago
is it possible for this girl to be more stupid? did she say she read and understood the book? Her comment is like saying "i understood the concept of Moby Dick, but i've always hated long drum solos" She obviously missed the part that all americans would get the prebate. Was she trying to mis speak or what? She's probably going to vote for Hillary... Hey UGA! Put the cliff's notes down, put your glasses on, stop drinking at frat parties, and read it again...
2008HLB 3 years ago
Maybe she likes that movie Drum Line. Call me Ishmale.
MakeMyPower 3 years ago
With all do respect, this is NOT the right way to spread the word of the Fairtax. Maybe she just misunderstood the concept. She was being respectful, and we should do the same. otherwise, why should people listen to us if we're going to be rude to them? that's what killed Ron Paul's campaign.
chwparker 3 years ago
you are correct... i just get mad when people misrepresent the fair tax. She did not read the book though... that is clear.
2008HLB 3 years ago
I do too, but when I argue, I do it more for those who have never heard of the Fairtax or want to learn more about it than those that are just lying to protect their own self interests, whether they be IRS employees, lobbyists, tax preparers, etc
chwparker 3 years ago 4
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Diskatopia 3 years ago
actually, that's what our current system does.
chwparker 3 years ago
No, try again, look at the numbers provided by SUPPORTERS of the FT/NST, Beacon HIll-- those making the top 10% of income see their taxes roughly cut in half, while those in the middle classes see their taxes rise 20-60%.
It is simple... 13%<20%<26%...
Try to get past the disengenuous propaganda and subterfuge of the backers and look at the numbers.
Diskatopia777 3 years ago
well not that I'm an advocate of wealth envy, so arguments that try to play on that loose credibitily with me. But at any rate, what you said is still not true. Taxes will not rise for the middle class. the rich will actually pay more into the FT system as rich people buy more new items (and more expensive ones at that) and eat out more whereas the poor and middleclass will benefit more from the prebate.still the rich will recieve a dramatic relief in their tax burden just like everyone else.
chwparker 3 years ago