Francis Schaeffer February 21, 1982 (Part 1)

[MrJohnnyBulldawg]

There are geniuses on both sides of the Isle. Newton, Augustine, Acquinas, Erasmus, Pascal, Bach, and many others, exhibit the highest level of understanding. Likewise, humanistic/materialists like Kant, Descarte, Marx, Nietzsche, Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, Fuocalt, Hitchens, Dawkins, and many others, have the same ability to reason, leaving without excuse when they reject the simple Gospel message. Its about taking responsibility for our idolatry and receiving mercy or blaming God for tempting us.

[DeBunker7]

Excellent insight MrJohnny.

[MrJohnnyBulldawg]

The reason why it is so provocative for someone like Schaeffer to confront the culture is that he speaks cogently. He is kind, and yet uncompromising. He is tolerant of weakness (as the Bible is) but intolerant of idolatry and self determination. He is unassailable in his sincerity and logic. Spirit and soul are confronted by the intellectualism which cynics hold sacred being debunked by Truth. They can only attack the individual, as the idea is too much to confront by their own standards.

[eric80510]

@MrJohnnyBulldawg I was thinking along the same lines but you put it into words better than I could. It is refreshing to read comments like yours my friend. God bless. Way too many trolls out there you know? Attecking the individual instead of the message I see in politics especially from the left. Do you left its because the democrat base is not very intelligent that they get away with it? anyway take care.

[napoleon117]

@yoyosweetiepie ...At that point we can sit down and have a conversation on what kind of society we want to live in. What are the consequences of not punishing things like theft and murder? Well the odds of anyone being able to go freely about their lives is greatly diminished. However if a person thinks a command comes from God, how do we change his mind? If he's convinced enough we can't and that is a dangerous thing.

[napoleon117]

@yoyosweetiepie We are conscious beings with a set of inherently positive and negative mental states. If you asked someone in horrendous amounts of pain what their basis was for describing the sensation as "bad" I hope we could all agree that would be retarded. All it takes to be moral is to come to the realization that our actions affect one another and if we're going to enjoy our time on this planet together we have to respect each others desires and limit the fulfillment of our own....

[napoleon117]

@yoyosweetiepie The mentality that we must have a higher power to obey in order to be moral deeply disturbs me. It effectively stops any conversation about what we should do as a society. No matter how horrible the consequences of an action if someone had internalized this mentality nothing would convince him to change his mind. Th answer to your question, "And how can you say that this or that is good for me if I do not believe it is?" is by having a conversation...(continued in next)

[napoleon117]

@yoyosweetiepie I agree that living in a world where we love one another is great. The benefits of living in such a world is evident simply by comparing societies built on those ideals (caring for each other) versus those that are not. The fact (true or not) that God commanded you to do this does not add anything to the equation, it is just his opinion. If God does exist he could be right about morality. But the fact that he commands something does not make it right.

[napoleon117]

@yoyosweetiepie Your African example was very random. sub Saharan Africa is being overrun by religious beliefs, country after country is passing terrifying bills against things like homosexual activity with prison time and execution as punishment in response to recent efforts by evangelical groups (from America) to spread their ideas there. Of course that wasn't there intention but they are so convinced their beliefs are good they could not conceive of negative consequences of spreading them.

[napoleon117]

@yoyosweetiepie Your also oversimplifying social programs. It's true there are plenty of abuses and the system is in desperate need of overhaul but there is no denying the elimination of poverty among the elderly and the decrease in the percentage of people below the poverty line. There is also nothing inherently humanist about welfare programs. As a humanist if I was convinced that getting rid of them would benefit our country, than I would naturally support that.

[napoleon117]

@yoyosweetiepie I'm a humanist and do not believe in a higher power. I have a lot to respond to so here goes. When humanists say that man must be the measure of morality there not saying "whatever I feel". What they mean is think about what the other person would want you to do before acting. You can find this philosophy in the teachings of Christ when he says to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. You can also find it in philosophers predating Christ by centuries.

[napoleon117]

The man is clearly intelligent in describing his world view. However it amazes me that he thinks that America is getting worse. He's clearly old enough to have lived through times of segregation, religious bigotry and open sexism. We were only just beginning to conquer some of these problems (thanks in large part to humanist movements) when he made this speech and yet he speaks of a past golden age of Judeo-Christian values...what is he talking about?

[yoyosweetiepie]

@napoleon117 Humanism (and socialism) is going to end up devaluing the human. When we look at the liberal political parties and ideas in our country, we can see at least three to four decades of promises made to minorities and poor people with legislation and welfare modes enacted that have NOT helped these people. Things are NOT better by believing in government or man as savior.

[yoyosweetiepie]

@napoleon117 I would ask you to observe Europe and Africa. Humanism and socialism have devalued the human. These people are totally dependent now upon government to save them. They are ahead of the United States in this collapse of Western Civilization. I would ask ALL people who have blindly bought into humanism and the "new theology" (such as Jim Wallis) to try and understand the origins of humanism. It's "feel good" for certain.

[yoyosweetiepie]

@napoleon117 When man begins to understand that we are to love one another and give to one another (with freewill, not force of a government) because God made us all and commanded us to love one another, then we will truly have an answer. Man does not give himself meaning. If he does, each man will have his own meaning and definitions (relativism). And how can you say that this or that is good for me if I do not believe it is? I guess you hope the government will control our thought life.

[Zwemer100]

Great video

[revroy1204]

Remarkable man with a superb intellect and understanding. Thank God for this hero of the Faith!

[mytruepower2]

What's really sad is that it is possible, through mere logical thought, to establish the temporality of matter, the need for a non-temporal first cause, and as such the existence of God. It's also possible to establish that non-temporality means unchanging, to establish that God can communicate unchangingly, that he has always had someone to communicate with, and as such, that God is multiple and one, just as christianity says. People don't seem to want to think anymore, though.

[danger0usknowledge]

So this is the famous Francis Schaeffer. What would he say about his son? Actually, I prefer the son & what he has to say about Obama,108.9 & the wonderboys in the RNC. The amazing combo of the religious right wing & the criminal elements of the RNC are trying to takeover the political & religious dialogue by eliminating moderates just like they did in the "good old days" of the 1950's. **Hell slave owning is in the Bible so if it's alright with HIM, it's alright with me**& bla bla bla.

[yoyosweetiepie]

@danger0usknowledge Hi, I don't recall in my Bible that there is any scripture telling anyone to own slaves. Now, I do recall that there is scripture of encouragement and admonition to slaves themselves on how they should live in such a condition. If anything, our Bibles tell us to love one another. It is not a good argument to say that slavery is okay because it was in the Bible. I think you and people like that misunderstand.

[danger0usknowledge]

@yoyosweetiepie I think you left out that

I was paraphrasing what a typical present day defender

of slavery might say or believe without saying. (I think the latter)

Slavery is accepted in the Bible which might cause

a literal believer to say that, "hey, it was alright with God

so it's alright by me". The ** is a sarcasm alert.

One thing about populist conservatives

they do pine for "the good old days" or "our southern way of life".

The movie "The Help" has a few words to say about that.

[awakenedinseattle]

I used to be an evangelical Christian -- even attended an evangelical Christian seminary for a number of years.

During that time, I found evangelical Christians to be much like everyone else, unfortunately -- in that they listened to the evidence they WANTED to hear, and closed their ears to all other evidence.

This is tragic, in my opinion. And it's tragic because the truth is so much bigger -- and more beautiful -- than can be contained in one philosophy/theology.

[DeBunker7]

That's been the case with many of my friends, and very close friends who loved me and nurtured me in my young years and then gave up on Christ. My feeling is you become what you hang out with. What you put around you...you become.  Influence is powerful. I always wondered how people could stay on fire for Jesus for 50 years like some pastors do. It was only until I sought out and read some of their stuff and hung out with some did I begin to see a key in all this. Matt 16:17-19

[awakenedinseattle]

Hi, DeBunker7. For anyone to "give up on Christ" is truly heartbreaking. And although many of my evangelical colleagues would accuse me of having given up on Christ, NOTHING could be further from the truth.

Christ means everything to me -- everything. He is my first thought when I wake in the morning and my last thought when I retire at night.

Christ hasn't changed, even though he seems much more powerful to me today—and far more all-encompassing. My field of vision has expanded though.

[jlockmer]

It's not contained in a philosophy, rather it is contained in a person: Christ Jesus.

[melsteam04]

@awakenedinseattle Why is it I find the same or similar arguments espoused which you are proposing here. I've seen several times in "good, well-meaning citizens, an "authoritative" description by well-meanings like yourself, without any authority other than "there is a more beautiful truth which isn't in the Bible".It seems the Bible w/ the Koran tells you what the word of God is. Perhaps the end result of this thinking is a "no value-system spoken of here.

[jonwalliser]

@awakenedinseattle

i hear you, i grew up in church all my life, and I got sick of it all. In the end its not about other christians, its about you and what you believe. I wish you the best

[CeciliaLind]

Francis Shaeffer was not an evangelical wacko! He was a wise man, and you should value what he has to say.

[Steadno]

no proof of a god or gods!

[legaleagle137]

Anyways< i just want to echo the below post. In my opinion, Mr. Shaeffer is an evangelical wacko. If he is the "watchman" on the wall, then every major university in this country failed us miserably.

[legaleagle137]

Moreover, does he find the bible, or any religious document to be more authoritative than the Constitution or the laws of his state of residence? I find there to be nothing more arbitrary and capricious than the adoption of a system of values based upon a book of stories -- especially when many people fall into faith based upon their birth into a family of a certain faith. How is it not arbitrary to believe that gays shouldn't be able to marry because the "bible says so."

[EmbroideredFlower]

@legaleagle137 From your name you imply that you have something to do with American law. If so you should enjoy reading Strobel books about the legal aspects of the Bible,Christ and all the absolute truths therein. I think he was an agnostic(?) and those books are the result of what he found. glad to see you are seeking Truth (youmust be or you wouldn't have ended up here) anyway, have a great day and enjoy some Strobel books.

[legaleagle137]

I think Mr. Shaeffer has some misconceptions about our concept of government. He argues that state and federal laws are "arbitrary" because they are simply a determination by a set of people that a given policy is good for society. There is some truth to that statement, but our government is far more complicated and protective of our rights than that -- consider the role of elections (the consent of the people), the role of the judiciary, and the execution of the laws by officers of the law.

[faszika]

LOL christian fanatics :))

[sethruse]

BenAliGtor has been hanging out with Frank Jr.

[BenAliGtor]

"BenAliGtor has been hanging out with Frank Jr."

In many ways I have more respect for Frank than the old man. I cannot embrace his Orthodoxy (capital "O") but I think it has more substance than the happy clappy, mile-wide-and-an-inch-deep evangelicalism that typifies the Coral Ridge audience to which this presentation was addressed.

[readchesterton]

26 years later proves that Francis was a watchman on the wall...

[shilohwillcome]

I love Francis

[FritsPeter]

Such a tremendous loss, that the man died so early. When you came within his circle, you were safe.

[BenAliGtor]

I used to deeply admire this man. However, the more I study his words and how they have been co-opted by Anti-Intellectual Right, the more I see an apologetic for America as a Reconstructionist Theocracy. The danger is that in the end such visions of 'what God deems for America' and the 'biblical principles' upon which they supposedly rest are as arbitrary in their premises as the 'humanism' Schaeffer deplores.

[DeBunker7]

Sorry, I don't get what you are saying. What does "visions of what God 'deemed' have to do with this? Or words that have been "co-opted"? I like his contrasting of truth vs. error and I realize that is a sensitive issue with nonbelievers. Thanks for the comment!

[elar4563]

he gave serveral reasons for his positions why have'nt you? For instance why is the right anti-intellectual? You should give some examples to your points. But you have none. Typical left wing propagandist.

[BenAliGtor]

"why have'nt you?

Why "have'nt" I, indeed? Learn to spell like an adult, and perhaps we'll discuss the matter.

[shilohwillcome]

BenAliGtor, I'm still not understanding what your trying to say here. Could you explain further?

[sethruse]

Hanging out with Frank Jr. eh

[ntwrightsmom]

What group is he speaking to?

[DeBunker7]

I think its Regents U, but not positive.

[LaneCh]

He's speaking to Coral Ridge Presbyterian in Florida. This is part of the DVD A Christian Mainfesto.

[homereap]

@DeBunker7 It's Wheaton College in Chicago

[homereap]

@DeBunker7 It's Wheaton College in Chicago.

[4chris10s]

Bravo Francis!!

[martesco]

Thanks for this great video DeBunker7. Saludos! MTYMEX

[mthmty]

whoa are you?

[shilohwillcome]

what?