Perfection vs. Progress

[JoelRA22]

We are saved through grace but that grace makes us want to and do good works. Grace isn't an excuse to do nothing.

[TheNatureBoyWooooo]

I would like to disagree that sanctification is "exhausting". Through human effort it is exhausting. I am being made aware of my sin more and more every day. And the more I am aware of my sin the more I am aware I cannot stop it. In that I realize that God must do it for me throught the work of the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit. It wasn't difficult for Gideon to win the battle. God stacked the odds so much against him, that he couldn't win. It had to be God and not Gideon's that won.

[promisedgrace]

This is terrible. God's grace by faith is all we need in "justification" and "glorification" but somehow we have to work hard by our effort to be "sanctified"...no wonder people are leaving the church because of this false doctrine. Salvation is by faith through grace too...

[GodLovesUs100]

@promisedgrace Well keep in mind we are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.That does not mean we can save ourselves, I agree it's all by God's grace and we could do nothing without him.But once we are born-again, we don't just sit back and kick up our feet, waiting for God to mature us.We must discipline ourselves, battle with the flesh, overcome the devil and the world, and keep our eyes on him.Meanwhile his grace enables us to do all these things :)

[patty7beth]

@promisedgrace He's not saying we work for salvation. He preaches salvation through faith and grace alone. He's talking about the work we do as we grow in Christ to become more like Jesus. Paul speaks clearly on this.

God continues to work with and in us - we do strive to be more like Jesus. Nothing to do with salvation.

[promisedgrace]

@patty7beth The bible doesn't say to "strive" to be more like Jesus...it says "strive to enter His rest" (Heb 4:11). If we say that we receive salvation by grace through faith which I completely agree with then how I live my life is the same, no different. "Just as you received Him so walk in Him" (Col 2:6). Don't be foolish to think that it is any different...that any of our striving can make us like Jesus (Gal 3:1-3) I have been united with Him and we are one spirit (1Cor 6:17). grace to u

[opendtuning]

"Paul wrote the bible" "That's huge really" "You will want that on your resame" "What he has accomplished" now Mark Driscoll's guardian Angel is as nervous as can be.

[destine4hope]

The rest of Verse 12 of Philippians 3 says "I press on so that I may 'lay hold' of that for for which also I was laid hold of by Christ"

"Lay hold" seems to imply a possibility of becoming "perfect"

Verse 15 says "Let us therefore, 'as many as are perfect' have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude God will reveal that also to you"

"As many as ARE perfect" seems to be talking about people who are among them that have the attitude of "pressing onward toward the goal"

[destine4hope]

He hasn't even read Wesley, apparently. He never says that "you never have to repent and learn and grow" when you are made perfect. He says quite the contrary. Being as Christ calls you to be ("perfect" - complete) is not synonymous with "you know everything about God, and He has revealed everything He has the capacity to reveal." We are still limited.

"Just like an athlete wants to hit every shot" Yeah, he definitely doesn't understand the Biblical definition of perfection.

[destine4hope]

Then did Jesus not really mean what He said in Matthew 5:48 when He said, "Therefore, you are to be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect."?

The word "Perfect" used here does not mean flawless. It means complete or mature; whole.

In light of that, how can a Christian claim that no one can be complete or mature in Christ?

That goes directly against Christ's command to be "perfect".

Is He not powerful enough to completely transform us?

Again, is HE not powerful enough, not are we not...?

[SUPERPHANTAZM]

Thanks. Lust seems to be my weakness. I hate it because it is pretty vile and equates a would be saint with the run-of-the mill scum.

[SUPERPHANTAZM]

Has anyone here conquered lust?

[macroheart]

@SUPERPHANTAZM I'm still struggling hard with this, over the past few years I've been so used to just looking lustfully at any woman I want, but since I've repented I feel remorse and try to not look. However I'm starting to conquer lust, along with porn, etc. I recommend much prayer and asking for the Holy Spirit to continue to fill you and guide you to conquer lust. May the Lord be with you brotha, I'll pray for you.

[Virgiltobias]

So why should we go about being sanctified if we're going to be made perfect anyway?

[ryuhaneda]

Sometimes I think miss this point. This is an honest and good question. God bless you as you continue searching for the answer. Just don't stop searching!

[promisedgrace]

@Virgiltobias Now that is a beautifully logical question. And the answer is as logical as the question. When we come to Christ and believe Him we become a new creation. "Being Sanctified" is the process that we begin to put on all that is our inheritance and live in the reality of who He has already made us to be. We go about being sanctified so that we walk in truth and the abundance of His life in us becomes our tangible experience -if not we walk in a lie that steals His life in us Jn 10:10

[promisedgrace]

@Virgilt Now that is a beautifully logical question. And the answer is as logical as the question. When we come to Christ and believe Him we become a new creation. "Being Sanctified" is the process that we begin to put on all that is our inheritance and live in the reality of who He has already made us to be. We go about being sanctified so that we walk in truth and the abundance of His life in us becomes our tangible experience -if not we walk in a lie that steals His life in us Jn 10:10

[agrogers1]

1Th 2:10 ESV You are witnesses, and God also, how holy and righteous and blameless was our conduct toward you believers.

That seems to suggest that Paul thought, and the Lord agreed, that they *conducted* themselves in a holy and righteous and blameless manner. I dont know how much more strongly Paul could have made that point.

[kjartemis]

Isn't Job called perfect 3 times by god?

[macroheart]

@kjartemis I remember him being called blameless and upright, but I don't remember perfect

[agapenow]

agreed! 2 cor 3...glory to glory :). positionaly perfect, practically not so much :) God is faithful-1 Cor 1

[silverlakes211]

cute red shoes..........youre not turning into a sissy vest top wearing church boy are you mark?......

[WildcatTech]

I love Mark's style and Mars Hill's mission, and like the intent of this message. However, he really needs to READ John Wesley's sermon that he refers to about attaining perfection in this life before denouncing it. In I.1.-I.7, Wesley denounces the view that Mark says he's espousing and instead Wesley lays out an explanation that in large part Mark would agree with!

[pricens42]

This guy is preaching a false gospel. We are to rest in Christs finished work. I am righteous by faith in jesus. There is no work that will get you anything. This cant be anymore lost.

[hol0610]

I think you missed the point here. He is not saying work saves you. He is saying because we have faith in Jesus we want to change to be more like him. The problem is that we cannot obtain perfection (Hince the need for Jesus). He is telling people to not get down on themselves when they falter. He is not preaching a false gospel in fact he had a great sermon about faith and works a couple of months ago. check it out. Remember fatih without works is worthless. Cannot have faith in jesus w/o works

[jakreidler]

What I don't understand is how perfection is universally defined. Does it mean simply to not sin after you are saved?

[WeirdoKatie]

That's EXACTLY what he's trying to say...

[mc1smile]

God bless Serbia

[wvtriker]

Thank you, Pastor Mark. The way you explained this is the clearest I've ever heard it put.