@Billyking1313 Friend, you'd be much closer to the truth if you said that Catholics were the victims of ethnic cleansing in the 19th century in Ireland. Tell me precisely which ethnic group you think the church his currently cleansing in Ireland.
@wordonfirevideo - Ne Temere! It is alive and well in Ireland. This Sunday past a document was handed out at the Catholic mass explaining to Catholics that in any mixed marriage that permission to marry would not be given unless the non Catholic spouse to be, signs the Ne Temere document - it is a statutory requirement in Ireland within the Catholic church thus slowly but surely increasing the Catholic population to the detriment of the other Churches in Ireland.
@Billyking1313 The Church requires that the Catholic party in a mixed marriage agree to do all in his or her power to raise the children Catholic and the spouse to be is asked to witness this oath. I don't see what you could possibly find objectionable in this. If someone doesn't want to do it, then they shouldn't get married in church.
My mom was an English Protestant who married my Irish dad and they eventually moved to Ireland - they had 8 children. She had no objection to us being baptised and raised Catholic. Many years later she herself was received into the CC, and she is a very devout woman, who loves Our Lady to bits! It can be a means of Evangelisation and not Ethnic cleansing as you put it!
I am Catholic and i participate in Catholic and Protestant worship services. WE are all brothers and sisters in Christ. WE only have one enemy and that is not 'each other'. That is satan.
I just love how Catholics are so humble. May we all be devoted to Christ.
God doesn't require a religion for salvation. God calls. It's all God's work. =D
When you can freely worship God by the anointing of holy spirit,WHY DO YOU NEED TO BOW DOWN BEFORE IMAGES ,AND ASK THEM TO PRAY FOR YOU TO JESUS AS IF YOU ARE UNWORTHY TO PRAY DIRECTLY TO JESUS?THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT JESUS CAME FOR,TO CLEANSE MANKIND'S SINS AND MAKE HIM STAND BEFORE GOD.NT TEACHES ANYONE CAN ACCESS GOD THROUGH ONLY INTERCESSOR JESUS.THUS YOU DO EXACTLY OPPOSITE OF WHAT JESUS WANT US TO DO WITH FAITH & ANOINTING OF HOLY SPIRIT BY YOUR PRACTICE OF INTERCESSION OF SAINTS
the rhetoric "church like elements" which i see iscontained in the vatican II docs, in implying that protestants only have church like elements, is in itself EXTREMELY patronizing.
But I would hold it true if by "church like elements" it meant any church without the love of christ. And that is all of us. ALL of us have merely church like elements.
But i doubt very much that anycatholic would even dream of going this far, just as radical protestants would not even give Rome that much
but what you are saying is that even if Rome no longer claims to be the ONLY christian church (and some arch conservative catholics like Malachi Martin deny this even now) you are saying it is the BEST christian church.
this is still manifestly absurd. it does not come from observation of the lives of professing christians, nor from a study of scripture without preconceptions.
unlike my prot associates I have dealings with catholics, so i see that they are as christian as we are
. . . as christian as we are, but, alas, that is not very much. one final point, i hold the protestants les honest that the catholics. WE profess sola scriptura, sola gratia, sola fide. These are Biblical doctrines., BUT we show by our lives we do not believe them. Rome denies them outright. so they are more honest than we are. we hide out unbelief behind hypocrisy, rome is blatant in its unbelief.
The question what gifts does God give to any church may be rephrased what gifts did any church receive from God. and that in turn leads directly to: "what Fruit of the Spirit shows in anyt church?".
thus, there being essentially no fruit there is no gift received. I have no time for catholic bashing or singling out Rome for criticism, but the fact is ALL the churches, all of US , are so obscene that we are the best argument for atheism there is. this is not a valid one, but it is persuasive
@Strefanasha Come on, friend. That's a little strong. I mean, I agree with you that Catholics have done lots of bad things--see my videos on the sex abuse crisis--but you can't say that we've been abandoned by the Holy Spirit.
no, NONE of us have been abandoned by the Holy SPirit. But WE have abandoned Him. As Jesus saiod "you know them by their fruit" our fruit show this
BTW I took Malachi MArtin on good faith. THis was a mistake. It seems that the latin term susbsistit is moer complex and controversial than his use. I should have looked it up before posting, not after
the church subsists in the Catholic Church? Arch Catholic Malachi Martin pointed out that in the original latin of theVatican II docs the word "subsistit" means something quite different from "subsist" in english. in englsh, Marttin said, subsist means contained in but confined to, but in Latin means ONLY contained in and LIMITED TO. thus subsistit means the church of God is ONLY contained in and LIMITED to the Roman Church.
If Barro knows this he is a liar, if not he is ignoranyt
MORE ON THE HISTORY OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ABUSE AND TORTURE IN IRELAND.
The UN Committee against Torture (UNCAT) has found that an independent inquiry should be conducted into what went on in the Catholic run Magdalene Laundries in Ireland. Where there was rampant physical, psychological and sex abuse of the women incarcerated there. These abuses were carried out by Catholic priests and Catholic nuns. They were held for life there, without trial or justice. Rome Rule in Catholic Ireland!!
CATHOLICS ARE PAGANS.THE ONLY REAL POPE WAS ST. PETER THE FIRST ONE JESUS CALLED HIM.BURN THE WITCHES THEY ARE ENEMIES OF GOD.THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL.HOW DO YOU DETERMINE BETWEEN A REAL CHRISTIAN AND A FAKE ONE?THEY KILL THE REAL ONES!
@angelmeade Well, thanks for that burst of 16th century wisdom! And lady, if your last principle is true, you should remove the plank in your own Protestant eye!
You are disgusting, I am an altar boy and have never been touched, I am with 99% of all altar boys with this one. Don't pass out judgement on a billion people so easily.
@178Lawrence You state: "I am an altar boy and have never been touched". They say 1 out of 5 people is Chinese. That's not possible. I know lots of people and none of them is Chinese! - Just like your comment - a classic fallacy of logic and rhetoric.
@178Lawrence@178Lawrence You should learn to recognize fallacious arguments so that in the future, you will recognize them when they are used to refute your contentions. The argument in your previous post is referred to as "statistics of small numbers". Regarding this post, please provide the source of your statistics i.e. "other groups of male adults are about twice as likely to abuse than those who belong to the priesthood." You are correct that child abuse is not unique to clergy.
@Lyc360 I have a very large copy/paste I usually use, but it wouldn't fit here. All you need to do is search up "baptist predators" and "Jehovas Witness abuse cases".
Even then, fathers are BY FAR the most abusive group there is, then there are teachers, coaches, uncles, nursery workers etc etc etc. Their cases are almost never televized, priests ALWAYS are.
@178Lawrence If you had a reliable source that provided comparisons than you would have referenced it without referring to an unnamed "very large copy/paste" source. Abuse by priests is uniquely egregious compared to teachers, coaches, nurser workers, etc. Unlike priests, they do not claim membership in a group vowed to lifelong abstinence from sex of any kind, with any partner, male or female, young or old. Priests were especially trusted greatly increasing the vulnerability of their victims.
@Lyc360 What about abuse by Jehovas Witness leaders or Baptist ministers? They were spiritual leaders as well yet the have (to my knowledge) never even been breifly mentioned by any media I listen to that is so quick to twist and advertize every one of the cases against the most charitable orgainzation on earth.
You put the sins of others on this man, people are not just a collection of labels. It is wrong of you to treat him like that, it isn't like the Jesuit order is some kind of hive mind collective.
Hmm, that is odd, I know of plenty of priests that received no special treatment and went straight to jail.
Of course, when medicine thought pedophilia was a treatable disorder, it was dealt with differently, blame medicine for being wrong.
@178Lawrence "You put the sins of others on this man.." Please advise the name of the man to whom I attributed "the sins of others". I could easily provide you with names of bishops, cardinals and popes who covered up and facilitated the "sins of others".
Regarding your "plenty of priests" comment, name those priests who were immediately turned over to the police by a bishop as soon as that bishop became aware of the abuse and prior to discovery either by the media or police.
@178Lawrence It is a common tactic on this and other forums to evade a challenge to back up a claim with hard evidence by telling the challenger to read some book, research the internet, talk to some expert etc. Your claim requires a specific, unbiased source not affiliated with the Catholic Church, that shows a direct statistical comparison among the groups you mention.
@Lyc360 I do believe the burden of proof is due unto the accuser, if anyone, you should be showing me stats.
Though I have seen numreous studies, try this one
A Perspective on Clergy Sexual Abuse, "approximately 4% of priests during the past half century (mostly 60's and 70's) have had a sexual experience with a minor" which "is consistent with male clergy from other religious traditions and is significantly lower than the general adult male population which may double these numbers".
@178Lawrence Part 5- Plante’s report contains unsupported speculation that has absolutely no evidentiary support for his comparison of abuse by priests "with the general male adult population". However a crucial difference between the general male population and predatory priests is that a regular person isn't protected by a rich and powerful organization such as the Catholic Church. Child rapists in society face jail time while priestly rapists face transfer and cover up of their crimes.
@178Lawrence Part 4- Plante, author of the study you cited makes assertion that are contradicted by facts. He states that most of the molestation cases occurred in the 60's and 70,s. His main data source is the John Jay Report (commissioned by US bishops) which only looks at post 1950 US data. He conveniently overlooks the Irish government’s 2009 Ryan report that documents horrendous child abuse of tens of thousands of kids in Catholic-run schools since the beginning of the 20th Century.
@178Lawrence Part 3- One of the most notorious child molesters was Jesuit Donald McGuire SJ who rocketed to worldwide fame as spiritual advisor to Mother Theresa and the nuns of her international religious order. Documents recently released (3/30/11) clearly show that the Jesuits concealed his crimes for decades, facilitating his molestation of children in multiple states.
@178Lawrence Part 2- The data source you cite is far from unbiased having been written by Thomas Plante, a professor of a Jesuit University in California. The Society of Jesus (Jesuits) recently paid 166.1 million dollars for child abuse of 450 children who were raped and sodomized in Jesuit mission schools – the largest settlement by a religious order in the history of the world.
@178Lawrence Part1- Review my initial posts and you will note that I never made a single claim concerning the prevalence of clergy abuse. However, you did and that is why I asked you to provide evidence for your statistical claims - "99% of altar boys"..."other groups of adults are twice as likely..". So you were the one throwing out the numbers and the burden of proof is yours.
@wordonfirevideo Thanks Fr. Barron, I just joined the RC church coming from the Anglican church because I found it to be lacking in an authoritative structure, and now I truely believe in all of the Catholic teachings on purgatory, the body and blood of jesus in the eucharist, and everything else. It's a wonderful religion and I finally feel the grace of God that everyone talks about feeling in the other non-Catholic Churches that I never felt before.
Let's not forget Purgatory. Almost everyone gets to suffer for a very long time but at least its not forever like those hell-bound kids who masturbated and didn't get to confession on time!
The Jesuit order has agreed to ay more than $166 million to the more than 500 victims who suffered sexual abuse when they were kids in Catholic schools in five states of the U.S. northwest, the victims’ attorney said.
Most of those affected are Indians who suffered abuse at the hands of priests in what is known as the Oregon Province of the Society of Jesus, which includes the states of Oregon, Washington, Alaska, Idaho and Montana, according to the local press.
@goinghomesomeday1 - certainly, where wrong has been done, then let the light shine fully upon it. But, let's not "throw the baby out with the bath water". Issues of child abuse are not confined to just the RCC. Let's all work to greater protect the innocent in out communities and the Church is very much committed to this - remember the level of abuse in the Church is way - WAY in the minority. Let's all remember, Christ was betrayed by a friend too - the victims suffering He knows well!
WASHINGTON – The Jesuit order has agreed to ay more than $166 million to the more than 500 victims who suffered sexual abuse when they were kids in Catholic schools in five states of the U.S. northwest, the victims’ attorney said.
Most of those affected are Indians who suffered abuse at the hands of priests in what is known as the Oregon Province of the Society of Jesus, which includes the states of Oregon, Washington, Alaska, Idaho and Montana, according to the local press.
Need we show how many fathers, teachers, uncles, coaches, step fathers, other children etc etc etc have abused children?
The Church is not perfect, there are sinners, all humans are sinners. Don't let this cloud your opinion of the Church, as the Church is not those abusers, it is the the teachings of Jesus passed down to us by the Apostles.
Venter is creaking open the most profound door in humanity's history, potentially peeking into its destiny. He is not merely copying life artificially ... or modifying it radically by genetic engineering. He is going towards the role of a god: creating artificial life that could never have existed naturally."
I am pretty sure that some power or force created us but I highly doubt that it was "god". Instead, look at the big picture. We live in a huge universe with billions of galaxies and planets with possible intelligent life in between. If there is intelligent life out there then they could possibly be millions of years advanced then we on earth are. Thus, intelligent life from another planet could have possibly created us many thousands of years ago. For what reason? I dont know.
@truefitt101 So you consider it more likely that life from another planet created us than it is that God created us?
Interesting.
Non-Christian religions seem fairly easy to debunk, but Christianity seems a little tougher. Among all of the world's religions, is there another where the founder's coming was foretold? Hundreds of prophecies were fulfilled in Jesus--far too many to be coincidence. Can this be simply dismissed?
@WorkingCatholic It can if you start looking up all the other deity origin stories Jesus plagiarized. Also keep in mind that the only evidence for his existence happens to be the gospels which I'll be quick to remind you were written long after the supposed time he was alive. Throw in known times where bibles have been edited through history, gone through multiple translations, and is often taken on opposite sides of the same argument as evidence that they're right and all falls apart.
@hockeater Friend, practically everything you're saying here is false. Take a look at N.T. Wright, Richard Bauckham, and Brant Pitre in order to get a much, much clearer picture.
@wordonfirevideo Actually how about you look up extensive and exhaustive histories of the bible, religions that came before it long before it or the Jewish faith it borrowed heavily from, and the dates on the gospels before dismissing everything I just said out of hand. My sources are the things being talked about themselves rather than the words of a few people.
@hockeater I've studied this material for years, friend. The better you know the Bible, the more you see how radically it differs from all the religions and ideologies that surround it.
@wordonfirevideo The more you study the bible without rose tinted glasses of faith the more you realize that it's the typical faith book. Atrocity after atrocity, threat after threat, self contradiction after self contradiction all protected by flowery language and the faith of those made to believe it long before they were thinking rationally.
@hockeater Friend, that's just for the birds. Please study the life and psychology of, say, Augustine of Hippo, Paul of Tarsus, Maximilian Kolbe, and Thomas Aquinas, and tell me that they were looking at anything through "rose colored glasses." These great biblical interpreters--like the biblical authors themselves--had a very canny sense of the fallen, conflictual, sinful quality of human life. What you see in the Bible is life--all of it, the good and the bad.
@wordonfirevideo Human life is what we make of it not some inherently bad thing to be set in stone by bronze age dirt farmers. Life changes, people change, morality changes from person to person, and all things change over time. This is a basic and immutable fact of the reality we live in. Even the stars themselves change in measurable proven ways. My take on morality doesn't require me to kill anyone who disagrees with my take on morality or other horrible things.
@hockeater Protect yourself and those dear to you and treat others as you'd expect to be treated. Learn what you can about the world we live in and cut away lies. Examine all things critically on there own merits and above all set nothing in stone. I wouldn't have problems with organized religions if they weren't trying to get us to worship a book of horrors and censor all who disagree throughout history. Any view should stand on its own merits rather than unquestioning loyalty to a single book.
This video offers photos that pinpoint Rome as one prophetic entity.
"There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads (the city of Rome sits on 7 hills) and ten horns.The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet (colors of the clergy's garb), and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls (not difficult to see). She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries." Revelation 17:3-4
If Jesus comes back he will come back as a Jew not a Catholic. Did Jesus not refer to gentiles in derogatory terms calling them dogs? Did Jesus give Christians a let off from keeping the ten commandments? I'm refering to keeping the Sabbath day Holy? Sunday is not the Sabbath.
@veggielover87 I didn't say anything of the sort about satan and the Catholic church. I was just making a point about Catholics who think that being Catholic is the most important thing and the only way to God. I have no agenda of hatred towards the Catholic church only a dislike for hypocrisy where I see it and that can apply to all faiths. All organised religions are the creation of men and as a result they can be flawed. I am not here to insult or or offend people, just discuss religion.
@GraveyardGhost559@Roolooth99 --God created our Church: "And on this rock I will build my Church"-St Matthew. // That's what Jesus said to Peter, but he didn't mean to build any religion. Remeber that when JC and Pete first met, Jesus promised to turn him into a "fisherman". The sentence "And on this rock I will build my Church" is a reference to the "fisherman" thing: the 'rock' refers to the man who did not believe (old Peter), and the 'Church' is the man who is one with God (St. Peter)
@GraveyardGhost559@Roolooth99 --God created our Church: "And on this rock I will build my Church"-St Matthew. // That's what Jesus said to Peter, but he didn't mean to build any religion. Remeber that when JC and Pete first met, Jesus promised to turn him into a "fisherman". The sentence "And on this rock I will build my Church" is a reference to the "fisherman" thing: the 'rock' refers to the man who did not believe (old Peter), and the 'Church' is the man who is one with God (St. Peter)
@GraveyardGhost559 That's what Jesus said to Peter, but he didn't mean to build any religion. Remeber that when JC and Pete first met, Jesus promised to turn him into a "fisherman". The sentence "And on this rock I will build my Church" is a reference to the "fisherman" thing: the 'rock' refers to the man who did not believe (old Peter), and the 'Church' is the man who is one with God (St. Peter). Remember the way Jesus used to talk.
@GraveyardGhost559 Of course the Bible does speak about reincarnation. Jesus himself talks about it (take a look again). And if-you're-brave-enough, compare JC's teachings with Buddha's and Krishna's, and prepare to get amazed.
@ketlingambriz -If reincarnation is true. what of the parable of the rich man who went to hell while Lazarus went to the Bosom of Our Father of Faith? The rich man implied that he was stuck there for good.
@WayOfTheMaster454 It is a parable, remember. Think about the meaning of that story, not the words. Parables are like fables: fables are (often) meant for children needing a lesson about life; parables are meant for people needing a lesson about God.
Having Jesus Christ telling parables is pretty much like attending to the kindergarten of Heaven (hosting the best teacher ever!). Once you succeed that stage, you are ready for the next one; but you need to succeed, so pay attention to the Teacher.
Do we need the Church to come to Christ? The bible exists beyond the church. There are probably passages in the bible that say what you need to come to Christ. I don't know them. I have family members who belong to a baptist church who believe that it takes only one thing to come to Christ and be saved. "Faith alone." The one and only criteria for attaining salvation is faith in Christ they believe. Thoughts?
@Vezhil Jesus Christ said that the Church he founded, who had Peter as the first Pope. (The Church in Rome, the Catholic Church) is the pillar of truth. All the other churches were founded by men and corrupted sola scripture. Vehzil, if anything, the Catholic Church. I was a Protestant and when I started going to the Catholic Church, half of my family (who are from those countless non-denominational protestant churches) attacked me because of it.. and then I realised they were ALL deceived.
@Z1GGYK3V Technically that doesn't directly answer the question. One Church was founded as the pillar of church, but men have been making decision in it since it was founded. Corruption has entered the Catholic Church (example: child molestation).
But lets assume one church is clearly the best, and it is yours, is it necessary for salvation? Currently I have not seen any argument that it is necessary, you argued it was best.
God so loved the world that he gave his..John chapt3 he calls all to himself. Mat.11:28, he cast no one out. John6:37. he gives gift to to the church. Eph.4:8-11, and the purpose is..Eph.4:12-16. Ro. 12:6, 1Co. 12:4 read Ro. 10:11-13, Act 2:39 Mk. 1:15, Is.1:18, God build all things He.3:4, Mat.16:18 God calls us to unity. John 17:11, Eph.4:4,5. Mat.chapt.20. we obey and humble selves James 4:10, 1Peter 5:6, as Jesus did.Phil.2:8. Luke 18:10-16. Prov.27:2. raised cath, just sharing, B bless.
@MSMOKER100 In Life the heart of man would be the only place Jesus could be to be understood and feel at home. Can you picture Jesus and all his great Knownledge of great worldly knowledge having a Red Neck from Louisiana in his heart tring to figure what was going on and tring to get everything done before diner with the boys of Collard Greens and Pickled Pigs feet and desert of Rhubarb Pie ? Do you think the Lord would ever get over having this fellow in his heart ?Red Neck heart is better !
Catholic priests are pedophiles!!! shouldn't Catholics who are bestowed with the power of god be more resistant to the temptations of Satan. I'm not even religious and I've never raped a child.
"Every baptized person is our brother & sister in Jesus Christ."
That is such a wonderful gift. That is beyond amazing. It means that, by virtue of our respective baptisms, you and I are brother and sister in Christ. I'm barely worthy of the very word, but it is true. Tell us, Father, can priests also learn from those of us sitting in the pews? What do you get from ministering to us, who sometimes get things wrong or backwards or mess it up, etc. Do priests need us in return?
@sterlingrose33 --Unfortunatley, even though some of the laity know more than the priest of the "boomer" generation, they are not open to our or the churches council. This is my experience on the matter.
Why do people who are so vehemently opposed to God come onto this link??? If you are not into God, fine, get over it, and go to the Dawkins Link and vent your spleen there.
@Newgrange73 I think I know why: they're like Herod, who imprisoned John the Baptist but secretly loved to listen to him. Many of the most outspoken opponents of religion are actually, deep down, passionate seekers.
I think that people who are opposed to God often seek to challenge themselves and others about God. To this end, they come to respectable proponent of religion.
I am an atheist and I think that religion is a byproduct of human nature. We tend to jump to conclusions. God is not proven, but some people make a leap of faith to belief in God. I seek truth. I don't accept things unless there is sufficient evidence.
Also, I am interested in religion. It is strange and interesting to me.
So if every baptized person is a Catholic's brother/sister in Christ, how come a Lutheran or Baptist, etc, cannot receive Eucharist in a Catholic Church?
Not that anyone seems to check creds at the Communion rail. I do know of one Episcopalian who has attended Masses in a Catholic Church and she was never turned away from the rail. She received the Body and Blood just like anyone else.
Receiving the Eucharist means you believe everything the Church teaches and that you are in a state of Grace. Obviously a Lutheran or Baptist doesn't believe everything the Catholic Church teaches or they would be Catholic. And frankly, there are a lot of Catholics who should not be receiving the Eucharist because they don't meet these two requirements. As for your Episcopalian acquaintance, she was probably not turned away because no one knew she was not Catholic.
Hammer...no no, she told me that the priest at that Catholic church was aware of her Episcopalian faith. She is now herself...are you sitting down...an Episcopal priest. Oh yes, heresy, I know, I know. Sometimes things do get a little crazy.
All one can do is shake one's head when a priest is so confused he doesn't understand the teachings of the Church as well as the lay people. May God open his mind and heart to the truth.
Would you allow a Jew to be godfather to a Christian child? Your legitimate hesitation hasn't a thing to do with anti-Semitism; it has to do with the incompatibility of belief systems. Just as a Jew could not pledge his belief in Jesus Christ on behalf of a child, so a Lutheran or Presbyterian could not in good faith say "Amen" when a Catholic priest proposed the communion wafer as the body of Christ.
As an atheist I sometimes attend different church services. I received the body of Christ at both a Catholic church and a Baptist church, though I was not even raised in either tradition.
I wanted to participate. It's an interesting experience, taking part in religious ceremonies. At the Baptist church they specifically mentioned that they don't dictate weather or not you do it, it's between God and the participants.
At the Catholic church I was taken by my girlfriend who was raised catholic and it was my first time in the church. My girlfriend said they would assume I was Catholic.
As long as I don't offend anyone, is there any harm?
@Vezhil Perhaps God is leading you. I have no quarrel with someone coming to church out of an authentic desire to learn and understand. I was just puzzled why, if you truly don't believe in God, you would bother. My suspicion is that your atheism is perhaps not as firm as you thought!
Could be. I do not believe in God, but I try to be open minded and consider the possibility of God. However, I repeatedly find the evidence to be insufficient. I'm not willing to make a leap of faith. God is possible, but an unlikely explanation for why things are as they are.
I am very interested in religion, despite not practicing it. I studied cognitive psychology (on my own, not for coursework) and then I moved toward religion.
@Vezhil Do you agree that contingent existence cannot be explained sufficiently simply through endless appeal to other contingent things? If you do, then you believe in what Catholic theology calls "God."
I do believe that infinite regression does not explain contingent existence, but I do not believe that God (the unmoved mover) is the only solution. Some other solutions are an event without cause, that nothingness can cause something, and non-linear cause and effect. The latter two are seriously considered by theoretical physicists.
In truth, I do not know how this all came to be, but don't put God in the gaps of human knowledge or he will get smaller each day.
@Vezhil You know, friend, here's what I find really puzzling. You think that believing in God involves way too great a leap of faith, yet you're willing to believe that something can come from nothing! That latter proposition would take, for me, an infinite leap of faith to believe in.
I am willing to believe it if and only if there is sufficient evidence. As yet, there is not, and therefor I do not believe this claim. I meant only to expose the false dichotomy of your argument.
"an infinite leap of faith" -what do you mean infinite? I suspect you simply mean that this seems outlandish to you, and indeed, quantum physics makes many outlandish claims. Do you similarly dismiss other claims of quantum physics, on what grounds? Consider: "vacuum fluctuations."
@wordonfirevideo The reason I think the leap of faith to belief in God is so great is that I have sought evidence and found it lacking. Now it could be that there is a God, and it could be that there is not. Is there any way to tell without dieing first?
There could be a flying spaghetti monster, how could I know?
Can something come from nothing? Not in our every day experience it seems, put perhaps if conditions were different...
How can we tell? Science can explore the question!
@Vezhil Was that a Bullet that wizzed over the top of my head ! Them 50 cent words are a problem with me and I bet there is a bunch more who seem to have a bullet wizz over the top of their head also ! Could I get you to lower those words to the 10 cent word level so I can understand them Please ? The reason I say this is I see you have a handle on what is going on here and can explain it in great detail ! Please ?
@turtle4aire Sorry for the confusion. I'm not really sure what words are causing you difficulty, but if you mention things I said I can try to clarify.
Father Barron and I have been talking about weather or not it makes sense to believe in God. How can you tell if there is a God? I also talked a bit about some physics which deals with how the universe (all of everything) got here. To him, it seems that even considering some of the scientific explanations is a big leap of faith.
@turtle4aire WAT IF DAT REDNECK WAS DESTINED FOR SOMTHING GREAT BUT JESUS DIDNT WANT TO REVEAL IT TO HIM CUZ HE HAD TO DO IT FIRST AND CHANGE HIS ENTIRE LIFE AND PERSPECTIVE ON IT AND HAVE A CHANGE OF HEART!
@Vezhil Vehzil. Two words, physical world and a spiritual world. Being interested in religion is because God is inviting you to the Christian faith. :D I felt the same thing when I was a Christian Protestant, I had a feeling like yours about being really interested and in the urge of going back right in my heart asking me to come back.
Anyway, is the spiritual world not part of the physical world...or at least an effect of the physical world? Like cyber space is kind of like part of the physical reality in a way...
Am I being invited by God? I don't think I hear him. I think that my interest is my own. Do you believe God is reaching into my mind and...exercising some kind of control, through what interests me? Would that not violate free will?
Do I really have reason to believe in God? What is it?
Claiming that the Catholic Church had received Apostolic authority as a "gift" from God and that the Catholic Church is "properly shepherded" doesnt bode well for the shepherd. The Catholic Church presided over 600 years of Inquisitional brutality. Recent revelations about worldwide abuse of children by clergy show that the Vatican (Ratzingers 1962 letter) facilitated the abuse by directing that the crimes be kept secret. So any claim to be properly shepherded by a loving God is false.
Bad Catholics don't equate to bad Catholicism, just as bad Americans don't negate American ideals. The authority I'm referring to is largely a doctrinal authority, the maintenance of the church in right belief. The Pope's infallibility hasn't a thing to do with his practical decisions.
The Church's history precludes any claim to special treatment from a loving and just God. Claiming that the heinous actions of the official Church are attributable to some renegade "bad Catholics" and not the Church itself, is untenable.
Americans were responsible, in World War II alone, for the deaths of at least a million innocent civilians. Does that mean that the American constitution is morally suspect or that the American experiment in liberal democracy is to be discredited? Yes, Catholics have done terrible things over the centuries, sometimes in the name of the church. But this doesn't mean that Catholic Christianity, in its essential features, is corrupt.
The U.S. makes no claim to have special guidance among nations from a shepherding, just and loving God. And its checkered history provides ample evidence that it has not received such guidance. The Catholic Church makes such a claim. The official Church has done "terrible things" (not individual Catholics acting without official church sanction) calling such an extraordinary claim into serious question. I am a great admirer of the American Constitution with its capacity for amendment.
And the Church has reformed and amended its behavior frequently in the course of twenty centuries. An ancient Catholic motto is "ecclesia semper reformanda,"( the church must always be reformed). Take a good look at the 21 councils for the details. And the church claims divine guidance in regard to its essential faith claims and the efficacy of its sacraments, not in regard to the practical decisions of its leaders.
If an omnipotent, omniscient God whom you claim to be pure love, was shepherding his/her/its chosen church, then the "practical decisions" of its leaders, that affected so many people for so many years, would be of paramount importance to a god of love. Such a god would never permit such egregious evil to permeate those decisions. That behavior effectively refutes any claim of divine guidance.
An obvious question comes to mind when evaluating the church's claim of divine guidance by a loving God. How could such a God allow its chosen church to engage in such despicable behavior for so long? About 80 popes presided over the church during the 600 year-long Inquisition. The last execution for witchcraft in Holland was1610; in England 1684; America 1692; France 1745; Germany 1775; Poland 1793 and lastly - Italy. The Catholic Church didnt abolish the use of torture until 1816.
How, precisely, would God determine that human beings be good without negating their freedom? Why do people do evil things? Because they're free and freedom is susceptible to abuse. Stop blaming God for our sins!
No. I was responding to your apparent insinuation that the loving God could utterly control the behavior of the followers of Christ! If we're free, we're going to do bad things. Don't blame God.
The reason for my question is that my comments here were all directed to the subject of the video i.e. "What gifts does God give to the Catholic Church?" I focused upon the disparity between the Catholic Church's claim of special guidance from God and its record over many centuries that calls that claim into question. My rejection of your "free will" argument as justification for creation of a place of eternal torment is stated in my posts in your "comments on hell" video.
Friend, please attend to what I actually argued in the video. I claimed that Christ has given the church the essential gifts that make it a bearer of Christ's presence to the world--sacraments, liturgy, eucharist, apostolic governance, the saints, etc. That doesn't mean for a moment that those gifts are not sometimes misused or that sin has somehow been miraculously eradicated from the hearts of church people. You're reacting to an overstatement of my position.
It's unrealistic to claim that a benevolent God, intent on evangelizing the world, would allow his principal, earthly, evangelizing, institution to sink to such depths of corruption. An omniscient god would foresee and take action to assure his chosen church remains a steady beacon of goodness. So the provision of those rituals (sacraments) would pale in importance when compared to the absolute necessity of protecting his chosen vessel of instruction from losing moral authority.
Again, friend, how could God do this without utterly suspending human freedom? If human beings are free, some will abuse their freedom. To "guarantee" that everyone behaves is tantamount to denying freedom of choice.
An omniscient god who is purported to be a god of love, justice and compassion would foresee the horrendous suffering of humans and all other creatures based on his alleged plan and would have devised a plan that reflected love, justice and compassion. He, she, it would not be the petty, unjust, vindictive, genocidal, malevolent bully depicted in the Bible.
You must be reading a different Bible than I am. First, what makes you think you understand "the big picture" better than Creator of time and space? You are like a man trying to understand the human body by carefully examining a fingernail. You simply don't have the requisite information to make a judgment on this.
Childbirth involves suffering and yet women continue to submit to it of their own free will even after they've experienced it once it. Why? The end result is worth it.
Ok - How does your "fingernail" and "childbirth" analogies provide any justification for the evil actions of the petty, unjust, vindictive, genocidal, malevolent god described in the Bible?
Let me break it down for you. I was expressing two different concepts. First, that you don't have enough information to make judgments on the big picture (that's the fingernail analogy). Second, that suffering can bring about good things, like new human beings and it's worth enduring it for that reason. Why suffering occurs we do not always know, but God does, and he doesn't allow it unless it is the best way to bring about an essential good.
Perhaps you can provide the missing information. Why is the god of the Bible a petty, unjust, vindictive, genocidal, malevolent bully? Mark Twain described the Judaeo-Christian God as follows: "He slay, slays, slays, all the men, all the beasts, all the boys, all the babies; also all the women and all the girls except those that have not been deflowered..... What the insane Father required was blood and misery....."
Let me ask you this, if you knew a group of people were going to that ruin the chances for salvation for every single person ever to be born past and present, and that their deaths would make it possible for anyone who sincerely sought salvation could have a chance at eternal life, what would you do? Choose to let these people live until natural death and ultimately be condemned to eternal "prison" along with every other human being? Or would you kill them for the greater good of humanity?
Before I can answer your question please explain how some "group of people" can "ruin the chances of salvation for every single person ever to be born past and present". What group of people do you have in mind?
The group I'm talking about is the group Twain was referring to--the Midianites. God gave Moses some pretty basic rules to stay in His good graces--ten of them to be precise. The Midianites routinely violated the top one, idolatry. If the Israelites had fallen into massive idolatry due to the Midianites, Jesus could not have come to them to save us all because the Israelites wouldn't have recognized him as coming from the true God. If you notice, it's not until the Midianites start...
..to infect the Israelites with their idolatry that God commands their deaths. Rebuilding a bridge between man and God was not an easy task after the fall, because man kept getting in the way of progress. I don't really expect you to believe that salvation exists, but I do want to show you that for those who believe it does and that it was achieved through Jesus Christ, God's destruction of the Midianites is easily viewed as an act intended to achieve the greatest good.
So God sanctions the very practices that a supposedly loving and compassionate god should abhor, namely murder, rape, enslavement and child abuse. You defend this carnage by claiming that god, supposedly possessing infinite wisdom, has no choice but to resort to the most heinous and evil acts.
In Joshua and in Numbers the mass murder of men, women, children, down to the domestic animals in city after city across the whole land of Canaan, is celebrated. Jericho is obliterated in a holy war. The only justification offered for this slaughter is the mass murderers' claim that, in exchange for circumcising their sons and adopting a particular set of rituals, their ancestors were long before promised that this land was their land.
@HammerofHeretics Similar stories of mass murder (and in the case of the Amalekites, genocide) are found in Saul, Esther, and elsewhere in the Bible, There is no expression of moral doubt. There is no self-reproach, no patriarchal or divine disquiet concerning these campaigns of extermination to be found in holy scripture. So is it any wonder that the Bible has inspired so much carnage throughout the centuries?
Should God apologize for doing what is best for humanity? And why would there be any doubt on His part? He knows all and sees all. You keep trying to reduce God to one of us, and he's not one of us at all.
I think you are wrong when you say it doesn't bother Him, though. I think it bothers Him very much when people throw away the gifts that he has given them and nothing would please Him more if every used their freedom wisely. He does not want souls to be lost.
@HammerofHeretics I assure you, I do not desire to "reduce God to one of us". Hopefully, we are not, as Catholic doctrine claims, made in the image of the Biblical god. However, if that is the case, it would suggest a reason why many individuals in our species have committed such heinous crimes against one another.
If there is a god who is aware of our species that has evolved on this tiny spec of cosmic dust called Earth, I hope it is nothing like the god depicted in the Bible.
I assure you, the God of the Bible did not "evolve". There is no need to evolve when you have have always been and always will be perfect. You look at things from such a constricted perspective I can see why you have problems understanding how something that might on the micro level appear horrible, be something that is ordered toward the greatest good. .
@HammerofHeretics My post states that we evolved on planet Earth and not the god of the Old Testament. The origin of that god was in the minds of the biblical scribes.
No, you were talking about the prospects of a hypothetical God that evolved from cosmic dust. That actually is quite a bit more illogical than the concept of god held by the ancient philosophers, who understood that a contingent thing like the universe cannot be the source of its own existence.
@HammerofHeretics Don't accuse me of lying. To my knowledge, there is no record of anyone ever claiming that god is a product of evolution. Deliberately twisting my words, even after offering a clarification of my intended meaning, is a blatant attempt to create a strawman ripe for attack. When you resort to fallacious agurments of logic and rhetoric, you demonstrate a lack of confidence in your ability to defend your contentions.
"If there is a god who is aware of our species that has evolved on this tiny spec of cosmic dust called Earth"--Baloneydetective
This is the comment I was referring to, and yes, I have heard Dawkins make ridiculous comments about God not being able to exist because He would have had to "evolve." My point is that no believer would ever think anything so ridiculous, so why bring it up?
Even after my clarification to you concerning the intent of my comment: ".....our species that has evolved on this tiny spec of cosmic dust called Earth": to convey the idea that our species evolved and not god, you rejected of my explanation. That rejection indicates your continued need for a strawman to attack. I'm not familiar with Dawkins' comment that you "heard". Dawkins has commented that if God exists we would then need to explain where he came from.
I didn't reject your explanation of what you meant, I explained what I was responding to in your comment. You acted like I pulled the idea out of thin air, but I pulled it from your comment and added that I'd heard Dawkins say something similar. It's bad philosophy and I don't know why you'd even bring the idea up. If there's one thing that Christianity teaches it's that He is not like anything in His creation and that He was never created because HE IS who IS.
You misinterpreted my comment and when I offered a clarification you said "No" and repeated the misinterpretation. And here again you are attempting to associate my comment with something you "heard" Dawkins say. And that alleged comment of Dawkins, inferring the evolution of god, has nothing to do with my reference to the evolution of man. Your posts continue to be strawmen.
Was I supposed to be arguing with you about the evolution of man? Sorry to disappoint, but evolution is a scientific theory that stands or falls on the basis of scientific evidence, it has nothing to do with my religious beliefs. If it turns out Darwin was 100% right about the origins of species (and I don't think even the neo-Darwinists would grant that) it would do nothing to my belief that God created the cosmos.
Faith is a gift of hope in things that have been promised by not yet delivered. It should never be irrational, however. I believe in the promises of Jesus because I believe Jesus is who He said He was. I don't believe this strictly because the Bible says it, however, because a book can't be self-authenticating.
Also, there is no mention of your freedom argument in this video. This video attempts to convince viewers that the Catholic Church is the one true church because it has all the necessary gifts. However, your "Comments on Hell" video does use the "freedom" argument to justify God's creation of an eternal place of torture. Finally, I don't blame God for creating an eternal place of torture because there is no such place.
Again, you haven't really listened to my argument. I never said that the Catholic Church is "the one true church." In fact, I argued explicitly that other churches have many of the gifts that the Catholic church has and that sometimes they exercise particular charisms more effectively than the Catholic church does. In regard to Hell, you can't defend both God's love and human freedom without affirming the possibility of the free human rejection of that love.
And yes that is rightly so. Children as a fruit of a Catholic marriage must be brought up to know and live the Catholic Faith!
aaron1983 2 months ago
Catholic church continues Ethnic cleansing in Ireland
Billyking1313 7 months ago
@Billyking1313 Friend, you'd be much closer to the truth if you said that Catholics were the victims of ethnic cleansing in the 19th century in Ireland. Tell me precisely which ethnic group you think the church his currently cleansing in Ireland.
wordonfirevideo 7 months ago 6
@wordonfirevideo - Ne Temere! It is alive and well in Ireland. This Sunday past a document was handed out at the Catholic mass explaining to Catholics that in any mixed marriage that permission to marry would not be given unless the non Catholic spouse to be, signs the Ne Temere document - it is a statutory requirement in Ireland within the Catholic church thus slowly but surely increasing the Catholic population to the detriment of the other Churches in Ireland.
Billyking1313 6 months ago
@Billyking1313 The Church requires that the Catholic party in a mixed marriage agree to do all in his or her power to raise the children Catholic and the spouse to be is asked to witness this oath. I don't see what you could possibly find objectionable in this. If someone doesn't want to do it, then they shouldn't get married in church.
wordonfirevideo 6 months ago 4
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Keylemvids 1 week ago
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Keylemvids 1 week ago
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@Billyking1313
My mom was an English Protestant who married my Irish dad and they eventually moved to Ireland - they had 8 children. She had no objection to us being baptised and raised Catholic. Many years later she herself was received into the CC, and she is a very devout woman, who loves Our Lady to bits! It can be a means of Evangelisation and not Ethnic cleansing as you put it!
Keylemvids 1 week ago
I am Catholic and i participate in Catholic and Protestant worship services. WE are all brothers and sisters in Christ. WE only have one enemy and that is not 'each other'. That is satan.
I just love how Catholics are so humble. May we all be devoted to Christ.
God doesn't require a religion for salvation. God calls. It's all God's work. =D
aiazthea01 7 months ago in playlist catholic sermons
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When you can freely worship God by the anointing of holy spirit,WHY DO YOU NEED TO BOW DOWN BEFORE IMAGES ,AND ASK THEM TO PRAY FOR YOU TO JESUS AS IF YOU ARE UNWORTHY TO PRAY DIRECTLY TO JESUS?THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT JESUS CAME FOR,TO CLEANSE MANKIND'S SINS AND MAKE HIM STAND BEFORE GOD.NT TEACHES ANYONE CAN ACCESS GOD THROUGH ONLY INTERCESSOR JESUS.THUS YOU DO EXACTLY OPPOSITE OF WHAT JESUS WANT US TO DO WITH FAITH & ANOINTING OF HOLY SPIRIT BY YOUR PRACTICE OF INTERCESSION OF SAINTS
alrok777 8 months ago
the rhetoric "church like elements" which i see iscontained in the vatican II docs, in implying that protestants only have church like elements, is in itself EXTREMELY patronizing.
But I would hold it true if by "church like elements" it meant any church without the love of christ. And that is all of us. ALL of us have merely church like elements.
But i doubt very much that anycatholic would even dream of going this far, just as radical protestants would not even give Rome that much
Strefanasha 8 months ago
but what you are saying is that even if Rome no longer claims to be the ONLY christian church (and some arch conservative catholics like Malachi Martin deny this even now) you are saying it is the BEST christian church.
this is still manifestly absurd. it does not come from observation of the lives of professing christians, nor from a study of scripture without preconceptions.
unlike my prot associates I have dealings with catholics, so i see that they are as christian as we are
Strefanasha 8 months ago
. . . as christian as we are, but, alas, that is not very much. one final point, i hold the protestants les honest that the catholics. WE profess sola scriptura, sola gratia, sola fide. These are Biblical doctrines., BUT we show by our lives we do not believe them. Rome denies them outright. so they are more honest than we are. we hide out unbelief behind hypocrisy, rome is blatant in its unbelief.
ALL we like sheep have gone astray
Strefanasha 8 months ago
The question what gifts does God give to any church may be rephrased what gifts did any church receive from God. and that in turn leads directly to: "what Fruit of the Spirit shows in anyt church?".
thus, there being essentially no fruit there is no gift received. I have no time for catholic bashing or singling out Rome for criticism, but the fact is ALL the churches, all of US , are so obscene that we are the best argument for atheism there is. this is not a valid one, but it is persuasive
Strefanasha 8 months ago
@Strefanasha Come on, friend. That's a little strong. I mean, I agree with you that Catholics have done lots of bad things--see my videos on the sex abuse crisis--but you can't say that we've been abandoned by the Holy Spirit.
wordonfirevideo 8 months ago 3
@wordonfirevideo
no, NONE of us have been abandoned by the Holy SPirit. But WE have abandoned Him. As Jesus saiod "you know them by their fruit" our fruit show this
BTW I took Malachi MArtin on good faith. THis was a mistake. It seems that the latin term susbsistit is moer complex and controversial than his use. I should have looked it up before posting, not after
Strefanasha 8 months ago
the church subsists in the Catholic Church? Arch Catholic Malachi Martin pointed out that in the original latin of theVatican II docs the word "subsistit" means something quite different from "subsist" in english. in englsh, Marttin said, subsist means contained in but confined to, but in Latin means ONLY contained in and LIMITED TO. thus subsistit means the church of God is ONLY contained in and LIMITED to the Roman Church.
If Barro knows this he is a liar, if not he is ignoranyt
Strefanasha 8 months ago
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MORE ON THE HISTORY OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ABUSE AND TORTURE IN IRELAND.
The UN Committee against Torture (UNCAT) has found that an independent inquiry should be conducted into what went on in the Catholic run Magdalene Laundries in Ireland. Where there was rampant physical, psychological and sex abuse of the women incarcerated there. These abuses were carried out by Catholic priests and Catholic nuns. They were held for life there, without trial or justice. Rome Rule in Catholic Ireland!!
Billyking1313 8 months ago
CATHOLICS ARE PAGANS.THE ONLY REAL POPE WAS ST. PETER THE FIRST ONE JESUS CALLED HIM.BURN THE WITCHES THEY ARE ENEMIES OF GOD.THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL.HOW DO YOU DETERMINE BETWEEN A REAL CHRISTIAN AND A FAKE ONE?THEY KILL THE REAL ONES!
angelmeade 8 months ago
@angelmeade Well, thanks for that burst of 16th century wisdom! And lady, if your last principle is true, you should remove the plank in your own Protestant eye!
wordonfirevideo 8 months ago
Amen :)
khewlko 9 months ago
@goinghomesomeday1
You are disgusting, I am an altar boy and have never been touched, I am with 99% of all altar boys with this one. Don't pass out judgement on a billion people so easily.
178Lawrence 9 months ago
@178Lawrence You state: "I am an altar boy and have never been touched". They say 1 out of 5 people is Chinese. That's not possible. I know lots of people and none of them is Chinese! - Just like your comment - a classic fallacy of logic and rhetoric.
Lyc360 9 months ago
@Lyc360
I am no expert on fallacy, but judging a billion peoples' tens of thousands of priests to be rapists has to be one of them.
Besides, statistically, other groups of male adults are about twice as likely to abuse than those who belong to the priesthood.
178Lawrence 9 months ago
@178Lawrence @178Lawrence You should learn to recognize fallacious arguments so that in the future, you will recognize them when they are used to refute your contentions. The argument in your previous post is referred to as "statistics of small numbers". Regarding this post, please provide the source of your statistics i.e. "other groups of male adults are about twice as likely to abuse than those who belong to the priesthood." You are correct that child abuse is not unique to clergy.
Lyc360 9 months ago
@Lyc360 I have a very large copy/paste I usually use, but it wouldn't fit here. All you need to do is search up "baptist predators" and "Jehovas Witness abuse cases".
Even then, fathers are BY FAR the most abusive group there is, then there are teachers, coaches, uncles, nursery workers etc etc etc. Their cases are almost never televized, priests ALWAYS are.
178Lawrence 9 months ago
@178Lawrence If you had a reliable source that provided comparisons than you would have referenced it without referring to an unnamed "very large copy/paste" source. Abuse by priests is uniquely egregious compared to teachers, coaches, nurser workers, etc. Unlike priests, they do not claim membership in a group vowed to lifelong abstinence from sex of any kind, with any partner, male or female, young or old. Priests were especially trusted greatly increasing the vulnerability of their victims.
Lyc360 9 months ago
@Lyc360 What about abuse by Jehovas Witness leaders or Baptist ministers? They were spiritual leaders as well yet the have (to my knowledge) never even been breifly mentioned by any media I listen to that is so quick to twist and advertize every one of the cases against the most charitable orgainzation on earth.
178Lawrence 9 months ago
@Lyc360
You put the sins of others on this man, people are not just a collection of labels. It is wrong of you to treat him like that, it isn't like the Jesuit order is some kind of hive mind collective.
Hmm, that is odd, I know of plenty of priests that received no special treatment and went straight to jail.
Of course, when medicine thought pedophilia was a treatable disorder, it was dealt with differently, blame medicine for being wrong.
178Lawrence 9 months ago
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Lyc360 9 months ago
@178Lawrence "You put the sins of others on this man.." Please advise the name of the man to whom I attributed "the sins of others". I could easily provide you with names of bishops, cardinals and popes who covered up and facilitated the "sins of others".
Regarding your "plenty of priests" comment, name those priests who were immediately turned over to the police by a bishop as soon as that bishop became aware of the abuse and prior to discovery either by the media or police.
Lyc360 9 months ago
@178Lawrence It is a common tactic on this and other forums to evade a challenge to back up a claim with hard evidence by telling the challenger to read some book, research the internet, talk to some expert etc. Your claim requires a specific, unbiased source not affiliated with the Catholic Church, that shows a direct statistical comparison among the groups you mention.
Lyc360 9 months ago
@Lyc360 I do believe the burden of proof is due unto the accuser, if anyone, you should be showing me stats.
Though I have seen numreous studies, try this one
A Perspective on Clergy Sexual Abuse, "approximately 4% of priests during the past half century (mostly 60's and 70's) have had a sexual experience with a minor" which "is consistent with male clergy from other religious traditions and is significantly lower than the general adult male population which may double these numbers".
178Lawrence 9 months ago
@178Lawrence Part 5- Plante’s report contains unsupported speculation that has absolutely no evidentiary support for his comparison of abuse by priests "with the general male adult population". However a crucial difference between the general male population and predatory priests is that a regular person isn't protected by a rich and powerful organization such as the Catholic Church. Child rapists in society face jail time while priestly rapists face transfer and cover up of their crimes.
Lyc360 9 months ago
@178Lawrence Part 4- Plante, author of the study you cited makes assertion that are contradicted by facts. He states that most of the molestation cases occurred in the 60's and 70,s. His main data source is the John Jay Report (commissioned by US bishops) which only looks at post 1950 US data. He conveniently overlooks the Irish government’s 2009 Ryan report that documents horrendous child abuse of tens of thousands of kids in Catholic-run schools since the beginning of the 20th Century.
Lyc360 9 months ago
@178Lawrence Part 3- One of the most notorious child molesters was Jesuit Donald McGuire SJ who rocketed to worldwide fame as spiritual advisor to Mother Theresa and the nuns of her international religious order. Documents recently released (3/30/11) clearly show that the Jesuits concealed his crimes for decades, facilitating his molestation of children in multiple states.
Lyc360 9 months ago
@178Lawrence Part 2- The data source you cite is far from unbiased having been written by Thomas Plante, a professor of a Jesuit University in California. The Society of Jesus (Jesuits) recently paid 166.1 million dollars for child abuse of 450 children who were raped and sodomized in Jesuit mission schools – the largest settlement by a religious order in the history of the world.
Lyc360 9 months ago
@178Lawrence Part1- Review my initial posts and you will note that I never made a single claim concerning the prevalence of clergy abuse. However, you did and that is why I asked you to provide evidence for your statistical claims - "99% of altar boys"..."other groups of adults are twice as likely..". So you were the one throwing out the numbers and the burden of proof is yours.
Lyc360 9 months ago
"Where the Catholic church is, there is Jesus Christ."
St. Ignatius Bishop of Antioch: circa 104AD
"Where there is Peter, there is the Church."
St. Ambrose Bishop of Milan: 4th century AD
mmmail1969 9 months ago
Notice the pagan symbol of the pagan sun god in the window in the background.
The RCC loves to adore Jesus, but they do not obey His words.
The RCC claims it is the first church but the first church was founded in Jerusalem, remember Jesus is coming again but in Jerusalem.
Darthdickus1234 10 months ago
@Darthdickus1234 It's a symbol of the eucharist, dum-dum!
wordonfirevideo 10 months ago 9
@wordonfirevideo Thanks Fr. Barron, I just joined the RC church coming from the Anglican church because I found it to be lacking in an authoritative structure, and now I truely believe in all of the Catholic teachings on purgatory, the body and blood of jesus in the eucharist, and everything else. It's a wonderful religion and I finally feel the grace of God that everyone talks about feeling in the other non-Catholic Churches that I never felt before.
TheSupergoyim 9 months ago
Let's not forget Purgatory. Almost everyone gets to suffer for a very long time but at least its not forever like those hell-bound kids who masturbated and didn't get to confession on time!
Lyc360 10 months ago
The Jesuit order has agreed to ay more than $166 million to the more than 500 victims who suffered sexual abuse when they were kids in Catholic schools in five states of the U.S. northwest, the victims’ attorney said.
Most of those affected are Indians who suffered abuse at the hands of priests in what is known as the Oregon Province of the Society of Jesus, which includes the states of Oregon, Washington, Alaska, Idaho and Montana, according to the local press.
goinghomesomeday1 11 months ago
@goinghomesomeday1 - certainly, where wrong has been done, then let the light shine fully upon it. But, let's not "throw the baby out with the bath water". Issues of child abuse are not confined to just the RCC. Let's all work to greater protect the innocent in out communities and the Church is very much committed to this - remember the level of abuse in the Church is way - WAY in the minority. Let's all remember, Christ was betrayed by a friend too - the victims suffering He knows well!
mmmail1969 9 months ago
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WASHINGTON – The Jesuit order has agreed to ay more than $166 million to the more than 500 victims who suffered sexual abuse when they were kids in Catholic schools in five states of the U.S. northwest, the victims’ attorney said.
Most of those affected are Indians who suffered abuse at the hands of priests in what is known as the Oregon Province of the Society of Jesus, which includes the states of Oregon, Washington, Alaska, Idaho and Montana, according to the local press.
goinghomesomeday1 11 months ago
@goinghomesomeday1
Need we show how many fathers, teachers, uncles, coaches, step fathers, other children etc etc etc have abused children?
The Church is not perfect, there are sinners, all humans are sinners. Don't let this cloud your opinion of the Church, as the Church is not those abusers, it is the the teachings of Jesus passed down to us by the Apostles.
178Lawrence 9 months ago
Venter is creaking open the most profound door in humanity's history, potentially peeking into its destiny. He is not merely copying life artificially ... or modifying it radically by genetic engineering. He is going towards the role of a god: creating artificial life that could never have existed naturally."
jormorcastan 11 months ago
Good God - reading some of the comments it comes across that God is a Roman Catholic!!
goinghomesomeday1 11 months ago
I am pretty sure that some power or force created us but I highly doubt that it was "god". Instead, look at the big picture. We live in a huge universe with billions of galaxies and planets with possible intelligent life in between. If there is intelligent life out there then they could possibly be millions of years advanced then we on earth are. Thus, intelligent life from another planet could have possibly created us many thousands of years ago. For what reason? I dont know.
truefitt101 1 year ago
@truefitt101 So you consider it more likely that life from another planet created us than it is that God created us?
Interesting.
Non-Christian religions seem fairly easy to debunk, but Christianity seems a little tougher. Among all of the world's religions, is there another where the founder's coming was foretold? Hundreds of prophecies were fulfilled in Jesus--far too many to be coincidence. Can this be simply dismissed?
WorkingCatholic 1 year ago
@WorkingCatholic It can if you start looking up all the other deity origin stories Jesus plagiarized. Also keep in mind that the only evidence for his existence happens to be the gospels which I'll be quick to remind you were written long after the supposed time he was alive. Throw in known times where bibles have been edited through history, gone through multiple translations, and is often taken on opposite sides of the same argument as evidence that they're right and all falls apart.
hockeater 1 year ago
@hockeater Friend, practically everything you're saying here is false. Take a look at N.T. Wright, Richard Bauckham, and Brant Pitre in order to get a much, much clearer picture.
wordonfirevideo 1 year ago
@wordonfirevideo Actually how about you look up extensive and exhaustive histories of the bible, religions that came before it long before it or the Jewish faith it borrowed heavily from, and the dates on the gospels before dismissing everything I just said out of hand. My sources are the things being talked about themselves rather than the words of a few people.
hockeater 1 year ago
@hockeater I've studied this material for years, friend. The better you know the Bible, the more you see how radically it differs from all the religions and ideologies that surround it.
wordonfirevideo 1 year ago 2
@wordonfirevideo The more you study the bible without rose tinted glasses of faith the more you realize that it's the typical faith book. Atrocity after atrocity, threat after threat, self contradiction after self contradiction all protected by flowery language and the faith of those made to believe it long before they were thinking rationally.
hockeater 1 year ago
@hockeater Friend, that's just for the birds. Please study the life and psychology of, say, Augustine of Hippo, Paul of Tarsus, Maximilian Kolbe, and Thomas Aquinas, and tell me that they were looking at anything through "rose colored glasses." These great biblical interpreters--like the biblical authors themselves--had a very canny sense of the fallen, conflictual, sinful quality of human life. What you see in the Bible is life--all of it, the good and the bad.
wordonfirevideo 1 year ago 5
@wordonfirevideo Human life is what we make of it not some inherently bad thing to be set in stone by bronze age dirt farmers. Life changes, people change, morality changes from person to person, and all things change over time. This is a basic and immutable fact of the reality we live in. Even the stars themselves change in measurable proven ways. My take on morality doesn't require me to kill anyone who disagrees with my take on morality or other horrible things.
hockeater 1 year ago
@hockeater Protect yourself and those dear to you and treat others as you'd expect to be treated. Learn what you can about the world we live in and cut away lies. Examine all things critically on there own merits and above all set nothing in stone. I wouldn't have problems with organized religions if they weren't trying to get us to worship a book of horrors and censor all who disagree throughout history. Any view should stand on its own merits rather than unquestioning loyalty to a single book.
hockeater 1 year ago
@hockeater -- Very well put and eloquently quoted
goinghomesomeday1 11 months ago
@goinghomesomeday1 Why thank you. I was going for dramatic moral reveal with tinges of disgust in places. Would you say I hit the mark?
hockeater 11 months ago
This video offers photos that pinpoint Rome as one prophetic entity.
"There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads (the city of Rome sits on 7 hills) and ten horns.The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet (colors of the clergy's garb), and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls (not difficult to see). She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries." Revelation 17:3-4
veggielover87 1 year ago
@veggielover87 --Revelations is speaking of a city, not a church and that city is ancient Rome.
GraveyardGhost559 1 year ago
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veggielover87 1 year ago
If Jesus comes back he will come back as a Jew not a Catholic. Did Jesus not refer to gentiles in derogatory terms calling them dogs? Did Jesus give Christians a let off from keeping the ten commandments? I'm refering to keeping the Sabbath day Holy? Sunday is not the Sabbath.
Roolooth99 1 year ago
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veggielover87 1 year ago
@Roolooth99 Thank you for having the courage to speak the unpopular truth. Lucifer is the true master of Rome.
veggielover87 1 year ago
@veggielover87 I didn't say anything of the sort about satan and the Catholic church. I was just making a point about Catholics who think that being Catholic is the most important thing and the only way to God. I have no agenda of hatred towards the Catholic church only a dislike for hypocrisy where I see it and that can apply to all faiths. All organised religions are the creation of men and as a result they can be flawed. I am not here to insult or or offend people, just discuss religion.
Roolooth99 1 year ago
@Roolooth99 --God created our Church: "And on this rock I will build my Church"-St Matthew.
GraveyardGhost559 1 year ago
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@GraveyardGhost559 @Roolooth99 --God created our Church: "And on this rock I will build my Church"-St Matthew. // That's what Jesus said to Peter, but he didn't mean to build any religion. Remeber that when JC and Pete first met, Jesus promised to turn him into a "fisherman". The sentence "And on this rock I will build my Church" is a reference to the "fisherman" thing: the 'rock' refers to the man who did not believe (old Peter), and the 'Church' is the man who is one with God (St. Peter)
ketlingambriz 1 year ago
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@GraveyardGhost559 @Roolooth99 --God created our Church: "And on this rock I will build my Church"-St Matthew. // That's what Jesus said to Peter, but he didn't mean to build any religion. Remeber that when JC and Pete first met, Jesus promised to turn him into a "fisherman". The sentence "And on this rock I will build my Church" is a reference to the "fisherman" thing: the 'rock' refers to the man who did not believe (old Peter), and the 'Church' is the man who is one with God (St. Peter)
ketlingambriz 1 year ago
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@GraveyardGhost559 That's what Jesus said to Peter, but he didn't mean to build any religion. Remeber that when JC and Pete first met, Jesus promised to turn him into a "fisherman". The sentence "And on this rock I will build my Church" is a reference to the "fisherman" thing: the 'rock' refers to the man who did not believe (old Peter), and the 'Church' is the man who is one with God (St. Peter). Remember the way Jesus used to talk.
ketlingambriz 1 year ago
No sheeps No shephers
jormorcastan 1 year ago
Question: Is there a role for 'reincarnation' in the Catholic Church? Jesus talks about it in the Bible, but priests don't talk too much about it...?
ZonaFilm 1 year ago
@ZonaFilm --Reincarnation is a false doctrine, and the bible does not speak of it.
GraveyardGhost559 1 year ago
@GraveyardGhost559 Of course the Bible does speak about reincarnation. Jesus himself talks about it (take a look again). And if-you're-brave-enough, compare JC's teachings with Buddha's and Krishna's, and prepare to get amazed.
ketlingambriz 1 year ago
@ketlingambriz -If reincarnation is true. what of the parable of the rich man who went to hell while Lazarus went to the Bosom of Our Father of Faith? The rich man implied that he was stuck there for good.
WayOfTheMaster454 1 year ago
@WayOfTheMaster454 It is a parable, remember. Think about the meaning of that story, not the words. Parables are like fables: fables are (often) meant for children needing a lesson about life; parables are meant for people needing a lesson about God.
Having Jesus Christ telling parables is pretty much like attending to the kindergarten of Heaven (hosting the best teacher ever!). Once you succeed that stage, you are ready for the next one; but you need to succeed, so pay attention to the Teacher.
ketlingambriz 1 year ago
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follow jesus and ask him to save you!
bass109 1 year ago
Do we need the Church to come to Christ? The bible exists beyond the church. There are probably passages in the bible that say what you need to come to Christ. I don't know them. I have family members who belong to a baptist church who believe that it takes only one thing to come to Christ and be saved. "Faith alone." The one and only criteria for attaining salvation is faith in Christ they believe. Thoughts?
Vezhil 1 year ago
@Vezhil Jesus Christ said that the Church he founded, who had Peter as the first Pope. (The Church in Rome, the Catholic Church) is the pillar of truth. All the other churches were founded by men and corrupted sola scripture. Vehzil, if anything, the Catholic Church. I was a Protestant and when I started going to the Catholic Church, half of my family (who are from those countless non-denominational protestant churches) attacked me because of it.. and then I realised they were ALL deceived.
Z1GGYK3V 1 year ago
@Z1GGYK3V Technically that doesn't directly answer the question. One Church was founded as the pillar of church, but men have been making decision in it since it was founded. Corruption has entered the Catholic Church (example: child molestation).
But lets assume one church is clearly the best, and it is yours, is it necessary for salvation? Currently I have not seen any argument that it is necessary, you argued it was best.
Vezhil 1 year ago
@leighgridley2 --Yes, the "uncaused cause" argument is only intended to point to the existence of a Deity.
Thunderhead889 1 year ago
God so loved the world that he gave his..John chapt3 he calls all to himself. Mat.11:28, he cast no one out. John6:37. he gives gift to to the church. Eph.4:8-11, and the purpose is..Eph.4:12-16. Ro. 12:6, 1Co. 12:4 read Ro. 10:11-13, Act 2:39 Mk. 1:15, Is.1:18, God build all things He.3:4, Mat.16:18 God calls us to unity. John 17:11, Eph.4:4,5. Mat.chapt.20. we obey and humble selves James 4:10, 1Peter 5:6, as Jesus did.Phil.2:8. Luke 18:10-16. Prov.27:2. raised cath, just sharing, B bless.
kbelfort77 1 year ago
MANY RELIGIONS SAY ACCEPT JESUS INTO YOUR HEART, BUT WHO ARE WE TO ACCEPT JESUS, ISNT HE GREATER THAN US, DOESNT HE ACCEPT US.
MSMOKER100 1 year ago
@MSMOKER100 In Life the heart of man would be the only place Jesus could be to be understood and feel at home. Can you picture Jesus and all his great Knownledge of great worldly knowledge having a Red Neck from Louisiana in his heart tring to figure what was going on and tring to get everything done before diner with the boys of Collard Greens and Pickled Pigs feet and desert of Rhubarb Pie ? Do you think the Lord would ever get over having this fellow in his heart ?Red Neck heart is better !
turtle4aire 1 year ago
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Catholic priests are pedophiles!!! shouldn't Catholics who are bestowed with the power of god be more resistant to the temptations of Satan. I'm not even religious and I've never raped a child.
Flytruefreedom 1 year ago
Sorry if that was a stupid question, by the way.
sterlingrose33 1 year ago
"Every baptized person is our brother & sister in Jesus Christ."
That is such a wonderful gift. That is beyond amazing. It means that, by virtue of our respective baptisms, you and I are brother and sister in Christ. I'm barely worthy of the very word, but it is true. Tell us, Father, can priests also learn from those of us sitting in the pews? What do you get from ministering to us, who sometimes get things wrong or backwards or mess it up, etc. Do priests need us in return?
sterlingrose33 1 year ago
@sterlingrose33 --Unfortunatley, even though some of the laity know more than the priest of the "boomer" generation, they are not open to our or the churches council. This is my experience on the matter.
AtomicMonster454 1 year ago
Why do people who are so vehemently opposed to God come onto this link??? If you are not into God, fine, get over it, and go to the Dawkins Link and vent your spleen there.
Newgrange73 2 years ago 3
@Newgrange73 I think I know why: they're like Herod, who imprisoned John the Baptist but secretly loved to listen to him. Many of the most outspoken opponents of religion are actually, deep down, passionate seekers.
wordonfirevideo 2 years ago
wordonfirevideo said: "Many of the most outspoken opponents of religion are actually, deep down, passionate seekers."
Amen to that. If only they knew they'd be so welcome into the bosom of the Church, and asking questions is not a bad thing, but the way one learns...
sterlingrose33 1 year ago
@Newgrange73
I think that people who are opposed to God often seek to challenge themselves and others about God. To this end, they come to respectable proponent of religion.
I am an atheist and I think that religion is a byproduct of human nature. We tend to jump to conclusions. God is not proven, but some people make a leap of faith to belief in God. I seek truth. I don't accept things unless there is sufficient evidence.
Also, I am interested in religion. It is strange and interesting to me.
Vezhil 1 year ago
So if every baptized person is a Catholic's brother/sister in Christ, how come a Lutheran or Baptist, etc, cannot receive Eucharist in a Catholic Church?
Not that anyone seems to check creds at the Communion rail. I do know of one Episcopalian who has attended Masses in a Catholic Church and she was never turned away from the rail. She received the Body and Blood just like anyone else.
sterlingrose33 2 years ago
Receiving the Eucharist means you believe everything the Church teaches and that you are in a state of Grace. Obviously a Lutheran or Baptist doesn't believe everything the Catholic Church teaches or they would be Catholic. And frankly, there are a lot of Catholics who should not be receiving the Eucharist because they don't meet these two requirements. As for your Episcopalian acquaintance, she was probably not turned away because no one knew she was not Catholic.
HammerofHeretics 2 years ago
Hammer...no no, she told me that the priest at that Catholic church was aware of her Episcopalian faith. She is now herself...are you sitting down...an Episcopal priest. Oh yes, heresy, I know, I know. Sometimes things do get a little crazy.
sterlingrose33 2 years ago
All one can do is shake one's head when a priest is so confused he doesn't understand the teachings of the Church as well as the lay people. May God open his mind and heart to the truth.
HammerofHeretics 2 years ago
Would you allow a Jew to be godfather to a Christian child? Your legitimate hesitation hasn't a thing to do with anti-Semitism; it has to do with the incompatibility of belief systems. Just as a Jew could not pledge his belief in Jesus Christ on behalf of a child, so a Lutheran or Presbyterian could not in good faith say "Amen" when a Catholic priest proposed the communion wafer as the body of Christ.
wordonfirevideo 2 years ago
@sterlingrose33
As an atheist I sometimes attend different church services. I received the body of Christ at both a Catholic church and a Baptist church, though I was not even raised in either tradition.
Vezhil 1 year ago
@Vezhil Why would you have done that? I don't get it.
wordonfirevideo 1 year ago
@wordonfirevideo
I wanted to participate. It's an interesting experience, taking part in religious ceremonies. At the Baptist church they specifically mentioned that they don't dictate weather or not you do it, it's between God and the participants.
At the Catholic church I was taken by my girlfriend who was raised catholic and it was my first time in the church. My girlfriend said they would assume I was Catholic.
As long as I don't offend anyone, is there any harm?
Vezhil 1 year ago
@Vezhil Perhaps God is leading you. I have no quarrel with someone coming to church out of an authentic desire to learn and understand. I was just puzzled why, if you truly don't believe in God, you would bother. My suspicion is that your atheism is perhaps not as firm as you thought!
wordonfirevideo 1 year ago 10
@wordonfirevideo
Could be. I do not believe in God, but I try to be open minded and consider the possibility of God. However, I repeatedly find the evidence to be insufficient. I'm not willing to make a leap of faith. God is possible, but an unlikely explanation for why things are as they are.
I am very interested in religion, despite not practicing it. I studied cognitive psychology (on my own, not for coursework) and then I moved toward religion.
Vezhil 1 year ago
@Vezhil Do you agree that contingent existence cannot be explained sufficiently simply through endless appeal to other contingent things? If you do, then you believe in what Catholic theology calls "God."
wordonfirevideo 1 year ago 3
@wordonfirevideo
I do believe that infinite regression does not explain contingent existence, but I do not believe that God (the unmoved mover) is the only solution. Some other solutions are an event without cause, that nothingness can cause something, and non-linear cause and effect. The latter two are seriously considered by theoretical physicists.
In truth, I do not know how this all came to be, but don't put God in the gaps of human knowledge or he will get smaller each day.
Vezhil 1 year ago
@Vezhil You know, friend, here's what I find really puzzling. You think that believing in God involves way too great a leap of faith, yet you're willing to believe that something can come from nothing! That latter proposition would take, for me, an infinite leap of faith to believe in.
wordonfirevideo 1 year ago 15
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@wordonfirevideo
I am willing to believe it if and only if there is sufficient evidence. As yet, there is not, and therefor I do not believe this claim. I meant only to expose the false dichotomy of your argument.
"an infinite leap of faith" -what do you mean infinite? I suspect you simply mean that this seems outlandish to you, and indeed, quantum physics makes many outlandish claims. Do you similarly dismiss other claims of quantum physics, on what grounds? Consider: "vacuum fluctuations."
Vezhil 1 year ago
@wordonfirevideo The reason I think the leap of faith to belief in God is so great is that I have sought evidence and found it lacking. Now it could be that there is a God, and it could be that there is not. Is there any way to tell without dieing first?
There could be a flying spaghetti monster, how could I know?
Can something come from nothing? Not in our every day experience it seems, put perhaps if conditions were different...
How can we tell? Science can explore the question!
Vezhil 1 year ago
@Vezhil Was that a Bullet that wizzed over the top of my head ! Them 50 cent words are a problem with me and I bet there is a bunch more who seem to have a bullet wizz over the top of their head also ! Could I get you to lower those words to the 10 cent word level so I can understand them Please ? The reason I say this is I see you have a handle on what is going on here and can explain it in great detail ! Please ?
turtle4aire 1 year ago
@turtle4aire Sorry for the confusion. I'm not really sure what words are causing you difficulty, but if you mention things I said I can try to clarify.
Father Barron and I have been talking about weather or not it makes sense to believe in God. How can you tell if there is a God? I also talked a bit about some physics which deals with how the universe (all of everything) got here. To him, it seems that even considering some of the scientific explanations is a big leap of faith.
Vezhil 1 year ago
@turtle4aire WAT IF DAT REDNECK WAS DESTINED FOR SOMTHING GREAT BUT JESUS DIDNT WANT TO REVEAL IT TO HIM CUZ HE HAD TO DO IT FIRST AND CHANGE HIS ENTIRE LIFE AND PERSPECTIVE ON IT AND HAVE A CHANGE OF HEART!
MSMOKER100 1 year ago
@Vezhil Vehzil. Two words, physical world and a spiritual world. Being interested in religion is because God is inviting you to the Christian faith. :D I felt the same thing when I was a Christian Protestant, I had a feeling like yours about being really interested and in the urge of going back right in my heart asking me to come back.
Z1GGYK3V 1 year ago
@Z1GGYK3V Two words...?
Anyway, is the spiritual world not part of the physical world...or at least an effect of the physical world? Like cyber space is kind of like part of the physical reality in a way...
Am I being invited by God? I don't think I hear him. I think that my interest is my own. Do you believe God is reaching into my mind and...exercising some kind of control, through what interests me? Would that not violate free will?
Do I really have reason to believe in God? What is it?
Vezhil 1 year ago
Claiming that the Catholic Church had received Apostolic authority as a "gift" from God and that the Catholic Church is "properly shepherded" doesnt bode well for the shepherd. The Catholic Church presided over 600 years of Inquisitional brutality. Recent revelations about worldwide abuse of children by clergy show that the Vatican (Ratzingers 1962 letter) facilitated the abuse by directing that the crimes be kept secret. So any claim to be properly shepherded by a loving God is false.
Baloneydetective 2 years ago
Bad Catholics don't equate to bad Catholicism, just as bad Americans don't negate American ideals. The authority I'm referring to is largely a doctrinal authority, the maintenance of the church in right belief. The Pope's infallibility hasn't a thing to do with his practical decisions.
wordonfirevideo 2 years ago
The Church's history precludes any claim to special treatment from a loving and just God. Claiming that the heinous actions of the official Church are attributable to some renegade "bad Catholics" and not the Church itself, is untenable.
Baloneydetective 2 years ago
Americans were responsible, in World War II alone, for the deaths of at least a million innocent civilians. Does that mean that the American constitution is morally suspect or that the American experiment in liberal democracy is to be discredited? Yes, Catholics have done terrible things over the centuries, sometimes in the name of the church. But this doesn't mean that Catholic Christianity, in its essential features, is corrupt.
wordonfirevideo 2 years ago
The U.S. makes no claim to have special guidance among nations from a shepherding, just and loving God. And its checkered history provides ample evidence that it has not received such guidance. The Catholic Church makes such a claim. The official Church has done "terrible things" (not individual Catholics acting without official church sanction) calling such an extraordinary claim into serious question. I am a great admirer of the American Constitution with its capacity for amendment.
Baloneydetective 2 years ago
And the Church has reformed and amended its behavior frequently in the course of twenty centuries. An ancient Catholic motto is "ecclesia semper reformanda,"( the church must always be reformed). Take a good look at the 21 councils for the details. And the church claims divine guidance in regard to its essential faith claims and the efficacy of its sacraments, not in regard to the practical decisions of its leaders.
wordonfirevideo 2 years ago
If an omnipotent, omniscient God whom you claim to be pure love, was shepherding his/her/its chosen church, then the "practical decisions" of its leaders, that affected so many people for so many years, would be of paramount importance to a god of love. Such a god would never permit such egregious evil to permeate those decisions. That behavior effectively refutes any claim of divine guidance.
Baloneydetective 2 years ago
An obvious question comes to mind when evaluating the church's claim of divine guidance by a loving God. How could such a God allow its chosen church to engage in such despicable behavior for so long? About 80 popes presided over the church during the 600 year-long Inquisition. The last execution for witchcraft in Holland was1610; in England 1684; America 1692; France 1745; Germany 1775; Poland 1793 and lastly - Italy. The Catholic Church didnt abolish the use of torture until 1816.
Baloneydetective 2 years ago
How, precisely, would God determine that human beings be good without negating their freedom? Why do people do evil things? Because they're free and freedom is susceptible to abuse. Stop blaming God for our sins!
wordonfirevideo 2 years ago
Did you intend to post this comment in your "Hell" video as it doesn't seem relevant here?
Baloneydetective 2 years ago
No. I was responding to your apparent insinuation that the loving God could utterly control the behavior of the followers of Christ! If we're free, we're going to do bad things. Don't blame God.
wordonfirevideo 2 years ago
The reason for my question is that my comments here were all directed to the subject of the video i.e. "What gifts does God give to the Catholic Church?" I focused upon the disparity between the Catholic Church's claim of special guidance from God and its record over many centuries that calls that claim into question. My rejection of your "free will" argument as justification for creation of a place of eternal torment is stated in my posts in your "comments on hell" video.
Baloneydetective 2 years ago
Friend, please attend to what I actually argued in the video. I claimed that Christ has given the church the essential gifts that make it a bearer of Christ's presence to the world--sacraments, liturgy, eucharist, apostolic governance, the saints, etc. That doesn't mean for a moment that those gifts are not sometimes misused or that sin has somehow been miraculously eradicated from the hearts of church people. You're reacting to an overstatement of my position.
wordonfirevideo 2 years ago
It's unrealistic to claim that a benevolent God, intent on evangelizing the world, would allow his principal, earthly, evangelizing, institution to sink to such depths of corruption. An omniscient god would foresee and take action to assure his chosen church remains a steady beacon of goodness. So the provision of those rituals (sacraments) would pale in importance when compared to the absolute necessity of protecting his chosen vessel of instruction from losing moral authority.
Baloneydetective 2 years ago 2
Again, friend, how could God do this without utterly suspending human freedom? If human beings are free, some will abuse their freedom. To "guarantee" that everyone behaves is tantamount to denying freedom of choice.
wordonfirevideo 2 years ago
How would you know what a omniscient God would do, being that you are not omniscient?
HammerofHeretics 2 years ago
An omniscient god who is purported to be a god of love, justice and compassion would foresee the horrendous suffering of humans and all other creatures based on his alleged plan and would have devised a plan that reflected love, justice and compassion. He, she, it would not be the petty, unjust, vindictive, genocidal, malevolent bully depicted in the Bible.
Baloneydetective 2 years ago
You must be reading a different Bible than I am. First, what makes you think you understand "the big picture" better than Creator of time and space? You are like a man trying to understand the human body by carefully examining a fingernail. You simply don't have the requisite information to make a judgment on this.
Childbirth involves suffering and yet women continue to submit to it of their own free will even after they've experienced it once it. Why? The end result is worth it.
HammerofHeretics 2 years ago
Huh???
Baloneydetective 2 years ago
Sorry, you'll have to be a little more explicit.
HammerofHeretics 2 years ago
Ok - How does your "fingernail" and "childbirth" analogies provide any justification for the evil actions of the petty, unjust, vindictive, genocidal, malevolent god described in the Bible?
Baloneydetective 2 years ago
Let me break it down for you. I was expressing two different concepts. First, that you don't have enough information to make judgments on the big picture (that's the fingernail analogy). Second, that suffering can bring about good things, like new human beings and it's worth enduring it for that reason. Why suffering occurs we do not always know, but God does, and he doesn't allow it unless it is the best way to bring about an essential good.
HammerofHeretics 2 years ago
Perhaps you can provide the missing information. Why is the god of the Bible a petty, unjust, vindictive, genocidal, malevolent bully? Mark Twain described the Judaeo-Christian God as follows: "He slay, slays, slays, all the men, all the beasts, all the boys, all the babies; also all the women and all the girls except those that have not been deflowered..... What the insane Father required was blood and misery....."
Baloneydetective 2 years ago
Let me ask you this, if you knew a group of people were going to that ruin the chances for salvation for every single person ever to be born past and present, and that their deaths would make it possible for anyone who sincerely sought salvation could have a chance at eternal life, what would you do? Choose to let these people live until natural death and ultimately be condemned to eternal "prison" along with every other human being? Or would you kill them for the greater good of humanity?
HammerofHeretics 2 years ago
Before I can answer your question please explain how some "group of people" can "ruin the chances of salvation for every single person ever to be born past and present". What group of people do you have in mind?
Baloneydetective 2 years ago
The group I'm talking about is the group Twain was referring to--the Midianites. God gave Moses some pretty basic rules to stay in His good graces--ten of them to be precise. The Midianites routinely violated the top one, idolatry. If the Israelites had fallen into massive idolatry due to the Midianites, Jesus could not have come to them to save us all because the Israelites wouldn't have recognized him as coming from the true God. If you notice, it's not until the Midianites start...
HammerofHeretics 2 years ago
..to infect the Israelites with their idolatry that God commands their deaths. Rebuilding a bridge between man and God was not an easy task after the fall, because man kept getting in the way of progress. I don't really expect you to believe that salvation exists, but I do want to show you that for those who believe it does and that it was achieved through Jesus Christ, God's destruction of the Midianites is easily viewed as an act intended to achieve the greatest good.
HammerofHeretics 2 years ago
So God sanctions the very practices that a supposedly loving and compassionate god should abhor, namely murder, rape, enslavement and child abuse. You defend this carnage by claiming that god, supposedly possessing infinite wisdom, has no choice but to resort to the most heinous and evil acts.
Baloneydetective 2 years ago
In Joshua and in Numbers the mass murder of men, women, children, down to the domestic animals in city after city across the whole land of Canaan, is celebrated. Jericho is obliterated in a holy war. The only justification offered for this slaughter is the mass murderers' claim that, in exchange for circumcising their sons and adopting a particular set of rituals, their ancestors were long before promised that this land was their land.
Baloneydetective 2 years ago
@HammerofHeretics Similar stories of mass murder (and in the case of the Amalekites, genocide) are found in Saul, Esther, and elsewhere in the Bible, There is no expression of moral doubt. There is no self-reproach, no patriarchal or divine disquiet concerning these campaigns of extermination to be found in holy scripture. So is it any wonder that the Bible has inspired so much carnage throughout the centuries?
Baloneydetective 2 years ago
Should God apologize for doing what is best for humanity? And why would there be any doubt on His part? He knows all and sees all. You keep trying to reduce God to one of us, and he's not one of us at all.
I think you are wrong when you say it doesn't bother Him, though. I think it bothers Him very much when people throw away the gifts that he has given them and nothing would please Him more if every used their freedom wisely. He does not want souls to be lost.
HammerofHeretics 2 years ago
@HammerofHeretics I assure you, I do not desire to "reduce God to one of us". Hopefully, we are not, as Catholic doctrine claims, made in the image of the Biblical god. However, if that is the case, it would suggest a reason why many individuals in our species have committed such heinous crimes against one another.
If there is a god who is aware of our species that has evolved on this tiny spec of cosmic dust called Earth, I hope it is nothing like the god depicted in the Bible.
Baloneydetective 2 years ago
I assure you, the God of the Bible did not "evolve". There is no need to evolve when you have have always been and always will be perfect. You look at things from such a constricted perspective I can see why you have problems understanding how something that might on the micro level appear horrible, be something that is ordered toward the greatest good. .
HammerofHeretics 2 years ago
@HammerofHeretics My post states that we evolved on planet Earth and not the god of the Old Testament. The origin of that god was in the minds of the biblical scribes.
Baloneydetective 2 years ago
No, you were talking about the prospects of a hypothetical God that evolved from cosmic dust. That actually is quite a bit more illogical than the concept of god held by the ancient philosophers, who understood that a contingent thing like the universe cannot be the source of its own existence.
HammerofHeretics 2 years ago
@HammerofHeretics Don't accuse me of lying. To my knowledge, there is no record of anyone ever claiming that god is a product of evolution. Deliberately twisting my words, even after offering a clarification of my intended meaning, is a blatant attempt to create a strawman ripe for attack. When you resort to fallacious agurments of logic and rhetoric, you demonstrate a lack of confidence in your ability to defend your contentions.
Baloneydetective 2 years ago
"If there is a god who is aware of our species that has evolved on this tiny spec of cosmic dust called Earth"--Baloneydetective
This is the comment I was referring to, and yes, I have heard Dawkins make ridiculous comments about God not being able to exist because He would have had to "evolve." My point is that no believer would ever think anything so ridiculous, so why bring it up?
HammerofHeretics 2 years ago
Even after my clarification to you concerning the intent of my comment: ".....our species that has evolved on this tiny spec of cosmic dust called Earth": to convey the idea that our species evolved and not god, you rejected of my explanation. That rejection indicates your continued need for a strawman to attack. I'm not familiar with Dawkins' comment that you "heard". Dawkins has commented that if God exists we would then need to explain where he came from.
Baloneydetective 2 years ago
I didn't reject your explanation of what you meant, I explained what I was responding to in your comment. You acted like I pulled the idea out of thin air, but I pulled it from your comment and added that I'd heard Dawkins say something similar. It's bad philosophy and I don't know why you'd even bring the idea up. If there's one thing that Christianity teaches it's that He is not like anything in His creation and that He was never created because HE IS who IS.
HammerofHeretics 2 years ago
You misinterpreted my comment and when I offered a clarification you said "No" and repeated the misinterpretation. And here again you are attempting to associate my comment with something you "heard" Dawkins say. And that alleged comment of Dawkins, inferring the evolution of god, has nothing to do with my reference to the evolution of man. Your posts continue to be strawmen.
Baloneydetective 2 years ago
Was I supposed to be arguing with you about the evolution of man? Sorry to disappoint, but evolution is a scientific theory that stands or falls on the basis of scientific evidence, it has nothing to do with my religious beliefs. If it turns out Darwin was 100% right about the origins of species (and I don't think even the neo-Darwinists would grant that) it would do nothing to my belief that God created the cosmos.
HammerofHeretics 2 years ago
I think that many people who profess faith in God do not claim to base that faith on scientific evidence.
Baloneydetective 2 years ago
Faith is a gift of hope in things that have been promised by not yet delivered. It should never be irrational, however. I believe in the promises of Jesus because I believe Jesus is who He said He was. I don't believe this strictly because the Bible says it, however, because a book can't be self-authenticating.
HammerofHeretics 2 years ago
Also, there is no mention of your freedom argument in this video. This video attempts to convince viewers that the Catholic Church is the one true church because it has all the necessary gifts. However, your "Comments on Hell" video does use the "freedom" argument to justify God's creation of an eternal place of torture. Finally, I don't blame God for creating an eternal place of torture because there is no such place.
Baloneydetective 2 years ago
Again, you haven't really listened to my argument. I never said that the Catholic Church is "the one true church." In fact, I argued explicitly that other churches have many of the gifts that the Catholic church has and that sometimes they exercise particular charisms more effectively than the Catholic church does. In regard to Hell, you can't defend both God's love and human freedom without affirming the possibility of the free human rejection of that love.
wordonfirevideo 2 years ago