Has Science Made Belief In God Unreasonable? (J. P. Moreland)

[jeffsemore]

when I must except science by faith it become counterintuitive in my opinion

[MeistroMac91]

Anyone whos anyone overlooks that one main law of physics is "Energy can neither be created nor destroyed" just converted. If you all havent noticed by now, most energy is converted by humans. So whos to say there is no being of a higher power who created the universe???

[KevZen2000]

Science is an empirical process, which goes about exploring the world within a methodological naturalistic approach, via the scientific methodology. It’s impossible to prove or disprove God(s) via science; you can only discredit various claims of God, if they involve the natural realm. Science will not lead to any fruitful conclusions, if one goes out methodological naturalism, and it’s better not to explore God with science, because it’s totally opposite in methodology.

[Matchstick41]

Thank you kindly for this.

[mexsantos007]

I beileve in god

[1cor13Godislove]

I have worked as a scientist for over 30 years. We all have assumptions as we explore evidence. Honest scientists admit their own asumptions and that of other scientists without the need for insults or name calling. We truly enjoy open discourse, freedom to disagree, explore info from all sources. Each year, we see our own limits and most of us extol the virtues of a clear logical organization found in all of living beings. Moreland has one of the clearest voices in logic!

[MultiSamwel]

great video.. defend you faith! god bless

[ephemeralsaga]

Moreland certainly shows logical arguments however they don't necessarily point to a god or supreme being. For instance, although highly improbable it is possible that the "fine tuning" of the universe is indeed due to chance. In addition, this belief that no life could possibly exist if the factors are different is only comes only from what we humans currently know about life on our planet. It may indeed be possible for life to exist indifferent conditions.

[MultiSamwel]

@davelantor he took more time on earth?.. fine tuned galaxy! this is just a basic guideline..people would not understand back then because certain words were not invented..(god made us this way) to learn! open your eyes..

[davelantor]

@MultiSamwel humans were not in that 6 days genius. my example is to point out that from a sheep herders perspective as he made up shit, it would have been reasonable to give a timeline of single day for all the stars and planets in the universe.

All the trillions of planets, stars, nebulas.. taking a single day, .. But our tiny planet, which btw is not fine tuned for human life, only takes 6 days, i guess there is not a proper number to tell the factor of stupidity in that ratio.

Open your eyes

[davelantor]

@MultiSamwel btw, keep in mind humans consist of Man and Woman ... and also there is an other stupidity there ... if god first created man ... why did it give man genitals ? ... as far as the story goes he hasnt made the woman from the rib of the man.

Its a story created by a sheep herder, that had no idea how things worked, the ancient book you consider as truth was written ~30 years after the events took place, and contains only recordings of the supernatural events .. grow up .. its obvious.

[MultiSamwel]

@davelantor and historical evidence of jesus(outside the new testament).. there is more evidence of jesus than julius ceasor.. but obviously you want to believe in ''the universe come out of magic'' rather than a super intelligent life form..he might of gave men genitals because he knew adam was going to decieve him? seeing as hes all knowing?

[davelantor]

@MultiSamwel What evidence ? ... please, show me a single writing that mentions jesus other then bible.

All the stories about the jesus are written by people who heard those stories from 3rd parties that were already in the business of trying to promote the religion.

Btw, you point out yet an other stupid thing about bible.

If god was all knowing ... how come he allowed the snake in the garden ?

If god is all knowing .. how com he has to "test" Abraham's faith by asking him to sacrifice his son.

[MultiSamwel]

@davelantor Look for yourself..the first would be the talmud which says yeshua of nazareth is condemned to death for sorcery aka miracles..i cant remember many more of the top of my head..Why would roman guards and rabbis try and spread the word of GOD when they dislike jesus (rabbi's because he spoke truth) and pagen(roman)..jesus was a polite,forgiven person from an atheist point of view..Why do atheist digg at him so much?,, he never promoted violence but to forgive..

[MultiSamwel]

@davelantor napoleon said..

"Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne and I myself have founded great empires; but upon what did these creations of our genius depend? Upon force. Jesus alone founded His empire upon love, and to this very day millions will die for Him."

communism is atheist.. and that sounds perfect..

you will find things wrong if you look in the bible to hard because it was written by humans..not by god only by the word..

[davelantor]

@MultiSamwel LOL, agian .. 2 more idiot points.

Napoleon was born in ~1770, you might as well write "god is real" on a paper and show that as historic evidence.

I like how you go and say .. "it was written by humans" indeed it was, it was made up by people who though slavery was ok , people who thought raping woman and taking them as property was ok.

it was written by people who didnt knew any better.

God isnt real, its not that hard to notice. Dont live in denial, open your mind, think a bit.

[MultiSamwel]

@davelantor agian??,,(whos the idiot).. yes but your not understanding what im trying to tell you..IGNORANT ATHEIST..the people who writ the bible might have believed in what you say..(theres me cutting you slack)..but all of the things jesus does and says does NOT provoke the things you just said..ok the prophets might of writ it but jesus didn't say that..jesus had respect for women..Prove GOD isn't real please.the napoleon comment is what im trying to say the differance between atheist/theist

[davelantor]

@MultiSamwel "sorcery aka miracles" ... you mean every woman that was burned for claims of sorcery was actually performing miracles ? ... lol .. please stop trying to stretch words :) how come all knowing god allowed his word to be twisted to justify slavery, genocide, tribal warfare fallowed by rape and looting.

was that again "Testing" while already knowing the outcome :P

Also just if a guy named Jesus existed and there were miracle stories written 30 years after his death means they are true?

[MultiSamwel]

@davelantor wait your twisting it..were did jesus say its ok to kill,slave,or any bad thing for that matter?..if jesus came tomorrow would there be need for faith in him?..NO..so atheist who disbelieved in him would become christian just to go to heaven..?.in a nice way jesus said behave and love one another but atheist seem to pick at him..you guys deep down are empty,HONESTLY,oh and btw im doing a-levels in physics,maths and historyand a few other subjects so looks like your the dumb one?

[davelantor]

@MultiSamwel wait, you believe this God character exists because you want to go to heaven ?

Also thats the retarded thing about religion, it requires you to have faith, regardless how much it lacks proof, sure if there was a recorded even that would clearly indicate the existence of such creature, there would no longer need for faith. But we dont see that happen, all you got is Faith that it exists.

LOL, i doubt your credentials, and expecting me to believe that just shows how dumb you are :)

[MultiSamwel]

@davelantor ok fella.. your a lost cause and who doesn't want to go to heaven?..theres so much proof like the talmud etc..you go on in life believing in nothing,believing in ''LUCK'' .. the is such evidence youve just got to look harder and an atheist life is easy tbh you can drink have sex take drugs WHO CARES AY!..GOD BLESS.

P.S. give me proof there is no existance of GOD..

[davelantor]

@MultiSamwel "believing in nothing,believing in LUCK" .. simply i dont believe people who make assertions like "God", without ever needing to provide proof, And then they show the best of stupidity when they ask "Prove it doesnt exist"..

Ex in court: Magic unicorns killed it, and made it look like i did ...Well since we cant disprove magic unicorns involvement .. it must be true.

Only a person who thinks god doesnt need to be proven and atheist must disprove it, would be stupid enough to believe

[MultiSamwel]

@davelantor you are MAD.. you honestly are completly fruity.. i have no time for people believing in unicorns whilst mocking christianity..you have no proof to disaprove god.WHAT A SHAME!.. The bibles not proof and famous historians/archaeologists who have converted to christianity because there is so much proof(go to a libary and research),jesus loves you and thats something you have no choice about..you may hate christians and the morals but i will still pray for you..

[davelantor]

@MultiSamwel i put the God concept to same place as i put the claim that unicorns exist.

Its you who is MAD, you cant even understand why one cant disprove claims such as unicorns.

Yet you ask to disprove God. You are either a idiot or seriously brainwashed.

You are either Trolling or i have to decrease my opinion regarding the minimum intelligence level of a human.

Since you dont want to understand why disproving God is a silly requirement, i used a similar thing ... since you are a bit "slow".

[MultiSamwel]

@davelantor first of all your trolling on a christian creationist video and secondly you can officially refute what you are talking about because it is complete and utter nonsense..the bible,historical eveidence and faith.. you just don't want to believe,its easier not to believe..a requirement?.. i was a former aggressive atheist towards any theists including buddhists who believe in many deitys..but i researched and researched,,,,soooo wheres your proof that GOD doesn't exist?..NONE

[davelantor]

@MultiSamwel HAHA.. You are so easy.

1- Historical evidence, LOL .. i am not the one that pointed out a quote that was made over 1700 years after the events ..

2- You cant ask people "proof that XXX doesn't exist" .. its just silly, i guess you consider all imaginary things real. Until proven otherwise.

3- Where is your proof that your magic sky daddy exists ?. is it a feeling you want to point out now ?. or perhaps an other quote.

LOL, you cant even tell what the atheist position is.. YOU FAIL

[MultiSamwel]

@davelantor YOU ATHEIST FANBOY..ANF THERE IS SEVEN TYPES OF POSITIONS FOR ATHEISM ACTUALLY!..AND OK SO ALL THE RUBISH YOU SPOKE BEFORE HAS BEEN REFUTED BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE FOR CLAIMS BASICALLY ON BOTH SIDES SO ITS A STALEMATE.. I KNOW THERE IS A GOD..

[davelantor]

@MultiSamwel You claim all the things i mentioned been refuted ... yet you go no further then claims ... Ow thats right .. because you either read that someone "argument X has been refuted" from a 3rd party source, or you makeup shit as you go along.

If you know there is a God, just like people who know there are alien abductions, or just like people who know big foot exists... lol, claiming knowledge is easy .. proving it exists and not imaginary.. noe that will require more then just claims :)

[MultiSamwel]

@davelantor and thats the problem with atheist.. they are the problem..you answer the fine tuning is insignificant..the galaxy is fine tuned if things were a billionth of the size bigger or smaller the universe could not and would not support life..you are not trying to find god,your just trying to disaprove him every time..your a lost cause

[davelantor]

@MultiSamwel In science you dont try to fit evidence in to a model ...

you make the model based on the evidence.

Not with theists, they try to relate everything to their invisible assertion. and everything that contradicts that asserted model becomes a lie, a conspiracy to undermine their invisible authority figure. And if you point out how retarded that approach is .. then they consider you as the problem.

Not even for a seconds thinking to reconsider..

You are a poor excuse for a Homo sapien.

[MultiSamwel]

@davelantor The shit you write is complete bollox.. your obv a fat retard who has no goal in life.. you sound communist.. galileo and isaac newton worked with science KNOWING there is a GOD..DISAPROVE THAT SHIT MO-FO..parallel universe LOL OK.. Stop being so gullible and look into historical finds..Who says these things that you come out with? a fucking conspiracy are you on drugs.. forget the catholic church a sec here and name me an example? your good for nothing.

[davelantor]

@MultiSamwel i dont need to disprove the superstitions of people who lived a long time ago ... guess what .. many good people also worked for a better understanding of world around us while thinking the world was flat.

We dont go and say "ow look, they believed the world was flat, so it must be true".. NO .. we know better .. accumulated knowledge of human race keeps increasing.

People tried filling all the unknowns with "God did it", science is filling those blanks. so we know better.

you fail.

[davelantor]

@MultiSamwel btw, i want to correct a mistake i made .. while saying we .. i meant people who actually are interested in knowing these thing ... you would be excluded since you still think we are in bronze age.

ok, a simple question, what does evolution explain (or call it attempt to explain if you cant grasp the question)? ... Please for once try to give a intelligent answer ... i want to see how wrong i am about your level of knowledge with this simple issue.

[MultiSamwel]

@davelantor ITS ALL ABOUT THE FINE TUNING BIATCH!!

[davelantor]

@MultiSamwel "Fine Tuning" argument is a long debunked argument, lol, and you claim to have a physics background.

In a simple sense ... less then 10^(-10000)% of universe is suitable for life .. fine tuned .. RIIIGHT ...

But so far as can be seen, you are not capable of understanding this. so here is a simple video:

/watch?v=tCKqj-2JXZg

Maybe you will understand this. Which i doubt .. given your track record so far.

[MultiSamwel]

my track record your a gaming freak from turkey.. your mind is not set on the task at hand here? what do you work as?..what qualifications do you have?..or have you just been watching to many atheist fanboy videos like christopher hitchens..the universe is fine tuned theres no way you can disaprove this and also we know the universe had a beginning..two things that agrees with christianity..if an electron HAD a minute amount more or less charge there would be NO LIFE..STOP PLAYING VIDEO GAMES

[davelantor]

@MultiSamwel lol, yeh .. judge someone based on their hobbies.

what ever it takes to divert the subject and try to avoid intelligent conversation by attack to personal interests.

How intellectual of you ... thats sarcasm in case you are to stupid :)

I am not the one who is constantly repeating the same copy paste arguments ...

One can tell because you constantly skip from subject to subject ... and after my profile page now we are back at the fine tuning ... Guess what ... its not fine tuned .

[davelantor]

@MultiSamwel "Prove GOD isn't real" LOL, lets point out why this is stupid.

Its same as saying, prove me Aliens/big foot/unicorns doesnt exist, It cant be done.

The burden of proof is on the person making the claim, Meaning the person that claims such creatures exist,

Until then its in the Bullshit category.

Would you say:

"Ow we must PROVE Zeus, Flying spaghetti monster, Thor, Aliens, all that other fictional crap doesnt exist, until then we must admit they exist"

NO, you ask for proof.. silly.

[hexusziggurat]

excellent video!

[DIURYL77]

nice video.

[serpentinessarecute]

I think that this exact idea, that science actually supports theism, is too often overlooked or buried under ludicrous claims made by mindless atheists...

[bjeh001]

@serpentinessarecute Your statement seems like whats called projection. Atheist arent making the mindless claims (at least in matters of apologetics). Listen to any religious person talk and thats all they have is unsupport belief. If science actually supported theism then theism would be a science and would have objective and corroberated observation to support it.

[rfvidz]

@bjeh001 Well, athiests do make "mindless" calims. After all, they think mindless matter made mindful humans. Theism makes plenty of claims that can be supported by science. For one, the universe had a beginning. The Second Law of Thermodynamics supports this claim. Why not try watching the video to see how instead of making flippant and cowardly drive-by comments?

[moomin468]

I haven't heard of that argument from consciousness before. Thats interesting. Perhaps we could say something like this. I, a mind, can arrange stones into a circle which is intentional and designed. however, matter can accidentally arrange stones into circles. When I do it the chance of it happening is 100% and its up to chance wether matter does it. However, matter can mimic the same outputs as expected of minds. Not saying it wasn't God that created minds, just its not necessarily god

[hexusziggurat]

@moomin468 makes it sound so simplistic. Though i want you to line up about 10 to the power of 84 stones perfectly so the universe can allow life to actually happen......then do something almost as extraordinary to line up the chance of life actually occuring. Then line it up again to have a planet that can actually establish life on it. Then do it again so that a species is capable of actually gainng a serious enough concious to realize all this. Its a bit more than a "circle of stones".

[moomin468]

@hexusziggurat I was talking about the argument from consciousness rather than the argument from design. However, on the argument from design - since you raise it - there is a problem with relying on intuition of it being 'too improbable'. Improbable - yes and that is objective. Too improbable is a subjective interpretation. This is my problem with design arguments. I think better arguments are found else where such as Cosmological and Moral arguments.

[hexusziggurat]

@moomin468 i'll have to agree with you. I just thought the "circle of stones" sounded like it was a falling a little short from the way i interpreted it. Thankyou for the clarification. Be well.