Secret in the Dirt: Pronation, Supination and Plane

[sicilianmuse]

These videos are fantastic. At first I was annoyed by the camera man, but now I think his personality is great. The unprofessional nature of these videos is part of what makes them so fun and interesting, especially after you realize how knowledgeable sevam is, and more importantly what a pure and consistent ball striker he is. Slick and professional mean nothing if the beef is not there. An expert masquerading as a regular dude! Love it.The lake setting is perfect and adds mystique. And Casey!

[sicilianmuse]

I've watched most of sevam's videos, and I liked this the best so far--simply because there are less interruptions. The camera man seems like a nice kid, and gives the videos a personal feeling, which is great, but sometimes the focus is lost, and depth compromised. I was even annoyed with Elkington in the clinic video. He needs a video situation where he can just GO, extended thematic sessions without distraction, kind of like an improv jazz guy. I think he's interesting enough to pull it off.

[silowhore]

its funny i never even noticed that i twisted my left arm during the backswing until i seen this video and took notice of what i was doing

[Dano831]

Great tip...worked wonders for me. Thanks!

[Gyro911]

This swing = shank and dribblers on the course. No way in hell can you consistantly square the club face to the ball on a bad lie with that shallow swing.

[whirledpower]

no offense, but you sound like a basketcase who can't ever decide on a swing from day to day!! no way you are less than a 4

[TheNYgolfer]

I came to learn about pronation and supination and ended up learning something more important. I've heard it over and over that on the backswing you should not shift your weight to the outside of your right foot(swaying) , but NO ONE has ever explained WHY (except to say that moving the head is bad).Finally someone explains it in a way that makes sense. It's easier to stay as close as possible to the same plane going back as well as forward.Nice job!

[gaggleofbombers]

The upper left arm will "roll" at the ball and socket joint automatically as a result of moving across the chest. But it won't be enough to rotate the clubface to parallel (square) to the plane at the top. For that, the left wrist must roll independently. So to show the upper arm roll with no wrist roll is silly, because not only will the wrist follow, but roll even more. These are the biomechanical facts.

[chrisw1245]

Sevam i have a question, so its ok to pronate before you start our swing, because it has helped my ball striking a lot but it just doesn't seem right, when i look at the pros they all have there elbows towards there hip bones at address. But when i swing i cant seem to do it without it at address

[sevam1]

@chrisw1245 Use this and set it up for yourself in whatever way get you your personal best results. There is no one single universal way to do this. Being aware of what is happening is the main point that i was trying to make in this video.

[TheBBusher]

Sevam I watched this vid about a year ago and honestly I didnt know what you meant, but today I found that feeling, I never put much thought into what I do immediately after the takeaway, this rotation (as well as hindging the wrists) is it! wow once I did it I remembered this youtube vid I never quite understood and BAM its exactly what Im doing, its a strong sensation but it doesnt look like much when you watch a swing. Im blown away, you really know what you,re talking about after all lol thx

[BirdieBlues]

since I started focusing on a bowed rather than just a flat left wrist I seemed to have cleared up my fat shots? why is this?

[quasiphatpaul]

@BirdieBlues because you're hitting through the ball now instead of at the ball into theground.

[ChrisPerkinsFamily]

Thank you - excellent info. I have many swings and am still searching for mine (15 year journey so far), I tried this out yesterday and it resulted in some of the best contact/striking I have had in years. I am working with my son on it as well. Thanks for taking the time to share.

[samimalmstrom]

As a golf instructor myself I get my students to roll their left forearm in the backswing like you mentioned in the video. However, a lot of them struggle, but its a very good point you made about having the left forearm 'pre-set' in that position. Never thought of that. Many thanx and keep up the good work.

[BirdieBlues]

During the transition, after you have rotated your left arm back, is the move from there to simple straighten your right arm? is the 3 right hands in reference to this move? thanks.

[GreyGriff]

Did you just start a website with Jack and Steve?

[gmonkey808]

How can you roll your left arm without moving your wrist/club face.

I just cant do this and it looks important.

[Goynes42]

It's a rotational movement from the shoulder joint. It can be done! If you don't do it, and instead leave that left elbow facing downward, you end up with a closed clubface at the top. This rotation allows you to keep the clubface sqaure through the swing.

[sevam1]

@Goynes42 That is correct!!!

[gmonkey808]

How the hell do you rotate your left arm without rotating your wrist / club face????

[gmonkey808]

I just dont get this.

I dont get how you can rotate the left arm without turnin your wrist/hand.

It looks a key part to the swing

[gmonkey808]

I dont know how you can rotate your arm without turning the wrist.

I just dont get this and ive a feeling its very important.

[juicyfruitzy]

why can't the camera guy stfu!

[sulakleo]

HITMANHAWKY... vid on grip and release best on the tube period,,,MUST SEE,,, skip to 2:15 to get to the good stuff...

[DASH1ful]

Left forearm rotation is an illusion created by the right shoulder joint rotation. No concious thought is required regarding left forearm rotation. The plane is created by the arc, which is created by levering the right arm back into a vertical position

[geraldgreupner]

I love this. It a little more eloquent way of saying "this dummy hits that dummy."

[mrflknight]

shouldnt left elbow always point down on backswing and forward?

[Zakaroony]

great video have been watching your lessons for 8 months. you have a great understanding of the golf swing.

[GangstaYST]

Sevam ive watched your videos i like the style of your swing, great ball striker and its clear to see youve spent many hours tinkering with things and no doubt like me lie in your bed at night trying to picture things in your mind, brilliant stuff. I'm also a great Hogan fan and find your views on certain aspects of his game interesting, although i remain convinced he meant the 'secret in the dirt' to be countless hours practicing THE CORRECT MOVEMENTS WHICH HE HAS LEFT FOR ALL TO C excellent

[GangstaYST]

This 'left arm roll' as it is referred to here is a VITAL part of consistent ball striking trust me ive experimented with this and ways to get into this position its all about getting that club pointing directly at your target, to do this you have to roll the left arm and once you integrate this its an extremely reliable way of getting in 'the slot'. Also people should note how in his book Hogan said how YOU HAVE TO DO IT WITH THE LEFT ARM this is what he was talking about. A KEY POINT.

[maxxsee]

I meant in your presentation technique, not the swing.. Moe was the greatest!

[maxxsee]

How far do you hit that broom ?

Nice to see no Moe Norman imitations this time =)

[SMesiti]

Hi Mike, Thank you for your videos. I enjoy them quite a bit, straight-forward information. Do you have any thoughts about Hogan's practice of keeping his RIGHT forearm vertical at the top of the backswing, as opposed to tilted slightly, elbow away from the body - does it add consistancy? Thanks.

[pinkintine]

You have a great understanding of the swing.

one of the best explanations I have ever seen / heard

regarding key swing points ...... thank you

[mustangmex]

Thank you for the great videos & explanations Mike--- huge improvement in my swing after 1 day.

[shavedhead78]

what do you do when you are not teaching the golf swing on youtube? very good videos by the way. i fell into this swing through experimentation on my own. it greatly simplifies the game. the average course i play is 7000 yards (not sure what that is in meters). i have never been a long hitter but now i pretty much hit 12/14 fairways and 14/18 greens. if i miss a green i am usually just short. anyways, as a teenager i logged in a few hundred hours in lessons and this by far is the best.

[danieldeeh]

your shoulder turn is what makes the left forearm roll. turn your soulders dummy dont just roll your forearms. Maintaning pressure with the chest and left arm makes that happen. this is jst a silly bandaid. a level sholder turn opens the club and a level hip turn closes the club.

[sevam1]

That is and intersting view on this. I think , however, that it is not correct. The shoulder turn simply does not motivate the left arm to roll and you also lost me at the word "level" with respect to the turn of both the hips and the shoulders.

[danieldeeh]

so your telling me you roll you left arm to add loft then you roll your left arm back to square. it sounds like your trying to time something that doesnt need to be timed. Try turning your shoulders and see if your left arm doesnt naturally roll. i bet you it does. i think your idea is good it gives people the feeling but i dont think its something you force. when you roll something open it means you have to roll something closed. The less moves you have the easier it is to get consistent.

[sevam1]

Actually I am trying to eliminate the need to time something. The roll of the left arm is what permits the arm to get straight onto the shoulder plane on the backswing. Most golfers loop up and then have to drop the right elbow into position with a lateral move that also puts the left arm into the position that I manually put it into on the backswing. What I am showing eliminates a move and takes the timing of that out of the equation. It allows me to swing straight into the hitting position.

[swooshjr]

The arm rotation trick will come. I struggled with it the first few times out. Now I can rotate it like sevam1 can in this video. It just happen, because I knew what I was trying to do. I am working on loading my left side(I am LH). I have a vision/feeling of screwing my left foot into the dirt.

[ggaawest]

You mention a number of good things, I'm agree, the left arm is very important to start straight, maintain straight and then rollover past the impact area

[BenHogansSwing]

Do you use the same swing thoughts/ideas for wedges. My ballstriking has improved a ton, but my wedge swing seems pretty flat now. For my wedges, I keep the elbows pointing toward the hips and do not rotate at all during the swing, rather than beginning to rotate the left elbow. On all other irons, I rotate.

[sevam1]

With the wedge(s) there is nothing wrong with what I would call "arming it". Some things you do for power. Some for control. An "armed" wedge shot is just a smaller version of what you are doing when you bomb it. When you "arm" a shot you can't help but come in a little steeper and in the process get more spin. Just remember that you are responsible for the blade angle on these shots. The swing alone will not square the blade. You are in charge! There is a time and a place for this shot.

[tigercatcheshair]

Is there any video of this guy where we can see repeated ball strikes and their resulting ball flight. Otherwise this is just some Kook with a broom in the wind. Lots of people claim to understand the golf swing - but if they themselves can't shoot consistent low scores then they have zero proof that their 'understanding' is valid. Besides, Furyk, Hogan, Moe Norman, LPGA all have radically different swings and they work. Furyk makes millions. These videos are b.s. Just have fun folks and play.

[davidleealford]

Your post is self contradictory. I agree teachers should be able to demonstrate, but then you go off the cliff. Sevam has excellent swings and can no doubt demonstrate, although I don't agree with everything he says. Nevertheless, his vids. are overall very good, some of the best out there.

[gmonkey808]

Just to let everyone know i sorted out sending the shots right. My right elbow wasnt tucked in enough. I keep my right elbow in now and that has sorted it out.

Im hitting up to a 4 iron scary good now. I still need to work on driver/3 wood/3 iron. I will watch your driver post Mike to see if its the same swing. I have totally changed from arm 'hitting' to swinging the club. Just got to sort drives out (that was previouslt my strong part of game).

[mrflknight]

talk less about bs and show more and put duct tape on camera man

[BenHogansSwing]

what happens if you don't roll the left arm to that position at all? what if the "elbows up" position is kept through the swing?

[sevam1]

I take it you are talking about the pockets of the elbows. If they stay up the hands head to the sky basically and the club will also. It won't move around you it will head up. Best I can say is to try it and see where that clubhead wants to go.

[1942model]

Mike it will not work unless the front of my two elbows are facing up? right ? then i can roll my left elbow? if i do not have my two arms very close together ... i can not roll my left arm/

Aprreciate a answer and your book was supper and keep up the good work. How do i get updates on my book that i purchased last month/

1942model

[sevam1]

The left elbow can be set pre-rotated somewhat at address and still have the elbows sufficiently close together. If you do this then you will find that the left wrist sets up cupped to some degree right at address. You will have to just see what works for you. You either have the pockets of the elbows facing the sky and rotate the arms on the bcakswing or you start with the left arm preset the way it should be at the top.

[sevam1]

You should have received an email with a link to download the revised book on around the 12th. If you did not get that send me an email and I will get one off to you.

[gmonkey808]

Also since i adopted your weight transfer thoughts and finishing weight. My short game has been scary acurate. My only issue is puting longer shots right and straight. I hope the arm rotate will solve this.

[gmonkey808]

This video is very important. The penny has now started to drop. I have changed many things but now i have started to rotate left arm and keep it straight it MAKES me feel like rotating my right foot clockwise into the ground on backswing. The two compliment each other. Its interesting that you say only other options is the loop and broken left arm backswing as i always broke my left arm. I put the pieces together slowly but surely on the range.

[aprilbluerose79]

you could have demonstrated that with a club too.

[jragonnet]

Thanks for your advice on pointing my right elbow downward. Again, your videos are excellent.

Accordingly, allow me to offer a modest suggestion consonant with my communications background: To further enhance your OUTSTANDING videos, ask your camera man NOT to interrupt you repeatedly. His questions and comments are often distracting, misleading and off-base. Simply put, oblige your camera man play a passive -- not an inter-active -- role in your videos.

my best... jlr

[jragonnet]

Thanks for you prompt reply and your invaluable and insightful video lessons. Truly!

Now that I understand the biomenchanics associated with pronation, can you help me resolve my key problem: How do I get my brain to make my body do two opposing things simultaneously: (1) move my upper left arm to the right and (2) my left wrist to the right? How did YOU master this? Is there a drill I can employ? I'm determined to learn this critical move! I marvel at how easily you do it. my best... jlr

[sevam1]

If you roll the arm from the shoulder on the way back and cup the wrist at the top you are basically into this position. I never practiced it, but after turning the arm from the shoulder to swing across my chest repeatedly I found that I could duplicate that condition in the arm and wrist at address. The ability just developed from hitting balls and having that happen dynamically I guess. I never worked at it. I am sure that it will be something that some do with ease. Others not so much.

[jragonnet]

Thanks...your last comment helps greatly. Pronating as I swing back is much easier.

Also, at address (1) keeping my forearms close-together and (2) pointing my elbows toward my hip sockets (as Hogan prescribed) helps me pronate properly.

Finally, is pronation and supination reserved ONLY for my left forearm -- or both forearms?

jlr

[sevam1]

Keep the right elbow pointing down. That arm will turn a bit on its own, but you do not want to be motivating that to happen. Keep that elbow pointed down.

[jragonnet]

Thanks for your excellent instructional videos. Please advise me how I can biomechanically rotate my left forearm AND keep the club face square. I'm mystified. jlr

[sevam1]

The arm can rotate from the shoulder joint and it can also at the wrist because the radius and ulna move over one another. This is what makes the wrist turn. To turn the arm without turning the wrist the upper arm rotates to the right at the shoulder and the wrist is rotated in the opposite direct vis a vis the radius and ulna. That is basically what is happening in that action.

[francoman714]

Why are you being such a jerk? Sevam never claimed he was Hogan,all hes doing is showing what he thinks is Hogans move, if you dont like it move on. And Sevam you have a great looking Hogan like swing.

[andysh1]

cont. I guess the point is that the 'Hogan move' is a COMPENSATION for a Hogan golf swing. Why would anyone want to learn a compensatory move to a swing that doesn't match their own?

[sevam1]

Well I suppose that those who have got it all down with another action can just ignore all of this. I used these compensatory moves to get to a couple strokes better than scratch a long time ago. If others don`t find it of use to them to know what these little moves are about then that is fine. I`m just putting the context of what I learned many years ago and what Moe told me out there for others to know also. Many people it seems have found these little videos quite helpful.

[francoman714]

Your ebook helped me out alot. I started playing 10 yrs ago at age 42, learned by reading the 5 lessons. Allways had a problem with the hips spinning out with an occasional block or hook, but i manage to play to a 7 hcp. It took me 2 rounds to get your technique down but the move stops my hips from spinning.

I only have 3 thoughts now, Screw my instep into the ground, rotate the left arm, and your move at the bottom. a nice tight fade down the middle is a beautiful thing.

[sevam1]

Glad that it helped. I think that it will help those people with a handle on Hogan's method most.

[andysh1]

You rotate your arm to counteract closing the club face with your right hand and starting the backswing with your right shoulder, the opposite to Hogan. Read the book and please stop putting the name Ben Hogan in the title of your videos.

[sevam1]

Read the book again - Orange = backswing plane

Black = Downswing plane

You also have pronation and supination backwards in your post below.

Second, one of the main points of this little segment is to point out the difference between the two paths, arcs or planes that Hogan describes in 5 Lessons. I don't think you know what you are talking about because the right shoulder has screw all to do with how I am taking the club back.

[andysh1]

You still don't get it? Your moves are the opposite to Hogans and you claim to make the Hogan move. His backswing was steeper than his downswing, yours is opposite. He stood tall, you stand a country mile away. He had the club in the fingers, you have it in the palm. His right hip never swayed, yours moves alot. His wrist was cupped at the top, yours is flat. His upper arm never leaves his chest, yours.... Hogan didn't have a secret, his two planes didn't match so he compensated very well.

[andysh1]

Hogan clearly describes that the backswing and downswing planes are different. If you look at his drawing in the book, at the point where the two planes touch each other is where he began to supinate. He supinated to get back onto the backswing plane (the black plane in the drawing). If he didn't he would hit the ball straight right ( on the orange plane in the drawing). This is also the reason why he opened the face in his backswing(it counteracts supination)

[whitepatch342]

just at of curiosity how far do you hit lets say a 5 iron...ive only skimmed through the videos but i think that you think its a slight combination of ideas to the secret...i have to agree with some of your points but i think too much emphasis is on the left elbow. Dont you feel the release happens naturally, assuming the body is in a good position?

[sevam1]

The release does happen naturally although I do some things that give it a little extra juice at the bottom and my hands are a little more active thanis usually recommended.

I use very old clubs. I was at Golftown to fit my old 1967 Hogan Percussions for new shafts. They put me on their machine and I was hitting that old 5i between 189 and 204. They handed me a newer Cleveland blade to try and that flew about 15 yards further than that. Difference would be in the loft and the shaft.

[remmarg1]

based on your explanation here, it is clear to me you don't know what a one plane swing is. the description bewteen a one or two plane swing has nothing to do with the swing plane or the club at all.

[sevam1]

Please inform me as to what it means.

[remmarg1]

a one plane swing is one where a golfer tries to swing his arms on the same or close to the same plane that their body turns on and a two plane swing is one where a player swings his arms on a different plane than the body turns on. nothing to with club. its arm relationship to pivot of the body.

[sevam1]

Well that used to be called the difference between upright and flat swings until Jim Hardy reclassified the elements of those two swings. My point is that in either case, the backswing arc and downswing arc are not the same and are tipped differently. The main reason for this is that the motion is motivated around one pivot point on the backswing by one muscle set and towards and the around another pivot point on the downswing by another muscle set. The arcs in each direction are not the same.

[remmarg1]

yea, no kidding. just be careful how you say things when you're dealing with such a large audience.

[andysh1]

It is the bowing of the left wrist prior to impact that controls the ammount of rotation of the forearm and club face. It can only be done with a neutral left grip and square club face set at address and kept intact to the top of the backswing. With the club wrapped around behind you like that and with a weak in the palm grip and the club set open at address, you are always going to have to over rotate to get the club back to the ball.

[sevam1]

OK You are correct there. The bowing is like a governor on the whole downswing preventing the over rotation of the hands and promoting a hands ahead position at impact. I turn the handle and introduce the bowing of the wrist at the bottom of what Hogan called the "free ride". It is a relatively simple move and it basically times itself. When you feel it trying to happen you just go with it.

[andysh1]

It is much easier to do with the club infront of your body and not behind it (with your body in the way). The club can simply drop into a parallel position with the target line with the toe up as you unwind your body and from this position the left wrist starts to bow. The bow also keeps the shaft and right forearm inline with the ball so that the power stored in the right wrist can now be delivered into the back of the ball correctly.

[andysh1]

Another problem with wrapping the club around like that is that you can't use the hips and legs for power. You would have to turn the shoulders and slide the hips in order to get the club back infront of you. If you used the hips correctly from the top of your swing your arms would crash straight into your right hip, so you slide them out of the way and unwind the shoulders on the wrong plane in an attempt to give your arms more time and space but it's too late so you over rotate the arms.

[sagolfer123]

Thank you for a really great golfing tip! I have been practising with a preset left arm position and I have been hitting some unbelievably good shots. Where I previously hit my 5 Iron 150 metres I know reach this distance with my 7 Iron. The only problem I know find is that I have to open my club face 20 to 25 degrees at address otherwise I hit some big hooks. Any comments?

[sevam1]

I would have to see your grip and setup in general to gie you any useful informatiuon in this regard.

[andysh1]

I think Hogan suggested that anyone who didn't understand what pronation was should look it up in a dictionary . It comes from the late latin word 'pronare' which means to bow.

[sevam1]

Actually pronare means "to turn face down".

The reason I put this up was so that people who had 5 Lessons wouldn't have to bother with the dictionary.

[andysh1]

Use your description of supination or pronation at the impact position not shoulder height as you demonstrate here and then tell everyone that your palm is face up or down.

[sevam1]

I am not sure what you are getting at. Pronation and supination are actions. Pronation of the left arm would have it turning basicallly from palm up to palm down. Pronation and supination moves can originate in the shoulder joint or in the forearm/wrist area as the radius and ulna movearoun d one another. Any rotation executed in that direction and to any degree would be a pronating action because it is moving the hand towards a prone position.

[sevam1]

My main point is just to make clear that bowing is related to but not the same a the supination move on the downswing.  It is something that is happening in conjunction with the supination move illustrated in 5 Lessons but the bowing of the wrist is called palmar flexion and simply is accompanied by the supination (an arm rotation motivated in a direction towards palm up). Cupping is technically dorsiflexion. This is something that people have always been confused about so I am clearing it up.

[andysh1]

How on earth can you turn your palm up or down by rotating your arm only with a neutral grip in the impact position? You can certainly open and close the palm that way but it will never look up or down unless you cup or bow the wrist. Do you have a neutral left hand grip as described in the book? LOOK at the illustrations in Hogans book , his left WRIST begins to SUPINATE at impact , not his arm or shoulder

[sevam1]

My left hand grip is neutral to weak. Thumb on top.

The wrist rotates or supinates because of an action of the radius and ulna. Those bones attach at the elbow and wrist and roll over top of one another. They must turn for supination and pronation to happen. Turning the upper arm in the shoulder joint can also cause a similar rotation of the wrist. Hogan's left wrist bows (goes through palmar flexion) while it supinates. That is what you are seing in the pictures. A compound action.

[andysh1]

Your an idiot

[sevam1]

Well, you must be right because only an idiot would spend more than a minute on your inane questions and I have. I'll leave your comments up so that the kinesiology students here can get a handle on how little you know.

[jduncanm3]

thanks for the entertaining and insightful videos. great swing too. question: when you say "all this talk about 1 and 2 places is baloney, are you referring to Jim Hardy's "Plane Truth" wherein he emphasizes Hogan's similar arm and shoulder planes at the top of his backswing? In general, what is your view of the relationship between arm and shoulder planes: do you think it matters if someone's arm plane is more upright than someone else's?

[sevam1]

I actually think alot about plane and think that Jim Hardy's ideas are great and valuable and I think that he is an exceptional teacher. That said, the concept confuses people and so I think that it should not be the core element of any method. Hogan himself with his sheet of glass was not talking very much about optimum plane, but simply illustrating where the danger is in getting above the glass. I don't think this was meant to spawn whole philosophies on the swing.

[sevam1]

Beyond that if you get the arms up an away from the body, then you are going to have to make a strong lateral move to drop things into position again. This is something that those that swing on or below the shoulder plane need not worry about. Harvey Penick's Magic move is less aggressive the lower hands are kept on the backswing.

[sevam1]

Hogan and Moe had very little wasted motion because of that, but neither could be truly called single plane swingers.Jim Hardy is totally correct that the mechanics are different for swings where the arms migrate north than swings that exist primarily on the shoulder plane or below on the backswing.

[jduncanm3]

So if someone came to you and they had an upright arm plane, would you look to have them flatten it? Also, do you give lessons, there's a promising young golfer in NF, NY area I'd like to set you up with.

[sevam1]

Not necessarily. I wold have to see what the ball was doing. I would also have to look at their relative strengths and weaknesses and the relationship between their body and equipment. In other words "if it ain't broke...." I would be interested in helping a young golfer.

[elvisload]

Just started the left arm roll...omg it was the one element I have been missing lo these many years. Here's another benefit you didn't mention but is so obvious to me... when you "set" the left arm roll at address... it automatically applies a huge amount of downward force to the left hand ham...ok?... it squeezes that ham onto the grip and really really stablizes your grip...

[Evafan133]

I noticed that when I started following this advice, when my left arm was paralell to the ground, my wrists were cocked into that perfect L possition.

[sevam1]

If you take care of the right elbow and proper movement of the left arm then the proper action of the wrists is simply a reaction to the mass of the clubhead. A good golf swing simplifies and reduces the number of things that you "make happen" and maximizes the incidence of things that you simply "let happen". Moe Norman said that "Let" was the most important word in golf. Of course he said a lot of things, but this is something that I have found to be true.

[thehbss]

Mike - I appreciate your thoughts.

I find when arm turns so does my hand. I can let elbow bow and get some turn. Is that what you mean - or does leftr hand turn inside the right hand a little?

[sevam1]

Well Im illustrating that the arm can roll from the shoulder independent of the hand and wrist. That does not mean that you do not turn the hands on the backswing. You do. It not you would be just chopping wood. In the golfswing the clubhead path is an ellipse on an angle. To create that the arms and hands have to turn to varying degrees. Just remember that where the left thumb points on the backswing is generally what determines where the club is going and the plane that you will be on.

[thehbss]

No way can I turn top half of arm at shoulder. Any pronation turns my hand.

However by pushing a cupping with the pad - and twisting the left hand a little inside the right - I create a turn of the arm which can now go across my body by about 2 inches, thus keeping the hands in front of the body.

Mike, would you kindly comment please?

[sevam1]

I see no problem with what you are doing. Let the ballflight be your judge. I sometimes do exactly what you are doing letting the left hand turn down a bit inside the right hand instead of preserving it as static or perfectly married. Interesting that you have found that little move.

[BenHogansSwing]

I've found that in addition to this, if the right arm rolls on the through-swing, it gets right on plane and into the follow through. Thoughts?

[sevam1]

I always want my right elbow facing the ground throughout the swing. On the followthrough I don't think about plane. During the swing I am thinking of getting through the golfball with both arms extended fully when the clubhead is about 1 to 2 feet past the ball. Where the club heads next I do not try to control. It goes where the clubhead inertia takes it. If the right arms rolls it will not be happening because I am trying to make it happen. Rather it will happen because I let it happen.

[garre71]

ok!

[garre71]

Through impact you push, pull and rotate.All three together you said. On the takeaway, do you reverse that and do you trigger that with a little forward press setting the wrist in a 45 degree angle?

[sevam1]

Everything moves together on the backswing. I do not trigger with a forward press. I just start to move mass right and my hands react forward to that. I do not set the angle. The mass of the swinging clubhead is what creates the hinging in the wrist. It is a reaction. I do not set it. Setting it would be the last thing that I would want to do.

[PRICKLE12]

gerenr - I might be off on this and Sevam1 can straighten me out but I think that the reason you can't roll your left arm may be because you already have it straight and there is no where to go. Look at Sevam1's Vison and Posture video when he takes Hogan's posture at 6:18 to 6:29. In that position ie. Hogan's arms position, the left arm can roll.

Mike am I right?

[canhititbetterthanu1]

maybe you should come to Texas and really experience some breeze...... especialy this weekend with Ike coming ashore!!! JF

[gerenr]

I clearly see your left arm roll in the video, but I'm damned if I can do it. Its like you have an extra joint in your wrist that I don't have! Are you preventing turning the club face by resisting and holding it square with the right hand??

Your series of swing videos is really wonderful and greatly appreciated. You really have deep insight into the golf swing. You should publish a book named Ben Hogan's lessons 6 to 10.

[golfnutz99]

how do you ensure that the wrists don't overrotate as well? I have a problem where I am to flat on the backswing because I am rolling the arms in the backswing...any suggestions?

[sevam1]

Watch the video I did called Hogan Waggle Cup and fade. You can cup the left wrist if you feel that you are over rotating. The other thing you can do is to be aware that the left thumb is on the plane. That is basically how you get on plane. Through the left shoulder and the left thumb. I wouldn't worry about overrotating the wrists just be aware of where that left thumb is pointing. The famous power hitter Mike Austin had a lot to say on this and he was unquestionably correct.

Sevam1

[mattrose79]

i don't understand how the early rotation of the left arm without a change in the clubface can help to hit a fade. my understanding was that Hogan wanted this move to effect the clubface considerably and really open it up on the backswing. if, as is suggested, the left forearm rotates without any change to the clubface then any movement of the left arm counter-clockwise on the downswing will shut the clubface will it not?

[dklein24]

lol "well the wind's blowing it a little bit"....no kidding. it's a BROOM!

[plentyofouts]

Ha ha. Fair enough.

[plentyofouts]

Do you think the left arm rotation is important for having the shallow downswing plane? I don't think i rotate it like that on the backswing and have a steep shaft plane(albeit pointing inside the ball line) coming down with my left arm too much 'on' my chest instead of that space you see on well planed swings.Been working with my coach on ways to get that arm 'out' coming down.Could lack of rotation be the reason?

[sevam1]

I wouldn't waste my time or anybody else's talking about something that I didn't think was important.

[plentyofouts]

Why don't you play tournaments Mike (assuming you don't?) How's your short game!!?

Really like your instruction by the way.

[sevam1]

Quit gof in 99 to pursue other interests. My short game was never great when I played a lot. Never putted great. Didn't paymuch attention to that stuff. I play about 5 times a year now and for some reason I seem to be able to putt. Chipping pitching and all of the other finicky finesse parts I am very rusty at right now I would imagine. I am hitting it very good, but I have to say not to many arrows in the short game quiver right now after so many years without practicing.

[aglendine99]

great videos, I just have one question, you talked about how you felt the hogan action when you did the looping action that Trevino did, and in this video you can get the pronation with the looping action. If this move can do so many good things why doesn't everyone swing with the Trevino loop.

[sevam1]

I am sorry that I did not answer this question. I have answered so many and just missed this one. The answer is that many many many great golfers rely on such a loop. Just look at Fred Couples or in the more extreme Jim Furyk and you are seeing the same type of loop that Trevino used.