Howard Dean on the FairTax proposal

[1969was1969]

By Americans for Fair Taxation's own research and admissions, the "Fair" Tax would raise the average federal taxes paid by those in the $15,000 to $150,000 income range and lower the taxes of those who make more than $150,000. They then try to claim those people will still be better off, by "income mobility"-- however, that mobility is by them falling into the <$15,000 income range-- not something most would call "better off".

It is a very, very bad idea that fortunately will never be enacted.

[1969was1969]

Hopefully by now the video poster DavidFL10 has come to realize just how BHI fudges the data in the research to claim that the middleclasses are "gainers". To anyone who does not know, go to the research at tinyurl 593htl, page 30 on, and pay careful attention to Table 13 years 7-8 and 15-16. Hint: they claim the middleclasses ($15k to $150k) will be "gainers" by "income mobility", however, they have them "gain" by falling into poverty every few years.

[FairTaxisaLie]

From BHI/fairtax:"Households in the lowest income band,with an adj. gross income (AGI) of less than $10,000 annually, would benefit because they would receive the prebate that would more than offset any higher cost of purchasing goods. Households in the top income cat.,with more than $150,000 in annual income, would also gain as they do not have to pay their highest marginal tax rates. Mid-income cat. households would lose because the FairTax would impose a relatively higher tax rate on them.

[FairTaxisaLie]

The "Fair" Tax aka national Sales Tax- Inclusive aka NASTI would on average raise the federal taxes of those making from $15k-$150k a year while lowering the fed taxes of those making over $150k a year. This is not debateable, it is from supporters' own site and "research".

How do they claim the middle classes will still be better off, then? By asserting that if one's income drops from $35k to $10k a year, one is better off. Does any sensible person think that way? tinyurl 593htl, table 13.

[KenMacMillan]

It doesn't matter what kind of tax they give us, they will find a way to game the system into their advantage. Eventually they will decide to tax one item at a higher rate than another & before you know it it's 70% for gas like in England. The best thing to do is to remove all federal taxes completely & assign them a flat percentage paid by each state per quarter. Also, with state taxes we'd get taxed twice on everything we buy.

[flmcon]

I will pay for the book if Dean would read it, What is increadably complicated is the POWER that politician have because of our tax code, That is what the Democrats are against! Saddly Many Prpublicans too.

[FairtaxFraud]

Fairtax is goofy crap - so goofy it'sown leaders are hiding like the slime dogs they are.

They know their own plan is nonsense -- they know they wont ever tax rent, or cancer care, nor will they tax the militiary and every city and state.

They pretend to get all kinds of money by insane nonsense. It can't happen. And they don't intend to try -- it's just a BS farce, they are not trying to pass it.

[laudanum4u]

Only to you Mark. Sometimes the lone voice of reason really is. the other 99.9% of the time it's just some guy off his meds.

Ch 10 question 6 FairTax: the truth explains the government paying self argument. medical costs drop about 5%. Even after the FairTax. so there goes you cancer victim card. The prebate covers rent, gas, and utilities taxes with a bunch to spare. And yes me and all the other FT leaders (You can't seem to name) are pushing for hearings. Now start cursing some more. It helps

[12FlyMe]

The government already does what? Pay itself trillions of dollars?

Yes dumb fuck -- its called a bail out.

But you can't do that every fucking year you fucking idiot. Fairtax has a hidden huge tax on the government -- the government would pay itself over 1 trillion a year in taxes. Just because gov employees pay taxes, doesnt mean shit dumb fuck.

Why the FUCK do you think FT hid this shit? Cause thy know its pure fucking bullshit.

[FairtaxFraud]

So why don't one of you Fairtax fans, call up a few mayors.

Or call up Arnold in CA. Ask him if CA can pay 100 billion or more in sales tax on their spending.

You see, Fairtax is hiding this shit in the fine print. Not one mayor or governor knows.

Fairtx is pure fucking bullshit - and they know it. They avoid hearings under oath, they sure as fuck don't want cities and states to know their plan fine print is for massive taxes on cities and states

Google Fairtax absurdity

[FairtaxFraud]

How is it dishonest for cities and states to pay this tax?

Its not dishonest dumb fuck -- its impossible. Cities and states you dumb fuck won't go for it. DO you fucking think California is going to pay 100 billion in sales tax on its spending?

NO dumb fuck -- they won't.

And this is even more dishonest -- Fairtax isn't fucking telling them. You got that dumb fuck? Fairtax is hiding this massive tax on cities and states in the fine print. Not one city or state knows this shit.

[BritBoyProductions]

Did anything ever come from this? I'd be interested!

We still only have the one Dem co-sponsor :(

[FairtaxFraud]

Fairtax is dishonest nonsense. It only get's half its money from people.

The rest comes from pretend tax on government.

Fairtax fine print says cities and states have to pay this tax on most of their spending.

CA would have to send over 100 billion to the federal government as taxes.

That's how Fairtax math "works" Every city, every state would pay huge taxes.

Fairtax hid this. Why not tell cities and states about it?

Google Fairtax + absurdity. My web site comes up first.

[ajpmathwiz]

How is it dishonest for cities and states to pay taxes on purchases, especially when city and state employees currently pay taxes on their wages?

[12FlyMe]

Four reasons its dishonest

1) The government just writing itself a check to pay itself is pure FUCKING bullshit. If that worked, we wouldnt need to tax fucking people AT ALL.

2) Refer to number 1

3) Fairtax is hiding this massive tax on cities and states for a REASON -- the reason is, its bullshit -- what do you THINK would happen if you passed it, THEN told cities and states they owe all these fucking taxes.

4) Fairtax leaders know its pure fucking farce, they don't dare pass it

[ajpmathwiz]

1. The government already does that. Or do you think government workers don't owe payroll taxes?

2. SWEARING IS NOT AN ARGUMENT!

[scenesonn]

@12FlyMe Don't mean to come off rude, but you do not strengthen your argument by referring to a previous point as you did. (I was sincerely interested in that "4th" point you had.)

Cities and states do not pay taxes necessarily. People who purchase goods beyond basic needs do. Many wonder, "well gee, couldn't that potentially reduce the insidious amounts of income our government receives?" Absolutely. Not that excessive government spending is a problem or anything ; )

[12FlyMe]

@scenesonn are you nuts? Fairtax BOOKS say every city, every state, every county pays a tax on every dime it spends. Got that? I don't say it -- they do.

That, you dumb ass, is how the FUCK they get their "math" to work. Go fucking read their book you dumb fuck.

And this is exactly why Fairtax has hid from all hearings under oath for 13 years. They have NO intention of passing their own insane plan. Fuck -- they don't even want hearings about it. It's a farce -- its pure BS

[scenesonn]

@12FlyMe Cursing is not helping your argument, I promise.

Ahh yes, "on every dime it spends". Whereas you said it taxes cities and states with no explanation of that vague statement.

I'm not sure where you are getting these arbitrary figures from, cite your sources? And your "quotes"? Even if it isn't revenue neutral, I don't really have a problem with that. Government needs to be minimized and spend less money, they don't need to use nearly as much money as they do today.

[12FlyMe]

@scenesonn -- the FAIRTAX books government have to pay the tax . Go talk to them why thy didnt explain it. Im just showing the bullshit.

Go read page 148 of the Fairtax book "The federal government ITSELF will become a major taxpayer: On pages 132-144, in Fairtax Answer book, Boortz says cities and states will pay it too. There dumb fuck -- I gave you the pages.

Of course its bullshit -- they dare NOT pass their own plan. Hell, they wont even have hearings under oath!

[scenesonn]

@12FlyMe I will definitely being researching it more. For future reference, you need to learn how to make an argument without swearing, because you sound like an idiot.

Cheers

[12FlyMe]

@scenesonn Research it -- great. Compare reality to their bogus insane shit promises.

Read the wall street journal about it. Read those who have exposed their farce. It's not even a real tax plan.

Oh -- any discussion of Fairtax SHOULD use extreme language, but it's a bunch of shit. It's not a real tax plan, it's leaders know its BS and are not trying to pass it.

I will send you some places to "research it"

[12FlyMe]

@scenesonn also dumb ass -- Fairtax has this whole bullshit about being "revenue neutral" meaning it will bring in as much as the present system.

No -- it won't fucking come CLOSE. Because just to replace the income tax alone -- the national sales tax would have to 35%. To replace all the fed taxes, it would have to pay 60-90%.

Those figures can from real math -- not some fucking pretend to tax the government shit.

[DavidFL10]

You are equating wealth with reported income. They are very diffent things. If a person makes ten million dollars in a year, and lives on twenty thousand so that he can grow his business, why do you want to punish him for that decision?

I am more inclined to want to tax the person who makes nearly nothing, but spends a fortune of family money or the person whose income is mostly cash and goes unreported on his tax forms.

[DavidFL10]

Disk, the comment section here is very limiting for a discussion. To send me an email, my name is DavidN, the server is TampaBayFairTax and we are a non profit org.

[DavidFL10]

Disk,

You are ill-informed if you think the Beacon Hill Institute is some shill organization that is willing to "spin" the data to promote the FairTax.

They are a highly respected independent collection of economists. They conclude that 91% of Americans will be better off under the FairTax, and the ones who are worse off lose around 1% of utility.

You cherry picked one paragraph that seems to say otherwise and ignored the intro that said this calculation ignores class migration.

[12FlyMe]

@DavidFL10 wrong idiot -- they got paid moron.  They dont do shit unless paid.

They are lunatics and liars. Fairtax is a crock of shit -- its own leaders know it.

[12FlyMe]

@DavidFL10 You dumb fuck -- if you think you can tax the government to get most of the money for government -- well dumb fuck - Fairtax is for you.

But too bad Fairtax leaders know their own "plan" is pure bullshit. They are not trying to pass their OWN plan. No corporation is for it -- what does that tell ya?

They have avoided hearing s under oath for 13 years- whats that tell ya?

IT tells me FT is bullshit. Because it is.

[12FlyMe]

@DavidFL10 wrong idiot, they didnt conclude anything at all. They were paid to hawk this shit. Their math is goofy and laughable.

Mostly, they don't believe their own shit. They do not support this unlesss Fairtax sends them money. And even then, they don't really support it.

The only REAL research done on National sales tax to replace all others -- show the actual tax rate would be 60-90%.

[DavidFL10]

By the way, Paris Hilton spends FAR more than she makes, and what she does make is either tax free interest on municipal bonds or taxed at the 15% capital gains rate. Nor are there payroll taxes witheld from Ms. Hilton's income.

[DavidFL10]

Furthermore, this study assumed complete honesty in filing under the current law. We all know that the more a person makes, the more chance there is to hide some of that income. There are more people in America who spend more than they claim to make than actually make a lot more than they spend.

When advocating for the income tax, Teddy Roosevelt warned that "the least desirable of all taxes is the tax which bears heavily upon the honest as compared with the dishonest man."

[DavidFL10]

The results are reported on the last line of Table 14 and show that 91 percent of households will be better off over their lifetimes as a result of the FairTax. Even the losers would not lose by much; of the 10,000 cases, the biggest loser would see his or her utility fall by just 1.1 percent.

Moreover, households in all income classes, on average, experience an increase in lifetime utility under the FairTax when compared to the benchmark.

[DavidFL10]

After that paragraph:

The conclusions reported in Tables 9 and 11 are correct only if every household remains in the same income bracket throughout its life, which is of course not the case. In practice, there is considerable income mobility. For example, Gottschalk and Danziger show that just 57.9 percent of those in the middle fifth of the income distribution were still there in 1992, while 21 percent of these people had moved up at least one quintile and 21 percent had moved down.

[Diskatop]

From BHI/fairtaxorg:"Households in the lowest income band, with an (AGI) of less than $10,000 annually, would benefit because they would receive the prebate that would more than offset any higher cost of purchasing goods.Households in the top income category, with more than $150,000 in annual income, would also gain as they do not have to pay their highest marginal tax rates. Mid-income category households would lose because the Fair Tax would impose a relatively higher tax rate on them."

[Diskatop]

That quote, from SUPPORTERS of the tax (BHI at fairtaxord) sums up relatively succinctly who the winners and losers would be:

the poorest 20% or so would have a pittance more, the middle classes would have a large average effective tax increase (10-100%), and the wealthy would have a huge tax cut (up to 50% or more).

Thus, under FT/NST, the average carpenter pays a higher %age of his income in taxes while Paris Hilton gets a tax cut.

What polparty would be for that?

"Fair" Tax = FAIL

[DavidFL10]

The introduction to that paragraph you quoted:

Let's assume that a household that belongs to a given income category in 2007 will remain in the same category over the next 24 years. Were we to make that unrealistic assumption, five out of seven household groups would gain under the FairTax ... After about 20 years of FairTax implementation, all households benefit as their utilities by then would be higher relative to those under the current law.

[DavidFL10]

Wow,

Why so many personal attacks? Why are you so angry?

The irony is that my question to Chairman Dean is "why is it so hard to even begin the dialog with my fellow Democrats?".

Former Senator and presidential candidate Mike Gravel has a book coming out in the next couple months called Citizen Power. I've read an advance copy of the FairTax chapter and suggest you look for it when it comes out.

[DavidFL10]

I am neither insane nor a moron. Please refrain from personal attacks.

I agree that it appears to be a calculation anomaly for the fed to pay tax to itself. Are you aware of the billions of dollars in the current system that are the same? When i was in the military, 7.5% of my pay was paid by the federal government to itself as a payroll contribution.

[DavidFL10]

It is a bookkeeping issue that needs more attention before implementation of the FairTax, but it in no way represents a reason that the FairTax is a bad "idea".

Do you agree that it is the patient who pays the doctor's income tax under today's system? Do you agree it is the patient who pays the corporate tax on the profits the hospital makes?

[jbennettatty]

I applaud you for getting to Howard Dean and confronting him about the FairTax question. Your questions were well forumulated. Dean appeared to be dodging by making a briefing from the FairTax team conditional upon receipt of further information first. That is a standard evasion technique. Clearly Dean could use his time efficiently by receiving a FairTax briefing team. Unfortunately, there is much in the FairTax that should appeal to him and his party.

[gaelons]

Thank you for posting this! I hope Dean will take a look at FairTax. I am shocked that more Democrats are not for it than Republicans since the Government will start sending out prebate checks to everyone in the nation!

[HarvBand]

Sounds like a monthly administrative nightmare. Also an invitation to widespread fraud. It'll be a LONG time before politicians take something like this seriously. After reading the bill...I wouldn't want it.

[urgener]

I's been going on for ten years, and will take more time. All good things are worth waiting for, just like breaking free of Great Brittain, getting woman the vote, and tearing down the Berlin wall. We need to get the Fairtax by voting out politicians, or by constitutional convention, whatever it takes. God help us if we don't get the FairTax, and the current system continues to drag down the US economy.

[sardonical1]

Howard Dean has to be one of the worst candidates for the presidency in US history. That guy isn't smart and he is really a weird guy! What a wacko guy! Anyone who votes for him is a late-drinking-New-York-Times reading socialist who drives a Volvo.

[DavidFL10]

You do understand that Howard Dean is the chairman of the Democratic National Committee and isn't running for president, right?

[Roxas42]

True, but he ran for President four years ago and lost in the Primaries.