FCS: Quick Kill APS

[Buuub08]

@Newmans1337 You can fit it in there alright, but the amount of capacitors needed would by far exceed the weight the plane can actually lift.

In any case lasers on a plane are completely useless. The idea was to have them fly over enemy territory to shoot down missiles at launch. Now who is going to tell you when and from where he is going to launch and let that big cow freely fly over it? Whoever had the idea is smoking crack.

[PzAz04Maus]

@Buuub08

1) usually, launch vehicles usually have some very interesting and very big launch signatures for the missiles an airforce laser boat would be interested in.

2) You've never heard of Wild Weasels, I take it.

[Buuub08]

@PzAz04Maus Its unrealistic. An ICBM would reach the target long before you even fuel up your 747. For the airborne laser to work it has to be above the launch area at the time of the launch. You cant predict the launch area and time, let alone expect no one to shoot down a big ass jet flying over enemy territory.

I know what wild weasels are, but you are obviously unaware that they are relatively easy to counter. Might work against Zimbabwe but not against Russia for instance.

[Shack11]

Oi, I'm guessing they have an alternative Soft Killer for open battles(Infantry out)

[reefstiz]

I don't see the incoming rocket. Sweet though.

[TheEEStudent]

I'd rather have trophy anytime.. this APS needs way too much maneuvers which take it precious time.

[cr9527]

@TheEEStudent

In theory, this could work to protect a larger area than the Trophy. i.e. several tanks sharing the same APS

[wun1gee]

There's another video on youtube showing the difference in collateral damage between Trophy and QK. QK leaves lots of small pieces opposite the blast (Which would be deflected by the vehicle in a real-life scenario). Trophy leaves huge chunks of the missile over the entire firing grounds..

[bztheman]

1) can hurt/kill friendlies in its blast radius (counter-productive)

2) the charge it fires is way too expensive to use against masses of dirty cheap RPGs

lasers are the future, IMO

[ppitm]

The U.S. has been using $50000 javelin missiles on lightly-armed infantry half a mile away, lol.

[wun1gee]

If that expensive charge can save a $5-$10 million dollar vehicle from extensive damage, then what's the problem?

Quick Kill is designed to minimize collateral damage outside the flight path of the missile. It may not be the safest way, but it's going to save the crew inside that vehicle, and whatever passengers may be inside it.

[bztheman]

@wun1gee Touche on the cost.

1.Collateral damage is still BS. Consider this: convoy under ambush-> troops disembark and take cover around vehicle -> RPG shot at vehicle -> uh-oh

2.if hatch is open, gunner dies

3.rockets are big. need safe space inside vehicle, which is packed full as it is.

Trophy > this IMHO.

[wun1gee]

Trophy deals even more collateral damage, as well as large chunks of the projectile flying around.

It is technologically impossible to vaporize the missile and not create any side effects at all. This system creates the least collateral damage while giving the vehicle, it's occupants best chance of survival..

If a Stryker gets hit, I guarantee the collateral damage would be a LOT worse the a few small shards of metal over a small area. And a lot more people are going to get hurt.

[wun1gee]

Also, there's the fact that Trophy doesn't offer 360* protection. This system, and IronFist, do.

[bztheman]

@wun1gee

Well...Trophy disables the rocket with flak, while this blows it up with another rocket. I don't see how Trophy can cause more collateral, or even the same.

The technology to "vaporize" it isn't here...but soon they could have laser systems that burn a part of the rocket in flight (kind of how Trophy does it but without firing a dangerous projectile) :)

[EduEnYT]

@bztheman you're right, but I don't think theres gonna be a laser powerful enough to vaporize a rocket on a split second and small enough to fit on a tank in the near future.

The guys inside the tank are fubar =P

[simontempleman]

what about CBC's? no one is saying we can do away with PBT systems, but the fact JRSS's are being used WITHOUT active alignment protocols is laughable.

[JustAnotherPerson520]

correct me if i wrong but isn't this explosion is bigger than the Trophy 1 which mean more Dangerous for the troopers around?

[zeronyne09aaa]

it seems to detonate a long way before actually hitting the RPG. don't know if that's intentional

[TwinSkies]

@zeronyne09aaa

The system uses a shaped charge warhead to knock out the incoming missile, so I'm assuming it detonates ahead of the target to allow room for the explosive jet to form.

[JustAnotherPerson520]

its look like its only working in Hard Kill Mode

Doesnt it has a Soft kill mode (jammins the missile)?

[Roflzmahwoflz]

Haha. Modern warfare is such bullshit.

[leparc2008]

So did the US copy this from the Russian Arena system?

[TurbineDogSevenFour]

Arena is nowhere near as high-tech-complicated. Arena just basically punts a claymore mine on a chain, which when over the incoming missle, detonates, swatting the missle down with fragments. The downside, is that the individual blocks cover only their sector. Too many uses can leave one side bare. This Raytheon thingy can use any interceptor against incoming at any angle.

[saledin1]

Ok, now that's a problem for us......

[thomaswilson014]

Its still 25 years behind the reds lol

[F4Wildcat]

With decent development, the balance of victory would switch back to the tanks, and this time for a long time..

[tacgirl2000]

Outsdanding. I spent my entire adult life working on programs like this (5yrs eg at SAIC) and am proud that many of the things I worked on saved good guys lives recently. I'll have to read more about this. It only makes sense that lots of places and customers I worked with are trying like crazy to develop defenses against the the IED type which is doing the most damage to us!

[tommytmt]

When it's finally fielded, this will be by far the most advanced active protection system on earth...

[tjpld]

Wow imagine all the calculations that have to be done to calculate how longe the interceptor missle has to fire it's engine just to get the right angle to attack the incoming threat. All in less than 10ms.

[mramz88]

im in the army military inteligence 525th battallion and these are still used on certain tanks and transporters when transporting high value prisoners or informants. ive never seen it in action cus iraq is pretty calm right now aside from the occasional ied

[osalcido85]

Why can't something like this be used as anti-SAM defense on a fighter jet?

[bullmeecham]

How do you know it isn't? Some things are never revealed. If you're a Vet, you know it's true.

[osalcido85]

Well it'd be kinda silly to reveal it on Tanks and HumVees and not on Jet fighters. Afterall, it's not like anti-missile defense on planes is something new (chaff, flares, etc.) and if someone was building it it'd be in the Defense budget somewhere.

[byronicusmagnus]

an open hole for the missile could reduced a jet fighters aerodynamics and drastically reduce its radar cross section

[osalcido85]

I have to call BS on this! The only Aircraft an "open hole" could significantly impact would be an ultra-stealthy aircraft like the F-117 or F-22. The VAST majority of our Jet fighters are NOT of this type, though. We still have F-15s and F-16s in our Aircraft inventory that have External hardpoints and would not be affected.

Furthermore, an open hole is not necessary from what I can see. a Breakaway cover could be used

[byronicusmagnus]

good points. however, the f-15 is being gradually phased out of service and the f-22 is being used more. the f-16also has a replacement coming its way in the form of the stealth capable f-35. and you mentioned a breakaway cover. i was talking about the open hole in the aircraft after the system was used and the breakaway cover broke away. however, on an aircraft like the b-52, this system could probably be very useful, where a small hole, radar cross section, and heavy system wouldnt matter.

[migkiller001]

The F-22 and F-35 both use retractable covers for their gatling weapons. When the gun is fired, the cover opens and when it ceases fire it closes. The plain then reitans it's stealth profile. Something like this could be used. But it is unpractical to place expensive countermeasure units on stealth aircraft as there are currently very few radars that can spot such planes. And once they turn themselves on, they light themselves up. Easy targets. A helicopter would utilize this system better.

[Allieisatastyflavor]

yes, but then it might depend on the helicopter. an attack or light transport helicopter would be to light and small for this sort of system. a medium sized chopper may also be too light. even our largest helicopters may not be suitable because of the size and weight of the system, unless they make it lighter and less space consuming. even then a slow, unarmored helicopter and its rotor and blades could be so fragile that a nearby explosion could be as bad as a direct hit.

[migkiller001]

The video you see here is simply a test of the missile itself. The system is actually very small. Small choppers would not be able to support it, as you stated, due to the few hundred pounds in added weight. A nearby explosion would not do a chopper any good, and that is why a different system would have to be utilized. This project is in it's beginning stages, give it a chance to develop. Just be gald that there is such a thing to protect the brave men and women in the field.

[mramz88]

maybe very small choppers wouldnt but transports like the chinook and attach choppers such as the apache or supercobra will utilize these. ppl often confuse the US made "quick kill" system with the heavier and more power draining "iron first" or "trophy" tank defense system used by the israelis or russians

[migkiller001]

Yep. It seems like you know your shit when it comes to the military! From what I heard, this system is extremely lightweight and goes easy on the juice intake. Iron Fist and Trophy are older and less advanced, people need to realize that Quick Kill is going to be as state of the art as it gets, and it will be a valuable asset for everyone using it on the battlefield!

[mramz88]

the f35 also has a solid state laser for SAM and air to air missile defense

[mehonrahman]

It might. It all depends on how we go on Laser research.

[Academy2012SL]

First of all, I doubt an RPG gunner would be able to fire enough decoys to deplete the system before being neutralized. Secondly, if an RPG is fired at a tank, there is going to be shrapnel posing a danger to dismounted infantry regardless. the only difference is the location of the blast, and a slightly larger explosion. Im sure the ammunition used in the system is designed to create as little harmful shrapnel as possible.

[inricheetos]

How about really cheap robots instead of gunners?

[THISNAMEOWNS]

trophy > quick kill

think about it, if an infantry unit fires special rounds that mimic a rocket's speed for several times all the missiles would be depleted....leaving the vehicle (which would not use the cage armor) very vulnerable to RPG attacks

[byronicusmagnus]

that exact same idea could be used against trophy

[THISNAMEOWNS]

one would think that more pellets of shotgun slug would be stored in the same amount of space than fucking missiles...besides, ur paying for it =\

in case u didnt know, each missile cost more than 10k...at least

[byronicusmagnus]

true, but an explosion in the air could destabilize KE rounds in the air and render them less harmful to the vehicle and crew. something that the shot pellets of the trophy system can't do. and each trophy shot round isnt a 12 gauge buckshot, we're talking something the size of soda bottle at least, and these are small missiles. but yes, each missile definitely costs far more than one trophy round.

[jgtheman84]

@THISNAMEOWNS yeah, there is always something to counter every offensive/defensive weapons system.

[hustler539]

wicked fast

[wlohsen]

it would suck to be a dismounted troop/infantry when this thing deployed...

[blowmeliberal]

That ... is ... fucking amazing.

[truboricua]

u idiots trying to "figure out" this system don't even kno how insurgents operate. It ain't Call of Duty or some other video game where dozens of RPGs are constantly flying around. Insurgents usually shoot once, maybe twice and then run away b/c their objective is to hit and move not stay there and receive fire, especially if they're attacking an armored convoy that can dish out alot of heavy fire.

[pikechris1]

nope... this is military tech evolution observed in motion...

[Breakerchase]

But can it stop large caliber gun rounds?

[TygrysBengalski]

Anything with explosives inside yes, but it could only cause sabot rounds to rotate a bit and not hit head on with the tip, but rather at an angle striking with a larger surface and therefore their energy can get absorbed by a larger amount of armor. It will weaken the Sabot rounds' killing ability, but I have no idea how much.

[ColonelMarksman]

How exactly does this work? All I see, after several replays, is just the "RPG" exploding in mid-air like it were on pre-detonation. When I watch the Israeli TROPHY in action, I can physically see what's going on.

[TygrysBengalski]

That canister with thrusters and a rocket engine thingy explodes and detonates the RPG with it so there's one big fireball.

The TROPHY uses kinetic energy, rather than chemical (explosive) to knock out projectiles.

[WatchRyder]

I prefer trophy...

[hbkfitz]

iron fist it can take out ke rounds

[capnjonas]

Accompanying infantry will need MUCH more armor to survive all the shrapnel.

It's a good reason for soldiers to say inside their Bradley & Stryker vehicles, at least until they get all the RPG gunners in the area.

[hbkfitz]

yo it would identify a bird as non lethal it can classify targets by shape and speed so a bird wouldnt have a problem

[Vlaudeimirz]

I would fell sorry if a bird would fly over the tank using this APS.

[Tangiepoon]

i wouldnt. itd be a fast and painless death. funny too.

[wowthungsten]

So, you're saying that all I need to do to defeat this is to have a flock of birds move over it before deploying my own missile and take the base out.

So noted.

Or, send out some birds, confuse the radar, then send in the missile.

I'm learning fast here...

[phdecora]

damn you, the terrorists might read this and figure it out! they might as well rename it al-qaedatube.

[wlohsen]

systems like this typically discriminate targets by velocity and only fire if the velocity is btw 70 and 700 m/s (way faster than a bird). That way it isn't wasted on miskicked soccer balls(to slow) or 7.62mm bullets(to fast)

[inricheetos]

What if you fire dud missles at it just to make it waste the anti-missle missles?

[capnjonas]

That is indeed a very valid strategy, ICBMs typically carry decoys to overwhelm BMD systems. Perhaps a multishot RPG, consisting of Decoys & 1 real warhead might be developed. However, any RPG gunner at that range will likely be killed before he can fire again.

Actually, the US had a 4 shot launcher that you can see 'The Ah-nold' use in Commando.

[dmcfarli]

@capnjonas

RPG rockets are pretty cheap. You would just salvo fire a bunch of them from different positions. However, APS has 360degrees of cover and can ripple fire mutiple interceptors. Also, the system could probably infer the attackers' position(s) and launch interceptors at the attacker. Every active defensive system also had offensive capabilities.

[capnjonas]

What I was saying was it is suicide for infantry to dismount their vehicles when these systems are active.

A better alternative would be a soft kill type. One that disables the RPG fuze on impact. That way, NO explosions happen near friendlies.

[dmcfarli]

Would it be better for them to be dismounted when the RPG impacts a vehicle not equipped with an APS?

Is the concern for dismounted infantry overpressures from the interceptor or fragments from the interceptor + RPG?

[capnjonas]

Oops, when I responded, I thought you had responded to another of my posts.

But the interceptor + RPG fragments in a narrow alley would be nasty to our guys. Besides I've heard of regular Bradley's taking RPG hits w/out the troop compartment getting flamed, not that the guys weren't freaked out though.

[dmcfarli]

I guess it depends on the velocity and composition of the fragments. If the US developed ballistic shields that covered the face I suspect the body armor carried by armored infantry would be sufficient to withstand most fragments.

I'm just concerned that passive defenses will no longer suffice against evolving AT threats so APS is really the way to go even though there are some legitimate concerns about dismounted infantry.

[byronicusmagnus]

16 dud missiles would still be incredibly expensive and logistically impossible. you would to fire 16 duds plus one live missile at each vehicles you came across. any enemy that the US would come across couldnt afford to pay for that or divert that many resources in a single battle to this problem.

[mramz88]

u do realize that 2 trillion dollars are being spent for the global war on terror? and the figure will soon climb to 4-5 trillion in the next decade. trust me, money is not an issue

[marmaladekamikaze]

What advantages does this system have over E.R.A/ explosive reactive armor?

[Vlaudeimirz]

The ERA armor is good for small anti tank grenades, rps, missiles and rockets. However with the developement of a more accurate and powerful anti tank weapons like the Hellfire and Javelin, the ERA armor is not enough to counter it. This type of APS defense will eleminate or decrease the killing power of an advance or traditional anti tanks weapons significantly. However, I do believe that the APS is not fast enough to couter a kenetic penetrator, not yet.

[phdecora]

you dont have explosives bolted to the outside of your tank

[marmaladekamikaze]

yeah true but this system is probably more expensive and infantry around the tank would still have a bad day.

[cotes42]

I cant really tell where the projectile is i can really only see the active defense projectile. and i cant really tell what the target is. i guess i'd have to watch it a few times to see it clearly.

[FoltynD]

incoming projectile is clearly visible in bottom middle part of the screen, target is square plate bit under center of screen

as said before i find this system to be usable only on open fields w/o close support infantry

[cotes42]

Thanks for pointing that out to me, I really appreciate a response for once from a Youtube user that's not condescending and rude. Thanks for being nice.

[Oso1G]

It's the real deal folks.

[hpfuhl]

The issue with this system isn't weight its explosive force. The weapon causes a dual explosion which if detonated to close could cause an hmmwv to flip, hence injuring or killing two soldiers anyways. Second it is a focused warhead, not a shotgun blast as trophy is, trophy fires a shrapnel blast that destroys targets; defeats the purpose if you kill friendlies or non coms anyways. Finally the weapon is mountable on every vehicle except for hmmwv.

[StrikerX228]

If it's powerful enough to knock over a humvee, I have to wonder about how safe it will be to nearby infantry and such.

Also, it's got a shady development. Being similar, I wonder how Iron Fist is in comparison now... it seems complete.

[anothersacrifice]

I doubt they'll actually be using them on HMMWV's since they're planning on replacing them anyway.

[Vlaudeimirz]

The humvees will still be used but the MRAPs (Mine-resistant ambush protection) vehicles will be for hostile zone. It'll take several years to fully build enough MRAPs for the whole US forces to use. The humvees will be used for low risks zones and on base.

[opfor0723]

also Look into the eyes of a man dying from an RPG blast as i have and tell him "well It was just too expensive and frankly wasn't worth it it's just not cost effective"

[phdecora]

also tell him "'we didnt learn the lessons of vietnam, and in 50 years we wont have learned the lessons of iraq, because, history is 'boring' and a 'fluff subject'"

[opfor0723]

Well in response to hellspader there is no cost in my mind worth as much soldiers life and anyone who has ever been to combat or had any kind of enlightened perspective would never say that it isn't worth a humvee and by the way 1 MRAP with a crew of 10 Servicemen all 10 dead from an RPG equals 4 Million dollars in life insurance plus 10 Military funerals plus 2.5 Million traumatic injury life insurance pay out plus the time, training and experience lost with those soldiers you do the math

[gomakemeasandwich]

The issue with this system (Quick Kill) is weight, and that is why it can't be mounted on smaller vehicles, but I agree with your point completely, and that is why it's particularly offensive that the US Army won't even consider several Israeli systems that work today (as opposed to 2011 at the earliest with this system) and can be mounted on smaller vehicles because they weren't made by a US defense contractor.

[Rokasomee]

That's freaking holy.

[hellspaddler]

can anyone verify the weight ranges this system will be put on? as far as i know the radar used is wicked expensive and wouldn't be worth the cost of putting on an hmmwv... or jltv or mrap or anything other than a mbt...

[gomakemeasandwich]

From what I've read, it's too heavy for anything but a Main Battle Tank.

[Khaosreign82a1]

that's wrong, it would be mounted on most of the US Army's Stryker Brigade. along with its slat armor, the boomerang anti sniper system, there's sufficient defense against RPGs, etc.

they're not mounting them on HMMWV's anyway

To counter the nearby infantry problem, wouldn't they be in the armored vehicle to start with?

[Cwayne28]

that's really fast, but it is being designed for the Army's Future Combat System, so troops are going to have to wait for a long time.

[SrustinLim]

Gotta get these and make American soldiers invincible.

Frigin end this damn war.

[phdecora]

if every soldier was invincible it still wouldnt end the 'damn war'. please read some history books

[Jetman123]

That's completely incredible - it soft-launches, rotates to intercept and then flings itself towards the RPG before it can do anything?

[intrepidrock123]

yep, its systems like these that keep tanks in service otherwise anti-tank missiles would render tanks obsolete

[phdecora]

yup. thats why you fire two rpgs at once.

[Beliserius1]

im sure the blast from the counter missile can take out two...

[phdecora]

wanna bet your life on it?

[Beliserius1]

if they are in close proximity to each other, then yes.

[jklv]

Well it works ;)

[midgetman2142]

it may be expensive, but it can cover 360° and defend top attacks!

[Dvich]

Looks expansive.

Trophy and Iron Fist for the win!