I think you're both right, Andisakli and Aliza. When Bapak gave guidance to the helpers, it was not unlike a consultant doctor issuing guidelines to his helpers, the registrar doctors. 3 month probation is something helpers will often stick to because they don't feel qualified to make a call, but Bapak, like a consultant doctor, made a call and frequently opened people immediately. We don't "open" people you know. I received the latihan, at home, on my own having never been a "probationer".
Nothing else matters but the growth of our inner capacities. Our capacities grow when we use the latihan in our every day life. This is so clarifying! Thanks for posting Leonard!
I had a similar view of things, that people were very interested in spreading Subud. But, then they wouldn't show up to latihan, or would show late, or leave early. Or, helpers weren't interested in testing. They were so interested in increasing membership, but I felt, what would you do with the people? They would all leave, because you aren't ready for them. And that's exactly what happened.
it sounds like you are on your way.Keep talking with your friend and I dont even know you and yet i feel connected. The latihan is wider than the widest width and deeper than the deepest depth ,
Thankyou for your help, i spoke to my friend about it last night and she said the same thing to me to. Im so glad that I've found my friend at this moment in my life and glad she has introduced me to subud, especially at a time where I feel I need some guidance and help most of all. Its strange how someone who as soon as last week would have considered himself non-spiritual has found something I feel I could turn to that is such a polar opposite to what I would have previously thought. Thanks x
Hi folks, pleased to meet you all. Ive recently gotten to make a very close friend, who is an active subud member. I told her of things on my mind and suggested Subud may be a good thing for me. I have had a good read and came on youtube to see if i could learn any more. I have always held firm beliefs and am not what one may class as religious in any way shape or form. (continued below)...
...I started watching this video and was watching with an open mind, as soon as the question was asked about how to help subud grow,I immediately thought to myself, does it really matter wether it grows or not and surely it should be about each individual and their own experiences within subud, so i was more than pleasantly surprised to see that, that in fact was the answer the gentleman gave, it sort of hit me like a eurika moment i guess... (continued below)
The only thing that is some what of a stumbeling block for me is my lack of belief in god. I would not want to go to a subud group and seem disrespectfull. Does anybody have any advice at all? thankyou x (oops just realised my message is now upside down... silly me) hope it worked out ok though
If you had a bad experience with some person, that probably has less to do with subud itself or the latihan itself than it has to do with that person. Subud helpers are still human beings, and human beings often have a lot of mental garbage going on that they don't handle properly.
But Subud is about receiving guidance from a power beyond yourself, and also within, and following that guidance, to become a more whole human being. So I hope you won't get discouraged by one bad experience.
@jalal75 - I am sorry that you had a bad experience with Subud. Subud is not supposed to be about the mind or the heart but the soul. I can see how a bad experience can put you off trying it again, but there are thousands of members around the world who regularly participate.
If you go outside for the first time and it is cold and raining then maybe you may not want to go outside ever again, but if you make that choice you would be missing a lot of what our world has to offer.
I have thought about the 3 month waiting period a lot and I think that if someone is truly interested then the 3 months is irrelevant and if not then it does not matter how easy you make it they will come a couple of times and then drop out. I feel it is more important to ensure that the prospective members have a great experience during the 3 months.
Funny though that it was originally a "when appropriate but no longer than 3 month" concept that has become an obligatory 3 month period. I think this distinction belies an endemic fear of growth and even of the latihan within the culture of Subud helpers.
Now there we have the primary problem with Subud. A hierarchical culture has emerged in which ordinary members are marginalised and disenfranchised from the organisation and the spiritual practice. Helpers, by contrast, form the majority of those in latihan, and are fully invested in the organisation in a way not possible for non helpers.
Hello Lucas, I am surprised you think this. I don't see organisation as heirarchy, and my impression is rather that it is often difficult to get people to take on organisational and helper roles. There's plenty to do for anyone willing, and we take our turn at working for Subud when time and energy is available. Anyone with the capacity to be a helper can be. I think if you are putting time and energy into an organisation, it is good to have a specific named role. We are all perfectly equal.
Hi MyJuliar, Why surprised? Do you know me from when I was a chair or helper? The organisation IS a hierarchy, with a Royal figure at the top, unelected and unwanted by me. It is hard to get people to take on committee roles, because they are considered lower in status to that of helper, and in reality, they are often thankless and occasionally pointless roles. It is, however, not hard to get people to become helpers - there are absolutely gazillions of them.
I also think there's scant too little for anyone to do. Regional committees, for example, are pointless to the point of incredulity. "We are all perfectly equal" is just balderdash. This title "helper" is ego serving, meaningless hubris, and is the main hindrance to the growth of Subud, as Bapak well knew - Sharif has told me as much! We should be a real brother/sister-hood and put aside such distinctions and titles. It's just exclusion/ exclusivity, where helpers help themselves first.
The primary reform that I believe would evolve Subud would be to form a culture in which all members were of equal status and equally participatory. Everybody would be encouraged to play their part, according to their capacity and desire, in the responsibilities now undertaken by the helpers. If we don't see this, protestant factions will continue to emerge from Subud as the years go by, and I for one will join and encourage them.
If could be that easy...don't scapegoat the 3-month waiting period, it is Not going to help people notice and be interested in Subud! Why Subud has not grown is that we do not have fruits for the world to see: Hospitals, schools, old people's homes, etc. that Bapak talked about through which people would see us: the way we are with one another -our harmony, respect and love for one another- and what we bring to the world for the world to see and be touched with that Subud will grow! Aliza
HI SHARIF FROM SUBANDI THE WONDERS OF TEKNOLAGY1 ALLHAMDILLILAHHH!!!
gdmacbandi 1 year ago
I think you're both right, Andisakli and Aliza. When Bapak gave guidance to the helpers, it was not unlike a consultant doctor issuing guidelines to his helpers, the registrar doctors. 3 month probation is something helpers will often stick to because they don't feel qualified to make a call, but Bapak, like a consultant doctor, made a call and frequently opened people immediately. We don't "open" people you know. I received the latihan, at home, on my own having never been a "probationer".
LucasAdamson 2 years ago
Nothing else matters but the growth of our inner capacities. Our capacities grow when we use the latihan in our every day life. This is so clarifying! Thanks for posting Leonard!
matthewcooke42 2 years ago
I had a similar view of things, that people were very interested in spreading Subud. But, then they wouldn't show up to latihan, or would show late, or leave early. Or, helpers weren't interested in testing. They were so interested in increasing membership, but I felt, what would you do with the people? They would all leave, because you aren't ready for them. And that's exactly what happened.
TheGiantRobot 2 years ago
That was such a very nice explanation - thanks Sharif!
MyJuliar 2 years ago
it sounds like you are on your way.Keep talking with your friend and I dont even know you and yet i feel connected. The latihan is wider than the widest width and deeper than the deepest depth ,
there is room enough for everyone.
all the best,
westernportbay 2 years ago
subud is for all mankind, believers and nonbelievers alike. So you have no stumbling block
westernportbay 2 years ago
Thankyou for your help, i spoke to my friend about it last night and she said the same thing to me to. Im so glad that I've found my friend at this moment in my life and glad she has introduced me to subud, especially at a time where I feel I need some guidance and help most of all. Its strange how someone who as soon as last week would have considered himself non-spiritual has found something I feel I could turn to that is such a polar opposite to what I would have previously thought. Thanks x
rkp12588 2 years ago
Hi folks, pleased to meet you all. Ive recently gotten to make a very close friend, who is an active subud member. I told her of things on my mind and suggested Subud may be a good thing for me. I have had a good read and came on youtube to see if i could learn any more. I have always held firm beliefs and am not what one may class as religious in any way shape or form. (continued below)...
rkp12588 2 years ago
...I started watching this video and was watching with an open mind, as soon as the question was asked about how to help subud grow,I immediately thought to myself, does it really matter wether it grows or not and surely it should be about each individual and their own experiences within subud, so i was more than pleasantly surprised to see that, that in fact was the answer the gentleman gave, it sort of hit me like a eurika moment i guess... (continued below)
rkp12588 2 years ago
The only thing that is some what of a stumbeling block for me is my lack of belief in god. I would not want to go to a subud group and seem disrespectfull. Does anybody have any advice at all? thankyou x (oops just realised my message is now upside down... silly me) hope it worked out ok though
rkp12588 2 years ago
Comment removed
westernportbay 2 years ago
If you had a bad experience with some person, that probably has less to do with subud itself or the latihan itself than it has to do with that person. Subud helpers are still human beings, and human beings often have a lot of mental garbage going on that they don't handle properly.
But Subud is about receiving guidance from a power beyond yourself, and also within, and following that guidance, to become a more whole human being. So I hope you won't get discouraged by one bad experience.
benedictify 2 years ago
Thanks for this great video. Things like this encourage me to get out into the world with my talents.
LPC1200 3 years ago
@jalal75 - I am sorry that you had a bad experience with Subud. Subud is not supposed to be about the mind or the heart but the soul. I can see how a bad experience can put you off trying it again, but there are thousands of members around the world who regularly participate.
If you go outside for the first time and it is cold and raining then maybe you may not want to go outside ever again, but if you make that choice you would be missing a lot of what our world has to offer.
lhorthy 3 years ago
I have thought about the 3 month waiting period a lot and I think that if someone is truly interested then the 3 months is irrelevant and if not then it does not matter how easy you make it they will come a couple of times and then drop out. I feel it is more important to ensure that the prospective members have a great experience during the 3 months.
lhorthy 3 years ago
Yes... I also saw your video about the growth of Subud. thank you for sharing, makes a lot of sense...Aliza
Alizaalbornoz 3 years ago
Hi Sharif,
Funny though that it was originally a "when appropriate but no longer than 3 month" concept that has become an obligatory 3 month period. I think this distinction belies an endemic fear of growth and even of the latihan within the culture of Subud helpers.
LucasAdamson 2 years ago
Now there we have the primary problem with Subud. A hierarchical culture has emerged in which ordinary members are marginalised and disenfranchised from the organisation and the spiritual practice. Helpers, by contrast, form the majority of those in latihan, and are fully invested in the organisation in a way not possible for non helpers.
LucasAdamson 2 years ago
Hello Lucas, I am surprised you think this. I don't see organisation as heirarchy, and my impression is rather that it is often difficult to get people to take on organisational and helper roles. There's plenty to do for anyone willing, and we take our turn at working for Subud when time and energy is available. Anyone with the capacity to be a helper can be. I think if you are putting time and energy into an organisation, it is good to have a specific named role. We are all perfectly equal.
MyJuliar 2 years ago
Hi MyJuliar, Why surprised? Do you know me from when I was a chair or helper? The organisation IS a hierarchy, with a Royal figure at the top, unelected and unwanted by me. It is hard to get people to take on committee roles, because they are considered lower in status to that of helper, and in reality, they are often thankless and occasionally pointless roles. It is, however, not hard to get people to become helpers - there are absolutely gazillions of them.
LucasAdamson 2 years ago
I also think there's scant too little for anyone to do. Regional committees, for example, are pointless to the point of incredulity. "We are all perfectly equal" is just balderdash. This title "helper" is ego serving, meaningless hubris, and is the main hindrance to the growth of Subud, as Bapak well knew - Sharif has told me as much! We should be a real brother/sister-hood and put aside such distinctions and titles. It's just exclusion/ exclusivity, where helpers help themselves first.
LucasAdamson 2 years ago
The primary reform that I believe would evolve Subud would be to form a culture in which all members were of equal status and equally participatory. Everybody would be encouraged to play their part, according to their capacity and desire, in the responsibilities now undertaken by the helpers. If we don't see this, protestant factions will continue to emerge from Subud as the years go by, and I for one will join and encourage them.
LucasAdamson 2 years ago
I think one of the reason why Subud is not growing is the 3 month waiting period.
andisakli 3 years ago
If could be that easy...don't scapegoat the 3-month waiting period, it is Not going to help people notice and be interested in Subud! Why Subud has not grown is that we do not have fruits for the world to see: Hospitals, schools, old people's homes, etc. that Bapak talked about through which people would see us: the way we are with one another -our harmony, respect and love for one another- and what we bring to the world for the world to see and be touched with that Subud will grow! Aliza
Alizaalbornoz 3 years ago