why are theists afraid of the term "I don't know". I'm an atheist, and I have NO idea where we came from, how it happened or why it happened, or even if there is a why, it could have been purely by chance that we all evolved here. But just because I don't know, doesn't mean it had to be god, that would be an error of corralation and causation. I have no real issue with people formulating the hypothisys of a god, just the statement that it's fact.
Atheism is NOT a belief, it is the absence of belief, and a trust in observable evidence. In any scientific organization, it is not up to the non-believer to prove the belief, it's up to the believer. I deny the existance for "God" but I do not deny the possibility of a "Creator", but this creator would be completely natural, not supernatural, which means we have the ability to understand this creators power.
@chiaromontestephen Faith means that you have a belief in something even though that something cant yet be seen. Atheist are totally convinced of what they belief in even though they are not sure that what they belief in is a 100 percent accurate. You see. Faith.
@123454321qcat Faith means that you have a belief in something even though that something cant yet be seen. Atheist are totally convinced of what they belief in even though they are not sure that what they belief in is a 100 percent accurate. You see. Faith.
@rikkyricardoo exactly dude exactly, Science take turns and they have more faith in such things. They refuse to study the subject of religion and they say they know science. What if the basic definition of science? Gaining knowledge on the basis of scientific method... They do that to religion? LOL NOT
@flexpape you are wrong, in fact, generally when I'm arguing with a theist I usually have a better understanding of their faith than they do. I have read the bible, the koran and many works from other theistic beliefs.
@CrackersL you sir i don't think so that you have read Qur'an. Reading pitches of it from an anti islamic site lol..... Guess what cool thing u did there. There are lot of things that you can't scientifically prove but they are reality like Emotions. Math , Logic. What proof of God? We have Torah, Psalms, Gospel and Qur'an and you are saying that you don't have enough proof? Dude, try to watch arrival series.
I think that we should accept eachother and our beliefs,whether they be Theistic or Atheistic,and judge on the individual person, rather than a whole group. Of course I'm not saying that won't also lead to problems(Example: Hatred for someone elses personality/mentality) , but it would also fix many problems we already have(Example: Religious conflicts ON A LARGE scale) . I'm also not saying that day will come soon(or ever), but it would be interesting to see.
Every human has faith , they just deposit it in different things. Most atheist have more faith than a christian , i mean, to believe something came out nothing , wow.
@rikkyricardoo i will say it for about the millionth time. atheists do not i repeat DO NOT have faith. atheism is a lack of belief in god. you theists continuely make these ridiculous claims like "atheists have faith just like christians" or "everybody has faith in something". about your statement saying "i mean, to believe something came out of nothing, wow." simply shows your ignorance and lack of knowledge of science.
what I find fascinating whenever I witness religious people floundering in the face of science and reason is to ask what is the catalyst which drives them to close their eyes in such a way? I'm sure a study of this would nearly always reveal that it is a feeling of betraying "mummy" or "daddy" should they even consider that religion is (obviously) bullshit. To even question faith is to actually betray their parents/school teacher/cosy foundations.
space is huuuuuge and the chances are that somewhere in it there is going to be life even though the chances of it being in one particular place is very unlikely e.g it is like winning the lotto , you probably won't win but it is probable that somebody will win. Also atheist generally agree with everything science has to say . Just because parts of science are not yet properly understood does not mean that it is evidence of god.
Am I the only one who notes that he says firstly that Atheists believe that the world was always in existence(and totally skips the big bounce theory) and that it was formed 15 BILLION years ago?...closer to 13 TRILLION....
@TheTriangulation I've never heard the 13 trillion figure. Usually one hears 13.7 billion years (and a few years ago it was thought to be around 15 billion years).
First piece of evidence is Not evidence, it is a play on words, Number two? No, still no evidence... three then...no... surely four, NO, come on it must be five... WTF you complete wast of time WLC you said you had evidence and you lied.
Has dr craig ever wondered why the people best able to evaluate his scientific arguments for god (members of the royal society, national academy, etc) are over 90% atheist? Science cannot prove/disprove god but it does make the holy books look silly. No objective study into religion has ever shown any religion to be more/less true than any other and even within each religion there are disagreements. In the absence of evidence the default position is atheism.
“The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.” (Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11: Written during the Administration of George Washington and signed into law by John Adams.)
Why Every Thing Has an opposite .. is the proof behind god , the devil , ... or what science dubs " the membrains " ...
( and on a side note if you can under stand 11th dimensional Math and how we Proved it exist )and if you know a little quantum physics (( you would see ))
Both atheist and theist positions share a belief,and are therefore flawed.Choosing a side is fine,but arguing is pointless.A truly wise person would admit they could be wrong.....sadly,most of us 'know' we're right.
@noblepuker That's not the point. Saying "See, I was right." isn't the point of the debate. The point is to help people challenge their beliefs and either strengthen them or drop them. Atheism isn't a belief, it's the position one takes when they're not convinced there are any gods. Sometimes that position is met with a "yet". I'm curious what you mean by we share a belief.
@clipsryan my comment is poorly worded.Both stubborn sides 'know' they're right,when neither could.(there are exceptions,of course) I'm all about logic,but don't dismiss a creator.I love debate and sharing thoughts.I'm very curious why some think what they do,and occasionally learn from it.These are the most fascinating,deep questions in existence.I have a friend who actually asked me "why do you care how universe started,or where we originated" I told him to stop speaking to me.
@noblepuker One side thinks they're right and the other side actually cares if they're right. This creator is nothing but your ego unless you can prove he/she/it exists and the universe coming into existence is no more important than the details of this universe at this point. If this creator is nothing more than the being that started the big bang, how do you tell the difference between "him", other gods or the universe itself?
@clipsryan Logic is my god,and science my bible.I am NOT a convert,i just no longer call myself an atheist.Yes,there's a mountain of evidence that supports a series of logical events leading back 14 billion years to a sinularity.This object was either 'made',or is part of a process,but u can't follow it back forever.Eventually you'll reach a point where even the hardened atheist will scratch his head.Unless you believe in infinity,or the 'allways existed' theory which are incredibly illogical.
@noblepuker It's honesty that allows you to scratch your head. That's the process of learning other than the process of putting a god in every gap we haven't filled with scientific understanding yet. I applaud those that admit when science eleminates their previous beliefs.
He needs to learn what "singularity" means. Coming from the singularity is very different than coming from nothing. Very, very different. And he lost me when he started saying "if the cause is impersonal, the universe must be eternal". No logical leap got him there; he just assumed it for no reason other than to prove his own theistic point. Also, why does he assume eternal means unchanging? If I exist forever, why can't I also change?
Kalam only works until the "anthropomorphic principle".
@KrfNYC2 I can agree with you. This is why I became agnostic. " I know that I know nothing". The person in this video clearly hasn't received that message.
I didn't watch the whole video or even read the comments. I love to debate and question things but I must say that I'm growing so weary of this argument. I'm becoming content to simply rid my mind of this discussion and , when night comes, go to sleep.
One question. How do you get something out of nothing? This is basic science! So to all atheist, prove why the world is today the way it is. Since you all belive that from chaos you get harmony, check the logic.
@teslic100 "How do you get something out of nothing?"
Well if you're a theist you think God spoke everything into existence from nothing.
From a scientific view the universe is deterministic. So you can't get something from nothing. You were obviously tricked to think the big bang theory had something to do with my lack of belief in your cults claims.
Science in regards to the big bang never says that everything came from nothing nor does it support Craigs apocalyptic world view
@MrDoobious It's called faith. And God reveals that he is true all around us through his general and special revelation. only a fool would not be able to see this.
@MrDoobious He has revealed himself to you. He has revealed himself to the world through nature, people and everything else. Many people have unfortunately failed to see Him through revelation and His word. He doesn't show himself physically, because his glory is to much. When did he "knock on my door"? at a young age, thankfully, I realized that Christ needed to be the center of my life.
*Side Questinon* what do you think happens yo people when they die?
@18dvine - If he revealed himself in his human form and allowed us to take pictures, take hair samples, and other DNA samples, then I would believe he exists. Why doesn't he show himself physically? It would make his existence much more believable if he was tangible. That which isn't tangible can not be tested. That which can not be tested can not be proven. That which can not be proven is just a mere guess.
@Critic863 I appreciate the thought. As far as question on why he doesn't reveal himself physically is because his magnificence is to great. this is where having faith in His word comes into play. In the Bible, the reason he doens't reveal himself physically or as something tangible is cause if we saw Him, his glory would be too much for us to handle. There are many examples in the Bible where this happens; like Moses and the burning bush. God's glory was too great he couldn't even look at him.
@18dvine - Well if he loves his children, that means he doesn't want to send us to hell. If he doesn't want to send us to hell, the best solution would be for him to reveal himself, which would convert all non-believers, saving them from eternal torture.
I'm confused, Jesus is God's son? I have heard countless times that they are the same person. I have not seen a bit of consistency on this issue.
@Critic863 In the end, all will see Him and every knee will bow and know He is God. He does love all of us, but the Bible says in Romans 3:23 that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Because of sin, many reject Him, even though he has shown unconditional love for us. But there is hope, Jesus Christ. God can't reveal himself physically, cause humans would die at the sight of Him, which is why he reveals Himself in Nature and His word.
@Critic863 Why does He even bother waiting for what? For people to die to realize that God was who He said He was? If that is the question, I'll say again that God has revealed Himself. Everyone has the opportunity to hear about God. It comes down to a matter of faith in Jesus Christ, who, took on the wrath of God for our sins so that we can be free in Him. But for those who shove it aside and reject God, His judgement comes in. Man's purpose is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever.
@18dvine - Yes. He has his plan all worked out and he already knows who is going to heaven and hell. Why is he waiting? Why not just either reward or punish everyone right now?
@Critic863 And that is a question that a lot of people wonder about. Even I, a Christian, wonder why he doesn't end it all now. He could, if He wanted to. And the answer to why he doesn't right now is simply because of His will. God's timing is absolutely unknowable to us. I know I keep saying this, but it is so true that it all comes down to faith in Him. The time will come, but in the meantime, we are to do his will of which he has revealed to us, which is to bring glory to Him.
@18dvine - Faith is not a good enough reason for me to believe in anything supernatural. Faith is a primitive state of common sense, but in this day in age, we have scientifically progressed beyond what numerous people in the past had thought to be impossible. I trust that much more than faith.
@Critic863 And honestly, I can't convert you. You just have to believe it, and only God can do that. I'm just trying to make you think. Let me ask you some questions though. First, what do you think happens to people when they die?
@LesPaul2006 I tried sending this earlier twice, but idk if it got through cause it's not showing my comment, but just in case, i'll ask again. How do you know this to be true?
@Critic863 It is up to us to believe in Him. In all honesty, this is hard topic to discuss (on why he doesn't just save everyone). the short answer, though, is that God has not designed the course of history so that all people will be saved. If God so desires, He certainly has the ability to cause everyone to be saved. It is not His will. God can desire all to be saved, but He must also execute righteous judgement on them, and all who have not trusted in Christ will be lost.
@Critic863 To sum up the Trinity, God is three persons, The father, son, and Holy Spirit. Each person is God, the father is God, the Son is God, and the HS is God. But the Father isn't the son, the son isn't the HS, the H.S. isn't the son, and vice versa. Picture a triangle, three ponts each being the father, son, and HS. each side of the triangle is pointing to each person of the trinity that says "not". In the center, it says "God" and arrows point to God from each person that says, "is".
@Critic863 However, he did, of course, send Jesus, His son, as a man. The trinity is a hard thing to grasp, but in essence, the three parts of God are the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus was the *closest* that humans have ever seen God in a physical form.
One, if there is a G-d and he gave a book, what do you want him to do? Update it every century? You're pretty much saying that there is no G-d because the bible was given too long ago.
Secondly, someone finding a book 2000 years ago is in no way the same thing as passing down a book from generation to generation since 3 mil Jews saw G-d.
@moons160 If god updated it, he'd clearly admit that he made a mistake and wasn't god. It's no secret why a book written by ignorant people, would contain their specific ignorance. It's the same case for other theists and their collection of myths.
God supposedly gave Moses the power to part the red sea but sense there's no proof of it even happening, who cares?
That's why G-d doesn't update it, b/c it is a guide for ever.
And u still dn't understand the stupidity of wat ur saying. Basically "There is no G-d b/c the world is too old".
And what ignorances are u referring to?
What proof do you want? What proof could there be of a parting sea?
By the way, google it and ull find physicists who say that it was possible given the right conditions for land to be exposed at the documented spot, and chariots found today in red sea.
@moons160 I don't follow any theories. Also, by your statement that a theory isn't proof, you clearly don't know what a theory is. To answer your question, I think it's pointless to care how the universe came into existence but sense time and space don't exist outside of it, a god creating it, is not only irrelevant, but a huge claim of no merit. What does this have to do with the red sea?
Not much to do with the Red Sea, just wondering how you think the world came into being.
I think it's stupid and ignorant to not care how the universe came into being b/c you, who claim to use reason, refuse to think about the origin of your existence.
Back to the Red Sea, I'd say finding chariots is pretty convincing. More convincing is that 3 million Jews saw G-d and told their children and their children's children from generation to generation until today.
@moons160 Yet you still refuse to explain how you think it came into being, and why.
The origin of my existence is through evolution. That's something we actually know about. It's ignorant to think something exists without having to prove it but it's not ignorant to not care how the universecame into being.
Millions of followers (Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist ect) claiming they saw something they can't prove (like your chariots prove the red sea was parted) is worth nothing.
The fact the sages approximated the stars in the universe to be so close to the scientifical approximation today (when at that time people thought there were only hundrers, instead of 10^24).
The fact that the bible says there is more water outside the earth than inside.
The Jewish prophet who described the world as round (when it was thought to be flat) - (srry forgot which 1 it was i'll look it up, but i believe he used the word "Igul" "circular")
@moons160 You still haven't explained how you think the universe came into being and why. Sages making a prediction doesn't prove the entire religion is correct.
Well, no shit there is. It says a woman was created from a rib. How does that counter their biological error?
Saying round doesn't imply a ball when god supposedly saw all of the earth from above. It would've had to be flat for that.
There are particles that go In and out of existence = in science books.
Why? There are a lot of given explanations but i will not list them. I will simply say, if G-d was transparent he wouldn't be much of a G-d. I mean to say that u can find many reasons, but I personally feel we can never fully comprehend G-d. I feel he made the world so we could do good and recognize the good he has given..
@moons160 That's quite a vague and extreme statement. Nice going in avoiding evidence for that claim. How do you know it was god, your god and not Allah or Vishnu?
"Why? There are a lot of given explanations but i will not list them." You just destroyed any credibility you might've had. If you can't comprehend something you think exists, you can't claim it does.
It says "corners" and looking down on the entire planet, would imply it's flat. Even people after Christ thought it was flat.
Obviously there's no irrefutable evidence I can present or we wouldn't be having this discussion.
I know my G-d is the true 1 b/c of my studies and logic. To give you an example, it mentions 24 times in the bible G-d will never change the Torah and also says G-d will not leave to Jewish people. Christianity and Islam claim G-d came to 1 man and told of a new path. While 3 mil Jews saw G-d, were supposed to change our religion b/c 1 man said G-d spoke to him? And if we dnt, (cont)
How the fuck is that evidence for your god over hundreds of others? Not to mention how not all Jews nor believers of christ believe the same. Multiple gods and multiple interpretations of gods means that man apply their beliefs to their gods and not the other way around.
I'm not arguing with you about Christianity, b/c clearly I don't believe in it. The fact that they have over 30,000 denominations that believe each other denomination will go to hell is a very obvious proof that Christianity is "fake."
And while there are differ interpretations for specific items in Torah, not all are correct, and ppl who dn't follow the Torah correctly don't receive the same rewards. For ex, I believe Jewish orthodoxy is the correct path, but conserv/reform (cont)
...dont go to hell. They simply aren't doing some things right due to people in history who decided to change (reform) something.
And the evidence in very clear to me in both a textual, logical, and spiritual sense (and on a personal level many things I've learnt and seen), but I doubt I can present a single piece of evidence to u that'll completely sway your opinion.
Their punishment may be something in this life or the next. I can't tell you b/c, obviously, I'm not G-d.
"Spirituality doesn't have anything to do with logic." Right, but it's one of the things that make me connected to G-d.
A lack of faith in myself, perhaps?
I'm pretty young and I have a lot to learn, and belief in G-d, for most people, comes from not just 1 "piece of evidence," but frm a combination of experiences/studies/spirituality.
@moons160 Obviously your god doesn't know either or you aren't able to communicate with "him".
Or connected to your ego.
Perhaps.
Experiences aren't evidence and again, spirituality doesn't provide anything more than faith does. You are young and it's a good a time as any to get rid of these childish fantasies but aslong as you don't allow these long lasting lies to make you manipulate laws I'm happy.
"Obv your god doesn't know either" Um, what? I don't know everything that G-d knows. And yes, I don't hear G-ds voice, I'm not on that level unfortunately.
Right, b/c I like to preach how im amazing and all others will go to hell (not Jewish concept). Experiences can be evidence to the person himself/herself, prob not to others (spirituality is part of that). And you left out studies..
That's b/c I'm not christian; I'm Jewish. We don't seek conversions.
@moons160 So how do you know anything that god knows? If you take it from a certain religion, that religion has to speak for it's god's knowledge and to be honest, if your religion only contains the knowledge of the people at the time, your god is either a terrible teacher, or not god.
You're Jewish because you think that's the right path. It's passive but it's still insulting. Again, experiences are irrelevant unless they can be made into fact. What studies?
That's what separates Judaism from other religions. First off, you can eliminate any religions that haven't survived (Egyptian gods didn't do them much good...) and if you want to look at two biggest there's Islam and christianity. Judaism doesn't believe in hell. Islam/Christianity say 1 man came and said to follow new path when it says in the Torah it will never change and also 3 mil Jews and not 1 person saw G-d. More than that, they say if we dnt listen to this 1 person; hell!
@moons160 So because they're still here, that makes them correct? That's rediculous because it took the older religions a while to die out thanks to science and the 3 major religions are responsible for most of the continued violence, murder and child abuse we have today and they're starting to lose members aswell. Islam and christianity have a past covered in blood and moderates think they can just change what their religion did and still does to innocent people.
@moons160 Judaism isn't the last remaining religion and many people still believe in those older religions. Your religion's time will come they the ones before it.
No, it exposes the hypocrisy of your special pleading for YOUR religion.
"many people still believe in those older religions"
Such as? How many ppl worship the Egyptian gods? I
And i know it's not the last remaining religion, but it has endured and survived like no other: expulsion in Canhage, forced conversion Italy (224 C.E), expulsion Jerusalem (325 CE), burning Torah Persia 351, synagogue burning Milan 379, expulsion alexandria, FC minorca, holocaust iphahan 469 CE, SB Antioch daphne and ravenna, expulsion France 554 Ce-561ce, FC Merovingia (cont)
@moons160 Ummmm, Egyptians and Greeks. Stupid question (no offense).
Yes, stubborn supersticious people have a way using emotion and tragedy to forward a belief system. Funny how this belief system claims their god has their back but he allows this shit to happen. It gets the most sympathy but that doesn't give it a free ride into truth.
Expulsuon span 612, FC in Byzantium Merovignia and Toledo, stake burnings Toledo638, expulsion Visigothic and toledo, FC span 681, enslaved Toledo 692, OUTLAWED Judaism Byzantium 722, about 80 more expulsions until today, mob attacks, pogroms, more mob attacks and pogroms, burned alive in seville, public torture and execution, 1/3 of Jewry slaughtered in Poland, mass murder and FC in 1391, mass slaughter in prague, 12000 slaughtered in spain and 8000 in Toledo, So many more (cont)
including the holocaust which killed over 6 million Jews.
What's my point? Jews have suffered more than ANY group in history (now ur going to say- oh, your G-d must not love you) b/c of either leaving G-d, or sinning, or reasons we don't know.
The point is Judaism has lasted through everything and will never perish. Our time will come? Yes, when the messiah comes and you'll see the truth.
And it dsn't expose personal hypocricy, b/c only 1 religion can be right, and im not fighting
@moons160 No, a roman catholic hated the Jews for killing christ. It's simple. Religious people killed religious people for religious reasons. Yes, your god must've felt like shit just watching "his sons" people suffer and not doing a goddamn thing about it.
He's taking his sweet ass time isn't he. Religions have been shown to die. No messiah has been proven to ever reveal himself. He supposedly came once but that was WAY too late and did nothing. Supersticion has lasted.
Actually, the Jews didn't kill Jesus, the Romans did; get your facts straight.
And about the suffering; Moses, Abraham, Rabbi Akiva all asked the same question (as well as many great thinkers). G-d chose the Jewish people for a task: to be a "Kingdom of Priests and Holy Nation;" to demonstrate to the world there is G-d who cares what goes on on earth and he ddn't abandon his creation. So why does G-d punish us? Is it b/c when we sin he holds it more strictly against us? (cont)
...perhaps. But this is not for me to say. G-d has a reason for everything he does. Perhaps we don't know the reason b/c if we knew there was a good reason for it, why would we want to stop it? That is why G-d hides the reason from us.... so that we will do whatever we can to, protest, stop or alleviate it. G-d cannot fit into our puny brains.
Well, right now it's 5771 in Jewish calendar. Year 6000 is the "latest" time for the messiah to come. No, there was no previous messiah.
I don't know who you are referring to, but it is certainly not our philosophy (and yes im speaking for Jewish orthodoxy as a whole) to seek out conversions. We actually don't recommend them since if you convert to Judaism you are punished for doing things you normally wouldn't be (breaking shabbos) and must keep 613 mitzvot. You can be perfectly happy, good souled non-Jew and go to heaven (7 Laws of Noah)
...then we go to hell? When Jews don't even believe in hell, Islam and Christianity come along, both based on Judaism btw, and all of a sudden there is a hell if we don't follow them on the word of 1 man. If G-d truly wanted us to change our path, he wud appear to many. That's just 1 logical reason I know those religions are fake. And Judaism dsnt believe Muslims/christians go to hell or even get punished for being what they are; as long as they are moral people.
@moons160 So your god doesn't care about the rest of the world, just the location that made him up. What a guy. If people can be moral without Judaism, it's lost it's entire credibility.
Completely false. G-d loves every single person on this earth, which is evident when G-d created man (not Jew), and "saw he was good."
And the whole point of Judaism isn't just to be "moral." We have the purpose of living a meaningful life and serving G-d. We are also supposed to be a "light to the gentiles" in our actions.
And btw, people weren't so moral b4 Judaism. During the time of Noah, stealing, murder, and rape was common and wasn't even seen as immoral.
@moons160 Saw he was good only if he was a follower. He doesn't love all of the world because if any god love the entire world, he wouldn't have created certain parts right ontop of the ring of fire (falt lines) and wouldn't have come to one location. With so much of the earth left, he says nothing of it.
That still implies moral superiority otherwise, why join?
"saw he was good only if he was a follower" Um, no. It doesn't say anything about follower (but nice try). Every time you make something up you "lose credibility." Obviously you have never read the bible and you seem to like presenting your own ideas and saying that's what G-d says.
And you're srsly asking why G-d created certain terrain?? And he actually says a great deal about the world as a whole; once again READ THE BIBLE b4 saying stupid things.
@moons160 So you're good if you're not a follower? Everytime you claim god is loving and life is a gift but avoid the fact that children die, you and your entire system of belief loses credibility (thanks). Obviously you believe that theists are the only ones who can interpret a religion correctly while most non-believers actually apply honesty, logic and reason to these claims.
Not terrain, natural hazards. Pay attention before calling someone stupid.
Yes you're good if ur not a follower as long as you follow 7 laws of noah (don't kill, dont steal, etc...). And that's a very common atheist argument; why is there so much pain in the world. Yes children die, but if there was no death, we wouldn't appreciate life. If there was no evil, there would be no good (its all relative). I'm not saying thats the reason why, but im putting it in perspective. G-d has a reason for everything he does even if we dont understand it right now.
@moons160 Then you don't need to be a Jew and all you're religion is doing is stealing credit for laws your religion didn't create. How does a child appreciate life. You really need to think before you type. No offense. If there was no evil, we'd already be in heaven but your god clearly enjoys seeing people suffer and beg. Put it in the perspective of reality and I'm fine with that but putting it in the perspective that your god means for this shit to happen, is disgusting.
Yes, you don't need to be a Jew, but Judaism (with 10 commandements and 7 laws noah) established basic morality in the world.
The baby child who was murdered doesn't appreciate life (his soul lives on however and perhaps reincarnated), but the rest of us do. I can't tell you why, but for some reason it was for the best.
And u should think b4 u type with all the logical fallacies you make.
And the point isn't to reach heaven, rather make the best from this world
@moons160 So without judaism, you're not moral? That's bullshit and Judaism didn't come from all over the world, it came from one location in the middle east. The very violent middle east.
For the best. That's beyond immoral and your god should'nt have created that child to suffer and die to bring us some unknown reason nobody can logically answer for.
Like? Exactly.
If heaven is a place you're suppose to go, that clearly is the point. You don't go from heaven to earth.
No, but without Judaism, there would be no morality. And Judaism began in the middle east, but the word of G-d applies everywhere.
I'm srry I can't provide you with what you feel is an adequate answer. But let me ask you: should children be immortal? Why have anyone die at all then?
Like? You just made one. I said Judaism established basic morality, but u dnt have to be a Jew, and you concluded, "without Judaism, you're not moral?" No...U dnt have to be Jewish to b moral.
"Not terrain. natural hazards" 1)Terrain can be hazardous. 2) Ur basically asking the same question as b4 (see above answer)
And I was calling the things u said stupid, not you, and I was referring to when u said G-d doesn't say anything about the rest of the earth, which is completely false.
@moons160 but were was god for 2000 years? we didnt see anything from him no miracles no help when someone needs it. i think religons were made up look just the similarities ofthe bible,torah and the Qur'an. ( im muslim)
You're asking a very nice question. In fact, we have a holiday dedicated to that idea. Purim. In the story of Purim, not once does it mention the name of G-d. This is b/c, while the story was certainly a miracle, it was a "Nes Nistar (Hidden miracle)." The idea that G-d performs hidden miracles (from small to large) in todays world. When massiah comes, prophets said he would perform miracles that were incredible even to the time period (even with all technology); more than sea split.
No offence to them, but if you review Christianity, you'll see it's ridiculous.
As for Islam, it is actually "better" than Christianity (according to the Ramban/m), but it is still
clearly false.
That's not to say that it's ideas are bad (although terrorist is a different issue- small groups of muslims) and if you actually are a good moral Islam you will certainly have a good place in heaven- just like a good moral christian and Jew.
Could you kindly elaborate on the "it is still clearly false" statement?? what proof do you have to this?
and what exactly is your definition of "terrorists? Now the word is being used only in relation to Muslims just to serve political needs of certain parties, another big media lie! does the word possible cover the daily terror commited by Israelis? or is it because jews "dont believe in hell" that they think they can get away with anything?
@moons160 from an objective POV - Jeremiah was a true prophet and they did not listen to him, and they killed him, calling him a false prophet and then his prophecies came true. In fact, many prophets of Torah were disregarded by the majority of the Hebrews during the times that they lived, and were martyred. #2 Jesus (yeshua) told his disciples that John the Baptist was Elijah, obviously siting the prophecy from Malachi, while letting them know who he was. He also said,"I came to fulfill Torah"
Don't forget, at the time that many of these prophets came Israel was dis-unified and weren't following the Torah
or Hashem properly at all (idols, mochel, etc..) which is why they actually needed a prophet. All the prophets that are in our books are true prophets b/c their prophecy was relevant to Am Yisrael and came true.
Jesus barely said anything. The first one to "record" what he "said" came 50 yrs after his death.
@moons160 I'd say, good point on the prophets of Torah - They didn't recognize Torah and thus did not recognize the Word of (The Name). But it was the Religious leaders of Israel who would have been early types of Rabbis who judged prophecy - not the secular King (arguably they were all far from Torah).
"Jesus barely said anything." That is simply a falsehood. He quoted from Torah, Nevi'im, and Ketuvim 78 times. On the 50 yrs - this is considered an excellent range of time for accuracy's sake.
I'm not sure if you're understanding me, or mybe it's the other way around. To clarify: the prophets in neviim were all following the Torah and Hashem fully, while the ppl weren't. And it wasn't for anyone to judge until their prophecy actually happened.
And Jesus certainly didn't say he was the son of G-d; that was made up by followers.
And 50 years later a person who probably barely knew Jesus (b/c of the obvious age difference)...I wouldn't consider that so accurate.
@moons160 "And Jesus certainly didn't say he was the son of G-d; that was made up by followers." That's patently false. Jesus received worship, pronounced that He was in fact G-d in substance, and operated in authority under that same self-identification. John 8:58 : "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am" This is the same self-identification as in Exodus 3:14.
At this point it's an opinion whether on not you can trust the new testament.
Lets say he did say he was G-d in substance/son of G-d....
That also goes against every idea in Judaism; G-d has only ever sent angels; never gone into human form.
And acc to what we learn he wouldn't: we are so careful to keep the 10 commandments (Do not have any other G-d's, AKA polytheism) that we don't even say "Modim" twice in prayer (if sme ppl want to emphasize) b/c it might b like bowing -
@moons160 Not the case at all. The oral tradition is at least dated to 36 AD. The Chester Beatty Library in Dublin possesses conforming text to this effect. Supporting the major doctrines surrounding Christ, His Divinity and the authority His disciples would operate under. With respect to historicity, there actually isn't a more attested text from antiquity that is more authoritative, more "real" than Sacred Scripture. Twenty-four thousand or so supporting texts. Astounding evidence really.
@moons160 I'd actually point you to Sir Simon Greenleaf. An Atheist of strong conviction who also happened to pen the standard of what constitutes evidence at Harvard Law School, and is still taught and deferred to today. But in the exercise of attempting to disprove the Gospels he found the evidence overwhelmingly persuasive. To the point that he authored The Testimony of The Evangelists presenting said evidence.
If that's how careful G-d wants us to be in prayer, he would not send his son who is himself and they are all one (whatever it means) as it may very easily seem like polytheism or even hint towards it. (In fact, if a Jew is forced to convert to Islam/Christianity, he must die rather than convert to Christianity b/c it borders idolatry, and acc to some is allowed to convert to Islam (very clearly 1 G-d).
@moons160 Well, here's a question I would greatly appreciate your candor on: Is there a word in Hebrew that means "one" but not in a strictly singular sense, but one in which, multiplicity is uniform in unity?
In any case, however accurate you claim the records to be, it doesn't change the fact that the formation of Christianity goes against everything G-d ever told the Jewish people; namely, that the Torah would never change (Toratchem Leolam) and that G-d would never leave the Jews. And the Jews dn't believe in hell, and all of a sudden christians do? And if Jews dn't change their religion on the word of 1 man we all go to hell? Even if we were following the right G-d?
@moons160 So this begs the question, has the Torah been revealed further by Jewish scholars since 33 AD? If the answer is "yes" then your definition of "change" may be lacking...Is that fair? I also don't believe your apprehension concerning the soul's final destination is correct. There have been theological errors committed by people Christ would never endorse in the past, but within The Church, the truth of Christ's love has always found a way to endure. Perhaps closer examination is needed.
Torah consists of everything we have. We got the writen Torah, as well as the ORAL torah at Har Sinai (which is the explanation of the Torah) and scholars don't change anything, simply interpret the Torah which contains so many life lessons and guidelines.
Creating a new book which G-d didn't give to us, however, is not acceptable at all. G-d would never do such a thing (cont)
@moons160 Funny enough, the Jewish Sacred Tradition sounds very very familiar. Catholic Sacred Tradition (Including Orthodox obviously) holds the same approach concerning the deposit of faith as being more than simply written Sacred Scripture.. But what the NT does, does not conflict with the OT. It is supplemental and complimentary. It should be noted as well that "The Bible" is merely a record of accounts, in letters and in various books. Itself is a collection of books.
@moons160 Why would He though? in Genesis 18, He isn't as He was revealed there correct? So what leads you to believe that G-d would have to appear one way or another, apart from a specific promise?
@moons160 "G-d would never leave the Jews" YHVH will never leave the Jews. He promised this to Abram (soon to be Abraham) and then to Joshua and that promise was for the Am Yisrael! You are completely right. He is faithful.
Follow your God, He promises that if you seek Him with all your heart you will find Him. Col Ha Cavod!
First, your using capital characters weakens your point alot, there is never a need to yell or stress your words if your making any sense.
Second " expect a whole nation to convert on the word of 1 man" you got me laugh there. Comparing 23% of the global population, 1.57 billion people, 50 countries to the few million Israeli? let along the fact that you can hardly call a group of people who decided to build their lives on the pain and killing of others a nation!
@moons160 Third you said Islam was clearly false, I expected a convincing evidence based on logic, instead you came up with some quotes of what you call Turah. I belive in Turah, but the real one, not the modified version. You wanna talk about historically accurate, look at Quraan and how it remianed exactly the same along the years and all over the world?
G-d gave 3 million Jews the Torah (you agree?), It says in the Torah G-d will never leave the Jewish people and the Torah will never change, Islam- based on Judaism- says Jews are doing the wrong thing so G-d left them.
Another argument: Jews don't believe in hell - don't force ppl to convert, Islam comes along- believes in hell and forces people to convert (yes it did).
@moons160 Convert on the word of one man?? seriously?? I thought propher Musa too was one man? where is the argument here?
Lastly,y killing and terrorising innoscents daily, t& aking cover of religion for personal and political profits are enough reason to burn in hell, I wouldnt worry about it.
why are theists afraid of the term "I don't know". I'm an atheist, and I have NO idea where we came from, how it happened or why it happened, or even if there is a why, it could have been purely by chance that we all evolved here. But just because I don't know, doesn't mean it had to be god, that would be an error of corralation and causation. I have no real issue with people formulating the hypothisys of a god, just the statement that it's fact.
CrackersL 1 month ago
Atheism is NOT a belief, it is the absence of belief, and a trust in observable evidence. In any scientific organization, it is not up to the non-believer to prove the belief, it's up to the believer. I deny the existance for "God" but I do not deny the possibility of a "Creator", but this creator would be completely natural, not supernatural, which means we have the ability to understand this creators power.
CrackersL 1 month ago
@CrackersL i completely agree with you bro
xplicitbori3 1 week ago
You dont have any evidence. God is invisible you bullshiting bastard and has never been here
Mee551able 1 month ago
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TheVukadin 1 month ago
i WONT believe WHATEVER you want me to believe
SuperJackF 1 month ago
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@chiaromontestephen Faith means that you have a belief in something even though that something cant yet be seen. Atheist are totally convinced of what they belief in even though they are not sure that what they belief in is a 100 percent accurate. You see. Faith.
rikkyricardoo 3 months ago
@123454321qcat Faith means that you have a belief in something even though that something cant yet be seen. Atheist are totally convinced of what they belief in even though they are not sure that what they belief in is a 100 percent accurate. You see. Faith.
rikkyricardoo 3 months ago
@rikkyricardoo exactly dude exactly, Science take turns and they have more faith in such things. They refuse to study the subject of religion and they say they know science. What if the basic definition of science? Gaining knowledge on the basis of scientific method... They do that to religion? LOL NOT
flexpape 2 months ago
@flexpape you are wrong, in fact, generally when I'm arguing with a theist I usually have a better understanding of their faith than they do. I have read the bible, the koran and many works from other theistic beliefs.
CrackersL 1 month ago
@CrackersL you sir i don't think so that you have read Qur'an. Reading pitches of it from an anti islamic site lol..... Guess what cool thing u did there. There are lot of things that you can't scientifically prove but they are reality like Emotions. Math , Logic. What proof of God? We have Torah, Psalms, Gospel and Qur'an and you are saying that you don't have enough proof? Dude, try to watch arrival series.
flexpape 1 month ago
I think that we should accept eachother and our beliefs,whether they be Theistic or Atheistic,and judge on the individual person, rather than a whole group. Of course I'm not saying that won't also lead to problems(Example: Hatred for someone elses personality/mentality) , but it would also fix many problems we already have(Example: Religious conflicts ON A LARGE scale) . I'm also not saying that day will come soon(or ever), but it would be interesting to see.
YouAdmireThisName 3 months ago
Every human has faith , they just deposit it in different things. Most atheist have more faith than a christian , i mean, to believe something came out nothing , wow.
rikkyricardoo 4 months ago
@rikkyricardoo i will say it for about the millionth time. atheists do not i repeat DO NOT have faith. atheism is a lack of belief in god. you theists continuely make these ridiculous claims like "atheists have faith just like christians" or "everybody has faith in something". about your statement saying "i mean, to believe something came out of nothing, wow." simply shows your ignorance and lack of knowledge of science.
chiaromontestephen 3 months ago
@rikkyricardoo Atheism makes no claims about the start of the universe. It is a rejection of theistic claims. That's all.
123454321qcat 3 months ago
what I find fascinating whenever I witness religious people floundering in the face of science and reason is to ask what is the catalyst which drives them to close their eyes in such a way? I'm sure a study of this would nearly always reveal that it is a feeling of betraying "mummy" or "daddy" should they even consider that religion is (obviously) bullshit. To even question faith is to actually betray their parents/school teacher/cosy foundations.
ryko26 6 months ago
atheism isn't "true." it makes no positive claims about the universe. it is simply a lack of belief.
RipzOnNubes 6 months ago
space is huuuuuge and the chances are that somewhere in it there is going to be life even though the chances of it being in one particular place is very unlikely e.g it is like winning the lotto , you probably won't win but it is probable that somebody will win. Also atheist generally agree with everything science has to say . Just because parts of science are not yet properly understood does not mean that it is evidence of god.
TheHeineken1990 6 months ago
Am I the only one who notes that he says firstly that Atheists believe that the world was always in existence(and totally skips the big bounce theory) and that it was formed 15 BILLION years ago?...closer to 13 TRILLION....
TheTriangulation 7 months ago
@TheTriangulation I've never heard the 13 trillion figure. Usually one hears 13.7 billion years (and a few years ago it was thought to be around 15 billion years).
sorrysonofa 6 months ago
@sorrysonofa wow....you're right. For so reason I had the notion it was trillion not billion but I looked it up and it is..weird..Thank you.
TheTriangulation 6 months ago
@TheTriangulation no problem!
sorrysonofa 6 months ago
First piece of evidence is Not evidence, it is a play on words, Number two? No, still no evidence... three then...no... surely four, NO, come on it must be five... WTF you complete wast of time WLC you said you had evidence and you lied.
TheTomtompiper 7 months ago
@TheTomtompiper He's a good conman. I wouldn't doubt it on his free time if he's preaching on the street corner with a megaphone.
charlesfloyb 7 months ago
if god really and does EXIST why do people debate on his existence...
lamasoglawas 7 months ago
Has dr craig ever wondered why the people best able to evaluate his scientific arguments for god (members of the royal society, national academy, etc) are over 90% atheist? Science cannot prove/disprove god but it does make the holy books look silly. No objective study into religion has ever shown any religion to be more/less true than any other and even within each religion there are disagreements. In the absence of evidence the default position is atheism.
timrice666 7 months ago
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“The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.” (Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11: Written during the Administration of George Washington and signed into law by John Adams.)
MagicTellaVision 8 months ago
is this dude trolling?
IDMWEIGHTSIDM 8 months ago
does anyone think this guy actually thinks he knows what he's talking about?
BozoTheBear 8 months ago
Why Every Thing Has an opposite .. is the proof behind god , the devil , ... or what science dubs " the membrains " ...
( and on a side note if you can under stand 11th dimensional Math and how we Proved it exist )and if you know a little quantum physics (( you would see ))
JSprayaEntertainment 8 months ago
Where does God come from?
TheRunner041795 8 months ago
Religion uses faith, not evidence. I'd say from the start, the evidence points where it's actually used.
clipsryan 8 months ago
Both atheist and theist positions share a belief,and are therefore flawed.Choosing a side is fine,but arguing is pointless.A truly wise person would admit they could be wrong.....sadly,most of us 'know' we're right.
noblepuker 9 months ago
@noblepuker That's not the point. Saying "See, I was right." isn't the point of the debate. The point is to help people challenge their beliefs and either strengthen them or drop them. Atheism isn't a belief, it's the position one takes when they're not convinced there are any gods. Sometimes that position is met with a "yet". I'm curious what you mean by we share a belief.
clipsryan 8 months ago
@clipsryan my comment is poorly worded.Both stubborn sides 'know' they're right,when neither could.(there are exceptions,of course) I'm all about logic,but don't dismiss a creator.I love debate and sharing thoughts.I'm very curious why some think what they do,and occasionally learn from it.These are the most fascinating,deep questions in existence.I have a friend who actually asked me "why do you care how universe started,or where we originated" I told him to stop speaking to me.
noblepuker 8 months ago
@noblepuker One side thinks they're right and the other side actually cares if they're right. This creator is nothing but your ego unless you can prove he/she/it exists and the universe coming into existence is no more important than the details of this universe at this point. If this creator is nothing more than the being that started the big bang, how do you tell the difference between "him", other gods or the universe itself?
clipsryan 8 months ago
@clipsryan Logic is my god,and science my bible.I am NOT a convert,i just no longer call myself an atheist.Yes,there's a mountain of evidence that supports a series of logical events leading back 14 billion years to a sinularity.This object was either 'made',or is part of a process,but u can't follow it back forever.Eventually you'll reach a point where even the hardened atheist will scratch his head.Unless you believe in infinity,or the 'allways existed' theory which are incredibly illogical.
noblepuker 8 months ago
@noblepuker It's honesty that allows you to scratch your head. That's the process of learning other than the process of putting a god in every gap we haven't filled with scientific understanding yet. I applaud those that admit when science eleminates their previous beliefs.
clipsryan 8 months ago
oops i ment
1.chance
2.multiverse
3.computer simulation
4.design
455200930 9 months ago
no its
1.natural law
2.chance
3.multiverse
4.design fail
455200930 9 months ago
He needs to learn what "singularity" means. Coming from the singularity is very different than coming from nothing. Very, very different. And he lost me when he started saying "if the cause is impersonal, the universe must be eternal". No logical leap got him there; he just assumed it for no reason other than to prove his own theistic point. Also, why does he assume eternal means unchanging? If I exist forever, why can't I also change?
Kalam only works until the "anthropomorphic principle".
IceMetalPunk 9 months ago
@KrfNYC2 I can agree with you. This is why I became agnostic. " I know that I know nothing". The person in this video clearly hasn't received that message.
SgtGeddes 9 months ago
I didn't watch the whole video or even read the comments. I love to debate and question things but I must say that I'm growing so weary of this argument. I'm becoming content to simply rid my mind of this discussion and , when night comes, go to sleep.
KrfNYC2 10 months ago
Dr. Craig's smug arrogance really annoys me... his arguments are even worse!
wownov83 10 months ago
Prove God doesn't exist is the first question? How biased can you get?
NormanAngle 10 months ago
HAHA craig is a joke. Totally failed to convince me a nonbeliever. SO an Atheist I remain.
GodKillerAtheist 10 months ago
One question. How do you get something out of nothing? This is basic science! So to all atheist, prove why the world is today the way it is. Since you all belive that from chaos you get harmony, check the logic.
teslic100 11 months ago
@teslic100 "How do you get something out of nothing?"
Well if you're a theist you think God spoke everything into existence from nothing.
From a scientific view the universe is deterministic. So you can't get something from nothing. You were obviously tricked to think the big bang theory had something to do with my lack of belief in your cults claims.
Science in regards to the big bang never says that everything came from nothing nor does it support Craigs apocalyptic world view
GodKillerAtheist 10 months ago
@teslic100 Exactly. so much so, how do you also get reason from irratioality? They don't think about these things, which is why Athiesm is a joke.
18dvine 10 months ago
@teslic100
The same question goes to creational-theists.
NormanAngle 10 months ago
You know whats funny?
When religion tries to act scientific.
Lol their only evidence is a 2000 year old text. Didnt even stop to question its authenticity.
Its like if someone were to find the book of peter pan 2000 years from now and read it and then conclude he can fly if he really believes!
Yes... Moses really did part the seas, because soemhow hes like a superhero. Not quite as cool as peter pan, but just as believeable.
MrDoobious 11 months ago 10
@MrDoobious It's called faith. And God reveals that he is true all around us through his general and special revelation. only a fool would not be able to see this.
18dvine 10 months ago
@18dvine What alot of words to say nothing.
God has never revealed himself to me.
Tell me, when did he knock at your door?
MrDoobious 10 months ago
@MrDoobious He has revealed himself to you. He has revealed himself to the world through nature, people and everything else. Many people have unfortunately failed to see Him through revelation and His word. He doesn't show himself physically, because his glory is to much. When did he "knock on my door"? at a young age, thankfully, I realized that Christ needed to be the center of my life.
*Side Questinon* what do you think happens yo people when they die?
18dvine 10 months ago
@18dvine - If he revealed himself in his human form and allowed us to take pictures, take hair samples, and other DNA samples, then I would believe he exists. Why doesn't he show himself physically? It would make his existence much more believable if he was tangible. That which isn't tangible can not be tested. That which can not be tested can not be proven. That which can not be proven is just a mere guess.
Critic863 10 months ago
@Critic863 I appreciate the thought. As far as question on why he doesn't reveal himself physically is because his magnificence is to great. this is where having faith in His word comes into play. In the Bible, the reason he doens't reveal himself physically or as something tangible is cause if we saw Him, his glory would be too much for us to handle. There are many examples in the Bible where this happens; like Moses and the burning bush. God's glory was too great he couldn't even look at him.
18dvine 10 months ago
@18dvine - Well if he loves his children, that means he doesn't want to send us to hell. If he doesn't want to send us to hell, the best solution would be for him to reveal himself, which would convert all non-believers, saving them from eternal torture.
I'm confused, Jesus is God's son? I have heard countless times that they are the same person. I have not seen a bit of consistency on this issue.
Critic863 10 months ago
@Critic863 In the end, all will see Him and every knee will bow and know He is God. He does love all of us, but the Bible says in Romans 3:23 that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Because of sin, many reject Him, even though he has shown unconditional love for us. But there is hope, Jesus Christ. God can't reveal himself physically, cause humans would die at the sight of Him, which is why he reveals Himself in Nature and His word.
18dvine 10 months ago
@18dvine - Why does he even bother waiting?
Critic863 10 months ago
@Critic863 Why does He even bother waiting for what? For people to die to realize that God was who He said He was? If that is the question, I'll say again that God has revealed Himself. Everyone has the opportunity to hear about God. It comes down to a matter of faith in Jesus Christ, who, took on the wrath of God for our sins so that we can be free in Him. But for those who shove it aside and reject God, His judgement comes in. Man's purpose is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever.
18dvine 10 months ago
@18dvine - Yes. He has his plan all worked out and he already knows who is going to heaven and hell. Why is he waiting? Why not just either reward or punish everyone right now?
Critic863 10 months ago
@Critic863 And that is a question that a lot of people wonder about. Even I, a Christian, wonder why he doesn't end it all now. He could, if He wanted to. And the answer to why he doesn't right now is simply because of His will. God's timing is absolutely unknowable to us. I know I keep saying this, but it is so true that it all comes down to faith in Him. The time will come, but in the meantime, we are to do his will of which he has revealed to us, which is to bring glory to Him.
18dvine 10 months ago
@18dvine - Faith is not a good enough reason for me to believe in anything supernatural. Faith is a primitive state of common sense, but in this day in age, we have scientifically progressed beyond what numerous people in the past had thought to be impossible. I trust that much more than faith.
Critic863 10 months ago
@Critic863 And honestly, I can't convert you. You just have to believe it, and only God can do that. I'm just trying to make you think. Let me ask you some questions though. First, what do you think happens to people when they die?
18dvine 10 months ago
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@18dvine - I simply do not know.
Critic863 10 months ago
@18dvine They rot.
LesPaul2006 9 months ago
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@LesPaul2006 How do you know this to be true?
18dvine 9 months ago
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@LesPaul2006 How do you know this to be true?
18dvine 9 months ago
@LesPaul2006 I tried sending this earlier twice, but idk if it got through cause it's not showing my comment, but just in case, i'll ask again. How do you know this to be true?
18dvine 9 months ago
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@18dvine - "First, what do you think happens to people when they die?"
If you are good, you have the option to attend the debates and lectures of Christopher Hitchens.
If you have been bad, you are required to attend the lectures of William Lane Craig.
wseerldnoeoedfry 9 months ago
@18dvine - "First, what do you think happens to people when they die? "
If they are good, they have the option to attend the debates of Christopher Hitchens.
If they are are evil, they are required to attend the lectures of William Lane Craig.
wseerldnoeoedfry 9 months ago
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18dvine 10 months ago
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18dvine 10 months ago
@Critic863 It is up to us to believe in Him. In all honesty, this is hard topic to discuss (on why he doesn't just save everyone). the short answer, though, is that God has not designed the course of history so that all people will be saved. If God so desires, He certainly has the ability to cause everyone to be saved. It is not His will. God can desire all to be saved, but He must also execute righteous judgement on them, and all who have not trusted in Christ will be lost.
18dvine 10 months ago
@Critic863 To sum up the Trinity, God is three persons, The father, son, and Holy Spirit. Each person is God, the father is God, the Son is God, and the HS is God. But the Father isn't the son, the son isn't the HS, the H.S. isn't the son, and vice versa. Picture a triangle, three ponts each being the father, son, and HS. each side of the triangle is pointing to each person of the trinity that says "not". In the center, it says "God" and arrows point to God from each person that says, "is".
18dvine 10 months ago
@Critic863 However, he did, of course, send Jesus, His son, as a man. The trinity is a hard thing to grasp, but in essence, the three parts of God are the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus was the *closest* that humans have ever seen God in a physical form.
18dvine 10 months ago
@MrDoobious
So many flaws in what you just said.
One, if there is a G-d and he gave a book, what do you want him to do? Update it every century? You're pretty much saying that there is no G-d because the bible was given too long ago.
Secondly, someone finding a book 2000 years ago is in no way the same thing as passing down a book from generation to generation since 3 mil Jews saw G-d.
Third, Moses didn't part the sea, G-d did.
moons160 8 months ago
@moons160 If god updated it, he'd clearly admit that he made a mistake and wasn't god. It's no secret why a book written by ignorant people, would contain their specific ignorance. It's the same case for other theists and their collection of myths.
God supposedly gave Moses the power to part the red sea but sense there's no proof of it even happening, who cares?
clipsryan 8 months ago
@clipsryan
Exactly.
That's why G-d doesn't update it, b/c it is a guide for ever.
And u still dn't understand the stupidity of wat ur saying. Basically "There is no G-d b/c the world is too old".
And what ignorances are u referring to?
What proof do you want? What proof could there be of a parting sea?
By the way, google it and ull find physicists who say that it was possible given the right conditions for land to be exposed at the documented spot, and chariots found today in red sea.
moons160 8 months ago
@moons160 I don't remember saying there's no god because the earth is too old. That's idiotic. There's no god because there's no proof.
The myths that arise from those that use supersticion instead of actual truth.
A supposed god granting anyone the power to part a sea, today. That's all.
Possible isn't proof of it happening and those physicists usually have a hidden agenda.
clipsryan 8 months ago
@clipsryan
So let me ask you a question.
What theory do you follow about how the universe came to be (by the way, theory as in possibility- also not a proof of it happening)?
moons160 8 months ago
@moons160 I don't follow any theories. Also, by your statement that a theory isn't proof, you clearly don't know what a theory is. To answer your question, I think it's pointless to care how the universe came into existence but sense time and space don't exist outside of it, a god creating it, is not only irrelevant, but a huge claim of no merit. What does this have to do with the red sea?
clipsryan 8 months ago
@clipsryan
Not much to do with the Red Sea, just wondering how you think the world came into being.
I think it's stupid and ignorant to not care how the universe came into being b/c you, who claim to use reason, refuse to think about the origin of your existence.
Back to the Red Sea, I'd say finding chariots is pretty convincing. More convincing is that 3 million Jews saw G-d and told their children and their children's children from generation to generation until today.
moons160 8 months ago
@moons160 Yet you still refuse to explain how you think it came into being, and why.
The origin of my existence is through evolution. That's something we actually know about. It's ignorant to think something exists without having to prove it but it's not ignorant to not care how the universecame into being.
Millions of followers (Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist ect) claiming they saw something they can't prove (like your chariots prove the red sea was parted) is worth nothing.
clipsryan 8 months ago
@clipsryan
I thought I made that obvious; G-d created the universe.
And ur making a very big mistake.
All other religions claim 1 man had some sort or revelation and his followers believed him.
For the Jews it was 3million people who all saw G-d and who all told their children they did.
My father would not lie to me about something he saw; not something like that.
That may not be proof to you, but there are so many things that convince me: (continue)
moons160 8 months ago
@moons160 You made no claim because you didn't even try to explain how.
That's nice.
Yes, but you don't believe them in the same way I don't but you apply special pleading for your beliefs.
Yes, I read you the first time. So what? That doesn't prove a claim. The majority of America claim this is a christian nation. It's clearly not.
Until he or you can prove it, him being your father is irrelevant. Stop being so damn gullible.
Yes, you're gullible.
clipsryan 8 months ago
The fact the sages approximated the stars in the universe to be so close to the scientifical approximation today (when at that time people thought there were only hundrers, instead of 10^24).
The fact that the bible says there is more water outside the earth than inside.
The Jewish prophet who described the world as round (when it was thought to be flat) - (srry forgot which 1 it was i'll look it up, but i believe he used the word "Igul" "circular")
Matter cnt be destroyed = in Torah
moons160 8 months ago
@moons160 You still haven't explained how you think the universe came into being and why. Sages making a prediction doesn't prove the entire religion is correct.
Well, no shit there is. It says a woman was created from a rib. How does that counter their biological error?
Saying round doesn't imply a ball when god supposedly saw all of the earth from above. It would've had to be flat for that.
There are particles that go In and out of existence = in science books.
clipsryan 8 months ago
@clipsryan
G-d created the universe (that's how).
Why? There are a lot of given explanations but i will not list them. I will simply say, if G-d was transparent he wouldn't be much of a G-d. I mean to say that u can find many reasons, but I personally feel we can never fully comprehend G-d. I feel he made the world so we could do good and recognize the good he has given..
Sages: so what does it prove?
water: Plz restate
Round and not flat implies ball
Law of conservation of matter n energy??
moons160 8 months ago
@moons160 That's quite a vague and extreme statement. Nice going in avoiding evidence for that claim. How do you know it was god, your god and not Allah or Vishnu?
"Why? There are a lot of given explanations but i will not list them." You just destroyed any credibility you might've had. If you can't comprehend something you think exists, you can't claim it does.
It says "corners" and looking down on the entire planet, would imply it's flat. Even people after Christ thought it was flat.
clipsryan 8 months ago
@clipsryan
Obviously there's no irrefutable evidence I can present or we wouldn't be having this discussion.
I know my G-d is the true 1 b/c of my studies and logic. To give you an example, it mentions 24 times in the bible G-d will never change the Torah and also says G-d will not leave to Jewish people. Christianity and Islam claim G-d came to 1 man and told of a new path. While 3 mil Jews saw G-d, were supposed to change our religion b/c 1 man said G-d spoke to him? And if we dnt, (cont)
moons160 8 months ago
@moons160 Exactly my point.
How the fuck is that evidence for your god over hundreds of others? Not to mention how not all Jews nor believers of christ believe the same. Multiple gods and multiple interpretations of gods means that man apply their beliefs to their gods and not the other way around.
clipsryan 8 months ago
@clipsryan
I'm not arguing with you about Christianity, b/c clearly I don't believe in it. The fact that they have over 30,000 denominations that believe each other denomination will go to hell is a very obvious proof that Christianity is "fake."
And while there are differ interpretations for specific items in Torah, not all are correct, and ppl who dn't follow the Torah correctly don't receive the same rewards. For ex, I believe Jewish orthodoxy is the correct path, but conserv/reform (cont)
moons160 8 months ago
@clipsryan
...dont go to hell. They simply aren't doing some things right due to people in history who decided to change (reform) something.
And the evidence in very clear to me in both a textual, logical, and spiritual sense (and on a personal level many things I've learnt and seen), but I doubt I can present a single piece of evidence to u that'll completely sway your opinion.
moons160 8 months ago
@moons160 And what's their punishment?
Spirituality doesn't have anything to do with logic (or anything). You doubt you can? Sounds like a lack of faith. Try me.
clipsryan 8 months ago
@clipsryan
Their punishment may be something in this life or the next. I can't tell you b/c, obviously, I'm not G-d.
"Spirituality doesn't have anything to do with logic." Right, but it's one of the things that make me connected to G-d.
A lack of faith in myself, perhaps?
I'm pretty young and I have a lot to learn, and belief in G-d, for most people, comes from not just 1 "piece of evidence," but frm a combination of experiences/studies/spirituality.
I'm also not attempting 2 convert any1
moons160 8 months ago
@moons160 Obviously your god doesn't know either or you aren't able to communicate with "him".
Or connected to your ego.
Perhaps.
Experiences aren't evidence and again, spirituality doesn't provide anything more than faith does. You are young and it's a good a time as any to get rid of these childish fantasies but aslong as you don't allow these long lasting lies to make you manipulate laws I'm happy.
That's not very christian of you. Good.
clipsryan 8 months ago
@clipsryan
"Obv your god doesn't know either" Um, what? I don't know everything that G-d knows. And yes, I don't hear G-ds voice, I'm not on that level unfortunately.
Right, b/c I like to preach how im amazing and all others will go to hell (not Jewish concept). Experiences can be evidence to the person himself/herself, prob not to others (spirituality is part of that). And you left out studies..
That's b/c I'm not christian; I'm Jewish. We don't seek conversions.
moons160 8 months ago
@moons160 So how do you know anything that god knows? If you take it from a certain religion, that religion has to speak for it's god's knowledge and to be honest, if your religion only contains the knowledge of the people at the time, your god is either a terrible teacher, or not god.
You're Jewish because you think that's the right path. It's passive but it's still insulting. Again, experiences are irrelevant unless they can be made into fact. What studies?
Some do. Why not you?
clipsryan 8 months ago
@clipsryan
That's what separates Judaism from other religions. First off, you can eliminate any religions that haven't survived (Egyptian gods didn't do them much good...) and if you want to look at two biggest there's Islam and christianity. Judaism doesn't believe in hell. Islam/Christianity say 1 man came and said to follow new path when it says in the Torah it will never change and also 3 mil Jews and not 1 person saw G-d. More than that, they say if we dnt listen to this 1 person; hell!
moons160 8 months ago
@moons160 So because they're still here, that makes them correct? That's rediculous because it took the older religions a while to die out thanks to science and the 3 major religions are responsible for most of the continued violence, murder and child abuse we have today and they're starting to lose members aswell. Islam and christianity have a past covered in blood and moderates think they can just change what their religion did and still does to innocent people.
clipsryan 8 months ago
@clipsryan
Not necessarily, obviously b/c not all religions alive today can be right, rather since those religions are NOT here, they are NOT correct.
And bringing up arguments against Islam and Christianity only strengthens my argument for Judaism, so...
moons160 8 months ago
@moons160 Judaism isn't the last remaining religion and many people still believe in those older religions. Your religion's time will come they the ones before it.
No, it exposes the hypocrisy of your special pleading for YOUR religion.
clipsryan 8 months ago
@clipsryan
"many people still believe in those older religions"
Such as? How many ppl worship the Egyptian gods? I
And i know it's not the last remaining religion, but it has endured and survived like no other: expulsion in Canhage, forced conversion Italy (224 C.E), expulsion Jerusalem (325 CE), burning Torah Persia 351, synagogue burning Milan 379, expulsion alexandria, FC minorca, holocaust iphahan 469 CE, SB Antioch daphne and ravenna, expulsion France 554 Ce-561ce, FC Merovingia (cont)
moons160 8 months ago
@moons160 Ummmm, Egyptians and Greeks. Stupid question (no offense).
Yes, stubborn supersticious people have a way using emotion and tragedy to forward a belief system. Funny how this belief system claims their god has their back but he allows this shit to happen. It gets the most sympathy but that doesn't give it a free ride into truth.
clipsryan 8 months ago
@clipsryan
Stupid answer. I asked how many.
And I'm pointing out how Judaism has endured like no other, and the Jews would not have survived if there were no G-d.
moons160 8 months ago
@clipsryan
Expulsuon span 612, FC in Byzantium Merovignia and Toledo, stake burnings Toledo638, expulsion Visigothic and toledo, FC span 681, enslaved Toledo 692, OUTLAWED Judaism Byzantium 722, about 80 more expulsions until today, mob attacks, pogroms, more mob attacks and pogroms, burned alive in seville, public torture and execution, 1/3 of Jewry slaughtered in Poland, mass murder and FC in 1391, mass slaughter in prague, 12000 slaughtered in spain and 8000 in Toledo, So many more (cont)
moons160 8 months ago
@moons160 Jews aren't the only ones martyr.
clipsryan 8 months ago
@clipsryan
including the holocaust which killed over 6 million Jews.
What's my point? Jews have suffered more than ANY group in history (now ur going to say- oh, your G-d must not love you) b/c of either leaving G-d, or sinning, or reasons we don't know.
The point is Judaism has lasted through everything and will never perish. Our time will come? Yes, when the messiah comes and you'll see the truth.
And it dsn't expose personal hypocricy, b/c only 1 religion can be right, and im not fighting
moons160 8 months ago
@moons160 No, a roman catholic hated the Jews for killing christ. It's simple. Religious people killed religious people for religious reasons. Yes, your god must've felt like shit just watching "his sons" people suffer and not doing a goddamn thing about it.
He's taking his sweet ass time isn't he. Religions have been shown to die. No messiah has been proven to ever reveal himself. He supposedly came once but that was WAY too late and did nothing. Supersticion has lasted.
None are.
clipsryan 8 months ago
@clipsryan
Actually, the Jews didn't kill Jesus, the Romans did; get your facts straight.
And about the suffering; Moses, Abraham, Rabbi Akiva all asked the same question (as well as many great thinkers). G-d chose the Jewish people for a task: to be a "Kingdom of Priests and Holy Nation;" to demonstrate to the world there is G-d who cares what goes on on earth and he ddn't abandon his creation. So why does G-d punish us? Is it b/c when we sin he holds it more strictly against us? (cont)
moons160 8 months ago
@clipsryan
...perhaps. But this is not for me to say. G-d has a reason for everything he does. Perhaps we don't know the reason b/c if we knew there was a good reason for it, why would we want to stop it? That is why G-d hides the reason from us.... so that we will do whatever we can to, protest, stop or alleviate it. G-d cannot fit into our puny brains.
Well, right now it's 5771 in Jewish calendar. Year 6000 is the "latest" time for the messiah to come. No, there was no previous messiah.
moons160 8 months ago
@clipsryan
things that Judaism does.
moons160 8 months ago
@clipsryan
"Some do"
I don't know who you are referring to, but it is certainly not our philosophy (and yes im speaking for Jewish orthodoxy as a whole) to seek out conversions. We actually don't recommend them since if you convert to Judaism you are punished for doing things you normally wouldn't be (breaking shabbos) and must keep 613 mitzvot. You can be perfectly happy, good souled non-Jew and go to heaven (7 Laws of Noah)
moons160 8 months ago
@clipsryan
...then we go to hell? When Jews don't even believe in hell, Islam and Christianity come along, both based on Judaism btw, and all of a sudden there is a hell if we don't follow them on the word of 1 man. If G-d truly wanted us to change our path, he wud appear to many. That's just 1 logical reason I know those religions are fake. And Judaism dsnt believe Muslims/christians go to hell or even get punished for being what they are; as long as they are moral people.
moons160 8 months ago
@moons160 So your god doesn't care about the rest of the world, just the location that made him up. What a guy. If people can be moral without Judaism, it's lost it's entire credibility.
clipsryan 8 months ago
@clipsryan
Completely false. G-d loves every single person on this earth, which is evident when G-d created man (not Jew), and "saw he was good."
And the whole point of Judaism isn't just to be "moral." We have the purpose of living a meaningful life and serving G-d. We are also supposed to be a "light to the gentiles" in our actions.
And btw, people weren't so moral b4 Judaism. During the time of Noah, stealing, murder, and rape was common and wasn't even seen as immoral.
moons160 8 months ago
@moons160 Saw he was good only if he was a follower. He doesn't love all of the world because if any god love the entire world, he wouldn't have created certain parts right ontop of the ring of fire (falt lines) and wouldn't have come to one location. With so much of the earth left, he says nothing of it.
That still implies moral superiority otherwise, why join?
Which people? All people? Come on.
clipsryan 8 months ago
@clipsryan
"saw he was good only if he was a follower" Um, no. It doesn't say anything about follower (but nice try). Every time you make something up you "lose credibility." Obviously you have never read the bible and you seem to like presenting your own ideas and saying that's what G-d says.
And you're srsly asking why G-d created certain terrain?? And he actually says a great deal about the world as a whole; once again READ THE BIBLE b4 saying stupid things.
Dnt join; Jews dnt seek converts
moons160 8 months ago
@moons160 So you're good if you're not a follower? Everytime you claim god is loving and life is a gift but avoid the fact that children die, you and your entire system of belief loses credibility (thanks). Obviously you believe that theists are the only ones who can interpret a religion correctly while most non-believers actually apply honesty, logic and reason to these claims.
Not terrain, natural hazards. Pay attention before calling someone stupid.
Again, why?
clipsryan 8 months ago
@clipsryan
Yes you're good if ur not a follower as long as you follow 7 laws of noah (don't kill, dont steal, etc...). And that's a very common atheist argument; why is there so much pain in the world. Yes children die, but if there was no death, we wouldn't appreciate life. If there was no evil, there would be no good (its all relative). I'm not saying thats the reason why, but im putting it in perspective. G-d has a reason for everything he does even if we dont understand it right now.
moons160 8 months ago
@moons160 Then you don't need to be a Jew and all you're religion is doing is stealing credit for laws your religion didn't create. How does a child appreciate life. You really need to think before you type. No offense. If there was no evil, we'd already be in heaven but your god clearly enjoys seeing people suffer and beg. Put it in the perspective of reality and I'm fine with that but putting it in the perspective that your god means for this shit to happen, is disgusting.
clipsryan 8 months ago
@clipsryan
Yes, you don't need to be a Jew, but Judaism (with 10 commandements and 7 laws noah) established basic morality in the world.
The baby child who was murdered doesn't appreciate life (his soul lives on however and perhaps reincarnated), but the rest of us do. I can't tell you why, but for some reason it was for the best.
And u should think b4 u type with all the logical fallacies you make.
And the point isn't to reach heaven, rather make the best from this world
moons160 8 months ago
@moons160 So without judaism, you're not moral? That's bullshit and Judaism didn't come from all over the world, it came from one location in the middle east. The very violent middle east.
For the best. That's beyond immoral and your god should'nt have created that child to suffer and die to bring us some unknown reason nobody can logically answer for.
Like? Exactly.
If heaven is a place you're suppose to go, that clearly is the point. You don't go from heaven to earth.
clipsryan 8 months ago
@clipsryan
No, but without Judaism, there would be no morality. And Judaism began in the middle east, but the word of G-d applies everywhere.
I'm srry I can't provide you with what you feel is an adequate answer. But let me ask you: should children be immortal? Why have anyone die at all then?
Like? You just made one. I said Judaism established basic morality, but u dnt have to be a Jew, and you concluded, "without Judaism, you're not moral?" No...U dnt have to be Jewish to b moral.
moons160 8 months ago
@clipsryan
And heaven is not the point as some may feel.
The point is this world and to make the most out of it. The reward for following the Torah is the
following itself. (Not to say there isn't a reward in heaven)
moons160 8 months ago
@clipsryan
"Not terrain. natural hazards" 1)Terrain can be hazardous. 2) Ur basically asking the same question as b4 (see above answer)
And I was calling the things u said stupid, not you, and I was referring to when u said G-d doesn't say anything about the rest of the earth, which is completely false.
moons160 8 months ago
@moons160 but were was god for 2000 years? we didnt see anything from him no miracles no help when someone needs it. i think religons were made up look just the similarities ofthe bible,torah and the Qur'an. ( im muslim)
soufan23 8 months ago
@soufan23
You're asking a very nice question. In fact, we have a holiday dedicated to that idea. Purim. In the story of Purim, not once does it mention the name of G-d. This is b/c, while the story was certainly a miracle, it was a "Nes Nistar (Hidden miracle)." The idea that G-d performs hidden miracles (from small to large) in todays world. When massiah comes, prophets said he would perform miracles that were incredible even to the time period (even with all technology); more than sea split.
moons160 8 months ago
@soufan23
And, yes, there are similarities.
But which is the small original on which the other larger religions are based on?
moons160 8 months ago
@moons160 i think that the others are based on Judaism
soufan23 8 months ago
@soufan23
Exactly.
moons160 8 months ago
@moons160 so your a jew or a christian
soufan23 8 months ago
@soufan23
A jew.
moons160 8 months ago
@moons160 that explains why you support isreal
soufan23 8 months ago
@soufan23
Yes, it does.
No offence to them, but if you review Christianity, you'll see it's ridiculous.
As for Islam, it is actually "better" than Christianity (according to the Ramban/m), but it is still
clearly false.
That's not to say that it's ideas are bad (although terrorist is a different issue- small groups of muslims) and if you actually are a good moral Islam you will certainly have a good place in heaven- just like a good moral christian and Jew.
Jew's don't believe in hell.
moons160 8 months ago
@moons160
Could you kindly elaborate on the "it is still clearly false" statement?? what proof do you have to this?
and what exactly is your definition of "terrorists? Now the word is being used only in relation to Muslims just to serve political needs of certain parties, another big media lie! does the word possible cover the daily terror commited by Israelis? or is it because jews "dont believe in hell" that they think they can get away with anything?
azziza1111 8 months ago
@azziza1111
1) It says 24 times in the Torah that THAT Torah will never be different/ will never change..It is the Jews Torah "LEOLAM" (forever).
2) We were told by malachi (last Jewish prophet) that the next prophet would be elijah to tell us massiah is coming.
Also, FALSE FUTURE PROPHETS WILL ARISE AND WE ARE FORBIDDEN TO LISTEN TO THEM, EVEN IF THEY PERFORM MIRACLES.
3) Is it logical to expect a whole nation to convert on the word of 1 man? And if we don't we burn in hell?
moons160 8 months ago
@moons160 from an objective POV - Jeremiah was a true prophet and they did not listen to him, and they killed him, calling him a false prophet and then his prophecies came true. In fact, many prophets of Torah were disregarded by the majority of the Hebrews during the times that they lived, and were martyred. #2 Jesus (yeshua) told his disciples that John the Baptist was Elijah, obviously siting the prophecy from Malachi, while letting them know who he was. He also said,"I came to fulfill Torah"
Rofamily6 8 months ago
@Rofamily6
Don't forget, at the time that many of these prophets came Israel was dis-unified and weren't following the Torah
or Hashem properly at all (idols, mochel, etc..) which is why they actually needed a prophet. All the prophets that are in our books are true prophets b/c their prophecy was relevant to Am Yisrael and came true.
Jesus barely said anything. The first one to "record" what he "said" came 50 yrs after his death.
moons160 8 months ago
@moons160 I'd say, good point on the prophets of Torah - They didn't recognize Torah and thus did not recognize the Word of (The Name). But it was the Religious leaders of Israel who would have been early types of Rabbis who judged prophecy - not the secular King (arguably they were all far from Torah).
"Jesus barely said anything." That is simply a falsehood. He quoted from Torah, Nevi'im, and Ketuvim 78 times. On the 50 yrs - this is considered an excellent range of time for accuracy's sake.
Rofamily6 8 months ago
@Rofamily6
I'm not sure if you're understanding me, or mybe it's the other way around. To clarify: the prophets in neviim were all following the Torah and Hashem fully, while the ppl weren't. And it wasn't for anyone to judge until their prophecy actually happened.
And Jesus certainly didn't say he was the son of G-d; that was made up by followers.
And 50 years later a person who probably barely knew Jesus (b/c of the obvious age difference)...I wouldn't consider that so accurate.
moons160 8 months ago
@moons160 "And Jesus certainly didn't say he was the son of G-d; that was made up by followers." That's patently false. Jesus received worship, pronounced that He was in fact G-d in substance, and operated in authority under that same self-identification. John 8:58 : "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am" This is the same self-identification as in Exodus 3:14.
NilDesperandum777 8 months ago
@NilDesperandum777
At this point it's an opinion whether on not you can trust the new testament.
Lets say he did say he was G-d in substance/son of G-d....
That also goes against every idea in Judaism; G-d has only ever sent angels; never gone into human form.
And acc to what we learn he wouldn't: we are so careful to keep the 10 commandments (Do not have any other G-d's, AKA polytheism) that we don't even say "Modim" twice in prayer (if sme ppl want to emphasize) b/c it might b like bowing -
moons160 8 months ago
@moons160 Not the case at all. The oral tradition is at least dated to 36 AD. The Chester Beatty Library in Dublin possesses conforming text to this effect. Supporting the major doctrines surrounding Christ, His Divinity and the authority His disciples would operate under. With respect to historicity, there actually isn't a more attested text from antiquity that is more authoritative, more "real" than Sacred Scripture. Twenty-four thousand or so supporting texts. Astounding evidence really.
NilDesperandum777 8 months ago
@moons160 I'd actually point you to Sir Simon Greenleaf. An Atheist of strong conviction who also happened to pen the standard of what constitutes evidence at Harvard Law School, and is still taught and deferred to today. But in the exercise of attempting to disprove the Gospels he found the evidence overwhelmingly persuasive. To the point that he authored The Testimony of The Evangelists presenting said evidence.
NilDesperandum777 8 months ago
@NilDesperandum777
like bowing to 2 different G-d's.
If that's how careful G-d wants us to be in prayer, he would not send his son who is himself and they are all one (whatever it means) as it may very easily seem like polytheism or even hint towards it. (In fact, if a Jew is forced to convert to Islam/Christianity, he must die rather than convert to Christianity b/c it borders idolatry, and acc to some is allowed to convert to Islam (very clearly 1 G-d).
moons160 8 months ago
@moons160 Well, here's a question I would greatly appreciate your candor on: Is there a word in Hebrew that means "one" but not in a strictly singular sense, but one in which, multiplicity is uniform in unity?
NilDesperandum777 8 months ago
@Rofamily6
In any case, however accurate you claim the records to be, it doesn't change the fact that the formation of Christianity goes against everything G-d ever told the Jewish people; namely, that the Torah would never change (Toratchem Leolam) and that G-d would never leave the Jews. And the Jews dn't believe in hell, and all of a sudden christians do? And if Jews dn't change their religion on the word of 1 man we all go to hell? Even if we were following the right G-d?
Ridiculous.
moons160 8 months ago
@moons160 So this begs the question, has the Torah been revealed further by Jewish scholars since 33 AD? If the answer is "yes" then your definition of "change" may be lacking...Is that fair? I also don't believe your apprehension concerning the soul's final destination is correct. There have been theological errors committed by people Christ would never endorse in the past, but within The Church, the truth of Christ's love has always found a way to endure. Perhaps closer examination is needed.
NilDesperandum777 8 months ago
@NilDesperandum777
Ah, but what is defined as Torah?
Torah consists of everything we have. We got the writen Torah, as well as the ORAL torah at Har Sinai (which is the explanation of the Torah) and scholars don't change anything, simply interpret the Torah which contains so many life lessons and guidelines.
Creating a new book which G-d didn't give to us, however, is not acceptable at all. G-d would never do such a thing (cont)
moons160 8 months ago
@moons160 Funny enough, the Jewish Sacred Tradition sounds very very familiar. Catholic Sacred Tradition (Including Orthodox obviously) holds the same approach concerning the deposit of faith as being more than simply written Sacred Scripture.. But what the NT does, does not conflict with the OT. It is supplemental and complimentary. It should be noted as well that "The Bible" is merely a record of accounts, in letters and in various books. Itself is a collection of books.
NilDesperandum777 8 months ago
@NilDesperandum777
to tell one person about a new path and expect everyone to follow. He would appear to every Jew just like he did at Har Sinai.
moons160 8 months ago
@moons160 Why would He though? in Genesis 18, He isn't as He was revealed there correct? So what leads you to believe that G-d would have to appear one way or another, apart from a specific promise?
NilDesperandum777 8 months ago
@moons160 "G-d would never leave the Jews" YHVH will never leave the Jews. He promised this to Abram (soon to be Abraham) and then to Joshua and that promise was for the Am Yisrael! You are completely right. He is faithful.
Follow your God, He promises that if you seek Him with all your heart you will find Him. Col Ha Cavod!
Your Messiah is coming and has come.
Rofamily6 8 months ago
I guess I would like to ask what you are trying to imply? It makes no difference to me, but I am curious...
Rofamily6 8 months ago
@moons160
First, your using capital characters weakens your point alot, there is never a need to yell or stress your words if your making any sense.
Second " expect a whole nation to convert on the word of 1 man" you got me laugh there. Comparing 23% of the global population, 1.57 billion people, 50 countries to the few million Israeli? let along the fact that you can hardly call a group of people who decided to build their lives on the pain and killing of others a nation!
azziza1111 8 months ago
@azziza1111
First, I find often people tend to like "skipping over" certain parts, so I do find it's necessary to stress.
2nd, wasn't yelling. We are sending messages online, not talking over the phone.
3rd, b/c ur religion is big doesn't mean it's right. Christianity has 2 billion- does that mean you're wrong?
4th, yea, you shouldn't rlly call arabs a nation in that case.
moons160 8 months ago
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azziza1111 8 months ago
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azziza1111 8 months ago
@azziza1111
And Jews don't believe in hell, btw,
and suddenly we are supposed to?
G-d would not tell us that the next phophet to come will be to tell us the messiah is coming, and then send muhammed b/c he left the Jews.
Completely ridiculous and goes against everything in Jewish history and everyone Hashem has told us.
moons160 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@moons160 Third you said Islam was clearly false, I expected a convincing evidence based on logic, instead you came up with some quotes of what you call Turah. I belive in Turah, but the real one, not the modified version. You wanna talk about historically accurate, look at Quraan and how it remianed exactly the same along the years and all over the world?
azziza1111 8 months ago
@azziza1111
Logic:
G-d gave 3 million Jews the Torah (you agree?), It says in the Torah G-d will never leave the Jewish people and the Torah will never change, Islam- based on Judaism- says Jews are doing the wrong thing so G-d left them.
Another argument: Jews don't believe in hell - don't force ppl to convert, Islam comes along- believes in hell and forces people to convert (yes it did).
Man made religion.
moons160 8 months ago
@azziza1111
And a prophet wouldn't just come and tell the Jews that they are being deserted for good, and should convert to another religion.
That's idiotic.
moons160 8 months ago
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@moons160 Convert on the word of one man?? seriously?? I thought propher Musa too was one man? where is the argument here?
Lastly,y killing and terrorising innoscents daily, t& aking cover of religion for personal and political profits are enough reason to burn in hell, I wouldnt worry about it.
azziza1111 8 months ago
@azziza1111
Terrible, terrible argument.
G-d appeared to ALL 3 million Jews at Har Sinai, not just to Moshe (and G-d performed many miracles for them at the time).
Yea, so I get muslims should really watch out.
moons160 8 months ago