@Blunic Wrong about Christianity helping to shape western morality. If evil is something that is not inherent to religion, as you claim, then it is the same with morality. From an evolutionary standpoint, we as a species developed a sense to protect our children so that our genes would survive from generation to generation. If that weren't so, then mankind wouldn't have been around long enough for you to make the specious claim that Christianity helped shape western morality.
Both really bright people. Ideological systems are easily included as part of what it means to be a human creature. Drawing a polarity between Atheism and Religion seems rather futile considering this context, because practically speaking, both have impacted humanity in negative and positive ways.
@Blunic Ideology yes, system of thought no. A skeptical empiricist is always ready to change his mind when evidence proves him wrong. Ideologues (religious or secular), when confronted with contrary evidence, have to resort to force (bullying, emotional blackmail, violence) because ultimately it is all they have. Hitchens is not just anti-religious, he is anti-ideological and anti-dogmatic - and infuriatingly difficult to prove wrong. Hedges is a softer touch.
"The map is not the territory: The Future is not the Past," first, "Don't believe totally in anybody's BS (belief system)," and the second commandment is like unto the first, "Don't believe totally in your own BS." Because, after all, when you begin to believe in your own BS, you enter the state that I call self-hypnotic, ideational trance, and pretty soon you've got a headful of self-hypnotic ideational trance, or shit." Robert Anton Wlson
@Blunic what the fuck are you talking about? christianity has helped? the founding fathers' enemies were mainly christians- and the fouding fathers were secularists, most of them were secular humanists (non-theists). christianity has destroyed the west for the last 2000 years like the two other monotheisms did with other cultures( persia, arabia). religion is evil because it is lie. and religitards don't do it in the name of religion, they do it cause it is direct command(circumcision)
AS FOR HUMAN. GO TO BLACK'S LAWS DICTIONARY , TYPE IN HUMAN BEING IS A MONSTER, AND WE WILL SEE THE DEFINITION OF HUMAN, WHICH IS (MONSTER). SO THE PROBLEM IS IN THE MONSTER MINDS OF HUMANS. THE HUMAN BEING ONLY CHARACTERISTICS ARE, KILL, STEAL, AND DESTROY, ANTI-NATURE, ANTI-LIFE, ANTI-REAL TRUTH/REALITY, WORKERS OF EVIL INIQUITIES. 99. PERCENT OF THE WORLD MIND-SET IS OUT OF TOUCH WITH TRUE REALITY, AND THE ONE PERCENT IS FASTLY ERODING INTO THE 99.9 PERCENT, FROM GED'S TO PHD'S.
AS FOR HUMAN. GO TO BLACK'S LAWS DICTIONARY , TYPE IN HUMAN BEING IS A MONSTER, AND WE WILL SEE THE DEFINITION OF HUMAN, WHICH IS (MONSTER). SO THE PROBLEM IS IN THE MONSTER MINDS OF HUMANS. THE HUMAN BEING ONLY CHARACTERISTICS ARE, KILL, STEAL, AND DESTROY, ANTI-NATURE, ANTI-LIFE, ANTI-REAL TRUTH/REALITY, WORKERS OF EVIL INIQUITIES. 99. PERCENT OF THE WORLD MIND-SET IS OUT OF TOUCH WITH TRUE REALITY, AND THE ONE PERCENT IS FASTLY ERODING INTO THE 99.9 PERCENT, FROM GED'S TO PHD'S.
SPEAKER SAID, THE PROBLEM IS IN THE HUMAN HEART. IT REALLY IRKS ME WHEN I HEAR STATEMENTS LIKE THAT COMING FROM WHAT SUPPOSE TO BE INTELLIGENT BEING. THE CORRECT IS, THE PROBLEM IS IN THE HUMAN MIND-SET. THE MIND IS WHAT DOES ALL THE THINKING, NOT THE HEART. TAKE THE HEART OUT OF A PERSON FOR ANY LENGTH OF TIME AND WHAT WE WILL SEE IS THE MIND IS DOING THE THINKING STILL WHILE THE HEART IS OUT OF THE BODY DAH.
Hedges is always so good, it's like he's from a different planet..Hitchens is (was) thoughtful, but he should have spent a night in a haunted house or poltergeist-infested dwelling if he wanted first-hand knowledge, not just his own and others' materialistic-establishment opines, and desire to sell books..
@Blunic your problem is you don't fully understand what religion is. it's not just any ideology or system of thought, it's one which is based on human behavior such as worship, faith and willful ignorance, which new atheism views as detrimental.
what you should be focusing your argument on how those qualities are not evil, not whether they are inherent to religion, because they obviously are.
Hedges is missing the point here; Hitchens was speaking about how religion; as the collections of superstition and magical thinking that have guided most people's lives is man-made, not divinely made, hence the problems, evils and ignorance caused by religions are reflective of the problems, evils and ignorance of the human heart. Worshipping the human-made as divine and infallible is self-deceptive and morally wrong.
@Glomerol So its OK to fool yourself as long as it makes you feel better? That's not a philosophy on which I want to base my life, thankyou. I suppose others do though - and I don't wish them ill - although I think lying to yourself is wrong. As Christians say - love the sinner, but hate the sin. I don't want to throw the baby of Christian philosophy out with the superstitious bathwater.
There are people out there who are in denial over their own capacity for evil and they'd rather shoot the messenger. This is why Chris Hedges is so unpopular. If a lie or a fairytale pushes us away from evil and towards good, why not keep it? Religion has been, and needs to be, harnessed to motivate people to do good. There is, of course, secular morality, but why just work with one tool when you can use different tools for different circumstances?
that's why the pagan indifference is the best attitude. pagan practices don't revolve around any beliefs in their gods, contrary to popular opinion. there are pagans who believe that their gods exist. there are pagans who don't believe their gods exist. typical pagan attitude: i take part in the rituals regardless of whether the gods exist or not, because these are the traditions of my ancestors. I don't need a REASON to do these practices nor do I need a reason or purpose to exist.
The atheists aren't winning and the theists aren't winning. Nihilism is what is winning. Good luck trying to create your own values from scratch people. It's not like they mean anything just because you say that they do.
Murderers, torturers, et al, could also wrap themselves up in the cloak of atheism. I would say that an aspect of the problem is religion, but more truthfully, it does indeed exist in the human heart. I appreciate Hedges for being just that much more honest than Hitchens.
@Blunic although perhaps the apologists today may resemble liberalism in rhetoric, I guess jesus didn't have great things to say about the rich but I have yet to see a humanistic piece on children. Still a problem worldwide. the us still considers kids private property, look it up because religous conservatives the US (and somalia) haven't signed a UN charter on human rights. religion I see (amongst other things as well) an impediment to progress and moral reformation to society. The US wouldn'
@Blunic at a young age or else 'they're burn in hell' plants the seed for authoritarianism. THE TEXTS THEMSELVES ARE FUCKED UP, marx nowhere advocated anything near a stalinist regime. but yes I'll say with isms you'll always find yourselves in trouble with the 'true believer'.
@Blunic what the fuck? I honestly can tell whether or not you're serious. READ THE TEXTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Is stoning disobedient children in the towns-square after they don't listen to you somehow "treating them well"? there's part of the bible which condone cannibalism of your family... No it has not shaped liberalism... Augustine wouldn't agree...
Furthermore having texts with those horrid excuses for morality which are repressive which you have a kid follow
@Blunic And FYI Hedges is not anti-atheism. He merely critiqued "New Atheism" for what he perceives is an intolerant streak that he feels can be rivaled by Right Wing religious fundamentalism. I have to agree. But I also agree with Hedges conclusion that New Atheism is not nearly as dangerous to Democracy as the forces of Christofascism.
@StrangeIsMyWorld So you think atheism - fuck "New Atheism" since there is nothing new about it - is a threat to Democracy? I would like to see you make one point supporting that idea. A single rational point.
@wilkja02 One point: the prejudicial attitude towards religious people, treating them as inferior or even mortally dangerous to society (enabling terrorists). Wouldn't you think that might lead to legislation to outlaw religion, if it's really that dangerous?
I was wondering, why, if the problem is not religion, do religious tend to be more belligerent, conservative, and narrow-minded, especially in middle class America? Whereas atheists are dedicated to humanist values for their own sake?
@Blunic Yup, could not agree more, and Id identify myself as Agnostic so I have no stake in the matter. But, Hitchens is some kind of sleazy eugenicist
@Blunic Yup, could not agree morem, and Id identify myself as Agnostic so I have no stake in the matter. But, Hitchens is some kind of sleazy eugenicist
Hitchens point might be more persuasive if he made it about ideology rather than religion alone. On the other hand, it's not much of a defense of religion to say, as Heges in effect is saying, that at least it's no worse than Stalinism or Fascism...
The cure to religious extremism is no religion! Religion is all about celebrating guilt and repression. Where there is human deprivation, religion is there faithfully there holding its hand. Societies with less religion do much better!
Hedges proves how you can be factually right and still be so wrong! The problem IS human capacity for evil, as he points out. But religion is the biggest impediment in dealing with that evil. While there exist other factors, religion today is the biggest enabler of human atrocities.
That's probably one of the stupidest lines I've heard. You must be a sociopath if you think Chris Hedges point here, about the universal capacity of man for moral evil and the endless possibility of that evil to be projected into ideologies and instiutions, makes him a sentimental pussy. What is so subjective about this?
Hedges is a policor pussy that gets his paycheck by hanging around religious fascists. All his points are offtopic, irrelevant and a silly attempt at characterassassination on Harris.
He deliberately misses the point so he can play the offendedcard.
I guess you're the same
We need people like Harris, not Hedges. Hedges and his ilk are the reason why the west has been tolerating islamarama way too much and long.
That being said I think Hedges and Hitches makes some good points. Hitchens says that religion was made by evil men so religion is the problem of society. Hedges says that the problem is not religion it is our evil impulses (the capacity for atrocities, etc.) But if, according to Hitchens, religion was made by evil men in the first place then he is tacitly admitting that the root of all problems is human. 'Bad religion' is merely a reflection of 'bad people' which is a reflection of bad hearts
"Religion" is not NECESSARILY the problem. You would have to have a scholarly understanding of each religion to deduce that about each one. Certain manifestation of "religion", particularly the anti-science violent type are problems. However, these in turn are manifestation of a HUMAN CONDITION, such as arrogance and self absorption, which is relevant to ALL people. From a general perspective, religion is the art and teaching of awakening from the illusion of such human conditions.
I don't like talking about "religion" from a general perspective because that assumes that all religions are exactly the same. It is ironic to see atheists use that general term to form a coherent argument against individual religions simply because it contradicts the rules of objectivity. If you want to make a case against a religion, then learn it inside out. The laziness or unwillingness only reflects your own bias in the first place, which has no place in sincerity.
@shadowkill546 Atheist don't have to because religious people, while following their own religion, do not learn other religions "inside out" before claiming a certain religion.
Although Hedges political arguments are great, his defense of religion is shallow. and misdirecting. True, problem is in the human character itself and its capacity for evil, however, that doesn't vindicate the problems with organized religion. Man needs to look elsewhere for ending the evil in his heart , however, it is not science either. It is time we transcend the problems with organized religion and the problems of a science dominant existential view.
Religion is not the root of the problem, but it is a particularly nasty symptom that we need to get rid of immediately. It reflects the worst aspects of our nature.
Christopher Hedges just isn't very intelligent. You can't have religion without religious fundamentalism. The koran/bible are horrible books that produce horrible people. Hedges' self-loathing and self-pity wear thin quickly.
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So, Hedges goes on for a lengthy period about how the problem is "not religion, but the human capacity for evil". Fair point (although we could all make the point that religion does not dissaude, and often encourages acts of "evil"). He then goes on to claim that the problem is most certainly secularism, displaying an astounding tendency towards self-contradiction. This man is not an esteemed journalist, he is a sensationalist, shape-shifting prick.
You make a good point.My point in return is...whether you believe in hell or not,if it exists...you are going there if you don't acknowledge the fact that you have a Heavenly father who loves you. I am doing my part in telling you that you really don't know what you are missing by rejecting God. I have miraculously been healed from a near fatal accident and I literally was saved on my deathbed. I FELT something catch me in mid air as I was falling.
@somakr This is the lack of nuance hedges is talking about with new atheists. The statement you reference to you has no meaning, because your life has very little meaning in the realm of compassion, non rational ideas like love and friendship. You just want to be "right" to "know" the most, thats your little game.
UHA! I rest my case... A statement is meaningless to me –and to everyone else- because IT IS MEANINGLESS by its own merits, i.e. has contradictory, vague, etc fallacious dispositions. But such linguistic details for all religious SUPERS cuts no ice since THEIR OWN ‘HOLY’ BOOKS HAVE NOTHING BUT CONTRADICTORY & SELFCONTRADICTORY STATEMENTS... Hence their holiness state!
@somakr I'm sure you know he's talking about emotions, psyche, call it what you will, and "heart" is taken as poetic, unless you think being poetic is too religious.
@cleanhomer Obviously you don’t have any clue for the cognitive transition of humans for the so called ‘from Mythos to Logos’ state development! Anything in our speech/concepts which refers to such kind of magical-thinking retrogression ought to be treated as a sign of cortical degeneration nevertheless and with sarcastic humor at best. But don’t take my word for it: just read what the SuperTrancend-cuckoo wrote to me!
@somakr So, you're saying being poetic or artistic is psychotic or something? BTW, I don't know how you're going to really teach me something, or encourage me to learn more about something, if you're going to be rude about it. If all you want to do is be rude, you can do so; you have to impress me with your big words.
@cleanhomer Are you aware of the “discussion is deception” maxim and/or the ‘crying game’/“appeal to emotion” fallacious statements? Because right now that’s exactly what u r engaging with instead of e.g. the implications of the cognitive development of humankind from 1100cc to up until ~1400cc brain, or even the negative correlation between fertility and intelligence –against ALL religious ‘holy’ and ‘artistic’ books! If nowadays art is anti-scientific then for sure it’s just PSYCHOTIC...
Hitchens is clearly a myopic moron, as are all these new age secular fundamentalists. How egotistic one must be to actually declare if God does or does not exist, human narcissism to the highest degree, an inability to discern that we have neither the technological advancement nor intellectual acumen to make such incredulous claims. Humility is something both these men must observe. P.S. The Hitchens 'fan club' should be ashamed of itself.
@Foxaiis We've searched the universe from the now back to the cosmic microwave background. From the quark world to the largest galaxy clusters. So far in no part of the universe we have found any evidence for God or the need for God to "explain" anything. The whole thing works without that hypothesis.
On the basis of that evidence the concept of "God" has to be ranked with pink unicorns and dragons in the garage. An idea that merits no credibility at all.
@TomFynn The absence of prove is not necessarily the prove of absence. And i'm not referring to god in the traditional sense, but rather a creator or architect beyond human perspicacity. Your repudiation is rudimentary and constrained by ego, neither can you deny the possibility of a creator or absence of an architect nor can I prove it, this argument in itself is inane and fatuous, just like you and I, just like Hedges and Hitchens.
@Foxaiis If it's beyond human perspicacity the why the fuck make the claim in the first place? What's the point of a question you frame in a way so you cannot possibly have answer?
Yes, I could be wrong about God. I could also be wrong about pink unicorns and the like. I simply don't bother with wasting my time on that possibility. If you want any cred for the proposition of "God" bring some hard evidence. And not just the usual god-of-the gaps arguments.
@TomFynn "Whats the point of a question you frame in a way so you cannot possible have an answer?"
I think you probably provided the reason as to why people seek solace in religion in the first place. And I don't have 'hard evidence' to prove God exists for I don't believe in it per se, I'm just not so illogical as to claim it does not exist and if it did exist God that is the likelihood is I would have complete contempt for it. But the matter of the subject is that you cannot deny possbility.
@Foxaiis "The fact that the believer is happier than the unbeliever is no more to the point than the fact that the drunk is happier that the sober." G.B. Shaw. The people who flew those planes into the buildings did so with the serenity of doing their Lord's work.
Yes, keeping an open mind is a good thing. But not so open that our brains fall out.
The concept of God has to be shelved in the box marked "BS".
@TomFynn Ignoring the fact that within your "BS" box nestled beside the god conception should be the official 9/11 story, you cannot possibly equate religion with human baseness. It's just a shawl like nationalism etc worn by the unethical to justify their actions. Religion is what abrogates women's rights?. I don't believe this in fact I think the patriarchal society in the east is just a crude & raw form of our western one. We dictate what women should look like, what clothes they should wear.
@Foxaiis What? Did the perps of 9/11 *not* think God willed it? Did the guy who gunned down that abortion doctor *not* think God willed it? Did the hordes of the Thirty Year War *not* think God willed it? Did the Spaniards who plundered South America *not* think God willed it?
Yes, even we have cultural norms. But we do not throw battery acid in people’s faces for not complying with them and *get away with it*!
@TomFynn & if God is gone something else will be used to justify the unjustifiable. In the early 20th century science was used to invalidate the Jews consequently leading to genocide. The Reich could have easily proclaimed progressive science willed it. Yes religion has been used to warrant mass atrocities but if it was not around something else would have been used as a substitute. And our methods of social conformity are more surreptitious than the Easts, yet still as barbaric.
@Foxaiis Correction: In the 20th century pseudo-science was used to justify atrocities. The Reich proclaimed the Führer willed it. Proclaiming things in the name of some infallible leader with access to “higher” knowledge is a tried and tested method…
If you think our methods are barbaric, you don’t know shit.
@Foxaiis "How egotistic one must be......." We humans made up gods to understand the wild and scary world that we lived in.........when we lived in CAVES! Now that we can understand more things about the world we have no need for these mythologies.......like children leaving childish thinking behind we must leave this childish thought of religion behind us and grow up to look after each other for the sake of looking after each other not because the big daddy in the sky will be cross with us.
Hedges hit the nail right on the head in this video, even if religion was completely abolished mankind would still commit acts of atrocity. A belief or disbelief in God is a moot point, it's existence would not dictate the actions we take. We exist to serve the self, our duty should be to mitigate the damage we do to the world and each other, not argue whether a omnipotent deity exists. All of our hands are dirty, whether we're a theist or not.
@EcologicalFighter it isn't about a belief in god. it's about religion and how it makes good people do bad things. people are generally good, however people are also generally either ignorant or desperate or both and give into religion. religion is intellectually stultifying which is very dangerous for good people who want to do good things. ultimately, the only reason most of our hands would be dirty is because we've soaked(and pruned) them in religion.
@OppressedAtheist The cluelessness is all yours, my friend. What I wrote stands.
Chris Hedges is perhaps America's most trenchant and engaged present-day political and cultural observer. In contrast, Hitchens, over the past decade, has devolved into a sorry apologist for the arrogant and imperialist adventures of an uber-right wing government which has rained death and destruction on the peoples of the Mid East and Central Asia. Hitchens looks like a petulant buffoon in this "debate."
@OppressedAtheist "Hedges is "waaaay" out of his league intellectually against Hitchens."
A completely idiotic statement. In fact, Hedges showed Hitchens how intellectually incomplete his arguments truly are. In his rebuttal to Hitchens, Hedges brings to bear a far greater wealth of learning and appreciation, if not for a belief in God, at the least, for the unchanging moral and ethical questions which initially gave birth to religions as institutions.
To believe "the white that I see is black [Loyola]" is YOUR human right; to teach a child things are so by virtue of their merely believing them to be so is a violation of THEIR human rights and ultimately MINE. The eye of faith can see almost anything it wants to see - except for things as they really are. This manner of 'thinking' is the single greatest impediment to finding any incentive for creating a durable survival for our species today.
Hitchens' own brand of Jihad against the Middle East undercuts the notion that he is a torchbearer of reason. Hedges offers a profoundly more searching analysis of geopolitics than this vile Neocon catamite. There is not much analytical depth to Hitchens beyond a schoolboy delight in recycling the slogan God is Dead. Like the atheist thinkers before him on the order of Russell and Sartre, Hedges fights both clericalism and militarism. There is vastly more profundity in his philosophical view.
If you remove religion bad people still exist and find excuses to make there wicked deeds seem right. But they can't come up with the excuse that they have the absolute truth and that they don't have to listen to other people or it is blasphemy to criticize them. I think that is quite a leap forward.
@Math2Anton Noting is wrong with claiming absolute truth..people are entitled to believe what they want..but what would be a leap forward would be if there was a religion or world-view that forbade violence done in its name. You know sort of love your enemies and do unto others...
@rcbodle: Agree! Humans can ruin anything! If religion was absent, they would still ruin everything and commit mass murders and inquisitions on each other.
@rcbodle The point is that religion puts an all knowing god on their side when they do that, which makes those decisions agreeable to the religiously gullible, therefore its an aid in deceiving people. Just because people do bad things anyway doesnt mean theres nothing wrong with something that helps take advantage of peoples moral weakness & lack of understanding of people that think or live differently than they do.
@gta747 So given your reasoning the atheist who thinks that because there is no ultimate accountability he can rip people off, maybe even kill people for his advantage if he gets away with it, is somehow "better" than the religious nut who lives sacrificially because his make believe God told him to. At least the Atheist is living in light of the real truth right? Btw everyone has a God or world perception to which they live in accord, even the atheist.
@rcbodle The accountability lies in the people he does wrong to, and not being able to hide behind his belief system, like you said, humans will always do wrong, at least an atheist cant hide behind religious organizations and other peoples religious gullibility.
@gta747 Your missing the point. The atheist is free to think that he might not be ultimately held accountable. He can then rationalize any activity for whatever cause he likes. People are great at that ! Look at some of the mass murderers in History.
Btw I do agree with you about blindly following religion. People who blindly follow any belief system, let alone one that condones violence are stupid and wrong.
But what if there is a God... who is good , chuck the baby with the bathwater?
@rcbodle If there were a god, it would be one that chucks the baby with the bathwater on its own, that much is obvious. It doesnt sound like a "good" god to me.
@gta747 Well I suppose we could of been created like robots, that would of been safe...but maybe we were created with free will and stuffed up. world sure looks that way to me. Stupid people doing their own selfish things. Dont think it follows that if this is the case God doesnt care.
How would that apply to dying during childbirth? Decaying slowly from flesh eating diseases or drowning in a flood? We suffer from our environment and genes far more than each other. We could have freewill without misery or unmeetable standards if the alleged god was just and did care.
@Chinomareno A good point. The book of Genesis provides an answers to your question from the Christian perspective. It tells us that the world originally was without defect when man was in relationaship with their creator...but its seems nature/the universe is somehow tied to man/his rebellion. I suppose the biblical analogy is being caste out of the Garden. When we lived in perfect harmony with God..so did nature/the universe.
@rcbodle what does creating something to have free will have to do with caring about it? we wouldnt care that we didnt have free will if we had no concept of it or were just robots, so nothing non-caring wouldv been done
@gta747 So given your argument if you had a child you would prefer it lobotomised/incapable of making independant judgements. ..that way it would be less likely to make bad decisions ?
Love/caring has everything to do with it. I want the best for my child in that it be capable to experience the greatest of all things.
@rcbodle if it was impossible for it to make a bad decision if it had no free will then yea, that would avoid a lot of potential problems, if i were god id make it able to experience the greatest of things also, that doesnt require free will, id have to give them free will to be able to decide independently of me what the greatest things are in the first place
if i were god i wouldnt systematically screw my creation out of happiness, thats not loving in my opinion
@gta747 Having relationship with a loving God is the greatest possible happiness.....even in spite of the fact
that the worlds a tough place, life stinks sometimes. Cocooning someone from hardship, their mistakes isnt always the best option. What if God wants us to mature. Maybe theres a greater good ?
Get rid of religion and wooshka...on the way to utopia ? incredibly naive position and historically ignorant. Hedges spot on. The problem is with the human condition and our ability to bastardize anything...even the good.
Hedges is missing the point when he says dictators will wrap themselves in the cloak of something else besides religion. The point is religion is tailor made to do that exact thing : DICTATE. Thats why its always used!! Use your brain. Yes dictators will try to use something else to dominate, but religious thinking makes it so easy for them, it will become harder for them to do without it.
@shortfuse41 not true. after all, once religion is eradicated -in a new-atheist model- then our leaders will make decisions and toy with our lives the same way they do now however in the guise of "science".
either way...I think the problems we face now are due to a system obsessed with greed, power, and surveillance. Religion or non-religious codes of ethics don't really play much into the New World Order ( in my opinion) merely the banks, rather.
@TheRealPDizzle so what ive said about our government and our elite being obsessed with greed, surveillence etc, has some merit to this whole idea that "we will find some other way to justify evil.
" because, right now we live in a society/culture that fixates on the celebrity-status. we (the masses) want to be rich, sexy, powerful, loved by everyone, because that is the American dream. and our unchecked capitalistic society justifies going to war, unconstitutional spying, etc it is our religion
@shortfuse41 also, this focus on religion as a tool for conquest originates not from the creation of religion as the tool, but using an already existing system -which so many followed to obtain moral stability- to create an excuse for any immoral behavior. I.E. All these Christians believe in God and believe that if they follow the word of God, then they will become better people. So we (the evil government) say "if we destroy this country or this religion, god will favor us and you will advance
@shortfuse41 so therefore, science too, can be used the same way. "in the name of science, we believe that having this race on the planet, or if this race mingles with ours, we will be inefficient; so we must make it our military aim to eradicate this race and make it unlawful to breed with any of the bad race." chris hedges is merely saying that by disconnecting human violence and cruelty from a human condition, we allow ourselves to find any means to perpetuate evil under any guise or excuse
Hedges is a more complete thinker than Hitchens. The fact that Hitchens is swinging his foot while Hedges responds to Hitchens' comments is unignorable body language. What it says is "I'm not really in this guy's league when it comes to intellectual discourse as I relie mostly on the my upper-crust British accent for people to take me seriously. I wish he'd stop talking so that I can get back to being the center of attention."
Hitchens has an interesting and engaging personality, but at the same time his dicourse is often a bit on the shallow side, or one-sided. I am an atheist, but cannot always agree withs Hitchens' generalizations and simplifications when it comes to the whole Muslim world, for example (his highly subdued criticisms of Israel is very disappointing as well). It is likely that he'll be remembered as an interesting commentator and interlocutor, and not as a deep thinker and/or a profound philosopher.
Hedges is a real journalist, Hitchens is an opportunist/celebrity. Hitchens memoir is a good work though, I'll admit he has amazing descriptive ability.
The reply by Hedges implies religion is useless, but we should keep it and focus on curing human evil instead. It would be like saying that because homeopathy is useless and does nothing, we should keep it and not heavily criticize it or attack it, because at least homeopathy does some good for many people. If this is the case, why don't we also justify all sorts of other things too - if believing in the tooth fairy helps adults, should we not encourage that false b.s. to be believed?
This debate will go in circles and circles.I f a higher lets call it spirit entity god or higher intelligence excist and created us.Stop blaming the higher spirit for our mistakes.Nobody demands anything of us its what the other person is saying the fan club.
I wonder does Hitchens ever these debates with his hardcore religious brother Peter. The guy has unresolved issues that have nothing to do with religion, his mother killed herself in 1973, in a suicide pact with her lover, a former clergyman.
It's human nature. Intraspecific competition for resources - and you really do not need more than that. You can remove the religious factor of a genocide but not the genocide >:)
@aitch3 He looks great! :-D!!! he is growing his hair back. he also has a beard. thinner also. He has a debate in Feb 2011 called "Life After Death" with Wolfe, Harris...and forgot the other guys name. put on my Jewish University (red curtain in background).
@WhiteLakeDan I like your comment, but I have to tell you that the funny last statement is what leaves you open! if it is the "fan club" you have an issue with, by that logic, I would be correct as a Black man, to hate all whites in spite of the fact that some whites have risked and given their lives for blacks. Since I am not sure what you will comment when humor is not the goal, I will wait to see where you stand in regard to my response.
@WhiteLakeDan haha good point, but i do have a problem with "god" killing innocent woman and children by teh thousands over and over again! (one example:noahs arc)
Oh god, Hedges is so thick.
WolfgangBrozart 2 days ago
Didn't Hitchens support the Iraq war?
enticed2zeitgeist 1 week ago
@Blunic Wrong about Christianity helping to shape western morality. If evil is something that is not inherent to religion, as you claim, then it is the same with morality. From an evolutionary standpoint, we as a species developed a sense to protect our children so that our genes would survive from generation to generation. If that weren't so, then mankind wouldn't have been around long enough for you to make the specious claim that Christianity helped shape western morality.
MichaelTheOliver 1 week ago
Both really bright people. Ideological systems are easily included as part of what it means to be a human creature. Drawing a polarity between Atheism and Religion seems rather futile considering this context, because practically speaking, both have impacted humanity in negative and positive ways.
talgren 2 weeks ago
@Blunic Ideology yes, system of thought no. A skeptical empiricist is always ready to change his mind when evidence proves him wrong. Ideologues (religious or secular), when confronted with contrary evidence, have to resort to force (bullying, emotional blackmail, violence) because ultimately it is all they have. Hitchens is not just anti-religious, he is anti-ideological and anti-dogmatic - and infuriatingly difficult to prove wrong. Hedges is a softer touch.
gspaulsson 3 weeks ago
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"The map is not the territory: The Future is not the Past," first, "Don't believe totally in anybody's BS (belief system)," and the second commandment is like unto the first, "Don't believe totally in your own BS." Because, after all, when you begin to believe in your own BS, you enter the state that I call self-hypnotic, ideational trance, and pretty soon you've got a headful of self-hypnotic ideational trance, or shit." Robert Anton Wlson
elektronati 3 weeks ago
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elektronati 3 weeks ago
Thumbs up for Hedges!
cleanhomer 3 weeks ago
@Blunic what the fuck are you talking about? christianity has helped? the founding fathers' enemies were mainly christians- and the fouding fathers were secularists, most of them were secular humanists (non-theists). christianity has destroyed the west for the last 2000 years like the two other monotheisms did with other cultures( persia, arabia). religion is evil because it is lie. and religitards don't do it in the name of religion, they do it cause it is direct command(circumcision)
venustasveritatis 3 weeks ago
he looks drunk. and sounds like a fundamentalist, like the Taliban he hates.
rodeo179 3 weeks ago
Chris Hedges is considered a "far-left loon" while Michele Bachmann and Ann Coulter are considered "great thinkers of their time."
PompousPreacher 3 weeks ago
AS FOR HUMAN. GO TO BLACK'S LAWS DICTIONARY , TYPE IN HUMAN BEING IS A MONSTER, AND WE WILL SEE THE DEFINITION OF HUMAN, WHICH IS (MONSTER). SO THE PROBLEM IS IN THE MONSTER MINDS OF HUMANS. THE HUMAN BEING ONLY CHARACTERISTICS ARE, KILL, STEAL, AND DESTROY, ANTI-NATURE, ANTI-LIFE, ANTI-REAL TRUTH/REALITY, WORKERS OF EVIL INIQUITIES. 99. PERCENT OF THE WORLD MIND-SET IS OUT OF TOUCH WITH TRUE REALITY, AND THE ONE PERCENT IS FASTLY ERODING INTO THE 99.9 PERCENT, FROM GED'S TO PHD'S.
GoddessIsIs999 1 month ago
@GoddessIsIs999 Please don't type in caps.
jerjern 4 weeks ago
AS FOR HUMAN. GO TO BLACK'S LAWS DICTIONARY , TYPE IN HUMAN BEING IS A MONSTER, AND WE WILL SEE THE DEFINITION OF HUMAN, WHICH IS (MONSTER). SO THE PROBLEM IS IN THE MONSTER MINDS OF HUMANS. THE HUMAN BEING ONLY CHARACTERISTICS ARE, KILL, STEAL, AND DESTROY, ANTI-NATURE, ANTI-LIFE, ANTI-REAL TRUTH/REALITY, WORKERS OF EVIL INIQUITIES. 99. PERCENT OF THE WORLD MIND-SET IS OUT OF TOUCH WITH TRUE REALITY, AND THE ONE PERCENT IS FASTLY ERODING INTO THE 99.9 PERCENT, FROM GED'S TO PHD'S.
GoddessIsIs999 1 month ago
SPEAKER SAID, THE PROBLEM IS IN THE HUMAN HEART. IT REALLY IRKS ME WHEN I HEAR STATEMENTS LIKE THAT COMING FROM WHAT SUPPOSE TO BE INTELLIGENT BEING. THE CORRECT IS, THE PROBLEM IS IN THE HUMAN MIND-SET. THE MIND IS WHAT DOES ALL THE THINKING, NOT THE HEART. TAKE THE HEART OUT OF A PERSON FOR ANY LENGTH OF TIME AND WHAT WE WILL SEE IS THE MIND IS DOING THE THINKING STILL WHILE THE HEART IS OUT OF THE BODY DAH.
GoddessIsIs999 1 month ago
Hedges is always so good, it's like he's from a different planet..Hitchens is (was) thoughtful, but he should have spent a night in a haunted house or poltergeist-infested dwelling if he wanted first-hand knowledge, not just his own and others' materialistic-establishment opines, and desire to sell books..
TwoPointsUp 1 month ago
As you say I can think whatever I want - and if those thoughts include judging others on being deluded - so be it.
9000ck 1 month ago
@Blunic your problem is you don't fully understand what religion is. it's not just any ideology or system of thought, it's one which is based on human behavior such as worship, faith and willful ignorance, which new atheism views as detrimental.
what you should be focusing your argument on how those qualities are not evil, not whether they are inherent to religion, because they obviously are.
zackhanscom 1 month ago
Hedges hits the nail on the head.
One can use any rationalization one wants for their atrocities, but it's them, not their rationalization that is the issue.
Glomerol 1 month ago
Hedges is missing the point here; Hitchens was speaking about how religion; as the collections of superstition and magical thinking that have guided most people's lives is man-made, not divinely made, hence the problems, evils and ignorance caused by religions are reflective of the problems, evils and ignorance of the human heart. Worshipping the human-made as divine and infallible is self-deceptive and morally wrong.
9000ck 1 month ago
@9000ck
You can worship your cat if you want. I don't consider it wrong unless you torture it as part of your worship.
Get a clue folks, it's not that hard.
Glomerol 1 month ago
@Glomerol So its OK to fool yourself as long as it makes you feel better? That's not a philosophy on which I want to base my life, thankyou. I suppose others do though - and I don't wish them ill - although I think lying to yourself is wrong. As Christians say - love the sinner, but hate the sin. I don't want to throw the baby of Christian philosophy out with the superstitious bathwater.
9000ck 1 month ago
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Glomerol 1 month ago
There are people out there who are in denial over their own capacity for evil and they'd rather shoot the messenger. This is why Chris Hedges is so unpopular. If a lie or a fairytale pushes us away from evil and towards good, why not keep it? Religion has been, and needs to be, harnessed to motivate people to do good. There is, of course, secular morality, but why just work with one tool when you can use different tools for different circumstances?
Arxces 2 months ago
that's why the pagan indifference is the best attitude. pagan practices don't revolve around any beliefs in their gods, contrary to popular opinion. there are pagans who believe that their gods exist. there are pagans who don't believe their gods exist. typical pagan attitude: i take part in the rituals regardless of whether the gods exist or not, because these are the traditions of my ancestors. I don't need a REASON to do these practices nor do I need a reason or purpose to exist.
arvind13 2 months ago
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being happy is more important than whether X or Y is true of false
arvind13 2 months ago
Sasha Lilley is so fucking pretty.
slckr80s 2 months ago
The atheists aren't winning and the theists aren't winning. Nihilism is what is winning. Good luck trying to create your own values from scratch people. It's not like they mean anything just because you say that they do.
TheDavid2222 2 months ago
Murderers, torturers, et al, could also wrap themselves up in the cloak of atheism. I would say that an aspect of the problem is religion, but more truthfully, it does indeed exist in the human heart. I appreciate Hedges for being just that much more honest than Hitchens.
meghan42 2 months ago
@Blunic be as backwards and fucked up it wasn't for it.
TheEthanwashere 2 months ago
@Blunic although perhaps the apologists today may resemble liberalism in rhetoric, I guess jesus didn't have great things to say about the rich but I have yet to see a humanistic piece on children. Still a problem worldwide. the us still considers kids private property, look it up because religous conservatives the US (and somalia) haven't signed a UN charter on human rights. religion I see (amongst other things as well) an impediment to progress and moral reformation to society. The US wouldn'
TheEthanwashere 2 months ago
@Blunic at a young age or else 'they're burn in hell' plants the seed for authoritarianism. THE TEXTS THEMSELVES ARE FUCKED UP, marx nowhere advocated anything near a stalinist regime. but yes I'll say with isms you'll always find yourselves in trouble with the 'true believer'.
What you said seriously makes NO sense at all
TheEthanwashere 2 months ago
@Blunic what the fuck? I honestly can tell whether or not you're serious. READ THE TEXTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Is stoning disobedient children in the towns-square after they don't listen to you somehow "treating them well"? there's part of the bible which condone cannibalism of your family... No it has not shaped liberalism... Augustine wouldn't agree...
Furthermore having texts with those horrid excuses for morality which are repressive which you have a kid follow
TheEthanwashere 2 months ago
@Blunic And FYI Hedges is not anti-atheism. He merely critiqued "New Atheism" for what he perceives is an intolerant streak that he feels can be rivaled by Right Wing religious fundamentalism. I have to agree. But I also agree with Hedges conclusion that New Atheism is not nearly as dangerous to Democracy as the forces of Christofascism.
StrangeIsMyWorld 2 months ago 2
@StrangeIsMyWorld So you think atheism - fuck "New Atheism" since there is nothing new about it - is a threat to Democracy? I would like to see you make one point supporting that idea. A single rational point.
wilkja02 1 month ago
@wilkja02 One point: the prejudicial attitude towards religious people, treating them as inferior or even mortally dangerous to society (enabling terrorists). Wouldn't you think that might lead to legislation to outlaw religion, if it's really that dangerous?
cleanhomer 3 weeks ago
I was wondering, why, if the problem is not religion, do religious tend to be more belligerent, conservative, and narrow-minded, especially in middle class America? Whereas atheists are dedicated to humanist values for their own sake?
redshark618 2 months ago
@redshark618
Sounds like you just answered your own question; I'd be cautious about confusing correlation with causation.
Glomerol 1 month ago
@Blunic Christian Social Doctrine has formed the backbone of almost every left-wing ideology.
StrangeIsMyWorld 2 months ago
@StrangeIsMyWorld
Methinks you trip over your own apparent "ideology".
Glomerol 1 month ago
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@Blunic Yup, could not agree more, and Id identify myself as Agnostic so I have no stake in the matter. But, Hitchens is some kind of sleazy eugenicist
BornskiAECC 2 months ago
@Blunic Yup, could not agree morem, and Id identify myself as Agnostic so I have no stake in the matter. But, Hitchens is some kind of sleazy eugenicist
BornskiAECC 2 months ago
Hitchens point might be more persuasive if he made it about ideology rather than religion alone. On the other hand, it's not much of a defense of religion to say, as Heges in effect is saying, that at least it's no worse than Stalinism or Fascism...
ahermit 3 months ago
@RokEmSukIt
well said,ive been pretty much saying the same things elsewhere..but could you please tell me why cockburn is a nutcase ?
cheers.
hotstixx 3 months ago
@RokEmSukIt
So i have to agree on all of his views or crap like that? I couldn't care less, i just love how he destroys superstition and religious fascism.
LOL more intellectual Bush, Bush is a fuckin biblemaggot
sonykroket 3 months ago
All you islamic sandniggers can take your shity Quaran/phonebook and SHOVE IT UP YOUR ASS.
Watergun8770 3 months ago
@Watergun8770
Wow, you are one worthless, racist piece of shit.
bigollameo 3 months ago
The Quaran+ My ass crust = Toiletpaper
Watergun8770 3 months ago
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Watergun8770 3 months ago
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FUCK ISLAM!
FUCK ALLAH!
FUCK THE QUARAN!
Mohammed= PEDOPHILE
Watergun8770 3 months ago
@RokEmSukIt
No, he doesn't.
So you admit Hedgens is a lying dipshit? Good, at least we got that covered.
Again, are you a reli-muppet?
sonykroket 3 months ago
The cure to religious extremism is no religion! Religion is all about celebrating guilt and repression. Where there is human deprivation, religion is there faithfully there holding its hand. Societies with less religion do much better!
twistswitch 3 months ago
@RokEmSukIt
Whats amazing about his policor islamdefending bullshit? The weasel misquotes and misrepresents everything his opponents say.
He's a fuckin liar
Are you a reli-muppet?
sonykroket 3 months ago
Hedges proves how you can be factually right and still be so wrong! The problem IS human capacity for evil, as he points out. But religion is the biggest impediment in dealing with that evil. While there exist other factors, religion today is the biggest enabler of human atrocities.
greenjelly01 3 months ago
@Blunic
Hedges is a policor sentimental pussy with a clouded mind because of personal experience, not objective ones.
If you agree with him you're a relimuppet or a policor clownette.
We have too many of those, hence the issue
sonykroket 4 months ago
@sonykroket
That's probably one of the stupidest lines I've heard. You must be a sociopath if you think Chris Hedges point here, about the universal capacity of man for moral evil and the endless possibility of that evil to be projected into ideologies and instiutions, makes him a sentimental pussy. What is so subjective about this?
bigollameo 3 months ago
@bigollameo
Hedges is a policor pussy that gets his paycheck by hanging around religious fascists. All his points are offtopic, irrelevant and a silly attempt at characterassassination on Harris.
He deliberately misses the point so he can play the offendedcard.
I guess you're the same
We need people like Harris, not Hedges. Hedges and his ilk are the reason why the west has been tolerating islamarama way too much and long.
You and he are traitors and cowards
sonykroket 3 months ago
@sonykroket
Yeah, hopefully someone puts a bullet in Harris' head. Yours as well.
bigollameo 3 months ago
@bigollameo
Wow, you really are a fuckin dipshit
sonykroket 3 months ago
HE'S A METH ADICT.
sssssjjjj1 4 months ago
@Blunic
Haha, thats what people always say when they have no good response.
Either that or play the offended-card.
You're so predictable
sonykroket 4 months ago
That being said I think Hedges and Hitches makes some good points. Hitchens says that religion was made by evil men so religion is the problem of society. Hedges says that the problem is not religion it is our evil impulses (the capacity for atrocities, etc.) But if, according to Hitchens, religion was made by evil men in the first place then he is tacitly admitting that the root of all problems is human. 'Bad religion' is merely a reflection of 'bad people' which is a reflection of bad hearts
shadowkill546 4 months ago
"Religion" is not NECESSARILY the problem. You would have to have a scholarly understanding of each religion to deduce that about each one. Certain manifestation of "religion", particularly the anti-science violent type are problems. However, these in turn are manifestation of a HUMAN CONDITION, such as arrogance and self absorption, which is relevant to ALL people. From a general perspective, religion is the art and teaching of awakening from the illusion of such human conditions.
shadowkill546 4 months ago
I don't like talking about "religion" from a general perspective because that assumes that all religions are exactly the same. It is ironic to see atheists use that general term to form a coherent argument against individual religions simply because it contradicts the rules of objectivity. If you want to make a case against a religion, then learn it inside out. The laziness or unwillingness only reflects your own bias in the first place, which has no place in sincerity.
shadowkill546 4 months ago
@shadowkill546 Atheist don't have to because religious people, while following their own religion, do not learn other religions "inside out" before claiming a certain religion.
sablemase 3 months ago
@sablemase
That's right, Atheists don't have to, but do anyways. That goes for both camps, which just proves my point that it's a human condition.
shadowkill546 3 months ago
Although Hedges political arguments are great, his defense of religion is shallow. and misdirecting. True, problem is in the human character itself and its capacity for evil, however, that doesn't vindicate the problems with organized religion. Man needs to look elsewhere for ending the evil in his heart , however, it is not science either. It is time we transcend the problems with organized religion and the problems of a science dominant existential view.
BKKaye 4 months ago 2
@Blunic
Hedges makes BS points. Just because he hung out with some mosquedwellers doesn't mean islam is not a threat.
He's a policor muppet that tries to silence people by accusing them of racism.
Too bad ole Hitch is way too smart for that nonsense
sonykroket 4 months ago
Religion is not the root of the problem, but it is a particularly nasty symptom that we need to get rid of immediately. It reflects the worst aspects of our nature.
ZachRose88 4 months ago 2
@Blunic
You say you're an atheist but you sound like a policor muppet/reli-nugget
sonykroket 4 months ago
@Blunic
Whats complex about religion being a fascist cancer of mankind?
sonykroket 4 months ago
Yoyo, the Hitchslap inda house!
Start running, reli-muppets/policor douchebags, he's hungy
sonykroket 4 months ago
Christopher Hedges just isn't very intelligent. You can't have religion without religious fundamentalism. The koran/bible are horrible books that produce horrible people. Hedges' self-loathing and self-pity wear thin quickly.
TheTorJohnson 5 months ago
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TheServiceWeb 5 months ago
So, Hedges goes on for a lengthy period about how the problem is "not religion, but the human capacity for evil". Fair point (although we could all make the point that religion does not dissaude, and often encourages acts of "evil"). He then goes on to claim that the problem is most certainly secularism, displaying an astounding tendency towards self-contradiction. This man is not an esteemed journalist, he is a sensationalist, shape-shifting prick.
Fuck him.
davethehostage 5 months ago
Thank you for posting this, KPFAradio.
writersblock26 5 months ago
Thank you for posting this, KPFARadio.
writersblock26 5 months ago
@TKOblue
You make a good point.My point in return is...whether you believe in hell or not,if it exists...you are going there if you don't acknowledge the fact that you have a Heavenly father who loves you. I am doing my part in telling you that you really don't know what you are missing by rejecting God. I have miraculously been healed from a near fatal accident and I literally was saved on my deathbed. I FELT something catch me in mid air as I was falling.
roddy35wv 6 months ago
@roddy35wv
What you felt on you 'deathbed' it is called Mescaline or 3,4,5-trimethoxyphenethylamine!
:-)
somakr 5 months ago
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@somakr
"What you felt on you 'deathbed' it is called Mescaline or 3,4,5-trimethoxyphenethylamine!
:-)"
Wait, wait, WAIT... what?
PLEASE, discuss this with me. I know you won't EVER admit your wrong but... are you saying our brain produces mescaline? Is that it?
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, answer me! Is that it?
IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE IMPLYING?
YOU WILL HAVE KIDS SOMEDAY! PLEASE! IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING?
I'm crying right now. I really am crying. You believe that?!?!?!
JPVeigaaaa 4 months ago
This guy shouldn't even be on the same stage with Hitchens. Hedges is a LIGHTWEIGHT! He needs to stick to the Bible Belt circut.
tjwmsinlv 6 months ago 3
""The problem is in the human heart..." ???
Double-triple ECGs and coronagraphies immediately!
The brainless fool is dying! (from stupidity...)
somakr 6 months ago
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SuperTrancend 6 months ago
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SuperTrancend 6 months ago
@somakr This is the lack of nuance hedges is talking about with new atheists. The statement you reference to you has no meaning, because your life has very little meaning in the realm of compassion, non rational ideas like love and friendship. You just want to be "right" to "know" the most, thats your little game.
SuperTrancend 6 months ago
@SuperTrancend Non-sequitur.
watisthis99 6 months ago
@SuperTrancend
UHA! I rest my case... A statement is meaningless to me –and to everyone else- because IT IS MEANINGLESS by its own merits, i.e. has contradictory, vague, etc fallacious dispositions. But such linguistic details for all religious SUPERS cuts no ice since THEIR OWN ‘HOLY’ BOOKS HAVE NOTHING BUT CONTRADICTORY & SELFCONTRADICTORY STATEMENTS... Hence their holiness state!
somakr 5 months ago
@somakr I'm sure you know he's talking about emotions, psyche, call it what you will, and "heart" is taken as poetic, unless you think being poetic is too religious.
cleanhomer 5 months ago
@cleanhomer Obviously you don’t have any clue for the cognitive transition of humans for the so called ‘from Mythos to Logos’ state development! Anything in our speech/concepts which refers to such kind of magical-thinking retrogression ought to be treated as a sign of cortical degeneration nevertheless and with sarcastic humor at best. But don’t take my word for it: just read what the SuperTrancend-cuckoo wrote to me!
somakr 5 months ago
@somakr So, you're saying being poetic or artistic is psychotic or something? BTW, I don't know how you're going to really teach me something, or encourage me to learn more about something, if you're going to be rude about it. If all you want to do is be rude, you can do so; you have to impress me with your big words.
cleanhomer 5 months ago
@cleanhomer Are you aware of the “discussion is deception” maxim and/or the ‘crying game’/“appeal to emotion” fallacious statements? Because right now that’s exactly what u r engaging with instead of e.g. the implications of the cognitive development of humankind from 1100cc to up until ~1400cc brain, or even the negative correlation between fertility and intelligence –against ALL religious ‘holy’ and ‘artistic’ books! If nowadays art is anti-scientific then for sure it’s just PSYCHOTIC...
somakr 5 months ago
@somakr Dickhead
cleanhomer 5 months ago
@cleanhomer You're very welcome!
somakr 5 months ago
Hitchens is clearly a myopic moron, as are all these new age secular fundamentalists. How egotistic one must be to actually declare if God does or does not exist, human narcissism to the highest degree, an inability to discern that we have neither the technological advancement nor intellectual acumen to make such incredulous claims. Humility is something both these men must observe. P.S. The Hitchens 'fan club' should be ashamed of itself.
Foxaiis 6 months ago
@Foxaiis We've searched the universe from the now back to the cosmic microwave background. From the quark world to the largest galaxy clusters. So far in no part of the universe we have found any evidence for God or the need for God to "explain" anything. The whole thing works without that hypothesis.
On the basis of that evidence the concept of "God" has to be ranked with pink unicorns and dragons in the garage. An idea that merits no credibility at all.
TomFynn 6 months ago
@TomFynn The absence of prove is not necessarily the prove of absence. And i'm not referring to god in the traditional sense, but rather a creator or architect beyond human perspicacity. Your repudiation is rudimentary and constrained by ego, neither can you deny the possibility of a creator or absence of an architect nor can I prove it, this argument in itself is inane and fatuous, just like you and I, just like Hedges and Hitchens.
Foxaiis 6 months ago
@Foxaiis If it's beyond human perspicacity the why the fuck make the claim in the first place? What's the point of a question you frame in a way so you cannot possibly have answer?
Yes, I could be wrong about God. I could also be wrong about pink unicorns and the like. I simply don't bother with wasting my time on that possibility. If you want any cred for the proposition of "God" bring some hard evidence. And not just the usual god-of-the gaps arguments.
TomFynn 6 months ago
@TomFynn "Whats the point of a question you frame in a way so you cannot possible have an answer?"
I think you probably provided the reason as to why people seek solace in religion in the first place. And I don't have 'hard evidence' to prove God exists for I don't believe in it per se, I'm just not so illogical as to claim it does not exist and if it did exist God that is the likelihood is I would have complete contempt for it. But the matter of the subject is that you cannot deny possbility.
Foxaiis 6 months ago
@Foxaiis "The fact that the believer is happier than the unbeliever is no more to the point than the fact that the drunk is happier that the sober." G.B. Shaw. The people who flew those planes into the buildings did so with the serenity of doing their Lord's work.
Yes, keeping an open mind is a good thing. But not so open that our brains fall out.
The concept of God has to be shelved in the box marked "BS".
This might change one day.
But I won't hold my breath.
TomFynn 6 months ago
@TomFynn Ignoring the fact that within your "BS" box nestled beside the god conception should be the official 9/11 story, you cannot possibly equate religion with human baseness. It's just a shawl like nationalism etc worn by the unethical to justify their actions. Religion is what abrogates women's rights?. I don't believe this in fact I think the patriarchal society in the east is just a crude & raw form of our western one. We dictate what women should look like, what clothes they should wear.
Foxaiis 6 months ago
@Foxaiis What? Did the perps of 9/11 *not* think God willed it? Did the guy who gunned down that abortion doctor *not* think God willed it? Did the hordes of the Thirty Year War *not* think God willed it? Did the Spaniards who plundered South America *not* think God willed it?
Yes, even we have cultural norms. But we do not throw battery acid in people’s faces for not complying with them and *get away with it*!
TomFynn 6 months ago
@TomFynn & if God is gone something else will be used to justify the unjustifiable. In the early 20th century science was used to invalidate the Jews consequently leading to genocide. The Reich could have easily proclaimed progressive science willed it. Yes religion has been used to warrant mass atrocities but if it was not around something else would have been used as a substitute. And our methods of social conformity are more surreptitious than the Easts, yet still as barbaric.
Foxaiis 6 months ago
@Foxaiis Correction: In the 20th century pseudo-science was used to justify atrocities. The Reich proclaimed the Führer willed it. Proclaiming things in the name of some infallible leader with access to “higher” knowledge is a tried and tested method…
If you think our methods are barbaric, you don’t know shit.
TomFynn 6 months ago
@Foxaiis "How egotistic one must be......." We humans made up gods to understand the wild and scary world that we lived in.........when we lived in CAVES! Now that we can understand more things about the world we have no need for these mythologies.......like children leaving childish thinking behind we must leave this childish thought of religion behind us and grow up to look after each other for the sake of looking after each other not because the big daddy in the sky will be cross with us.
wildheartmuse 6 months ago 12
Chris Hedges is an idiot.
That is all.
abdallabissar 6 months ago
Hedges hit the nail right on the head in this video, even if religion was completely abolished mankind would still commit acts of atrocity. A belief or disbelief in God is a moot point, it's existence would not dictate the actions we take. We exist to serve the self, our duty should be to mitigate the damage we do to the world and each other, not argue whether a omnipotent deity exists. All of our hands are dirty, whether we're a theist or not.
EcologicalFighter 6 months ago
@EcologicalFighter i find that comment to be false really. But thats only my opinion.
UtopiaMinor666 6 months ago
@EcologicalFighter it isn't about a belief in god. it's about religion and how it makes good people do bad things. people are generally good, however people are also generally either ignorant or desperate or both and give into religion. religion is intellectually stultifying which is very dangerous for good people who want to do good things. ultimately, the only reason most of our hands would be dirty is because we've soaked(and pruned) them in religion.
thepickletrain 6 months ago
@bapyou I agree
PtAltmVansanTarr 7 months ago
@OppressedAtheist The cluelessness is all yours, my friend. What I wrote stands.
Chris Hedges is perhaps America's most trenchant and engaged present-day political and cultural observer. In contrast, Hitchens, over the past decade, has devolved into a sorry apologist for the arrogant and imperialist adventures of an uber-right wing government which has rained death and destruction on the peoples of the Mid East and Central Asia. Hitchens looks like a petulant buffoon in this "debate."
End.
bapyou 7 months ago
You can see more of Hitchens owning Hedges at zombietime dot kom slash hitchens-hedges_debate
Mesarphelous 7 months ago 2
@OppressedAtheist Thank god for atheism. Atleast we can have reasonable debate now right?
Cosbibi 7 months ago
@OppressedAtheist "Hedges is "waaaay" out of his league intellectually against Hitchens."
A completely idiotic statement. In fact, Hedges showed Hitchens how intellectually incomplete his arguments truly are. In his rebuttal to Hitchens, Hedges brings to bear a far greater wealth of learning and appreciation, if not for a belief in God, at the least, for the unchanging moral and ethical questions which initially gave birth to religions as institutions.
You're blinded by your Hitchens fandom.
bapyou 8 months ago
To believe "the white that I see is black [Loyola]" is YOUR human right; to teach a child things are so by virtue of their merely believing them to be so is a violation of THEIR human rights and ultimately MINE. The eye of faith can see almost anything it wants to see - except for things as they really are. This manner of 'thinking' is the single greatest impediment to finding any incentive for creating a durable survival for our species today.
bluygs 8 months ago
Why isn't there a full video of this debate?
kissmyass682 8 months ago 38
Hitchens' own brand of Jihad against the Middle East undercuts the notion that he is a torchbearer of reason. Hedges offers a profoundly more searching analysis of geopolitics than this vile Neocon catamite. There is not much analytical depth to Hitchens beyond a schoolboy delight in recycling the slogan God is Dead. Like the atheist thinkers before him on the order of Russell and Sartre, Hedges fights both clericalism and militarism. There is vastly more profundity in his philosophical view.
MenOfLetters 8 months ago 3
If you remove religion bad people still exist and find excuses to make there wicked deeds seem right. But they can't come up with the excuse that they have the absolute truth and that they don't have to listen to other people or it is blasphemy to criticize them. I think that is quite a leap forward.
Math2Anton 9 months ago
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rcbodle 9 months ago
@Math2Anton Noting is wrong with claiming absolute truth..people are entitled to believe what they want..but what would be a leap forward would be if there was a religion or world-view that forbade violence done in its name. You know sort of love your enemies and do unto others...
rcbodle 9 months ago
Get rid of religious fundamentalism and wooshka..on the way to utopia ? Not only an incredibly naive statement but also historically ignorant.
Hedges spot on. The problem lies within humanity and our ability to bastardize anything..even the good.
rcbodle 9 months ago
@rcbodle: Agree! Humans can ruin anything! If religion was absent, they would still ruin everything and commit mass murders and inquisitions on each other.
RockyBalboa211 9 months ago
@rcbodle The point is that religion puts an all knowing god on their side when they do that, which makes those decisions agreeable to the religiously gullible, therefore its an aid in deceiving people. Just because people do bad things anyway doesnt mean theres nothing wrong with something that helps take advantage of peoples moral weakness & lack of understanding of people that think or live differently than they do.
gta747 9 months ago
@gta747 So given your reasoning the atheist who thinks that because there is no ultimate accountability he can rip people off, maybe even kill people for his advantage if he gets away with it, is somehow "better" than the religious nut who lives sacrificially because his make believe God told him to. At least the Atheist is living in light of the real truth right? Btw everyone has a God or world perception to which they live in accord, even the atheist.
rcbodle 9 months ago
@rcbodle The accountability lies in the people he does wrong to, and not being able to hide behind his belief system, like you said, humans will always do wrong, at least an atheist cant hide behind religious organizations and other peoples religious gullibility.
gta747 9 months ago
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rcbodle 9 months ago
@gta747 Your missing the point. The atheist is free to think that he might not be ultimately held accountable. He can then rationalize any activity for whatever cause he likes. People are great at that ! Look at some of the mass murderers in History.
Btw I do agree with you about blindly following religion. People who blindly follow any belief system, let alone one that condones violence are stupid and wrong.
But what if there is a God... who is good , chuck the baby with the bathwater?
rcbodle 9 months ago
@rcbodle If there were a god, it would be one that chucks the baby with the bathwater on its own, that much is obvious. It doesnt sound like a "good" god to me.
gta747 9 months ago
@gta747 er ? not sure what your point is.
rcbodle 9 months ago
@rcbodle That life would be better than it is if it were created by something that cared about us.
gta747 9 months ago
@gta747 Well I suppose we could of been created like robots, that would of been safe...but maybe we were created with free will and stuffed up. world sure looks that way to me. Stupid people doing their own selfish things. Dont think it follows that if this is the case God doesnt care.
rcbodle 9 months ago
@rcbodle
How would that apply to dying during childbirth? Decaying slowly from flesh eating diseases or drowning in a flood? We suffer from our environment and genes far more than each other. We could have freewill without misery or unmeetable standards if the alleged god was just and did care.
Chinomareno 9 months ago
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rcbodle 9 months ago
@Chinomareno A good point. The book of Genesis provides an answers to your question from the Christian perspective. It tells us that the world originally was without defect when man was in relationaship with their creator...but its seems nature/the universe is somehow tied to man/his rebellion. I suppose the biblical analogy is being caste out of the Garden. When we lived in perfect harmony with God..so did nature/the universe.
rcbodle 9 months ago
@rcbodle what does creating something to have free will have to do with caring about it? we wouldnt care that we didnt have free will if we had no concept of it or were just robots, so nothing non-caring wouldv been done
gta747 8 months ago
@gta747 So given your argument if you had a child you would prefer it lobotomised/incapable of making independant judgements. ..that way it would be less likely to make bad decisions ?
Love/caring has everything to do with it. I want the best for my child in that it be capable to experience the greatest of all things.
rcbodle 8 months ago
@rcbodle if it was impossible for it to make a bad decision if it had no free will then yea, that would avoid a lot of potential problems, if i were god id make it able to experience the greatest of things also, that doesnt require free will, id have to give them free will to be able to decide independently of me what the greatest things are in the first place
if i were god i wouldnt systematically screw my creation out of happiness, thats not loving in my opinion
gta747 8 months ago
@gta747 Having relationship with a loving God is the greatest possible happiness.....even in spite of the fact
that the worlds a tough place, life stinks sometimes. Cocooning someone from hardship, their mistakes isnt always the best option. What if God wants us to mature. Maybe theres a greater good ?
rcbodle 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Get rid of religion and wooshka...on the way to utopia ? incredibly naive position and historically ignorant. Hedges spot on. The problem is with the human condition and our ability to bastardize anything...even the good.
rcbodle 9 months ago
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rcbodle 9 months ago
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rcbodle 9 months ago
im a hitch fan but hedges really does a better job than anybody else taking on hitch
phildirt3 9 months ago 3
Hedges is missing the point when he says dictators will wrap themselves in the cloak of something else besides religion. The point is religion is tailor made to do that exact thing : DICTATE. Thats why its always used!! Use your brain. Yes dictators will try to use something else to dominate, but religious thinking makes it so easy for them, it will become harder for them to do without it.
shortfuse41 9 months ago
@shortfuse41 not true. after all, once religion is eradicated -in a new-atheist model- then our leaders will make decisions and toy with our lives the same way they do now however in the guise of "science".
either way...I think the problems we face now are due to a system obsessed with greed, power, and surveillance. Religion or non-religious codes of ethics don't really play much into the New World Order ( in my opinion) merely the banks, rather.
TheRealPDizzle 9 months ago
@TheRealPDizzle so what ive said about our government and our elite being obsessed with greed, surveillence etc, has some merit to this whole idea that "we will find some other way to justify evil.
" because, right now we live in a society/culture that fixates on the celebrity-status. we (the masses) want to be rich, sexy, powerful, loved by everyone, because that is the American dream. and our unchecked capitalistic society justifies going to war, unconstitutional spying, etc it is our religion
TheRealPDizzle 9 months ago
@shortfuse41 also, this focus on religion as a tool for conquest originates not from the creation of religion as the tool, but using an already existing system -which so many followed to obtain moral stability- to create an excuse for any immoral behavior. I.E. All these Christians believe in God and believe that if they follow the word of God, then they will become better people. So we (the evil government) say "if we destroy this country or this religion, god will favor us and you will advance
TheRealPDizzle 9 months ago
@shortfuse41 so therefore, science too, can be used the same way. "in the name of science, we believe that having this race on the planet, or if this race mingles with ours, we will be inefficient; so we must make it our military aim to eradicate this race and make it unlawful to breed with any of the bad race." chris hedges is merely saying that by disconnecting human violence and cruelty from a human condition, we allow ourselves to find any means to perpetuate evil under any guise or excuse
TheRealPDizzle 9 months ago
Hedges is a more complete thinker than Hitchens. The fact that Hitchens is swinging his foot while Hedges responds to Hitchens' comments is unignorable body language. What it says is "I'm not really in this guy's league when it comes to intellectual discourse as I relie mostly on the my upper-crust British accent for people to take me seriously. I wish he'd stop talking so that I can get back to being the center of attention."
Next to Hedges, Hitchens seems petulant.
bapyou 10 months ago
YouTube Sux. And, so does religion!
DARKLADYOFGA 10 months ago
@DARKLADYOFGA
Your fear of morality is sad.
ivlfounder 10 months ago
YouTube Sux.
DARKLADYOFGA 10 months ago
Hitchens has an interesting and engaging personality, but at the same time his dicourse is often a bit on the shallow side, or one-sided. I am an atheist, but cannot always agree withs Hitchens' generalizations and simplifications when it comes to the whole Muslim world, for example (his highly subdued criticisms of Israel is very disappointing as well). It is likely that he'll be remembered as an interesting commentator and interlocutor, and not as a deep thinker and/or a profound philosopher.
Nicitor313 10 months ago
WOW... I have never seen anyone that made a true valid point that was opposing the great Hitchens.
kick08ful 10 months ago
plz upload it all
SuperTrancend 10 months ago
Hedges is a real journalist, Hitchens is an opportunist/celebrity. Hitchens memoir is a good work though, I'll admit he has amazing descriptive ability.
SuperTrancend 11 months ago
The reply by Hedges implies religion is useless, but we should keep it and focus on curing human evil instead. It would be like saying that because homeopathy is useless and does nothing, we should keep it and not heavily criticize it or attack it, because at least homeopathy does some good for many people. If this is the case, why don't we also justify all sorts of other things too - if believing in the tooth fairy helps adults, should we not encourage that false b.s. to be believed?
SeeProfileForDetails 10 months ago
hedges > hitchens
SuperTrancend 11 months ago
This debate will go in circles and circles.I f a higher lets call it spirit entity god or higher intelligence excist and created us.Stop blaming the higher spirit for our mistakes.Nobody demands anything of us its what the other person is saying the fan club.
foppo100 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I agree with Hedges Hitchens has gotta a beef with religion and uses it to cover up the real problem: capitalism!
augerrusty 11 months ago
I agree with Hedges Hitchens has gotta a beef with religion and uses it to cover up the real problem: capitalism!
augerrusty 11 months ago
I wonder does Hitchens ever these debates with his hardcore religious brother Peter. The guy has unresolved issues that have nothing to do with religion, his mother killed herself in 1973, in a suicide pact with her lover, a former clergyman.
DJSpinoza 11 months ago
@DJSpinoza How does someone get over that without becoming angry about something.
DJSpinoza 11 months ago
I have to absolutely agree with Chris Hedges. None of the tiresome rhetoric when watching debates or "discussions" about religion.
LameCrippled 11 months ago
It's human nature. Intraspecific competition for resources - and you really do not need more than that. You can remove the religious factor of a genocide but not the genocide >:)
WarmongerWW3 11 months ago
How is Christopher Hitchens doing?
aitch3 11 months ago
@aitch3 He looks great! :-D!!! he is growing his hair back. he also has a beard. thinner also. He has a debate in Feb 2011 called "Life After Death" with Wolfe, Harris...and forgot the other guys name. put on my Jewish University (red curtain in background).
tulipsontheorgan 11 months ago
@tulipsontheorgan Thanks. I hope he recovers completely and we start seeing him on the news shows again.
aitch3 10 months ago
It's not god I have a problem with. It's his fan club !
WhiteLakeDan 1 year ago 35
@WhiteLakeDan I dislike both.
MrJizzinator 1 year ago
@WhiteLakeDan That made me laugh out loud, beautifully said.
McInalda 7 months ago
@WhiteLakeDan I like your comment, but I have to tell you that the funny last statement is what leaves you open! if it is the "fan club" you have an issue with, by that logic, I would be correct as a Black man, to hate all whites in spite of the fact that some whites have risked and given their lives for blacks. Since I am not sure what you will comment when humor is not the goal, I will wait to see where you stand in regard to my response.
REASONINFUSION 7 months ago
@WhiteLakeDan haha good point, but i do have a problem with "god" killing innocent woman and children by teh thousands over and over again! (one example:noahs arc)
SelfAware1 6 months ago