How could the free world deny Taiwan its sovereignty? [台灣人民有自決之權利]

[xxxTruthHurtsxxx]

There is a simple answer to this: Taiwanese locals fought in the name of Japan in WW2 and they lost the war. Chinese Nationalists took over the island after Taiwanese surrender. Therefore local Taiwanese lost all their rights. Only post-WW2 Mainlanders in Taiwan can decide the sovereignty of Taiwan. Remember there were 200,000+ Taiwanese fighting for Japan. You are NOT the victims, you were the evil wolves, you won't win this fight because you were, and still are on the wrong side.

[calyang1967]

Taiwan is going to be independent from ROC? or Republic People of China? most people do not have answers, nor consistent answers from.

[GOTCOL]

its scandalous. taiwan gets involved in world affairs and donates to other countries who need help but the WHO do not recognise the island because china maintains its claim. no one stands up to china meaning that china must be the world superpower now.

Taiwan is its own country.

[sarj39]

As someone who served in the US NAVY in Taiwan from 1961 - 1963 it makes perfect sense for Taiwan to be it's own country and to elect it's own government. I love this country and how it has progressed. By it's own progression alone it should determine it's own future which I believe will be bright. I like the flag like the island nation it's Green. The US military who served there are proud of you all and hope for your dream to come trued.

[sarj39]

As someone who served in the US NAVY in Taiwan from 1961 - 1963 it makes perfect sense for Taiwan to be it's own country and to elect it's own government. I love this country and how it has progressed. By it's own progression alone it should determine it's own future which I believe will be bright. I like the flag like the island nation it's Green. The US military who served there are proud of you all and hope for your dream to come trued.

[Enigmatism415]

The greatest danger of a Taiwanese nation removed from the ROC is the consequential desinicization of Formosan culture. 98% of the Taiwanese people are Han-Chinese from the Mainland (early Hoklo and Hakka from Fujian, and later post-civil-war Mainlanders) and only 2% aboriginal. The culture of that stark majority forms an integral part of a greater pan-Chinese identity that transcends the recent PRC on the mainland. The PRC shouldn't represent "China" in totality. The KMT can't be exiled again.

[dartoolee]

@Enigmatism415

The recent scientific book written by Dr. Marie LIn (of Mackay Memorial Hospital in Taiwan) clearly indicates that the southern Han are basically of southern origin and remain genetically distinct from the northern Han, "Taiwanese” who are descendants of the ancient Yueh peoples preserve the ancestral HLA haplotype of the Yueh, and there was a clear split between the populations of Taiwan and the southeast coastal provinces from all other parts of China ...

[Enigmatism415]

@dartoolee

By your reasoning it would seem that 滿族人 and other Chinese ethnic groups should be distinct from 中華民族. This is downright silly, there are plenty of "Southern Han" and "Yueh" peoples in the mainland, notably the ones that speak 粵語. It is of little dispute that non-aboriginal Taiwanese came from the mainland at some point in their history (mostly during the 明 and 清 dynasties), their language is even mutually intelligible with 廈門福建話.

P.S. 馬英九 is just afraid to alienate the PRC.

[dartoolee]

@Enigmatism415

(cont) The so-called KMT party originally exiled from China has been officially pronounced dead in 2008 by its present chairman Ma Ying-jeou. This fact is quite obvious for Ma has even forbidden the people now living in Taiwan to show the ROC flag whenever PRC officials are visiting Taiwan. Ma has successfully terminated the original KMT party set up in China and just used its carcass to manipulate and rob Taiwan.

[Enigmatism415]

Fact #1: The US is the principal occupying power of Taiwan.

Fact #2: The intention of the Allies after WWII was to return Taiwan to "China" (ROC).

Fact #3: They didn't because the civil war resulted in two "Chinas." Returning it to the ROC would've allowed a PRC invasion. Returning it to the PRC would be ceding US land to communists. As long as Taiwan is occupied by the US (or the ROC, on their behalf) the PRC cannot intervene.

Opinion: The US should grant the ROC legal sovereignty over Taiwan.

[dartoolee]

@Enigmatism415

(1) The ROC regime in Taiwan was an exile from its land. Since 1895, Taiwan had been officially ceded to Japan by Qing Empire in China;

(2) The reason that General D. MacArthur issued an order requesting ROC's CKS to send representatives to Taiwan to receive the surrender of Japan forces remaining there is because MacArthur wanted ROC forces to continue fighting against the expansion of red Communism in East Asia, taking the advantages of the resources left in Taiwan.

[Enigmatism415]

@dartoolee

This all may be true, but you seem to be avoiding other key intentions. Surely if MacArthur intended the ROC to continue fighting the PRC, he would also naturally intend for the ROC to remain in existence (on Taiwan). This is evidenced clearly by the Cairo Declaration, the Postdam Declaration, and even a clause in the 1952 SF Peace Treaty that was removed at the last minute for the reasons I had expressed earlier.

[bigblondman1]

@dartoolee no, the r.o.c. was in exile as of 1949. 1895 is when japan acquired taiwan from the qing dynasty in perpetuity. so even when the japs surrendered to the r.o.c. on taiwan they still had legal claim to it. only in the sfpt 1952 did the japs turn over all claims of taiwan to the u.s. making them the sole occupying power. the r.o.c. is a subordinate occupying power. the misconception is that military occupying power means sovereignty, it doesnt. international law supersedes military law

[bigblondman1]

@Enigmatism415 i agree. but because of international law it states that a government in exile is not a sovereign state and cannot claim legal authority on its residence land. thats why the u.n. would never approve that. the key, i think is to summon the world court and have the international law changed to favor rather than prevent the r.o.c. from being legal. if man can make laws to restrict they can change the laws and remove the restrictions but its all so complicated and exasperating.

[Enigmatism415]

@bigblondman1

Well, if the US is the principal occupying power, does it not have the authority to make whatever government it wants (whether in exile or not) a legitimate government once again?

[bigblondman1]

@Enigmatism415 im no expert. but i think the u.s. can transfer its legal authority over to the r.o.c. but the r.o.c. is still considered a government in exile and the law states that there are no methods or provisions that allow a gov. in exile to be given sovereignty. as i said the law would have to be changed. and even if the u.s. could make the exception, they risk provoking the p.r.c. its set up now to make it impossible for the r.o.c. to legally claim taiwan as sovereign of the r.o.c.

[Enigmatism415]

@bigblondman1

In that case, my solution would be for the US, PRC, and ROC to agree upon a new Chinese confederation, in which the PRC governs the mainland while the ROC governs Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Macau. "One China, Two Nations." In this way, The PRC can maintain a unified entity known as "China" while the ROC can maintain indefinite legal sovereignty. Over time, their gap will narrow until true and mutually agreeable unification is possible one day. I know it's a stretch, but it's an idea.

[bigblondman1]

@Enigmatism415 its actually a very good idea. but remember youre dealing with communists. frankly they can never be trusted. they never want to share any power. they just want it all. and also, realize that the p.r.c stresses the one china policy. so its unlikely they would acknowledge the r.o.c. any sovereignty at all. as far as reunification goes, the r.o.c. has been making great steps that way economically. there hoping that will accelerate reunification.

[Enigmatism415]

@bigblondman1

The concept of "nationhood" is a relatively recent one in human history; the concept of "One China," however, has existed many centuries earlier (since its first unification in 221BC under the Qin empire). If only the PRC would accept that "One China" does not inherently mean "One Chinese Nation" in the sense of modern-day Westphalian sovereignty, we could really get somewhere. A confederation is simply a more macro entity; it is still unified as "One China."

[bigblondman1]

@Enigmatism415 yes, thats all true. but, one china means one nation to the commies. personally i wouldnt trust them. they only want the advantage, always. another option for the r.o.c. is to relocate their gov. to the matzu island group. they have sovereignty there. then the u.s. could transfer legal status to a sovereign nation. that would be a big step. but the problem would be the p.r.c. could claim gov. succession of those islands. international law doesnt recognize the title roc.

[bigblondman1]

@Enigmatism415 also the one china policy to the p.r.c. means of course only them. they could care less about the r.o.c. thats why i dont trust the commies at all. personally i think what should happen hopefully one day is for the communists to dissolve themselves much like the soviets did in russia. thats also a stretch. the other option is as ive stated to have the law changed. what the r.o.c is doing now is cross strait relations. otherwise, the last resort, unfortunately is war.

[iean888]

台灣必定成功獨立!! 誰都擋不了!! 要拿下台灣, 先準備死一個福建吧 !! 何況, 福建與台灣族群相近, 牽一髮動全身, 如果倒戈, 中國準備大內亂吧 !! 有種玩玩看!! 打台灣不是在打西藏!! 規模可大多了!! 越南趁勢也北進一下, 維族,內蒙, 趁勢也南推一下, 搞得你中南海滿頭包! 有種現在就揮軍南下吧!! 笑你中國玩不起! 攻台灣就是南下擴張領土, 南洋國家不會當乖乖牌,任你中國胡搞的! 笑你中國玩不起! 哈........ 笑你中國玩不起!

[shanyangqu]

taiwan could be the trigger of 3rd world war.

US entering that war could be the end of it global rule. of course China would back to what it was 20 years ago. and Taiwan will be the hell on earth. EU and RUS become the world leader. when people talk about politics they normally don't care about the consequences.

[dartoolee]

To shanyangqu: Your guess could be totally wrong. The PRC regime in China may fall apart any time, long before WWIII, without any intervention of external forces. Please be concerned with the democratization of China where you are a resident now, but not the future of Taiwan. Taiwan is Taiwan!

[ManjuSu]

@dartoolee China will democratize, actually it's democratizing already now, but that doesn't mean the party will fall.

[Phead128]

@dartoolee.

US will not get into a war with Red China over Nationalist China. She will turn a blind eye and 'attempt' some rescue mission, but not total war.

Nationalist China cannot depend on US as a reliable ally.

[alfieyip]

@dartoolee what do 阿燦 knows? U r wasting so much time explaining to 阿燦s of this world. do u know what 阿燦 means? with all this much of social injustice, how can their country not fall apart?

[JetLiIsGreat]

It is a matter of time taiwan and China will unitified. When China overtook US as no 1 trading partner of Taiwan, they voted a pro-China president, right now, 50% of Taiwan's export goes to China, US is much less. Imagine in 10 years time when China's GDP overtake US (which means China's GDP increase by 3 times), Taiwan trade with China may jump to 70% or probably more. China take over taiwan is not through military but economy.

[emrahtuncer551]

I know a lots of taiwanese and mainland chinese people both

it's not that taiwanese people hate the chinese bla bla. they are chinese people already but they have something which mainland people don't carry it.... self-criticism... the taiwanese are much much more civilized and politer than the chinese. so i also don't wish that taiwan can be part of communist PRC.

[ManjuSu]

@emrahtuncer551 Taiwanese in general aren't politer than the Chinese, same as the opposite. If you go to China you'll see that the people there are as polite as they are in Taiwan, please don't generalize.

[emrahtuncer551]

@ManjuSu i went to china and i saw. they look polite but not as much as they look

[ManjuSu]

@emrahtuncer551 I am Chinese too, and I can be very polite to people if they are polite to me, even if I disagree with people, I can still say why I disagree in a polite way. Just don't generalise the Chinese people as impolite because you've met a few that were like that, there are alot of them that are very polite.

[christjewells]

meh. people should really look into things before they start spouting off about things they're not even familiar with.

yes, historically a prc has never had anymore than a shoddy claim on taiwain.

yes, the treaty of SF does cede taiwan to the primary liberator of the island (the u.s.) and the u.s. has never officially ceded the island to anyone else. making taiwan a de-facto outpost of the u.s.

economically, militarily; it makes sense to use a proxy as your outpost. the secretariat knows this

[chaloner]

United States are pussys they're are scared of Communist China.

[aywwsd]

all this video got is what the taiwanese people want and what the the americans should do.

maybe taiwan needs to take a step back and realize americans don't really care about taiwan enough to go to war with china.

all america really want is to sell taiwan over priced out dated military technology.

[findmeifyoucan]

You don't really know your history do you? US has fought in wars against communism many times. The korean war, vietnam war, and BECAUSE US lost the korean war due to China helping the north koreans, US wanted to defend taiwan from being overrun by communists. If China started war with taiwan, what makes you think US won't defend it like it did to Vietnam and Korea?

[aywwsd]

usa fought in many wars against communism, but it wasn't because of political ideology. we fought in korea and vietnam to further our own political influences around the world.

there is little for us to gain to go to war against the chinese over taiwan.  if taiwan didn't have money to overpay for used f16s, the chinese would have invaded already.

[MrFlatmate]

You are comparing Korea and Vietnam with China? You got be kidding me. It's not same story. US do against communism, but going to war with China is just insane.

[yuan725]

i love free. i love taiwan. i love world.

[SJInternationale]

free xiajin, free tiawan, free hong kong, free macau, free Tibet, free kashmir!

[TheTurkPig]

sjinternational, why did you block me? (btw, it's a total coincidence that i saw you here).

but you said 'free kashmir'?? i've read recently that the Indian-governed part of Kashmir wants to free themselves from India. you being part Indian, and part turk-lover, i thought you'd know lol!

[MrFlatmate]

this kind of people don't even know what the hell they're talking about... a poll showed 90% of protester don't even know Tibet's location on map... they just think everything should be freed. LOL

[TheTurkPig]

lol, that's true!

[TheTurkPig]

What about Tamil Nadu?

[lanuiiohu]

we speak taiwanese

[CaptainCool07]

hahaha too bad Dpp lost the election. bunch of losers

[pengxiangz]

你们这些台独分子只有一个下场, 消失。 中华民族的癌根。继续做美国人的走狗吧！

[dartoolee]

To pengxiangz: You have to know that I am a Taiwan plain aborigines and my ancestors have dwelt on this island Taiwan (aka Formosa) for thousands of years. You've got to study the true history of Taiwan. What makes you think Taiwan should be a part of your PRC regime? What kind of people are you? A Manchu? Or a Mongolian? Do you even know who you are? 23M Taiwan residents surely have our own rights of self-determination, and the majority of us do wish to live independently in this new Taiwan!

[CaptainCool07]

...What kind of people are you? A Manchu? Or a Mongolian?

Chinese people do not become the invaders. Invaders become Chinese.

[Phead128]

@dartoolee.

Maybe you should fight and revolt against the ROC gov't just like the Chinese did to the Manchus.

Fight duh. stop bitching and arguing with 'wishful' thinking about 'what is right' and 'what is wrong'. You need action, and balls dude.

[lanuiiohu]

china belong to Japan

[KingBanti]

lol why you guys asking for US?

Fight for your independence, any way you like..

learn something from freedom fighters during colonization times.

If you all actually wants any independence, you have to earn it.

US first objective is to look after their peoples, why they care about Taiwan?

What wrong deed China doing with you peoples if you accept their rule? If you didn't get inspiration from that then you deserve China rule you all.

[dartoolee]

Taiwan residents had been fighting for their independence and established the second earliest republic in Asia as early as 1895 when Formosa was ceded in perpetuity to Japan by the Qing Empire. And ever since the CKS-led forces came to occupy Taiwan in 1945, Taiwan residents have been fighting for their independence. During the Taiwan 228 Massacre in 1947, tens of thousands of Taiwan people were killed by the CKS forces.

[mikewbma]

And the president of the republic was a patriotic Chinese.

[Jpnza]

taiwan is a country?wtf

taiwan is republic of china

[dartoolee]

To Jpnza: The foreign Republic of China exiled in Taiwan is no longer a regime recognized by the communistic PRC regime and the UN. You have to read more about Taiwan before you comment further on this subject!

[dartoolee]

To Jpnza: (cont.) The present pro-PRC, the KMT Party-led ROC (Republic of China) president in Taiwan, Ma Ying-jeou, would not even allow Taiwan residents to show their ROC's national flag wherever PRC officials (and the two illegally imported pandas) are present in Taiwan. Therefore, we may well say that the exiled ROC regime in Taiwan has been pronounced expired in Year 2008 by the ex-chairman of the KMT Party Ma Ying-jeou!

[dartoolee]

Just like English is now the common language used in the US, Mandarin (Pekinese) is chosen by the ROC (Republic of China) regime in exile here in Taiwan. In fact, there exist more than 10 aboriginal languages spoken by native Taiwan peoples! And Taiwan is the homeland of Austronnesians! Also, for your info, Japanese was also taught to Taiwan residents after the Manchu Empire gave Taiwan to Japan in 1895.

Yes, most of Taiwan residents understand Chinese, But at home, we speak Minnah and Hakka.

[19hyena84]

you did a good job!