Thank you - I hadn't really followed up the references on prolongation much beyond Schenker (music is part of what I do, but not really the focus), so I'm grateful for the reference to "The problem of prolongation in post-tonal music".
I did write a short paper in a cybernetics journal around this called "Music, Memory and Cognition: a cybernetic approach" (in Kybernetes) but you've prompted me to do some more work!
Well presented. The hurdle I think you have to overcome in your prolongational argument is to explain why you believe the connections you illustrate are truly, and technically, prolongations and not merely associations. Joe Straus talks about this in his 1987 article "The Problem of Prolongation in Post-Tonal Music." The theory field seems to have signed on to his view, so I wonder how you would argue that the notes you find are not just associated, but actually entail prolongational force.
Well, although interesting process, you message is not very complex - the listener will not find the piece "music" because of what he expects music to be.
However, this piece is quite well constructed and Lachenmann is known for taking what seems to be "noise" and actually apply traidtional, long-standing means to extend such sounds into a piece of music of some duration. I'd like for example to see an analysis of how he manipulates uniquely traditional glissando and fluttertongue.
Well, although interesting process, you message is not very complex - the listener will not find the piece "music" because of what he expects music to be.
However, this piece is quite well constructed and Lachenmann is known for taking what seems to be "noise" and actually apply traidtional, long-standing means to extend such sounds into a piece of music of some duration. I'd like for example to see an analysis of how he manipulates uniquely traditional glissando and fluttertongue.
Great lecture. I was a but skeptical at points,but by the end I understood (and somewhat agree with) your points. I use to be quite fond of this kind of music, and I've personally performed Cage's Variations II and Cartridge Music, so I'm no stranger to odd textures. However nowadays I tend to believe this stuff is closer to sound design than what is generally accepted as music.
Wow - what a quick reply! I have not been listening to Lachenmann that long, but my initial impulse was to consider most of the musical connections to be associative in nature - motivic and textural connections that still relate to the gestures and formal shapes of traditional music. For me, prolongation is indeed a loaded word, as it assumes a structural hierarchy rooted in some system outside the work.
Very interesting, but I am curious as to why you began the analysis with a search for prolongation - it seemed as though you were putting the cart before the horse, especially given the carefully delineated flowchart with which the analysis concluded.
Thank you for your comments. 'Prolongation' is obviously a slightly loaded term with a lot of Schenkerian baggage. Most of this I want to dispense with, although what I mean by prolongation relates to what effectively 'sticks in the memory' as we listen. In that sense I see it as relating to Schenkerian prolongation. Obviously, it's my memory that I'm talking about, but I've pursued a method which says "given I remember/notice this, what mechanism is going on in the piece?"... does that help?
2nd part: Yet your method certainly pursues a phenomenological tack, relating events to our perception. So I guess that the question I'm left with is do you feel that HL constructs a likely individual hierarchy in the work, one that the listener can intuit?
I'd like someone to explain why I find this noise so unenjoyable. Seriously.
Uberloinvongenchler 3 weeks ago
Thank you - I hadn't really followed up the references on prolongation much beyond Schenker (music is part of what I do, but not really the focus), so I'm grateful for the reference to "The problem of prolongation in post-tonal music".
I did write a short paper in a cybernetics journal around this called "Music, Memory and Cognition: a cybernetic approach" (in Kybernetes) but you've prompted me to do some more work!
dailyjazz 1 month ago
Well presented. The hurdle I think you have to overcome in your prolongational argument is to explain why you believe the connections you illustrate are truly, and technically, prolongations and not merely associations. Joe Straus talks about this in his 1987 article "The Problem of Prolongation in Post-Tonal Music." The theory field seems to have signed on to his view, so I wonder how you would argue that the notes you find are not just associated, but actually entail prolongational force.
tuttlemsm 1 month ago
Well, although interesting process, you message is not very complex - the listener will not find the piece "music" because of what he expects music to be.
However, this piece is quite well constructed and Lachenmann is known for taking what seems to be "noise" and actually apply traidtional, long-standing means to extend such sounds into a piece of music of some duration. I'd like for example to see an analysis of how he manipulates uniquely traditional glissando and fluttertongue.
alphabet661 8 months ago
Well, although interesting process, you message is not very complex - the listener will not find the piece "music" because of what he expects music to be.
However, this piece is quite well constructed and Lachenmann is known for taking what seems to be "noise" and actually apply traidtional, long-standing means to extend such sounds into a piece of music of some duration. I'd like for example to see an analysis of how he manipulates uniquely traditional glissando and fluttertongue.
alphabet661 8 months ago
Great lecture. I was a but skeptical at points,but by the end I understood (and somewhat agree with) your points. I use to be quite fond of this kind of music, and I've personally performed Cage's Variations II and Cartridge Music, so I'm no stranger to odd textures. However nowadays I tend to believe this stuff is closer to sound design than what is generally accepted as music.
lvbandmore 11 months ago
Beautifully presented....fun to watch and listen for geeks like us.
juemon 1 year ago
bravo! very interesting!
JLFcompositor 1 year ago
Wow - what a quick reply! I have not been listening to Lachenmann that long, but my initial impulse was to consider most of the musical connections to be associative in nature - motivic and textural connections that still relate to the gestures and formal shapes of traditional music. For me, prolongation is indeed a loaded word, as it assumes a structural hierarchy rooted in some system outside the work.
drabauer 2 years ago
Very interesting, but I am curious as to why you began the analysis with a search for prolongation - it seemed as though you were putting the cart before the horse, especially given the carefully delineated flowchart with which the analysis concluded.
drabauer 2 years ago
Thank you for your comments. 'Prolongation' is obviously a slightly loaded term with a lot of Schenkerian baggage. Most of this I want to dispense with, although what I mean by prolongation relates to what effectively 'sticks in the memory' as we listen. In that sense I see it as relating to Schenkerian prolongation. Obviously, it's my memory that I'm talking about, but I've pursued a method which says "given I remember/notice this, what mechanism is going on in the piece?"... does that help?
dailyjazz 2 years ago
2nd part: Yet your method certainly pursues a phenomenological tack, relating events to our perception. So I guess that the question I'm left with is do you feel that HL constructs a likely individual hierarchy in the work, one that the listener can intuit?
drabauer 2 years ago