It is worth noting that this year will be held a competition on the memory of the great composer in Athens! It will be lots of fun and a meeting place for all Alkan enthusiasts!! :D
Just google alkan-zimmerman to get to the official site, youtube doesn't allow me to post links : )
4:34 then you start to question whether Alkan could play his own pieces. Then you remember Liszt stated Alkan had the finest technique he had ever seen, so he probably could have played his own pieces, haha!
@cowzilla8 Yes. The playing follows the score too perfectly, the high register arpeggio chords don't sound right. And it's played too fast. No-one else but Alkan probably could have played it at this speed.
@F14Lolcat But, that's not for certain. And, I notice that he played an accent when there wasn't at 4:20. It's humanly possible, just needs a lot of practice and patience.
@davtones Really? Cause, I notice a little too long of a pause at 4:46 to be perfect. Or, it's probably just a minor malfunction in the "'virtual pianist' digital recording."
@cowzilla8 Im sure he puts in small things like that in so it doesnt sound robotic, like the chords starting at 1:44 which arent perfectly even. And if you notice the chords at around 3:02 which are supposed to be arpeggiated are not in this recording which would be literally impossible for a human to play. As far as i am aware the only human who has actually recorded "Le Preux" is Laurent Martin.
@davtones All right all right, I get it. But, if you look at the "video responses," Laurent Martin isn't the only "human" who has recorded "Le Preux."
@cowzilla8 Haha thanks for pointing that out! I thought that Martin was the only one with a studio recording of the piece, but i guess there are others.
@davtones No problem. I just wish that Hamelin was one of the other ones. It's weird, cause he played so many other Alkan pieces, but not this one. Maybe cause it was too hard for him to be humanly perfect?
OMG! This is nuts! That man can play one of Alkan's craziest pieces - a concert etude lasting 7 minutes - in almost 6 minutes?! This man must have been a madman like Alkan as well! *peace*
French? Because the French are incapable of writing early Romantic music. They are trash. Alkan can copy Mendelssohn all he wants, but he's nothing but a footnote to a footnote. I'd rather be shot than have to listen to his shitty "Symphony for Piano" again. It sucks like shit. The harmonies are not even up to the par of Rossini. It is dried dogshit written down by a moron who knew he had to write "weird" music to get noticed.
There is no way an idiot like you has perfect pitch. And by the way, your little shit-ass "logic" argument is nothing but a big straw man. You're a fucking joke. I'd love to have a piano duel with you. I'd wipe the shit out of you, you fucking creep. I can play Godowsky etudes at sight, and yeah, they are shitty music, but I can play them, and I'd fuck your ass up, you musical idiot. You fucking worthless Alkan fanboy. I'd LOVE to hear you play. I'd laugh.
Did you know that completely unmusical people have been shown to have perfect pitch in experiments? They're not familiar with the notes, and certainly don't know jack shit about scales, but they can memorize a pitch and then recognize and reproduce it days later.
So perfect pitch isn't dependent on musicality (just as musicianship isn't depend on perfect pitch), and it certainly doesn't have jack shit to do with intelligence - yet here you are, angrily insisting on me...
... not possibly having perfect pitch because I'm such an "idiot", because you just can't believe you don't get to claim those insignificant 5 centimeters of pissing distance you so desperately need to "win" this exchange.
You're just so incredibly transparent and pathetic, it's hard to put in words.
Why again should I listen to someone who equates the harmony of, say, Alkan's Concerto, or even Le Vent, to Hanon sequences and rudimentary IV-V-I cadences? Nonsense, all of it.
I'm so hurt that some douchebag that can't even tell what chord is being played is getting his panties in a bunch! Alkan is for shit-faced babies like you. You get transported by Hanon exercises played in filled octaves. Good for you. I'd be surprised if you could even play Chopin after wasting your time with this crap music. This I-IV_V music written by a musical idiot!
From what I have been reading here, the only one that seems to understand the relationship of the various Romantic composers in context is AndrewFinch, and I generally agree with what he says about Alkan. However, I don't know that I'd call Alkan a hack, though he certainly was no great genious like Liszt was.
And I think your comments on Chopin's music are more sad than anything else. Chopin's not even my favorite Romantic composer, Schumann is, but it's sad to read one of 19th-Century art music's real treasures being dumped on childishly in favor of a note-spinning hack like Alkan. Liszt and Mendelssohn played Chopin's music in public, they did not play Alkan's music in public. Clara Schumann played Chopin's music in public, she did not play Alkan's. I think that says a lot, you might not.
@twooffour I don't agree that Alkan was a hack, but I think that the music that AndrewFinch is referring in the Schumann context was the music of the 1830s and 1840s, which really was pretty vapid.
Calling Alkan a "note-spinning hack", and not just from two decades or whatever, but, you know, the composer with his entire body of work, is pretty much proof that the person who said it has little understanding of anything.
@twooffour I disagree. I don't really see what AndrewFinch said that was so offensive so much as obvious. I don't think that Alkan's music is some kind of litmus test for who has a good ear and who doesn't. I just think it's kind of weird, at times interesting, but certainly not the work of any kind of musical revolutionary.
No comment on the "revolutionary" part, but "note-spinning hack" blatantly contradicts "interesting" or even "weird", it basically just mean musically inept, uninteresting virtuosity display. And that's what he meant by that.
I don't care how "offensive" it is, but it sure is kinda stupid.
@twooffour It may be true of some of Alkan's work, but certainly not all of it. At any rate, I don't care that much about it, it's just that he's the only one that said anything of interest on the matter.
Um never said "all of it", but it's a considerable amount, and certainly the majority of his "mainstream" works (you know, the ones clogging up the top videos on Youtube) - for example, I don't find this particular piece musically appealing so far.
Or, what do you mean by "it" again? Is "it" the vapid virtuosity, or the fact that some statement stupid?
@twooffour I don't care about Alkan. He's a sideshow. And I don't care about the issue of whether or not Alkan or Chopin was greater. The answer's obvious. And I never said you said "all of it". Probably 90% of Alkan is dried dogshit, and that is being generous.
If you don't care about Alkan, how come you listened to almost all of his works to make the "educated guess" of 90% of his work being "dried dogshit"?
Certainly not 90% of what I've heard - more like that one or two pieces weren't particularly interesting or appealing to me so I shrugged and moved on. The rest being completely awesome.
@twooffour I started playing the piano when I was 3 and I had my first concert when I was 8 in Toronto. I don't care about Alkan because, yeah, because of IMDB I've been through a lot of it, not necessarily playing it, but reading it. And most of it is what I call salon-music-with-lots-of-octaves. This music is so harmony-driven, yet the harmonies aren't even particularly interesting. Even his organ music sucks. But I like some of the short character pieces. They're like Mendelssohn.
@twooffour Thanks for your attempts at whatever it is you're trying to do. Why do you have to hear his music? Why don't you just read through it? It's a lot faster, and you don't have to wait for people to record it.
Um what? You're the one constantly stressing how little you "care" for either this composer or even this issue, and were just mildly awoken from your great indifference by that one guy who at least said somewhat of interest. What are YOU trying to do?
I started by describing perceived artistic qualities in Alkan's music, or the one I know, as an opposition to someone else denying those qualities. Seems pretty straightforward to me.
I'm basing my opinion on my experience of HEARING a good number of his works in splendid performances. There wasn't any initial impulse to "become familiar with all of Alkan's pieces", and then picking the shortest way of accomplishing that by either listening to recordings or MIDI playbacks, or "reading through the score".
The experience, the input, is already there. I'm now spouting my output ;)
@twooffour OK, it's just weird to me because of all the Romantic composers, Alkan has by far the worst shit-to-good-music than anyone, even Liszt. That's why I agree that he's second rate. Reading his work is actually dull because you don't really process all the ridiculous piano writing that he does, just the raw melody and harmony
At the end of the day, I'm only familiar with the minority of his work so far (much like from any other composer atm), so I'm not saying anything about the shit to good ratio of his work, only about the ones I'm familiar with.
As for the second part, I'm afraid I don't get it. Reading through it is duller than listening? How comes you don't process the "ridiculous writing he does" when reading, isn't listening to a good, fluid performance actually blurring the "ridiculous writing"
@twooffour It is equally dull. Because there is no need for me to create, in my head, the crude piano textures that Alkan creates to get the idea of the work. The work is the work. It's not like Alkan creates particularly interesting piano textures, they are just hard to play, it's not like Chopin or Liszt, it's just octaves and repeated chords usually.
@twooffour I'm not interested in early Liszt. The earliest Liszt I play is the B-minor Sonata, and I don't even think that is a particularly good piece of music. And what difference does Alkan's so-called "influence" really make. Mozart was influenced by J.C. Bach, but what he created was vastly greater than anything that J.C. Bach ever created. What difference does influence in piano texture make? God.
When did I ever talk about influence?? I asked you to compare the two very similar pieces in quality / how they use their textures.
I'm really wondering if you'll try to make the argument that both use the tremolos and chromatics and leaps just on top of the harmony with no real musical purpose behind the difficulty ;)
@twooffour The Liszt is much more harmonically interesting, and laid out much better for the piano. This thing that Alkan has put together is just a nonsense piece, not useful as a technical study, and about as interesting as a Czerny exercise. Liszt had ideas, Alkan had technique. I'd rather not listen to either piece, but one of Chopin's etudes.
Okay, I wonder how am I supposed to still take you seriously. How can you call a composition with a clear structure, mood direction and tension arc a "nonsense" piece? How can you call a piece with clearly laid out forms of techniques such as chromatic scales and different forms of tremolos, all integrated into melodical context, not useful as a technical study?
How can you equate a piece of music that conveyes emotional impressions of deep sadness, eerie mysticism...
@twooffour Maybe because I'm not an idiot fanboy, that can listen to music objectively without going ga ga for ridiculous piano figurations. This piece has the musical drama of a Hanon exercise. Eerie mysticism? LOL< you have got to be kidding me. This is a fucking salon piece. Maybe it's your inferior musical mind?
I don't believe in mysticism myself (at least I realize that any stuff of that sort has to stand up to objective, scientific scrutiny before being taken seriously, just like everything else), but I do realize and understand the basic fact that music is capable of pressing certain buttons in the human mind, by using various stylistic devices, that produce EMOTIONS and IMPRESSIONS that can be, indeed, described as "mystic", or "heroic", or "humorous", or "romantic", or "furious", or..
@twooffour Too bad you don't go for Schopenhauer, oh well. You could maybe hear mysticism in Wagner, but the idea that you could hear it in a piece of shit like this really stretches credulity. You want to like Alkan because it is a trend, therefore you do? Oh, well, I am sick of this shit, this music is utter crap, and I can't stand hearing it every time I click on this video,.
Well, actually I hear mysticism in Le Vent, because I hear mysticism in Le Vent, and frankly, that piece is MADE of mysticism and romantic emotion.
Apart from that, it has a clear structure and arc, and its pianistic textures make complete musical sense.
So not only do you have an awful taste, you also showcase a stunning inability to comprehend basic objective merits. I'm not interested in your accusations of conformism - not one bit.
Yes, if you take Chopin's first etude and play the basic chords on the manual (with the bass notes on the pedals), you'll quickly realize how well it fits (even if sort of lacking figuration/melody) there. As much as I love this etude, I actually do find the constant up and down arpeggios with only very little variation a bit dragging.
So, look look, you didn't even get why I mentioned "organ chords", but that doesn't prevent you from coming back with a....
... vitriolic piece of bullshit sarcasm that doesn't make a shred of sense.
I mean...
"Strike me dead! The organ is sounding! Alkan writes Row Your Boat in Octaves and Thirds, with hand crossing, and oh Lord, it is the reincarnation of Bach! Holy, holy, holy Jesus~"
... what kind of argumentation is THAT??
Hey, are you sure your first recital at 8 wasn't like last week? Because you sure sound like it.
... or "sarcastic and dry", or, indeed, "spiritual", and I'm happy to use those expressions in application to music whenever I want to.
Attempting to brush that all off by lame, vitriolic attempts at "scornful sarcasm" isn't going to help your point, so no point in even trying.
You just called a clearly structured piece "nonsense". You just compared Le Vent to the generic Czerny etude. You call a bunch of chromatics and tremolos "ridiculous piano figurations" despite each...
@twooffour Yeah, after reading your "critiques" of AndrewFinch's objections to Alkan's music, I understand that you are an illogical idiot. What do I care about having no foot to stand on with you? Keep listening to Mendelssohn in octaves, what the fuck do I care? This music is absolute shit, and so is your mind. I have to practice the Brahms 1st concerto tomorrow morning. Have fun mucking around in this shit.
You say my responses to AndrewFinch are "illogical" and "idiotic", yet you offer no rebuttal whatsoever. You have no foot to stand on = no basis for anything you say.
"Keep listening to Mendelssohn in octaves" = lame, lame hyperbolic, dismissive cop-out for lack of any counterarguments you could offer. Indeed, why should I care about that?
"This music is absolute shit"
So now it's "absolute shit"? Just a few hours earlier, you were like "Alkan's not a hack, but just not really...
... a genius." But now, he's "complete and utter dogshit".
Why? I think I know why. You run out of arguments to bring up, and recitals to boast with, so you see the need to take a refuge in over-assertive hyperbole. Like, "I'm really fucking losing my patience, man, you know, I tried being diplomatic 'n shit by admitting that Alkan was just kinda meh okay, but not the best, I even tried to distance myself from someone else's extreme and insulting sentiment about his music, but..
... but now, ah fuck that now, no, he was a hack, and his music is absolute horseshit! Like, oh did I say 90% or something? 99%! And the 1% is really just lame. The 99,99999% percent makes me literally puke up dogshit, that's how horrendous it is! and so's your face!!"
Wow, the artist's temperament is really bursting out of ya, isn't it? Go practise your recital and quit flooding this video with your inane bullshit.
@twooffour Who gives a shit. You obviously can't play a whit, can't read a score, don't have perfect pitch, and don't know what the fuck you're talking about . You babble about Alkan being mystical as if it's a given, and then just get defensive about your own inadequacies as a musician. What do I give a shit. I can probably play a violin better than you can play a piano. You're one of those fanboys. I detest you.
How well I can play doesn't matter (just recovering from a long tendinitis) - your playing, no matter how good it may be, obviously doesn't help you coming up with tangible arguments, or coming off as older than 14.
I can't read a score? When did you just make it up, when failing to think of any arguments to make the point that the textures in Le Vent are without musical purpose? Well, basically, I can.
... "defensive" while it's your turn to post back valid counterarguments that consist of more than empty, vitriolic "sarcasm" and ass-pulled insults, and your track record clearly doesn't support you on that one.
I don't give a crap how well you can play the violin. Show, don't tell. In an online debate, you SHOW what you've got by putting thought into your writing, not TELL how awesome of a musician you are in real life which has no bearing on the argument whatsoever.
As it stands, you've showcased a fatal lack of taste and musical sensitivity that could only be topped by equating the Liebestod to X-Tina's "Genie in the Bottle". And, um, you called a clearly structured piece "nonsense". Still waiting for your justification for that one.
@twooffour Yeah, i have a lack of taste because I don't like hearing the noise of some shitty French pianist banging away at the piano with music that luminaries like Robert Volkmann would have put aside as too common. And yes, I understand you're jealous, but even your hero, Marc-Andre Hamelin says that those of us gifted with perfect pitch are better musicians. I'm not some fucking pop guitarist, asshole. Your lack of pitch means you can't even improvise with other musicians. Loser.
Again, falls in line with you treating this exchange as nothing but a pissing contest. Make up assumptions about your "opponent", bring up various feats from your biography, and you won't have to worry about bringing up sensible arguments in order to "win". Well... no. Doesn't work that way, I'm sorry.
"some shitty French pianist"
What does it matter if he's French? You're not fucking Rowan Atkinson, get over yourself. Just another...
... exmample of your horrendously vapid and immature "argumentation skills".
"banging away at the piano"
So referring to a piano piece that is mostly played in pianissimo as "banging away at the piano" is what, to you, exactly? A "logical" statement? A humorous, but true sarcastic hyperbole? Well it's neither, it's a piece of cow excrement that doesn't make a shred of sense.
I thought it was, like, "piece of shit", and "with ridiculous piano figurations", and a "well structured nonsense piece" and "banging away" and all that, but no, apparently it's just not original and adventurous enough.
"Marc-Andre Hamelin says that those of us gifted with perfect pitch are better musicians"
Says he. Apparently. The vast majority of recognized high-caliber pianists don't have perfect pitch, and a good share of music experts would disagree.
He is often criticized for lack of musicality by others, and while I disagree with that, most certainly not all of his interpretations are superior to those of others.
But hey, scratch that - did you know that Hamelin also speaks very highly of Alkan's music? Certainly far more often than boasting about his perfect pitch. But nvm that - only bother quoting authority figures when it's convenient for you.
Lack of perfect pitch (=relativ pitch) = lack of pitch? Really? Are you...
Perfect pitch? What kind of shit is that? Anyone with musical experience would tell you that neither good musicianship nor musical understanding benefit greatly from having perfect pitch, which, depending on type and degree, as well as the musician's particular occupation, can cause at least as many problems as it can solve.
It's not gonna help you in your piano recitals, and it sure ain't gonna enhance any argument you may bring up for anything we're talking about right now.
And yet, because apparently you happen to have perfect pitch, you start boasting with it just to make yourself appear better in the pissing contest you turned a normal discussion into, for lack of anything really valid to respond with.
Utterly pathetic, and really, really showcases the overall direction you're going here.
You think if you lose in a competition or whatever and get criticized by professors or jurors, and then yell out "but I have perfect pitch! does he? do you?!", you'll be taken any seriously? Well, same here.
Too bad I happen to have it as well, and let me tell you something - get fucking over it.
... intimate revelling evolving into passionate longing and melancholic reminiscence, to the bland superficial "twinkle twinkle little star" feel of the vast majority of Czerny etudes?
While Chasse-Neige shows more diversity with the various tremolo textures, my question was how the textures in Le Vent are unjustifiable from a musical viewpoint, and the obvious answer is that they aren't. The chromatics have a clear purpose (or, in fact different purposes) at any given moment.
@twooffour Oh, I'm about to burst! Tremoloes in G minor make me swoon! Octave figurations have the power of the mystic! Oh, crossing one's hands to play an idiotic melody is the ultimate of the Gradus ad Parnassum. What a douche you are.
The plain chords in the left, which are eventually "tremolized" (heh) towards the end, have a purpose. The lack of textures and fast notes in the section shortly before the "storm" climax has a purpose.
The slow tremolos in the B section have a musical purpose (and effect), and so do the fast tremolos shortly before the climax.
None of it is "vapid" tech stuff imposed onto the harmony, and none of it is any less justified than, say, the arpeggios in Chopin's op.10/1 as opposed to..
@twooffour Oh, the organ chords! Strike me dead! The organ is sounding! Alkan writes Row Your Boat in Octaves and Thirds, with hand crossing, and oh Lord, it is the reincarnation of Bach! Holy, holy, holy Jesus~!
@twooffour Unlike with Liszt's music, the way the notes are set out in Alkan doesn't really add to the work. Liszt's music is, at some points, about the way it is written for the piano. Alkan, not so much. Alkan's piano writing is like Mendelssohn on steroids. It is not about the piano, but just about the harmony, but dressed up in stupid textures that are awkward to play.
@Xcelerate2 People who know nothing about music think classical music is boring. People who know a little bit about classical music (and play the piano) think that Alkan is incredible. People that know a lot about classical music think Alkan is boring. Get it?
And by the way, Alkan IS mainstream among internet fanboys.
@Xcelerate2 Which part do you disagree with? Not all of it I hope, since the first assertion is very similar to your first assertion in the comment that I responded too. However, if you'd just like to disagree in general, that's perfectly fine with me.
@AndrewFinch1 No, I only disagree with the insinuation that less knowledgeable people like Alkan and more knowledgeable people are "above that". Marc-Andre Hamelin seems to like it quite a bit.
@Xcelerate2 I am not insinuating anything about you in this, but have you noticed that most Alkan fans are in their late teens to early 20s and often say ridiculous things like "Alkan was greater than (some composer far better than Alkan ever could have been)? It's irritating, it's irrational, and it has the stink of a cult.
The reason that Alkan has remained a secondary or tertiary figure in Romantic music is because that is simply what he was.
The waltzes are boring, and so are ALL of the nocturnes except maybe one or two. The piano concertos are literally crap.
To me chopin is a great composer, but the majority of his works are boring and overrated (although the majority of Liszt's works are p boring as well, so are alkans...)
Best chopin piece imo is his first ballade, alkans is probably the sonata.
@FranzLisztian it takes a real pianist to play Chopin. Mozart plays itself, so does Beethoven, not saying they are less of composers but more popular to the average person. Chopin creates atmosphere and if you as the pianist cant draw that out of the music or even know what it takes your not ready to take on Chopin
Stop making it sound like Chopin's music is so special. I am sick and tired of all Chopin fan boys on youtube trying to tell me how I am not musical, mature, deep or in your case not ready to take on chopin.
You want to know something? I like Chopin, but oh wow is he overrated. And his fanboys are even worse.
quit being arrogant, music is subjective and your opinion is literally worthless to me.
@FranzLisztian btw your 'waltz' was horrible, no voicing in the chords and bland dynamic i usually dont insult pianists on youtube but after your nasty comments about Chopin i think you deserve it
@FranzLisztian who are you? what conservatory do you go to? are you even in a conservatory? how many ppl have you played for? do ppl even like the way you play? do you overuse the pedal like most amatuer pianist? oh yeah and who is your favorite composer? im guessing Liszt, one of Chopins best friends and a huge influence at that. you have no idea what your criticizing
@FranzLisztian how about we all love the Ballades and Scherzos? how about the technical and musical prowess in the Etudes? how about how everything Chopin at its most basic element is pure music from the heart? maybe us Chopin fans are captured by that
You may love chopin as much as you want and yes his music is emotional and all, I am just annoyed by the fact that you say Chopin requires a "real pianist" and that Beethoven and Mozart doesn't... I listen to Chopin's music a lot, and dont' get me wrong I love him. I just dislike that the fans seem to think that they are more special and deeper than those of other composers. You aren't.
@AndrewFinch1 I hold no pretentions of Alkan being 'greater' than Mozart, Beethoven or Chopin, but I enjoy him more, something that I believe is a reasonable viewpoint
@AndrewFinch1 have you noticed most people cant comprehend partial differential equations in thermodynamics and how create a long term self contained cooling element for the electromagnetic generator strapped to a turbine strapped to my miniature fission reactor. it kind of like you not wrapping your head around this piece or any of the fine works you insulted. i am so glad i hear every single bit of this music. i especially love that you are slamming this too. it makes me see how smart i am :)
@Xcelerate2 And as far as MAH goes, his m.o. is to take neglected, technically difficult material for the piano, and using his technique to play it, often very dully. As such, I think many of his choices of repertoire are horrible. Catoire, Alkan, Godowsky, Ornstein, etc. But they fit his business model. He may very well like Alkan, but he really doesn't have much of a choice but to play with what he's done with his career. His mainstream stuff doesn't sell because it's not a freak show.
Are you saying that this is unmusical or that it's a short piece compared to the amount of notes?
Because this is not unmusical, this is a far more interesting etude than most of Chopin's, keep in mind that this is a digital recording and not a human performance.
@FranzLisztian It is extremely uninteresting, and the fact that you think it is more interesting than most of Chopin's says a lot about you. Another brain dead Alkan fan wowed by the technical difficulty of what at best is a sub-Mendelssohnian piece of noise.
Ad Hominem argument right there, starting to insult people like that doesn't really prove anything...
You obviously do not like Alkan, that is fine. I do. I like Chopin too, but I agree that early alkan has this "Trivial" style to it, you should listen to his Sonata or the op.39 Etudes.
@FranzLisztian I have listened to them. Many times. The third movement of the sonata has its moments. Some of his shorter pieces are quite nicely put together, and his two marches, the Op. 26 and 27 are nice. Yes, it is fine to like Alkan, but to consider him anything more than a moderately interesting sideshow to the development of Romanticism in music, is, at the very least stretching it.
@AndrewFinch1 To address this piece, it is harmonically dull, the textures are monotonous, and development is practically absent. What is so interesting about page after page of tremolo with barely an implied melody? What is interesting about playing octave triplets punctuated by a chord over and over again in different harmonies? I don't get it. Enlighten me. There is no drama in this music.
@FranzLisztian Which one of Chopin's 27 etudes is boring? I'd be interested to find out, since I think that even etudes like Op. 25 No. 9 are more interesting and enjoyable to listen to than any of Alkan's Etudes, with the exception of maybe Comme Le Vent.
@AndrewFinch1 Never mind, I mistook Comme Le Vent for Scherzo Diabolico, the third of the set.. That is an interesting piece. I just listened to 39-1 for the first time in years, and it is a piece of junk, with the harmonic imagination of a Czerny exercise. 39-3 is a nice piece. That's the type of music that Alkan could write well.
@FranzLisztian I've told you, I've listened to Alkan's op. 39 many times in the past, and I just told you that I had listened to op. 39 no.1. The symphonie is rubbish, and when you get rid of the idea of a symphony "for piano", and imagine it orchestrated, it sounds like Mendelssohn on a bad day. The concerto is the most bloated, overwritten piece of music this side of Rubinstein's Ocean Symphony, the Overture is literally the worst overture I've ever heard, and the
@AndrewFinch1 Festin d'Esope, which I liked when I was in my early teens, has such a ridiculously stupid theme, that I can't get worked up over the variations.
Also, these are etudes in name only. A couple of lousy sonatas with a few character pieces mixed together. And I wouldn't trade Chopin's Op. 10 no. 2 for the entire Op. 35 and 39 of Alkan. Liszt was a much better visionary than a composer, but I would say he is more important than Chopin sincet he had an extra 40 years to develop.
Say whatever you want man, but I must say if you wouldn't trade chopin's op. 10/2 for Alkan's op.39 I think you need to rethink...at least that is what I would do.... I agree that Alkan's op.35 is boring, and I never listen to it. op.39 is way superior to the op.35. And while some of Chopin's etudes are good, (op.10/ 1,3, 12, op.25/ 11 and 12 for example) the vast majority of them are just boring and dull exercises. They are not as epic as The Alkan etudes.
@FranzLisztian While I think you probably believe you're being iconoclastic by saying these things about Alkan/Chopin, I know it is more an issue of your not being musically mature yet. I understand that Alkan's music looks wild on paper, and that it is very difficult to play, but if you can look beyond that and listen to it in terms of the actual notes, regardless of how difficult they are to play on the piano, you'll hear an empty shell. It's fun to think you're discovering some kind of
@AndrewFinch1 buried treasure, but Alkan is neither buried (I was listening to him in the 80s), nor is he a treasure. He's just an eccentric that young pianists go wild until they realize that being a musician has little to do with the kind of vapid virtuosity that you find in Alkan's music.
Meanwhile, teenaged pianists all over the world are hurting their technique trying to play music that was written for a 19th century Erard (very light touch) on modern pianos.
Yea, that's a pity the teenaged pianists "hurt their hands" by improperly practising difficult material. I guess you could never hurt your hand with Chopin's etudes or anything, which were also written for an older piano model.
Not engaging in your little nerd fight there about which composer is better - but your assertion that Alkan's music is "empty shell" once you "look past" the technical difficulties, is pure bullshit and indicates you don't really have much of an ear.
@twooffour my point is that its not bullshit. the music behind the technique is not too much i have to say.. but i do think the piece its affective in some way :) bullshit = when the music totally doesnt make sense ( no structure and stuff like that ) and since this piece stil does have the good structure/ harmonies it does make sense.you should say music is bullshit when you can do it better. i just think its very unrespectfull/rude.
its not that im trying to atak u. just sharing thoughts
Well I still don't get why you feel the need to say that to me, considering I was basically saying the same thing... can you please learn to read? It's been a rather useful skill for centuries.
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It is worth noting that this year will be held a competition on the memory of the great composer in Athens! It will be lots of fun and a meeting place for all Alkan enthusiasts!! :D
Just google alkan-zimmerman to get to the official site, youtube doesn't allow me to post links : )
alexilmagnifico 1 week ago
4:34 then you start to question whether Alkan could play his own pieces. Then you remember Liszt stated Alkan had the finest technique he had ever seen, so he probably could have played his own pieces, haha!
masterofmetallica09 3 weeks ago 3
"The Knight" is the perfect description for this piece! I feel like I'm riding on horseback. I love this so freaking much!
AcePro 3 weeks ago
Holy parallel motion, Batman!
SooprBamp 1 month ago
You are highly skilled. I am very impressed.
celebye 1 month ago
This is so flipping AWESOME!!!!!
Hitherto90 2 months ago
Impossible speed for a human.
kzelmer 2 months ago
1:27 Microtones??
twooffour 2 months ago
@twooffour Nope.
712Stephen 1 month ago
@cowzilla8 This is what Chuck Norris whistles.
MsJojokim 3 months ago
where can I get the sheet of this? :D Please reply!
DuhuKaralius 3 months ago
@DuhuKaralius imslp.org has a humongous collection of sheet music from a plethora of composers, even this particular piece :).
regiear1991 3 months ago
@regiear1991 Thanks a lot mate! I owe you one :D
DuhuKaralius 3 months ago
@regiear1991 It's too bad that it doesn't have any Cziffra or Hamelin pieces.
cowzilla8 3 months ago in playlist Favorite videos
@cowzilla8 Yes, it's very disappointing :(. I believe it has to do with copyright issues.
regiear1991 3 months ago
Is this hamelin playing it?
ThePaulinoContreras 5 months ago
@ThePaulinoContreras No, it's midi.
F14Lolcat 4 months ago
@F14Lolcat No. If you read the description at the end, it says the Recording's by Michael Nanasakov.
cowzilla8 4 months ago in playlist cowzilla8's favorites
@cowzilla8 "Michael Nanasakov" is a computer ("digital pianist")
F14Lolcat 4 months ago
@F14Lolcat Sure..............
cowzilla8 4 months ago
@cowzilla8 Yes. The playing follows the score too perfectly, the high register arpeggio chords don't sound right. And it's played too fast. No-one else but Alkan probably could have played it at this speed.
F14Lolcat 4 months ago
@F14Lolcat But, that's not for certain. And, I notice that he played an accent when there wasn't at 4:20. It's humanly possible, just needs a lot of practice and patience.
cowzilla8 4 months ago
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davtones 4 months ago
@cowzilla8 This is actually a digital recording! Nanasakov (dot) com is the "virtual pianist"s webpage if you dont believe it.
davtones 4 months ago
@davtones Really? Cause, I notice a little too long of a pause at 4:46 to be perfect. Or, it's probably just a minor malfunction in the "'virtual pianist' digital recording."
cowzilla8 4 months ago
@cowzilla8 Im sure he puts in small things like that in so it doesnt sound robotic, like the chords starting at 1:44 which arent perfectly even. And if you notice the chords at around 3:02 which are supposed to be arpeggiated are not in this recording which would be literally impossible for a human to play. As far as i am aware the only human who has actually recorded "Le Preux" is Laurent Martin.
davtones 4 months ago
@cowzilla8 The "Virtual Pianist" section of Nanasakov's site talks all about his process of midi sequencing pieces on a computer.
davtones 4 months ago
@davtones All right all right, I get it. But, if you look at the "video responses," Laurent Martin isn't the only "human" who has recorded "Le Preux."
cowzilla8 4 months ago
@cowzilla8 Haha thanks for pointing that out! I thought that Martin was the only one with a studio recording of the piece, but i guess there are others.
davtones 4 months ago
@davtones No problem. I just wish that Hamelin was one of the other ones. It's weird, cause he played so many other Alkan pieces, but not this one. Maybe cause it was too hard for him to be humanly perfect?
cowzilla8 4 months ago
@cowzilla8 Lol hopefully he will play it one day!
davtones 4 months ago
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This gives a better depiction of a horse than Liszt's Mazeppa, this is what I think.
arsviatticae 6 months ago
Comment removed
arsviatticae 6 months ago
Hmmmm, I'm pretty sure that Cziffra could play this at the tempo.
cowzilla8 6 months ago
The heck, is Alkan related to Chuck Norris or something?
cowzilla8 6 months ago 9
@cowzilla8 Possibly. Hell, he even has the beard (as per the picture when he was younger).
regiear1991 6 months ago 7
Duuuuuuuuuuude... Its like Alkan is saying:
"Haha, take that bitches!"
QuoPacto 6 months ago 3
Completely insane, even for Alkan. But I loved it! Thanks.
nyc88s 7 months ago
just to imagine alkan played this once... i wish i could hear it
amxmachine 7 months ago
OMG! This is nuts! That man can play one of Alkan's craziest pieces - a concert etude lasting 7 minutes - in almost 6 minutes?! This man must have been a madman like Alkan as well! *peace*
gsarci2011 7 months ago
@gsarci2011 That's not a man. That's a computer. No-one can play Alkan that fast - Nanasakov sets some impossible targets!
VayDooble 7 months ago
@VayDooble Oh, I see...thanks for pointing that out....
gsarci2011 7 months ago
@VayDooble I bet you Hamelin could.
marcphilos 6 months ago
It is officially my goal for life to learn this piece :D
lamaman94 8 months ago
Video game music before electricity.
GENIUS
Botchlae 9 months ago
Regarding the octaves at the end:
U jelly, Tchaikovsky?
TheNoblestPursuit 10 months ago 23
HOLY CRAP.
i cant imagine anyone playing so fast without their arms hurting like mine do after playing fast -_-''''
SailorVenusLuver1 11 months ago
Great music!!!
and hey, the idiots down there, stop flaming and enjoy this wonderful piece, even Alkan is laughing his ass off because of you two's stupidity.
matthewhhchan0820 11 months ago 25
@matthewhhchan0820 You took the word's out of my mouth brother!!
n64wilbert 6 months ago
Thanks for uploading this.
Also, to the two idiots down there: YouTube is not a battleground. Use private messages.
broadfeor 11 months ago
You should add some extra tags:
not possible no fucking way completly impossible
QuoPacto 11 months ago 3
French? Because the French are incapable of writing early Romantic music. They are trash. Alkan can copy Mendelssohn all he wants, but he's nothing but a footnote to a footnote. I'd rather be shot than have to listen to his shitty "Symphony for Piano" again. It sucks like shit. The harmonies are not even up to the par of Rossini. It is dried dogshit written down by a moron who knew he had to write "weird" music to get noticed.
andrewmcca 1 year ago
@andrewmcca
"French? Because the French are incapable of writing early Romantic music."
Ah, I see.
And "everything sucks like shit".
Not wasting any more of my time on you. Don't you have to practise for your recital?
twooffour 1 year ago
There is no way an idiot like you has perfect pitch. And by the way, your little shit-ass "logic" argument is nothing but a big straw man. You're a fucking joke. I'd love to have a piano duel with you. I'd wipe the shit out of you, you fucking creep. I can play Godowsky etudes at sight, and yeah, they are shitty music, but I can play them, and I'd fuck your ass up, you musical idiot. You fucking worthless Alkan fanboy. I'd LOVE to hear you play. I'd laugh.
andrewmcca 1 year ago
@andrewmcca
"There is no way an idiot like you has perfect pitch."
Well, I do. And you're still trying to win with that card, even though it actually doesn't matter to anything.
"I'd love to have a piano duel with you. I'd wipe the shit out of you, you fucking creep."
Again, doesn't matter here, it wouldn't make your arguments and quality of posting any better.
And your boasting is pretty worthless with 0 Uploads on your channel.
Thanks for confirming your age.
twooffour 1 year ago
@twooffour
Did you know that completely unmusical people have been shown to have perfect pitch in experiments? They're not familiar with the notes, and certainly don't know jack shit about scales, but they can memorize a pitch and then recognize and reproduce it days later.
So perfect pitch isn't dependent on musicality (just as musicianship isn't depend on perfect pitch), and it certainly doesn't have jack shit to do with intelligence - yet here you are, angrily insisting on me...
twooffour 1 year ago
@twooffour
... not possibly having perfect pitch because I'm such an "idiot", because you just can't believe you don't get to claim those insignificant 5 centimeters of pissing distance you so desperately need to "win" this exchange.
You're just so incredibly transparent and pathetic, it's hard to put in words.
Why again should I listen to someone who equates the harmony of, say, Alkan's Concerto, or even Le Vent, to Hanon sequences and rudimentary IV-V-I cadences? Nonsense, all of it.
twooffour 1 year ago
I'm so hurt that some douchebag that can't even tell what chord is being played is getting his panties in a bunch! Alkan is for shit-faced babies like you. You get transported by Hanon exercises played in filled octaves. Good for you. I'd be surprised if you could even play Chopin after wasting your time with this crap music. This I-IV_V music written by a musical idiot!
andrewmcca 1 year ago
@andrewmcca
Yea, right, Le Vent and basically all of Alkan is written in I-IV-V. Do I even HAVE to respond to that? And you read a bunch of his scores, yea?
twooffour 1 year ago
From what I have been reading here, the only one that seems to understand the relationship of the various Romantic composers in context is AndrewFinch, and I generally agree with what he says about Alkan. However, I don't know that I'd call Alkan a hack, though he certainly was no great genious like Liszt was.
andrewmcca 1 year ago
And I think your comments on Chopin's music are more sad than anything else. Chopin's not even my favorite Romantic composer, Schumann is, but it's sad to read one of 19th-Century art music's real treasures being dumped on childishly in favor of a note-spinning hack like Alkan. Liszt and Mendelssohn played Chopin's music in public, they did not play Alkan's music in public. Clara Schumann played Chopin's music in public, she did not play Alkan's. I think that says a lot, you might not.
AndrewFinch1 1 year ago
@AndrewFinch1
Both Clara and Robert highly criticized Liszt for "vapid virtuosity", though, so I guess that excludes him as a valid authority to appeal to ;)
Liszt also thought highly of Alkan and took some influences from him, but you know, he was criticized by Clara, so he doesn't count ;)
twooffour 1 year ago
@twooffour I don't agree that Alkan was a hack, but I think that the music that AndrewFinch is referring in the Schumann context was the music of the 1830s and 1840s, which really was pretty vapid.
andrewmcca 1 year ago
@andrewmcca
Calling Alkan a "note-spinning hack", and not just from two decades or whatever, but, you know, the composer with his entire body of work, is pretty much proof that the person who said it has little understanding of anything.
twooffour 1 year ago
@twooffour I disagree. I don't really see what AndrewFinch said that was so offensive so much as obvious. I don't think that Alkan's music is some kind of litmus test for who has a good ear and who doesn't. I just think it's kind of weird, at times interesting, but certainly not the work of any kind of musical revolutionary.
andrewmcca 1 year ago
@andrewmcca
No comment on the "revolutionary" part, but "note-spinning hack" blatantly contradicts "interesting" or even "weird", it basically just mean musically inept, uninteresting virtuosity display. And that's what he meant by that.
I don't care how "offensive" it is, but it sure is kinda stupid.
twooffour 1 year ago
@twooffour It may be true of some of Alkan's work, but certainly not all of it. At any rate, I don't care that much about it, it's just that he's the only one that said anything of interest on the matter.
andrewmcca 1 year ago
@andrewmcca
Um never said "all of it", but it's a considerable amount, and certainly the majority of his "mainstream" works (you know, the ones clogging up the top videos on Youtube) - for example, I don't find this particular piece musically appealing so far.
Or, what do you mean by "it" again? Is "it" the vapid virtuosity, or the fact that some statement stupid?
twooffour 1 year ago
@twooffour I don't care about Alkan. He's a sideshow. And I don't care about the issue of whether or not Alkan or Chopin was greater. The answer's obvious. And I never said you said "all of it". Probably 90% of Alkan is dried dogshit, and that is being generous.
andrewmcca 1 year ago
@andrewmcca
If you don't care about Alkan, how come you listened to almost all of his works to make the "educated guess" of 90% of his work being "dried dogshit"?
Certainly not 90% of what I've heard - more like that one or two pieces weren't particularly interesting or appealing to me so I shrugged and moved on. The rest being completely awesome.
twooffour 1 year ago
@twooffour I started playing the piano when I was 3 and I had my first concert when I was 8 in Toronto. I don't care about Alkan because, yeah, because of IMDB I've been through a lot of it, not necessarily playing it, but reading it. And most of it is what I call salon-music-with-lots-of-octaves. This music is so harmony-driven, yet the harmonies aren't even particularly interesting. Even his organ music sucks. But I like some of the short character pieces. They're like Mendelssohn.
andrewmcca 1 year ago
@andrewmcca
There's a difference between
1) actively exploring a body of work and finding it uninteresting
2) not caring for, or rather ABOUT it, and
3) find it to be "dogshit", you know.
Guess you're familiar with lots more of his music than I am. So probably I was lucky to have heard the most from the awesome 10%, then ;)
twooffour 1 year ago
@twooffour Thanks for your attempts at whatever it is you're trying to do. Why do you have to hear his music? Why don't you just read through it? It's a lot faster, and you don't have to wait for people to record it.
andrewmcca 1 year ago
@andrewmcca
Um what? You're the one constantly stressing how little you "care" for either this composer or even this issue, and were just mildly awoken from your great indifference by that one guy who at least said somewhat of interest. What are YOU trying to do?
I started by describing perceived artistic qualities in Alkan's music, or the one I know, as an opposition to someone else denying those qualities. Seems pretty straightforward to me.
twooffour 1 year ago
@andrewmcca
I'm basing my opinion on my experience of HEARING a good number of his works in splendid performances. There wasn't any initial impulse to "become familiar with all of Alkan's pieces", and then picking the shortest way of accomplishing that by either listening to recordings or MIDI playbacks, or "reading through the score".
The experience, the input, is already there. I'm now spouting my output ;)
twooffour 1 year ago
@twooffour OK, it's just weird to me because of all the Romantic composers, Alkan has by far the worst shit-to-good-music than anyone, even Liszt. That's why I agree that he's second rate. Reading his work is actually dull because you don't really process all the ridiculous piano writing that he does, just the raw melody and harmony
andrewmcca 1 year ago
@andrewmcca
At the end of the day, I'm only familiar with the minority of his work so far (much like from any other composer atm), so I'm not saying anything about the shit to good ratio of his work, only about the ones I'm familiar with.
As for the second part, I'm afraid I don't get it. Reading through it is duller than listening? How comes you don't process the "ridiculous writing he does" when reading, isn't listening to a good, fluid performance actually blurring the "ridiculous writing"
twooffour 1 year ago
@twooffour It is equally dull. Because there is no need for me to create, in my head, the crude piano textures that Alkan creates to get the idea of the work. The work is the work. It's not like Alkan creates particularly interesting piano textures, they are just hard to play, it's not like Chopin or Liszt, it's just octaves and repeated chords usually.
andrewmcca 1 year ago
@andrewmcca
repeated notes, octaves... trills, tremolos... arpeggios... scales, both in different forms and combinations.... yea.
Let's compare Liszt's Chasse-Neige to Le Vent, and how both use tremolos and chromatic scales. Please tell me where the qualitative difference is.
twooffour 1 year ago
@twooffour I'm not interested in early Liszt. The earliest Liszt I play is the B-minor Sonata, and I don't even think that is a particularly good piece of music. And what difference does Alkan's so-called "influence" really make. Mozart was influenced by J.C. Bach, but what he created was vastly greater than anything that J.C. Bach ever created. What difference does influence in piano texture make? God.
andrewmcca 1 year ago
@andrewmcca
When did I ever talk about influence?? I asked you to compare the two very similar pieces in quality / how they use their textures.
I'm really wondering if you'll try to make the argument that both use the tremolos and chromatics and leaps just on top of the harmony with no real musical purpose behind the difficulty ;)
twooffour 1 year ago
@twooffour The Liszt is much more harmonically interesting, and laid out much better for the piano. This thing that Alkan has put together is just a nonsense piece, not useful as a technical study, and about as interesting as a Czerny exercise. Liszt had ideas, Alkan had technique. I'd rather not listen to either piece, but one of Chopin's etudes.
andrewmcca 1 year ago
@andrewmcca
Okay, I wonder how am I supposed to still take you seriously. How can you call a composition with a clear structure, mood direction and tension arc a "nonsense" piece? How can you call a piece with clearly laid out forms of techniques such as chromatic scales and different forms of tremolos, all integrated into melodical context, not useful as a technical study?
How can you equate a piece of music that conveyes emotional impressions of deep sadness, eerie mysticism...
twooffour 1 year ago
@twooffour Maybe because I'm not an idiot fanboy, that can listen to music objectively without going ga ga for ridiculous piano figurations. This piece has the musical drama of a Hanon exercise. Eerie mysticism? LOL< you have got to be kidding me. This is a fucking salon piece. Maybe it's your inferior musical mind?
andrewmcca 1 year ago
@andrewmcca
I don't believe in mysticism myself (at least I realize that any stuff of that sort has to stand up to objective, scientific scrutiny before being taken seriously, just like everything else), but I do realize and understand the basic fact that music is capable of pressing certain buttons in the human mind, by using various stylistic devices, that produce EMOTIONS and IMPRESSIONS that can be, indeed, described as "mystic", or "heroic", or "humorous", or "romantic", or "furious", or..
twooffour 1 year ago
@twooffour Too bad you don't go for Schopenhauer, oh well. You could maybe hear mysticism in Wagner, but the idea that you could hear it in a piece of shit like this really stretches credulity. You want to like Alkan because it is a trend, therefore you do? Oh, well, I am sick of this shit, this music is utter crap, and I can't stand hearing it every time I click on this video,.
andrewmcca 1 year ago
@andrewmcca
Well, actually I hear mysticism in Le Vent, because I hear mysticism in Le Vent, and frankly, that piece is MADE of mysticism and romantic emotion.
Apart from that, it has a clear structure and arc, and its pianistic textures make complete musical sense.
So not only do you have an awful taste, you also showcase a stunning inability to comprehend basic objective merits. I'm not interested in your accusations of conformism - not one bit.
twooffour 1 year ago
@andrewmcca
"Oh, the organ chords!"
Yes, if you take Chopin's first etude and play the basic chords on the manual (with the bass notes on the pedals), you'll quickly realize how well it fits (even if sort of lacking figuration/melody) there. As much as I love this etude, I actually do find the constant up and down arpeggios with only very little variation a bit dragging.
So, look look, you didn't even get why I mentioned "organ chords", but that doesn't prevent you from coming back with a....
twooffour 1 year ago
@andrewmcca
... vitriolic piece of bullshit sarcasm that doesn't make a shred of sense.
I mean...
"Strike me dead! The organ is sounding! Alkan writes Row Your Boat in Octaves and Thirds, with hand crossing, and oh Lord, it is the reincarnation of Bach! Holy, holy, holy Jesus~"
... what kind of argumentation is THAT??
Hey, are you sure your first recital at 8 wasn't like last week? Because you sure sound like it.
twooffour 1 year ago
@andrewmcca
... or "sarcastic and dry", or, indeed, "spiritual", and I'm happy to use those expressions in application to music whenever I want to.
Attempting to brush that all off by lame, vitriolic attempts at "scornful sarcasm" isn't going to help your point, so no point in even trying.
You just called a clearly structured piece "nonsense". You just compared Le Vent to the generic Czerny etude. You call a bunch of chromatics and tremolos "ridiculous piano figurations" despite each...
twooffour 1 year ago
@andrewmcca
... of them serving a clear musical purpose. Congratulations, you have no foot to stand on. Case closed?
twooffour 1 year ago
@twooffour Yeah, after reading your "critiques" of AndrewFinch's objections to Alkan's music, I understand that you are an illogical idiot. What do I care about having no foot to stand on with you? Keep listening to Mendelssohn in octaves, what the fuck do I care? This music is absolute shit, and so is your mind. I have to practice the Brahms 1st concerto tomorrow morning. Have fun mucking around in this shit.
andrewmcca 1 year ago
@andrewmcca
You say my responses to AndrewFinch are "illogical" and "idiotic", yet you offer no rebuttal whatsoever. You have no foot to stand on = no basis for anything you say.
"Keep listening to Mendelssohn in octaves" = lame, lame hyperbolic, dismissive cop-out for lack of any counterarguments you could offer. Indeed, why should I care about that?
"This music is absolute shit"
So now it's "absolute shit"? Just a few hours earlier, you were like "Alkan's not a hack, but just not really...
twooffour 1 year ago
@twooffour
... a genius." But now, he's "complete and utter dogshit".
Why? I think I know why. You run out of arguments to bring up, and recitals to boast with, so you see the need to take a refuge in over-assertive hyperbole. Like, "I'm really fucking losing my patience, man, you know, I tried being diplomatic 'n shit by admitting that Alkan was just kinda meh okay, but not the best, I even tried to distance myself from someone else's extreme and insulting sentiment about his music, but..
twooffour 1 year ago
... but now, ah fuck that now, no, he was a hack, and his music is absolute horseshit! Like, oh did I say 90% or something? 99%! And the 1% is really just lame. The 99,99999% percent makes me literally puke up dogshit, that's how horrendous it is! and so's your face!!"
Wow, the artist's temperament is really bursting out of ya, isn't it? Go practise your recital and quit flooding this video with your inane bullshit.
twooffour 1 year ago
@twooffour Who gives a shit. You obviously can't play a whit, can't read a score, don't have perfect pitch, and don't know what the fuck you're talking about . You babble about Alkan being mystical as if it's a given, and then just get defensive about your own inadequacies as a musician. What do I give a shit. I can probably play a violin better than you can play a piano. You're one of those fanboys. I detest you.
andrewmcca 1 year ago
@andrewmcca
How well I can play doesn't matter (just recovering from a long tendinitis) - your playing, no matter how good it may be, obviously doesn't help you coming up with tangible arguments, or coming off as older than 14.
I can't read a score? When did you just make it up, when failing to think of any arguments to make the point that the textures in Le Vent are without musical purpose? Well, basically, I can.
I have perfect pitch.
And you're in no position to call my behavior...
twooffour 1 year ago
@andrewmcca
... "defensive" while it's your turn to post back valid counterarguments that consist of more than empty, vitriolic "sarcasm" and ass-pulled insults, and your track record clearly doesn't support you on that one.
I don't give a crap how well you can play the violin. Show, don't tell. In an online debate, you SHOW what you've got by putting thought into your writing, not TELL how awesome of a musician you are in real life which has no bearing on the argument whatsoever.
twooffour 1 year ago
@andrewmcca
As it stands, you've showcased a fatal lack of taste and musical sensitivity that could only be topped by equating the Liebestod to X-Tina's "Genie in the Bottle". And, um, you called a clearly structured piece "nonsense". Still waiting for your justification for that one.
No, not a good impression at all, so far.
twooffour 1 year ago
@twooffour Yeah, i have a lack of taste because I don't like hearing the noise of some shitty French pianist banging away at the piano with music that luminaries like Robert Volkmann would have put aside as too common. And yes, I understand you're jealous, but even your hero, Marc-Andre Hamelin says that those of us gifted with perfect pitch are better musicians. I'm not some fucking pop guitarist, asshole. Your lack of pitch means you can't even improvise with other musicians. Loser.
andrewmcca 1 year ago
@andrewmcca
"And yes, I understand you're jealous."
Again, falls in line with you treating this exchange as nothing but a pissing contest. Make up assumptions about your "opponent", bring up various feats from your biography, and you won't have to worry about bringing up sensible arguments in order to "win". Well... no. Doesn't work that way, I'm sorry.
"some shitty French pianist"
What does it matter if he's French? You're not fucking Rowan Atkinson, get over yourself. Just another...
twooffour 1 year ago
@andrewmcca
... exmample of your horrendously vapid and immature "argumentation skills".
"banging away at the piano"
So referring to a piano piece that is mostly played in pianissimo as "banging away at the piano" is what, to you, exactly? A "logical" statement? A humorous, but true sarcastic hyperbole? Well it's neither, it's a piece of cow excrement that doesn't make a shred of sense.
"as too common"
So now it's just "too common"?
twooffour 1 year ago
@andrewmcca
I thought it was, like, "piece of shit", and "with ridiculous piano figurations", and a "well structured nonsense piece" and "banging away" and all that, but no, apparently it's just not original and adventurous enough.
"Marc-Andre Hamelin says that those of us gifted with perfect pitch are better musicians"
Says he. Apparently. The vast majority of recognized high-caliber pianists don't have perfect pitch, and a good share of music experts would disagree.
twooffour 1 year ago
@andrewmcca
He is often criticized for lack of musicality by others, and while I disagree with that, most certainly not all of his interpretations are superior to those of others.
But hey, scratch that - did you know that Hamelin also speaks very highly of Alkan's music? Certainly far more often than boasting about his perfect pitch. But nvm that - only bother quoting authority figures when it's convenient for you.
Lack of perfect pitch (=relativ pitch) = lack of pitch? Really? Are you...
twooffour 1 year ago
@andrewmcca
... really this fucking dumb?
twooffour 1 year ago
Comment removed
OrangeSodaKing 10 months ago
@andrewmcca
Perfect pitch? What kind of shit is that? Anyone with musical experience would tell you that neither good musicianship nor musical understanding benefit greatly from having perfect pitch, which, depending on type and degree, as well as the musician's particular occupation, can cause at least as many problems as it can solve.
It's not gonna help you in your piano recitals, and it sure ain't gonna enhance any argument you may bring up for anything we're talking about right now.
twooffour 1 year ago
@andrewmcca
And yet, because apparently you happen to have perfect pitch, you start boasting with it just to make yourself appear better in the pissing contest you turned a normal discussion into, for lack of anything really valid to respond with.
Utterly pathetic, and really, really showcases the overall direction you're going here.
twooffour 1 year ago
@andrewmcca
You think if you lose in a competition or whatever and get criticized by professors or jurors, and then yell out "but I have perfect pitch! does he? do you?!", you'll be taken any seriously? Well, same here.
Too bad I happen to have it as well, and let me tell you something - get fucking over it.
twooffour 1 year ago
@andrewmcca
... intimate revelling evolving into passionate longing and melancholic reminiscence, to the bland superficial "twinkle twinkle little star" feel of the vast majority of Czerny etudes?
While Chasse-Neige shows more diversity with the various tremolo textures, my question was how the textures in Le Vent are unjustifiable from a musical viewpoint, and the obvious answer is that they aren't. The chromatics have a clear purpose (or, in fact different purposes) at any given moment.
twooffour 1 year ago
@twooffour Oh, I'm about to burst! Tremoloes in G minor make me swoon! Octave figurations have the power of the mystic! Oh, crossing one's hands to play an idiotic melody is the ultimate of the Gradus ad Parnassum. What a douche you are.
andrewmcca 1 year ago
@andrewmcca
The plain chords in the left, which are eventually "tremolized" (heh) towards the end, have a purpose. The lack of textures and fast notes in the section shortly before the "storm" climax has a purpose.
The slow tremolos in the B section have a musical purpose (and effect), and so do the fast tremolos shortly before the climax.
None of it is "vapid" tech stuff imposed onto the harmony, and none of it is any less justified than, say, the arpeggios in Chopin's op.10/1 as opposed to..
twooffour 1 year ago
@andrewmcca
... the "organ chords" they're clearly based on.
twooffour 1 year ago
@twooffour Oh, the organ chords! Strike me dead! The organ is sounding! Alkan writes Row Your Boat in Octaves and Thirds, with hand crossing, and oh Lord, it is the reincarnation of Bach! Holy, holy, holy Jesus~!
andrewmcca 1 year ago
@andrewmcca
... to a mass and emphasizing melody and harmony, not... looking at the score and torturing yourself through the multitude of notes?
twooffour 1 year ago
@twooffour Unlike with Liszt's music, the way the notes are set out in Alkan doesn't really add to the work. Liszt's music is, at some points, about the way it is written for the piano. Alkan, not so much. Alkan's piano writing is like Mendelssohn on steroids. It is not about the piano, but just about the harmony, but dressed up in stupid textures that are awkward to play.
andrewmcca 1 year ago
Wait, this is actually possible?
nayrregnes 1 year ago
Most people say classical music is boring in general. Those that say Alkan is boring are just like them.
If you can't see the depth in his pieces, don't complain about it - just play your mainstream musical crap and move along.
Xcelerate2 1 year ago
@Xcelerate2 People who know nothing about music think classical music is boring. People who know a little bit about classical music (and play the piano) think that Alkan is incredible. People that know a lot about classical music think Alkan is boring. Get it?
And by the way, Alkan IS mainstream among internet fanboys.
AndrewFinch1 1 year ago
@AndrewFinch1 I disagree with you.
Xcelerate2 1 year ago
@Xcelerate2 Which part do you disagree with? Not all of it I hope, since the first assertion is very similar to your first assertion in the comment that I responded too. However, if you'd just like to disagree in general, that's perfectly fine with me.
AndrewFinch1 1 year ago
@AndrewFinch1 No, I only disagree with the insinuation that less knowledgeable people like Alkan and more knowledgeable people are "above that". Marc-Andre Hamelin seems to like it quite a bit.
Xcelerate2 1 year ago
@Xcelerate2 I am not insinuating anything about you in this, but have you noticed that most Alkan fans are in their late teens to early 20s and often say ridiculous things like "Alkan was greater than (some composer far better than Alkan ever could have been)? It's irritating, it's irrational, and it has the stink of a cult.
The reason that Alkan has remained a secondary or tertiary figure in Romantic music is because that is simply what he was.
AndrewFinch1 1 year ago
@AndrewFinch1
The waltzes are boring, and so are ALL of the nocturnes except maybe one or two. The piano concertos are literally crap.
To me chopin is a great composer, but the majority of his works are boring and overrated (although the majority of Liszt's works are p boring as well, so are alkans...)
Best chopin piece imo is his first ballade, alkans is probably the sonata.
FranzLisztian 1 year ago
@FranzLisztian it takes a real pianist to play Chopin. Mozart plays itself, so does Beethoven, not saying they are less of composers but more popular to the average person. Chopin creates atmosphere and if you as the pianist cant draw that out of the music or even know what it takes your not ready to take on Chopin
anonymousQ45 1 year ago
@anonymousQ45
Stop making it sound like Chopin's music is so special. I am sick and tired of all Chopin fan boys on youtube trying to tell me how I am not musical, mature, deep or in your case not ready to take on chopin.
You want to know something? I like Chopin, but oh wow is he overrated. And his fanboys are even worse.
quit being arrogant, music is subjective and your opinion is literally worthless to me.
FranzLisztian 1 year ago
@FranzLisztian btw your 'waltz' was horrible, no voicing in the chords and bland dynamic i usually dont insult pianists on youtube but after your nasty comments about Chopin i think you deserve it
anonymousQ45 1 year ago
@anonymousQ45
So you are insulting my music after me insulting Chopin's? Isn't that just proving my point that Chopin fans are so incredible annoying?
btw I am not trying to compete with Chopin or any other genius at all....
FranzLisztian 1 year ago
@anonymousQ45
Also please stop making ad hominem arguments
FranzLisztian 1 year ago
@anonymousQ45
Added: I already do play Chopin (A few waltzes, attempted some etudes and the op.35 sonata)
FranzLisztian 1 year ago
@FranzLisztian who are you? what conservatory do you go to? are you even in a conservatory? how many ppl have you played for? do ppl even like the way you play? do you overuse the pedal like most amatuer pianist? oh yeah and who is your favorite composer? im guessing Liszt, one of Chopins best friends and a huge influence at that. you have no idea what your criticizing
anonymousQ45 1 year ago
@anonymousQ45
I am not criticizing Chopin, he is a genius. But he is incredible overrated and his fans are blinded by dull waltzes...
And to answer your questions;
I don't go to a conservatory
No
Like 10-20 max
Yes
Maybe, In some places.
Liszt
FranzLisztian 1 year ago
@FranzLisztian how about we all love the Ballades and Scherzos? how about the technical and musical prowess in the Etudes? how about how everything Chopin at its most basic element is pure music from the heart? maybe us Chopin fans are captured by that
anonymousQ45 1 year ago
@anonymousQ45
You may love chopin as much as you want and yes his music is emotional and all, I am just annoyed by the fact that you say Chopin requires a "real pianist" and that Beethoven and Mozart doesn't... I listen to Chopin's music a lot, and dont' get me wrong I love him. I just dislike that the fans seem to think that they are more special and deeper than those of other composers. You aren't.
FranzLisztian 1 year ago
@AndrewFinch1 I hold no pretentions of Alkan being 'greater' than Mozart, Beethoven or Chopin, but I enjoy him more, something that I believe is a reasonable viewpoint
OverFjell 9 months ago
@OverFjell Everything is greater than Mozart. IMHO
F14Lolcat 7 months ago
@AndrewFinch1 have you noticed most people cant comprehend partial differential equations in thermodynamics and how create a long term self contained cooling element for the electromagnetic generator strapped to a turbine strapped to my miniature fission reactor. it kind of like you not wrapping your head around this piece or any of the fine works you insulted. i am so glad i hear every single bit of this music. i especially love that you are slamming this too. it makes me see how smart i am :)
amxmachine 7 months ago
@Xcelerate2 And as far as MAH goes, his m.o. is to take neglected, technically difficult material for the piano, and using his technique to play it, often very dully. As such, I think many of his choices of repertoire are horrible. Catoire, Alkan, Godowsky, Ornstein, etc. But they fit his business model. He may very well like Alkan, but he really doesn't have much of a choice but to play with what he's done with his career. His mainstream stuff doesn't sell because it's not a freak show.
AndrewFinch1 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Most people say classical music is boring in general. Those that say Alkan is boring are just like them.
If you can't see the depth in his pieces, don't complain about it - just play your mainstream musical crap.
Xcelerate2 1 year ago
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Xcelerate2 1 year ago
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Xcelerate2 1 year ago
So many notes so little music.
AndrewFinch1 1 year ago
@AndrewFinch1
Are you saying that this is unmusical or that it's a short piece compared to the amount of notes?
Because this is not unmusical, this is a far more interesting etude than most of Chopin's, keep in mind that this is a digital recording and not a human performance.
FranzLisztian 1 year ago
@FranzLisztian It is extremely uninteresting, and the fact that you think it is more interesting than most of Chopin's says a lot about you. Another brain dead Alkan fan wowed by the technical difficulty of what at best is a sub-Mendelssohnian piece of noise.
AndrewFinch1 1 year ago
@AndrewFinch1
Ad Hominem argument right there, starting to insult people like that doesn't really prove anything...
You obviously do not like Alkan, that is fine. I do. I like Chopin too, but I agree that early alkan has this "Trivial" style to it, you should listen to his Sonata or the op.39 Etudes.
FranzLisztian 1 year ago
@FranzLisztian I have listened to them. Many times. The third movement of the sonata has its moments. Some of his shorter pieces are quite nicely put together, and his two marches, the Op. 26 and 27 are nice. Yes, it is fine to like Alkan, but to consider him anything more than a moderately interesting sideshow to the development of Romanticism in music, is, at the very least stretching it.
AndrewFinch1 1 year ago
@AndrewFinch1 To address this piece, it is harmonically dull, the textures are monotonous, and development is practically absent. What is so interesting about page after page of tremolo with barely an implied melody? What is interesting about playing octave triplets punctuated by a chord over and over again in different harmonies? I don't get it. Enlighten me. There is no drama in this music.
AndrewFinch1 1 year ago
@AndrewFinch1
Does everything need to be dramatic? I personally find this piece exciting and interesting.
There are plenty of boring and dull Chopin etudes too, you know.......
FranzLisztian 1 year ago
@FranzLisztian Which one of Chopin's 27 etudes is boring? I'd be interested to find out, since I think that even etudes like Op. 25 No. 9 are more interesting and enjoyable to listen to than any of Alkan's Etudes, with the exception of maybe Comme Le Vent.
AndrewFinch1 1 year ago
@AndrewFinch1 Never mind, I mistook Comme Le Vent for Scherzo Diabolico, the third of the set.. That is an interesting piece. I just listened to 39-1 for the first time in years, and it is a piece of junk, with the harmonic imagination of a Czerny exercise. 39-3 is a nice piece. That's the type of music that Alkan could write well.
AndrewFinch1 1 year ago
@AndrewFinch1
Have you even listened to the Concerto and Symphony etudes yet? Or the seventh out of the opus 35?
op.39 12? I would go as far and say that Alkan's op 39 etudes are far more superior than any etudes by Chopin.
FranzLisztian 1 year ago
@FranzLisztian I've told you, I've listened to Alkan's op. 39 many times in the past, and I just told you that I had listened to op. 39 no.1. The symphonie is rubbish, and when you get rid of the idea of a symphony "for piano", and imagine it orchestrated, it sounds like Mendelssohn on a bad day. The concerto is the most bloated, overwritten piece of music this side of Rubinstein's Ocean Symphony, the Overture is literally the worst overture I've ever heard, and the
AndrewFinch1 1 year ago
@AndrewFinch1 Festin d'Esope, which I liked when I was in my early teens, has such a ridiculously stupid theme, that I can't get worked up over the variations.
Also, these are etudes in name only. A couple of lousy sonatas with a few character pieces mixed together. And I wouldn't trade Chopin's Op. 10 no. 2 for the entire Op. 35 and 39 of Alkan. Liszt was a much better visionary than a composer, but I would say he is more important than Chopin sincet he had an extra 40 years to develop.
AndrewFinch1 1 year ago
@AndrewFinch1
Say whatever you want man, but I must say if you wouldn't trade chopin's op. 10/2 for Alkan's op.39 I think you need to rethink...at least that is what I would do.... I agree that Alkan's op.35 is boring, and I never listen to it. op.39 is way superior to the op.35. And while some of Chopin's etudes are good, (op.10/ 1,3, 12, op.25/ 11 and 12 for example) the vast majority of them are just boring and dull exercises. They are not as epic as The Alkan etudes.
FranzLisztian 1 year ago
@FranzLisztian While I think you probably believe you're being iconoclastic by saying these things about Alkan/Chopin, I know it is more an issue of your not being musically mature yet. I understand that Alkan's music looks wild on paper, and that it is very difficult to play, but if you can look beyond that and listen to it in terms of the actual notes, regardless of how difficult they are to play on the piano, you'll hear an empty shell. It's fun to think you're discovering some kind of
AndrewFinch1 1 year ago
@AndrewFinch1 buried treasure, but Alkan is neither buried (I was listening to him in the 80s), nor is he a treasure. He's just an eccentric that young pianists go wild until they realize that being a musician has little to do with the kind of vapid virtuosity that you find in Alkan's music.
Meanwhile, teenaged pianists all over the world are hurting their technique trying to play music that was written for a 19th century Erard (very light touch) on modern pianos.
AndrewFinch1 1 year ago
@AndrewFinch1
Yea, that's a pity the teenaged pianists "hurt their hands" by improperly practising difficult material. I guess you could never hurt your hand with Chopin's etudes or anything, which were also written for an older piano model.
Not engaging in your little nerd fight there about which composer is better - but your assertion that Alkan's music is "empty shell" once you "look past" the technical difficulties, is pure bullshit and indicates you don't really have much of an ear.
twooffour 1 year ago 15
@twooffour i love you for your respect of Alkan
StinkyBritches52 9 months ago
@twooffour
i know there isnt much music behind the techniques. but if you think its bullshit thats YOUR opinion. not a fact ;).
but he wrote a lot that DOES have the music behind the technique :).
hjiuhfhrehui 6 months ago
@hjiuhfhrehui
So then what's your point?
twooffour 6 months ago
@twooffour my point is that its not bullshit. the music behind the technique is not too much i have to say.. but i do think the piece its affective in some way :) bullshit = when the music totally doesnt make sense ( no structure and stuff like that ) and since this piece stil does have the good structure/ harmonies it does make sense.you should say music is bullshit when you can do it better. i just think its very unrespectfull/rude.
its not that im trying to atak u. just sharing thoughts
hjiuhfhrehui 6 months ago
@hjiuhfhrehui
Well I still don't get why you feel the need to say that to me, considering I was basically saying the same thing... can you please learn to read? It's been a rather useful skill for centuries.
twooffour 6 months ago
@twooffour
again : a short version of my point is : dont say its bullshit. its to rude/ unrespectfull :P
and i tried to explain why you shoudnt say its bullshit.
ok. ?
thats all
hjiuhfhrehui 6 months ago