An organization made to instill leadership and righteous morals in the young men of America uses Native american ceremonies to teach these values, so you surmise that this group is intentionally desecrating another group of people. Knowing this you intentionally and deliberately make a video to share with the whole world that has the intent of desecrating another group of people(the BSA), isn't that hypocritical?
If it was so bad native americans would be doing something about it. Second I have been to many thing were native americans them selfs help with the "cult" like ceremonies. Third you have no idea what your talking about and Fourth that wouldnt even be racist this is. Why is there a nigger at 1:37
Come On? Really? I'm in boy Scouts it isn't perfect, as is everything is, but it ain't racist, I know for a fact the things they do with the stuff "based off the Indians" Is incorrect by a large angle, but it ain't racist.
Cult like ceremonies??? Oh come on do you know how assaine you sound. However a question if you please. I am part Native American. I also belonged to the OA. SO ANSWER THESE QESTIONS What part of me is raciest? How much Native American blood do I have to have in order to claim to be Native American. And last but not least who is it who decides just how much blood I have to have to be called Native American? 3/4? 1/2? 1/4? 1/8? 1/16? 1/32? 1/64? Just once I would like
@seawolfe52 Just because you're great, great grandma was a Cherokee princess doesn't make you native. No real native would allow their children to associate with this bull shit organization. Lastly, the part of you that is racist is probably the same part that can't spell racist. Maybe you should spend more time on learning to spell rather than cheaply ripping off a culture.
@anishinaabe Well pretty much as I figured. All you could do is throw insults and stomp your little feet in child like defiance. You really need to grow up and learn to think for yourself. Im still waiting for you to answer the questions? And no my great grandmother was not a cherokee princess but my grandfather was a Navajo code talker. My father fought in Nam . My uncle died there and both belonged to OA and so did I. Before shouting your Ignorance again ask yourself who's the real racist
@anishinaabe y know, i was going to rip on this guy for making a dumb comment. but it seems that you made one even more idiotic. i dont want to be rude, but is it not native american teaching that we are all brothers? because that is what i was taught. and where i come from when your brother is in a dilemma, or asking somthing you do not reply with negativity. so he cant spell, politely correct him. so his english is not as good as yours, then teach him. one more thing.
@WaagooshTheRedFox english is not a native american language. why dont you try insulting somone in your "native" tongue if your so down with the native american communists. and yes, 90% of all pre contact native american tribes and nations were communist, and not like russia either. communist in the true sense of the word communist. the base word of communist is? community. which means the community determines the outcome, and slef governs.
Wow, really? Do you not know what the so called ceremonies are for???? They are meant to honor the heritage of this land. As an Eagle Scout and a member of Order of the Arrow I found this to be offensive and very misconstrued. Very poorly put together and uninformative, if you don't have the information to back up these false claims I would be greatful if you kept your allegations to yourself.
@anishinaabe I agree with @bdel03. I also am an Eagle Scout and member of the Order of the Arrow (OA). Our "cult-like" ceremonies are used to call out and honor scouts that best exemplify the teachings of the Scout Oath and Law, and that have great respect for the land. NEVER, in my seven years as a Boy Scout and five as a Cub Scout has disrespect or racism ever been taught or encouraged toward Native Americans. We have, however, been taught to respect them and to exemplify their way of life
@bdel03 well, invading the Indian territory, performing close to mass genocide on the race, evicting them of their home, the Trail of Tears, and then donning their tradition... I wouldn't call it racist, but a mockery. Its like a spit in their grave. Should you be insulted? After the Indians.
This is a poorly made video. Aside from your ridiculous claims, I would encourage you to look into the Koshare Indian Dancers of La Junta, CO. They make every effort to be historically accurate and culturally respectful. They are not allowed to use specific types of feathers and may not do specific dances/rituals They are not being racist and/or disrespectful. As it is, they are simply trying to make the general public more culturally aware. If you find this to be criminal, go punch yourself
Do you really think that we need you to make people more aware of us? This is the kind of arrogance that pisses off real ndns in the first place.
Our culture belongs to us we dont typically share our traditions. Three suckers just died in some fake sweat that some idiot charged them $9,000.00 to attend. It's offensive and even dangerous to try to mimic a culture that you have no understanding of.
i hope you burn in hell. we're not mocking it, we're trying to simulate it the best we can. would you LIKE us to hire real indians to do a ceremony for us? and another thing, your tax dollars don't go support boyscout troops. we have to support ourselves by selling popcorn and christmas trees. where the fuck did you get the idea that you pay us with your tax dollars?
The government lets you use publicly owned land for free, or near free. That's how our tax dollars are spent to support this nonsense. YOU ARE NOT NATIVE, so no I don't want you to "hire an Indian". It's comical how you think that you can just hire someone to host a ceremony and how you use the word "Indian" to describe someone who hosts ceremonies. You don't even know what they're called. YOU ARE NOT ONE OF US if you took off the fake ass bonnet maybe you could get that through your head.
first off, i wasn't planning on hiring a native american. what i meant was that you're saying we're not native american, so we shouldn't be allowed to do ceremonies of native american heritage. so i was being sarcastic by saying that you might want us to rent an indian to make it an authentic ceremony.
second, we don't use public land for free. we go to camps that are made for scouting or other high adventure groups, and we pay the same goddamn price to use the place.
the government doesn't let us use publicly owned land for free, and your tax dollars don't go to the camps. the land is renovated and preserved using the money that is given by scouting to use the land for activities. they even receive donations and sometimes the land itself is donated to scouting, for example Philmont scout ranch, which was given to BSA by Waite Phillips. aside from your fake proof that you taxes go to us, you're giving scouting a bad name.
i admit, our native american ceremonies are a tad corny, but you have the fucking nerve to call us RACIST. we are not mocking it, we are respecting it, we are trying to simulate and celebrate it the best we can, so just lay off BSA and keep your hate for us scouts far, far, far up your ass. also, what do you mean "YOU ARE NOT ONE OF US"? and we don't have "fake ass bonnets". you accuse us of using land at your expense which isn't at all true, then say we're racist by performing native ceremonies
and if we have to pay to use the land, example: Camp Winton. where we PAY to get into the camp, how the fuck is it publicly owned land? if you don't pay, you don't get in. that doesn't sound so PUBLIC to me. even if we're not "native" it doesn't mean we can't perform native american ceremonies. besides, doing indian lore related activities isn't ALL we do. you're accusing scouts of being a bad organization, just because we seem racist by performing indian ceremonies. you have no evidence.
Seriously, calling anyone a racist is comical after that line. There is a LOT of racism out there, yes. But the boy scouts attempt to be aware of cultures, and to pay homage. Whether that offends you is your issue.
Putting on stereotypical clothing of any group may be ignorant and even insensitive, but it's NOT racism. Hatred that is based upon race - that being the race of either party involved - is racism. If YOU hate people for their race, then YOU are the racist.
The U.S. Army gives the BSA special access to a base, Fort A.P. Hill, for its national Scout jamboree and the U.S. Department of Defense spends approximately $2 million per year in taxpayer funds to assist the BSA in staging it. On April 4, 2007 the US Court of Appeals overturned a lower court ruling on the basis of a lack of standing to sue, thus allowing the 2010 and future Jamborees to go forward with continued DOD support .
okay, that's one example, but your hateful video is directed to us being racist. how can you call us racist just because we perform ceremonies and some of your taxes go to an air force base for scouts. just because of your stupid accusations, you believe scouts is a racist organization. out of curiosity, are you a scout? because if you aren't, you wouldn't know anything about scouting that well. if you just stopped your hate for us, and saw that our organization is meant for more that pow wows
i meant more THAN pow wows. and I have a filthy vocabulary? YOU have a video of a guy humping a turtle. you're a hypocrite if you tell me i have a filthy sense of vocabulary. furthermore, you're a lying, 29 year old that hates scouting for no reasons at all. i'm a 14 year old star scout, trying to defend my organization from this retarded video and your ridiculous accusations. BSA isn't just going to air force bases and doing indian lore, we do things that mean something to us, and have fun.
@OptimisPrimeRib maybe, just maybe research more about the Native Indians that existed in North America before and after Christopher Columbus arrive. A lot of natives were killed and taken in as slave. Not to mention plague and Opium brought over from Europe. Boy, you're only 14yrs old. You should really dig into the history of how America is created. The Good and the Bad.
Research "Trail of Tears". Its a good kick start with lesser vulgarity. You're not THAT American w/ limited knowledge.
@Vehement00 Its not racist, but a huge mockery. You choose to be ignorant and perceive the way you believe is really up to you. I know my American history and it takes the bad to become what is not good, but mediocre of today.
@Vehement00 fuck off, this argument was between me me and anishiaabe. i was infuriated by his video because he is falsely accusing the boy scouts of being racist towards native americans. we're not like that, and our organization tries to learn native american culture. your reply to my comment has absolutely nothing to do with what i was saying to the idiot who made this video. now stay out of other people's business. by the way, i'm turning 16, you dumb fuck.
@OptimisPrimeRib I wouldn't consider you racist by the way you put it, but it does clearly show how ignorant you are. Btw, this is youtube. If you want to beef with the guy, you should PM him. I wouldn't say so much as learning, but stealing another culture is more like it. So much swearing from a 16 years old boyscout, they must give you a badge for that.
oh, and another thing, air force bases aren't exactly open to the PUBLIC. and it's still not free for scouting because we have to pay admission to get in.
i'll take your 3 days of silence and not responding to my comments as a sign of defeat. i've won this argument and you have nothing to say, now shove your hatred for boy scouting up your ass.
What a retarded video. So every kid thats ever dressed up like Native American is f-ing racist? These might take the cake as the dumbest political video on Youtube.
and another thing. i think i could almost gaurantee that if it weren'r for the BSA, alot of the intrest in native american culture that it would only. ONLY be notice by native americans them selves. a lil fact for ya. here at the university of Illinois, the 1st requirement for some1 to dance as ceif illiniwek was to be a eagle scout, which by its self means u have respect and understand the native americans.
ok u kno what.. they dont wear to offend anybody or to participate in a "cult" like ceremony. it resembles real cerimonoes that took place long ago. not word for word but the idea is the same. u need to calm down and realize that what we do in boy scouts really helps ppl. not a thing of racism. i'm so close to eagle and its the best acheivment any1 can get in 1's life time in many ppl;s perspective.but trying to bring the BSA down by calling them racist... we have nothin but respect for them.
group presented their first show in the basement of the St. Andrew's Episcopal Church for a holiday party. From that beginning, the group went on to steal the concept of the sacred kiva and eventually built a so-called kiva for their use. The taking of what was not rightfully theirs has continued to this day. See the Koshare Indian Museum web site for more information about what the BSA has done with respect to the museum and its so-called Koshare Indians.
First of all, I would like to thank you all for providing a most stimulating argument to challenge my views. I would encourage you all to take action with the Boy Scouts of America to correct the wrongs that you see occuring. Further research that I did has shown that there are some issues regarding the use of Indian traditions in Order of the Arrow ceremonies. What I saw also showed that the BSA is more than willing to listen to the concerns of natives and take action to correct issues.
In fact, the BSA has adopted a policy to reduce the use of native culture in its proceedings. This is not to say that it will eliminate them entirely, but it will work to make them more respectful of native culture. However, the only way that the BSA can rectify the situation is with the assistance of people like yourselves. Once more I encourage you to contact the BSA with your concerns. It would be more than happy to here from you.
Classic, thanks for your latest comments. Some of the problems go well beyond OA activities. I've been to countless pow-wows where BSA members have shown up in costume claiming a right to dance any dance they chose not just during an "inter-tribal everyone" dance. When challenged due to lack of tribal enrollment required for all dancers, these individuals claimed they had a right based on BSA membership. These same people and their troop also actively encourage other non-American Indians to
dress-up and dance at pow-wows. In addition, they have held fund raisers, conducted presentations and appeared in parades misrepresenting themselves as being Native American dancers. The troop has been contacted by many American Indians about what has happened but nothing has changed. The troop leaders claim that their members have done nothing wrong and point to the fact that one American Indian family in the area supports their activities. Such support isn't surprising given the fact that the
family receives money for being one of the drums at BSA pow-wows.
The so-called Koshare Indian Museum is even more distressing. In its own words, the museum website states: "Scouting is also an important part of the program. The museum serves as a troop meeting location, a youth center, an overnight hostel for thousands of scouts and school youth throughout the year, a center for many local Scouting and civic activities." The group has been around for
75 years, actively misrepresenting themselves as being supported by American Indians in the museum's "interpretation of Southwest and Plains tribal art and artifacts." The museum has dancers who travel worldwide using the deceptive title of "Koshare Indian Dancers". The dancers are not American Indian. Instead, they are the result of a 1933 meeting of non-American Indians who decided to form a boy scout Indian club patterned after Troop 10 of Colorado Springs. In September of 1933, the
The BSA as an organization encourages only activities and practices which are approved by the culture from which they originate. any irresponsible use of regalia by people within the org. is simply the fault of those individuals, which can be said of almost anything. Simply put, if you have a problem that is actually related to policies of the OA as an organization, take it up with them...Youtube battles are fairly pointless if you have an actual point to make.
I agree with you..The OA has a requirement to get brotherhood and that is to look up and do reports on the History of the American Indians. The BSA doesnt not show any type of Racism toward American Indians..They boys are interested in the history and love the American Indians
The debate may seem absurd to those that are not American Indian. It is not to those who are.
"They came for our land, for what grew or could be grown on it, for the resources in it, & for our clean air & pure water. They stole these things from us, & in the taking they also stole our free ways & the best of our leaders, killed in battle or assassinated. And now, after all that, they've come for the very last of our possessions; now they want our pride, our
history, our spiritual traditions. They want to rewrite and remake these things,claim them for themselves. The lies and thefts just never end." -- Margo Thunderbird (Shinnecock Tribe)
I've watched the video and read all the comments. Everyone would benefit from reading the section on the boy scouts in Playing Indian, a book written by Vine Deloria, Jr. The book discusses the orgin of the boy scouts and related matters. It also explains why American Indians have such strong feelings about the organization.
You (dotsuwa4) are right. Vine Deloria's son wrote the book. Have you noticed that you usually call me dear cousin only when you want to point out something? I'm always your dear cousin. Aye . . . .
Lighten up man!You always get so emotional in theses discussions.If I was there I would smack you with my bagpipes. (actually, I do have a banjo and a didgeridoo)Here is the bad news though; because we are all Americans, our cultures are somewhat blended. We all share in each others cultures to an extent. It's okay. So you know, cotton bails are way too big to sling over one's shoulders. Don't be so militant, it is unseemly.
As a proud member of the Order of the Arrow, a service organization devoted to the promotion of the ideals of scouting, I can honestly say that I have never encountered anything that could possibly be construed as racist. The ceremonies of the Order are conducted with an air of utmost solemnity and complete silence is observed. Every effort is undertaken to preserve the integrity of the traditions portrayed. The accusations made here are completely baseless.
Hey Anish, I'm OA as well. Get a better scapegoat than the scouts. You just seem silly picking on the BSA. Good grief, It isn't like the Boy Scouts or the OA is picking on you for dressing like a white man while you are humping a fiberglass turtle! You don't seem like a bad sort, just be careful that you aren't indulging in reverse racism. Later.
First of, it's not me humping the turtle dip shit. He is a white guy (friend of mine). Reverse racism my ass, if you idiots were dressing as slaves with shabby clothes shackles and cotton bails slung over your shoulders while singing negro-spirituals, you'd be torn apart. This is no different and something needs to be done about it.
Leave my culture alone, you don't know anything about it. Get some bagpipes or something.
Look, I am tremendously sorry for the crimes that my ancestors perpetrated against yours. What was done was not right, and the situation has not yet been rectified. That does not give you excuse to twist media in order to detract from organizations that you dislike. Nor does it give you right to insult me for defending my views, for that matter
No classic, the CONSTITUTION gives me the right. You people dressing in ridiculous costumes trying to play injun while not having the first idea of what being native is disgusts me, as it does the majority of real natives.
Answer me these two questions please. First of all, what tribe are you? Second of all, what tribe does the OA specifically seek to emulate? I feel those answers could perhaps bring some enlightenment to this conversation
The user i.d. for the person who posted the video tells you his tribal affiliation, which is Anishinaabe. The Anishinaabe also have been referred to as Ojibwe (Ojibwa) or Chippewa.
The traditions depicted by the OA are part of the Leni Lenape tradition. I would suggest that the fact that Anish does not know of the traditions may be related to the fact that he is part of a different tribe.
That could be the case, classic. It could also be that what OA thinks is part of Leni Lenape (Delaware) tradition really isn't tradition at all. If it is tradition, I have a big problem with non-American Indians taking and using something that isn't theirs. To me, it's akin to my reading certain books, talking to some Catholics and giving myself the right to conduct mass on Sunday. I have no right to do that never would disrespect a group of people that way. (continued)
BTW, one of my cousins read a comment posted for the video and has contacted legal counsel for the Delaware nation to find out if the tribe actually supports BSA and OA, and whether Delaware culture and traditions are being used by such organizations.
The first part of comment should read to do that and never would. I left out the word and.
You know nothing about Scouting. Boy Scouts honor our native American history and traditions in every way. Scouting promotes many of the same issues associated with American Indians such as brotherhood, honor, protecting the land, self reliance, personal responsibility, and I could go on and on. I'll list the 12 points of the scout law for you, Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent. Wish others conducted themselves....
It's not your history or traditions. I've seen some of the scouts "native gatherings" and they aren't even our traditions. With your vast knowledge of native customs can you tell me anything that you can think of that the scouts do that do no reflect native beliefs?
Hey now, I'm in Boy Scouts, and I have great respect for Native Americans... I know that when some people dress up in Native American styles of dress they don't do it to be mean and arrogant, they do it out of remembrance for these great people and the awesome land on which we camp. After all, we are all "Native" to "America". And I'm sorry if you feel offended when all we do is show respect for your people. In all my years of scouting, I've only heard nice things said about your people. Peace
Hey- I am really trying to get to some common ground with you on this issue, so don't ever think that I am intentionally being obtuse. It is just a very emotion-charged area... I would like to see it from your perspective, and I hope you will give me the same back. I bet I talk to you more than the Cleveland Indians do. (I wouldn't want my name on that team either)
The only "team name" that I have a problem with is the Washington Redskins. That is an unbelievably grotesque thing to call a sports team. It is the equivalent of "Detroit Niggers" or "LA Spicks". The Indians, Blackhawks, Chiefs, etc I don't have a problem with, the mascots that some of them use, however, are abhorrent.
hittin' the rack here in a bit. How about Tecumseh engines, Pontiac cars,Big Chief tablets, the board game Wahoo. Crud , no one can undo every unfortunate turn of events for sure. The BSA on the other hand, (since I was 8 years old) has never tried to cast Indians in a bad light. If the OA is doing some stuff wrong, point out the discrepancies. They would probably much rather be doing something authentic. Hittin' the hay now, Take it easy.
...To call the BSA racist, is quite possibly the most ignorant thing that I have ever heard. To assume that some agenda is in place to undermine the Ojibwa, or any other culture is incorrect. Teaching respect for American Indian culture is an active component of the BSA culture. Again, if this is indeed important to you, consider participating and contributing. Disrespect was never, ever intended. I respectfully await your response.
To teach kids about slavery is one thing, but to dress them up in shackles with painted whip scars on their backs and cotton bails slung over their shoulders is a completely different thing.
Well, I don't think that the BSA is trying to portray the Indians as slaves. Since many tribes kept captured enemies as slaves though, perhaps they could have been dressed thiss way. Again though, I would encourage you to weigh the good values of the BSA against what might be some unfortunate choices in particular Indian depictions. To construe this as teaching racism, how can you put something as somber and respectful as the Order of the Arrow on par with say RedMan Tobacco or Cleveland Indians
I think that you missed the point of the slavery analogy 4L6. The vast majority of real Natives abhor the OA. I'm familiar with the history of what you call slavery of Indian enemies and that wasn't the case at all. If you use outright lies in your arguments I will simply block you. Natives never kept slaves. It was against most tribe's logic, though different tribes have different cultures most rejected the idea of forcing another person to work for them.
Come on Anish! Don't block me, because I think that we agree on a lot more that we disagree on. History, (real history) shows that for the most part Indians got a raw deal.
The history taught in public schools is slanted pretty heavily towards whatever the political agenda of the day is. I know a decent amount of Indian history, not as much as you do I'm sure, but I sure wasn't trying to say anything unfriendly here. I just think that there is far more sinister racism than you see in the BSA.
Well, Anishinaabe, it's pretty easy to apply some label like racism to a conservative organization like the BSA. The BSA includes anyone who wants to join and agree to abide by the Scout Law and the Scout Oath. Here is an idea for you. Why not go after the Village People, who dressed a gay fellow up like an Indian Chief? Quit whining. Lose your "victim mentality". (This is continued as I am running out of space.)
Obviously whoever did this video didn't do any research into what they were looking at. The Order of the Arrow is an honor society which is completely voluntary. The ceremonies and regalia are loosely based on the Lenne Lenape (Deleware) tribe. The Deleware are fully aware of and supportive of the OA. If you don't believe me, ask them. Their headquarters are in Bartlesville, OK. They do not wear the regalia to make fun of the tribe, but to honor them and their support of the BSA.
i'm a brotherhood member of OA. members dedicate their time and resources to serving others. I'm a ceremonialist for Tom Kita Chara lodge the best lodges in the country. Local Native Americans enjoy watching our ceremonies and say that it gives them a sense of pride for their culture. one man even said that he grew sick of all the other tribe members complaining that they are being discriminated against, so he left the reservation. i bet you're just angry cause you never got in.
Hawk9792, I'd like to know the specific tribes in Wisconsin that you claim enjoy watching the "ceremonies" your group conducts and state that the "ceremonies" give them a sense of pride for their culture. I'm completely unaware of anything to support your claims. To the contrary, the Ojibwe (St. Croix, Red Cliff, Lac Courte Oreilles, Las du Flambeau, Bad River & Sokaogon) Oneida, Ho-Chunk, Potawatami, Menominee and Stockbridge-Munsee have all expressed opposition to such activities.
If you truly honor and respect the Lenni Lenape (Delaware) people, you should spell their names correctly. BTW, one of my cousins has contacted legal counsel for the tribe to find out whether there is any truth to your claims about the tribe supporting OA.
A mere typographical error. This debate is absurd. When two cultures collide, each integrates aspects of the other into its own way of life. This is exactly what is happening here. The Boy Scouts are the least stereotypical group using Native American culture as a part of its program. The courteous Boy Scouts respect the Native American culture as much as is possible from the outside. To truly fix the lack of respect the public has for native culture, target the public. The
as a boy scout camp staff member who works daily with the OA, I must wonder where all this backlash came from. we had a bonnet made for us by a local tribe and we alwasy check with them beofre makeing any modificatiosn to the ceremony that they approved. Please, if you want to rag on the BSA pick a more rational reason, like their outward homophobia and religiously discriminate policies.
Those issues have gotten plenty of press. Simply because an Indian tried to sell our culture doesn't mean that the tribe condones it. Among traditionals the use of these things is a slap in the face to the people who have earned the right to wear them.
well, if someone is selling your culture, and the bsa, who is genuinly trying to be sensitive is geting thir approval from those sout individuals, then the problem is with them, not the BSA.
Okay Ruffhouse, to specifically address to Homophobia, well... who you are,or do, is your business. Keep it to yourself. You are aware the the Scouts as well as the Catholic Church had to deal with some pretty bad incidences with child molestion. So the gay folks who were "way out of the closet" took the hit. Society in general does not distinguish between those who are gay, and those who are pederasts. I have plenty of gay friends. Some are involved in scouting. It is no big deal.
native Americans are indians. You are born as a son of pioneers who came over with pretty less respect for native americans and much respect for exploiting mother earth.
i been to a scouts Powwow n they are ridiculous! i don't know if i should die laughing or cry or smack them up ... wow ... good job on the video anishinaabe!!!
The Boy Scouts motivation is not to mock your culture but to revere and respect it. I think your problem is you can't relate to what's in others' hearts, your resentments block you from feeling empathy for others. What you label racism is not.
Once again halo you are lying to try to prove a bogus point. I have never accused whites of being racist. I do however find the boy scouts mocking of our culture to be racist.
What would be your definition of racist in this context. Whatever the scouts use of ceremony and garment would be innocent and nieve, nothing disrespectful intended, in fact those type of ceremonies are usually rites of passage and advancement. It's basically a boys club that teaches high ideals, servival skills, good citizenship don't make it something evil.
I'm sorry you were unable to have the experience of being a boy scout, as smart as you are, you probably would have been a good one. I wish you would use your talents for positive pursuits.
They are not naive. Most natives are appalled by how they dishonor our warriors with the sacrilegious use of these objects. Red Clouds son tried to wear his fathers bonnet into battle and was attacked by his own people because he had no right to wear it. Our ancestors would roll over in their graves if they saw what the scouts were doing.
You ought to feel honored that the boy scouts try to copy and preserve some of the native american traditions, conservation, reverance for the land and nature, honor and nobility. You really misunderstand the heart and intention of the BSA in using these articles and ceremonies they are really quite innocent. Nothing at all disrespectful intended.
That's the thing eezyone, they are not preserving it. What they are doing is rearranging it. Their take on our ceremonial regalia is purely aesthetic to them, but to us it is sacred. I used to teach groups of boy scouts about the culture. When I heard of some of the things that they teach to these children, I ceased to do so.
I'll concede the point that they may be wrong in using the cermonial regalia without the proper understanding. I still think they are naive. What do they teach that upset you so much?
The "secret ceremonies" that they have teaches gives the impression that that is the way that we conduct our spiritual business. We don't do that at all. The bigotry that they teach also is not of Native origin.
The BSA teaches brotherly love and comradary you may not like them borrowing indian symbol for their ceremonies but there is nothing racist about them. As far as the bigotry I think it's childish to call everyone that believes that two man should not have sexual relations bigots, it goes against God's original plan for mankind.
It's racist because of their lack of respect for a culture that was nearly wiped out by a genocide committed by their ancestors. I don't think that it's bigotry to have religious beliefs. I do however find it to be bigoted that these people discriminate against people because of this belief an that they try to shove it down our throats. There isn't one shred of proof that their bible is factual. There for it can not be used as a legitimate argument.
I don't believe they think they're being disrespectful they probably think the opposite. Sexual orientation is changeable there is abundant documentation that people change all the time it's more influenced by environmental factors. Religions have to do with people's experience of the divine and they are evolving as people learn and mature the creator is limited as to how much he can reveal himself to us by our lack of maturity and false preconcieved ideas.
It is not changeable there are several people who say that they have changed there's a difference between bisexual and gay and science has shown that to try to change it is harmful. There is no reason for anyone to change it. I couldn't be happier with who I am and I wouldn't change it for the world.
Many have changed and the APA activists have misrepresented the science and research. I'm glad you're happy but haveing sex with someone of the same gender is not what the creator intended for us but is a result of the fall of man and the result of several factors messing with your socialization process growing up. There are research results that people have changed from several countries and through out history. Its not harmful, when done correctly.
Who's misrepresenting the science? There is no proof at all that any type of "creator" even exists. To meddle with peoples lives, based on a fairy tale is absolutely harmful.
Any reasonable man can see the proof that God exists, the order and beauty of the universe, all the beautiful life forms, spontainious generation can't explain even how male and female could develope or why. Life developes with purpose and direction all the multitude of life forms didn't happen by chance even your ancestors would agree with that.
There is no magical man in the sky there is a mind and heart and guiding force in all existance. Humans where given the gift of being Lords of creation. In other words we where given responsibility to perfect ourselves and govern the physical world with wisdom and love, but a error took place at the begining of human history and selfcentered love ruled instead of living for the sake of others like the creator envisioned.
You have no proof of any of the statements that you just made. How can you believe something so strongly that is nothing more than a story, and has nothing to back it up?
There is plenty to back it up all cultures throughout history have some belief in spiritual existence and many people of different cultures and countries have spiritual experiences the spirit world is real and more vast than this one. Where do you think feelings, thoughts and dreams come from and man's reason and creativity.
You ask about the proof I have to back up my statements. I have experienced the spirit world and the presence of God. All of our ancestors that have gone before us live in the spiritual world on some level, some closer to God than others, it all depends on what kind of life we live here. This world is meant to be our school of love, our families are very important.
That which blocks you from a relationship with your creator is absolutely harmful. God transends all religions and all people are his children and all creation is his handywork made from his energy. The marxist homosexual movement meddles with peoples lives based on immorality and half truths all the time. And that is absolutely harmful, killing people spiritually, spreading their lies.
It religious zealots that are meddlesome. Gays just want to live their lives with the same rights as everyone else. Religion kills people both spiritually and physically. You can't say that god transcends religion when supposedly god created it in honor of himself, furthermore, many religions charge their believers with the mission of murdering others with a different religious belief.
I can't disagree with you on many points but much of the religions were created by man. God has been able to work through the religions to raise man up to a higher level of intellect and morality but many mistakes where made by hard hearted and faithless men. False pride, arrogance, resentment, immorality, selfishness,etc. kills people spiritually and physically
Arrogance? You just put all religions on Earth under that of your own by claiming that not only was someone of God (I take it you're talking the Christian god with the capitol G) morally better than other cultures, but actually was more intelligent than anyone of any other religion in the world by being part of it(we're talking billions of people). That is arrogance if I've ever seen it.
voidhawkSL; There is one God for all people, all existence, all life, that original being is perceived differently by different people at different times in different cultures according their level of understanding and spiritual growth, What are you trying to tell me? all human kind are kin. One family under God Aju.
Polytheism is invalid. To oversimplify, God created the heavens and the earth, and everything in them. That means you and me. He sent his son to bring us salvation from our poor choices. To think that each force of nature is the domain of a separate deity is not logical. That would mean that the universe was designed by committee, something that probably wouldn't work too well. Not every point of view is valid. While a person can have their own opinion, they can't have their own facts.
Your religion is no more valid or logical than that of the ancient Greeks, Egyptians, Incas, or the Zoroastrians. To think that there is an all powerful omniscient deity who needed to have his son tortured to forgive sins is illogical. If he were real then why not just forgive them without nailing his son to a tree till he slowly died of exposure. If you think that your god is real, then you must also concede that he is a sadist. Your superstitions are just as invalid as anyone else's.
Me again. You must be thrilled. I agree with you 99.9% on this issue. More blood has been spilled over religion than anything else in history. Religion was indeed created by man. I can't see too many of them that are worth the time, yet I seek a closer relationship with God. Puzzle on that a while.
We allow whites to our powwows. Our most sacred ceremonies however are ours and unlike other religions we don't push our beliefs on others. We keep out ways to ourselves.
A scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courtious, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent this is what scouts strive for. BSA teaches religious and racial tolerance, respect for elders, patriotism, good character developement, etc. The person that made this video knows nothing about scouting and probably stands for no higher ideal then selfish individualism.
This is so true I worked as a leader in the Boy scout movement for years as a cub den leader & went to all the Boy Scout meetings which included the cub scouts. Thnks for your post
Do you only try to find fault with everyone? You don't seem to be able to see the good in others when you have the right leadership the BSA teaches good character and does a lot of good. What good do you do?
First off I don't spread my charitable deeds all over the Internet like some. I prefer to keep my charity to myself thank you. Only a person who has something to hide would go around bragging about all the good that they have done.
Any way, (about your "Mormons don't discrimination" statement. I said that you use your religion to discriminate against others. I said nothing about "christian churches". You discriminated against blacks in the past and you discriminate against blacks now.
another black offered the closing prayer their aare others that are teaching the children others are teaching the youth. I once attended a Mormon church in Memphis Tennessee where most of the congregation were blacks. They are now taking an active part in all Mormon meetings.
"Mormons don't discriminate against any christian church"... That is a bogus statement halo. All churches discriminate against all other churches except the non-denominational ones. If you are a Jew, you can not receive communion at a catholic church. If you are a christian, you can not have a bris for your child. If you are a protestant you can not even attend a Mormon service. This by definition is discrimination.
This is so untrue they are allowed to take the sacrament(communion) in the mormon church along with the rest of us. I have neighbors who are black & they are mormons. Get a life & don't be so biased
I never said that he was excommunicated because he was an Indian. It's obvious that it was because he was a child molester. I am appalled however that you would make such a racist statement. The subject is the boy scouts use of war bonnets without knowing their significance. To mention an NDN child molester implies that he is a child molester because he is an NDN.
This is not true I have never in my 74 yrs of being a mormon heard such a thing. If such a thing happens the7y are excommunicated immeadeatly. You better have proof for such outlandish statements
There are plenty of gay Mormons halo. You can read stories about them everywhere. You may think that your magic underwear protects you from the evil of two boys kissing but that's not the case. The emotional abuse that you people but your gay children through is disgusting and if there is a hell I hope people like that rot in it.
What do you know about magic underwear? You criticise the boy scouts of america for demonstrating he indian headress because it is sacred & then you criticise mormon underwear what is wrong with you
anish ; I don't know why I shared that with you. I never confronted the man and am friends of the fammily. We've all had bad things happen to us and our family members. It's time to forgive and move on and learn how to be a true human being transending race, religion and nationality. The Creator and our ancestors are counting on us and watching.
Of course you don't want anyone discriminating against your religion yet you use your religion to discriminate against others. I'm sorry but that's not OK with me.
You are entitled to your opinion. Mormons never discriminate against others Do realize that the Mormons are the first to give relief to those that are victims of floods hurricanes or other castrophys. Did you know that the Mormons have a church in Africa. I know for sure because their are members in my ward who have lived in Africa(Blacks)They have parents who visit us from time to time. On the doors of our chapels is a message all visitors welcome(this includes blacks
anish you are reading something into this that isn't true. I agree with eezyone. you are so mixed up. I don't like discrimation either but i feel that you are discriminating against Mormons & you just don't know the real truth about them
anishinaabe I have several native american friends and none of them believes the way you do. It's time to learn how to work together with the groups on the side of the light. Whatever you've been through I hope you can learn to forgive others and try to see from their point of view.
lol I bet that I have more NDN friends than you buddy. I'll never see from an irrational hateful point of view. It's time that people just stop using religion to mask their bad behavior, To justify their wrongdoings, and to cope with their guilt.
I know my culture and I know the culture that the BSA tries to pass off as ours and believe me they are not the same. The BSA discriminates against gays which is something that the native tribes that they mock have never done. We believe gays to be closer to god because gays (Nish-Manitoug) Have insight from the perspectives of both genders. Nish-Manitoug are of the few people who have the right to give a name, and hold high positions in our most sacred ceremonies.
I neever knew that but in the Bible in Genesis it says that God created Male & Female & they were told to multiply & replenish the earth. Now how can Gays do that & beleive in God
Well, the bible is not enough. There are more religions in the world than just Christianity or Mormonism. It's arrogant to believe that everyone should be forced to follow yours especially when it promotes the atrocities that it does.
There's nothing on your list that Jesus promotes. The church being made up of people on all levels of understanding and maturity has made all all kinds of mistakes due to ignorance and sin and selfishness. Like Jesus said no one is righteous no not one. But it has been a great force for good in this world too.
abnishinaabe I am trying to understand where you are coming from what atrocities are preached in any Christian church. Maybe your an atheist(do not believe in God) If so Christians & Mormons are entitled to their own beliefs
Halo123dot123, I believe that your comment about "learning Indian dances" is due to lack of knowledge not maliciousness. There is a great deal wrong with non-American Indians learning and doing "Indian dances." Certain dances are part of scared ceremony for a specific purpose. Such dances are not to be done absent appropriate prayer or for any purpose other than the ceremony being done. Ceremonial dances are not to be seen by the public. (continued in additional comment)
In general, all American Indians must be given the right to dance. Such right is given only after a determination that an individual is worthy of that right and/or ceremony is conducted. American Indians must have knowledge of the ways of his or her tribe and clan (family group within the tribe). Tribal and clan ways have a definite impact on dance and regalia style.
In short, dancing without properly being given the right to dance is theft and completely disrespectful to American Indians.
An organization made to instill leadership and righteous morals in the young men of America uses Native american ceremonies to teach these values, so you surmise that this group is intentionally desecrating another group of people. Knowing this you intentionally and deliberately make a video to share with the whole world that has the intent of desecrating another group of people(the BSA), isn't that hypocritical?
Yoyo24seven 4 months ago
WWW
LucasAReed1997 7 months ago
If it was so bad native americans would be doing something about it. Second I have been to many thing were native americans them selfs help with the "cult" like ceremonies. Third you have no idea what your talking about and Fourth that wouldnt even be racist this is. Why is there a nigger at 1:37
MRconner84 9 months ago
@MRconner84 I rest my case.
anishinaabe 9 months ago
Really Also Simple as this if you don't have anything ice to say don't say it, or The Golden Rule, Do unto others as you would have them do to you.
ManoLoloabloy 11 months ago
Come On? Really? I'm in boy Scouts it isn't perfect, as is everything is, but it ain't racist, I know for a fact the things they do with the stuff "based off the Indians" Is incorrect by a large angle, but it ain't racist.
ManoLoloabloy 11 months ago
Order of the Arrow are like bed bugs, silently they creep and engorge themselves until fat with bastardized traditions.
quicksilverwade 1 year ago
The only racism in this video is your political correctness soon to be tossed on the scrap heap of defunct dogma.
PropagandaBuster 1 year ago
Cult like ceremonies??? Oh come on do you know how assaine you sound. However a question if you please. I am part Native American. I also belonged to the OA. SO ANSWER THESE QESTIONS What part of me is raciest? How much Native American blood do I have to have in order to claim to be Native American. And last but not least who is it who decides just how much blood I have to have to be called Native American? 3/4? 1/2? 1/4? 1/8? 1/16? 1/32? 1/64? Just once I would like
an intelligent answer
seawolfe52 1 year ago
@seawolfe52 Just because you're great, great grandma was a Cherokee princess doesn't make you native. No real native would allow their children to associate with this bull shit organization. Lastly, the part of you that is racist is probably the same part that can't spell racist. Maybe you should spend more time on learning to spell rather than cheaply ripping off a culture.
anishinaabe 1 year ago
@anishinaabe Well pretty much as I figured. All you could do is throw insults and stomp your little feet in child like defiance. You really need to grow up and learn to think for yourself. Im still waiting for you to answer the questions? And no my great grandmother was not a cherokee princess but my grandfather was a Navajo code talker. My father fought in Nam . My uncle died there and both belonged to OA and so did I. Before shouting your Ignorance again ask yourself who's the real racist
seawolfe52 1 year ago
@anishinaabe y know, i was going to rip on this guy for making a dumb comment. but it seems that you made one even more idiotic. i dont want to be rude, but is it not native american teaching that we are all brothers? because that is what i was taught. and where i come from when your brother is in a dilemma, or asking somthing you do not reply with negativity. so he cant spell, politely correct him. so his english is not as good as yours, then teach him. one more thing.
WaagooshTheRedFox 10 months ago
@WaagooshTheRedFox english is not a native american language. why dont you try insulting somone in your "native" tongue if your so down with the native american communists. and yes, 90% of all pre contact native american tribes and nations were communist, and not like russia either. communist in the true sense of the word communist. the base word of communist is? community. which means the community determines the outcome, and slef governs.
so. baamapii, gawiimiigwech. gawii nidoo anishinaabe
WaagooshTheRedFox 10 months ago
u have your Facts all wrong OPEN YOUR EYES did the boy scouts kick you out or somethimg
1SinisterUrge 1 year ago
Wow, really? Do you not know what the so called ceremonies are for???? They are meant to honor the heritage of this land. As an Eagle Scout and a member of Order of the Arrow I found this to be offensive and very misconstrued. Very poorly put together and uninformative, if you don't have the information to back up these false claims I would be greatful if you kept your allegations to yourself.
bdel03 1 year ago
@bdel03 1. As an Ojibwa I'm offended at your crappy imitation of my culture.
2. I don't see how a racist picture can be misconstrued.
3. The video is staying up so it looks like you're not going to be grateful.
4. You spelled grateful wrong.
anishinaabe 1 year ago
@anishinaabe I agree with @bdel03. I also am an Eagle Scout and member of the Order of the Arrow (OA). Our "cult-like" ceremonies are used to call out and honor scouts that best exemplify the teachings of the Scout Oath and Law, and that have great respect for the land. NEVER, in my seven years as a Boy Scout and five as a Cub Scout has disrespect or racism ever been taught or encouraged toward Native Americans. We have, however, been taught to respect them and to exemplify their way of life
gandalfJB2 1 year ago 2
@bdel03 well, invading the Indian territory, performing close to mass genocide on the race, evicting them of their home, the Trail of Tears, and then donning their tradition... I wouldn't call it racist, but a mockery. Its like a spit in their grave. Should you be insulted? After the Indians.
Vehement00 1 year ago
This is a poorly made video. Aside from your ridiculous claims, I would encourage you to look into the Koshare Indian Dancers of La Junta, CO. They make every effort to be historically accurate and culturally respectful. They are not allowed to use specific types of feathers and may not do specific dances/rituals They are not being racist and/or disrespectful. As it is, they are simply trying to make the general public more culturally aware. If you find this to be criminal, go punch yourself
dannyddog22 2 years ago
Do you really think that we need you to make people more aware of us? This is the kind of arrogance that pisses off real ndns in the first place.
Our culture belongs to us we dont typically share our traditions. Three suckers just died in some fake sweat that some idiot charged them $9,000.00 to attend. It's offensive and even dangerous to try to mimic a culture that you have no understanding of.
anishinaabe 2 years ago
i hope you burn in hell. we're not mocking it, we're trying to simulate it the best we can. would you LIKE us to hire real indians to do a ceremony for us? and another thing, your tax dollars don't go support boyscout troops. we have to support ourselves by selling popcorn and christmas trees. where the fuck did you get the idea that you pay us with your tax dollars?
OptimisPrimeRib 2 years ago
The government lets you use publicly owned land for free, or near free. That's how our tax dollars are spent to support this nonsense. YOU ARE NOT NATIVE, so no I don't want you to "hire an Indian". It's comical how you think that you can just hire someone to host a ceremony and how you use the word "Indian" to describe someone who hosts ceremonies. You don't even know what they're called. YOU ARE NOT ONE OF US if you took off the fake ass bonnet maybe you could get that through your head.
anishinaabe 2 years ago
first off, i wasn't planning on hiring a native american. what i meant was that you're saying we're not native american, so we shouldn't be allowed to do ceremonies of native american heritage. so i was being sarcastic by saying that you might want us to rent an indian to make it an authentic ceremony.
second, we don't use public land for free. we go to camps that are made for scouting or other high adventure groups, and we pay the same goddamn price to use the place.
OptimisPrimeRib 2 years ago
the government doesn't let us use publicly owned land for free, and your tax dollars don't go to the camps. the land is renovated and preserved using the money that is given by scouting to use the land for activities. they even receive donations and sometimes the land itself is donated to scouting, for example Philmont scout ranch, which was given to BSA by Waite Phillips. aside from your fake proof that you taxes go to us, you're giving scouting a bad name.
OptimisPrimeRib 2 years ago
i admit, our native american ceremonies are a tad corny, but you have the fucking nerve to call us RACIST. we are not mocking it, we are respecting it, we are trying to simulate and celebrate it the best we can, so just lay off BSA and keep your hate for us scouts far, far, far up your ass. also, what do you mean "YOU ARE NOT ONE OF US"? and we don't have "fake ass bonnets". you accuse us of using land at your expense which isn't at all true, then say we're racist by performing native ceremonies
OptimisPrimeRib 2 years ago
and if we have to pay to use the land, example: Camp Winton. where we PAY to get into the camp, how the fuck is it publicly owned land? if you don't pay, you don't get in. that doesn't sound so PUBLIC to me. even if we're not "native" it doesn't mean we can't perform native american ceremonies. besides, doing indian lore related activities isn't ALL we do. you're accusing scouts of being a bad organization, just because we seem racist by performing indian ceremonies. you have no evidence.
OptimisPrimeRib 2 years ago
"YOU ARE NOT ONE OF US"?
Seriously, calling anyone a racist is comical after that line. There is a LOT of racism out there, yes. But the boy scouts attempt to be aware of cultures, and to pay homage. Whether that offends you is your issue.
Putting on stereotypical clothing of any group may be ignorant and even insensitive, but it's NOT racism. Hatred that is based upon race - that being the race of either party involved - is racism. If YOU hate people for their race, then YOU are the racist.
OgdenZero 2 years ago
You're a liar and you have a filthy vocabulary.
The U.S. Army gives the BSA special access to a base, Fort A.P. Hill, for its national Scout jamboree and the U.S. Department of Defense spends approximately $2 million per year in taxpayer funds to assist the BSA in staging it. On April 4, 2007 the US Court of Appeals overturned a lower court ruling on the basis of a lack of standing to sue, thus allowing the 2010 and future Jamborees to go forward with continued DOD support .
anishinaabe 2 years ago
okay, that's one example, but your hateful video is directed to us being racist. how can you call us racist just because we perform ceremonies and some of your taxes go to an air force base for scouts. just because of your stupid accusations, you believe scouts is a racist organization. out of curiosity, are you a scout? because if you aren't, you wouldn't know anything about scouting that well. if you just stopped your hate for us, and saw that our organization is meant for more that pow wows
OptimisPrimeRib 2 years ago
i meant more THAN pow wows. and I have a filthy vocabulary? YOU have a video of a guy humping a turtle. you're a hypocrite if you tell me i have a filthy sense of vocabulary. furthermore, you're a lying, 29 year old that hates scouting for no reasons at all. i'm a 14 year old star scout, trying to defend my organization from this retarded video and your ridiculous accusations. BSA isn't just going to air force bases and doing indian lore, we do things that mean something to us, and have fun.
OptimisPrimeRib 2 years ago
@OptimisPrimeRib maybe, just maybe research more about the Native Indians that existed in North America before and after Christopher Columbus arrive. A lot of natives were killed and taken in as slave. Not to mention plague and Opium brought over from Europe. Boy, you're only 14yrs old. You should really dig into the history of how America is created. The Good and the Bad.
Research "Trail of Tears". Its a good kick start with lesser vulgarity. You're not THAT American w/ limited knowledge.
Vehement00 1 year ago
@Vehement00 Its not racist, but a huge mockery. You choose to be ignorant and perceive the way you believe is really up to you. I know my American history and it takes the bad to become what is not good, but mediocre of today.
Vehement00 1 year ago
@Vehement00 fuck off, this argument was between me me and anishiaabe. i was infuriated by his video because he is falsely accusing the boy scouts of being racist towards native americans. we're not like that, and our organization tries to learn native american culture. your reply to my comment has absolutely nothing to do with what i was saying to the idiot who made this video. now stay out of other people's business. by the way, i'm turning 16, you dumb fuck.
OptimisPrimeRib 1 year ago
@OptimisPrimeRib I wouldn't consider you racist by the way you put it, but it does clearly show how ignorant you are. Btw, this is youtube. If you want to beef with the guy, you should PM him. I wouldn't say so much as learning, but stealing another culture is more like it. So much swearing from a 16 years old boyscout, they must give you a badge for that.
Vehement00 1 year ago
oh, and another thing, air force bases aren't exactly open to the PUBLIC. and it's still not free for scouting because we have to pay admission to get in.
OptimisPrimeRib 2 years ago
i'll take your 3 days of silence and not responding to my comments as a sign of defeat. i've won this argument and you have nothing to say, now shove your hatred for boy scouting up your ass.
OptimisPrimeRib 2 years ago
What a retarded video. So every kid thats ever dressed up like Native American is f-ing racist? These might take the cake as the dumbest political video on Youtube.
Fishstyx3 2 years ago
so ya... u got so many facts against this video u might as well delete it, u FAIL... lol
kylebB78 2 years ago
and another thing. i think i could almost gaurantee that if it weren'r for the BSA, alot of the intrest in native american culture that it would only. ONLY be notice by native americans them selves. a lil fact for ya. here at the university of Illinois, the 1st requirement for some1 to dance as ceif illiniwek was to be a eagle scout, which by its self means u have respect and understand the native americans.
kylebB78 2 years ago
ok u kno what.. they dont wear to offend anybody or to participate in a "cult" like ceremony. it resembles real cerimonoes that took place long ago. not word for word but the idea is the same. u need to calm down and realize that what we do in boy scouts really helps ppl. not a thing of racism. i'm so close to eagle and its the best acheivment any1 can get in 1's life time in many ppl;s perspective.but trying to bring the BSA down by calling them racist... we have nothin but respect for them.
kylebB78 2 years ago
group presented their first show in the basement of the St. Andrew's Episcopal Church for a holiday party. From that beginning, the group went on to steal the concept of the sacred kiva and eventually built a so-called kiva for their use. The taking of what was not rightfully theirs has continued to this day. See the Koshare Indian Museum web site for more information about what the BSA has done with respect to the museum and its so-called Koshare Indians.
uweyvi7 3 years ago
First of all, I would like to thank you all for providing a most stimulating argument to challenge my views. I would encourage you all to take action with the Boy Scouts of America to correct the wrongs that you see occuring. Further research that I did has shown that there are some issues regarding the use of Indian traditions in Order of the Arrow ceremonies. What I saw also showed that the BSA is more than willing to listen to the concerns of natives and take action to correct issues.
classicrockforever5 3 years ago
In fact, the BSA has adopted a policy to reduce the use of native culture in its proceedings. This is not to say that it will eliminate them entirely, but it will work to make them more respectful of native culture. However, the only way that the BSA can rectify the situation is with the assistance of people like yourselves. Once more I encourage you to contact the BSA with your concerns. It would be more than happy to here from you.
classicrockforever5 3 years ago
Classic, thanks for your latest comments. Some of the problems go well beyond OA activities. I've been to countless pow-wows where BSA members have shown up in costume claiming a right to dance any dance they chose not just during an "inter-tribal everyone" dance. When challenged due to lack of tribal enrollment required for all dancers, these individuals claimed they had a right based on BSA membership. These same people and their troop also actively encourage other non-American Indians to
uweyvi7 3 years ago
dress-up and dance at pow-wows. In addition, they have held fund raisers, conducted presentations and appeared in parades misrepresenting themselves as being Native American dancers. The troop has been contacted by many American Indians about what has happened but nothing has changed. The troop leaders claim that their members have done nothing wrong and point to the fact that one American Indian family in the area supports their activities. Such support isn't surprising given the fact that the
uweyvi7 3 years ago
family receives money for being one of the drums at BSA pow-wows.
The so-called Koshare Indian Museum is even more distressing. In its own words, the museum website states: "Scouting is also an important part of the program. The museum serves as a troop meeting location, a youth center, an overnight hostel for thousands of scouts and school youth throughout the year, a center for many local Scouting and civic activities." The group has been around for
uweyvi7 3 years ago
75 years, actively misrepresenting themselves as being supported by American Indians in the museum's "interpretation of Southwest and Plains tribal art and artifacts." The museum has dancers who travel worldwide using the deceptive title of "Koshare Indian Dancers". The dancers are not American Indian. Instead, they are the result of a 1933 meeting of non-American Indians who decided to form a boy scout Indian club patterned after Troop 10 of Colorado Springs. In September of 1933, the
uweyvi7 3 years ago
I agree entirely with this.
The BSA as an organization encourages only activities and practices which are approved by the culture from which they originate. any irresponsible use of regalia by people within the org. is simply the fault of those individuals, which can be said of almost anything. Simply put, if you have a problem that is actually related to policies of the OA as an organization, take it up with them...Youtube battles are fairly pointless if you have an actual point to make.
Ruffhouse789 3 years ago
I agree with you..The OA has a requirement to get brotherhood and that is to look up and do reports on the History of the American Indians. The BSA doesnt not show any type of Racism toward American Indians..They boys are interested in the history and love the American Indians
ridingtimes 2 years ago
The debate may seem absurd to those that are not American Indian. It is not to those who are.
"They came for our land, for what grew or could be grown on it, for the resources in it, & for our clean air & pure water. They stole these things from us, & in the taking they also stole our free ways & the best of our leaders, killed in battle or assassinated. And now, after all that, they've come for the very last of our possessions; now they want our pride, our
(continued)
Tawodi7 3 years ago
history, our spiritual traditions. They want to rewrite and remake these things,claim them for themselves. The lies and thefts just never end." -- Margo Thunderbird (Shinnecock Tribe)
Tawodi7 3 years ago
I've watched the video and read all the comments. Everyone would benefit from reading the section on the boy scouts in Playing Indian, a book written by Vine Deloria, Jr. The book discusses the orgin of the boy scouts and related matters. It also explains why American Indians have such strong feelings about the organization.
uweyvi7 3 years ago
My dear cousin uweyvi7, I think you meant to say Philip J. Deloria (the son of Vine Deloria, Jr.) wrote the book Playing Indian.
dotsuwa4 3 years ago
You (dotsuwa4) are right. Vine Deloria's son wrote the book. Have you noticed that you usually call me dear cousin only when you want to point out something? I'm always your dear cousin. Aye . . . .
uweyvi7 3 years ago
Lighten up man!You always get so emotional in theses discussions.If I was there I would smack you with my bagpipes. (actually, I do have a banjo and a didgeridoo)Here is the bad news though; because we are all Americans, our cultures are somewhat blended. We all share in each others cultures to an extent. It's okay. So you know, cotton bails are way too big to sling over one's shoulders. Don't be so militant, it is unseemly.
4L60E 3 years ago
As a proud member of the Order of the Arrow, a service organization devoted to the promotion of the ideals of scouting, I can honestly say that I have never encountered anything that could possibly be construed as racist. The ceremonies of the Order are conducted with an air of utmost solemnity and complete silence is observed. Every effort is undertaken to preserve the integrity of the traditions portrayed. The accusations made here are completely baseless.
classicrockforever5 3 years ago
As a proud member of the Order of the Arrow, you are a twat.
anishinaabe 3 years ago
Hey Anish, I'm OA as well. Get a better scapegoat than the scouts. You just seem silly picking on the BSA. Good grief, It isn't like the Boy Scouts or the OA is picking on you for dressing like a white man while you are humping a fiberglass turtle! You don't seem like a bad sort, just be careful that you aren't indulging in reverse racism. Later.
4L60E 3 years ago
First of, it's not me humping the turtle dip shit. He is a white guy (friend of mine). Reverse racism my ass, if you idiots were dressing as slaves with shabby clothes shackles and cotton bails slung over your shoulders while singing negro-spirituals, you'd be torn apart. This is no different and something needs to be done about it.
Leave my culture alone, you don't know anything about it. Get some bagpipes or something.
anishinaabe 3 years ago
Look, I am tremendously sorry for the crimes that my ancestors perpetrated against yours. What was done was not right, and the situation has not yet been rectified. That does not give you excuse to twist media in order to detract from organizations that you dislike. Nor does it give you right to insult me for defending my views, for that matter
classicrockforever5 3 years ago
No classic, the CONSTITUTION gives me the right. You people dressing in ridiculous costumes trying to play injun while not having the first idea of what being native is disgusts me, as it does the majority of real natives.
anishinaabe 3 years ago
Answer me these two questions please. First of all, what tribe are you? Second of all, what tribe does the OA specifically seek to emulate? I feel those answers could perhaps bring some enlightenment to this conversation
classicrockforever5 3 years ago
The user i.d. for the person who posted the video tells you his tribal affiliation, which is Anishinaabe. The Anishinaabe also have been referred to as Ojibwe (Ojibwa) or Chippewa.
dotsuwa4 3 years ago
The traditions depicted by the OA are part of the Leni Lenape tradition. I would suggest that the fact that Anish does not know of the traditions may be related to the fact that he is part of a different tribe.
classicrockforever5 3 years ago
That could be the case, classic. It could also be that what OA thinks is part of Leni Lenape (Delaware) tradition really isn't tradition at all. If it is tradition, I have a big problem with non-American Indians taking and using something that isn't theirs. To me, it's akin to my reading certain books, talking to some Catholics and giving myself the right to conduct mass on Sunday. I have no right to do that never would disrespect a group of people that way. (continued)
dotsuwa4 3 years ago
BTW, one of my cousins read a comment posted for the video and has contacted legal counsel for the Delaware nation to find out if the tribe actually supports BSA and OA, and whether Delaware culture and traditions are being used by such organizations.
The first part of comment should read to do that and never would. I left out the word and.
dotsuwa4 3 years ago
... get a thick skin.
i get shit all the time.
NinjaMasterNight 3 years ago
You know nothing about Scouting. Boy Scouts honor our native American history and traditions in every way. Scouting promotes many of the same issues associated with American Indians such as brotherhood, honor, protecting the land, self reliance, personal responsibility, and I could go on and on. I'll list the 12 points of the scout law for you, Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent. Wish others conducted themselves....
Proudscout1 3 years ago
It's not your history or traditions. I've seen some of the scouts "native gatherings" and they aren't even our traditions. With your vast knowledge of native customs can you tell me anything that you can think of that the scouts do that do no reflect native beliefs?
anishinaabe 3 years ago
Hey now, I'm in Boy Scouts, and I have great respect for Native Americans... I know that when some people dress up in Native American styles of dress they don't do it to be mean and arrogant, they do it out of remembrance for these great people and the awesome land on which we camp. After all, we are all "Native" to "America". And I'm sorry if you feel offended when all we do is show respect for your people. In all my years of scouting, I've only heard nice things said about your people. Peace
minorthreat10 3 years ago
Hey- I am really trying to get to some common ground with you on this issue, so don't ever think that I am intentionally being obtuse. It is just a very emotion-charged area... I would like to see it from your perspective, and I hope you will give me the same back. I bet I talk to you more than the Cleveland Indians do. (I wouldn't want my name on that team either)
4L60E 3 years ago
The only "team name" that I have a problem with is the Washington Redskins. That is an unbelievably grotesque thing to call a sports team. It is the equivalent of "Detroit Niggers" or "LA Spicks". The Indians, Blackhawks, Chiefs, etc I don't have a problem with, the mascots that some of them use, however, are abhorrent.
anishinaabe 3 years ago
hittin' the rack here in a bit. How about Tecumseh engines, Pontiac cars,Big Chief tablets, the board game Wahoo. Crud , no one can undo every unfortunate turn of events for sure. The BSA on the other hand, (since I was 8 years old) has never tried to cast Indians in a bad light. If the OA is doing some stuff wrong, point out the discrepancies. They would probably much rather be doing something authentic. Hittin' the hay now, Take it easy.
4L60E 3 years ago
...To call the BSA racist, is quite possibly the most ignorant thing that I have ever heard. To assume that some agenda is in place to undermine the Ojibwa, or any other culture is incorrect. Teaching respect for American Indian culture is an active component of the BSA culture. Again, if this is indeed important to you, consider participating and contributing. Disrespect was never, ever intended. I respectfully await your response.
4L60E 3 years ago
To teach kids about slavery is one thing, but to dress them up in shackles with painted whip scars on their backs and cotton bails slung over their shoulders is a completely different thing.
anishinaabe 3 years ago
Well, I don't think that the BSA is trying to portray the Indians as slaves. Since many tribes kept captured enemies as slaves though, perhaps they could have been dressed thiss way. Again though, I would encourage you to weigh the good values of the BSA against what might be some unfortunate choices in particular Indian depictions. To construe this as teaching racism, how can you put something as somber and respectful as the Order of the Arrow on par with say RedMan Tobacco or Cleveland Indians
4L60E 3 years ago
I think that you missed the point of the slavery analogy 4L6. The vast majority of real Natives abhor the OA. I'm familiar with the history of what you call slavery of Indian enemies and that wasn't the case at all. If you use outright lies in your arguments I will simply block you. Natives never kept slaves. It was against most tribe's logic, though different tribes have different cultures most rejected the idea of forcing another person to work for them.
anishinaabe 3 years ago
Come on Anish! Don't block me, because I think that we agree on a lot more that we disagree on. History, (real history) shows that for the most part Indians got a raw deal.
The history taught in public schools is slanted pretty heavily towards whatever the political agenda of the day is. I know a decent amount of Indian history, not as much as you do I'm sure, but I sure wasn't trying to say anything unfriendly here. I just think that there is far more sinister racism than you see in the BSA.
4L60E 3 years ago
Well, Anishinaabe, it's pretty easy to apply some label like racism to a conservative organization like the BSA. The BSA includes anyone who wants to join and agree to abide by the Scout Law and the Scout Oath. Here is an idea for you. Why not go after the Village People, who dressed a gay fellow up like an Indian Chief? Quit whining. Lose your "victim mentality". (This is continued as I am running out of space.)
4L60E 3 years ago
That gay fellow is a Native. His name is Felipe Rose. What makes you think that he was dressed as a chief?
anishinaabe 3 years ago
Obviously whoever did this video didn't do any research into what they were looking at. The Order of the Arrow is an honor society which is completely voluntary. The ceremonies and regalia are loosely based on the Lenne Lenape (Deleware) tribe. The Deleware are fully aware of and supportive of the OA. If you don't believe me, ask them. Their headquarters are in Bartlesville, OK. They do not wear the regalia to make fun of the tribe, but to honor them and their support of the BSA.
flupelo1 3 years ago
i'm a brotherhood member of OA. members dedicate their time and resources to serving others. I'm a ceremonialist for Tom Kita Chara lodge the best lodges in the country. Local Native Americans enjoy watching our ceremonies and say that it gives them a sense of pride for their culture. one man even said that he grew sick of all the other tribe members complaining that they are being discriminated against, so he left the reservation. i bet you're just angry cause you never got in.
Hawk9792 3 years ago
Hawk9792, I'd like to know the specific tribes in Wisconsin that you claim enjoy watching the "ceremonies" your group conducts and state that the "ceremonies" give them a sense of pride for their culture. I'm completely unaware of anything to support your claims. To the contrary, the Ojibwe (St. Croix, Red Cliff, Lac Courte Oreilles, Las du Flambeau, Bad River & Sokaogon) Oneida, Ho-Chunk, Potawatami, Menominee and Stockbridge-Munsee have all expressed opposition to such activities.
uweyvi7 3 years ago
The third sentence should say Lac du Flambeau not Las du Flambeau. My apologies.
uweyvi7 3 years ago
If you truly honor and respect the Lenni Lenape (Delaware) people, you should spell their names correctly. BTW, one of my cousins has contacted legal counsel for the tribe to find out whether there is any truth to your claims about the tribe supporting OA.
dotsuwa4 3 years ago
A mere typographical error. This debate is absurd. When two cultures collide, each integrates aspects of the other into its own way of life. This is exactly what is happening here. The Boy Scouts are the least stereotypical group using Native American culture as a part of its program. The courteous Boy Scouts respect the Native American culture as much as is possible from the outside. To truly fix the lack of respect the public has for native culture, target the public. The
classicrockforever5 3 years ago
Order of the Arrow is not the issue.
classicrockforever5 3 years ago
Classicrockforever5, my comment was directed to flupelo1, who wrote "Lenne Lenape (Deleware)tribe". Those are not mere typos.
I doubt anyone who is not American Indian will ever understand what my peoploe think about our culture being taken.
The comment posted by Tawodi7 is worth considering.
dotsuwa4 3 years ago
as a boy scout camp staff member who works daily with the OA, I must wonder where all this backlash came from. we had a bonnet made for us by a local tribe and we alwasy check with them beofre makeing any modificatiosn to the ceremony that they approved. Please, if you want to rag on the BSA pick a more rational reason, like their outward homophobia and religiously discriminate policies.
Ruffhouse789 4 years ago
Those issues have gotten plenty of press. Simply because an Indian tried to sell our culture doesn't mean that the tribe condones it. Among traditionals the use of these things is a slap in the face to the people who have earned the right to wear them.
anishinaabe 4 years ago
well, if someone is selling your culture, and the bsa, who is genuinly trying to be sensitive is geting thir approval from those sout individuals, then the problem is with them, not the BSA.
Ruffhouse789 4 years ago
Okay Ruffhouse, to specifically address to Homophobia, well... who you are,or do, is your business. Keep it to yourself. You are aware the the Scouts as well as the Catholic Church had to deal with some pretty bad incidences with child molestion. So the gay folks who were "way out of the closet" took the hit. Society in general does not distinguish between those who are gay, and those who are pederasts. I have plenty of gay friends. Some are involved in scouting. It is no big deal.
4L60E 3 years ago
AND u are no native american!
native Americans are indians. You are born as a son of pioneers who came over with pretty less respect for native americans and much respect for exploiting mother earth.
Theres some intelligence in your stupidness
dreadream2007 4 years ago
I'm Ojibwa dread, you freaking moron. Stupidness is not a word and your pointless, vulgar babble has no place here.
anishinaabe 4 years ago
it has! and thats called freedom of speech you tiny lil smarthead
dreadream2007 4 years ago
i been to a scouts Powwow n they are ridiculous! i don't know if i should die laughing or cry or smack them up ... wow ... good job on the video anishinaabe!!!
miigwech!
nycsexyredbone 4 years ago
Mino odopin niij!!
anishinaabe 4 years ago
The Boy Scouts motivation is not to mock your culture but to revere and respect it. I think your problem is you can't relate to what's in others' hearts, your resentments block you from feeling empathy for others. What you label racism is not.
eezyone 4 years ago
Teepees halo?? I have nothing more to say to you.
anishinaabe 4 years ago
Once again halo you are lying to try to prove a bogus point. I have never accused whites of being racist. I do however find the boy scouts mocking of our culture to be racist.
anishinaabe 4 years ago
What would be your definition of racist in this context. Whatever the scouts use of ceremony and garment would be innocent and nieve, nothing disrespectful intended, in fact those type of ceremonies are usually rites of passage and advancement. It's basically a boys club that teaches high ideals, servival skills, good citizenship don't make it something evil.
eezyone 4 years ago
I'm sorry you were unable to have the experience of being a boy scout, as smart as you are, you probably would have been a good one. I wish you would use your talents for positive pursuits.
eezyone 4 years ago
They are not naive. Most natives are appalled by how they dishonor our warriors with the sacrilegious use of these objects. Red Clouds son tried to wear his fathers bonnet into battle and was attacked by his own people because he had no right to wear it. Our ancestors would roll over in their graves if they saw what the scouts were doing.
anishinaabe 4 years ago
You ought to feel honored that the boy scouts try to copy and preserve some of the native american traditions, conservation, reverance for the land and nature, honor and nobility. You really misunderstand the heart and intention of the BSA in using these articles and ceremonies they are really quite innocent. Nothing at all disrespectful intended.
eezyone 4 years ago
That's the thing eezyone, they are not preserving it. What they are doing is rearranging it. Their take on our ceremonial regalia is purely aesthetic to them, but to us it is sacred. I used to teach groups of boy scouts about the culture. When I heard of some of the things that they teach to these children, I ceased to do so.
anishinaabe 4 years ago
I'll concede the point that they may be wrong in using the cermonial regalia without the proper understanding. I still think they are naive. What do they teach that upset you so much?
eezyone 4 years ago
The "secret ceremonies" that they have teaches gives the impression that that is the way that we conduct our spiritual business. We don't do that at all. The bigotry that they teach also is not of Native origin.
anishinaabe 4 years ago
The BSA teaches brotherly love and comradary you may not like them borrowing indian symbol for their ceremonies but there is nothing racist about them. As far as the bigotry I think it's childish to call everyone that believes that two man should not have sexual relations bigots, it goes against God's original plan for mankind.
eezyone 4 years ago
It's racist because of their lack of respect for a culture that was nearly wiped out by a genocide committed by their ancestors. I don't think that it's bigotry to have religious beliefs. I do however find it to be bigoted that these people discriminate against people because of this belief an that they try to shove it down our throats. There isn't one shred of proof that their bible is factual. There for it can not be used as a legitimate argument.
anishinaabe 4 years ago
I don't believe they think they're being disrespectful they probably think the opposite. Sexual orientation is changeable there is abundant documentation that people change all the time it's more influenced by environmental factors. Religions have to do with people's experience of the divine and they are evolving as people learn and mature the creator is limited as to how much he can reveal himself to us by our lack of maturity and false preconcieved ideas.
eezyone 4 years ago
It is not changeable there are several people who say that they have changed there's a difference between bisexual and gay and science has shown that to try to change it is harmful. There is no reason for anyone to change it. I couldn't be happier with who I am and I wouldn't change it for the world.
anishinaabe 4 years ago
Many have changed and the APA activists have misrepresented the science and research. I'm glad you're happy but haveing sex with someone of the same gender is not what the creator intended for us but is a result of the fall of man and the result of several factors messing with your socialization process growing up. There are research results that people have changed from several countries and through out history. Its not harmful, when done correctly.
eezyone 4 years ago
Who's misrepresenting the science? There is no proof at all that any type of "creator" even exists. To meddle with peoples lives, based on a fairy tale is absolutely harmful.
anishinaabe 4 years ago
Any reasonable man can see the proof that God exists, the order and beauty of the universe, all the beautiful life forms, spontainious generation can't explain even how male and female could develope or why. Life developes with purpose and direction all the multitude of life forms didn't happen by chance even your ancestors would agree with that.
eezyone 4 years ago
Simply because something is beautiful doesn't mean that it was created by a magical invisible man in the sky. War isn't beautiful.
pain isn't beautiful. Famine, hurricanes, drought, genocide, birth defects, disease, none of this is beautiful.
anishinaabe 4 years ago
There is no magical man in the sky there is a mind and heart and guiding force in all existance. Humans where given the gift of being Lords of creation. In other words we where given responsibility to perfect ourselves and govern the physical world with wisdom and love, but a error took place at the begining of human history and selfcentered love ruled instead of living for the sake of others like the creator envisioned.
eezyone 4 years ago
You have no proof of any of the statements that you just made. How can you believe something so strongly that is nothing more than a story, and has nothing to back it up?
anishinaabe 4 years ago
There is plenty to back it up all cultures throughout history have some belief in spiritual existence and many people of different cultures and countries have spiritual experiences the spirit world is real and more vast than this one. Where do you think feelings, thoughts and dreams come from and man's reason and creativity.
eezyone 4 years ago
You ask about the proof I have to back up my statements. I have experienced the spirit world and the presence of God. All of our ancestors that have gone before us live in the spiritual world on some level, some closer to God than others, it all depends on what kind of life we live here. This world is meant to be our school of love, our families are very important.
eezyone 4 years ago
That which blocks you from a relationship with your creator is absolutely harmful. God transends all religions and all people are his children and all creation is his handywork made from his energy. The marxist homosexual movement meddles with peoples lives based on immorality and half truths all the time. And that is absolutely harmful, killing people spiritually, spreading their lies.
eezyone 4 years ago
It religious zealots that are meddlesome. Gays just want to live their lives with the same rights as everyone else. Religion kills people both spiritually and physically. You can't say that god transcends religion when supposedly god created it in honor of himself, furthermore, many religions charge their believers with the mission of murdering others with a different religious belief.
anishinaabe 4 years ago
I can't disagree with you on many points but much of the religions were created by man. God has been able to work through the religions to raise man up to a higher level of intellect and morality but many mistakes where made by hard hearted and faithless men. False pride, arrogance, resentment, immorality, selfishness,etc. kills people spiritually and physically
eezyone 4 years ago
Arrogance? You just put all religions on Earth under that of your own by claiming that not only was someone of God (I take it you're talking the Christian god with the capitol G) morally better than other cultures, but actually was more intelligent than anyone of any other religion in the world by being part of it(we're talking billions of people). That is arrogance if I've ever seen it.
voidhawkSL 4 years ago
voidhawkSL; There is one God for all people, all existence, all life, that original being is perceived differently by different people at different times in different cultures according their level of understanding and spiritual growth, What are you trying to tell me? all human kind are kin. One family under God Aju.
eezyone 4 years ago
Many religions. One God. Many names, known and unknown. Still, One God.
4L60E 3 years ago
What about the polytheistic religions 4L60?
anishinaabe 3 years ago
Polytheism is invalid. To oversimplify, God created the heavens and the earth, and everything in them. That means you and me. He sent his son to bring us salvation from our poor choices. To think that each force of nature is the domain of a separate deity is not logical. That would mean that the universe was designed by committee, something that probably wouldn't work too well. Not every point of view is valid. While a person can have their own opinion, they can't have their own facts.
4L60E 3 years ago
Your religion is no more valid or logical than that of the ancient Greeks, Egyptians, Incas, or the Zoroastrians. To think that there is an all powerful omniscient deity who needed to have his son tortured to forgive sins is illogical. If he were real then why not just forgive them without nailing his son to a tree till he slowly died of exposure. If you think that your god is real, then you must also concede that he is a sadist. Your superstitions are just as invalid as anyone else's.
anishinaabe 3 years ago
Me again. You must be thrilled. I agree with you 99.9% on this issue. More blood has been spilled over religion than anything else in history. Religion was indeed created by man. I can't see too many of them that are worth the time, yet I seek a closer relationship with God. Puzzle on that a while.
4L60E 3 years ago
We allow whites to our powwows. Our most sacred ceremonies however are ours and unlike other religions we don't push our beliefs on others. We keep out ways to ourselves.
anishinaabe 4 years ago
A scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courtious, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent this is what scouts strive for. BSA teaches religious and racial tolerance, respect for elders, patriotism, good character developement, etc. The person that made this video knows nothing about scouting and probably stands for no higher ideal then selfish individualism.
eezyone 4 years ago
This is so true I worked as a leader in the Boy scout movement for years as a cub den leader & went to all the Boy Scout meetings which included the cub scouts. Thnks for your post
halo123dot123 4 years ago
I already warned that off topic, anti gay, non-factual rhetoric will be deleted.
anishinaabe 4 years ago
Do you only try to find fault with everyone? You don't seem to be able to see the good in others when you have the right leadership the BSA teaches good character and does a lot of good. What good do you do?
eezyone 4 years ago
The truth is somehting that people like you have little respect for eezy.
anishinaabe 4 years ago
First off I don't spread my charitable deeds all over the Internet like some. I prefer to keep my charity to myself thank you. Only a person who has something to hide would go around bragging about all the good that they have done.
anishinaabe 4 years ago
Any way, (about your "Mormons don't discrimination" statement. I said that you use your religion to discriminate against others. I said nothing about "christian churches". You discriminated against blacks in the past and you discriminate against blacks now.
anishinaabe 4 years ago
This is not true just Sun their were blacks in
our meetings 1 gave the lesson in sunday school
another black offered the closing prayer their aare others that are teaching the children others are teaching the youth. I once attended a Mormon church in Memphis Tennessee where most of the congregation were blacks. They are now taking an active part in all Mormon meetings.
halo123dot123 4 years ago
"Mormons don't discriminate against any christian church"... That is a bogus statement halo. All churches discriminate against all other churches except the non-denominational ones. If you are a Jew, you can not receive communion at a catholic church. If you are a christian, you can not have a bris for your child. If you are a protestant you can not even attend a Mormon service. This by definition is discrimination.
anishinaabe 4 years ago
This is so untrue they are allowed to take the sacrament(communion) in the mormon church along with the rest of us. I have neighbors who are black & they are mormons. Get a life & don't be so biased
halo123dot123 4 years ago
I never said that he was excommunicated because he was an Indian. It's obvious that it was because he was a child molester. I am appalled however that you would make such a racist statement. The subject is the boy scouts use of war bonnets without knowing their significance. To mention an NDN child molester implies that he is a child molester because he is an NDN.
anishinaabe 4 years ago
I know you didn't say that George P Lee was excommunicated because he was an Indian. I picked it up from someone else. I didn't intend
to make it a raciest statment. Why don't you like mormons they have done nothing to you & the
BSA aren't trying to be raciest either. You seem to have issues with all churches & anyone that is trying to good. Why
halo123dot123 4 years ago
anish has a resentful spirit and feels disenfrancized for a college boy he doesn't have much commonsense or life experience
eezyone 4 years ago
I agree
halo123dot123 4 years ago
This is not true I have never in my 74 yrs of being a mormon heard such a thing. If such a thing happens the7y are excommunicated immeadeatly. You better have proof for such outlandish statements
halo123dot123 4 years ago
How can you nsay such things mormons are not gay so why would they abuse their gay kids.
halo123dot123 4 years ago
There are plenty of gay Mormons halo. You can read stories about them everywhere. You may think that your magic underwear protects you from the evil of two boys kissing but that's not the case. The emotional abuse that you people but your gay children through is disgusting and if there is a hell I hope people like that rot in it.
anishinaabe 4 years ago
What do you know about magic underwear? You criticise the boy scouts of america for demonstrating he indian headress because it is sacred & then you criticise mormon underwear what is wrong with you
halo123dot123 4 years ago
anish ; I don't know why I shared that with you. I never confronted the man and am friends of the fammily. We've all had bad things happen to us and our family members. It's time to forgive and move on and learn how to be a true human being transending race, religion and nationality. The Creator and our ancestors are counting on us and watching.
eezyone 4 years ago
Of course you don't want anyone discriminating against your religion yet you use your religion to discriminate against others. I'm sorry but that's not OK with me.
anishinaabe 4 years ago
You are entitled to your opinion. Mormons never discriminate against others Do realize that the Mormons are the first to give relief to those that are victims of floods hurricanes or other castrophys. Did you know that the Mormons have a church in Africa. I know for sure because their are members in my ward who have lived in Africa(Blacks)They have parents who visit us from time to time. On the doors of our chapels is a message all visitors welcome(this includes blacks
halo123dot123 4 years ago
anish you are reading something into this that isn't true. I agree with eezyone. you are so mixed up. I don't like discrimation either but i feel that you are discriminating against Mormons & you just don't know the real truth about them
halo123dot123 4 years ago
anishinaabe I have several native american friends and none of them believes the way you do. It's time to learn how to work together with the groups on the side of the light. Whatever you've been through I hope you can learn to forgive others and try to see from their point of view.
eezyone 4 years ago
lol I bet that I have more NDN friends than you buddy. I'll never see from an irrational hateful point of view. It's time that people just stop using religion to mask their bad behavior, To justify their wrongdoings, and to cope with their guilt.
anishinaabe 4 years ago
Who is talking about NDN friends arae you saying that all lds are gay? I don't know of anyone
halo123dot123 4 years ago
Anishunable I still don't see the answer to my question are you gay/Indian I can't see why you think this video is genocide? please explain
halo123dot123 4 years ago
I can't see how this teaches rascism I think all the bsa are trying to do is to teach the indian culture What is wrong with learning indian dances
halo123dot123 4 years ago
I know my culture and I know the culture that the BSA tries to pass off as ours and believe me they are not the same. The BSA discriminates against gays which is something that the native tribes that they mock have never done. We believe gays to be closer to god because gays (Nish-Manitoug) Have insight from the perspectives of both genders. Nish-Manitoug are of the few people who have the right to give a name, and hold high positions in our most sacred ceremonies.
anishinaabe 4 years ago
I neever knew that but in the Bible in Genesis it says that God created Male & Female & they were told to multiply & replenish the earth. Now how can Gays do that & beleive in God
halo123dot123 4 years ago
Once again Halo, Do not comment unless you have some proof that the event that you base your comments on actually happened. A story book isn't proof.
anishinaabe 4 years ago
The Bible should be proof enough
halo123dot123 4 years ago
Well, the bible is not enough. There are more religions in the world than just Christianity or Mormonism. It's arrogant to believe that everyone should be forced to follow yours especially when it promotes the atrocities that it does.
anishinaabe 4 years ago
What atrocities does it promote my friend
eezyone 4 years ago
OK. Let's list a few atrocities of the bible:
1) The Spanish inquisition
2) The crusades
3) The holocaust (The church refused to condemn it.)
4) The witch hunts
5) The never ending Wars in the Middle East
anishinaabe 4 years ago
6) Slavery
7) Galileo was persecuted because his ideas weren't in line with biblical teachings.
8) The bible says that disobedient children should be murdered.
9) The bible says that anyone who works on the sabbath should be murdered.
10) The bible says that to kill your wife, all you need to do is accuse her of adultery.
anishinaabe 4 years ago
There's nothing on your list that Jesus promotes. The church being made up of people on all levels of understanding and maturity has made all all kinds of mistakes due to ignorance and sin and selfishness. Like Jesus said no one is righteous no not one. But it has been a great force for good in this world too.
eezyone 4 years ago
Then shouldn't we just get rid of the church eezyone.
anishinaabe 4 years ago
abnishinaabe I am trying to understand where you are coming from what atrocities are preached in any Christian church. Maybe your an atheist(do not believe in God) If so Christians & Mormons are entitled to their own beliefs
halo123dot123 4 years ago
I know of no one that is trying to force anyone to join the Mormon church.
halo123dot123 4 years ago
Halo123dot123, I believe that your comment about "learning Indian dances" is due to lack of knowledge not maliciousness. There is a great deal wrong with non-American Indians learning and doing "Indian dances." Certain dances are part of scared ceremony for a specific purpose. Such dances are not to be done absent appropriate prayer or for any purpose other than the ceremony being done. Ceremonial dances are not to be seen by the public. (continued in additional comment)
uweyvi7 3 years ago
In general, all American Indians must be given the right to dance. Such right is given only after a determination that an individual is worthy of that right and/or ceremony is conducted. American Indians must have knowledge of the ways of his or her tribe and clan (family group within the tribe). Tribal and clan ways have a definite impact on dance and regalia style.
In short, dancing without properly being given the right to dance is theft and completely disrespectful to American Indians.
uweyvi7 3 years ago