Thoughts on Anderson Cooper's transgender episode

[chumpalounka]

I think if we were living in a more androgen society and in a less genders center one, there would be less genders issues.

[synapticattack]

I love this, it definitely helped me put into words something I had a difficult time articulating, that is gender as a social construct vs how an individual identifies with their body. The latter also takes into account (and differentiates from) how one interacts with their body and perhaps with their sexual organs, and how they interact with their body (and sexual organs) within a gendered society. With me personally there are a lot of conflicting factors that this video helps dig into.

[mbosman27]

in response to the 'throwing like a girl' comment and bone structures etc. i am pretty sure that if you handed an untrained bio male or female a ball and had them throw with their left hand (supposing that they were right handed) the 'throwing styles' would be fairly similar.

[teaganlovesfood]

i think anderson cooper's show on transgender kids is the best one done on any day time show.

[xxthread]

(cont.) I do feel more happy now; things feel more "right". Sometimes the needs for our body and our social selves are different from how we experience ourselves, and I think that's okay. Like, I still enjoy forming relationships with lesbians, for example, but I can still have that *and* my new deeper voice and new broader shoulders. And I can still align myself with women and "womens issues" without *being* a woman- which is important to me, to keep this connection. *shrug* Just some thoughts.

[xxthread]

(continuation) I also think it's important to remember that we can't weed apart our social selves from our personal selves. We are social creatures, and we do live in a social world- transitioning because of social pressures is I think as legitimate as transitioning because you "feel male." I also think it's important to understand that gender and the body CAN be separate and CAN be separate even transitioning. For me, my body still doesn't "match" my gender (I don't feel that it can) BUT (cont)

[xxthread]

One thing I've considered about the age thing (1:36 or so) is that the longer we've spent in this body, sometimes the more invested we are in it, if that makes sense. I'm 23 and although I was a gender variant child, I navigated away from that for a long while and then I felt pretty invested in maintaining a female identity as an adult. I did eventually decide to socially and eventually medically transition, though. (continued)

[kabardinka1]

As a trans woman, I profoundly disagree that social acceptance of a broader range of gender expression would diminish the number of people who need to transition. They're two essentially different things which occasionally overlap but are fundamentally coming from different places. Would it make transitioning a little less painful... yes. Would it help non-trans people who aren't traditional in their gender expression... yes. Would it impact trans people's need to transition... not at all. Nada.

[vivhopla]

I couldn't agree more.

As much as there's a male privilege (for adults), I'd definitely say that for kids, there's kind of a girl privilege, towards clothing/activities choices, while boys are already pressured about it at a very young age.

Also, I don't know if it's just a casting choice, but I can't help but notice that in shows like this one involving really young kids, the proportion of "boys wanting to be girls" is far greater than the other way. My guess on that is that the girls that age

[vivhopla]

@vivhopla "who'd like to be boys", are in fact just fine living as tomboys. And while not being pressured about it, they don't even think about gender norms, therefore don't identify with one or another, therefore aren't labeled as trans. Should some of these girls be genuinely trans, I guess they'd realize it at puberty. The other ones may or may not outgrow the tomboy phase despite the body changes (still may raise some discomfort rather than dysphoria) and become awesome butches! (my story ;)

[vivhopla]

@vivhopla I wonder the same thing about our patriarchal society (there, I said it too!) If something like "tomgirls" was accepted, would we see as many little boys labeled as transgendered? These tomgirls may (or may not) outgrow it just like a big part of tomboys do. Whatever the case, this means there may be nothing wrong with their body but rather with society (being non accepting of diversity regarding gender expression, hypersexualizing everything, being misoginist, and so on..)

[PerpetualTomboy]

Also, I agree that our culture has a terrible double-standard when it comes to clothing. It's fine for women to wear men's clothing, but men who wear women's clothing are generally not accepted. There are exceptions, though. I'm pretty sure that Pete Wentz and Justin Bieber both wear women's jeans, though, to get a really tight fit. It's a start!

[PerpetualTomboy]

Thought-provoking vid. A note about the "throwing like a girl" comment. I seem to remember learning in Anatomy & Physiology class that the female humerus is generally longer that the male humerus, and the male lower arm bones (radius and ulna) are generally longer than those bones in the female. Could it be there is a bit of physiological difference that might contribute to the different throwing styles? (Though I'm sure lack of training/practice in girls has something to do with it as well.)

[TheSLOfox]

@PerpetualTomboy I don't know much about those details of anatomy, but I suppose it is possible. But I doubt that would make a difference in throwing - I mean, there are many women who can throw a baseball just as wickedly as any man, and with great form that's not different from a man's. And boys who haven't learned to properly throw a ball look kind of lame too. I think the phrase "throw like a girl" just equates bad, dorky throwing with girls, while in real life (cont.)

[TheSLOfox]

@PerpetualTomboy (cont.) any inexperienced thrower would look a little dumb and any practiced thrower would look good, regardless of sex or gender.

[TheSLOfox]

@PerpetualTomboy (cont.) any inexperienced thrower would look a little dumb and any practiced thrower would look good, regardless of sex or gender.

[TheSLOfox]

@PerpetualTomboy Also, I forgot to mention that--the way I see it--it's not really an issue of whether there's a difference, but rather the issue is that in that phrase, "girl" is associated with "negative"--the word is a stand-in for "dumbass" or something like that, which is very problematic even if there are actually physiological differences.

[TheMamadeira]

Omg you have such sexy hands! :)

[bluetitmi6]

I feel like I want to transition because for me men's clothes are just a security blanket, I feel better and more confident when wearing them but I'm perfectly aware that without them there is nothing masculine about my body. I've always wanted to have a beard and a flat chest and broad shoulders but at the same time I'm scared that I want to transition because of society's label of what a man and female should be rather than me being trans.

[AsianFTM]

From my experience as a child I would have to say instinct? Not sure if that is the right word to use. FTM by the way, just started to come out as one because I just found out about it not too long ago. Untill a few months ago I considered myself as a lesbian but it never felt right. Back to the instinct, I remember asking my mom few times if she was sure I wasn't a boy when I was born, or if they might have done some surgery on me as an infant lol. I asked those when I was in elementary school.

[anotherloaner]

you think to much. would you just go with your instincts! ask your self- how do you want to die? as more of boy or as the same handsome girl?

[TheSLOfox]

@anotherloaner Yeah, I do think a lot and can drive myself a little crazy sometimes. But I also really do enjoy thinking, and I just find it fascinating to ponder all these issues, kind of in the same way that reading a book is fun and satisfying, even though reading a book may not really "get you anywhere," so to speak. Also, in this video, I'm not really focusing on what I want my own gender identity to be.

[TheMamadeira]

@anotherloaner Intelligent people do think a lot, yes? Just appreciate that she is willing to share her interesting thoughts with us!

[iagoarchangel]

it might be a relief for some men who just want to wear makeup and dresses not to feel obliged to go thru a transition that is more than they need. i have no doubt some guys and gals need to go all the way, but i'm glad you raise the question of how far is enough for some folks.

[TheSLOfox]

@iagoarchangel Thanks - you phrase this well. I agree with you - some people really need to transition, but perhaps others might feel fine if only our culture was more accepting of non-steretypical gender expression and boys could wear dresses, etc.!

[Whitedoggy24]

I like that you talked about this topic. As I've said before, you and I bear striking similarities in our appearance, thoughts, inquisitive nature, and so on. I'm in my late twenties and almost feel like I'm looking in a mirror when I watch what you have to say. I often think that because it took me so long to come to the trans answer, that somehow invalidates me as trans at all. It's hard to feel like I could really be trans after such a grey and hazy past in terms of gender. Thanks for the vid

[Whitedoggy24]

I've thought about that so many times. Why are some people so aware of their true gender at a young age, and other people like me, don't know "the answer" until they are older? I've often thought it was a wiring issue. perhaps some people are just wired as more of one gender and others, like me, are wired in the brain with aspects of both genders. Don't get me wrong. I've never found being female easy, comfortable, or okay but it makes me wonder why it wasn't crystal clear at age 3 or so.

[TheSLOfox]

@Whitedoggy24 Interesting. I wonder if there are different "reasons" why different people feel trans. Like maybe little kids who ID as trans are thrown by social aspects of gender, whereas maybe older people who eventually ID as trans are more influenced by what happens during puberty? I feel like I was totally OK with my body as a kid b/c it was so neutral. But after puberty it was not neutral, which caused my strife!

[Graziella2006]

I didn t see the show, and I think a lot depends how kids are raised.And how parents rely on their kids wishes. Transfriedly parents will educate their kids differntly than parents for whom

TG doesn t exist.

[blickblocks]

Obviously the mainstream view of transgender people is very body essentialist and stuff. People don't understand that sex and gender are different. I haven't seen the AC special but I'm sure it's full of mainstream views which avoid rocking the status quo of sex and gender.

[TheSLOfox]

@blickblocks Yeah, it was kind of like that - essentialist.

[blickblocks]

@TheSLOfox The walls of gender are really walls of oppression against femininity, women, and female bodied people. I hate sounding like a rad fem here but honestly I am concerned for a lot of young children who might be pushed into medical transition beyond delaying puberty, or for kids who feel like they have to exhibit stereotypical gender expressions in order to access medical transition. On a personal note, I would have loved if there were an option for choosing my puberty course.

[sillyyetsuccinct]

Thanks for sharing your views! I was a child who was transgender and knew that I was a boy as a child. It was a combination of not relating to other girls socially PLUS relating to boys. Feeling like a boy. Wanting to be around the other boys. Wanting to be treated like a boy. I sorted all that out with feminism and for years was a "girl" who was more or less ok being a different kind of "girl." But the puberty caused the physical dysphoria and no amount of feminism could fix that.

[sillyyetsuccinct]

@sillyyetsuccinct I literally didn't understand why people said I was a gir. It wasn't just about the clothes. It was about everything. It was about every single social interaction all day long. It was about my body feeling funny. It was about the euphoria I felt when I was "mistaken" for a boy. It was about wanting to be myself and that self is defined by society as boy. Now I mourn for the years I lost to that misery.

[TheSLOfox]

@sillyyetsuccinct very interesting. Thanks for telling about your experience.  It's so interesting that many trans people have very different stories and "come out" at such widely varying times in their life. I definitely respect your feelings, and I'm glad you're getting to live the way you need to! :)

[TheSLOfox]

@sillyyetsuccinct I def understand that changing one's thinking, like trying to be feminist, couldn't help one feel better if one is trans on a fundamental level, so I respect people's need to transition. But maybe for others with some level of dysphoria, changing one's thinking could help, e.g. maybe for a boy who loved dresses and was OK with his body but felt like he "had" to transition in order to be able to wear girls' clothes.Not sure how often that happens, but it seems like it might(?).

[ThePandapaint]

This is interesting. I've been thinking A LOT about this lately, you know, how would it be if it was totally accepted for both/all genders to wear whatever clothes and act whatever masculine or feminine despite what you have "down there". Few things offend more than androgynity it seems. Also, and this is really intreresting, Ive always been a "tomboy" and have almost only got good respone on looks, interests etc. What would the case have been if I was a girly boy instead?

[danahighfill]

As far as the Anderson Cooper show, I did see it. I think kids are expressing themselves and it shows where we're out of balance as a culture. I fully support trans people and the shifts/discomfort created in our culture as a result. I hope we can all learn to accept the multifaceted aspects of ourselves.

[danahighfill]

You ask some great questions and bring up interesting points. Thanks for posing! <3

[danahighfill]

To your point about transitioning to reduce the difficulty of being a butch woman or a woman period. I totally understand and empathize with that view point, BUT I don't think it would go away. Whether we are male or female or somewhere in between we still have to deal with the issues in our culture. Men have issues because of our patriarchal society just as women do. I do agree it would be easier to be a man in "a man's world," but I think internally we all have to deal regardless.

[taylorsacracker]

Part of me doesn't believe that they knew when they were girls when they were just learning to talk. At that time in your life you don't even know what "makes the man," or "makes the woman" or whatever. They don't know the cultural stereotypes and social expectations and whatever...