In the unlikely event that I should ever forget my sins while here on Earth, I am sure there will always be someone to remind me. (they do,often,believe me) I have heard, and do believe, that in the age to come, be it Purgatory or Heaven, we will forget our sins. So, if I am so lucky as to make it to Purgatory along with others, we won't be sitting around recounting sins, and we can all get along finally.
i'M HAPPY TO HEAR THE nEW 0RDER sECT STILL TEACHES PERGATORY .
When I was a kid and they took over . The "New" "Nuns" said there was no more pergatory . This was to beginning of the end for New 0rderism . My dad called and was yelling at the "New limp wristed 'priest" who did not seem to care . They turned the wooden mean table around that next week . THAT WAS the end of modernism for Us . THANK YOU GOD
@stevesilvia y dont u do yourself a favor and do a little research on these matters, your churchs macabre history speaks for itself, u cant deny the facts! And why does your church believe that its man made TRADITIONS are a final authority. Please study and analyze some more before u try and defend the unknown. Purgotory, idolatry, popes infalible, sacraments, indulgenses, etc etc this is all man made and not biblical.
Y areRev17:9 have u ever studied your churchs macabre history? Their involvement in both world wars, the inquisition where it was a crime to read the bible, the conquest of latin america, the crusades among others. Not to mention the evil oath your beloved jesuit priest have to make. Your institutions goal is and always will be political world power cloaked Behind religion killing anyone who gets in its way.
@stevesilvia may the God of Jacob enlighten your dim understanding and let u see that you have been deceived by man made doctrines. Traditions that your church makes up and have been passed down thru the ages.. just because you have been brought up with these beliefs doesnt make them right. I dont agree with you! Does that make me a heretic worthy of death? Your church has so much blood on its hands. She is drunk with the blood of the martyrs. Why cant u see that she is the whore of Rev18.
@Hosannafication I don't recall saying you are a heretic worthy of death...as you say. and where was your church during the dark ages? If you can prove that the book of Rev 18 is speaking about the Catholic Faith, please show me where it says that in the bible about Catholics....other wise, you are just placing your own "words and prejudice" into the Scriptures.
"Your church has so much blood on its hands. She is drunk with the blood of the martyrs. Why cant u see that she is the whore of Rev18"
Wolves enter into Christ's church and your response is that the gates of hell have prevailed against his church? Either you have faith that Jesus did not lie when he said his church would be guided by the HS or you don't.
I personally cannot see that Christ's church is the whore you claim she is because that is a lie provided by Satan.
Anyone who uses 1 Cor ch 3 to try point to purgatory has a very very, very, weak understanding of scripture. It is overstated that the Christians works are on trial here, the fire represents judgement, and if we read Revelations 19:12 , the fire is also used here when speaking metaphorically of Christ's eyes. He will see each Christians Work for what it is, wood, straw, etc. Gold etc.... Your video is null and should be void.
lesser sins not forgiven? Can you name a sin the Blood of Christ has not atoned for already? Galatians 2:21. Heb 10:18, His one sacrafice was enough to atone for all sin, hence the Lamb of God who takes Away the Sin of the world (not some sins) But All.1 Cor Ch 3 is talking about the Christians work's of what sort They are (hence works mentioned 7 times)The Christian is already saved dispite his works being burned up.Matt 5:21 Nothing to do with purgatory, but Christian living, no metaphors here
Purgatory is a demonic sham. /watch?v=L_XQQyuCHlE or ask yourself the question, what sins did the Lamb of God who takes Away the sins of the world not die for? 1 John 2;2
@stevesilvia I am not a "protestant" I am a Christian.. This verse has nothing to do with purgatory Rev 21:27, However read 1 Cor 6:11. Prayers for the dead, not in the Bible. A pardon from all sin however is offered to all 1 John 2:2. Maccabee, fine and nobel thought based on his own personal belief, not scriptural or according to the law of Moses.1 Mac 9:27 it states that there were no prophets at that time so Gods inspired word had ceased. Making these apocrypha books void.
@stevesilvia I've heard the teaching of the unforgivable sin, but could you clarify that for me? I don't know what it means that we will be forgiven speaking against the Son, but not against the Holy Spirit. Is there an example or something to explain the difference? Thanks.
@fintalily The Holy Spirit persuades and enables men to accept Christ and enjoy the saving benefits of the gospel but if anyone refuses to submit to the Spirit's gracious constraint, preferring to call good evil and evil good, how can the gospel avail for him? The deliberate refusal of the grace of God is the one sin which by its very nature is irremediable
You Cathys simply made Purgatory up. Flat-out made it up. No idea as to why. It is not only a useless concept, it is offensive by implying that Christ was not sufficient. Tsk, tsk. You should be ashamed. You want some version of "time out"? Then you don't need to make ridiculous things up. Just go sit in the corner by yourself for a while until you learn how to behave. Then you can re-join the others.
@JeffersonDinedAlone We know that sin cannot be forgiven in Hell and there is not need for any sin to be forgiven once you are in Heaven. So, there must be some other state/age/place where sin CAN be forgiven after this age or this life. We call this Purgatory.
@JeffersonDinedAlone Matthew 12:32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. Here Jesus implies that some sins will be forgiven in the “age to come.”
@JeffersonDinedAlone We know that sin cannot be forgiven in Hell and there is not need for any sin to be forgiven once you are in Heaven. So, there must be some other state/age/place where sin CAN be forgiven after this age or this life. We call this Purgatory.
"You Cathys simply made Purgatory up. Flat-out made it up. No idea as to why. It is not only a useless concept, it is offensive by implying that Christ was not sufficient."
You really believe that billions of Catholics over the past 2000 years simply made Purgatory up for the heck of it? That doesn't even sound logical at all. Purgatory has nothing to do with Christ being sufficient. Shy do you think Purgatory implyies that Christ was not sufficient?
Thanks for your comments specially referring about false prophets. My brother I want to tell you one thing it is Bible and it's authority which is above any rule and traditions of the church. The Bible clearly talk about the interpretation of Bible cannot be given in the hands of One person. It is the blessing through the Holy Spirit. that is the reason why inspiration of the Bible is unique source of teaching and exhorting read 2Tim 3:15-17 & 2 Peter 1:20-21
@TheShehzad4244 the bible did not exist for many years after Jesus died and rose. If Jesus had meant for the Christians to believe solely on the bible and it's interpretation, then what did the early Christians do before it and without it? Answer is they relied on the church and the oral traditions of those Christians before them...
Dear Christian believer Listen what Jesus says in John 8:32 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." My brother search the Scriptures and be blessed .. The source of canonization of the Bible is given here below. web site answersingenesis org articles nab2/why-sixty-six
"Listen what Jesus says in John 8:32 32 and you will know the truth"
I have listened to him and that is why I am Catholic. Thank you for your concern.
I don't want to be rude but I do not need to preached to by someone who has lost their faith in Jesus. If you continue to try to convert me to your faith, you will only be met with treatment equal to what you give to me.
"The source of canonization of the Bible is given here...web site answersingenesis org"
Perhaps you believe Ken Ham is the only one who has been give authority to preach the gospel and maintain historical records of the church but I certainly do not.
Jesus gave us one church and he placed specific people in charge of it until he returns. Ken Ham is not one of them. It is easy to identify a false profit (Matthew 23:15).
[. Books accepted as canonical by some Jews, and for most part by the Greek and Roman Catholic churches, but rejected by the Protestants, are Baruch, Tobit, Judith, Book of Wisdom, Song of the Three Children, History of Susanna, Bel and the Dragon, Prayer of Manasseh, Ecclesiasticus, 1 Esdras, 2 Esdras, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, 3 Maccabees, 4 Maccabees, 5 Maccabees
At the Council of Rome in 382, the Church decided upon a canon of 46 Old Testament books and 27 in the New Testament. This decision was ratified by the councils at Hippo (393), Carthage (397, 419), II Nicea (787), Florence (1442), and Trent (1546).
There were only 7 books cannonized by the RCC not 16 that you posted. My source is Catholicdotcom. I would never post my own opinion without stating it is my opinion.
@stevesilvia and @tonganfoilole69, Read the parable about the rich man and lazarus in Luke 16: 19-31. The merciful, lovely, and kind jesus, told the rich man that now your are in TORMENT while lazarus is in comfort. There is only two options, to Go with God or to go against him. Same as to live peacefully forever or live in torment in flames for life. Those passages are a graphical description of hell.
I believe theirs a purgatory, cause when we die, we can't go straight to heaven cause we're all sinners and no 1 have a clean heart but jesus alone, so we can't go straight to heaven. If we don't go to hell, where do we go to cleanse our sins before enter heaven?...that's what telling us their is a purgatory, that's where we go and cleanse our sins before go to heaven. you can't go to heaven with unclean heart, remember that.
The Great Gulf and Abraham's Bosom (Luke 16:19-31) Abraham’s Bosom, paradise or to A church purgatory . ( the souls of the “righteous dead” up until Christ’s resurrection. It is now EMPTY because Christ took the “first fruits” with Him when he was raised (Luke 16:19-31; Acts 2:25-27; 2 Cor 12:2-4; Matt 27:52,53; 1 Cor 15:20; Eph 4:8-10). There is heaven and hell,thats it
"The blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin", and that blood is made available to us every week in Holy Mass while on earth; The blood is for our earthly existence, and for a time after death the Fire of Purgatory will cleanse us.
SInce even the elect die with certain attachments to sin, there must be a final purification for us before we enter into his Beatific Vision, and that place is Purgatory, where the Fire of God's Love burns away all that defiles us. Purgatory is the salvation proscess continued after death and is 100% the work of God.
Christ's Soul would descend to Abraham's Bosom to preach(1 Peter 3:19). But, He did not stay there(Acts 2:27). After the three days Christ took paradise and the saints to heaven with him. This is evident in Matthew 27:52. After Christ's resurrection paradise is referred to as being above as mentioned in 2 Corinthians 12:4.
I also think our works will be tested in Abraham's Bosom. Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:10-15). I think that we will NOT get out until the last penny has been paid (Luke 12:59) for each work that did not pass the test.
@MrChristianBeliever ... Works will be tested is work theology and is not based on the grace of God. You have read all the Biblical references out of the context. Parables cannot be taken as literal whereas Parables are speaking the figurative speech.
"You have read all the Biblical references out of the context."
Have I now? As a Catholic, I believe everything the Bible says! However, I don't a.gree with your personal interpretation of that passage.
the Bible is a Catholic book! The Catholic Church gave it to the world! Which means that there is nothing in the Bible that is contrary to anything in the Catholic Faith and there is nothing in the Catholic Faith contrary to anything in the Bible! Always remember that.
"Blood of Jesus can only purifies the person from the sin"
Does the blood of Jesus cause us to be born again in water and spirit which is required for spiritual life? (John 3:3–6, 6:63, Ezekiel 36:25–27, Gal. 3:27, Rom. 6:4, 1 Cor. 12:13, 2 Cor. 5:17, Acts 2:38). The first birth is birth of the flesh (infants), but we need something more in order to have life.
Through baptism we are "born again" and made new creatures in Christ; through baptism our sins are forgiven.
Doctrine of Purgatory cannot be proved in any way trough canonized Christian Scripture. The prayer of St. Gertrude the great has no base from Biblical doctrinal point of view. Blood of Jesus can only purifies the person from the sin. If the masses can alternate the precious blood of Jesus Christ. Then it is a man made religion associated with the blood of Jesus which is undermining the atonement of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Then Jesus blood loses it's primary cause to wash the sin of sinner.
The BIble is very clear on this subject, that when we die, we sleep. Over sixty times Bible writers, both OT and NT, compare death to sleep. In fact, so did Jesus. Read the story in John 11 where Jesus talks about how Lazurus is dead. He mentions Lazurus as "sleeping". Also notice in Pauls writing in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15:6,50. These are but a few of the many many references to death being "sleep. So according to the Catholic church teachings, we go to puratory to sleep. Hmmmm
"Over sixty times Bible writers, both OT and NT, compare death to sleep...He mentions Lazurus as "sleeping". "
Was he asleep when the rich man said to Abraham: ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’. It does not make sense to me that the rich man would ask for a sleeping man to do this task.
Is it possible that you define sleep differently than scripture?
Lazarus found in 2 separate contexts, Lazarus of Bethany is the subject of a miracle recounted in the Gospel of John in which Jesus restores Lazarus to life after 4 days dead. Another Lazarus appears as a Rich Man, in the Gospel of Luke. I was referring to first Lazrus who was physical dead or sleeping. The parable of the 2nd Larzus was being tormented in hell. Its clear to me that there is an immediate consciousness after death and there is no holding place or Purgatory. What do you think?
I think you are correct concerning Lazarus of Bethany but not of Lazarus being tormented in hell. Both Lazarus and the rich man died and went to hell, but Lazarus was comforted in Abraham’s bosom while the rich man was in a place of torment (Lk 16:19-31).
I think since they were both in hell but separated by a great chasm and only one was being tormented that there is a purgatory. A place where we will be made perfect before we enter heaven.
"The rich man and Lazarus were both in hell is new doctrine."
When I read the passage, I don't see the great chasm as being some where outside of hell but rather somewhere that those who are eternally tortured cannot traverse. Scripture tells us that Christ decended to hell to preach to the spirits there and we know that he did not preach to those who rejected Christ in life.
Where do you believe Abraham's Bosom (sheol or hades in Greek) is located?
I think Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him in Abraham's Bosmom (Purgatory). I also think this is the same place the thief on the cross went.
I think that this place is for purification of the just and not a place of condemnation. The place of condemnation is across the great chasm. Those in Purgatory were saved when they died.
I also think it would be pointless to pray for those across the great chasm because they will forever be tormented and will never see the face of God. I think it is beneficial to pray for those in Abraham's Bosom because (2 Macc. 12:43–46) tells me so.
I think that the purification that takes place here is God's mercy (the Blood of Christ) washing us clean so we may enter heaven without any stain of sin.
Paul said that to be absent from the body was to be present with the Lord (2nd Corinthians 5:6-9). He also explained that we had a spiritual body waiting on us in heaven. This body was made for heaven not this earth. Our spirit lives in a celestial body while it is in heaven in the presence of God. While on this earth we live in a terrestrial body or earthly body. When we die we go to be with God, not "Abraham’s Bosom." Judgement is fixed and final. Only by accepting Jesus can one be cleanse.
"When we die we go to be with God, not "Abraham’s Bosom.""
I never said we go to be with Abraham's Bosom. I also did not ask what you think. Your comments about scripture are not requested or desired.
"Judgement is fixed and final."
That is what I said, those in Purgator have already been judged and thus they are saved. Did you ask me what I think in order to correct me so that you can prove you are correct or did you actually want to know what I think?
Hmmm, never said that the word purgatory is in the bible. Christ's Soul would descend to Abraham's Bosom to preach(1 Peter 3:19). But, He did not stay there(Acts 2:27). After the three days Christ took paradise and the saints to heaven with him. This is evident in Matthew 27:52. After Christ's resurrection paradise is referred to as being above as mentioned in 2 Corinthians 12:4.
Even though a man may die a saved man, he still, up until the time of his death, will have a certain attachment to sin; Purgatory is the salvation proscess continued for the elect after they have died.
@Stevesilvia, all over the bible the word dead means to be spiritially dead. In revelations 21:27 you forgot to say the whole verse, which also said:''Nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those names that are written in the lambs book of life. This clearly states that the believers in christ will enter heaven but the ones who dont will go to hell. In 2 mach it talks about the dead in spirit, for everyone is responsible for their own salvation.
@MrUncleruckus1, I didn't forget it....But here is what we believe... Revelation 22:14 "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city".
It aslo means phsyical dead, fromm which Jesus did resurrected from. I agee the true believer will enter heaven, but it says nothing about purgatory. Christ's Soul would descend to Abraham's Bosom to preach(1 Peter 3:19). But, He did not stay there(Acts 2:27). After the three days Christ took paradise and the saints to heaven with him. Read Matthew 27:52. After Christ's resurrection paradise is referred to as being above as mentioned in 2 Corinthians 12:4.
@MrChristianBeliever how did u cum 2 d conclusion dat I hate catholicism? U obviously dont ask questions 2 ur preists coz if u do, they will accuse u of losing faith or u have hate in ur heart just like what u did 2 me right? N obviously, u dont know d answer 2 my questions. Who would gonna tell u d answer? Also, if other denom preach trinity, I will not accept them also. U suddenly shift the topic to "Do I have hate or not?" If sum1 prooved ur wrong does dat mean he hate u? ur juz simply wrong.
if anyone can read d verse/s that says purgatory or just d sense of purgatory in d bible, I will accept catholicism. It is not in d bible, whats in d bible is when a man died he is already in d hands of god. when judgement day comes, they will be judged according what they did when they were alive. They go to heaven or hell. When d bible said "they are in the hands of god." D catholics say, "you see thats purgatory." Is it not safe and more convincing to say "Hands of god" instead of purgatory?
"if anyone can read d verse/s that says purgatory or just d sense of purgatory in d bible, I will accept catholicism."
That is a lie. You will never accept Purgatory from scripture because it is clear you have a hatred for the CC. You accept the word Trinity which was first used the CC. I am most certain that you would not believe in the Trinity if you believed it was first used by the CC.
If another denomination described it, you would accept it simply because it is not CC
"When d bible said "they are in the hands of god." D catholics say, "you see thats purgatory.""
That is not what the CC tells us. It is only what you want others to believe the CC tells us because of your hatred for the CC. You are transparent and every Catholic here can see straight through your straw man argument. You are a joke given that you think you have any idea what the CC teaches.
Acts 4:12, John 3:16, Hebrews 9:27, John 14:6, Isiah 53:5. Salvation comes from no one else, for their is no name given under heaven to men by which we must be saved. Purgatory is man made. The background music you played in this video is oxymoron to your belief!! The bible is clear, there is no forgiveness for sins without the shedding of blood. Your religion can't save you, only Jesus the Son of the Living God, the God of Abraham, Jacob, David, Isiah, etc..
@MrChristianBeliever Dude don't contradict yourself. You dont need religion or denomination to be saved. Having a personal relationship with Jesus. Becoming catholic or Baptist cant saved you, only Jesus . You distort scripture for your own propaganda.
"You dont need religion or denomination to be saved. Having a personal relationship with Jesus. Becoming catholic or Baptist cant saved you, only Jesus ."
You must not be able to read. I did not say that religion can save you. I did not say becoming Catholic will save you.
I simply asked you what Paul meant in 1 Cor 9:22 "... so that I may by all means save some."
I appologize for thinking you could read. I will not make that same mistake.
"Excuse me Sir!! But please examine yourself before you judge others. Practice what you preach. You hypocrite, you Pharisee!!!"
How have I judged you? By saying you can't read? That appears to be a fact, not a judgement. If I am wrong, then I will admit it. You call me a hypocrite and Christ tells me I must ignore those who insult me. I will try to ignore you but I would also like you to justify your statement if you can.
@The727evolution I agree with The727evolution. Religion teaches us about Christ. Those outside of religion, are in danger of creating God into their own understanding. Catechism with the first Christians, was the term given for the oral teaching of God. Religion is the bible study of the Word of God.. The belief in and worship of a personal God .
Acts 4:12, John 3:16, Hebrews 9:27, John 14:6, Isiah 53:5. Salvation comes from no one else, for their is no name given under heaven to men by which we must be saved. Purgatory is man made. The background music you played in this video is oxymoron to your belief!!
Act 4:12, John 3:16, Hebrews 9:27, John 14:6, Isiah 53:5. Salvation comes from no one else, for their is no name given under heaven to men by which we must be saved. Purgatory is man made. The background music you played in this video is oxymoron to your belief!!
Your whole belief on this is twisted, sin is sin. There is no lesser or greater sin. When a man dies he is judged in whatever state he is in. If your theory is true then i can be a rapist or killer and get prayed into heaven by others?
@Twin069, remember the story of the people who brought a friend to see Jesus, but it was too crowed to get near Him? They ended up lowering him through the roof...But their friend didn't want to go in the first place... What did Jesus say to them?
Since no man dies immaculate, but still a sinner attached to sin, we need the fire of Gods love to purge all spiritual impurites away, because "nothing unclean may enter heaven". While on earth "the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin (in the Eucharist), but after death there is no communion as in Church, but what is described in Corinthians: "our bad works will be burned up, but we are saved through FIRE".
@miksulder, we are human. The idea of purgatory is through out the bible. We are made clean because of Jesus, but the bible explains in Mathew 12:32 that some must be forgiven after death..
So if an unbaptised baby dies it deserves to suffer in Purgatory unless God pardons it ? I don't fancy that kid's chances, God's human rights record is pretty sketchy. You ask "Can God save those who have not been saved yet?" Well of course he can, he's God, for God's sake!
Christians exist by their pathetic submission to God's will which distorts their reason and compassion. They are obsessed with sinning, punishment and live with permanent guilt. We should feel sorry for their children.
"Cross of the Holy Father Benedict, the holy cross be my light, not the devil my guide I suggest it get away Satans vain things, evil only offer me, drink your poison yourself, the Holy Cross be my light"
@claptonstratgreen1, you seem to be rambling on and on but making no sense...1.43 says nothing about money...Here is a clue for you, money does not pay for sins...You can quote me on that. Where did you get your bible study from, a drug store? Your prejudice is clouding your ability to communicate.
@stevesilvia the catholic church has a history of selling indulgences. and how is it that your popes change doctrines like underware? God and his law does not change
@claptonstratgreen1 Actually the Catholic Church has never changed its doctrines. She has held fast. That is why so many reject her for not approving modern views of contraception, homosexuality, etc. What she does change however are her disciplines. Do you know what the difference is?
@stevesilvia really? are you sure about that? one pope said babies who died before they knew christ went to hell. Another said that they went to heaven. One pope said that limbo existed, another one said that limbo didnt exist
@claptonstratgreen1 the following is what the Catholic Church believes and teaches...As regards children who have died without baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"(CCC 1261) Again, show proof, not gossip...
@claptonstratgreen1, this may be difficult for you, but stay on one subject. The idea of a "limbo" was to try to explain what we didn't know. The updated explanation is much more clear. The doctrine is the same, the explanation now is much clearer. The doctrine is: one must be saved to get to heaven. The question is, can God save those who have not been saved yet? As regards children who have died without baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God.
@claptonstratgreen1 - Catholic Church never sold indulgences. It was mostly a corrupted monk named Tutzel who did it. The church always condemned such actions.
@mysteriumaenigma they why are people told that they can pay sums of money to the catholic church, and that their loved ones can get out of purgatory and/or hell?
@claptonstratgreen1 - Can you show me where is that in the Catholic doctrine that says one can pay the church to get their loved ones soul out of purgatory?
Catholic doctrines are found in the catechism. Catechism is available online for everyone to read.
@claptonstratgreen1 - I saw that video long time ago and watched it again now.
Exactly where in the video is it saying that indulgences can be bought?
The video is saying that for obtaining indulgences (3:10) "we must have a sincere conversion", we need to have "a constant change of heart", increasing in holiness, continually drawing closer and closer to God" If that is not happening at the bottom level then you will gain NOTHING by saying 100 rosary prayers or by acts of charity.
You should all discuss, how credible is the Bible, the idea that Christ (God???) came and died for us (or had to), and the inconceivable idea of hell as a place of eternal suffering.
if the bible was to be regarded genuine (of God?), then tradition and purgatory would make sense....but it's such an impossible " IF" I feel....
John 3:7 You Must Be Born Again, originalwriting.ie Use this book to share the gospel to unbelievers. Contains prophecy related topics concerning Israel and Christ. This book also speaks about spirit mediums and the false teaching of purgatory. Also covered are the scientific facts discovered in the bible long before modern science. This book, God willing, will help you win souls
Al these verses are out of context. for example 1 Cor 15:22, In the disciples and apostle thinking "challenged by fire" or "trail by fire" is a testing of faith. Peter taught Paul this also. Read Paul's context in 1 Cor 3:13.
Example comparison, 1 Peter 1:7, That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ
im tired of the catholic church making up false doctrines nit picking a few scriptures taking them out of context in order to burden those who are in need of true salvation by telling them they must obey the teachings of the church or else they might not receive the fullest rest when they die or have to wait or be tortured for sins that weren't cleansed and all this mumbo jumbo! I'm saved and know it and if you want to wait before you get it fine but i will not.
@atumbleweeding You are right to say you don't know if your saved or will not know till you die. Neither will anyone who is not saved. But those who are saved would like to invite you to know by asking Jesus in your heart and to ask Him to forgive you of your sins. Jesus is at the door of your heart not the church building. And I'm not protestant I don't go to church. I don't believe in works bringing salvation, but Jesus offered eternal life to me and I accepted Him and will serve Him.
@crxpunkb16 Even the people like you who think they are "saved" really don't know. In my line of work I meet the biggest liars and hypocrites and many of them think they are "saved".
Where I come from I saw many children beat/tortured by communists for believeing in Christ, and to this day they still don't know if they are saved. Many are still my friends.
crxpunkb16... do not lie to me. I see your kind every day on my beat.
SIN IS SIN there is no such thing as a "lessor sin" they are ALLL offenses to God. all this is doin is puttin works onto the beliver for salvation. JESUS DIED FOR THE ALL THE SINS OF THE WORLD NOT JUST THE REALLY BAD ONES ALL OF THEM. HE has forgiven the WORLD OF SIN ! To die in a "lessor sin" doesnt mean u will go to hell or purgatory cus ALL sins have been 4given PAST PRESENT AND FUTURE. Only sin thts unforgiven is to NOT accept CHRIST ! ANd thats the GOSPEL ! DNT ADD OR TAKE AWAY W/JESUS DID
@jiller777 Amen jiller777 well put! If they would only weigh the scales they would see that purgatory is humanism in a nut shell. if they are right great they get into heaven quicker than others without works, good for them! but if they are wrong they could be guilty of taking away glory for Jesus paying their "purgatory sentence". So the question is do you serve God out of fear in order to escape hell or do you serve God because the Lamb is worthy of receiving His reward for His suffering?
Good to know Church History, but I wonder how vital it is.
Christians should always learn from Jesus.
First he saw that people had a false sense of religiosity. Observing laws without the spirit of the law. Second He became aware that there were too many laws and all needed to be summed up in a golden rule (love God and your neighbour..)
So I wonder about the usefulness of Church history, mre importantly if the laws can be reduced to love Christianity must accept other faiths.
for those who may wish to ponder the problem, one either adopts a "reason" oriented approach and so incorporates traditions into their theology, and so the Bible is compromised (has to go), or one adheres strictly to the book but reason will dictate that such a reality cannot be, and again the Bible has to go...
of the two evils the latter is worse as it is even an affront to intelligence and reason. It is in fact more dogmatic and fascistic and to be feared and opposed(?)
Your Pope Mr. Ratzinger is a Antichrist. The Roman Catholic Church is a false system invented by evil, greedy, diabolical men and demons, it is a front for the kingdom of Satan. It is the Whore of Babylon spoken of in Revelation 17. What ya think about that?
@Bernardoguaidonis, reason would dictate that a loving God cannot but love, educate and bring about universal development and goodness.
Sensible of the Catholic Church to have come up with purgatory and even other traditions such as the esteem towards Mary (Christ's mother), and the saints. On the one hand it's raised the status of women and on the other it has empowered individuals according to positive spiritual traits,but in the process has not scripture been sacrificed for reason?' wonder??
I agree that their is a place/state of purification after death, but I think you err in believing that it is penal. Purgatory is a showing forth of God's favor towards us it is not a place where temporal punishment is remitted rather it is a place where our inclination towards sin (concupiscence) is finally and gradually eradicated as a demonstration of God's love for his elect.
Those who are Christ are the blessed ones to whom he does not impute sin, we are not penalized for sin.
Certainly, I do not intend to deny that it is painful, I only wish to deny that this pain is in any sense a punishment. I do not believe that temporal punishment is due to forgiven sin, I do not believe that we need to provide satisfaction for sin that is already forgiven, rather I believe that purgatory is entirely a work of love whereby God removes from us our sinful attractions.
Purgatory is for the removal of sinful appetites not for remitting the punishment due to sin.
Well the Catholic church teaches it is in part for the remission of temporal punishment due to forgiven sin I just do not believe that. I believe that God does not punish those to whom he favors i.e he doesn't punish those who love him due to his grace.
Nevertheless he needs to sanctify them because their sinful attachments are displeasing to him,but this is love not punishment
I believe I can elicit support for a nonpenal purgatory via the enchridion of st. Augustine.
Based solely on the authority of a simple reading of st. Augustine without trying to read doctrine into him I believe I can show that st. Augustine believed that purgatory was for the removal of sinful affections, and not for the remission of temporal punishment due to forgiven sin ... he does speak of temporary punishments but these punishments are due to our sinful nature to perfect it and are not therefore a matter of satisfaction and they are in no way due to forgiven sin.
What is sacred tradition save that which the faithful sense as being true and authoritative. You can assert that councils and Popes have their authority independent of the faithful, but history has shown for example that councils are not always authoritative as their have been robber councils. Further the fact that a manifestly heretical pope forfeits his office is proof that the ultimate authority of judgment resides with the faithful.
@Bernardoguiadonis you are mistaken in your definition of Sacred Tradition. Sacred Tradition is the Word of God, handed down from the Apostles to their successors and their successors and so on. It does not change, although it may be developed.
"I say...."
Maybe that "I" is the problem. Again, why is it so important to you to "prove" that your teaching is superior?
I grant that sacred tradition is God's revelation to us, I merely dispute the notion that all councils for example are part of sacred tradition, history teaches us that their are robber councils and it is up to the faithful to discern by their intuition the true tradition form the false.
We cannot take for granted that everything that is said to be part of tradition actually is, we must examine history and use our senses.
The church as mystical body cannot err, thus it is important that we see in history people who agree with out views. For while it is possible for God to reveal a new truth to an individual it is very unlikely.
A distinction must be made, while all members of the mystical body belong to the institutional church, not all members of the church remain attached to the mystical body, but only those to whom the grace of perseverance is given, and this is a remnant.
Well I would say that if you are in a state of grace that you are the church, but I respect your position. Thank you for taking the time to have a conversation with me.
@Bernardoguiadonis "Well I would say that if you are in a state of grace that you are the church". Christ did not say "You are Peter and on this rock I build your Church". The Church is Christ's.
maybe instead of spending so much time praying for dead people you should pray for discernment while reading your Bibles. and by the way their is no book called 2 Mach. 12:46 it sounds to me like your reading a different Bible than I am anyways... So maybe you should go pick up a new king james Bible pray ask God to show you truth then read it. Now I understand why Martin Luther got mad and started his own church this is video is an assumption based on misunderstood context. WOW!
@crxpunkb16, that book is not in your bible??? You should find out who took it out, and then find out why....AND then ask, what are they trying to hide from me???
@crxpunkb16 Your not the brightest bulb in the room are you?? Anybody knows that Mach is an abbreviation of the word Machabees.It's you who should pray for discernment and ask God to show you the truth! Purgatory does exist and one day ( like the rest of us), you may find out.
@crxpunkb16 Your not the brightest bulb in the room are you?? Anybody knows that Mach is an abbreviation of the word Machabees.It's you who should pray for discernment and ask God to show you the truth! Purgatory does exist and one day ( like the rest of us), you may find out.
@crxpunkb16 Your not the brightest bulb in the room are you?? Anybody knows that Mach is an abbreviation of the word Machabees.It's you who should pray for discernment and ask God to show you the truth! Purgatory does exist and one day ( like the rest of us), you may find out.
@crxpunkb16 You do realize that Martin Luther had this book, and a few others, removed from the Bible because they did not coincide with his new teachings, right? We are, indeed, reading a different Bible than you are. We are reading the whole Bible, untainted by Luther, with all its books in their original translations.
Are you aware that Protestant historian J.N.D. Kelly writes:
"It should be observed that the Old Testament thus admitted as authoritative in the Church was somewhat bulkier and more comprehensive than the Protestant Bible. It always included, though with varying degrees of recognition, the so-called apocrypha or deuterocanonical books The authors of the New Testament quoted freely from the Septuagint—over 300 times."
Are you aware that Luther, In his writings on the New Testament, wrote that the books of Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation were inferior to the rest, and they followed the certain, main books of the New Testament?
And finally, are you aware that Luther stated in his Commentary on St. John: "We are obliged to yield many things to the papist, that they possess the Word of God which we received from them, otherwise we should have known nothing at all about it."
@baldonebear i am unaware of all such things... but I am aware that on judgment day God will separate the sheep from the goats and it shows no evidence of some of the sheep having to wait longer than the other sheep it is written go and ye into the place i have prepared for thee and the goats unto fired damnation. the Machabees aside, which i did find a catholic bible but merely browsed due to time restraint... I find no evidence of such a price to pay that wasn't payed on Calvery.
Purgatory is not so much a place as it is a process, and it is all based on God's mercy and the price that Christ payed at Calvary. It is never about torture in any sense.
What type of church do you attend, i.e., what denomination, group (baptist, charismatic, independent, etc)?
Excellent presentation.
In the unlikely event that I should ever forget my sins while here on Earth, I am sure there will always be someone to remind me. (they do,often,believe me) I have heard, and do believe, that in the age to come, be it Purgatory or Heaven, we will forget our sins. So, if I am so lucky as to make it to Purgatory along with others, we won't be sitting around recounting sins, and we can all get along finally.
"as gold is tried in the fire"
TastetheTeardrops 1 month ago
i'M HAPPY TO HEAR THE nEW 0RDER sECT STILL TEACHES PERGATORY .
When I was a kid and they took over . The "New" "Nuns" said there was no more pergatory . This was to beginning of the end for New 0rderism . My dad called and was yelling at the "New limp wristed 'priest" who did not seem to care . They turned the wooden mean table around that next week . THAT WAS the end of modernism for Us . THANK YOU GOD
SAYYOURROSARY 3 months ago
Comment removed
Armahx 1 month ago
@stevesilvia rev17:9.. please dont comment back for it is meaningless.. it is clear that the evil one has terribly dimmed your understanding.
Hosannafication 4 months ago
@Hosannafication it seems you cannot answer any questions about truth.... Just answer my questions, that should be easy for someone like you.
stevesilvia 4 months ago
@Hosannafication you can't answer my questions, and you cannot provide proof to back up your accusations.... typical gossip and babble....
stevesilvia 4 months ago
@stevesilvia y dont u do yourself a favor and do a little research on these matters, your churchs macabre history speaks for itself, u cant deny the facts! And why does your church believe that its man made TRADITIONS are a final authority. Please study and analyze some more before u try and defend the unknown. Purgotory, idolatry, popes infalible, sacraments, indulgenses, etc etc this is all man made and not biblical.
Hosannafication 4 months ago
Y areRev17:9 have u ever studied your churchs macabre history? Their involvement in both world wars, the inquisition where it was a crime to read the bible, the conquest of latin america, the crusades among others. Not to mention the evil oath your beloved jesuit priest have to make. Your institutions goal is and always will be political world power cloaked Behind religion killing anyone who gets in its way.
Hosannafication 4 months ago
@stevesilvia may the God of Jacob enlighten your dim understanding and let u see that you have been deceived by man made doctrines. Traditions that your church makes up and have been passed down thru the ages.. just because you have been brought up with these beliefs doesnt make them right. I dont agree with you! Does that make me a heretic worthy of death? Your church has so much blood on its hands. She is drunk with the blood of the martyrs. Why cant u see that she is the whore of Rev18.
Hosannafication 4 months ago
@Hosannafication I don't recall saying you are a heretic worthy of death...as you say. and where was your church during the dark ages? If you can prove that the book of Rev 18 is speaking about the Catholic Faith, please show me where it says that in the bible about Catholics....other wise, you are just placing your own "words and prejudice" into the Scriptures.
stevesilvia 4 months ago
@Hosannafication
"Your church has so much blood on its hands. She is drunk with the blood of the martyrs. Why cant u see that she is the whore of Rev18"
Wolves enter into Christ's church and your response is that the gates of hell have prevailed against his church? Either you have faith that Jesus did not lie when he said his church would be guided by the HS or you don't.
I personally cannot see that Christ's church is the whore you claim she is because that is a lie provided by Satan.
MrChristianBeliever 3 months ago in playlist Christian Music
Purgotory is non biblical.. the only place were it speaks about purgotory is in 2 fairy tales 2:5-7
Hosannafication 4 months ago
@Hosannafication
"Purgotory is non biblical"
Suffering with Jesus is not biblical? You may want to read scripture again. Perhaps you don't know what Purgatory is.
MrChristianBeliever 3 months ago in playlist Christian Music
This has been flagged as spam show
Anyone who uses 1 Cor ch 3 to try point to purgatory has a very very, very, weak understanding of scripture. It is overstated that the Christians works are on trial here, the fire represents judgement, and if we read Revelations 19:12 , the fire is also used here when speaking metaphorically of Christ's eyes. He will see each Christians Work for what it is, wood, straw, etc. Gold etc.... Your video is null and should be void.
MMr7777 5 months ago
Comment removed
MMr7777 5 months ago
lesser sins not forgiven? Can you name a sin the Blood of Christ has not atoned for already? Galatians 2:21. Heb 10:18, His one sacrafice was enough to atone for all sin, hence the Lamb of God who takes Away the Sin of the world (not some sins) But All.1 Cor Ch 3 is talking about the Christians work's of what sort They are (hence works mentioned 7 times)The Christian is already saved dispite his works being burned up.Matt 5:21 Nothing to do with purgatory, but Christian living, no metaphors here
MMr7777 5 months ago
Purgatory is a demonic sham. /watch?v=L_XQQyuCHlE or ask yourself the question, what sins did the Lamb of God who takes Away the sins of the world not die for? 1 John 2;2
MMr7777 5 months ago
@MMr7777 more babble from a protestant....
stevesilvia 5 months ago
@stevesilvia I am not a "protestant" I am a Christian.. This verse has nothing to do with purgatory Rev 21:27, However read 1 Cor 6:11. Prayers for the dead, not in the Bible. A pardon from all sin however is offered to all 1 John 2:2. Maccabee, fine and nobel thought based on his own personal belief, not scriptural or according to the law of Moses.1 Mac 9:27 it states that there were no prophets at that time so Gods inspired word had ceased. Making these apocrypha books void.
MMr7777 5 months ago
@WorldBibleUnion454 What do those 2 verses have to do with Catholicism only? Protestants still follow that, at least MY church does.
fintalily 5 months ago
@WorldBibleUnion454
I like the hebrews 13 quote. I think I will put that one in my tool box for later use.
MrChristianBeliever 5 months ago
@stevesilvia I've heard the teaching of the unforgivable sin, but could you clarify that for me? I don't know what it means that we will be forgiven speaking against the Son, but not against the Holy Spirit. Is there an example or something to explain the difference? Thanks.
fintalily 5 months ago
@fintalily The Holy Spirit persuades and enables men to accept Christ and enjoy the saving benefits of the gospel but if anyone refuses to submit to the Spirit's gracious constraint, preferring to call good evil and evil good, how can the gospel avail for him? The deliberate refusal of the grace of God is the one sin which by its very nature is irremediable
stevesilvia 5 months ago
You Cathys simply made Purgatory up. Flat-out made it up. No idea as to why. It is not only a useless concept, it is offensive by implying that Christ was not sufficient. Tsk, tsk. You should be ashamed. You want some version of "time out"? Then you don't need to make ridiculous things up. Just go sit in the corner by yourself for a while until you learn how to behave. Then you can re-join the others.
JeffersonDinedAlone 6 months ago
@JeffersonDinedAlone We know that sin cannot be forgiven in Hell and there is not need for any sin to be forgiven once you are in Heaven. So, there must be some other state/age/place where sin CAN be forgiven after this age or this life. We call this Purgatory.
stevesilvia 6 months ago
@JeffersonDinedAlone Matthew 12:32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. Here Jesus implies that some sins will be forgiven in the “age to come.”
stevesilvia 6 months ago
@JeffersonDinedAlone We know that sin cannot be forgiven in Hell and there is not need for any sin to be forgiven once you are in Heaven. So, there must be some other state/age/place where sin CAN be forgiven after this age or this life. We call this Purgatory.
stevesilvia 6 months ago
@JeffersonDinedAlone
"You Cathys simply made Purgatory up. Flat-out made it up. No idea as to why. It is not only a useless concept, it is offensive by implying that Christ was not sufficient."
You really believe that billions of Catholics over the past 2000 years simply made Purgatory up for the heck of it? That doesn't even sound logical at all. Purgatory has nothing to do with Christ being sufficient. Shy do you think Purgatory implyies that Christ was not sufficient?
MrChristianBeliever 5 months ago
Thanks for your comments specially referring about false prophets. My brother I want to tell you one thing it is Bible and it's authority which is above any rule and traditions of the church. The Bible clearly talk about the interpretation of Bible cannot be given in the hands of One person. It is the blessing through the Holy Spirit. that is the reason why inspiration of the Bible is unique source of teaching and exhorting read 2Tim 3:15-17 & 2 Peter 1:20-21
TheShehzad4244 6 months ago
@TheShehzad4244 the bible did not exist for many years after Jesus died and rose. If Jesus had meant for the Christians to believe solely on the bible and it's interpretation, then what did the early Christians do before it and without it? Answer is they relied on the church and the oral traditions of those Christians before them...
stevesilvia 6 months ago
Dear Christian believer Listen what Jesus says in John 8:32 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." My brother search the Scriptures and be blessed .. The source of canonization of the Bible is given here below. web site answersingenesis org articles nab2/why-sixty-six
Be blessed
TheShehzad4244 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@TheShehzad4244
"Listen what Jesus says in John 8:32 32 and you will know the truth"
I have listened to him and that is why I am Catholic. Thank you for your concern.
I don't want to be rude but I do not need to preached to by someone who has lost their faith in Jesus. If you continue to try to convert me to your faith, you will only be met with treatment equal to what you give to me.
MrChristianBeliever 6 months ago
@TheShehzad4244
"The source of canonization of the Bible is given here...web site answersingenesis org"
Perhaps you believe Ken Ham is the only one who has been give authority to preach the gospel and maintain historical records of the church but I certainly do not.
Jesus gave us one church and he placed specific people in charge of it until he returns. Ken Ham is not one of them. It is easy to identify a false profit (Matthew 23:15).
Preach to unbelievers for they do not know Jesus.
MrChristianBeliever 6 months ago
@TheShehzad4244
"Maccabbess is not part of the canonized Bible"
The 7 deuterocanonical books cannonized by the Catholic church are:1 and 2 Maccabees, Sirach, Wisdom, Baruch, Tobit, and Judith.
What is your source for posting 16 books?
MrChristianBeliever 6 months ago
Maccabbess is not part of the canonized Bible
[. Books accepted as canonical by some Jews, and for most part by the Greek and Roman Catholic churches, but rejected by the Protestants, are Baruch, Tobit, Judith, Book of Wisdom, Song of the Three Children, History of Susanna, Bel and the Dragon, Prayer of Manasseh, Ecclesiasticus, 1 Esdras, 2 Esdras, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, 3 Maccabees, 4 Maccabees, 5 Maccabees
TheShehzad4244 6 months ago
@TheShehzad4244
"Maccabbess is not part of the canonized Bible"
At the Council of Rome in 382, the Church decided upon a canon of 46 Old Testament books and 27 in the New Testament. This decision was ratified by the councils at Hippo (393), Carthage (397, 419), II Nicea (787), Florence (1442), and Trent (1546).
There were only 7 books cannonized by the RCC not 16 that you posted. My source is Catholicdotcom. I would never post my own opinion without stating it is my opinion.
MrChristianBeliever 6 months ago
@stevesilvia and @tonganfoilole69, Read the parable about the rich man and lazarus in Luke 16: 19-31. The merciful, lovely, and kind jesus, told the rich man that now your are in TORMENT while lazarus is in comfort. There is only two options, to Go with God or to go against him. Same as to live peacefully forever or live in torment in flames for life. Those passages are a graphical description of hell.
MrUncleruckus1 6 months ago
I believe theirs a purgatory, cause when we die, we can't go straight to heaven cause we're all sinners and no 1 have a clean heart but jesus alone, so we can't go straight to heaven. If we don't go to hell, where do we go to cleanse our sins before enter heaven?...that's what telling us their is a purgatory, that's where we go and cleanse our sins before go to heaven. you can't go to heaven with unclean heart, remember that.
tonganfoilole69 6 months ago
@tonganfoilole69 Would you tell me the source of your believe in a purgatory.
TheShehzad4244 6 months ago
The Great Gulf and Abraham's Bosom (Luke 16:19-31) Abraham’s Bosom, paradise or to A church purgatory . ( the souls of the “righteous dead” up until Christ’s resurrection. It is now EMPTY because Christ took the “first fruits” with Him when he was raised (Luke 16:19-31; Acts 2:25-27; 2 Cor 12:2-4; Matt 27:52,53; 1 Cor 15:20; Eph 4:8-10). There is heaven and hell,thats it
ncast54 6 months ago
Comment removed
ncast54 6 months ago
"The blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin", and that blood is made available to us every week in Holy Mass while on earth; The blood is for our earthly existence, and for a time after death the Fire of Purgatory will cleanse us.
VictoryInJesus454 6 months ago
SInce even the elect die with certain attachments to sin, there must be a final purification for us before we enter into his Beatific Vision, and that place is Purgatory, where the Fire of God's Love burns away all that defiles us. Purgatory is the salvation proscess continued after death and is 100% the work of God.
VictoryInJesus454 6 months ago
Christ's Soul would descend to Abraham's Bosom to preach(1 Peter 3:19). But, He did not stay there(Acts 2:27). After the three days Christ took paradise and the saints to heaven with him. This is evident in Matthew 27:52. After Christ's resurrection paradise is referred to as being above as mentioned in 2 Corinthians 12:4.
ncast54 6 months ago
@ncast54
"What do you think?" 4
I also think our works will be tested in Abraham's Bosom. Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:10-15). I think that we will NOT get out until the last penny has been paid (Luke 12:59) for each work that did not pass the test.
MrChristianBeliever 6 months ago
@MrChristianBeliever ... Works will be tested is work theology and is not based on the grace of God. You have read all the Biblical references out of the context. Parables cannot be taken as literal whereas Parables are speaking the figurative speech.
TheShehzad4244 6 months ago
@TheShehzad4244
"You have read all the Biblical references out of the context."
Have I now? As a Catholic, I believe everything the Bible says! However, I don't a.gree with your personal interpretation of that passage.
the Bible is a Catholic book! The Catholic Church gave it to the world! Which means that there is nothing in the Bible that is contrary to anything in the Catholic Faith and there is nothing in the Catholic Faith contrary to anything in the Bible! Always remember that.
MrChristianBeliever 6 months ago
Comment removed
MrChristianBeliever 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@TheShehzad4244
"Blood of Jesus can only purifies the person from the sin"
Does the blood of Jesus cause us to be born again in water and spirit which is required for spiritual life? (John 3:3–6, 6:63, Ezekiel 36:25–27, Gal. 3:27, Rom. 6:4, 1 Cor. 12:13, 2 Cor. 5:17, Acts 2:38). The first birth is birth of the flesh (infants), but we need something more in order to have life.
Through baptism we are "born again" and made new creatures in Christ; through baptism our sins are forgiven.
MrChristianBeliever 6 months ago
Doctrine of Purgatory cannot be proved in any way trough canonized Christian Scripture. The prayer of St. Gertrude the great has no base from Biblical doctrinal point of view. Blood of Jesus can only purifies the person from the sin. If the masses can alternate the precious blood of Jesus Christ. Then it is a man made religion associated with the blood of Jesus which is undermining the atonement of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Then Jesus blood loses it's primary cause to wash the sin of sinner.
TheShehzad4244 6 months ago
Comment removed
MrChristianBeliever 6 months ago
The BIble is very clear on this subject, that when we die, we sleep. Over sixty times Bible writers, both OT and NT, compare death to sleep. In fact, so did Jesus. Read the story in John 11 where Jesus talks about how Lazurus is dead. He mentions Lazurus as "sleeping". Also notice in Pauls writing in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15:6,50. These are but a few of the many many references to death being "sleep. So according to the Catholic church teachings, we go to puratory to sleep. Hmmmm
ncast54 7 months ago
@ncast54
"Over sixty times Bible writers, both OT and NT, compare death to sleep...He mentions Lazurus as "sleeping". "
Was he asleep when the rich man said to Abraham: ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’. It does not make sense to me that the rich man would ask for a sleeping man to do this task.
Is it possible that you define sleep differently than scripture?
MrChristianBeliever 6 months ago
Lazarus found in 2 separate contexts, Lazarus of Bethany is the subject of a miracle recounted in the Gospel of John in which Jesus restores Lazarus to life after 4 days dead. Another Lazarus appears as a Rich Man, in the Gospel of Luke. I was referring to first Lazrus who was physical dead or sleeping. The parable of the 2nd Larzus was being tormented in hell. Its clear to me that there is an immediate consciousness after death and there is no holding place or Purgatory. What do you think?
ncast54 6 months ago
@ncast54
"What do you think?"
I think you are correct concerning Lazarus of Bethany but not of Lazarus being tormented in hell. Both Lazarus and the rich man died and went to hell, but Lazarus was comforted in Abraham’s bosom while the rich man was in a place of torment (Lk 16:19-31).
I think since they were both in hell but separated by a great chasm and only one was being tormented that there is a purgatory. A place where we will be made perfect before we enter heaven.
MrChristianBeliever 6 months ago
@MrChristianBeliever The rich man and Lazarus were both in hell is new doctrine. Could you tell me your source.
TheShehzad4244 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@TheShehzad4244
"The rich man and Lazarus were both in hell is new doctrine."
When I read the passage, I don't see the great chasm as being some where outside of hell but rather somewhere that those who are eternally tortured cannot traverse. Scripture tells us that Christ decended to hell to preach to the spirits there and we know that he did not preach to those who rejected Christ in life.
Where do you believe Abraham's Bosom (sheol or hades in Greek) is located?
MrChristianBeliever 6 months ago
@ncast54
"What do you think?" 2
I think Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him in Abraham's Bosmom (Purgatory). I also think this is the same place the thief on the cross went.
I think that this place is for purification of the just and not a place of condemnation. The place of condemnation is across the great chasm. Those in Purgatory were saved when they died.
That is what I think.
MrChristianBeliever 6 months ago
@ncast54
"What do you think?" 3
I also think it would be pointless to pray for those across the great chasm because they will forever be tormented and will never see the face of God. I think it is beneficial to pray for those in Abraham's Bosom because (2 Macc. 12:43–46) tells me so.
I think that the purification that takes place here is God's mercy (the Blood of Christ) washing us clean so we may enter heaven without any stain of sin.
That is what I think.
MrChristianBeliever 6 months ago
Paul said that to be absent from the body was to be present with the Lord (2nd Corinthians 5:6-9). He also explained that we had a spiritual body waiting on us in heaven. This body was made for heaven not this earth. Our spirit lives in a celestial body while it is in heaven in the presence of God. While on this earth we live in a terrestrial body or earthly body. When we die we go to be with God, not "Abraham’s Bosom." Judgement is fixed and final. Only by accepting Jesus can one be cleanse.
ncast54 6 months ago
@ncast54
"When we die we go to be with God, not "Abraham’s Bosom.""
I never said we go to be with Abraham's Bosom. I also did not ask what you think. Your comments about scripture are not requested or desired.
"Judgement is fixed and final."
That is what I said, those in Purgator have already been judged and thus they are saved. Did you ask me what I think in order to correct me so that you can prove you are correct or did you actually want to know what I think?
MrChristianBeliever 6 months ago
@ncast54 Even the word purgatory has not been used in the Bible itself. How you are referring it to purgatory.
TheShehzad4244 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Hmmm, never said that the word purgatory is in the bible. Christ's Soul would descend to Abraham's Bosom to preach(1 Peter 3:19). But, He did not stay there(Acts 2:27). After the three days Christ took paradise and the saints to heaven with him. This is evident in Matthew 27:52. After Christ's resurrection paradise is referred to as being above as mentioned in 2 Corinthians 12:4.
ncast54 6 months ago
Even though a man may die a saved man, he still, up until the time of his death, will have a certain attachment to sin; Purgatory is the salvation proscess continued for the elect after they have died.
WayOfTheMaster454 8 months ago
Comment removed
ncast54 6 months ago
@Stevesilvia, all over the bible the word dead means to be spiritially dead. In revelations 21:27 you forgot to say the whole verse, which also said:''Nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those names that are written in the lambs book of life. This clearly states that the believers in christ will enter heaven but the ones who dont will go to hell. In 2 mach it talks about the dead in spirit, for everyone is responsible for their own salvation.
MrUncleruckus1 9 months ago
@MrUncleruckus1, I didn't forget it....But here is what we believe... Revelation 22:14 "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city".
stevesilvia 9 months ago
It aslo means phsyical dead, fromm which Jesus did resurrected from. I agee the true believer will enter heaven, but it says nothing about purgatory. Christ's Soul would descend to Abraham's Bosom to preach(1 Peter 3:19). But, He did not stay there(Acts 2:27). After the three days Christ took paradise and the saints to heaven with him. Read Matthew 27:52. After Christ's resurrection paradise is referred to as being above as mentioned in 2 Corinthians 12:4.
ncast54 6 months ago
@MrChristianBeliever how did u cum 2 d conclusion dat I hate catholicism? U obviously dont ask questions 2 ur preists coz if u do, they will accuse u of losing faith or u have hate in ur heart just like what u did 2 me right? N obviously, u dont know d answer 2 my questions. Who would gonna tell u d answer? Also, if other denom preach trinity, I will not accept them also. U suddenly shift the topic to "Do I have hate or not?" If sum1 prooved ur wrong does dat mean he hate u? ur juz simply wrong.
alangname 9 months ago
if anyone can read d verse/s that says purgatory or just d sense of purgatory in d bible, I will accept catholicism. It is not in d bible, whats in d bible is when a man died he is already in d hands of god. when judgement day comes, they will be judged according what they did when they were alive. They go to heaven or hell. When d bible said "they are in the hands of god." D catholics say, "you see thats purgatory." Is it not safe and more convincing to say "Hands of god" instead of purgatory?
alangname 10 months ago
@alangname
"if anyone can read d verse/s that says purgatory or just d sense of purgatory in d bible, I will accept catholicism."
That is a lie. You will never accept Purgatory from scripture because it is clear you have a hatred for the CC. You accept the word Trinity which was first used the CC. I am most certain that you would not believe in the Trinity if you believed it was first used by the CC.
If another denomination described it, you would accept it simply because it is not CC
MrChristianBeliever 10 months ago
@alangname
"When d bible said "they are in the hands of god." D catholics say, "you see thats purgatory.""
That is not what the CC tells us. It is only what you want others to believe the CC tells us because of your hatred for the CC. You are transparent and every Catholic here can see straight through your straw man argument. You are a joke given that you think you have any idea what the CC teaches.
MrChristianBeliever 10 months ago
Acts 4:12, John 3:16, Hebrews 9:27, John 14:6, Isiah 53:5. Salvation comes from no one else, for their is no name given under heaven to men by which we must be saved. Purgatory is man made. The background music you played in this video is oxymoron to your belief!! The bible is clear, there is no forgiveness for sins without the shedding of blood. Your religion can't save you, only Jesus the Son of the Living God, the God of Abraham, Jacob, David, Isiah, etc..
The727evolution 1 year ago
@The727evolution
"Purgatory is man made."
So is Trinity and Bible and on and on. What is your point?
"Salvation comes from no one else, for their is no name given under heaven to men by which we must be saved."
Welcome to the Catholic church, why have you been lost for so long?
"Your religion can't save you, only Jesus the Son of the Living God"
What do you supposed Paul meant by "... so that I may by all means save some. (1 Cor 9:22)?
MrChristianBeliever 10 months ago
@MrChristianBeliever Dude don't contradict yourself. You dont need religion or denomination to be saved. Having a personal relationship with Jesus. Becoming catholic or Baptist cant saved you, only Jesus . You distort scripture for your own propaganda.
The727evolution 10 months ago
@The727evolution
"You dont need religion or denomination to be saved. Having a personal relationship with Jesus. Becoming catholic or Baptist cant saved you, only Jesus ."
You must not be able to read. I did not say that religion can save you. I did not say becoming Catholic will save you.
I simply asked you what Paul meant in 1 Cor 9:22 "... so that I may by all means save some."
I appologize for thinking you could read. I will not make that same mistake.
MrChristianBeliever 10 months ago
@MrChristianBeliever Excuse me Sir!! But please examine yourself before you judge others. Practice what you preach. You hypocrite, you Pharisee!!!
The727evolution 10 months ago
@The727evolution
"Excuse me Sir!! But please examine yourself before you judge others. Practice what you preach. You hypocrite, you Pharisee!!!"
How have I judged you? By saying you can't read? That appears to be a fact, not a judgement. If I am wrong, then I will admit it. You call me a hypocrite and Christ tells me I must ignore those who insult me. I will try to ignore you but I would also like you to justify your statement if you can.
Perhaps you heart is too hardened.
MrChristianBeliever 10 months ago
@The727evolution I agree with The727evolution. Religion teaches us about Christ. Those outside of religion, are in danger of creating God into their own understanding. Catechism with the first Christians, was the term given for the oral teaching of God. Religion is the bible study of the Word of God.. The belief in and worship of a personal God .
stevesilvia 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Acts 4:12, John 3:16, Hebrews 9:27, John 14:6, Isiah 53:5. Salvation comes from no one else, for their is no name given under heaven to men by which we must be saved. Purgatory is man made. The background music you played in this video is oxymoron to your belief!!
The727evolution 1 year ago
Act 4:12, John 3:16, Hebrews 9:27, John 14:6, Isiah 53:5. Salvation comes from no one else, for their is no name given under heaven to men by which we must be saved. Purgatory is man made. The background music you played in this video is oxymoron to your belief!!
The727evolution 1 year ago
Your whole belief on this is twisted, sin is sin. There is no lesser or greater sin. When a man dies he is judged in whatever state he is in. If your theory is true then i can be a rapist or killer and get prayed into heaven by others?
Twin069 1 year ago
@Twin069, remember the story of the people who brought a friend to see Jesus, but it was too crowed to get near Him? They ended up lowering him through the roof...But their friend didn't want to go in the first place... What did Jesus say to them?
stevesilvia 1 year ago
@Twin069 If you die in that state without asking for forgiveness, you can forget about heaven or purgatory altogether.
chocotaco9666 1 year ago
Since no man dies immaculate, but still a sinner attached to sin, we need the fire of Gods love to purge all spiritual impurites away, because "nothing unclean may enter heaven". While on earth "the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin (in the Eucharist), but after death there is no communion as in Church, but what is described in Corinthians: "our bad works will be burned up, but we are saved through FIRE".
AtomicMonster559 1 year ago
There is no Purgatory! When someone dies, they either go to heaven or hell. That doctrine is not in the Bible!
ILovestorms 1 year ago
@ILovestorms, we believe because the bible points to the reality of it...
stevesilvia 1 year ago
@ILovestorms Have you heard of a place called Gehenna? In the Bible, Jesus speakes of it alot.
YeshuaisYahweh1 1 year ago
@YeshuaisYahweh1 Yes, that is hell. That is in Matthew 5:22, 29 and 30. Several other passages in Matthew, as well.
ILovestorms 1 year ago
@ILovestorms Nope, Gehenna is NOT Hell. It is a temperory place that is nethier heaven nor hell. Learn your Hebrew and Judisam then come back.
YeshuaisYahweh1 1 year ago
we are holy and clean because of jesus and not by a freaking purgatory. JESUS is the way!
miksulder 1 year ago 2
@miksulder, we are human. The idea of purgatory is through out the bible. We are made clean because of Jesus, but the bible explains in Mathew 12:32 that some must be forgiven after death..
stevesilvia 1 year ago
@stevesilvia i see, forgive me
miksulder 1 year ago
So if an unbaptised baby dies it deserves to suffer in Purgatory unless God pardons it ? I don't fancy that kid's chances, God's human rights record is pretty sketchy. You ask "Can God save those who have not been saved yet?" Well of course he can, he's God, for God's sake!
Christians exist by their pathetic submission to God's will which distorts their reason and compassion. They are obsessed with sinning, punishment and live with permanent guilt. We should feel sorry for their children.
ColonelGaypenguin 1 year ago
"Cross of the Holy Father Benedict, the holy cross be my light, not the devil my guide I suggest it get away Satans vain things, evil only offer me, drink your poison yourself, the Holy Cross be my light"
mercis100 1 year ago
you can't use Machabees or any of the Apocrypha when u debate a protestant LOL
santanaramostarango 1 year ago 2
@santanaramostarango thank you. very well said!
claptonstratgreen1 1 year ago
@ 1.43 you cant pay for sins with money, only with repentance and acceptance of yeshua
@ 2.07 it means forgiveness on earth or in heaven.
claptonstratgreen1 1 year ago
@claptonstratgreen1, you seem to be rambling on and on but making no sense...1.43 says nothing about money...Here is a clue for you, money does not pay for sins...You can quote me on that. Where did you get your bible study from, a drug store? Your prejudice is clouding your ability to communicate.
stevesilvia 1 year ago
@stevesilvia the catholic church has a history of selling indulgences. and how is it that your popes change doctrines like underware? God and his law does not change
claptonstratgreen1 1 year ago
@claptonstratgreen1 Actually the Catholic Church has never changed its doctrines. She has held fast. That is why so many reject her for not approving modern views of contraception, homosexuality, etc. What she does change however are her disciplines. Do you know what the difference is?
stevesilvia 1 year ago
@stevesilvia really? are you sure about that? one pope said babies who died before they knew christ went to hell. Another said that they went to heaven. One pope said that limbo existed, another one said that limbo didnt exist
claptonstratgreen1 1 year ago
@claptonstratgreen1 the following is what the Catholic Church believes and teaches...As regards children who have died without baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"(CCC 1261) Again, show proof, not gossip...
stevesilvia 1 year ago
@stevesilvia no explanation of the changing of doctrine about limbo, or what about selling indulgences
claptonstratgreen1 1 year ago 2
@claptonstratgreen1, this may be difficult for you, but stay on one subject. The idea of a "limbo" was to try to explain what we didn't know. The updated explanation is much more clear. The doctrine is the same, the explanation now is much clearer. The doctrine is: one must be saved to get to heaven. The question is, can God save those who have not been saved yet? As regards children who have died without baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God.
stevesilvia 1 year ago
@claptonstratgreen1 - Catholic Church never sold indulgences. It was mostly a corrupted monk named Tutzel who did it. The church always condemned such actions.
Indulgences CAN NOT be sold.
mysteriumaenigma 1 year ago
@mysteriumaenigma they why are people told that they can pay sums of money to the catholic church, and that their loved ones can get out of purgatory and/or hell?
claptonstratgreen1 1 year ago
@claptonstratgreen1 - Can you show me where is that in the Catholic doctrine that says one can pay the church to get their loved ones soul out of purgatory?
Catholic doctrines are found in the catechism. Catechism is available online for everyone to read.
mysteriumaenigma 1 year ago
@mysteriumaenigma i can give you links of many catholic churches accepting monetary payments as payments for a loved ones sins
claptonstratgreen1 1 year ago
@claptonstratgreen1 - Show me in the Catholic church's doctrine where it says that indulgences can be bought to get one's loved one out of purgatory.
mysteriumaenigma 1 year ago
@mysteriumaenigma really? you sure about that? type in youtube dot com and put this behind it and see for yourself /watch?v=YvchQo1c2xU
claptonstratgreen1 1 year ago
@claptonstratgreen1 - I saw that video long time ago and watched it again now.
Exactly where in the video is it saying that indulgences can be bought?
The video is saying that for obtaining indulgences (3:10) "we must have a sincere conversion", we need to have "a constant change of heart", increasing in holiness, continually drawing closer and closer to God" If that is not happening at the bottom level then you will gain NOTHING by saying 100 rosary prayers or by acts of charity.
mysteriumaenigma 1 year ago
@.22 we are made clean by the sacrifice of christ, the belief of him and repentance of sin, not purgatory
@.28 The ancient religions before christianity prayed for their dead too, but their false
@37. thats doctrine from the pope and one thing ive noticed is that popes change their doctrines quite often :)
@1.07 read matthew 7:13-14
@1.35 and because the popes change the doctrines, and god is never changing, they got some explainging to do
claptonstratgreen1 1 year ago
You should all discuss, how credible is the Bible, the idea that Christ (God???) came and died for us (or had to), and the inconceivable idea of hell as a place of eternal suffering.
if the bible was to be regarded genuine (of God?), then tradition and purgatory would make sense....but it's such an impossible " IF" I feel....
enniopat 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
John 3:7 You Must Be Born Again, originalwriting.ie Use this book to share the gospel to unbelievers. Contains prophecy related topics concerning Israel and Christ. This book also speaks about spirit mediums and the false teaching of purgatory. Also covered are the scientific facts discovered in the bible long before modern science. This book, God willing, will help you win souls
YouMustBeBornAgain1 1 year ago
Al these verses are out of context. for example 1 Cor 15:22, In the disciples and apostle thinking "challenged by fire" or "trail by fire" is a testing of faith. Peter taught Paul this also. Read Paul's context in 1 Cor 3:13.
Example comparison, 1 Peter 1:7, That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ
Revelation 3:18 used same context
QuantumUni 1 year ago
@crxpunk16, & those who think like you: some thoughts
Jesus did not have to die...he forgave people during his life so therefore could God.
Did Judas betray Him into His destiny?
Forget about hell -a God of Love will not have that in His Universe (kingdom)!
Reason would demand purgatory:a place of education/development/preparation. Some would really need it!
About accepting Jesus,recall: "whatever you have done to one the least of my brethren you have done it to me"?
Love you neighbor for short!
enniopat 1 year ago
im tired of the catholic church making up false doctrines nit picking a few scriptures taking them out of context in order to burden those who are in need of true salvation by telling them they must obey the teachings of the church or else they might not receive the fullest rest when they die or have to wait or be tortured for sins that weren't cleansed and all this mumbo jumbo! I'm saved and know it and if you want to wait before you get it fine but i will not.
crxpunkb16 1 year ago
@crxpunkb16 The Protestants do this as there are over 21,000 different versions of Protestantism and many, many contradict each other.
I don't know if I'm saved and I will not untill I'm dead... I do my job and live my life to my best ability. You seem to be one of those know-it-alls!
atumbleweeding 1 year ago
@atumbleweeding You are right to say you don't know if your saved or will not know till you die. Neither will anyone who is not saved. But those who are saved would like to invite you to know by asking Jesus in your heart and to ask Him to forgive you of your sins. Jesus is at the door of your heart not the church building. And I'm not protestant I don't go to church. I don't believe in works bringing salvation, but Jesus offered eternal life to me and I accepted Him and will serve Him.
crxpunkb16 1 year ago
@crxpunkb16 Even the people like you who think they are "saved" really don't know. In my line of work I meet the biggest liars and hypocrites and many of them think they are "saved".
Where I come from I saw many children beat/tortured by communists for believeing in Christ, and to this day they still don't know if they are saved. Many are still my friends.
crxpunkb16... do not lie to me. I see your kind every day on my beat.
atumbleweeding 1 year ago
@crxpunkb16 PART 2....I also your kind in the old Romania!
atumbleweeding 1 year ago
SIN IS SIN there is no such thing as a "lessor sin" they are ALLL offenses to God. all this is doin is puttin works onto the beliver for salvation. JESUS DIED FOR THE ALL THE SINS OF THE WORLD NOT JUST THE REALLY BAD ONES ALL OF THEM. HE has forgiven the WORLD OF SIN ! To die in a "lessor sin" doesnt mean u will go to hell or purgatory cus ALL sins have been 4given PAST PRESENT AND FUTURE. Only sin thts unforgiven is to NOT accept CHRIST ! ANd thats the GOSPEL ! DNT ADD OR TAKE AWAY W/JESUS DID
jiller777 1 year ago
@jiller777 Amen jiller777 well put! If they would only weigh the scales they would see that purgatory is humanism in a nut shell. if they are right great they get into heaven quicker than others without works, good for them! but if they are wrong they could be guilty of taking away glory for Jesus paying their "purgatory sentence". So the question is do you serve God out of fear in order to escape hell or do you serve God because the Lamb is worthy of receiving His reward for His suffering?
crxpunkb16 1 year ago
Your bible is the catholic bible with extra books, not the standard Protestant bible
fushancc 1 year ago
Good to know Church History, but I wonder how vital it is.
Christians should always learn from Jesus.
First he saw that people had a false sense of religiosity. Observing laws without the spirit of the law. Second He became aware that there were too many laws and all needed to be summed up in a golden rule (love God and your neighbour..)
So I wonder about the usefulness of Church history, mre importantly if the laws can be reduced to love Christianity must accept other faiths.
enniopat 1 year ago
for those who may wish to ponder the problem, one either adopts a "reason" oriented approach and so incorporates traditions into their theology, and so the Bible is compromised (has to go), or one adheres strictly to the book but reason will dictate that such a reality cannot be, and again the Bible has to go...
of the two evils the latter is worse as it is even an affront to intelligence and reason. It is in fact more dogmatic and fascistic and to be feared and opposed(?)
enniopat 1 year ago
Your Pope Mr. Ratzinger is a Antichrist. The Roman Catholic Church is a false system invented by evil, greedy, diabolical men and demons, it is a front for the kingdom of Satan. It is the Whore of Babylon spoken of in Revelation 17. What ya think about that?
thirdeaglebookz 1 year ago
@Bernardoguaidonis, reason would dictate that a loving God cannot but love, educate and bring about universal development and goodness.
Sensible of the Catholic Church to have come up with purgatory and even other traditions such as the esteem towards Mary (Christ's mother), and the saints. On the one hand it's raised the status of women and on the other it has empowered individuals according to positive spiritual traits,but in the process has not scripture been sacrificed for reason?' wonder??
enniopat 1 year ago
I agree that their is a place/state of purification after death, but I think you err in believing that it is penal. Purgatory is a showing forth of God's favor towards us it is not a place where temporal punishment is remitted rather it is a place where our inclination towards sin (concupiscence) is finally and gradually eradicated as a demonstration of God's love for his elect.
Those who are Christ are the blessed ones to whom he does not impute sin, we are not penalized for sin.
Bernardoguiadonis 1 year ago
@Bernardoguiadonis
Interesting view, but in my experience, it is painful for humans to let go of sin.
hiswife2002 1 year ago
@hiswife2002
Certainly, I do not intend to deny that it is painful, I only wish to deny that this pain is in any sense a punishment. I do not believe that temporal punishment is due to forgiven sin, I do not believe that we need to provide satisfaction for sin that is already forgiven, rather I believe that purgatory is entirely a work of love whereby God removes from us our sinful attractions.
Purgatory is for the removal of sinful appetites not for remitting the punishment due to sin.
Bernardoguiadonis 1 year ago
@Bernardoguiadonis "Purgatory is for the removal of sinful appetites not for remitting the punishment due to sin. "
Sources?
hiswife2002 1 year ago
@hiswife2002
Well the Catholic church teaches it is in part for the remission of temporal punishment due to forgiven sin I just do not believe that. I believe that God does not punish those to whom he favors i.e he doesn't punish those who love him due to his grace.
Nevertheless he needs to sanctify them because their sinful attachments are displeasing to him,but this is love not punishment
I believe I can elicit support for a nonpenal purgatory via the enchridion of st. Augustine.
Bernardoguiadonis 1 year ago
@Bernardoguiadonis "I believe I can elicit support for a nonpenal purgatory via the enchridion of st. Augustine. "
Based on what?
I'm leery of a statement based on "I" .......
hiswife2002 1 year ago
@hiswife2002
Based solely on the authority of a simple reading of st. Augustine without trying to read doctrine into him I believe I can show that st. Augustine believed that purgatory was for the removal of sinful affections, and not for the remission of temporal punishment due to forgiven sin ... he does speak of temporary punishments but these punishments are due to our sinful nature to perfect it and are not therefore a matter of satisfaction and they are in no way due to forgiven sin.
Bernardoguiadonis 1 year ago
@Bernardoguiadonis St. Augustine, while a very influential and pious saint, does not hold the same authority as Sacred Tradition.
Why is it important to you to "prove" this issue?
hiswife2002 1 year ago
@hiswife2002
What is sacred tradition save that which the faithful sense as being true and authoritative. You can assert that councils and Popes have their authority independent of the faithful, but history has shown for example that councils are not always authoritative as their have been robber councils. Further the fact that a manifestly heretical pope forfeits his office is proof that the ultimate authority of judgment resides with the faithful.
I say that st. Augustine is authoritative
Bernardoguiadonis 1 year ago
@Bernardoguiadonis you are mistaken in your definition of Sacred Tradition. Sacred Tradition is the Word of God, handed down from the Apostles to their successors and their successors and so on. It does not change, although it may be developed.
"I say...."
Maybe that "I" is the problem. Again, why is it so important to you to "prove" that your teaching is superior?
hiswife2002 1 year ago
@hiswife2002
I grant that sacred tradition is God's revelation to us, I merely dispute the notion that all councils for example are part of sacred tradition, history teaches us that their are robber councils and it is up to the faithful to discern by their intuition the true tradition form the false.
We cannot take for granted that everything that is said to be part of tradition actually is, we must examine history and use our senses.
"The I is hateful" - Pascal
I try not to be self guiding
Bernardoguiadonis 1 year ago
@Bernardoguiadonis You say you try not to be self-guiding, yet you say the Church is not trustworthy. What else are you doing, then?
Again, still wondering why it is important to you to prove this point?
hiswife2002 1 year ago
The church as mystical body cannot err, thus it is important that we see in history people who agree with out views. For while it is possible for God to reveal a new truth to an individual it is very unlikely.
A distinction must be made, while all members of the mystical body belong to the institutional church, not all members of the church remain attached to the mystical body, but only those to whom the grace of perseverance is given, and this is a remnant.
Bernardoguiadonis 1 year ago
@Bernardoguiadonis The Church contains the truths and the teaching of Christ. She contains the sacraments.
I'll stick with The Church that Christ established. You go down whatever other path you choose.
I hope you find what you're looking for and I hope it does not lead you into heresy.
hiswife2002 1 year ago
@hiswife2002
Well I would say that if you are in a state of grace that you are the church, but I respect your position. Thank you for taking the time to have a conversation with me.
Peace be with you.
Bernardoguiadonis 1 year ago
@Bernardoguiadonis "Well I would say that if you are in a state of grace that you are the church". Christ did not say "You are Peter and on this rock I build your Church". The Church is Christ's.
"Thank you for taking the time...."
Ditto :)
hiswife2002 1 year ago
maybe instead of spending so much time praying for dead people you should pray for discernment while reading your Bibles. and by the way their is no book called 2 Mach. 12:46 it sounds to me like your reading a different Bible than I am anyways... So maybe you should go pick up a new king james Bible pray ask God to show you truth then read it. Now I understand why Martin Luther got mad and started his own church this is video is an assumption based on misunderstood context. WOW!
crxpunkb16 1 year ago
@crxpunkb16, that book is not in your bible??? You should find out who took it out, and then find out why....AND then ask, what are they trying to hide from me???
stevesilvia 1 year ago 2
@stevesilvia if i don't believe the teachings of the catholic church are sound doctrine then why would I read their Bible?
crxpunkb16 1 year ago
@crxpunkb16 Your not the brightest bulb in the room are you?? Anybody knows that Mach is an abbreviation of the word Machabees.It's you who should pray for discernment and ask God to show you the truth! Purgatory does exist and one day ( like the rest of us), you may find out.
trek2space 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@crxpunkb16 Your not the brightest bulb in the room are you?? Anybody knows that Mach is an abbreviation of the word Machabees.It's you who should pray for discernment and ask God to show you the truth! Purgatory does exist and one day ( like the rest of us), you may find out.
trek2space 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@crxpunkb16 Your not the brightest bulb in the room are you?? Anybody knows that Mach is an abbreviation of the word Machabees.It's you who should pray for discernment and ask God to show you the truth! Purgatory does exist and one day ( like the rest of us), you may find out.
trek2space 1 year ago
@crxpunkb16 You do realize that Martin Luther had this book, and a few others, removed from the Bible because they did not coincide with his new teachings, right? We are, indeed, reading a different Bible than you are. We are reading the whole Bible, untainted by Luther, with all its books in their original translations.
OneCatholic 1 year ago
@crxpunkb16
Are aware that Luther's translation of the bible contained 1&2 Macabees?
Are you aware that the original 1611 KJV contained them?
Are you aware that Judaism today renewed their celebration of Hanukkah based on these books?
Are you aware that it was in 1835 that the decision was made to remove them from Protestant bibles?
Are you aware that the LXX, the scriptures used by Christ and the Apostles, and those found in the temple, contained these books?
baldonebear 1 year ago
@crxpunkb16
Are you aware that Protestant historian J.N.D. Kelly writes:
"It should be observed that the Old Testament thus admitted as authoritative in the Church was somewhat bulkier and more comprehensive than the Protestant Bible. It always included, though with varying degrees of recognition, the so-called apocrypha or deuterocanonical books The authors of the New Testament quoted freely from the Septuagint—over 300 times."
baldonebear 1 year ago
@crxpunkb16
Are you aware that Luther, In his writings on the New Testament, wrote that the books of Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation were inferior to the rest, and they followed the certain, main books of the New Testament?
baldonebear 1 year ago
@crxpunkb16
And finally, are you aware that Luther stated in his Commentary on St. John: "We are obliged to yield many things to the papist, that they possess the Word of God which we received from them, otherwise we should have known nothing at all about it."
Are you aware?
baldonebear 1 year ago
@baldonebear i am unaware of all such things... but I am aware that on judgment day God will separate the sheep from the goats and it shows no evidence of some of the sheep having to wait longer than the other sheep it is written go and ye into the place i have prepared for thee and the goats unto fired damnation. the Machabees aside, which i did find a catholic bible but merely browsed due to time restraint... I find no evidence of such a price to pay that wasn't payed on Calvery.
crxpunkb16 1 year ago
@crxpunkb16
I appreciate your post.
Purgatory is not so much a place as it is a process, and it is all based on God's mercy and the price that Christ payed at Calvary. It is never about torture in any sense.
What type of church do you attend, i.e., what denomination, group (baptist, charismatic, independent, etc)?
baldonebear 1 year ago